PDA

View Full Version : Chaos dwarfs - Viable army?



Ealdwulf
27-08-2013, 03:48
So once again my adventuring into a warhammer wiki rabbit hole lead me to chaos dwarfs. I remember when I started playing warhammer fantasy back in the 90's these guys were still around in an official capacity. Such a weird but cool idea. Even if the old models were fairly bad (in my opinion).

Now with the release of the the fantastic forge world chaos dwarfs I've been entertaining the idea of grabbing some and painting them up.

A few questions from veterans that may know.

Firstly, what does the army play like? I'm not keen on buying the forge world book out of curiosity just yet I'd like to know their overall playstyle.

Secondly are these guys ever allowed in tournament play?

I'm more of a proper dwarf guy but these guys could be a nice change of pace.

MLP
27-08-2013, 04:35
I don't know about the US but in the UK they're mostly accepted now after a shaky start. GW tournament mostly allow them and as far as I'm aware most others do too. No one ever minded in pick up games or around my local area and I was normally the first person they'd seen with chaos dwarfs.

The play style is a bit of a weird mix between Dwarfs, O&G and Warriors of Chaos in my opinion. Although its a rather small list compared to your standard army book.

You have one Lord choice, who is magic and combat mixed.

The core of the army is either absolutely solid infernal guard chaos dwarfs, which are like ironbreakers but stubborn with a hero choice in there. Or hobgoblins which are basically common goblins with slightly different options.

Special choices are mostly war machines which are pretty much above average as they come and awesome with an Daemonsmith engineer. There's monstrous beast bull centaurs and monstrous infantry k'daii fireborn, the former is tough as nails and the latter are very Killy.

Rare choices are more war machines of similar nature, the infamous K'daii destroyer which is pretty amazing and a couple other bits.

Generally the stronger builds are based around a large stubborn infantry block supported maybe by steadfast hobgoblins, 2 - 5 war machines, a unit of something monstrous and destroyer or Hellcannons.

You can run a very hard hitting and relatively fast list without any war machines but you've got to be on form to play it well.

If you like check out www.chaos-dwarfs.com it's a great site and the guys there are friendly and helpful.

outbreak
27-08-2013, 04:36
I'm not a tournament player myself but I have seen them used in some reports I've seen around the net so I assume some places do allow them. The list is pretty strong, as far as I am aware the main play styles involve lots of crazy shooting or running daemons which can be pretty hard. It's also worth looking at the mantic models for chaos dwarfs but their sets are apparently just their regular dwarfs with conversion bits so you need to do more work yourself to get them to look nice. Chaos dwarfs are definitely doable now though. I've considered them myself but am hoping for some sort of dogs of war supplement to come around from forgeworld.

Lord Solar Plexus
27-08-2013, 05:50
They're less and less accepted at tournaments here in Germany. A guy who owned a sizeable force (one of his 7 armies) just sold his. He also told me they weren't allowed at the last GT in England and he feared they would get squatted next year.

Wesser
27-08-2013, 06:29
They are accepted in Denmark, but I've never met anyone who played them.

They do tend to be listed as an exception though

The real problem for them though is though if they'll get any support if 9th edition changes things as much as has been rumoured...

Sexiest_hero
27-08-2013, 06:40
Tournies let them be played, people spammed K'daii destroyers, and now not only are they beginning to be banned from tournies, it's hard to find pick up games with them. I hate to see such a beautiful army go to waste. Buy the army because you like the models.

Rakariel
27-08-2013, 08:40
So far there hasn`t been a problem with CDs in my area, meaning they are accepted at all the tourneys I went to and will be going to in the future. I`m a bit surprised about some saying that they might not be accepted in the future. While that could be true (I really had no idea before I read LSPs post that there was less and less acceptance in Germany) I actually hope its not. If they are too powerful (and there isn`t much doubt that some builds/units definitly are) just restict them. They are restricted around here as is every other army.

I`m glad that my gaming group doesn`t have a problem with me bringing mine, albeit I am not someone who is going bonkers in taking just powerful choices the army has to offer ;)

Lord Solar Plexus
27-08-2013, 10:54
Well, I'm just speaking for myself and my limited observations. Perhaps it's just an outlier. It was just that I noticed a couple of tournaments not allowing them and then this guy saying he sold his army because he heard they wouldn't be part of 9th...even then I thought that was pretty vague intel. They're not part of the 8th edition AB's either, so what's the big deal? I know someone else who has an army and has expressed interest in playing them in our League, so make of that what you want. I don't wish to spread false rumours at all.

