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The Odor
30-07-2013, 21:01
Okay this came up in a thread about 9th (that is the number right? I am so out off the loop...) ed and how allegedly GW wants to make a "Spacemarine"-esque faction for Fantasy because "Hey it worked for 40K" and they would basically be Knighttemplars fighting chaos or somthing.

Now this is not to discuss if this is happening or why it should(n't) happen but rather how you would make it if it had to happen.
Whole new faction? Re-tooling an old one? Lets hear your take!


I would probably re-tool Brettonia for this (Which was suggested in the thread I saw it in) for a couple of reasons.
A: People in armour fighting "Evil"? Bretts already are and if I had to guess the next Brettonia book will contain some sort of heavy infantery.
B: Brettonia have been left behind and could definetly use something to make them a bit more central to the Warhammer plotline. Now this might be overdoing it but I always liked their fluff and they already have a lot of what is needed.

Geep
31-07-2013, 01:50
The problem with Brettonians being the 'Fantasy Space Marines' is that the biggest draw cards (IMO) for 40k Space Marines are-
1) They have heaps of options, both in terms of model choice and army list options. There are very few unit types that space marines can't get, and these gaps are easily plugged by FW or other space marine army allies.
2) I think more than half of 40K armies are Space Marines, and for the 'adventurous' to whom a colour change is not enough you can also pick spiky Space Marines or extra shiny Space Marines.

The above is a chicken/egg kind of situation- is it that these things make marines popular, or do marines get them because they are popular?

Brettonians, by comparison-
1) Have very restricted army lists. Lots of knights, but they're still knights. Lots of weak foot troops, but they're all weak foot troops. They have no blackpowder weapons, a single war engine, almost no monsters and nothing particularly weird and wacky.
2) Brettonians don't lend themselves well to being split into multiple factions. They just don't have the unit choices to pull it off- you can't turn Bretts into a gunline very easily. At most I could see a single alternate Brettonian list being made from the coastal villages, where they do have black powder and worship the god of the sea rather the lady of the lake.

You could, of course, completely rewrite Brettonians to make them fit this role, but the above points seem to me to be defining features of a Brettonian army. Change that and you may as well just add a new race.

Empire would fit as the 'Space Marines' of Fantasy quite well, as they have a large selection of units and well defined provinces (with specialties and rivalries).

lybban
31-07-2013, 06:49
I totally agree with empire being the space marines of fantasy if there would ever be such a terrible thing! Bretonnia... Not so much

MLP
31-07-2013, 07:07
I can't see the empire as the space marines of fantasy. They're not individually great it's all about the units and discipline on weaker troops.

Bretonnians however currently have saint like knights and extremely powerful character knights. It wouldn't take much of a change to really focus on the knights and have individual armies based on certain heraldry.

Marked_by_chaos
31-07-2013, 07:16
I can see the attraction for gw. The most viable solution is a revamp of empire, but it would be a major revamp.

Other factors that are attractive about space marines are that they are an elite human faction that requires relatively few models and gets a lot of ongoing attention.

This is almost the current polar opposite to empire. In fact the closest comparison is warriors of chaos in many ways, no doubt explaining why they are reportedly the best selling faction.

There is a glaring gap for an elite human "good guy" faction from a marketing perspective. Sadly it would also entail a pretty much ground up trashing of the fantasy background.

theJ
31-07-2013, 07:28
Well... there's a few other pros of marines; they're quick and easy to paint, they are forgiving to play, and they are individually powerful - something that is very appealing to identify with.
Bretonnians could have their rules retuned to allow for the last two - focus on the training and blessings each individual knight has, and make them less dependant on the charge. I could never see them not be a royal pain in the ass to paint, though...
Empire are less painful to paint, but they sure ain't "elite"... are they forgiving to play? I honestly don't know...
Another I've heard mentioned to be the "fantasy equivalent" to Space Marines are, believe it or not, the High Elves - elite army, great model support, big focus on mighty heroes, and the sworn protectors of the world. The only catch being that they're almost as horrible to paint as the bretonnians.

As for creating a brand new army to fit the "niché"... The obvious one that springs to my mind would be an army based around a crusade - featuring a healthy mix of Empire and Bretonnian heroes and elites(thus giving them good model support straight out of the gate), simple tabards replacing much of the heraldry would make them a lot easier to paint. Elite, versatile, flexible, potentially forgiving... damn near perfect.
I know I'd be tempted... :p

Senbei
31-07-2013, 07:53
As for creating a brand new army to fit the "niché"... The obvious one that springs to my mind would be an army based around a crusade - featuring a healthy mix of Empire and Bretonnian heroes and elites(thus giving them good model support straight out of the gate), simple tabards replacing much of the heraldry would make them a lot easier to paint. Elite, versatile, flexible, potentially forgiving... damn near perfect.
I know I'd be tempted... :p

It might also put the cat amongst the pigeons with those of a touchy, Islamic bent.

