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Sotek
02-09-2013, 19:07
Just wondering if any Warseerers partake of 'Vitamin N'?

blackcherry
02-09-2013, 19:11
The odd cigar when I've had a really good couple of months.

Fizzy
02-09-2013, 19:45
Even though my whole family smokes I dont. People can smoke if they want but not next to me. I lost my great grandmother to smoking so since then I promised not to smoke :)

Zingraff
02-09-2013, 19:46
Cigars and pipe tobacco.

I rarely smoke more often than three times each week, and pipe more frequently than cigars, which I typically reserve for when I go out, or nice weather. I've never smoked cigarettes, and I never understood the appeal of the sort of wet snuff we have in Scandinavia, but I have smoked cigars semi-regularly for 14 years, since I was 18 years old.

Smoking doesn't really offend me, unless I'm having a meal.

Scaryscarymushroom
02-09-2013, 21:24
I am surrounded by smokers, and I don't like it. But, a cigarette alone isn't usually enough to prevent me from spending time near a person. But whenever I am around Cigars or cigarillos, I get a bit of a headache, so I don't usually hang around if the cigars come out. (Could be that I've never been around any good ones.)

I used to work in the theatre industry, and, at least in the US, it is rife with smokers. It's really high-stress. During rehearsals, Union regulations require either a 5 minute break every 55 minutes, or a 10 minute break every 80 minutes. When 2/3 of the people in the building use those 5-10 minutes to smoke, it's hard to socialize without tolerating it.

Also, I find this deliciously ironic: about half of the people working in the kitchen at Whole Foods, a store known for its health-conscious attitude, smoke.

Dylius
02-09-2013, 22:04
Smoking is one of my pet peeves. I can't stand the smell of it!

Having said that, I'm far too polite to actually say anything about it in person, but I try to avoid smokers (only when they're actually smoking) if I can.

Caiphas Cain
02-09-2013, 23:22
I don't smoke and I dislike the smell. Smoking *other* is quite common here, so it's not easy to avoid completely.

Sotek
02-09-2013, 23:22
I am surrounded by smokers, and I don't like it. But, a cigarette alone isn't usually enough to prevent me from spending time near a person. But whenever I am around Cigars or cigarillos, I get a bit of a headache, so I don't usually hang around if the cigars come out. (Could be that I've never been around any good ones.)

I used to work in the theatre industry, and, at least in the US, it is rife with smokers. It's really high-stress. During rehearsals, Union regulations require either a 5 minute break every 55 minutes, or a 10 minute break every 80 minutes. When 2/3 of the people in the building use those 5-10 minutes to smoke, it's hard to socialize without tolerating it.

Also, I find this deliciously ironic: about half of the people working in the kitchen at Whole Foods, a store known for its health-conscious attitude, smoke.

A bit like the high rate of nurses and medical interns who smoke!

El_Machinae
03-09-2013, 00:35
I find the casual acceptance of cigarette butt litter to be frustrating.

Fizzy
03-09-2013, 01:11
I find the casual acceptance of cigarette butt litter to be frustrating.

This. I see small kids pick them up from sandboxes and eat them. I even see animals choking on them.

Sotek
03-09-2013, 01:25
I find the casual acceptance of cigarette butt litter to be frustrating.

That irriates me no end. Or pregnant women smoking, or smoking while pushing pushchairs or around small children.

Hellebore
03-09-2013, 02:22
Can't stand the smell of cigarettes and have never smoked anything.

My father smoked up until a few years before I was born when he discovered the cigarettes were actually hazardous to your health and the companies that made them knew this. Quit cold turkey in anger and hasn't picked one up since.

My vote would be between 'death to smokers' and 'I don't mind it'. I don't hate smokers, I just want them to be considerate of people who don't smoke. Many of my friends are smokers... :shifty:

Hellebore

underhivetrader
03-09-2013, 02:44
I like a smoke, and i have some pipes mainly cobbs. I cant stand smoking in cars tho. Thats a line i cant cross in my mind. Only a savage would smoke in his car! Weird huh?

Sent from my GT-S7500T using Tapatalk 2

Bloodknight
03-09-2013, 07:27
I smoke about 25 thin self-rolled a day, mostly because I don't like filter cigarettes much and self-rolled are much cheaper here. I am thinking about switching to steaming, though (doesn't stink, no smoke that's hazardous for other people) and then quitting at some point.

blackcherry
03-09-2013, 08:39
I find the casual acceptance of cigarette butt litter to be frustrating.

That is frustrating. Thankfully its not too bad here due to some of the local councils initiatives, but you go anywhere big and it flares up again, especially around the entrances of places like train stations. I think in general in the UK people smoke a lot less these days though.

AsleepByDay
03-09-2013, 10:26
Personally I'd love to ban smoking.

One of my friends had the suggestion of forcing all tobacco products to be rebranded along the lines on "Cancer causing stick", "Instant impotence" etc and then enforcing harsh penalties on any store that sold the products if the customer didn't state the correct name out loud when purchasing them. That seemed a highly amusing.

Bloodknight
03-09-2013, 10:49
Tbh, I wouldn't mind banning smoking either. Means our society doesn't have any more pressing problems at the moment.



That is frustrating. Thankfully its not too bad here due to some of the local councils initiatives, but you go anywhere big and it flares up again, especially around the entrances of places like train stations.

It's a lot less over here since most public dustbins have an ash tray, no reason to snuff them out by foot. That said, I don't mind it too much because it's a problem that can be solved with one sweep of a broom - or rain -, unlike graffiti which makes every neighbourhood instantly look like a slum.
It's why I hate living in a city, you take one turn from the main road and it looks like someone is going to steal your shoes.

