PDA

View Full Version : Standardized Impact Hits



Malorian
28-08-2013, 19:17
I was just thinking about how minotaurs and ogres get impact hits but trolls and drypt horrors don't, or how the hellpit has impact hit but the arachnarok and giant don't.

So should this be standardized?

Should all montrous infantry get a single impact hit?

Should all monster get impact hits?


Thoughts?

Sotek
28-08-2013, 19:30
What are you on about?

monstroush infantry 1 stomp attack
monsters d6 thunderstomp attacks.

Scammel
28-08-2013, 19:30
In the case of Ogres and Minotaurs I think the IH represent a very specific way of charging, i.e. goring the enemy or actively using the mass of the group and attempting to bowl over the foe before striking, instead of just clawing/biting. Could it be extended to some monsters? Yes. Should all monstrous troops types get it as default? Don't think so, personally. Monsters that are too tall to really bring their mass to bear, such as the Arachnarok and Giant, don't really warrant it I feel.

The bearded one
28-08-2013, 19:32
What are you on about?

monstroush infantry 1 stomp attack
monsters d6 thunderstomp attacks.

Stomps are not impact hits, that's something different.

Malorian
28-08-2013, 19:39
In the case of Ogres and Minotaurs I think the IH represent a very specific way of charging, i.e. goring the enemy or actively using the mass of the group and attempting to bowl over the foe before striking, instead of just clawing/biting. Could it be extended to some monsters? Yes. Should all monstrous troops types get it as default? Don't think so, personally. Monsters that are too tall to really bring their mass to bear, such as the Arachnarok and Giant, don't really warrant it I feel.

See with the minotaur I understood it, but once they added it to ogres I had to wonder why they don't add it to others.

I can see impact hits for stonehorns, but why the hellpit?

Just seems to me that the logic behind it is failing and it may be time to standardize it.

Rakariel
28-08-2013, 19:45
Interesting idea. Speaking solely fluff wise, monsters in any given form should have impact hits as their size and mass would give them just that. I think most don`t have it however to give certain other models something special and set them apart. If all would have them, well it would make some units redundant and armies as a whole more similar (which is not a good thing imo).

Scammel
28-08-2013, 19:46
With Ogres I recall it being described as a very conscious tactic on their part, actively trying to get that bowling-over effect. For the Hellpit I suppose it could be argued that a good part of its' mass is situated fairly low down, but I think if any unit in the game were to be nominated to lose them, that'd be mine. I agree, sometimes the logic is a tad... odd, but I think the current, relatively sparse distribution is fine.

MLP
28-08-2013, 20:09
I think impact hits should only be for the units which would hit exceptionally hard on the charge, whether it being from Speed and scythes (Chariots), ferocious charging (minotaurs) or purposely bellyflopping (ogres).

Units like the Hellpit, trolls and giants shouldn't get them as they lumber in to combat due to being a bit dim witted or just having no real thought about it.

Niezck
28-08-2013, 20:24
I don't think standardisation would make a lot of sense in some cases (trolls and such), but certainly some units should have them that don't, and some that do shouldn't. Anything on a Juggernaught of Khorne for instance, while probably not needing much more combat strength than they already have, should probably get impact hits. It's a giant brass rhino, I mean come on.

StygianBeach
28-08-2013, 20:48
I think impact hits should only be for the units which would hit exceptionally hard on the charge, whether it being from Speed and scythes (Chariots), ferocious charging (minotaurs) or purposely bellyflopping (ogres).

Units like the Hellpit, trolls and giants shouldn't get them as they lumber in to combat due to being a bit dim witted or just having no real thought about it.

Agree, Hellpit should not get Impact hits. Normally (generic fantasy) Ogres should not either, but because GW Ogres have the whole gut fluff going on, I dont mind.

Malorian
28-08-2013, 20:51
I don't understand why ogres can get d3 impact hits whereas minotaurs only get 1.

It made sense when minotaurs got it, but this whole ogre thing is making me question everything.

And I know that's been a while ago, but it was just the last week that I was looking at the bulk of crypt horrors and river trolls and wondering why they shouldn't get it.

Azzaphox
28-08-2013, 20:55
GW have the opportunity with each of the new 8th edition rule books.
Ogre Kingdoms have it
Chaos Ogres have it.
I guess when you get a fuill beastman book maybe you gain it there too.