I could see them using Tilia or the Boarder Princes for something like this though.

Treg Almighty
31-07-2013, 08:01
Mantic are launching a faction at the moment that would tie into this idea perfectly. The Basileans I think they are called. Sort of the archetype that fantasy space marines would have where highly armoured elite troops are backed up by angels and the like.

Like others have said, the woc capture this idea quite well, but are obviously evil. A new faction would be a massive upheaval to the existing fluff though. Likewise, repurposing brets could work with less of a retcon but it would cause them to lose what makes them unique.

That being said, when I first started whfb as a young fella there was no faction which drew me in like space marines did for 40k so I would imagine that the idea appeals to those leading the strategic gw direction.

I would enjoy seeing the stereotypical good guys in whfb and the way I would do it would probably be to change the bret fluff but you'd have to be careful not to take away the elements that others have mentioned which makes them unique.

Wishing
31-07-2013, 08:16
I think that redesigning one of the existing human races for this purpose would be a terrible idea. A completely new faction could work though.

As others have said, they would have to be based on basically a good guy version of chaos warriors. Big, tough, heavily armoured humans with enclosed helmets so you don't have to paint lots of faces. And they would have to be really well designed visually and look really cool.

The most straightforward way of doing this that I see would be basically a fantasy version of Grey Knights. An elite monastic order, separate from any of the existing human nations, that have the blessing of some deity that makes them consider themselves the chosen ones to battle the forces of evil in the world. A "christian heaven with a dark twist" theme, like the Pandemonium Fortress in Diablo, would be very suitable, since both Empire and Bretonnia are very real world history based, and these guys would stand out by being much more mythology/fantasy based.

So yeah, probably very similar to the Mantic stuff being mentioned...

Belakor
31-07-2013, 09:08
There is no way I think that can work.

It is not just the Space Marine itself that makes it popular, it is guns in space.

Fantasy can never copy that.

zoggin-eck
31-07-2013, 09:49
This come up all the time. If GW thought it would work, they would have tried it by now.

For me, the fun of space marines is indeed the "space" part. The background, their origins and future, weapons and "look" all work together, as does the armies and overall setting around them.

Simply pushing knights in Warhammer makes no sense to me. Personally, I'd love more of a focus on individual knightly orders for Empire, which might be seen to some as a step in that direction.

For Bretonnia, they already have the Questing and Grail Knights. A bit more background (and an ace new plastic set!) for both would be sweet, but still nothing like a fantasy Marine equivalent.

Yowzo
31-07-2013, 11:10
I can't see the empire as the space marines of fantasy. They're not individually great it's all about the units and discipline on weaker troops.

Empire's 40K equivalent should be Imperial Guard.

As per marines (tough, highly armoured, elite, etc.) the closest concept would be WoC.... except on the other side.

So yeah, some kind or Nordic righteous faction who would get powers similar to WoC but from the "good" gods.

Wishing
31-07-2013, 11:17
It is not just the Space Marine itself that makes it popular, it is guns in space.

Fantasy can never copy that.

I dunno, I think people would respond just as positively to über-knights with big swords as they do to über-knights with big guns. Swords are cool.

Yowzo
31-07-2013, 11:28
I dunno, I think people would respond just as positively to über-knights with big swords as they do to über-knights with big guns. Swords are cool.

So right. Just look at the following WoC have.

Sureshot05
31-07-2013, 11:30
Brettonians could be retooled to this, but it would destroy the existing Brettonian concept. Redefining the knightly orders in the Empire into a chapter esque organisation? Possible. Bringing in a new faction, also possible. Trouble is that simply making a heavy armoured fantasy knight (not matter how distinct) into a super warrior will not really fix the problem in my mind. So a faction of super knights in the warhammer world might draw some in, but I don't think it would be enough to create a space marine faction. It just wouldn't be distinct enough. A set of heroic knights fighting evil. Really is Brettonia. Trouble is that they haven't really found a look for Brettonia that is unique and sells. It's just knights. An Arch-type of fantasy. What is unique model wise to draw people in? If they go too crazy with the armour, they start to look sci fi and spoil the fantasy look. I think it's not a case of "who should be warhammer's space marines". More a case of "what would warhammers space marines look like and what would be the draw?"

