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NoodleDoodle
30-08-2013, 22:35
Hi

Using orcs n gobs and Repeatedly losing against a dwarf gun line, can anyone give any advice?

With a 2k army The paltry few remaining orcky types survivors who make the trek across the board get a serious can of whoop ass opened on them by the 2 or 3 large blocks of 40 or so core choice dwarf warriors with gw.

It's all gyro copter hell and my giant usually dies in turn 2. If I'm lucky.

For years I watched chaos have this problem against gun lines with 8th it seems the o&gs have the same prob.

Help.

Orc lord grim biggest surliest bad loser this side of the badlands

dementian
31-08-2013, 04:01
Give us a run down of your army list so we can suggest some play options. For instance what are you using as your warmachine hunters, how big are the units that you are using 40 Savage Orc Big uns could bring the pain if they make it to the Dwarf lines. Giant isn't generally considered a strong option, trading him for 9 trolls could be a good option.

m1acca1551
31-08-2013, 05:39
Welcome to fighting a dwarfen gun line mate :)

There is very little you are going to be able to do, msu watch as they are shot to the point where they simply run off the board, hordes? Watch as great gaps appear in your ranks and you unit numbers dwindle.

The only solution grit your teeth, scream waaagh and race across the board as quickly as possible and smash dem good. Dwarf players who castle behind a gun line know that they have to kill enough of your guys to make your units combat ineffective, as they have committed a great % of points into shooting, generally means there combat blocks are weaker also exploit that.

Don't say it can't be done, I've seen it done, had it done to me and done it myself, it hard and very stressful but ther is no better feeling than watching your units hack there way through dwarfen units and your opponents face as be can do anything after turn 3 with his guns :)

BigbyWolf
31-08-2013, 08:41
My advice would be to ask your opponent to stop playing with a gunline, every now and then is ok, but if he's doing it every game and winning that just shows a bit of a lack of sportsmanship. It's supposed to be an enjoyable experience for both parties.

King Arthur
31-08-2013, 08:58
Use chaf units such as small units of gobbos to shield yours boys for two turns or so or what I do is use my fast cavalry (mounted yeoman) to either reform end on end 10" in front of two war machines turn 1 that should give you respite for two turns from that annoying. Also does the giant often do much as he is a large point sink?

Spiney Norman
31-08-2013, 10:52
Get some wolf riders to zip up the field and engage those warmachines, Snagla leading spider riders is another option, but the wolfies will probably have an easier time of getting to the machines.

Next thing is to do your best to minimise casualties, I would also advise dropping the giant, he is probably the worse use of points in the current codex, although boar Boyz come pretty close. A big block of savage orcs with a shrunken head shaman is probably the best way to keep them alive. Make sure you keep an eye on where the range of his small-arms shooting at organ gun ends so you can avoid it as long as possible, then close the gap as quickly as possible, use hand of Gork to get your big scary units (I.e. the Bigguns) across the table as quick as you can.

Gobbo spells like itchy nuisance can potentially be useful against unit like quarrellers and hand gunners that roll to hit.

Most of all, don't be too discouraged if you do lose a lot of stuff by the time you've slogged across the table, gun line armies tend to fold up like a paper napkin when you get into combat with them, so even at half-strength an O&G army can give a dwarf gun line a run for its money in combat.


My advice would be to ask your opponent to stop playing with a gunline, every now and then is ok, but if he's doing it every game and winning that just shows a bit of a lack of sportsmanship. It's supposed to be an enjoyable experience for both parties.

You could try, but since its a dwarf army we're talking about here gun line is pretty much the only viable build they have, asking a dwarf player to run a combat oriented list is pretty much asking him to take an auto-lose, esp against orcs and goblins.

Sexiest_hero
31-08-2013, 14:34
Out gun him with lobbas and divas. That said Dwarf gunlines are boring nomatter who you play. Tell him you're not going to play the cheese.

excessiveswagger
01-09-2013, 10:30
Take two lobbas, six spear chukkas, two doom divers and snaggla grobbspit. Use your warmachines to counter fire at his. A direct hit with a rock lobba will insta kill one of his warmachines more often than not. Spear chukkas can also take them down with a couple of good shots.

