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silent25
02-09-2013, 23:41
Saw this pop up over at Faeit 212 (the source of all solid and reliable rumors :shifty:)

via Tim the Thief on Faeit 212
New Rumors for the 9th Edition of Warhammer Fantasy

Release
-All Softcover Armybooks will obsolet with the new release.
-The Starter Box will released at the same time as the Hardback Rulebook
-The Set will include a Book called "Armies of Warhammer", this Book will handle simplified Armylists for ALL avaitable Armies.
-Armies of Warhammer will give Player a little view of all Armies and they Units, also it will be a transitional solution for the obsolet Armybooks
-Armies of Warhammer will be a part in the Hardback Rulebook
-The Rulebook in the Set will be a simplified "Starter Rulebook"
-A smaller complete Hardback Rulebook will released too, called "Warhammer - The Rules"

Rules
-The ruleset will chance again, GW has recognized the last Edition was an hard inpact for sells of Warhammer products
-The number of special rules will reduced
-There will be no releases of Fantasy Suppliments, the books will contain more background. Page numbers up to 150 pages are possible!

This sounds a lot like the jump from 2nd to 3rd ed 40k. There are some positives, but worried that the rules simplification will simply anger the remaining Fantasy players and will not bring in any new players.

Apologies if it was wrong to start a new thread on this. All the suitable threads for this were locked.

P33ge
02-09-2013, 23:49
It would be infuriating to find out they've simplified the rules. If you want something easier then you've chosen the wrong game. I'm not sure how I feel about this...

Malagor
02-09-2013, 23:56
hmm softcover books eh ?
Makes me wonder which books that might be ?
If so it sounds like 2014 is indeed the year for 9e

Drasanil
03-09-2013, 00:07
How can the soft cover books be unplayable but not the hard cover ones? Makes no sense considering they're pretty much all following the same general template. Sounds bull-poopy to me.

In_Fiction
03-09-2013, 00:13
I'm guessing because this book "Armies of Warhammer" will update the softcover books to the current edition and it will keep the current hardcover book's lists the same, thus making the softcover books obsolete. That way they get all the army lists up to date.

Malagor
03-09-2013, 00:15
Yeah but what sucks is that the armies of warhammer will have simplified rules making me wonder if it simply better to use the softcover ones if they are the ones that will offer the most flavor to said army.

Rakariel
03-09-2013, 00:21
Yeah but what sucks is that the armies of warhammer will have simplified rules...
Who said the rules will be simplified? Just because of one rumor on Faeit? Please... :rolleyes:

Malagor
03-09-2013, 00:23
Who said the rules will be simplified? Just because of one rumor on Faeit? Please... :rolleyes:
ehmm that's what we are discussing here are we not ?
Mean we don't have much else to go on right now do we ?

Demiurg
03-09-2013, 00:38
The next editions of both systems are doing this. From what play-testers are telling me SC will be name only and encourage you to use your own. I've even heard that the timelines will be jumped a bit to make more sense.
what armies will be softbacks? WE, Brets

LaughinGremlin
03-09-2013, 00:54
The next editions of both systems are doing this. From what play-testers are telling me SC will be name only and encourage you to use your own. I've even heard that the timelines will be jumped a bit to make more sense.
what armies will be softbacks? WE, Brets

Maybe Dwarfs, Skaven, and Beastmen too. . .

Malagor
03-09-2013, 01:15
Funny because Faeit is also saying that the latest rumour is that Dwarves and Brets are after Dark Elves.

Sineater81
03-09-2013, 01:40
If they make the rules as simple as 40k ....I will ebay my stuff off and call it a day. hope they still sell for a good amount after they s&^t on the game. We will see.

Mortogul
03-09-2013, 01:43
Considering that 9 of 15 Armies have already recieved a New Army Book with the Exeption of Dwarfs, Dark Elves, Wood Elves, Bretonians, Beastman and Skaven. I hope that they will release the missing 6 Army Books before they publish a new Edition. Imho the Carge must be rewritten. What are all the the cute and new War Machines good for, if you can't use them because the Enemy is in CC in Turn 2.

eastern barbarian
03-09-2013, 02:10
I honestly hope they will not simplify the rules, I really like warhammer in 8th edition, best edition so far for me, exactly the level of rules I like, hope they don't turn it into fantasy version of 40k , that would be a disaster.