Rakariel
27-08-2013, 12:43
Ah no worries, I did perceive it as a subjective observation not general fact. Its good to know however that CDs aren`t as accepted in some areas as in others so that is something someone has to consider before starting them. I did start them mostly cause I love Dwarfs in general and their darker kin is just special, fluff and model wise (apart from the fact that they are never overpresented at tourneys).

IcedCrow
27-08-2013, 14:28
I'm not sure about the tournament scene, but our narratives allow them and I'm collecting one now. They are an awesome army both hobby-wise and on the table.

riotknight
27-08-2013, 15:31
In the Toronto area, almost every tournament allows chaos dwarves. There is usually only 1 or 2 who show up.

Sent from my SGH-T989D using Tapatalk 2

Myster2
27-08-2013, 16:00
I've seen about a 50/50 mix of them allowed allowed in the northwest. They are ridiculously powerful in my opinion. Having some of the best shooting and best monsters available.

Ealdwulf
27-08-2013, 16:03
Interesting replies for sure. So with a pretty limited selection of core troops, can they also use things from Ogre Kingdoms and Orcs & Goblins?

Just seems weird to have an army of mostly war machines?

MLP
27-08-2013, 16:12
They can't use units from those armies within their own list. Choices are:

Lords: sorcerer-prophet

Heroes: chaos dwarf infernal Castellan, chaos dwarf daemonsmith, hobgoblin khan, bull centaur tauruk

Core: chaos dwarf infernal ironguard, hobgoblin cutthroats

Special: chaos dwarf infernal ironsworn, bull centaur renders, k'daii fireborn, deathshrieker rocket launcher, magma cannon, iron daemon

Rare: hobgoblin wolf raiders, dreadquake mortar, k'daii destroyer, Hellcannon, siege giant

They're not insanely powerful as some night think. I'd say they're in the top half of all armies maybe close to top third. But from what i can tell they don't dominate at tournaments.

Their perceived overpower is likely from people being unused to the army. Once you know their tricks and work the counters in to your army list you'll be okay... Unless you're wood elves or ogres.

Edit: just to clarify, they're probably as much an army of war machines as dwarfs and can do without war machines better than them.

Ealdwulf
27-08-2013, 16:15
They can't use units from those armies within their own list. Choices are:

Lords: sorcerer-prophet

Heroes: chaos dwarf infernal Castellan, chaos dwarf daemonsmith, hobgoblin khan, bull centaur tauruk

Core: chaos dwarf infernal ironguard, hobgoblin cutthroats

Special: chaos dwarf infernal ironsworn, bull centaur renders, k'daii fireborn, deathshrieker rocket launcher, magma cannon, iron daemon

Rare: hobgoblin wolf raiders, dreadquake mortar, k'daii destroyer, Hellcannon, siege giant

They're not insanely powerful as some night think. I'd say they're in the top half of all armies maybe close to top third. But from what i can tell they don't dominate at tournaments.

Their perceived overpower is likely from people being unused to the army. Once you know their tricks and work the counters in to your army list you'll be okay... Unless you're wood elves or ogres.

Edit: just to clarify, they're probably as much an army of war machines as dwarfs and can do without war machines better than them.

So for units like the hobgoblin wolf riders etc, I'm assuming people convert exsisting GW models?

MLP
27-08-2013, 16:23
So for units like the hobgoblin wolf riders etc, I'm assuming people convert exsisting GW models?

Basically yes. There's a few options but the simplest really is just to use common goblins and goblin wolf riders. Chaos warhounds or fenrisan wolves could also be used for mounts and skaven stormvermin have been used as conversions. There are alternative models from other companies like mantic. Check out chaos-dwarfs.com there's loads of conversion works there.

Forgeworld said they wouldn't be releasing sculpts for them as they would be too expensive for their relatively cheap in game value. So they wouldn't expect people to pay for them. But that could have changed by now.

Ronin no Matsu
27-08-2013, 16:33
So for units like the hobgoblin wolf riders etc, I'm assuming people convert exsisting GW models?

There's no other choices right now indeed.

Also, I'll say like MLP, people think they are overpowered because most of them don't know what they are facing. Even a really strong list can be countered by almost every army if you know what to do (except maybe wood elves). There aren't many battle report on youtube, but a quick look and you'll see they aren't winning above average.