MOMUS
03-09-2013, 11:39
I like a smoke. I treat it as drinking, something I will do to relax/with friends but not every day.

zoggin-eck
03-09-2013, 11:46
Nope. Nothing really against it (I don't eat well enough to have any moral health objection to it!), but it's just one of those things I don't "get". I tried it a few times when I was younger to see, but it's something that makes no sense to me. I've had too many co-workers (that doesn't mean everyone!) abuse it during work, so it's easy to get a negative feeling towards it, I guess. My suggestion that I deserve multiple ice-cream breaks has never gone down well :(

I also couldn't justify the money spent in the case of heavy smokers, and this is coming from a wargamer! Those lollies we had when I was a kid that were cigarette shaped with red tips were awesome though.

inq.serge
03-09-2013, 11:49
I'd be into 420 if it weren't for my throat, which can't stand smoke. Heck, I even get nauseous by scented candles.
I don't mind smokers as long as they're not blowing any smoke in my general direction.

Death to all scented candles.

blackcherry
03-09-2013, 11:51
Tbh, I wouldn't mind banning smoking either. Means our society doesn't have any more pressing problems at the moment.




It's a lot less over here since most public dustbins have an ash tray, no reason to snuff them out by foot. That said, I don't mind it too much because it's a problem that can be solved with one sweep of a broom - or rain -, unlike graffiti which makes every neighbourhood instantly look like a slum.
It's why I hate living in a city, you take one turn from the main road and it looks like someone is going to steal your shoes.

Well the ash tray/bin thing is something that is all over the UK too. Its a case that a lot of councils don't tend to enforce it on private land. As most of the train stations tend to have the land owned by a private company, no bits are there. Its happening slowly though, thanks to the ban on indoor smoking in 'enclosed areas'. I tend to like some of the graffiti too, with parts of Bristol that would look drab and run down invigorated thanks to co-operation between graffiti artists and the local councils.

There was a great tunnel just outside of the main station in Brussels, where a graffiti artist has drawn a design that makes it feel like you are entering the Warp :)

Bloodknight
03-09-2013, 11:53
I tried it a few times when I was younger to see, but it's something that makes no sense to me.

Be glad the few times didn't get you hooked. I went from a cigarette a month to a packet a day in a year.

Foolish Mortal
03-09-2013, 12:25
I voted 'Can't stand it - death to smokers', but my opinion is not quite that extreme. :)

I don't like cigarette smoke, and don't want to be around people who are smoking, or go to places were smoking is allowed, but if people want to smoke that's their business - I won't try to stop them or lecture them about it, it's not my place to do that.

El_Machinae
03-09-2013, 13:09
That said, if we can change it a bit, socially, smoking might be of net benefit to me.

Firstly, I strongly suspect that nicotine is a nootropic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nootropic) for some people. There's probably a gradient for how much people will benefit, but there might be people who actually benefit, cognitively. We need more smarter people. Intelligence and education is what changes the world.

Additionally, because we all (eventually) get cancer, contemporaries of mine who smoke are likely to get lung cancer about 20 years before I do. This will make them desperate guinea pigs for all the new fangled cancer drugs. Hopefully, by the time I need those drugs, they'll be off-patent (and thus cheaper) and a lot of the kinks in their usage will be shaken out. Thanks guys!

Bloodknight
03-09-2013, 13:15
Additionally, because we all (eventually) get cancer, contemporaries of mine who smoke are likely to get lung cancer about 20 years before I do. This will make them desperate guinea pigs for all the new fangled cancer drugs. Hopefully, by the time I need those drugs, they'll be off-patent (and thus cheaper) and a lot of the kinks in their usage will be shaken out. Thanks guys!

Fantastic! I laughed. And yes, we all will get cancer, no matter how healthy we live. The question is just if another disease or an accident will kill us first, but the DNA copying mechanism gets worse while we age and at roughly 100-110 years almost everybody will have developed cancer anyhow.

Sotek
03-09-2013, 14:51
That said, if we can change it a bit, socially, smoking might be of net benefit to me.
Firstly, I strongly suspect that nicotine is a nootropic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nootropic) for some people. There's probably a gradient for how much people will benefit, but there might be people who actually benefit, cognitively. We need more smarter people. Intelligence and education is what changes the world.


It's is simultaneously a stimulant, a relaxant and antidepressant without the negatives of say caffeine or anti-depressant medication.

blackcherry
03-09-2013, 15:11
It's is simultaneously a stimulant, a relaxant and antidepressant without the negatives of say caffeine or anti-depressant medication.

Well, apart from the increased chance of cancer and what the tar does to you. ;)

cornonthecob
03-09-2013, 16:36
Fantastic! I laughed. And yes, we all will get cancer, no matter how healthy we live. The question is just if another disease or an accident will kill us first, but the DNA copying mechanism gets worse while we age and at roughly 100-110 years almost everybody will have developed cancer anyhow.

What are your thoughts on the so called 'cures for cancer' then ? Impossible or just something that's not quite in reach ?


Well, apart from the increased chance of cancer and what the tar does to you. ;)

How do Electronic cigarettes do then, don't they circumnavigate the whole tar concept just giving you the nicotine ?

Scaryscarymushroom
03-09-2013, 16:41
I smoke about 25 thin self-rolled a day, mostly because I don't like filter cigarettes much and self-rolled are much cheaper here. I am thinking about switching to steaming, though (doesn't stink, no smoke that's hazardous for other people) and then quitting at some point.

My fiancee's parents recently started vaping. They wanted to quit smoking, and thought that it would be a good way out. Since it's just vapor and not smoke, they are okay with doing it inside. In the kitchen, the living room, the car... Now I never see them without the nicotine stick in their hands. They've probably doubled or tripled their nicotine intake since they "quit" smoking. And, because of the apparently safer inhalation method and the candylike berry flavoring, their daughter has tried nicotine for the first time.

I'm glad that they've stopped smoking cigarettes, but honestly their smoking habit was a little less intrusive because smoking is dirtier, more heavily regulated, and less socially acceptable and so they mostly kept it to themselves. Honestly, their current Mary Jane habit is less intrusive than their eCigarettes. But their family is strange about the whole social interaction thing. When someone pointed out that the vapor isn't dangerous second-hand, my soon-to-be-father-in-law made a joke out of it and blew vapor in his daughter's face.