Silvertongue
03-09-2013, 02:22
I think everyone should keep their panties on and not start already with the whole "I'll sell my armies on eBay!" dirge.

I also think that the real reason 8th ed. hasn't worked better is not because of the rules, which are pretty solid IMO, but because of the absolutley mindboggling price hikes. An edition that relies so heavily on big infantry blocks becomes really intimidating economically wise when you realize that, in order to have a semi-decent unit of, say, Tomb Guard, you need to shell out almost 100 €. Now imagine the initial investment you need to make to start a new army. Absolutely prohibitive.

Alas, I don't think they are going to start selling cheaper boxes, so maybe the rules will try to scale down the game.

I really don't know what to expect.

Gradek
03-09-2013, 02:51
I honestly hope they will not simplify the rules, I really like warhammer in 8th edition, best edition so far for me, exactly the level of rules I like, hope they don't turn it into fantasy version of 40k , that would be a disaster.

Reading comprehension guys. The rumor says that the rules that come in the starter set will be simplified, not that the overall rules/hardback rules will be. This seems like a good marketing move to get new players to buy more stuff after getting the starter without an immediate investment in a specific army book.

Theocracity
03-09-2013, 04:35
Sounds to me like someone took an interpretation of the vague Harry / Hastings discussions from a while back, extrapolated out a few ideas based on how they think GW works, and then sold them to Faeit (the source of all solid and reliable rumors :shifty:)*.


*: (I liked that from the OP, and think it needs to appended to any reference of Faeit from now on ;))

Surgency
03-09-2013, 04:36
Sounds to me like someone took an interpretation of the vague Harry / Hastings discussions from a while back, extrapolated out a few ideas based on how they think GW works, and then sold them to Faeit.

You mean that Faeit passed along something that probably isn't true???? Poppycock I say!

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2

silent25
03-09-2013, 05:23
Sounds to me like someone took an interpretation of the vague Harry / Hastings discussions from a while back, extrapolated out a few ideas based on how they think GW works, and then sold them to Faeit (the source of all solid and reliable rumors :shifty:)*.


*: (I liked that from the OP, and think it needs to appended to any reference of Faeit from now on ;))

Thanks! :D

It only works here with the Warseer emotes, because :shifty: is :shifty:.

Sales of WHFB are down 40% over the previous edition and people claim WHFB has disappeared from most play areas in the USA (if the internet is to believed). It was already the weaker system in the US and the edition angered a good chunk of the player base enough to cause them to leave. I hope the main goal of this edition is to get people to play it again creating a critical mass where new players start coming in. Unfortunately this goes completely against GW's main goal of always making as much money as possible. But with the system seen as dying, GW may finally be attempting some long term planing. From a local who was in Memphis for GD North America and talked with some of the upper management, there is definitely an acknowledgement that there are problems and things need to be fixed. The feeling was upper management was starting to look at a post-Kirby world and no one wanted to inherit a ship about to go under.

Mike3791
03-09-2013, 06:44
I think GW should do a survey why people DON'T play WFB. Imo I think 8th is the best edition to date, mainly because it made infantry useful. But yea, the prices are insane to field an infantry block and I think most gamers prefer systems with low model counts anyways, not just for price reasons but also practicality.

cornonthecob
03-09-2013, 07:26
Calm down everyone, it's Faeit, if we took the salt that went with these rumours our Kidneys would shrivel.

silent25
03-09-2013, 07:59
Well another bit from Faeit 212 (the source of all solid and reliable rumors :shifty:)
via Tim the Thief on Faeit 212

October: Dark Elves
The October will bring Dark Elves with a new Armybook, not Dwarfs!