Wishing
31-07-2013, 11:53
A set of heroic knights fighting evil. Really is Brettonia.

I don't really agree with this completely. Bretonnia to me is "french/arthurian/medieval knightly cavalry". Because they are so historically based, I envision Bretonnian armies as being meant to fight other medieval armies, a la historical wargaming, not fighting "evil".

"Evil", as in Chaos and daemons and stuff, is a thoroughly fantasy idea, and thus would be much more suited to having a more thoroughly fantasy faction - such as heavenly super-knights on foot - to be dedicated to fighting them, rather than a medieval historical army. In my view.

barjed
31-07-2013, 12:00
Empire's 40K equivalent should be Imperial Guard.

This. Empire is nothing like Spess Marines. Instead both fantasy Germans and space Russians have a strong theme of ordinary men facing extraordinary enemies. Strength in numbers, camaraderie (or sheer terror in case of IG) and technology. This is polar opposite of Marines, who fear nothing, hate everything and are devoid of most what makes a human human. You also have to remember that SM are full of Roman/Nazi stuff which really does not exist in Empire.

Bretonnians, while similar in some concepts ('my faith is my shield!') are also quite different in others.

I think Fantasy is, in general, much more human in it's depiction of various factions than 40k. Also I find the 'good' and 'evil' themes much more clear and visible in Fantasy.

Lordsaradain
31-07-2013, 12:30
I'd say that Chaos Warriors are the closest thing you will get to space marines in WHFB. And even then it's not very close.

Belakor
31-07-2013, 12:33
So right. Just look at the following WoC have.

They are almost abmyssal compared to the Space Marine following.

ashc
31-07-2013, 12:39
I think GW would love a space marine equivalent with the sales that could come along with it for 40k.

Difficult to find one though.

BigbyWolf
31-07-2013, 12:49
Marine equivalents should be heavily armoured, musclebound, highly skilled warriors. Easy to paint and relatively low model count?

Sounds like Chaos Warriors to me.

But seriously, 40K already suffers from having an over-abundance of an army type. I wouldn’t want the same to be true for Fantasy.

Yowzo
31-07-2013, 12:53
They are almost abmyssal compared to the Space Marine following.

I obviously meant within the WHFB community.

Belakor
31-07-2013, 12:59
I obviously meant within the WHFB community.

Yeah I know, and unfortunately that seems not to be enough.

Memnos
31-07-2013, 13:13
If you're going to do a Marine equivalent, resurrect Tilea as a faction and go for a Roman look.

Large, Romanesque and angry super-men. I'd buy 'em.

Theocracity
31-07-2013, 14:12
I think Bretonnians could work as a 'Fantasy space marines' sort of army, but in order to do so you'd have to get rid of a lot of what people associate with space marines. Whether that's worth it would be the question.

I think you could have units of heavily-armored foot based knights who organize themselves into small groups with particular sets of vows to fight evil or protect good. That fits well within the Bretonnian wheelhouse; the only difference is whether or not they're mounted. It would also fit the basic function of Marines within the setting (heavily armored shock troops with vows of purity) without bringing in all of the Astartes baggage.

And while the current Bretonnians fit a historical theme, I think adding in a bit more of St. George vs the Dragon would help the association.

Gerod253
31-07-2013, 15:27
I have to agree. Brets would be the best already existing faction for this. All you'd really have to do is take the 'Knights of the Round Table" vibe and ramp it up until its' over the top. Add in a healthy dose of St George as well as more bits and pieces to turn them into the Knights in Shining Armor from our childhood fairy tails and I think you'd have a winner. We wouldn't even need to lose the current units. Just add in Grail and Questing Knights on foot as unit options, make them on par with Chaos Warriors stat wise, and emphasis the Vows.

I know that I'd collect an elite human infantry army like this in a heartbeat.

As for the look of the models, how about heavy blessed armor with huge plates? Or just really epic chainmail with flowing surcoats and capes. Give them huge swords and heavy shields where we can paint our own heraldry and you're good to go. (Edit to Add: Also, put them on the 25mm square bases so that you have room for bulkier models.)

venus_redscar
31-07-2013, 16:35
Something lost in this thread about the Space Marines. They are also stupid easy to paint. A gamer not focused on painting could just take a spray can, fire it at his troops, and then maybe add some details later. Not many fantasy armies have the completely covered in armor look that Space Marines have. And they are bigger too, so there is less small detail on the models, which if painted over loses their entire look. In fact, as the armies keep getting updated, they all have more and more little bits to paint. The simple painting of Space Marines also feeds into the younger players GW goes for.