The first and only time I tried a cigarette it was a Clove. I took one drag after running the sound equipment for a particularly disastrous performance of the Music Man. Then I hopped in my car, and about five minutes later I was craving another drag. The adrenaline rush kicked in, my breathing went shallow, my heart started pumping much harder, and I had a hard time focusing on the road. In that moment I realized just how easy it was to get addicted. A few seconds later I calmed down some, but I wasn't able to completely put it out of my mind until about a week later.

BigbyWolf
03-09-2013, 16:48
Not "smoked" since January. I used one of the smaller e-cigs (the ones that look like a cigarette) for a while but have recently switched to an "e-cig wizard" kit which uses a large number of flavoured nicotine-based solutions, and is much more effective than the others I was using. Far cheaper too (and way, WAY cheaper than the actual cigarettes). It's not as off-putting as normal cigarettes, in that it doesn't make my house or clothes stink, and I use it a lot less than I would normal ones.

I tend to treat it like I would standard tobacco (going outside if in a public place, not using it around those that don't smoke etc) One big misconception is that it's a way to stop smoking, which it kind of isn't, it's more a "healthier" replacement. I use the inverted commas as I'm still poisoning myself with nicotine, and it's not really been round long enough for long-term health issues to arise. All I know is that I feel healthier and can definitely feel increased lung capacity when I exert myself.

In a month or so I intend to move on to the nicotine-free solutions and see if I can quit altogether on those.

Lars Porsenna
03-09-2013, 17:56
To be frank, having had 2 family members suffer catastrophic health issues due to smoking (my dad had a heart attack aggrivated by smoking, and my grandmother died of complications from lung cancer), I will never, ever touch the stuff, avoid smokers like the plague (I make them go outside away from me if it is at my house, or remove myself if it isn't), and really can't understand anyone that would want to partake, considering the suffering I saw it cause. IMHO YMMV.

Damon.

Angelwing
03-09-2013, 19:51
Non smoker here. I really dislike the smell, the nasty brown stains, the litter it produces, the idea that smokers have that they are entitled to 'cigarette breaks' in addition to normal breaks, and the general disappointment when I see an attractive woman spark up.
I do really enjoy the public smoking bans, but I would certainly be vocal against banning smoking in private places.

However: I don't 'hate' smokers, just prefer that they do it somewhere else. I don't tolerate it in my house, but I don't mind them having a puff in my back garden. There is also a particular brand of cigarette that actually smells really nice. I have deliberately not enquired as to what brand it is. There is also a bit of an oddity: Some people can pull of the look of smoking, making it seem cool, in character or sexy. Most smokers don't.

Lothlanathorian
03-09-2013, 20:11
the idea that smokers have that they are entitled to 'cigarette breaks' in addition to normal breaks

If you live in the US, they aren't. If they get a 'smoke break', then the employer is required to give non-smokers an equal number of equal length breaks.

Sotek
04-09-2013, 00:20
I don't tolerate it in my house, but I don't mind them having a puff in my back garden. There is also a particular brand of cigarette that actually smells really nice.

Hell I don't even smoke my pipe in the house! Chilling on the balcony with my laptop and pipe watching the evening sunset is pretty relaxing.

Bloodknight
04-09-2013, 08:03
Thanks, Scaryscarymushroom and BigbyWolf.
At the moment I'm not really looking for a way to quit, but a non-stinking replacement first and foremost. I've been a smoker for 20 years and I don't think my mucous membranes are taking it too well, so vapor is probably a good step in the other direction until I reach a moment in my life in which I'm content enough with it to get rid of nasty habits ^^.


and blew vapor in his daughter's face.


Lame.


tend to treat it like I would standard tobacco (going outside if in a public place, not using it around those that don't smoke etc)

Sounds like a good plan.


The adrenaline rush kicked in, my breathing went shallow, my heart started pumping much harder, and I had a hard time focusing on the road.

Clove cigarettes and Kretek tend to be on the strong side. The nasty thing about being addicted to it is that those effects don't happen at all anymore after only a couple of weeks of consuming. You're basically just smoking so you don't get annoyed, and getting away from it is hard, thus my looking at an alternative that works, which chewing gum and patches don't do for me.


If you live in the US, they aren't. If they get a 'smoke break', then the employer is required to give non-smokers an equal number of equal length breaks.
My experience with that is that people who don't smoke just spend the same amount of time around the water cooler, chatting up the secretary, drinking coffee or doing whatever the smokers do when they're outside and talk to each other. The difference in those, let's call it mini-breaks, is that the non-smokers just idle less conspicuously because they don't leave the building. That said, as a boss I would just tolerate it because keeping smokers from smoking leads to worse results of their work and the non-smokers enjoy their regular 5 minute "bathroom/coffee/reading stuff on the internet/gossiping/staring at "insert hot female colleague/delivery dude" 's ass breaks" just as much. After all, people aren't meant to be fully concentrating on something for more than 10 minutes anyhow, attention span and such.

Lothlanathorian
04-09-2013, 08:20
My experience with that is that people who don't smoke just spend the same amount of time around the water cooler, chatting up the secretary, drinking coffee or doing whatever the smokers do when they're outside and talk to each other. The difference in those, let's call it mini-breaks, is that the non-smokers just idle less conspicuously because they don't leave the building. That said, as a boss I would just tolerate it because keeping smokers from smoking leads to worse results of their work and the non-smokers enjoy their regular 5 minute "bathroom/coffee/reading stuff on the internet/gossiping/staring at "insert hot female colleague/delivery dude" 's ass breaks" just as much. After all, people aren't meant to be fully concentrating on something for more than 10 minutes anyhow, attention span and such.

I've never much cared either way, personally. Everyone needs a mini-break here and there.

Bloodknight
04-09-2013, 08:39
Indeed. It's mostly a splinter/log issue when it comes up anyway :).

