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View Full Version : Salamander issue revisited - can the template land on enemy units in combat?



Sinsigel
01-08-2013, 13:18
I recall this issue rising over the surface quite often before, but now with the advent of new lizardmen army book,
I would like to have this issue resolved as clearly as possible.

This trick using salamander works this way. Suppose there is a salamander on the board, obviously.
And near the salamander is an enemy unit in close combat with friendly unit. then, another unengaged enemy unit is placed
over the enemy unit in close combat, and it is within salamander's line of sight.
Below is rather crude rendition of the situation.


[Unengaged Enemy Unit - A]


--------------------------[Enemy Unit in combat - B]
--------------------------[Friendly Unit in combat]
--------------------------------------------------------------[Salamander]

In this situation, controlling player declares that salamander shoots at the unit A, and places the template at salamander's mouth carefully
so that it doesn't touch unit B and friendly unit at the initial position. Then the player rolls artillery dice, with good chance of hitting unit B.
The logic behind this trick is that 1) the salamander isn't targeting units in close combat, 2) and that the template itself is placed that it initially isn't touching unit in combat.

Further logics cite Fire Thrower rule in War Machine section which, unlike the rules for cannon and stone thrower, doesn't state that template cannot be placed
so that it might hit enemy models in combat. It simply states that the model places the teardrop template towrds the enemy and roll the dice.
The fire thrower profile shows its range being n/a, so the restrictions for maximum distance is hardly applied.

Now, is this trick legal? And in regard to this issu, what does salamander section in the new 8th lizardmen army book state?
Does it say salamander's weapon is treated as fire thrower?

kefkah
01-08-2013, 13:35
Well First off if there is even a 1% chanse of the sallies targeting their own unit you cant willfully make him spit in that direction.

Otherwise, i let someone else answer this.

Artiee
01-08-2013, 13:53
Its hard to tell by your ASCII diagram. Can the Salamander See Unit A over the combat? You have to be able to see the unit before it can shoot.

I would think it would have the possibility to be able hit Unit A.


We don't know what the new book states until Saturday.

Sinsigel
02-08-2013, 05:15
To make things a bit clear, I was referring to situation shown in diagram below.

http://i1171.photobucket.com/albums/r547/Sinsigel/222_Deployment_zps7738cf0d.jpg (http://s1171.photobucket.com/user/Sinsigel/media/222_Deployment_zps7738cf0d.jpg.html)

In this diagram, the salamander can draw its line of sight to archers, and is placing the flame template so that it has no chance of
hitting friendly saurus warriors(as per BRB p.39) while aiming the template toward the archers.
And the template has a good chance of landing on White Lions in combat.
Now, will this trick be legal under the new 8th lizardmen book?

Malagor
02-08-2013, 05:46
The BRB state that if you shoot a template weapon it may not shoot if there is even the slightest chance that it might hit friendlies or units in close combat.

Edit: ok, if it scatters over to then it can but salamanders doesn't scatter, it's more aiming with them so would still say no.

Sinsigel
02-08-2013, 06:04
The BRB state that if you shoot a template weapon it may not shoot if there is even the slightest chance that it might hit friendlies or units in close combat.
So unlesss Lizardmen is turning Skaven(which I doubt), it may not do so.

The thing which I see as a loophole in that rule(BRB p.39 to be specific), is that the rule says the template shouldn't placed in a way that could touch 'friendly' models in combat,
not enemy models. So using this tweak some of lizardmen players around me claim that the diagram is legal since the template is in no way touching friendly models.

Another logic behind this 'tweak' is that unlike cannon or stone thrower, either the rules for salamander and fire thrower never explicitly states that the template shouldn't
be placed in a way that it could touch(stone thrower) or bounce(cannon) into enemy units in combat.

Artiee
02-08-2013, 12:11
Based off your picture, the salamander is not aiming for the archers.

kefkah
02-08-2013, 15:09
Hm..well since this trick is going for what and what is not written, im gonna counter with this gem.

The rules for the salamander never states that its a fire thrower with range n/a, the range is CLEARLY stated. Its Range Artillery Dice.

So if someone is going to use this trick on me, i will argue ( the same exact wordplay) that the range is clearly Artillery Dice ( Not n/a, since its not a flame thrower) and since that unit he is a aiming for in your diagram is cearly not in Artillery Dice Range+The template he cant aim the unit to shoot at that.

I cant see how my reasoning ( same faulty/true as your) is any diffrent.

Begs me to the other question.

Are you proposing that a fire thrower can do the same thing?

Sinsigel
02-08-2013, 15:59
Hm..well since this trick is going for what and what is not written, im gonna counter with this gem.

The rules for the salamander never states that its a fire thrower with range n/a, the range is CLEARLY stated. Its Range Artillery Dice.

So if someone is going to use this trick on me, i will argue ( the same exact wordplay) that the range is clearly Artillery Dice ( Not n/a, since its not a flame thrower) and since that unit he is a aiming for in your diagram is cearly not in Artillery Dice Range+The template he cant aim the unit to shoot at that.