Theocracity
31-07-2013, 16:42
Something lost in this thread about the Space Marines. They are also stupid easy to paint. A gamer not focused on painting could just take a spray can, fire it at his troops, and then maybe add some details later. Not many fantasy armies have the completely covered in armor look that Space Marines have. And they are bigger too, so there is less small detail on the models, which if painted over loses their entire look. In fact, as the armies keep getting updated, they all have more and more little bits to paint. The simple painting of Space Marines also feeds into the younger players GW goes for.

There is a lot about the popularity of Space Marines that doesn't translate well to Fantasy - ease of painting is certainly one of them.

That being said it might not be too hard if they do unmounted Bretonnians as a marine-like unit. Half of the difficulty of painting Bretonnians is all the heraldry on the barding and the banners, as well as the flesh tones on the horses. Unmounted, armored warriors could potentially be painted in just metallic tones by beginners.

Edit: A flight of fancy prompted me to say to myself "what it Ogres are actually the Space Marines of fantasy?" While this is obviously wrong for many reasons, it did make me want to model up a unit of Ironguts in blue armor and name them the Eatramarines, led by Chapter-Tyrant Calgulp ;).

MLP
31-07-2013, 19:11
Edit: A flight of fancy prompted me to say to myself "what it Ogres are actually the Space Marines of fantasy?" While this is obviously wrong for many reasons, it did make me want to model up a unit of Ironguts in blue armor and name them the Eatramarines, led by Chapter-Tyrant Calgulp ;).

Yes! Amazing idea.

Seriously though you may be right about ogres. Small model count, relatively easy to paint(spray skin colour, pick out metallic and leather detailing, wash) and individually powerful.

Belakor
31-07-2013, 19:50
Unless you put bolters in the hands of Ogres, and more bolts on their forehead, it won't help.

ashc
31-07-2013, 20:01
For anyone thinking 'holy paladin' type style is an option, look no further than the Basileans (http://www.manticgames.com/Shop-Home/Kings-of-War/Basilea.html).

Although I'll be honest, I don't see them hitting the heights of space marine popularity, even if they were made by GW.

theunwantedbeing
31-07-2013, 20:40
There's no place in Fantasy for anything resembling the popularity of Space Marines for 40k.

Warriors of Chaos are as close as you'll get though, at least ruleswise and visually.

Torga_DW
31-07-2013, 22:57
I always thought the closest marine analogy in fantasy was chaos warriors (lacking ranged weapons of course), or dwarfs (lacking speed and 1 point of strength, but having the ranged weapons). I guess if gw made such an army, would that mean the game would move towards 40k where most armies are marines?

Draquenoire
31-07-2013, 23:20
Warhammer Armies: Knightly Orders. Most everyone in the army would be a knight. And most orders in The Empire are templars of Sigmar, the Warrior God and patron of The Empire (not so dissimilar to Imperium/Emperor). So we have low model count army that's easy to paint with no real need to blow up fantasy background. Seems easy enough.

Wishing
31-07-2013, 23:33
Something lost in this thread about the Space Marines. They are also stupid easy to paint.

Not lost, I mentioned it at least. :)

Litcheur
31-07-2013, 23:46
Okay this came up in a thread about 9th (that is the number right? I am so out off the loop...) ed and how allegedly GW wants to make a "Spacemarine"-esque faction for Fantasy because "Hey it worked for 40K" and they would basically be Knighttemplars fighting chaos or somthing.

Now this is not to discuss if this is happening or why it should(n't) happen but rather how you would make it if it had to happen.
Whole new faction? Re-tooling an old one? Lets hear your take!


I would probably re-tool Brettonia for this (Which was suggested in the thread I saw it in) for a couple of reasons.
A: People in armour fighting "Evil"? Bretts already are and if I had to guess the next Brettonia book will contain some sort of heavy infantery.
B: Brettonia have been left behind and could definetly use something to make them a bit more central to the Warhammer plotline. Now this might be overdoing it but I always liked their fluff and they already have a lot of what is needed.
You can make a faction of Warriors Of The Bright Holy Light And The Shiny Blessed Order (WOTBHLATSBO). :D

The WOTBHLATSBO would probably be an elite army, and each WOTBHLATSBO should be able to fight its Chaos counterpart, so characteristics would be pretty high, but you want to keep the cost moderate because they are WOTBHLATSBO.

The WOTBHLATSBO have lots of good equipment : WOTBHLATSBO purebreed warhorses should be cheaper than brets', WOTBHLATSBO artillery should be more reliable and cheaper than dwarves' and WOTBHLATSBO bowmen should be able to fight decently against dedicated close combat unit. Because that's how the Space Marines work, after all. Flamers and meltaguns are the signature weapons of the Sisters, and theirs are mor expensive than the Marines'. And Devastators are definitely capable to handle their own in close combat.
WOTBHLATSBO are of course totally immune to psychology (or stubborn), and WOTBHLATSBO should be able to split their units at will.