El_Machinae
04-09-2013, 10:41
It's is simultaneously a stimulant, a relaxant and antidepressant without the negatives of say caffeine or anti-depressant medication.

Yeah, I'll not deny that there's likely a cognitive benefit for some. It's what they then do with that benefit that matters, because it's balanced against a deliberate destruction of their lungs and a massive stress on the cardiovascular system. Hopefully, the concept of 'vapor' will change the metrics.

eldargal
04-09-2013, 13:01
I sometimes smoke my pipe or a cigar but mostly I get my nicotine in snuff form. All the benefits of nicotine without the cancer.

BigbyWolf
04-09-2013, 13:30
really can't understand anyone that would want to partake

My Grandad passed away under similar circumstances, so I kind of understand your feelings. I can't speak for others but the biggest thing that made me partake was the addiction. It is hard to beat. I started smoking when I was drunk, which then led to smoking when I was drinking, and then to smoking all the time. It just crept up on me, and before I realised it I was a full-time smoker.


My experience with that is that people who don't smoke just spend the same amount of time around the water cooler.

When I used to smoke properly and run shifts at a job where there were no allocated cigarette breaks I used to allow staff on shift with me to have a 5 minute break for every cigarette I had. Best way to keep things fair.

Ironically, they still wanted the breaks even when I stopped smoking at work. :p

Solonor
04-09-2013, 14:12
I voted "No - Can't Stand it! Death to smokers!"

Of course i don't wish death to smokers, but i'm pretty radical about this "addiction", "habit" or "pleasure".. the thing is, unlike other bad habits (like drinking alchool or eating only fast food etc) smoking affects nearby people's health without them having a choice, so i simply cannot tolerate someone that smokes in closed spaces or open spaces near other people. In the days i would go out at night to a club i always arrived with my clothes and lungs smelling like i had been drowned in tobacco. Personally i tried 1 0r 2 cigarretes when i was younger i didn't like it. I smoked cigars for a small period of my life (less then a couple of months) and understand why people enjoy them, but in the end smoking tobacco doesn't appeal to me. Regarding the subject i'm curious on how smoking in general is treated in other countries.

In my country a few years ago it was approved a law that restricts or proihibits smoking in closed and public places, some restaurants, clubs etc, may have smoking areas if they have some kind of ventilation equipment. Socially this was accepted well, although in some places, like in my job, people still smoke in the office, especially if the specific office room only has smokers (it's a shame but if even the boss does it, ohh well..). There is of course the so called "unnofficial" official 5 mins smoking breaks every now and then.

The other thing that really annoys me it's the ease (at least in my country) with which smokers get rid of their, sometimes still burning, half or finished smoked cigarettes to the ground. I don't know if thats because it's a social thing in my country or not. It seems that it's normal to do that...

Bloodknight
04-09-2013, 14:20
unlike other bad habits (like drinking alchool

tbh, I'd rather take the risk of 2nd hand smoke than getting run over by a drunk driver. The latter is probably more likely to kill me on a weekend. ;). That said, the most quoted study about 2nd hand smoke is from a scientific point of view pretty much crap. You just can't attribute a singular cause of death by 2nd hand smoke to 80+-year olds, many of whom had actually been active smokers during their life; that is not Good Scientific Practice at all, but propaganda. Mind, I don't believe at all that it's harmless, but I don't like the propaganda around it; I want to see a well designed study*. Kind of reminds me of the German Green party that attributed the 16K deaths at Fukushima to the reactor accident instead of the tsunami that actually caused them, despite knowing better.



In my country a few years ago it was approved a law that restricts or proihibits smoking in closed and public places, some restaurants, clubs etc, may have smoking areas if they have some kind of ventilation equipment

We had regulations like that, but now smoking in closed, public places has been banned completely, much to the chagrin of Pub-owners who had shelled out a lot of money for ventilation equipment that was only good for a year or two. Probably one of the most unfair rulings I've seen in a while, promising the owners that they could work with seperate rooms and ventilation and then going "nanananaaaaa, fooled you" a year later.


, like in my job, people still smoke in the office,

Forbidden, even if every single last person in the office was a smoker.


It seems that it's normal to do that..

Yeah. Putting a public ashtray here and there helps, as well as fines.


*I recently read a study about genetically modified corn that, according to an often cited study, causes cancer in rats. That study went over 2 years in which rats were fed that corn and then the cancer rate was looked at. The joke about it is that that particular race of lab rat has a normal life expectancy of 2 years during which 80% of the animals develop cancer anyway (they took 10 per group, to get a statistically relevant way to see a difference you'd need n=65 per group). How is anybody supposed to get useful results from that kind of study? The press jumped on it anyway, that kind of hurt to see.

Solonor
04-09-2013, 15:51
tbh, I'd rather take the risk of 2nd hand smoke than getting run over by a drunk driver.

Well of course i understand that argument, but driving while being drunk (or using mobile devices for that matter) is a criminal offense punished by law (at least in my country :) ), 2nd hand smoking isn't, so if i have a smoker clouding the air next to me in an open space i can't do nothing legally, of course i can appeal to it's good sense but depends on the person. i can only take a legal action if his in a public closed place.


Mind, I don't believe at all that it's harmless, but I don't like the propaganda around it

I dont' believe it to...


Forbidden, even if every single last person in the office was a smoker.

Here it's also forbidden....but some people still do it...more carefully but they still do it....and i'm talking about a public institution, one that should give an example


Yeah. Putting a public ashtray here and there helps, as well as fines.

Humm i think even then people would do it....i guess it's a cultural thing :(











I recently read a study about genetically modified corn that, according to an often cited study, causes cancer in rats. That study went over 2 years in which rats were fed that corn and then the cancer rate was looked at. The joke about it is that that particular race of lab rat has a normal life expectancy of 2 years during which 80% of the animals develop cancer anyway (they took 10 per group, to get a statistically relevant way to see a difference you'd need n=65 per group). How is anybody supposed to get useful results from that kind of study? The press jumped on it anyway, that kind of hurt to see.

well nowadays there are studies for each and every point of view

Scaryscarymushroom
04-09-2013, 15:52
@Bloodknight and BigbyWolf

My previous post was not meant as a summary of my opinion on vapor. I think it can be an excellent tool and you guys have my unwavering support.