Ealdwulf
27-08-2013, 16:54
They can't use units from those armies within their own list. Choices are:

Lords: sorcerer-prophet

Heroes: chaos dwarf infernal Castellan, chaos dwarf daemonsmith, hobgoblin khan, bull centaur tauruk

Core: chaos dwarf infernal ironguard, hobgoblin cutthroats

Special: chaos dwarf infernal ironsworn, bull centaur renders, k'daii fireborn, deathshrieker rocket launcher, magma cannon, iron daemon

Rare: hobgoblin wolf raiders, dreadquake mortar, k'daii destroyer, Hellcannon, siege giant

They're not insanely powerful as some night think. I'd say they're in the top half of all armies maybe close to top third. But from what i can tell they don't dominate at tournaments.

Their perceived overpower is likely from people being unused to the army. Once you know their tricks and work the counters in to your army list you'll be okay... Unless you're wood elves or ogres.

Edit: just to clarify, they're probably as much an army of war machines as dwarfs and can do without war machines better than them.

So for units like the hobgoblin wolf riders etc, I'm assuming people convert exsisting GW models?

popisdead
27-08-2013, 19:27
They are accepted in Western Canada as tournament playable.

tmarichards
27-08-2013, 19:32
In terms of external power level (how they fare against other armies), they're a fairly middle of the road book. However, the book itself has terrible internal balance- the choices range from a must-have to awful, which means that whilst the sum of the parts is not too bad the individual parts of the army are extremely obnoxious to play against such as the one of the least killable monsters in the game that annihilates most thing it touches, spells and items with ridiculous effects and then all the worst parts of the standard Dwarf book (which should itself be banned from the game) which are blocks of hard to kill troops that sit in their deployment zone in front of war machines.

Another common grumble about them that has already been mentioned is that a number of people (including, often, the people that use the army) don't know how they work. This is in part due to the army being rare so there's not much in-game experience to be had, and also the prohibitive cost of the book. As a result, a lot of the more unpleasant items come as an even more unpleasant surprise and it's also open to abuse (against me I've had players claim that their war machines can angle their templates anyway they like and then also using war machines that are less than 25% of the size of the official models so that they're harder to shoot at).

They're also not allowed at GW's own tournaments, which perhaps gives an idea of their legitimacy.

On a more amusing note though, the fans of the book are some of the most easily wound up people on the internet who seem to take a simple explanation of why it's not a proper army book as a personal insult to their mother's honour. So a little bit of poking is always in order :)

The bearded one
27-08-2013, 20:49
The army as a whole becomes a fairly viable force simply by placing a K'Daai destroyer on the table with it. Yes, it is indeed that powerful ;)

I suspect that if your army doesn't have a K'Daai destroyer in it you're going to receive vastly fewer complaints. Without it they're a different kind of flavour dwarf army, though with magic, and acces to throw-away troops, fast cavalry, monstrous cavalry and monstrous infantry, allowing for some more varied movement-play compared to a regular dwarf army.

thrawn
27-08-2013, 20:56
In the Toronto area, almost every tournament allows chaos dwarves. There is usually only 1 or 2 who show up.

Sent from my SGH-T989D using Tapatalk 2

ya i brought mine to the tournament in K-W earlier this year (for doubles only though).

they may have at one point been considered over powered, but now that people know what they do they're just average (dragon helm heros are very common and will stop a destroyer in his tracks). so ya, it's mostly a "i'm standing back and shooting" army, with some solid infantry choices.

Rakariel
27-08-2013, 21:41
On a more amusing note though, the fans of the book are some of the most easily wound up people on the internet who seem to take a simple explanation of why it's not a proper army book as a personal insult to their mother's honour. So a little bit of poking is always in order :)

Jeez thats one hell of a subjective generalization. That would be like me saying you have an exceeding anger management problem according to your youtube battreps :rolleyes:

The Odor
27-08-2013, 22:18
I have played with them a couple of times (Borrowing/switching with a friends force) and they okay.

Some things are ridiculusly good (Destroyer, magma cannon, certain spells and item builds) while other are REALLY overcosted (entire core/lots of special basically) but even the amazing stuff have pretty bad hard counters (usually dragonbane items. I have had destroyers hit away at the cheapest of heroes for games).