WOTBHLATSBO would come in lots of flavour :

Classic colors :
- Light Blue, the mighty warriors of "we're hairy and savage, but civilised, please".
- Red, the wine-mighty wine-warriors of wine-honour. They're all wine-brothers.
- Dark Green, the emo warriors.
- Marine blue, the mighty ultrawarriors.
- Grey, the übermighty überultrawarriors.

Unchaos extra colors :
- Crimson, the mighty warriors of peace and love.
- Blue, the mighty warriors of order.
- Light Green, the mighty warriors of cleanliness.
- Pink, the mighty warriors of courtly love and chastity.

However, I strongly advise against the massacre use of Bretonnia. Brets do not have über-characteristics, they are not an army for beginners, they are hard to paint, difficult to handle, have close to no hitting power after the charge and given how they treat the lowborns, they are not really Mary Sues material. :o

Given the Fantasy lore, where there is good and there is evil (and not "we're all evil and doomed"), the WOTBHLATSBO would be a concept like "I'm the Ultimate Mary Sue, I incarnate the Ultimate Good, I fight evil and I'm Ultimately better than you".
One WHFB faction already has the spirit but not the guts. You just have to take high elves and put them on steroids to create higher elves. :D

Honestly, I would be bitterly disappointed if there was some kind of ubiquitous "Space Marine" faction in WHFB. Thank God, there is no such thing as a MEQ concept in WHFB, because the very existence of this concept says a lot about 40k's meta. I would be even more disappointed if they altered the bretonnian faction to build such a shallow concept.

PrehistoricUFO
01-08-2013, 00:06
WoC seem to be the SM equivalent for Fantasy in terms of popularity. Every single time I'm in a GW, at least two armies of WoC are kicking about either being played or painted/modeled. I have yet to see a Lizardmen army in public ever, aside from mine. :(

drmarco
01-08-2013, 00:34
Actually, if anyone would make this work, it's witch-hunters. Basically have a witch-hunter cadré of paladin-alikes, called upon to deal with the army-sized threats individual witch-hunter parties can't handle.

Call them 'Shadow-guard'.

Port in the iconic heraldry, give each order a suitable backstory, and have them equipped with 'tithes and honoured relics', from each of the 'good' races...perhaps even have them as three or four orders, all sharing common stats/superior baseline gear but theme the 'chapter division' as each liaison to the existing races. One order liaison to elves, who's 'chapter image' is to be the order with more magic bling. One order liaison to the dwarves...this one has the same common theme/armour, but has more black powder weaponry (like a true fantasy marine!). A third could be more generalised, and liaison to the Empire...perhaps gifted with more monster support from the Emperor's menagerie. The bretonnian linked order could perhaps be more 'white scar/ravenwing' like, and specialise in mounted variants that deploy rapidly...

'After the storms of magic receded, the toll was steep. The races of man, dwarf and elf reeled at their losses. Ambassadors from the various lands ravaged by the chaotic incursions met in secret, fearful of reprisal, dissension among their people's and the everpresent risk of spies and cultists in their midst.

When the conclaves departed a select few remained to effect the formation of the holy orders, each sworn to prepare to stand against future incursions; training, meditating and studying...trained by elven swordmasters...armed and armoured from the dwarves forges...sons of the Empire, Bretonnia, Tilea, Araby, The Border Princes, Cathay and beyond putting aside their old loyalties to defend what tattered hope remained in the old world...'

The Space Marine 'specialty' is to be the 'jack of all trades'. By establishing the new faction as 'knights +', you could have the remit of the Empire's witch hunters, the martial prowess of the Elves, and the superior gear that the dwarves could supply. They would have increased stats more akin to chaos warriors, and the nature of their 'united nations/rainbow six/special forces' creation gives them immediate links to the existing races of 'good', with the agenda of standing against the forces if discord...

Again, stick to simple imagery that keeps the orders distinct from standard knights (as mentioned, tabards and distinctive enclosed helms) and allow them one core troop choice from any other faction to represent them rendering aid to the factions involved in their inception and watch as everyone with a 'good guy' army picks up a book and a few units...

This could work so easily.

M

RanaldLoec
01-08-2013, 01:41
Part of my soul has withered and died after reading the thread title.

Should this ever look like a possibility I will create an "occupy Lenton" camp.