AM1640
28-08-2013, 21:04
Perhaps this will be a change that is made for 9th ed. in which all monstrous infantry gets 1 impact hit per rank at the start of a combat phase in which the unit charged more than 6 inches. All monsters could have D3 impact hits if they charged 6 inches or more into combat to represent their mass/bulk going into combat.
I vaugely remember the ogres were the only army that had impact hits, other than chariots, when they first came out which was unique to them. Now the rule has been "logically" expanded on to several other units throughout the game. Is the mass bulk largeness of MI best represented by 1 stomp per front rank model? Would impact hits for all MI and M be too over the top?

Scammel
28-08-2013, 21:10
I don't understand why ogres can get d3 impact hits whereas minotaurs only get 1.


They could well end up the same way, they were just written some time apart. Originally, Ogres had to travel over a certain distance to get impact hits at all and I think the chance of getting D3 per guy echoes back to that old requirement in a sense. Don't forget that the Mino characters do D3, too.


And I know that's been a while ago, but it was just the last week that I was looking at the bulk of crypt horrors and river trolls and wondering why they shouldn't get it.

Because they just sort of lumber in and swing. Impact hits are a kind of deliberate rugby tackle.

The bearded one
28-08-2013, 21:17
For ogres it really kinda is their "thing", to represent their gut-charge. They're one of the few monstrous infantry for whom impact hits are valid, considering their fluff and the manner in which they charge.

theunwantedbeing
28-08-2013, 22:11
So should this be standardized?
Makes sense that it should be.


Should all montrous infantry get a single impact hit?
Yup, and monsters should all do at least D3.
That said, stomps/thunderstomps are standardised already.


Should all monster get impact hits?
Yes.

The bearded one
28-08-2013, 22:20
Makes sense that it should be.


Yup, and monsters should all do at least D3.
That said, stomps/thunderstomps are standardised already.


Yes.

Could you elaborate on the reasoning? I can see some merit in it for some, but I wouldn't be that cheery to see hydra's and daemon princes with impact hits on top of how powerful they already are, and HPA's shouldnt have gotten them in the first place.

Artinam
28-08-2013, 22:23
I think minotaurs get their impact hits to represent them charging like a bull aka horns first.
But yeah standard impact maybe depending on the Toughness of the model (the bulk that slams into the enemy) would work and could give monsters a slight edge in being more useful.

Spiney Norman
28-08-2013, 22:25
Makes sense that it should be.


Yup, and monsters should all do at least D3.
That said, stomps/thunderstomps are standardised already.


Yes.

Sorry dude, but I disagree, I don't see why every monster or monstrous infantry should belly flop their way into combat.

On the other hand I think it would be appropriate to give standardised impact hits to cavalry/MC units, at least the non-fast cavalry kind, it just feels like the way cavalry charge into combat should be about bringing the weight of your mount to bear, rather than what we have currently where all your horse really does is improve your armour save and give you a bit more speed.



I think minotaurs get their impact hits to represent them charging like a bull aka horns first.
But yeah standard impact maybe depending on the Toughness of the model (the bulk that slams into the enemy) would work and could give monsters a slight edge in being more useful.

Uh right, yeah because monstrous units really need to be better than they are now, gee I really wish my under-powered demi-griff knights causes impact hits...

theunwantedbeing
28-08-2013, 22:29
Could you elaborate on the reasoning? I can see some merit in it for some, but I wouldn't be that cheery to see hydra's and daemon princes with impact hits on top of how powerful they already are, and HPA's shouldnt have gotten them in the first place.

Well when a big monster charges you, you either get out the way or get smooshed.
aka. impact hits

I'm deliberately ignoring the way it makes the broken things more broken. (daemon princes specifically, hydra's less so due to their low charge range and general ease of being killed these days)
You can't hate a general rule because the occasional units screws with the balance, you just don't abuse that unit...or play WAAC tournament battles and love them for being abusive.

Ideally, you'de need to have rolled high enough to get them when charging.
ie. 10"+

sulla
28-08-2013, 22:45
I don't understand why ogres can get d3 impact hits whereas minotaurs only get 1.

It made sense when minotaurs got it, but this whole ogre thing is making me question everything.

And I know that's been a while ago, but it was just the last week that I was looking at the bulk of crypt horrors and river trolls and wondering why they shouldn't get it.I don't think I'd put minos only getting a single impact hit as in the top 3 issues/improvements I'd make for them...

Cost, inability to make them core and lack of protection are far more important to me, as well as lack of any way to mitigate the forced overrun in an army with limited magic missile or shooting support. Basically, the only minotaurs that work in the beasts book are the character choices.