After a couple of things of shooting snagla should arrive in the back lines. Use him to pick off any remaining warmachines. Then give the dwarf a taste of his own medicine as you shoot him to death as he tries to get at you

quaintrealist
02-09-2013, 12:34
Much as Spiney Normain says with a twist; I've faced quite a few Empire/Dwarf armies

1) Giants are fun but not great competitive choices. A gunline is their worst possible matchup (save maybe lizard skinks?). He's got to go.
2) Doom divers are sweet for counter-battery fire. You don't have to be able to see them, so their cannon can't shoot back. If he castles you can't miss.
3) Chariot spam scares gunlines

I've never found any sort of fast cav response effective; just a little bit of shooting and they're testing on their lousy goblin leadership to stick around.

Finally, if you're playing for grins and your opponent has a sense of humor, try the following. Take a huge block of night goblins with short bows, BSB with poison banner, goblin warboss for leadership (give him the ironcurse icon, it's fun!. Take at least 100 gobbos in this unit (I've played them 13 wide and 10 deep, really). Use a few trolls etc to keep stuff off your flanks. Park 16" away and melt said gunline, one unit per turn of shooting.

Ayin
04-09-2013, 02:34
Use fast cavalry, multiple units of it, threaten his warmachines, force him to use his guns on them.

Shield your combat blocks with Goblins, let them be shot, protect your orcs. A long string of goblins across the front of a unit or two of orcs deployed there and moving forward on your first turn, if it's still there when you get to his line, reform them and move outside.

Trolls are an alright choice, even just to get him to fire at you.

Make sure you have multiple large combat blocks. In your first post, you said the Dwarf player has 2 or 3 40 man blocks of Greatweapon Dwarf Warriors. Make sure your blocks can fight and beat that easily before shooting.

outbreak
04-09-2013, 23:04
As others said take a couple units of fast cav (spiders or wolves) take 40-50 savage orcs and orc boy big uns with additional hand weapons, add bsb and general (shaman with head if savages) to that unit, add some units of 50 night goblins with fanatics, then take 8-12 trolls, then a couple doom divers, rock lobber, some spear chukkas and your choice of pump wagons or mangler squigs.

Orien
08-09-2013, 19:25
I genuinely shocked to hear an OG player is complaining about facing a Dwarf gunline army with the sheer versatility available within the 8th edition army book. I previously played a campaign versus Dwarf and Empire armies with my OG army and had great success versus gunlines.

From what I can recall I had the following list (there or thereabouts):

Black Orc Warboss with Basha's Axe, Tal of Pres and Enchanted Shield - Bunkered in with 17 Blorcs ran 3 x 6 with Standard of Discipline
Lvl2 SO Shaman with Shrunken Head bunkered in with 29 SOBU's and AHW
Blorc Bigboss BSB with whatever kit suited my approach - bunkered in with 79 NGs, netters, 3 x fanatics etc
8 x Trolls
5 Boar riders with Orc Big boss
1 Orc Chariot
3 x 5 wolf riders with spears
2 x Manglers
2 x Doomdivers
1 Rocklobba
2 x 20 NG Archers with 3 fanatics each

Generally the plan was target saturation, everything advances at the same time, whilst the 3 Wolf units vanguard to set up for a legal charge when possible, against war machines, its more than likely that the dwarf player will be looking at your big uns, doom divers, manglers and trolls when prioritising his shooting, which meant that the wolf riders were left unharassed. As soon as possible get them into combat with the Dawi warmachines, they dont have to remove them, just occupy them, once the dawi has used his hatred up then combat is normally a prolonged bore draw, plenty of time for your units to move across the field with only having suffered 2 turns of shooting, mainly at your toys.

OG excel versus gunline!

NoodleDoodle
09-09-2013, 11:29
Just wanted to say a quick and genuine thanks to all the responses I received (even the negatives!). Very interesting to read everybody's posts and take in all this useful information. If I get a chance I will post up my army list from that time. It put me off playing the game for some time as I had no answers, also not playing enough of 8th edition at that time didn't help matters.
So in summary:-
The giant goes
I take doom divers/rock lobbas for counter battery fire
Trolls are in
Gobbos with tiny bows are in (and poison the mischievous gits!)

I seem to recall my army had at least 4 fast cav units (spider riders and wolf riders) but these always got chewed up and panicked by bolt throwers with various nasty rune combos. So i don't think that tactic works on its own... i know if he is firing at my fc then he isnt firing at my biguns so... i like the screening idea - hope that will work and no hills.. Gobbo horde shooting will be good.

Obviously I will have to try all this and report back..

lastly anyone want to tell me how to beat those large blocks of core dwarf warriors with gw. With the new rules am I not going to lose combats - even with s/orc bigun's with ahw? Not a big diff in price either- s/orc bigun's with ahw are 11 points think that is the cost of a dwarf warrior with gw but he will wound on a 3+ i will wound on a 4+. also he will get an as, i wont! I will get more attacks i know!