Stop washing, wear clothes sewn together from hemp and chant Antidisestablishmentarianism type slogans at GW management.

Eventually the local fuzz will move in to disassemble the camp and I will be photographed running around in clogs while fighting off police public order serials with a rolled up Guardian newspaper.

I'm against this idea if I wasn't clear!

Gerod253
01-08-2013, 03:08
Honestly, I can't really see the problem with an elite infantry and cavalry army of Holy Knights. We have several varieties of Chaos including actual daemons. Why not allow people to play a faction diametrically opposed to the daemons. Empire represent the common man and technology and is filled with stories of how weak men are and how easily they succome to chaos. Brets are supposed to be shinning lights of chivalry, but they are currently painted as snobbish nobles who stand upon the backs of their serfs. Neither one serves as an example of the 'best' that man can be.

High Elves may be painted as a major force for good, but they are still Elves and not many of the average 'Little Timmys' see elves as awesome. Same with Lizardmen. Both are awesome armies, but they have a limited range of appeal since they aren't 'human' and thus the average kid will find them difficult to relate to upon first glance.

This is where a "Knights of Order" book could come in. Make them those perfect Big Darn Heroes that kids like to see and GW's target audience will eat it up. Keep the costs down and parents would be more willing to shell out for a small force. The kid gets to build an army, and the parents feel good that their child is being a 'hero' instead of worrying what it means that he is really into daemons or necromancy.

I see it as a win/win really. The Fluff really doesn't stand in the way since GW have already shown that they are willing to "expand' their fluff in widely different directions then previous editions.

Theocracity
01-08-2013, 04:05
I really don't think there would be a need to create a new faction for this. Sure, Bretonnians wouldn't fit as they exist now. But current Bretonnians are also in need of fresh ideas to expand their themes and versatility, due to the age of their codex. They have plenty of room to add more of a paladin theme.

Litcheur
01-08-2013, 11:49
I really don't think there would be a need to create a new faction for this. Sure, Bretonnians wouldn't fit as they exist now. But current Bretonnians are also in need of fresh ideas to expand their themes and versatility, due to the age of their codex. They have plenty of room to add more of a paladin theme.
You *may* want to add knights on foot, but that's all. Brets don't need loads of silly units.

Horace35
01-08-2013, 12:17
I remember seeing the quote about Space Marines for fantasy but was it inferring a new race?

I took it as something would be made to be the posterboy for fantasy the way Space Marines are for 40k

Maybe someone with a better memory can chip in

Theocracity
01-08-2013, 12:38
You *may* want to add knights on foot, but that's all. Brets don't need loads of silly units.

While I agree, that's never stopped GW before ;).

Wallack
01-08-2013, 12:43
I would take Warriors of Chaos and just change the name of the things.

Would name them Warriors of Light or Warriors of Order or Loyal Warriors of the Light and Order in the Shinning Sun of Summer or whatever you want.

Then I would just change names of everything and descriptions of everything to create the same army, but a different one, quick examples:

Khorne would be, for example, Tyr.
Tzeentch for example Thor.
Nurgle maybe Loki.
Slaanesh would be Forseti.

That's an example with some Nordic Gods, now the marks:

Mark of Tyr: gives fanaticism, the same as frenzy but with a good/light description.
Mark of Thor: the powers of thunder gives you blah blah blah a ward save.
Mark of Loki: gives you the rule Unpredictable (harder to hit)
Mark of Forseti: you are blessed with blah blah blah ...

And that's just the beginning. I think the hardest part would be to select 4 gods of light or order (I would go for forgotten realms or dungeons and dragon gods for the variety). Then is just change names and names after all (and models of course).

Skullcrushers of Khorne -> Zealots of Tyr. They could ride armored bears for example.

There would be everything, from humans blessed by the gods (marauders and warriors, marauders could be militia and warriors paladins) to celestial messengers like angels (daemon prince) something like that.

I think would be easy to write the book and also funny, is just translating all the dark and bad words to light and good words from the WoC books.

ashc
01-08-2013, 13:08
I personally don't think paladins of light have the same appeal as space marines. The great thing about marines is that they can bee whatever you want them to be.

Theocracity
01-08-2013, 13:22
I personally don't think paladins of light have the same appeal as space marines. The great thing about marines is that they can bee whatever you want them to be.

Yeah - the essential problem with the "Space Marines in Fantasy" concept is that Space Marines are popular for a lot of different reasons, many of which are not compatible with Fantasy. Once you start removing those elements, you get farther away from the whole point of the endeavor.