As to the impact/not impact hits question, where do you stop? Surely armoured warhorses should have impact hits too? If monstrous infantry get it, then monstrous cav and all monsters should too. Personally, I'm happy enough with the way it is now. Minos get impacts because they charge with their horns, ogres get impacts because they gut barge with their armoured bellies. All the rest dont because they don't need it and GW have invented fluff to justify it.

The bearded one
28-08-2013, 22:50
Well when a big monster charges you, you either get out the way or get smooshed.
aka. impact hits

There's truth in that, although there are a lot of monsters with whom I can't imagine them really 'impacting'. A giant for example, he doesn't really impact, but walks up to you and hits or kicks you, which just constitutes his regular attacks. A bastiladon is too slow to actually make an impacting charge, rather than just his regular attacks.

Malagor
28-08-2013, 22:57
Well the way it was explained to me and makes sense is that impact hits aren't just things that comes to a dead stop with a incredible force.
Mean if you look at chariots they don't come to a complete stop when they charged historically but rather went through the enemy units and caused damage as it passed through.
You can view impact hits in the same way. When a chariot came to an halt, it was usually dead meat which is when you can say the normal attacks starts to occur.
This explains why for example the skycutter gets impact hits, it's not because the boat crashes into a unit, it's because it's smacking them as they fly over them.
Same with the Hellpit, it's just rampaging through the enemy units and it's not until it comes cornered or halted that people can attack it.
Stonehorns, the same thing, charges head first and through units.

I do not know exactly how the big spider attacks but it might not actually charge in the same manner, same with the giant.
But yeah, impact hits to me and to the people in my area represent units that when they charge then they crashes into the ranks and go through them and only stops when the momentum runs out.

theunwantedbeing
28-08-2013, 22:59
There's truth in that, although there are a lot of monsters with whom I can't imagine them really 'impacting'. A giant for example, he doesn't really impact, but walks up to you and hits or kicks you, which just constitutes his regular attacks. A bastiladon is too slow to actually make an impacting charge, rather than just his regular attacks.

That's why it should be based on what is rolled for the charge.

Slow monsters won't do them very often, faster ones would.

outbreak
28-08-2013, 23:04
nah i see the impact hits as a deliberate tactic, ogres run at you and whack you with their guts or fall on you, minotaurs charge like bulls. Things like giants shouldn't have them as they are ungainly and don't build up the speed to really run through people. Their not trying to either their trying to whack you. Abombs shouldn't have it either but I guess maybe that thing builds up speed and just crashes into anything. Personally I think anything causing impact hits should also take a dangerous terrain test to account for the risk of getting tangled up or hurting yourself running into a spear point or something.

Greatwhitenorth
28-08-2013, 23:06
I always never understood how MI such as ogres were able to gain impact hits against monsters say a stegadon or arachnarok. Kind of off topic but, I view that as a child running into an adult. If something is much bigger then you I don't care how proud you are of your gut, he is the heavyweight in this fight. Just a thought I always had when I see ogre impact hits kill some monster before combat.

MLP
29-08-2013, 00:34
I always never understood how MI such as ogres were able to gain impact hits against monsters say a stegadon or arachnarok. Kind of off topic but, I view that as a child running into an adult. If something is much bigger then you I don't care how proud you are of your gut, he is the heavyweight in this fight. Just a thought I always had when I see ogre impact hits kill some monster before combat.

I agree with this, it's definitely silly that impact hits aren't scaled. It should be something like:

Impact hits from monsters and chariots affect all units
Impact hits from MC and MB affect everything but monsters
Impact hits from MI and anything else affect only Infantry, Cavalry, Warbeasts and swarms

And stomps should be something similar.

Lord Solar Plexus
29-08-2013, 09:26
Actually, impact hits should not exist except for the smallest fraction of units. The concept as such makes no sense at all.

Historically, neither cavalry nor knights (which is something entirely else) nor chariots were ever consciously used as battering rams except against single, isolated or fleeing fighters, or in desparate situations (e.g., a British Lieutenant in Persia deliberately and suicidally let his horse jump into a square and fall down upon the men, and broke it). The collision with enemy cavalry/knights or a sufficiently deep line of infantry would nearly automatically be fatal for the rider and / or his mount. Even if they were not wounded, the chance to fall and be buried under the horse or momentarily disoriented and incapable of defending yourself must have been high.

Chariots where used to quickly get into range, fire a lot of shots and withdraw, or to run rings around slower armies from settled populations without the ability to catch them. They were furthermore a symbol of status and to impress both spectators as well as enemies, and as such adorned with more terrifying than practical blades. Scythes are to the side, you need room to use them, and you need to get extremely close, all the while the softest part is at the front where any supposed impact will occur.