One of the main benefits, as far as I can see, is that you get to go through all the motions of taking a smoke (except for lighting up). Though the sensation apparently isn't the same, it's much closer than you would get with nicotine gum.

That said, I think quitting (like losing weight, or breaking any unhealthy addiction/lifestyle choice) is driven primarily by two factors:

1. Motivation
2. Willpower

And there's no replacement for either of those.

Another main benefit is the fact that you can control your nicotine dose, right down to 0mg.


Regarding the subject i'm curious on how smoking in general is treated in other countries.

The US federal government leaves smoking up to the states, so California has different smoking laws from Utah, who has different smoking laws from New York, and so forth.

In Utah, there's this law called "The Utah Clean Air Act" that has been in effect since before I was born (passed in the 1970s sometime I think). The law allows smoking indoors under a very narrow set of conditions: The room in which a person is allowed to smoke must be sealed completely off from the rest of the building, must be marked as a "smoking room," and must have proper ventilation equipment leading outdoors. Practically, this means that smoking is banned indoors for restaurants, clubs, hotels, and basically anywhere. The only place I have seen with a smoking room is the international airport. The law also prohibits anyone from smoking within 25 feet of a building entrance.

But then, Utah has a reputation in the states for being heavy-handed with substance regulation. The concept of Californians or Germans being upset that they can't smoke in bars is kind of weird to me. That's always been the case here.

(Again, with the differences... Utah's major cities developed MUCH later than German cities did. What with the automobile, everything is more spread out. 25 feet from a building isn't such a big deal. It basically puts you as far away from a building as the parking lot. In some larger European cities that I've visited, you couldn't get 25 feet from a building without being within 25 feet of another building.)

Bloodknight
04-09-2013, 16:06
One of the main benefits, as far as I can see, is that you get to go through all the motions of taking a smoke

I think that's a pretty important aspect, actually. Makes it feel much less "ersatz"-like.


In some larger European cities that I've visited, you couldn't get 25 feet from a building without being within 25 feet of another building.

Indeed. That would basically be difficult in many villages already, and if I had to adhere to that rule I'd have to be in the middle of the road (the between the lanes, heh) where I live; in my street I'd guess that the average entrance-to-entrance range is like 5 meters, not 9.

Dylius
04-09-2013, 16:29
... That said, the most quoted study about 2nd hand smoke is from a scientific point of view pretty much crap. You just can't attribute a singular cause of death by 2nd hand smoke to 80+-year olds, many of whom had actually been active smokers during their life; that is not Good Scientific Practice at all, but propaganda. Mind, I don't believe at all that it's harmless, but I don't like the propaganda around it; I want to see a well designed study*. ...

Which study is that?

I looked on Wikipedia (I know, and I didn't check the references because I'm lazy :shifty:), and it appears that every medical institution (e.g. WHO) accept the risk posed by passive smoking, and it appears to be backed by studies:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passive_smoking#Evidence

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passive_smoking#Opinion_of_public_health_authoriti es

They also have a controversy segment. Most of it seems to come from the tobacco industry. :shifty: :shifty: :shifty: :shifty: :shifty:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passive_smoking#Controversy_over_harm

Bloodknight
04-09-2013, 17:22
Nah, quoting Wikipedia is ok with me ;).

The study I'm talking about is from the DKFZ (German Cancer Research Center), they basically say that 3300 people in Germany die from 2nd hand smoke exposure every year, but they attribute over 2000 of those deaths to coronary illnesses in 75+ year old people. That's methodically ridiculous because coronary disease isn't really something you can attribute a singular cause to in old people whose life you don't really know, and many of them used to be smokers. The DKFZ works very closely with the WHO's tobacco control center; sadly their boss is more of a crusader than a scientist.
I'm not saying at all that I don't believe it, but I'd really like to see a study that survives a good peer review. :).

Whitwort Stormbringer
04-09-2013, 18:08
I voted the first option, which is really much stronger than I feel, but closer than "don't mind smokers." I find most forms of tobacco smoke to smell pretty bad, but clove cigarettes are pleasant (smelling, if not inhaling), and I have in the past smoked from a pipe and cigars, which seem different to me since I wasn't inhaling (maybe I wasn't doing it right?). Anyways, sometimes I find that particular forms of tobacco smell alright, and I wouldn't be altogether opposed to sharing a cigar or pipe with friends at some future point, but it's not something that I've ever enjoyed enough to make a habit out of.

I think with second-hand smoke it comes down to component vs. sufficient causes. Second-hand smoke is not (or has/can not be shown to be), in itself, the sole cause of illness or death. It can, however, serve as one component cause, along with other component causes such as age, diet, etc. etc. contribute to illness or death. Frankly, that's the case with smoking and lung cancer, as well, it's just more widely accepted that smoking is likely to cause lung cancer.

Bloodknight
04-09-2013, 18:28
and I have in the past smoked from a pipe and cigars, which seem different to me since I wasn't inhaling (maybe I wasn't doing it right?

You were doing it right. Inhaling a strong cigar or pipe has very interesting effects on your digestive system ;).

Deamon-forge
05-09-2013, 00:02
im a Cigars and pipe tobacco man. a Cigar when its a celebration and pipe when i fancy a bit of civilised smoking and to make me look brainy lol. i dont mind smoking but if im eating or in a car im like WTF.... and i dont want them to Ban smoking at all in UK as the ***** in parliament would put tax on something else and im fed up supporting the scroungers and men at power of english society here in Uk. And "other" if its green and grows in the ground then it must be clean :)

El_Machinae
05-09-2013, 11:59
I think that the theory behind the risks of second-hand smoke are sound. It's almost a Pascal's wager at that point. The moral choice would be to behave as if your smoke was dangerous (in the long run) to others.