Basically stay away from gunlines/powergaming and you'll have a great time.

tmarichards
27-08-2013, 23:34
Jeez thats one hell of a subjective generalization. That would be like me saying you have an exceeding anger management problem according to your youtube battreps :rolleyes:

Broad strokes get the fence painted quickly :)

jestacardo
27-08-2013, 23:36
They're also not allowed at GW's own tournaments, which perhaps gives an idea of their legitimacy.
Pretty sure they were allowed at a couple of GW's tournaments in Warhammer World.


On a more amusing note though, the fans of the book are some of the most easily wound up people on the internet who seem to take a simple explanation of why it's not a proper army book as a personal insult to their mother's honour. So a little bit of poking is always in order :)

The Tamurkhan book explicitly states the list is to be considered an official GW army, as valid as any other army book. Hence the annoyance when people try and make out otherwise.

Ayin
28-08-2013, 00:29
In terms of external power level (how they fare against other armies), they're a fairly middle of the road book. However, the book itself has terrible internal balance- the choices range from a must-have to awful, which means that whilst the sum of the parts is not too bad the individual parts of the army are extremely obnoxious to play against

You could easily be talking about the Empire with this. In fact, that's pretty much a PERFECT description of the Empire army book, and one which I would bet almost every Empire player would agree with.



Another common grumble about them that has already been mentioned is that a number of people (including, often, the people that use the army) don't know how they work. This is in part due to the army being rare so there's not much in-game experience to be had, and also the prohibitive cost of the book. As a result, a lot of the more unpleasant items come as an even more unpleasant surprise and it's also open to abuse (against me I've had players claim that their war machines can angle their templates anyway they like and then also using war machines that are less than 25% of the size of the official models so that they're harder to shoot at).

This is the strangest list of issues with an 'army' I have ever seen! :) Really? People using non-standard models as stand ins is a problem with the Chaos Dwarf army? People not knowing how an army plays, or what an item does, or even their own rules is a Chaos Dwarf problem? This is some serious reaching.



On a more amusing note though, the fans of the book are some of the most easily wound up people on the internet who seem to take a simple explanation of why it's not a proper army book as a personal insult to their mother's honour. So a little bit of poking is always in order :)


all the worst parts of the standard Dwarf book (which should itself be banned from the game) which are blocks of hard to kill troops that sit in their deployment zone in front of war machines.

I like the trolling. Keep it classy.

The bearded one
28-08-2013, 00:45
This is the strangest list of issues with an 'army' I have ever seen! :) Really? People using non-standard models as stand ins is a problem with the Chaos Dwarf army? People not knowing how an army plays, or what an item does, or even their own rules is a Chaos Dwarf problem? This is some serious reaching.

I find it a very valid complaint, although the small-size warmachines are more up to players than the book.
It is not strange to be unfamiliar with the stats, rules, magic spells and items of an army that is very uncommon to face. You are not aware of what kind of dirty-trick magic items might come out of any random character's pocket, wether you should invest in dispelling a spell or wait for one of higher priority, or how any of their various warmachines fires (and consequently how you could take yourself out of a vulnerable position). Imagine the havock you inflict on yourself if you're playing against dark elves and didnt know anything about their selection of magic items.

Ayin
28-08-2013, 01:36
Very true, but as you said, that's a problem with having an unfamiliar foe. If I was to play against a Woodelf army currently, I would be very unfamiliar with it, as it's been a long time since I've seen one played, but that's not a hit on Chaos Dwarfs, there are lots of armies I am not familiar with, just as there are many special characters, magic items and such I am not familiar with. It's the same with potentially any army. I get that less people play Chaos Dwarfs, but those players should be able to talk to you and explain things, and their book should be available to you.

Besides, if you are playing a Chaos Dwarfs player (outside of a one time tournament matchup) you are going to have the opportunity to learn their book, just as you would with any other army you are facing for the first time.

I have personally never played (in 8th) against:
-Ogre Kingdoms (which I can hardly believe)
-Wood Elves
-Tomb Kings

And I am sure they would have a ton of nasty surprises the first time I played them, but that isn't a nock on those armies.

The bearded one
28-08-2013, 01:43
Eventually everyone can get acquainted with them, but for the time being they're quite a lot rarer and their book harder to come by. The likelihood of anyone in the local circle owning any of the regular books is larger though, and I think the internet discussion on them considerably more extensive as well.