Lastly lastly does anyone else agree dwarf organ guns are seriously op?

Thanks again

Horace35
09-09-2013, 12:15
Personally I would put together some scenery so he doesn't have a free-for-all on all your units and opt for multiple lobbers & doom divers.

Ayin
09-09-2013, 17:00
I seem to recall my army had at least 4 fast cav units (spider riders and wolf riders) but these always got chewed up and panicked by bolt throwers with various nasty rune combos. So i don't think that tactic works on its own... i know if he is firing at my fc then he isnt firing at my biguns so... i like the screening idea - hope that will work and no hills.. Gobbo horde shooting will be good.

Shouldn't your Fast cav be fairly resilient to Bolt Throwers? Dwarven bolt throwers don't get multi-shot, so as long as you keep good positioning they should only be able to kill one Rider per shot, with a basic 5 that means no panic on the first kill. Also, remember that even if all but one Wolf Rider is killed, he's still worth his points, and as long as there are two of them they still rally at a good leadership. Feel free to put them in sceening positions infront of your orcs (and with normal Goblins as well), as if you flee through of course there is no panic.




lastly anyone want to tell me how to beat those large blocks of core dwarf warriors with gw. With the new rules am I not going to lose combats - even with s/orc bigun's with ahw? Not a big diff in price either- s/orc bigun's with ahw are 11 points think that is the cost of a dwarf warrior with gw but he will wound on a 3+ i will wound on a 4+. also he will get an as, i wont! I will get more attacks i know!


Well, Savage Orc Big'uns would be S5 on the first turn, as would Dwarfs with Great Weapons (though I think Long Beards would be S6). He would have 5+AS, which you would ignore on your first turn, and turn into 6+ thereafter, whereas his weapons never ignore your your Wardsave. He hits you on 3's, you have AHW and Frenzy bonuses on the first rank, and you go first. Assuming equal numbers and max possible attacks from each side:

Dwarfs- 30 Attacks, 20 hits, 26 with hatred, 22 wounds, 6 saves = 16 dead Orcs
Orcs-50 attacks, 25 hits, 16 wounds, no saves = 16 dead Dwarfs.

Those are very rounded numbers, but the casualties are pretty even on both sides. Second round you lose the Choppa bonus, he loses hatred, but left out of the above is that you strike first (a rare thing indeed!), so if you can kill his numbers down enough to lower the attacks he gets, seems like a good win for you. This is leaving out characters on both sides, but i think they would come out even (especially with yours giving you the Shrunken Head and doubling your succesfull saves!)

Dark Aly
09-09-2013, 17:02
Do you play scenarios from the rule book at all? They can mess up gunlines quite effectively and can often be more fun than pitched battle, but beware of battle for the pass.

Oogie boogie boss
09-09-2013, 17:19
lastly anyone want to tell me how to beat those large blocks of core dwarf warriors with gw. With the new rules am I not going to lose combats - even with s/orc bigun's with ahw? Not a big diff in price either- s/orc bigun's with ahw are 11 points think that is the cost of a dwarf warrior with gw but he will wound on a 3+ i will wound on a 4+. also he will get an as, i wont! I will get more attacks i know!


Remember, in the first round those SO Big 'Uns will be ST5 due to the choppa rule, so you'll be wounding his GW warriors on 3's and they won't get a save. He'll of course be re-rolling misses in the first round due to Hatred, but the fact you have three attacks and you're both hitting on 4's should mean that you'll be winning that combat by a healthy margin. The key is making sure that unit and your other hammers get in relatively intact.

To this end you need screening units such as Wolf/Spider Riders or maybe even sacrificial gobbo units, and to attempt to silence his artillery with counter battery fire and or magic. Also, Squig Hoppers make good screening units as they're immune to psych (and therefore won't run aware from fire-induced casualties and as skirmishers are that much more difficult to hit for BS shooting. Plus, because of the random movement any Quarreller/Thunderer unit won't get a stand and shoot reaction.

Trolls are another great shielding unit due to regen and their ability to potentially stop cannon balls dead, plus they can do damage. However, watch out for fire-runed artillery pieces. One hit from that and your troll horde can disappear in a single shooting round.