I cant see how my reasoning ( same faulty/true as your) is any diffrent.

Begs me to the other question.

Are you proposing that a fire thrower can do the same thing?

Not that I'm likely to benifit from this 'tweak'(I play HE. Some of my friends dplay lizardmen), but I just wanted to act as 'devil's advocate' to make things more clear.
And yes, I'm afraid that despite your reasoning, someone might argue that fire thrower works this way too.:(

Necromancy Black
03-08-2013, 12:55
Measure the distance. If the Archer unit could not possible be hit by the salamander (so has to be within template+10" range) then it's illegal to shoot at it.

If it is in range, and there is a chance the template won't also hit the unit in combat, then take the shot. If it lands on the combat then it lands on the combat, that's how the dice rolled.

Basically there needs to be a chance the shot actually hits the target it's aiming at but also a chance that it won't hit the combat or a friendly unit. This should be sufficiant to say that you're not aiming directly for the close combat unit.


Remember that if you disallow Salamanders from shooting whenever there is even the tiny chance of hitting an enemy uni in close combat this can then be abused by keeping units near other units in close combat, potentially rendering the Salamander useless.

Sotek
03-08-2013, 13:52
So by that logic, if there is a combat or allied unit within 10" of the target you can't shoot stone throwers, flamers and so on...

T10
03-08-2013, 21:48
The rules for the salamander never states that its a fire thrower with range n/a, the range is CLEARLY stated. Its Range Artillery Dice.


What are you talking about? The Salamander's Spout Flames rules says it uses the same rules as a fire thrower, and the profile given is nearly identical to the standard Fire Thrower profile in rule book, including "Range n/a".

-T10

kefkah
04-08-2013, 05:01
What are you talking about? The Salamander's Spout Flames rules says it uses the same rules as a fire thrower, and the profile given is nearly identical to the standard Fire Thrower profile in rule book, including "Range n/a".

-T10

I was using wordplay..BUT.

It states so in the FAQ maybe? the only reference to the rulebook is that modells are hit as per a breath weapon. The Profile included is not identical, the range is clearly "Artillery Dice" And Not "Rnage N/A".

And it dosent state that it uses the same rules as a fire thrower.

T10
04-08-2013, 09:31
[QUOTE=kefkah;6866975]I was using wordplay..BUT.

It states so in the FAQ maybe? the only reference to the rulebook is that modells are hit as per a breath weapon. The Profile included is not identical, the range is clearly "Artillery Dice" And Not "Range N/A".

Ok, I think I got it. I didn't realize that your answer was based on the 7th edition Lizardmen book by Andy Hoare. I based my answers on the 8th edition Lizardman book by Jeremy Vetock, the one that officially came out the day after your post.

In this new, current army book the Spout Flames rule is based on the Fire Thrower rules, with some exceptions.

-T10

Dav1deo
04-08-2013, 09:53
It was my understanding that you can't purposely fire into combat at all as, while on the board the two units are nice squares facing each other, in "reality" its a swirling mass of bodies making it impossible to only hit one unit, etc. Even if there's only a small chance (say only hit your unit on a <2" roll) it can't be done as 8th rules are pretty tight on shooting your own units. Happy to be proven wrong though!

N1AK
06-08-2013, 11:16
It was my understanding that you can't purposely fire into combat at all

The rules are that you can't intentionally fire into combat. However the question is how you apply that rule when their is a chance the shot will hit a combat. A stone thrower targeting a lone character stood next to a combat would have around a 1/4 chance of hitting the combat, is that allowed. If so, then why wouldn't a Salamander shot against the same character next to a combat be ok?

I tend to apply the rule on the basis that you may not shoot if the target (where the template is placed) is in combat or if in cases like the Salamander the shot could only hit the target if it also hit a combat.

Saldiven
06-08-2013, 13:19
A stone thrower targeting a lone character stood next to a combat would have around a 1/4 chance of hitting the combat, is that allowed. If so, then why wouldn't a Salamander shot against the same character next to a combat be ok?

But, conversely, a cannon shot's initial target point cannot be placed such that the combined deviation and bounce could take it into a friendly unit or combat. I would argue that the rules for a Fire Thrower are more analagous to a Cannon than a Stone Thrower.

N1AK
06-08-2013, 15:42
But, conversely, a cannon shot's initial target point cannot be placed such that the combined deviation and bounce could take it into a friendly unit or combat. I would argue that the rules for a Fire Thrower are more analagous to a Cannon than a Stone Thrower.

That's a fair interpretation and I certainly wouldn't say it is wrong. I don't know what the right answer is because the rules, in my opinion, aren't clear for most weapons that don't hit a fixed point or miss entirely. If the rule was that you may never fire into combat, or fire in such a way that you could hit a combat, and there was an exception for the stone thrower saying that it could be fired even if the scatter might take it into combat then the rules would be clear; unfortunately that's not what we have.

As the rules aren't clear I tend to apply them in the way that gives benefit of the doubt to the situation. If the shot can hit the target without hitting a combat then I'm inclined to allow it.