Lath-rael
01-08-2013, 15:55
Nippon comes to mind, with all that samurai-ninja hype.

ashc
01-08-2013, 16:21
Nippon comes to mind, with all that samurai-ninja hype.

Not as popular as some people think. Its very niche that, and would be going against the point that marines can be anything you like.

Belakor
01-08-2013, 17:15
Not as popular as some people think. Its very niche that, and would be going against the point that marines can be anything you like.

Also Space Marine are humans WITH am overdose of power juice and BFGs!

Anyone who have played Quake knows what I am talking about.

Col. Tartleton
01-08-2013, 18:02
The problem isn't that there isn't a Space Marines faction that dominates fantasy. That is in fact a problem with 40k not a problem with WHFB. The problem is that people aren't buying enough WHFB stuff to match 40k.

To fix that they need to make more focus on fantasy as a whole.

If the fantasy game from Creative Assembly is a hit, whatever it may be, that will boost sales. If Warhammer Forge gets more stuff out, that will boost sales. If they release more and better and bigger stuff, if they lower their prices or at least provide incentive bulk purchases with discounts.

If they write a great 9th edition book that really shakes up the game and requires a rethink from everyone, that could boost sales.

Bingo the Fun Monkey
02-08-2013, 05:29
Bring back the Gods of Law. Warriors of Law.

Turgol
02-08-2013, 12:33
At first I thought this would be awful, but I have given it a couple of thoughts and could perfectly work.

Let´s say: Warhammer Armies: Templar Orders.
Fluff: The secret project. During the reign of Karl Franz´s father, a new chaos incursion was foreseen in the Empire, Bretonnia, Ulthuan. Even Dwarven Runemasters in Karaz a Karak could literally feel the raw power of Chaos accumulating. At someone´s advise (say Teclis), a Council was formed to address the prospect of Chaos growing stronger and the rumours in the south of the old name of Nagash. The Council was formed by the King of Bretonia, the Emperor of the Empire, the Phoenix King and the High King of Karaz a Karak. The Council concluded three things: the war against Chaos could be won if it was to be seen as something literally outside of imperial politics of all factions, making it unable to be manipulated by lower nobles. Second: Only the raw power of human masses could win a war against Chaos, but humans kingdoms would not be able to do it by their own. Three: A direct project should address both issues: create (mainly human) military orders outside of imperial politics and aided in their training by the powers of all Council members. To avoid them being able to be used politically and to intervene in politics, the orders would not be able to fight any war with other members of the Council unless ordered by the Council but it would only answer to the Council as well. This would put aside all political problems the parties could have: neither the Empire nor Bretonia, nor the human kingdoms acting as one, could use them.

The orders would aim at matching and overcoming the strenght of even the mighty WoC or Daemons of Chaos. In order to do so, the Council had to take an echumenical solution: the Orders could be linked to certain religious believes, but could never be dependent on any Church. This would allow the raw power of Sigmar Priests, Priests of Ulric, Warrior of Grimmnir, and so on, to serve as basis for some given Templar Orders.

For more than 40 years, different agents of the HE, Dwarves, Empire and Bretonia worked on creating a given number of orders. They would be trained in arcane elven knowledge, human warfare and given dwarven armoury. Their existence was only revealed during the Storm of Chaos. The Council managed to keep this even secret to the Dark Gods themselves, so that Archaon underestimated the power of the Empire as its sole enemy, and was defeated and humiliated (as he indeed was). The Council had managed to change the history of the Warhammer World, or so it seemed...

9th Edition could pick up the political map after the creation of the Orders. Of course, you would have the Orders themselves, which given their secretive nature, could be little by little revealed. But also: what would the Inquisition and the Elector Counts think of armies taking power away from them and given it not only to the Emperor, but to Bretonians and Elfs? How would Chaos react to its most bitter defeat, just when the End of Times had been announced? What about Nagash and the Undead? The Orcs? This could have the potential to make the setting of Warhammer advance without changing really anything of any faction.

Of course, its success would rest completely on the design team. Make iconic and high quality figures and Iam quite sure this would be a huge success. The Orders would then have the potential of being developped: GW should of course start with an UM equivalent (which means: standard), but then move to only Dwarf (huge anti-magic), only Elven (opposite), only Ulric, etc.

GlenMorray
02-08-2013, 13:13
I actually really like that Turgol,

Sounds similar to Polands creation of the Teutonic Knights! Haha...

AverageBoss
02-08-2013, 14:23
They could always bring back the angels from the old fluff and have something to do with them and their mortal servants. Almost an inverse of Hordes of Chaos.

Of course I would rather see Cathay as an army than something akin to Space Marines (although I really would like to see the angels return to the fluff).