As for Giants, against a true gunline there's no point taking one, especially in games under 2,500pts I'm afraid to say. I'm a big fan of the Giant and consider it tragically underrated, but against a really shooty army one just won't cut it. However, two or more in a 2,500pts+ game can work wonders. Even if neither survive to combat, it takes proportionately more firepower to down both, and every shot directed at them is a shot not going into your combat blocks. And if your opponent ignores them, then you've got two monsters ready to smash some artillery. Admittedly, it's a 400pts sink into what is effectively a distraction, so you have to make up your own mind whether you think it's worth it.

As for the Organ Gun, it is nasty. Never underestimate the only multi-shot war machine which doesn't need to roll to hit. If you can, magic it to death ASAP. I had one chew up an entire 8-strong unit of SO Boar Boy Big 'Uns once. Painful.

More generally though, my advice is don't give up. Gunlines are just part of the game, and there are ways around any list. If it's really getting to you though and sucking the fun out of playing, just ask your opponent if he wouldn't mind mixing it up a bit and trying a different list. Even offer to swap armies for a game! One of the best ways to ind out the weakness of an army or list is to play with it.

Anyway, hope this helps and good luck smashin' dem stunties!

Montegue
09-09-2013, 19:21
Greetings,

I play dwarfs, and tend to play against OnG a lot. I can tell you the following, based on my experiences.

1) Savage Orc Big Uns, XHW, and a Shaman with the Head will delete any unit a Dwarf player can field very quickly. Put 40 bodies in there and you should be fine. Dwarfs can't redirect this frenzied unit well, so it's a great way to smash them. It's a *must break* target for war machines, and the Shrunken head will take many of those Grudge Thrower and Organ Gun hits away.

2) Target Saturation. OnG excells at this. If you have solid units of Trolls, a monster (Spider, for example), Two or three nasty infantry blocks, a war machine or two, some fast cav...I have to kill *all* of it or I'm in trouble.

3) Small units of spider riders can't stomp our artillery. Don't bother. Even with poison attacks, they will get defeated and will flee. However, OnG has a lot of other options. Use them.

4) Hand of Gork can be the worst possible spell to go off for the dwarf player early in the game. You can use it to puck up that spider and place it in a position to flank on the following turn, or to go after war machines. You can use it to pop your gobbos down and run fanatics across the entirety of his gun line. You can do so many utterly aweful things to a dwarf's plans with that spell. You will need to six dice it and suck up a miscast, but you can do that. Your shaman and his buddies have a 5+ ward save, remember?

You have access to essentially everything. You can arrange your units to be less vulnerable to Orc randomness by sticking bare bones black orc heroes in units. you have good magic, good shooting, good movement, and excellent close combat.

dementian
10-09-2013, 03:00
For the sake of completeness. Due to some mixed up numbers from above.

A unit of SOBU hitting a unit of Dwarf Warriors with great weapons should (Assuming 50 attacks from 30 SOBU) do 16.67 wounds. The Dwarf Warriors striking back (Assuming they still have 30 models after suffering 16.67 wounds) should average 10 wounds to you.

With a little reverse calculations. To match the Dwarf warriors in kills you only need 10 SOBU in base contact...That should give you an idea of how boss SOBU are haha.

Lord Inquisitor
10-09-2013, 03:23
Best thread title I've seen in a while. :)

For my part, if you're playing against a lot of war machines my solution would be: take as many goblin heroes on wolves as necessary to kill his war machines. At 2500 you could have 13.

NoodleDoodle
12-09-2013, 10:50
Sorry to keep banging the drum here, but my cheeses beared opponent always set up his dwarves with a front of 5 for max ranks.. Meaning my horde unit would do less wounds overall. Still the math hammer above looks good! Bit worried about being out manoeuvred by dwarves( yes I said it!) no steadfast no ranks would make for closer battles.

In answer to an earlier post he would set up with bolt throwers far in the corners thus enabling flanking shots on horde units and gobbo's wolf riders - with rune of penetrating I think it was it would skewer me tribe!! Also gyro copters are anti fanatic machines. Whirling death meets whirling death (literally for my gobbo's)! I think there should be some consequence in the rules whereby my fanatic gets caught in the blades and scatters 4d6!!

Never the less I will take all these ideas on board and I'm currently putting together my next tribe.

Thanks to all!