I'm lucky in that I have a half decent knowledge of what kind of things chaos dwarfs can do and had the opportunity to browse the book in peace once, but I couldn't really take 15 minutes to browse all their rules (and some are pretty extensive) during a game.

quietus1986
28-08-2013, 05:16
there oke but not over powert I won the book and in my club we have a player. dragenbane helm and the other item wil keep there bigist prublem at bay it its on a stron moddel like a vampire it would even destroy it. and for the rest its a gun line army to play it at best with the same weaknises.

Ayin
28-08-2013, 07:02
I own Tamurkhan (and it's awesome), and I've only browsed their rules, but I haven't even looked inside of, say, the 8th ed Vampire Counts book, so I would say I have an equal knowledge of both.

The army is itself viable, and not ridiculous to play against. The main rule problem that came from it (the -1 to wound the constructs, specifically the big one) I believe got Errata'd to be different now, but regardless, it was no more ridiculous than what many other armies could put on the table. Coming from Forgeworld it got a lot of flak, either because there is a lot of leftover bad feelings regarding Forgeworld rules, which is understandable though I think the time has come and passed for that to be let go, or because somehow many players seemed to be almost personally insulted by it. It was a strange thing indeed when it first came out to see the anger it generated, and mostly amongst those who I would say had little right to complain about power level or army builds.

To get the most out of the army, build it the way it is described, include the big Hob-goblin units, and have a bit of everything. It may be tempting to just have Chaos Dwarfs in the army, but it will be a lot more fun for both you and your opponents if it's mixed up, it gives you some bodies on the field, adds a nice look to your army, and it's nice to actually have the horde of slave warriors to throw into the grinder against the stuff you don't want to fight.

One thing to consider is that, long ago, GW released a Dogs of War unit called the Oglah Khan's Wolfboyz, and they would make either great wolf riders, or more reasonably the bodies/basis for good wolf rider commanders/command models, and Oglah himself would make a great Khan hero choice (as that's what he is). There was also a Dogs of War Hobgoblin lord choice released around the same time, another great model to use as a Hobgoblin hero.

Trying to get a few extra Goblin Wolf Rider heads into your basic goblins is a good way to give them the Hobgoblin look as well, especially on unit champs and such, but then again, as the Chaos Dwarf army explains that the ground pounders are usually terribly equipped slaves and the wolf riders mercenaries, having the nice fur lined helmets only on the riders works well. One pitfall to avoid is using Night Goblins as Hobgoblins. I have seen people do this, feeling that they have a better overall look than regular goblins, but Hobgoblins are supposed to be larger than almost all other goblins (with the probably exception of Hill goblins) so the classic/standard goblins work great for them.

Lastly, the army only has one Lord choice available to it, so for the top end characters you don't have a lot of options, especially in higher point games. I would suggest going all out and mounting him on one of the two choices. Don't forget the Lammasu, their rules are in the Storm of Chaos, they make interesting mounts to say the least and can add a lot to you your army.

Far2Casual
28-08-2013, 14:52
The main problem with CD in France/Belgium is that the army book is only available in English which is a problem. I bet the German case is the same. The only time I've seen it banned was for this sole reason. The book in itself is hard to get and to read, and most opponents have to believe you when you enumerate the numerous special rules so it can create complex situations.

The army itself is good but hardly top tier, and honestly without the Destroyer it would be crap. As a good proof of this, they had few composition limitations during the last ETC (lvl 4 or chalice, number of warmachines, k'daai). The french CD player at the ETC admitted they would have done better with a Daemon or Vampire list in his feedback on the french forum.

Ronin no Matsu
28-08-2013, 20:35
The army itself is good but hardly top tier, and honestly without the Destroyer it would be crap. As a good proof of this, they had few composition limitations during the last ETC (lvl 4 or chalice, number of warmachines, k'daai). The french CD player at the ETC admitted they would have done better with a Daemon or Vampire list in his feedback on the french forum.

The destroyer is an impressive beast against unexperienced player, but it can be countered rather easily by good players. The destroyer isn't a must have and many good lists don't have one.

Stimpson J Cat
28-08-2013, 21:28
I find it a very valid complaint, although the small-size warmachines are more up to players than the book.
It is not strange to be unfamiliar with the stats, rules, magic spells and items of an army that is very uncommon to face. You are not aware of what kind of dirty-trick magic items might come out of any random character's pocket, wether you should invest in dispelling a spell or wait for one of higher priority, or how any of their various warmachines fires (and consequently how you could take yourself out of a vulnerable position). Imagine the havock you inflict on yourself if you're playing against dark elves and didnt know anything about their selection of magic items.