Lastavenger
02-08-2013, 16:53
Of course I would rather see Cathay as an army than something akin to Space Marines. Why GW don't done Catay or Nippon is beyond my imagination. They could do fighting monks, terracotta warriors (MI), dragons and fireworks launcher or ninjas, ronins, musketeers and samurais. You don't even have to try, in order to create decent idea for unit. Also GW could grab money from Asian market.

Vipoid
02-08-2013, 19:39
If I was making it from an existing faction, I'd probably choose Dwarves.

- They're a shooting-focussed army with artillery backup.
- Individually, they tend to be tougher and more skilled than Empire troops.
- There's an excellent reason to give them all good armour. ;)


Saying that though, I really hope GW doesn't do this. I consider SMs a problem with 40k, rather than a solution for Fantasy. I rather like having a multitude of races that are treated relatively equally - rather than one lovechild race in 40k that gets lavished with all the strongest rules.

Drasanil
02-08-2013, 22:27
Bring back the Gods of Law. Warriors of Law.

Lol, skimmed through the first two pages wondering if someone would mention it! But yeah, I agree, if you want fantasy space marines the Gods of Law would be the way to do it. Suitable knightly themed, anti-chaos, xenophobic killing machines.

dooms33ker
03-08-2013, 00:34
To echo several other posts: WoC is the closest you'll come to a close combat space marine army in fantasy. Brettonians might be stalwart defenders and proficient warriors, but they aren't the superhumans space marines are. With that said, an army of nothing but Grail Knights could pass for fantasy ravenwing, but just barely.

Morkmillian
04-08-2013, 22:30
like i saw sombody else mention i always viewed warriors of chaos as the space marine of the fantasy world.

they are each a death dealing super human incased in armour.
each a hero on his own (well maybe not quite but you get me)
just marines are good at shooting and warriors good at chopping.


that being said id love to see an entire army of marines converted to fantsy melee weapons on square bases ranked up :P
would deffo play against it no matter what army it was proxying.

would also love to see a marine on a horse.....that poor poor horse.

Lord Solar Plexus
05-08-2013, 04:57
It's outlandish, completely impossible and never going to happen, therefore nobody can tell you how it could be done. There is no Space, no lasers, no chainswords, no power armour. There is nothing that compares to SM in Fantasy. Nothing. All that could come of some attempt is ridicule, perversion of fluff and the complete degeneration of the game. Possibly the end of the world, too.

Let's all get a feel for what sheer lunacy we're talking about here, please:



Keep the costs down


Muahahahahaha...

dooms33ker
05-08-2013, 06:20
like i saw sombody else mention i always viewed warriors of chaos as the space marine of the fantasy world.

they are each a death dealing super human incased in armour.
each a hero on his own (well maybe not quite but you get me)
just marines are good at shooting and warriors good at chopping.


that being said id love to see an entire army of marines converted to fantsy melee weapons on square bases ranked up :P
would deffo play against it no matter what army it was proxying.

would also love to see a marine on a horse.....that poor poor horse.

It would have to be genetically modified like its rider. Maybe the empire mecha horse could carry a space mahreen.

Voodoo1
05-08-2013, 06:59
It would have to be genetically modified like its rider. Maybe the empire mecha horse could carry a space mahreen.

Bretonnian warhorses are bred to carry a man in full armor.

Johnmclane
05-08-2013, 16:32
Chaos mounts carry chaos armoured knights. Probably heavy as well. WoC is fantasy's spacemarines but not as overpowered as a spacemarine ;)

gorenut
05-08-2013, 17:22
Think if they just made a "good" counterpart to WoC, they'd be as close to Space Marines as possible. I know a lot of people who want to play with armorclad "vikings" who are larger than the average man and well beyond in abilities.. but many do not want to play as daemon worshippers. Their imagery has a much broader appeal than say something like Empire or Bretonnians. It is very easy to create your own fluff and just use WoC painted to be "good", but having officially written fluff and an army list that offers more differences with not being chaotic would help push this further with casual gamers.

Wishing
06-08-2013, 06:55
I seem to remember that there were marines on horses back in RT times, though only vaguely.

Charistoph
06-08-2013, 07:13
I seem to remember that there were marines on horses back in RT times, though only vaguely.

Lion's Angels? Well, before they were Astartes, any way.

EvilBlackMagicDarkness
07-08-2013, 07:29
They should just bring back Kislev with a "elite holy paladin" spin on the Imperialist Russian theme. It would make them very distinct from the Empire and Bretonnia, while fitting the lore well as they are the human nation most naturally at odds with chaos.