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grailknight
25-07-2013, 18:48
Simple this one guys, are they any good and are there any specific tactics to get the best out of them ?

In_Fiction
25-07-2013, 18:57
The same question has been raised recently at Warhammer-Empire.com:

http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=46616.0

It seems with the low toughness, no save and high price they aren't worth it. I myself haven't used them, but the idea of a huge horde of them is tempting and something I want to do just because I have all the metal variants and want to paint them up.

DaemonReign
25-07-2013, 19:10
They're Unbreakable so can quite easily be used to tigh up flanks (or specific threats) with the reassurance that they'll stick around until hacked down to the last model.
Your ability to make use of their Unbreakable nature is what will ultimately decide whether they're Worth bringing or not.
Should probably be a Point or two cheaper,

IcedCrow
25-07-2013, 19:41
I've had to deal with flaggelents before. Typically preceded with "the internet says I should never use these..." as they hold me up for a turn or three and annoy me. They are there to hold things up. If you need a roadblock, that's your unit.

If you need your units to always make their points back, they are not your unit.

Steapa
25-07-2013, 20:07
I always took flagellants. Every game. With empires new list and options for 8th don't need to, but really they can **** someone off having a block that they HAVE to slaughter to the man. Can be a great tool for eliminating scary units from your meta

Lord Solar Plexus
26-07-2013, 05:49
They're so utter crap and weak that you can be reassured they and the enemy together will hack them down to the last man in no time. Since they lose models like no other unit in the game, they cannot fulfill the role of holding down any flank or stopping anything unless you pay 3-400 points, and then you could have taken a unit of Reichsguard or some archers or a Steam Tank instead.

For much the same reasons, they don't work well as an offensive tool except for highly tailored lists, sometimes. Frenzy on Ld 7 also means the need a babysitter; it's impossible for them to work alone in either role.

Belakor
26-07-2013, 09:01
They could do well enough in the Watchtower scenario.

I have some but they remind me of say Yhetees from OK - not bad but outshined by the other special choices.

Wesser
26-07-2013, 10:01
Nah they are a rock-paper-scissor unit

Totally useless against any kind of elves as they'll just get murdered, but against enemies with lower INI than them they are splendid. Think O&G, Undead (non-vampires), Ogres and Lizardmen.

Dreaded Units like Temple Guard or Mournfangs are in deep trouble against flaggies, and more than once I've had my guys murder entire units of mournfangs before they could even fiddle with their weapons.

The fact that they'll nearly always tend to be either free points or totally face-wreckers mean that most people shy away from them in all-comers lists, but unlike greatswords, state troops and knights they have the advantage of being one of the only units in the empire book that don't need babysitting by a hero of some kind

Lord Solar Plexus
26-07-2013, 11:39
They direly need the General and/or BSB close by. Ld 7 isn't hot, and they're frenzied. I'd easily take your Flagellants out of the game with 25 or 50 points.

Arnizipal
26-07-2013, 11:57
Since they lose models like no other unit in the game
Zombies?
Goblins?
Just about any type of swarm?

CommanderCax
26-07-2013, 12:20
They direly need the General and/or BSB close by. Ld 7 isn't hot, and they're frenzied. I'd easily take your Flagellants out of the game with 25 or 50 points.

Well, most of the Empire army needs to have the General and/or BSB close by and most Empire players tend to pay heed to that anyway.

Flagellants are absolutely fine in my opinion and a good choice against most “non-shooting” armies, besides that they are often underestimated. Two S 5 attacks (best in horde formation) maybe even with certain re-rolls from a Warrior Priest and supported by a Life wizard is nothing to frown on…

Belakor
26-07-2013, 13:18
Warrior Priest?

Sacrifice yes, but Warrior Priest? They are unbreakable.

Lord Solar Plexus
26-07-2013, 13:38
Zombies?
Goblins?
Just about any type of swarm?