ChromeZephyr
05-09-2013, 17:12
But then, Utah has a reputation in the states for being heavy-handed with substance regulation.

That's the understatement of the year. I joke with my friends and family in other states about being behind the Zion Curtain.


The concept of Californians or Germans being upset that they can't smoke in bars is kind of weird to me. That's always been the case here.

Not true. Up until a few years ago you could smoke in bars and nightclubs. Restaurants and other public places lost their smoking sections when the Utah Clean Air act went into place before I moved here as a kid, but I could still smoke when I went to Sanctuary/Area 51 for concerts and the like. Don't remember when the total ban came down, but it was after California passed theirs.

OT, I'm an ex-cigarette smoker, quit about 5 years ago or so. When I see the prices of cigs now I flinch, they've more than tripled since I started as a teenager. I still enjoy cigars (we have a local shop that rolls their own that are lovely) and have a case of pre-federal ban Djarum Black kreteks in my freezer that should last me the rest of my life. :D

scavenseer
05-09-2013, 18:15
The fact that i cannot smoke in a club, but ******** can drink until obnoxious is nothing less that idiotic.

More pubs and bars are closing everyday, due to lack of custom, that says it all about the draconian smoking ban.

AsleepByDay
06-09-2013, 09:31
The fact that i cannot smoke in a club, but ******** can drink until obnoxious is nothing less that idiotic.

More pubs and bars are closing everyday, due to lack of custom, that says it all about the draconian smoking ban.

I think that they frequently play music too loud for me to hear what the people I have gone to the pub to talk to are saying (in an attempt to make me drink faster) combined with the fact that people are poorer now and booze is much cheaper in the super market is why pubs are closing. Coffee shops are doing wondrous amounts of trade and you can't smoke in there.

BigbyWolf
06-09-2013, 11:02
The fact that i cannot smoke in a club, but ******** can drink until obnoxious is nothing less that idiotic.

More pubs and bars are closing everyday, due to lack of custom, that says it all about the draconian smoking ban.

The issue wasn't what people were doing to themselves, but how the smoke was affecting others. In my experience it hasn't resulted in a lack of custom for most places (around my area we have just as many pubs and clubs as we always did), it's just meant smokers have to get a bit colder or wetter to feed the habit.

Voss
06-09-2013, 13:14
A bit like the high rate of nurses and medical interns who smoke!

That gets pretty crazy. There are a lot of hospitals around me (Boston has what i deem an absurd amount of hospitals, and fairly concentrated near each other), and the constant procession of hospital employees/nurses/interns out to the sidewalks for smokes is rather absurd (and kind of sad). There seems a bit of twisted irony in the hospital staff going out to smoke right where the patients are coming in. Especially the cancer-focused hospitals.

DeathCat147
06-09-2013, 14:48
The fact that i cannot smoke in a club, but ******** can drink until obnoxious is nothing less that idiotic.

More pubs and bars are closing everyday, due to lack of custom, that says it all about the draconian smoking ban.

As someone with a lung condition I'm supremely happy that they banned smoking in pubs and clubs. Now I can actually go out and enjoy myself with my friends, instead of spending most of my night choking on fumes then suffering for days after from lingering effects. I hope that they ban it from all public areas personally, as there is nothing worse than coming out from doing your shopping or eating at a restaurant only to walk into a cloud of toxic chemicals.

As for the pubs and bars, most of the ones near me are doing great and seem busier than they used to before the ban. However most of them have good management and have learnt to adapt to the change.

blackcherry
06-09-2013, 16:04
I can account for that. My folks started going to the pub within a month of the ban being passed, having not gone in over 20 years! The pubs in the place I grey up have never been busier. I know in Cheltenham some smart landlords have even adapted, creating access to partially enclosed roofs that are now 'smoking areas' where you can take your drinks!

Gazak Blacktoof
06-09-2013, 18:39
I've never smoked. I turned 30 this year and so I've always known what the side-effects could be. My grandfather smoked a pipe and a combination of TB scarred lungs and emphysema killed him. His wife kept threatening to leave him while his health deteriorated if he didn't give up smoking, but he never did.

For most of my adult life I didn't have any friends that smoked but this changed a couple of years ago. I don't overly mind the smell of rolled cigarettes but really don't like the packet kind.

I'm much happier going to pubs now that they don't smell like an ash-tray and I wish that they'd extend the smoking ban to outside areas so that I don't have to be passive smoking to enjoy a summer evening at the pub. Roll on winter when us non-smokers can sit in the warmth while the poor addicted fools shiver in the cold and rain.

Sotek
06-09-2013, 20:51
I do agree despite being a realtively new pipe smoker. There's something relaxing about trolling the intertubes while on my balcony with a nice bowl of aromatic tobacco. Also since it's not inhaled the damage is less than cigarettes which I find disgusting. I just wish there was somewhere that pipe smokers could be social together.

blackcherry
06-09-2013, 21:46
I do agree despite being a realtively new pipe smoker. There's something relaxing about trolling the intertubes while on my balcony with a nice bowl of aromatic tobacco. Also since it's not inhaled the damage is less than cigarettes which I find disgusting. I just wish there was somewhere that pipe smokers could be social together.

Its used to be called a gentlemens clubs, where posh pipe smokers would hang and get sozzled, whilst pipe smoking.

Sotek
07-09-2013, 04:49
Its used to be called a gentlemens clubs, where posh pipe smokers would hang and get sozzled, whilst pipe smoking.

Alas they do not exist these days, I'm not posh and I rarely drink that much, much less get sozzled despite my irishness!

arthurfallz
12-09-2013, 17:18
I also smoke a pipe, but on a rare occassion only. I like it when I go camping, and when I'm really really really stressed out, a nice smoke is soothing. To be clear, the amount of times a year my pipe gets tobacco would number under 10. I've only smoke, so far, twice this year.

