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Garathiel
03-08-2013, 11:06
Are the bretonnian magical lances truly "lance" ?

yes: so they give +2 strength (rulebook) and +2strength&other magical effect (magic weapon desciption)

no: so they could be combined with a normal lance (+2 strength & used on charge) plus the magical effect of the weapon (+2 strength on charge to Bearer)

.. All of this because the rulebook changed the way LANCE works , +2 stength, usable on charge but bretonnians could use magical lances "all turns after the charge". [if yes]

.. Because it works similar to other magic weapons like antiherosword combinet with a normal lance.[if not]

Artinam
03-08-2013, 11:58
We had this discussion on the round table,

Technically they are not lances. They share every rule as a lance but aren't mentioned as 'count as lance' except in the name of the item.

However on the roundtable of Bretonnia site, a large majority of the community agreed that for all intents and purposes they are intended to be magical lances as the special (always use a magical lance in all rounds of combat) rule would be completely pointless if they are not.
I mean the name alone of the item would leave very little ambiguity. Its a relic from the past when people had common sense, and if something is called a lance in its name and shares all rules with a lance its (in our opinion) intended to be a lance. This happens when your the oldest armybook (barring the Dogs of War).

Id stay far away from this interpretation as it adds nothing but pure rule lawyering and confusion ('What do you mean that the Silver Lance of the Blessed isn't a lance, its called a lance and it has lance rules doesn't it?')

A quick note, only a very selective number of magical items work with a mundane lance when charging with a very specific wording (There is a list on the roundtable website if your curious) and the magical 'lances' do not share this wording and even this rule is vague at best as Bretonnian are the only army who has this 'use a mundane weapon when charging' rule.

*EDIT* Quick note on 'we all agreed' a majority of the community agreed, the discussion came with the development of the Community FAQ a while back. So its not everyone off course :)

theunwantedbeing
03-08-2013, 14:20
The Bretonnian magical lances don't have the lance weapon rule.
So they aren't actually magical lances and if you took a mundane lance then you'll be forced to use that instead.
Sounds daft but really it's your own fault for paying for a regular lance in addition to a magical one, save yourself the 4 or 6pts and it will never be an issue.

The difference between a regular magical lance and a bretonnian one is only marginal though.
A normal magical lance can't be used in subsequent rounds, or on foot (due to the lance rules).
A bretonnian magical lance can be used in subsequent rounds and can be used on foot (although it doesn't provide the strength bonus on foot).
Otherwise they're functionally identical.

It's just a quirk of the rules not being updated since 6th edition.

Also note that you only benefit from the weapon you are using.
So if you take a regular lance and the sword of anti-heroes, you will only benefit from the one you are using....not both at the same time.
So for bretonnians you have to use the regular lance on the charge, and then the sword of anti-heroes when you don't.
For everyone else, you'll never get to use the lance while your sword of anti-heroes exists.

Artinam
03-08-2013, 15:13
[quote]Also note that you only benefit from the weapon you are using.
So if you take a regular lance and the sword of anti-heroes, you will only benefit from the one you are using....not both at the same time.
So for bretonnians you have to use the regular lance on the charge, and then the sword of anti-heroes when you don't.
For everyone else, you'll never get to use the lance while your sword of anti-heroes exists. [/uote]

This is actually not entirely true, RAWly speaking. The rulebook FAQ indicates that certain weapons keep working while they aren't wielded (fe. the Sword of Anti-Heroes). There are several other items with a similar wording. So technically when your charging with a mundane lance the items do not loose their effect.
I can link you the thread of the roundtable if you want. I was a staunch opponent of this but its legal RAWise. It only works for Bretonnia as its the only armybook where you can have a magical weapon and not use it in favor of a mundane one (lance). Its a bit iffy to do this (best combination is probably the Lance and sword of anti-heroes) and I recommend everyone to bring this up to NOT use it as its not really intended to work like this and will stir up debate.

Fen
03-08-2013, 15:35
[quote]
I can link you the thread of the roundtable if you want. I was a staunch opponent of this but its legal RAWise. It only works for Bretonnia as its the only armybook where you can have a magical weapon and not use it in favor of a mundane one (lance).
Demons too,if i'm not mistaken they might roll the right to take 2 magic weapons on the gift table (or whatever the name is),so if they pick 2 "anti-heroes" style ones they can add them up

theunwantedbeing
03-08-2013, 16:10
This is actually not entirely true, RAWly speaking. The rulebook FAQ indicates that certain weapons keep working while they aren't wielded (fe. the Sword of Anti-Heroes). There are several other items with a similar wording. So technically when your charging with a mundane lance the items do not loose their effect.

Ah I see what you mean.
Yeah it is legal due to the way that particular FAQ question has been worded (very badly).

Still I wouldn't advocate anyone pulling that trick outside of a tournament environment.

Garathiel
03-08-2013, 17:23
Rawly speaking all the magic lances (common magic weapons without the keyword "lance" ) got the phrase "+2 strength to the bearer" like antiheroes sword & co. so it should work in combination with a common lance.(I don't like it at all .. but it seems to me a correct interpretation. just for competitive/tournament matches )

hamsterwheel
03-08-2013, 17:56
Q: Does a weapon that gives a bonus to a characteristic only give that
bonus when being used to attack a model?(p4)
A: Most weapons, including magic weapons, state when the
bonusis given. For example, a model with the Fencer’s Blades
will always have Weapon Skill 10 whilsta model with a great
weapon will only have +2 Strength when striking an enemy in
close combat. When a weapon does not say when the
characteristic bonus applies, then it only applies when striking,
or being struck, in close combat.

Does this apply to this? Do all Bret lances say that the model has +2 strength even while not in combat?

Garathiel
03-08-2013, 18:08
The bretonnian weapons say WHEN .. ON THE CHARGE .. To Who? THE BEARER.

Artinam
03-08-2013, 18:31
Garathiel, are you the same guy from the discussion on the roundtable ;)?

Great find once again, one I will never use but still an interesting loophole. Makes the Virtue of Joust line saying it works with magical lances absolutely useless.

Garathiel
03-08-2013, 21:45
Yes Artinam, I'm Alexandre on the bretonnian round table forum ;) , nice to meet you again.

I repeat that i dislike totally this loophole .. But I think they need to fix it with a faq because even if they reword the magic items in the way of "lance. Magic effect." A lance would give his strength bonus in each turn it is wielded. (Rulebook)

(I hope to have written it correctly ^^')