I've never seen a swarm so I won't comment on those. I'm pretty certain a unit of 120 Goblins (or two of 60) and a unit of 90 Zombies that might crumble but can be raised (or one that is small and free) takes about a hundred years longer to die than 30 Flagellants.

Neither of these kills itself either, so my point stands. Nothing but the odd fringe unit is even close to them in terms of fragility.


Well, most of the Empire army needs to have the General and/or BSB close by and most Empire players tend to pay heed to that anyway.


How does that make Flagellants better?



Two S 5 attacks (best in horde formation) maybe even with certain re-rolls from a Warrior Priest and supported by a Life wizard is nothing to frown on…

Marauders can get 2 S5 attacks, and so can Swordmasters. Both units get multiple other benefits over Flagellants, and both units are rarely taken, just like Flagellants.

They cannot be joined by characters, so your premises are wrong anyways.

Support is one thing but once you assess the total value of all the various assets you're pouring into this unit to make it somehow work for a turn and then die regardless, become a whopping S3 and/or lose Frenzy - the wizard, the General, the BSB, the Warrior Priest -, and then look at what else you could do with all those points, namely buy half a dozen DGK, two STanks, three cannon, twice the number of Halberdiers or whatnot, they're stocks begin to dip considerably.

A horde of 60 Halberdiers with 600 points in characters in tow is vastly better simply because it has double the wounds.

Ramius4
26-07-2013, 13:48
I'm with Lord Solar Plexus on this one. There's nothing Flagellants do (other than Unbreakable itself) that other units in the Empire can't do just as well, or better, and more consistently.

If you really want to field them anyways, my advice is to deploy them near the center of your army so as to avoid being drawn away from the battle due to Frenzy (which is generally easy to do if they're way out on a flank).

Rake
26-07-2013, 14:56
I agree with the consensus. They can cause damage for their unit size, but at the points they come there are WAY better choices in whatever role you see fit to form them up in: roadblock, murder, main-line.

Commodus Leitdorf
26-07-2013, 15:04
A unit of 40 Flaggies in horde can hit like a ton of bricks, the catch being is that they cannot last long after the initial round of combat. They really REALLY need to break their opponent or they will get hammered. Against low initiative Elites or cheap plentiful hordes they smash them. Against anything else they are an expensive point sink. It doesn't help that they were moved to the special section either.

If they were still Rare you might see them more as it would be nice to have a Rare Unit that's not a warmachine...and lets face it the rule that let a Warrior Priest take one unit of Flaggies as core was only put into the last book to sell models and the fact that it's gone now is not a shock. So I don't believe we are ever going to get that back again.

Simply put, they need T4 back. If they had that, even with the sacrifice rule they would be useful. Right now they are just an expensive glass hammer unit that cannot compete with uor other choices.

Arnizipal
26-07-2013, 15:21
I've never seen a swarm so I won't comment on those. I'm pretty certain a unit of 120 Goblins (or two of 60) and a unit of 90 Zombies that might crumble but can be raised (or one that is small and free) takes about a hundred years longer to die than 30 Flagellants.

Neither of these kills itself either, so my point stands. Nothing but the odd fringe unit is even close to them in terms of fragility.
Zombies and Goblins are (far) more fragile than flagellants as they have worse stats.
Being more expensive does not make flagellants more fragile, just less efficient ;)

DaemonReign
26-07-2013, 16:28
I've seen Flagelants go up against Zombies and Goblins numerous times and the Flagelants have pretty much Always rocked in those match-ups.
Their damage-output and reliability (Unbreakable) make minced meat out of Zombies and they are likely to break Goblins rather quickly.
But then, my Empire-buddy dares to invest the Points into Flagelants to really make them a threat to be counted. You need lots of them and indeed that unit will invariably be 'more expensive' in comparison to the units it steamrolls over.
But there is a tactical advantage to be gained in shutting a part of the opponant's army that he might rely on for other Components of his list to work well. That said, Flaggies still appear a Point or two overcosted for what you reasonably get out of them, which makes them less-than-optimal given the other choices in the Empire book.