AM1640
12-09-2013, 19:38
I see alot of take this don't take that advice, but not so much tactical advice.
What scenarios did you play? How much terrain was on the board?
What plans do you have for each unit, or is it just whatever gets there fight a dwarf?
A couple of fast cav against a gunline can work, but against dwarves they are largely a waste. 5 wolf riders charge a dwarf gun, maybe do a wound and lose 2 or 3 in return, not good.
What kind of anti-magic did your opponent tend to take, chances are you aren't going to get anything cast, so try not taking a shaman.
Put small units of NG with a couple of fanatics in front of your Orc units and running at the dwarf line, who cares in the gobbos run and it might put some fanatics into the dwarf unit. You can be really gross and walk the NG unit behind a massive unit of savage orc bug uns. When the savages get charged (if that happens) the fanatics will pop out go through the orcs and land inside the dwarf unit, doing extra damage to it.
How many combat units do you normally take? How do you deploy them on the table, are you able to set it up where you can charge a flank? How do you deploy? Is it a long line all across the table or have you tried loading everything on 1 side.

Gurrfang
12-09-2013, 20:24
Most cost effective thing you can try is double rock lobbers. Those machines do remarkably well for their points value, and if your opponent worships during he'll most likely direct some for toward your big tough machine.

The other things orcs excel at is the amount of units they can field, this can give you an advantage on setup as you can configure your forces for a strong flanking maneuver.

Ayin
12-09-2013, 23:08
If an opponent puts down throw away war machines on the flanks, throw away fast cav are a good choice to go after them. Vanguard move gets you awfully close, straight on facing means he can only kill 1 with one shot, will take at least two turns for that bolt thrower on it's own to cause a panic check, and you charging with spears should give you the win on it, or at least tie it up a turn or tow. Beware of crossfire from one to the other, but with other units and terrain in the center of the board, shouldn't be a problem.

NoodleDoodle
27-09-2013, 06:38
I see alot of take this don't take that advice, but not so much tactical advice.
What scenarios did you play? How much terrain was on the board?
What plans do you have for each unit, or is it just whatever gets there fight a dwarf?
A couple of fast cav against a gunline can work, but against dwarves they are largely a waste. 5 wolf riders charge a dwarf gun, maybe do a wound and lose 2 or 3 in return, not good.
What kind of anti-magic did your opponent tend to take, chances are you aren't going to get anything cast, so try not taking a shaman.
Put small units of NG with a couple of fanatics in front of your Orc units and running at the dwarf line, who cares in the gobbos run and it might put some fanatics into the dwarf unit. You can be really gross and walk the NG unit behind a massive unit of savage orc bug uns. When the savages get charged (if that happens) the fanatics will pop out go through the orcs and land inside the dwarf unit, doing extra damage to it.
How many combat units do you normally take? How do you deploy them on the table, are you able to set it up where you can charge a flank? How do you deploy? Is it a long line all across the table or have you tried loading everything on 1 side.

Sorry for the delayed response, I've been painting figures ha-ha!

I wanted to reply and answer to the questions above - we played battle line. Very little terrains normally, although if I played again I would try and insist on rolling for 1d6+4 pieces to be set..I think.
Whatever was left would fight but, 1 or 2 orcs vs 40 dwarves I think I just shook hands!!
As you say my fast cav would be largely ineffectual.
I like the idea of not taking a shaman and putting gobbo's behind orcs - sneaky!

My very last game I tried loading 1side with as much as possible. I think this ploy was countered with an organ gun.

Do you think the dwarves need a new rule book? Will they get all those gross runes nerfed?


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Horace35
27-09-2013, 09:50
I would absolutely insist on terrain and other scenarios would probably be beneficial to you also.

If they just leave a war machine out on its own on the flank you should be able to take that down pretty quickly. Perhaps an Orc with a magic carpet may help or as Lord inquisitor said, many Wolf heroes

What does his list usually consist of? I would also have a quick look at his rune combinations and make sure they are all legal

minionboy
29-09-2013, 00:02
Just a random question, but how are you placing terrain? If you follow the rules in the book you should be able to place walls, woods, and other cover up the field to help. If you're playing on a fairly open field, then a firing line army is going to have a big advantage.

Using things like wolf rider screens (a unit of 5, 1x5, deployed sideways will give you a 10" wall of hard cover. Since they're fast cav they can basically advance sideways up the field to give you cover. It's kinda gimmicky, but hey, so is a Dwarf gun line.

Black Hoof
03-10-2013, 13:42
1. Make new movement trays that are heavy.
2. Magnetize your bases and trays.
3. From your side of the table, either by pretending it's accidental or, in true orc fashion, brazenly and openly start occasionally lifting up your end of the table and tilting the battlefield until dwarfs start free falling.

Maybe that'll teach him to advance a bit away from his previously comfy table edge.

Honestly though, if this is your buddy, why don't you try the old "Want to switch armies for a game?" approach. Maybe he'll realize he could make a funner list for your battles.