If impact hits are used at all, they should backfire. Of course you can run into a guy and ram him but the kinetic energy is the same for both parties. If you're drastically tougher, that might not be a problem per se but if not, you could as well run into a wall.

MLP
29-08-2013, 10:05
Chariots where used to quickly get into range, fire a lot of shots and withdraw, or to run rings around slower armies from settled populations without the ability to catch them. They were furthermore a symbol of status and to impress both spectators as well as enemies, and as such adorned with more terrifying than practical blades. Scythes are to the side, you need room to use them, and you need to get extremely close, all the while the softest part is at the front where any supposed impact will occur.

I always thought that about chariots in warhammer, it does seem a bit silly how they work now: Charge in, impact hits, chop away at enemy for a turn or two if you don't break them. In real life it would be: charge in, horse gets scared/killed by blocked infantry, riders dragged off and killed.

I always thought chariots should have rules similar to hexwraiths where they can go through or alongside an enemy unit and inflict some casualties. If they end up in combat they should die.

Lordsaradain
29-08-2013, 10:41
Should all montrous infantry get a single impact hit?

Should all monster get impact hits?




No, I don't think so. But the point cost of units that do have impacts hits should be increased accordingly compared to similar units without impact hits.

Captain Collius
29-08-2013, 13:27
I agree with this, it's definitely silly that impact hits aren't scaled. It should be something like:

Impact hits from monsters affect all units
Impact hits from MC and MB and chariots affect everything but monsters
Impact hits from MI and anything else affect only Infantry, Cavalry, Warbeasts and swarms

And stomps should be something similar.

Slight change its stupid that tomb king chariot can run over a dinosaur.

Captain Collius
29-08-2013, 13:42
Actually, impact hits should not exist except for the smallest fraction of units. The concept as such makes no sense at all.

Historically, neither cavalry nor knights (which is something entirely else) nor chariots were ever consciously used as battering rams except against single, isolated or fleeing fighters, or in desparate situations (e.g., a British Lieutenant in Persia deliberately and suicidally let his horse jump into a square and fall down upon the men, and broke it). The collision with enemy cavalry/knights or a sufficiently deep line of infantry would nearly automatically be fatal for the rider and / or his mount. Even if they were not wounded, the chance to fall and be buried under the horse or momentarily disoriented and incapable of defending yourself must have been high.

Chariots where used to quickly get into range, fire a lot of shots and withdraw, or to run rings around slower armies from settled populations without the ability to catch them. They were furthermore a symbol of status and to impress both spectators as well as enemies, and as such adorned with more terrifying than practical blades. Scythes are to the side, you need room to use them, and you need to get extremely close, all the while the softest part is at the front where any supposed impact will occur.

If impact hits are used at all, they should backfire. Of course you can run into a guy and ram him but the kinetic energy is the same for both parties. If you're drastically tougher, that might not be a problem per se but if not, you could as well run into a wall.

All Legitimate real world points....... Which makes them irrelevant.

IF you want historically accurate play historical games.

I agree impact hits are silly consider that if you put an oldblood with sacred stegadon helm on a carnosaur. All of a sudden this apex predator will lower its head like a battering ram and smash into the enemy.

Compare with a stegadon where impact hits are a part of its natural abilities. I Agree that sometimes impact hits seem a bit insane (see mournfangs and Skycutter chariots) So it is a fundamentally flawed concept in the real world but in the game it is an important part of the game.

Lord Solar Plexus
29-08-2013, 16:05
Good old Captain Collius, concise and to the point as always! ;)

I didn't see that restriction in the OP. The question was simply "Should or not". Consider my reasons icing, I consider them relevant. The game is inevitably based on reality, just like the apex predator concept, or horses being faster than men. The reverse would be silly just because it is unrealistic and no other in-game reason.

Therefore IH should IMO not be such an important part of the game as they are, and should not be standard issue for all monsters.

popisdead
29-08-2013, 16:37
No, it is a mechanic to represent a specific style of charge, otherwise everyone who charges could get one.

Captain Collius
29-08-2013, 17:53
Good old Captain Collius, concise and to the point as always! ;)

I didn't see that restriction in the OP. The question was simply "Should or not". Consider my reasons icing, I consider them relevant. The game is inevitably based on reality, just like the apex predator concept, or horses being faster than men. The reverse would be silly just because it is unrealistic and no other in-game reason.

Therefore IH should IMO not be such an important part of the game as they are, and should not be standard issue for all monsters.

Fair Points. I do believe I was on a tangent. To be fair that is where I often am.

And i actually agree with you basic premise. This is why I should never be allowed to post until the caffeine has kicked in and woken me up.