The role I've seen them excell in is in units of ~50 models horded deployed on the fringe of the battle just shutting down a flank (and surpricingly often even 'winning that flank' all by themselves since [I guess] opponant's underestimate what it takes to actually chew through a unit like that).

barjed
27-07-2013, 08:52
...

50 Flaggies is 600+ points and that's a huge amount of points for something that can be denied by a skilled opponent. Sure, they are scary if they get into the front of your big mainline unit but anyone with half a brain will easily prevent that.

Like Lord Solar Plexus said, they have Frenzy and Ld of 7. If they are deployed on a flank that usually means they are out of your General's Ld bubble. Park a Great Eagle in front of them and laugh as the horde tries to catch a chicken. It gets even worse if your opponent sports a Heavens mage or any kind of Ld bombs.

The other way to deal with them is to flank charge them with something agile and much cheaper than them. Phoenixes (Frostheart LOVES these guys; hell it could front charge them and laugh), Double Great Eagles, Chariots of any kind, Wood Elf Nobles on Great Eagles, Chimeras, Sphinxes and the list goes on and on. Even with your +3 CR you can be easily beaten in combat and then poof, your Frenzy is gone and you are stuck with an absolutely terribad unit. If your flankers can hold for another turn and you front charge with something more killy then you are SOL.


Zombies and Goblins are (far) more fragile than flagellants as they have worse stats.

You are forgetting that Flagellants inflict wounds on themselves, which makes them loose models pretty fast.

Flagellants are a terrible, terrible unit with some really nice models. Which is a shame.

The only half decent configuration of Flagellants that I can think of is a MSU approach with a handful of small (7 probably or 14) units, a general behind them (AL on War Altar) and a Shadow Wizard casting debuffs on anything that has the misfortune of being combo charged. If you want a horde of reliable Special infantry with Empire then the Greatswords are the way to go. No Frenzy but with +1WS, flat S5, 4+ AS, Stubborn, +1LD, an option for the Magic Banner AND being one point cheaper they are the superior choice especially when combined with character support (remember that Flagellants cannot be joined by any character because of their Unbreakable rule).

quizmaster
27-07-2013, 08:58
No. The 8th edition Empire book killed them (thanks Robin C.) To expensive, stupid altered special rules. Yes they are unbreakable and die in droves . But in my themed Sigmarite army I take 2 units of them and more foot sloggers and loose every game laughing out loud;):)

Wesser
27-07-2013, 09:24
I think those WHO badmouth flaggies need to give the rest of us an answer to how they deal with Plaguebearer pits, Mournfang cavalry or Crypt Horror hordes?

Okay maybe these aren't as great at slaughtering empire as the rather psychotic elf infantry, but still...what are you doing there?

barjed
27-07-2013, 09:44
I think those WHO badmouth flaggies need to give the rest of us an answer to how they deal with Plaguebearer pits, Mournfang cavalry or Crypt Horror hordes?

Okay maybe these aren't as great at slaughtering empire as the rather psychotic elf infantry, but still...what are you doing there?

This warrants a rather in-depth answer but since I have to leave for a blasted wedding in just a second, I'll keep it short.

Empire is a book that thrives on it's synergy between units. Everything is a mechanism in a bigger machine that when used properly wins a game. A single unit may not be that deadly but when combined with character support (Warrior Priests are the best support characters in the whole game bar none), artillery support, magic support, buff wagons and other units becomes a part of something that is truly strong. There is only one unit that goes against this philosophy and that's Demigryph Knights. They are capable of operating alone (within boundaries of reason, of couse), hit hard and are extremely difficult to kill. When supported they become monstrous.