Personally, I think it sounds great to face a completely unknown army and find out about all their nasty tricks as the game goes on. Sounds fun.

Wesser
29-08-2013, 07:16
Personally, I think it sounds great to face a completely unknown army and find out about all their nasty tricks as the game goes on. Sounds fun.

Tsk tsk, I can imagine your Generals speech to the troops:

"Okay men, we don't know anything about the enemy. You halberdiers walk slowly toward that weird contraption over there and we'll see how many of you it kills".

I dont know anything about CD's, and if I had to face them I'd be asking my head off. Walking into the unknown sounds more fun than it is...

MLP
29-08-2013, 09:58
Personally, I think it sounds great to face a completely unknown army and find out about all their nasty tricks as the game goes on. Sounds fun.

Totally agree, there's still a few armies I haven't faced in 8th and I'm quite looking forward to eventually coming up against something new that I have to figure out.

Ayin
30-08-2013, 09:11
Personally, I think it sounds great to face a completely unknown army and find out about all their nasty tricks as the game goes on. Sounds fun.

In fact, whenever you play against ANY army, you are only supposed to find out about most of their 'tricks' (magic items and such) as the game goes on.

IcedCrow
30-08-2013, 13:57
I personally like new armies for the unknown aspect. Some people hate it though and rage against not having read the book before hand because they can't effectively math hammer probabilities because they haven't memorized the stat blocks yet. This is the primary argument for not letting CD in events, because the book isn't as commonly accessible (read: its more expensive) as the other books and its not "fair".

I'm always for a compromise. I have no problem letting someone see my book or answer any questions that they may have before the game. If your issue is tournaments and tournament-time, well... nothing I suggest will ever be accepted on that front because to me if you're a tournament player you should have access to everything you may face IMO.

Powerposey
30-08-2013, 14:07
Trying to get a few extra Goblin Wolf Rider heads into your basic goblins is a good way to give them the Hobgoblin look as well, especially on unit champs and such, but then again, as the Chaos Dwarf army explains that the ground pounders are usually terribly equipped slaves and the wolf riders mercenaries, having the nice fur lined helmets only on the riders works well. One pitfall to avoid is using Night Goblins as Hobgoblins. I have seen people do this, feeling that they have a better overall look than regular goblins, but Hobgoblins are supposed to be larger than almost all other goblins (with the probably exception of Hill goblins) so the classic/standard goblins work great for them.
Best conversion I have seen, maybe here on Warseer, was using LotR Orcs or Hobbit Goblins with Gnoblar heads. Ask any Ogre player for extra Gnoblar heads as the sprue comes with twice the amount of heads that are needed.

dooms33ker
30-08-2013, 21:13
Don't cheese out with the magma cannons and destroyers and you shouldn't have a problem. Also, If you want to use the Forgeworld army book and rules, go and buy the forgeworld models that correspond with the new units. A Dreadquake mortar is not the old earthshaker, and bull centaur renders are not the same as bull centaurs.

The new units aren't just different aesthetically, their size is supposed to represent their in-game abilities. There is no way you can even physically compare the behemoth that is the Dreadquake mortar to that cooking pot with wheels they called the Earthshaker.

rickie82
31-08-2013, 15:12
The new units aren't just different aesthetically, their size is supposed to represent their in-game abilities. There is no way you can even physically compare the behemoth that is the Dreadquake mortar to that cooking pot with wheels they called the Earthshaker.
Remove the Steamcarige from dreadquake and tada more or less same size. Would only use Ogre upgrade for that pice so I find a old Earthshaker with an added ogre more then fair.
Only thing that dont cross over well from old is the Bull Centaurs, the new ones are massive, but as ugly as they are big. I wont blame anyone if they use their old ones instead. Just get the bases the rght size and only mofos that you dont want to play anyways will complain.

Big hats is what made me want to play warhammer ohh so many years ago. Coolest model range in a fantasy game ever.

Urgat
01-09-2013, 08:46
Remove the Steamcarige from dreadquake and tada more or less same size.

Besides, considering the rules, it's the sensible way to field it. Instead of all that useless mumbojumbo, the carriage upgrade should have added move and fire, and then nothing else.