Frankly, if I could have some nice cigar smoke without the nicotene and just keep the lovely aroma and fun of puffing, I'd take it.

shelfunit.
12-09-2013, 20:28
Terrible habit. One ofthe besthings ever to happen to this country was the smoking ban. The cigarettes stink (oddly I find the smell of a pipe/cigar quite pleasent), they make your clothes stink and because smoking decreases taste ans smell sensitivity the smokers often don't notice this and so rarely realise it is a problem for non-smokers. Due to the horrific long (and potentially short) term effects I would not be sorry to see it banned totally.


I sometimes smoke my pipe or a cigar but mostly I get my nicotine in snuff form. All the benefits of nicotine without the cancer.

You really need to rethink that http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/factsheet/Tobacco/smokeless.

El_Machinae
12-09-2013, 21:21
Shhhh, remember, she'll be a guinea pig for the medicines I'll eventually need! :angel:

Dylius
12-09-2013, 21:28
Frankly, if I could have some nice cigar smoke without the nicotene and just keep the lovely aroma and fun of puffing, I'd take it.

Could you try incense and a bubble blower?



:p

Urgat
13-09-2013, 05:34
My smoking habits are like a roller-coaster ride. Recently I'd completely replaced it by the occasional puff on the e-cigarette, but then I moved, it got packed somewhere, and I can't find the damn thing anymore. Starting a new job ijn a new environment being somewhat stressing, well, I started again. Though I finished my pack yesterday, and I was too lazy to get another one, so at least no cancer lollipop today. Well unless I go get one at noon.

BigbyWolf
13-09-2013, 07:33
I also smoke a pipe, but on a rare occassion only. I like it when I go camping, and when I'm really really really stressed out, a nice smoke is soothing. To be clear, the amount of times a year my pipe gets tobacco would number under 10. I've only smoke, so far, twice this year.

Frankly, if I could have some nice cigar smoke without the nicotene and just keep the lovely aroma and fun of puffing, I'd take it.


Could you try incense and a bubble blower?



:p

Actually, you can buy 0% nicotine shisha-style liquid for use in e-cigs, I got some (although mine does have the nicotine in it) that tastes just like pipe tobacco, so the option is there.

eldargal
13-09-2013, 07:41
You really need to rethink that http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/factsheet/Tobacco/smokeless.
I put more credence in the Swedish study of 300,000 smokeless tobacco users that found no negative health effects and the fact that no* negative health effects have been linked to snuff in the UK in teh three centuries since smoking was first linked to various illnesses (yes really, 1706 or something).

Anti-tobacco has become a religion, instead of just focusing on smoking they twist things to make tobacco the villain instead.

Edit: *Or atleast only a very minor increase in risk on a few things, no worse than many, more socially acceptable habits. Like alcohol.

I know at least one of the popularly quoted studies claiming smokeless tobacco is harmful neglected to distinguish users who also smoked tobacco.

Chaos and Evil
13-09-2013, 09:00
Terrible habit. One ofthe besthings ever to happen to this country was the smoking ban. The cigarettes stink (oddly I find the smell of a pipe/cigar quite pleasent), they make your clothes stink and because smoking decreases taste ans smell sensitivity the smokers often don't notice this and so rarely realise it is a problem for non-smokers. Due to the horrific long (and potentially short) term effects I would not be sorry to see it banned totally.
I can't but agree.

"Smoking is the only socially acceptable form of suicide" - Kurt Vonnegut.

GHOULSTAR
13-09-2013, 10:02
I can't but agree.

"Smoking is the only socially acceptable form of suicide" - Kurt Vonnegut.

What about eating junk food and being over weight and not shower daily? The stench of some gamers is way worst than smokers. The death rate of heart disease from over weight is about as high as smoker lungs cancer.

When we start banding things others enjoy and you don't, watch out... your turn is coming.

It's already starting in New York with Large coke at fast food place.

I do mind smokers in none smoking area, but I wouldn't say death to smokers.

Your poll should just delete out the Death to smoker crap... The hate is too extreme for me.

AsleepByDay
13-09-2013, 10:34
What about eating junk food and being over weight and not shower daily? The stench of some gamers is way worst than smokers. The death rate of heart disease from over weight is about as high as smoker lungs cancer.

When we start banding things others enjoy and you don't, watch out... your turn is coming.


This is a counter argument I've heard before although the example used was car exhaust, which I am sure will be a fun debate once fusion and electric cars start working reliably and we all turn on the vintage petrol car brigade...
People must be allowed the right to ruin their own health, they should not however be allowed to ruin the health of others! If they enjoy that or not is beside the point.

If people you meet smell, tell them, I'd certainly rather be told.

off topic: that a lot of gamers are fat and hugely out of shape as they push their troops about the table is something that I find highly amusing.

shelfunit.
13-09-2013, 10:42
I put more credence in the Swedish study of 300,000 smokeless tobacco users that found no negative health effects and the fact that no* negative health effects have been linked to snuff in the UK in teh three centuries since smoking was first linked to various illnesses (yes really, 1706 or something).

Anti-tobacco has become a religion, instead of just focusing on smoking they twist things to make tobacco the villain instead.

Edit: *Or atleast only a very minor increase in risk on a few things, no worse than many, more socially acceptable habits. Like alcohol.

I know at least one of the popularly quoted studies claiming smokeless tobacco is harmful neglected to distinguish users who also smoked tobacco.

I personally put more credence on studies that have doctors approval and backing (EDIT: and it was a study of 10,000 users, not 300,000). And please give over with the utter rubbish about no negative health effects from using tobbacco in snuff form, it's almost as bad as defending homeopathy, vitamin C cures and other quackery. Either way at least it's only your own life you are wasting here, not others unlike normal smoking.

EDIT 2: I also have bad flu today (as does the three year old), so sorry if this comes across as overly harsh.

Urgat
13-09-2013, 10:48
I personally put more credence on studies that have doctors approval and backing.