Flagellant Warband is the dead last unit I would nominate to face MFC or Horrors. Supported DGK, focused artillery fire (Hellblaster with an Engineer will give those MFC nightmares), Steam Tanks and IC Knight (WS4, AS1+, S4/6 core unit!) buses are your answer to almost every threat you can think of. You are playing arguably the most versatile army in the whole game which means that you can utilize a list that will be strong in virtually any meta you can think of. It just happens that Flagellants along with Free Company are the two worst units in the whole book.

DaemonReign
27-07-2013, 16:46
Not disputing that they're overcosted. Don't really agree with Cruddace's revamp of them either.
Still Think their damage-output is a bit overlooked by some people in this thread.
I've seen them perform well, as stated, on the fringe of battles (sizes 4-6k) where they were deployed as counters to the opposition's flank-deniers. In those instances it's easier said than done for the opponant to bring in stuff to derail the Flaggies (despite their Frenzy) because it may well impact his overall strategy.

I wouldn't run them in the mainline.

Commodus Leitdorf
27-07-2013, 17:19
Not disputing that they're overcosted. Don't really agree with Cruddace's revamp of them either.
Still Think their damage-output is a bit overlooked by some people in this thread.


Hardly, Flagellants break face. However they ONLY break face and are REALLY useful against things that allow them to go first. Although I hate mathhammer, run the numbers against any unit with Greatweapons or Ini 2 or less vs Flagellants. Heck even against stuff with the same initiative. Flagellants kill stuff dead....the problem comes in the second round of combat. If they fail to break their opponent they just become a really expensive tar pit that's not very good at tar pitting...oh and they kill themselves too.

If they were 10 points or even if the Martyr was a one off rule where you do it and you get whatever benefit you manage for the remainder of the game, they would be more useful as they are. However right now, without T4, they just don't do as good a job when compared to things in the special section. Like Demigryphs or even Greatswords which is funny because in a one off match up Flagellants drop Greatswords like flies...but once the second round rolls around things change DRASTICALLY.

Daniel36
27-07-2013, 19:07
Awesome models, so that's why I have a horde, and I love them.
Also, they smash hard enough to provide for a fun experience.

I even have one as my avatar. He doesn't look like me but he certainly has the same expression.

Skywave
29-07-2013, 02:10
A question about them, do they loose their frenzy when they loose combat (because they will, usually on the second round of combat), even though they are unbreakable? I play mostly versus low ini armies and was considering getting a small unit of them (something around 21-28, 7-wide).

After playing a bit with my horde of Greatswords and always getting attacked first, I think that striking first versus Orcs and the like (hopefully with some re-rolls!) could have some potential for me!

barjed
29-07-2013, 07:16
A question about them, do they loose their frenzy when they loose combat (because they will, usually on the second round of combat), even though they are unbreakable? I play mostly versus low ini armies and was considering getting a small unit of them (something around 21-28, 7-wide).

After playing a bit with my horde of Greatswords and always getting attacked first, I think that striking first versus Orcs and the like (hopefully with some re-rolls!) could have some potential for me!

Yep, they do lose it.

Commodus Leitdorf
29-07-2013, 14:25
A question about them, do they loose their frenzy when they loose combat (because they will, usually on the second round of combat), even though they are unbreakable? I play mostly versus low ini armies and was considering getting a small unit of them (something around 21-28, 7-wide).

After playing a bit with my horde of Greatswords and always getting attacked first, I think that striking first versus Orcs and the like (hopefully with some re-rolls!) could have some potential for me!


Yes, they lose their Frenzy now, but if you plan on taking them against Orcs you should be fine. Flagellants can smash pretty much any orc unit...in the first round at least. Hopefully however that should be all you need, depending on ho much shooting your opponent brings/directs at them.

captain strongfist
29-07-2013, 15:16
As has been said already, against anything that will strike after them or even at the same time Fllagies are excellent! Against faster enemies not so much. However I always take mine, the benefit of an unbreakable unit is too good to give up regardless of quality. Also if your opponent has ever had them wipe out a prized unit then you'll have a psychological advantage. Plus they look cool!