Also I must say your English is better than most Americans.

Hawkkf
29-08-2013, 18:24
I had some ideas for chariots. One option could be that impact hits are taken in lieu of normal attacks on the charge. Also in CC attacks should be scored against the T and Sv of the riders.
Another addition could be giving them fast cav and a version of hit and run that let's them pass through the unit.

Scammel
29-08-2013, 22:31
I always thought that about chariots in warhammer, it does seem a bit silly how they work now: Charge in, impact hits, chop away at enemy for a turn or two if you don't break them. In real life it would be: charge in, horse gets scared/killed by blocked infantry, riders dragged off and killed.


For a long time, this is by-and-large how they've worked in Warhammer. Charge in, enjoy initial success, get chopped to bits/seen off next turn without support. It's just that 8th has seen 'chariot creep', I'd argue. We've seen Gorebeasts, Ironblasters and Khannons take to the field and initially weak chariots like Wolf and Tiranocs can form units that are quite capable of pretty comprehensively destroying smaller units on the charge whilst soaking up a small handful number of wounds. The list of traditional, hard-hitting-yet-fragile chariots is growing to be relatively few in number - Boar, Tuskgor, White Lion, any others?

Tuttivillus
29-08-2013, 22:38
Just seems to me that the logic behind it is failing and it may be time to standardize it.

You sound like an European union :p

Lord Solar Plexus
30-08-2013, 07:42
Fair Points. I do believe I was on a tangent. To be fair that is where I often am.

And i actually agree with you basic premise. This is why I should never be allowed to post until the caffeine has kicked in and woken me up.

Also I must say your English is better than most Americans.

Haha, now you're flattering me! Very nice of you to say so. Btw, without my morning coffee, all my linguistic capabilities deteriorate fast!


You sound like an European union :p

Or like the ANSI!

Scythe
30-08-2013, 08:58
That's why it should be based on what is rolled for the charge.

Slow monsters won't do them very often, faster ones would.

I think a bulking monster like a Stegadon or Stonehorn charging into a unit is a lot more dangerous than a slender (but significantly faster) Griffon or Hyppogryph doing the same. Hence the current rules work for me. Monsters and Monstrous Infantry who deserve to get impact hits, based on a combination of their mass, weapons / spikes / horns, tactics and speed actually receive impact hits, while monsters who do not don't get it. The current system of judging every unit on a case by case basis is the best and most flexible approach in this regard.

theunwantedbeing
30-08-2013, 15:13
I think a bulking monster like a Stegadon or Stonehorn charging into a unit is a lot more dangerous than a slender (but significantly faster) Griffon or Hyppogryph doing the same.
It would be.
Mainly down to a higher base strength and not having to roll a minimum amount for their charge distance to inflict them.

FatTrucker
30-08-2013, 23:13
With the abom it seems mostly sheer bulk and speed. Its a giant worm covered in fists, heads, arms, legs, all working to propel it across the field potentially at the same speed as fast cav. Pretty sure a couple of dozen tons of thick hides and hazards crashing into a unit at the same speed as a charging horse is an impact hit.

Scythe
02-09-2013, 08:59
It would be.
Mainly down to a higher base strength and not having to roll a minimum amount for their charge distance to inflict them.

Well, the basic Stegadon has the same strength as a Griffon; not much difference there. Storm of Magic Griffons can even upgrade to S6 on the charge, putting it at the same level as the Stonehorn. Mass does not equal strength, after all. For me, the arguments of my original post still stand.

And why would they not have to roll a minimum amount for their charge distance if the rules for impact hits are standardized?

boli
02-09-2013, 09:59
I would remove impact hits from HPA, but add them to the Rat Ogres; too often my T4 / no armour ROs have died before striking and a volley of bowfire has rendered them stupid; the cost is extremely high for what you get if you compare them to other monstrous Infantry.

Yes I know its balanced with the skavenslave cost; I would just like the option to use my ROs instead of having them walking around as free victory points in a unit which isn't an 17 strong horde with general on bonebreaker :P

JuQ
05-09-2013, 09:26
IMO, the impact hits from the HPA are a drawback. If it didn't have impact hits it would be easier to use because you could move it towards your closest unit to avoid it going into the middle of the battlefield unsupported. Now if you want to do that it will make impact hits to your units. Sure you can deploy next to a slave unit to absorb them, but that is about 50 points you are adding to the HPA cost and the trouble of having a block just to babysit the HPA. And of course you cannot have it dealing impact hits to your guys, but not to the enemy, that would make no sense.