Such studies are often backed by pharmaceutical groups, and doctors tend to back those, because, well, guess why :p. I'm not going to comment on tobacco studies, but the recent "studies" on e-cigarettes prove that they can be absurdly biaised, even (especially) if backed by doctors. It's all just lobbying usually.

Chaos and Evil
13-09-2013, 11:09
When we start banding things others enjoy and you don't, watch out... your turn is coming.
I'm not calling for snuff to be banned. It's (potentially/probably) a form of suicide, not homicide, after all.

Public smoking, on the other hand, was definitely moral to ban, as that was a form of homicide.

BigbyWolf
13-09-2013, 11:50
Such studies are often backed by pharmaceutical groups, and doctors tend to back those, because, well, guess why :p. I'm not going to comment on tobacco studies, but the recent "studies" on e-cigarettes prove that they can be absurdly biaised, even (especially) if backed by doctors. It's all just lobbying usually.

Well, in the old days "doctors" used to advertise cigarettes on TV.

And TV wouldn't like to us, would it?!

Besides, studies on e-cigarettes are kind of pointless at this time anyway (says the man who shamelessly promotes them), as they've not been around long enough to show exactly what they do to you. They may actually be worse for you (although I highly doubt it).


I'm not calling for snuff to be banned. It's (potentially/probably) a form of suicide, not homicide, after all.

Public smoking, on the other hand, was definitely moral to ban, as that was a form of homicide.

Public snuffing just sounds wrong, though...:shifty:

Urgat
13-09-2013, 12:00
Besides, studies on e-cigarettes are kind of pointless at this time anyway (says the man who shamelessly promotes them), as they've not been around long enough to show exactly what they do to you. They may actually be worse for you (although I highly doubt it).
Actual facts can already be drawn, though. Currently, here in France, there's a (otherwise usually serious and trustworthy, but they tend to like to go on crusade now and then) organism that released a studies "proving" that e-cigarets are potentially dangerous (the local journalists happily ignored the "potentially" when I heard the news on my wake up radio, so I had to look it up. "Tough wake up call for the e-cigs users, as they are dangerous for your health after all" is what the dude on the radio said. Weeeh, journalists :rolleyes: ) and then released a list of all the hazardous products they found in the stuff they tested. Turns out the numbers they provided were all considered "negligible amounts" when you study the products themselves. They also insisted on the fact you'd find many things you also find in actual cigarettes. Once again they fail to stress that the amounts were much lower compared to the actual cigarette, and that the absence of combustion basically meant the risks pummelled even further.
Then we have the testimonies of people who've switched from cigarettes to e-cigs for over a couple years, and their doctors record a return to normal of their breathing and endurance processus, as well as a clear improvement of lungs capacities and cleanness, during regular checkups. I'm never going to refuse to accept that e-cigs probably also have crappy stuff that'll turn up, but my own experience using them for barely a month instead of actual cigarettes is that my own breathing did improve dramatically, that I didn't get burnt out by physical effort anywhere as much, that my coughs were gone, and that my overall condition improved drastically. In the light of all this, I can safely announce that "doctor studies" can go *beeep* themselves until they learn not to take me for an idiot.

eldargal
13-09-2013, 12:12
I personally put more credence on studies that have doctors approval and backing (EDIT: and it was a study of 10,000 users, not 300,000). And please give over with the utter rubbish about no negative health effects from using tobbacco in snuff form, it's almost as bad as defending homeopathy, vitamin C cures and other quackery. Either way at least it's only your own life you are wasting here, not others unlike normal smoking.

EDIT 2: I also have bad flu today (as does the three year old), so sorry if this comes across as overly harsh.
There was a larger study of 300,000 men actually but I can't find it at present no point citing it. It is also worth noting the WHO have said officially the science on nasal snuff is inconclusive and the EU ban was lifted because of that. Regardless, the health risk are significantly lower than smoking and not far off those from many other 'lifestyle choice' related habits. I know several universities and health organisations have advocated using snuff to get people off cigarettes as they are significantly safer and would save many lives and a great deal of money. The users of nasal snuff who did develop health problems possibly related to it also tended to be extremely heavy uses, going from what I vaguely recall of the figures some were using huge amounts of nasal stuff, more in a month than most users I know use in a year.

I did overstate things when I said no negative effects, I meant to say no more negative than many other socially acceptable habits but it was early in the morning so it came out wrong.:rolleyes:


I had a whole list of sources for this, can't find it. Managed to find one of them (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14561353) via wikipedia though.

El_Machinae
13-09-2013, 17:08
There was a larger study of 300,000 men actually

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18500993

???

eldargal
14-09-2013, 06:58
Nope not that one, interesting though.:)

El_Machinae
14-09-2013, 11:15
You might be misremembering. You can poke around google scholar or pubmed, but I just don't see it.
I'm finding studies saying snus is safer than smoking, but that's not the same thing. As I said upthread, I suspect there's a cognitive benefit to nicotine, so there might actually be a viable balance that generates a net benefit to nicotine use. Depends on what people do with that cognitive boost, I guess.

Shush
15-09-2013, 08:51
You might be misremembering. You can poke around google scholar or pubmed, but I just don't see it.
I'm finding studies saying snus is safer than smoking, but that's not the same thing. As I said upthread, I suspect there's a cognitive benefit to nicotine, so there might actually be a viable balance that generates a net benefit to nicotine use. Depends on what people do with that cognitive boost, I guess.

Maybe they think about getting more nicotine? :)

I put that I hate it but that might be a bit harsh the smell is sometimes ok it's more that stale smell of smokers that makes me gag.

HK-47
24-09-2013, 18:02
I had asthma as a kid so my lungs are pretty messed up but I don't care if my friends smoke around me. If we are at a place that has hookah we usually get one for the table and I use it sometimes, I have also smoked a cigar once or twice.

I use to smoke herb about once a week when I was in college, but that was mostly a social thing.

Really what bothers me the most is the habits of the older generation of smokers around my town. They don't really take care of themselves and they throw still lit cigarettes into trash cans. The trash can outside my job has caught fire a few times.