February: Dwarfs
The Dwarf release has Switched to February

April: Bretonnians

The nice thing with it all being from Tim, we'll know in 30 days if he is right or these rumors are completely full of it :evilgrin:

Daniel36
03-09-2013, 08:03
-All Softcover Armybooks will obsolet with the new release.
Mehh... Doesn't seem like those remaining soft covers are going to be very difficult to relegate into a "Ravening Hordes" of sorts.

-The Starter Box will released at the same time as the Hardback Rulebook
Don't really care for starter sets too much.

-The Set will include a Book called "Armies of Warhammer", this Book will handle simplified Armylists for ALL avaitable Armies.
-Armies of Warhammer will give Player a little view of all Armies and they Units, also it will be a transitional solution for the obsolet Armybooks
Sounds fine to me.

-Armies of Warhammer will be a part in the Hardback Rulebook
-The Rulebook in the Set will be a simplified "Starter Rulebook"
-A smaller complete Hardback Rulebook will released too, called "Warhammer - The Rules"
I am holding off until "The Rules" will be released, then.

Rules
-The ruleset will chance again, GW has recognized the last Edition was an hard inpact for sells of Warhammer products
There would be no reason to change if they didn't... you know... change anything. 8th edition has started to slightly bore me anyways. Hopefully the new edition will do some things drastically different to make the game more exciting for me.

-The number of special rules will reduced
That would make me one happy camper. Way too many special rules right now.

-There will be no releases of Fantasy Suppliments, the books will contain more background. Page numbers up to 150 pages are possible!\
Awwwww... I like supplements. Then again, if GW would just get their heads out of whatever they stuck it in and USE what they already have and ADD to that...
You know, like army specific Arcane Architecture? Campaign ideas IN the army books centered around the armies in question? That sort of stuff...
Really, it isn't that hard.

We'll see.

Targ Ironfist
03-09-2013, 08:17
For me, 8th is the edition I like most.

The release schedule seems reasonable to me, with not so many other options, realy. Only theoreticaly there could be tree huggers instead of brets. But we shall see.

Special rules do make the game more interesting - units get more flavour, I would say. Some editions before did lack them and it was sort of bleak - you had scaly guys with this AS and these stats and I have beardy guys with these stats and that armour. Finished. :skull:
Here is the rumour a bit contradictory as if hard back books "stay in power", then there are not many special rules to be deleted, anyway. Most special combinations are exactly in those books.
Theoreticaly that could mean bringing some rules from the soft books to line with the most recent stuff (rules introduced in the rulebook - so similar rules will be made redundant) and reducing items, but that process is on the way from the beginning of 8th edition anyway...

Romark
03-09-2013, 08:39
If 9th bothers me that much, i'll stick to playing 8th. I'm sure my gaming group will as well.

Problem solved.

Archibald_TK
03-09-2013, 08:57
Calm down everyone, it's Faeit, if we took the salt that went with these rumours our Kidneys would shrivel.
I thought Fantasy players had to sell their kidneys a long time ago in order to continue buying miniatures? :D

More seriously, I don't think a change of rules will have any significant impact for the game. While true that we saw a loss of many veterans those who don't like the actual system already left the game and chance that they will come back with a new one are slims. The rule system also has no impact on new blood, kids don't play the game, they buy a few model then abandon it for the simple reason it's too costly and the idea of having to build tons of identical little miniatures is understandably the opposite of fun for many kids and adults. Casual players by definition don't like the idea of buying multiple time the same models. Whatever you do to the game system won't change that.

Another thing that really boggle my mind, the idea that the loss of popularity of WFB is an American only thing is an Internet myth! Even in very vocal pro-Fantasy countries like France, where you can see people pop on forums or BOLS left and right explaining how WFB is the most popular game, the reality is that in term of sales 40k steps on WFB and has been doing so for years. Thought I don't know the most recent numbers it is my understanding they are even worse than they were. When the global retail program was reworked that year the official stance on GW for the removal of a large chunk of the WFB range from the modules was that it was due to feedback and complaints from independent retailers as there was too much of a gap in the sales numbers of each games to justify having so many WFB boxes in it.

As a side note, as it's a place like any other to put that kind of info, the most popular WFB army by a large margin is Vampire Counts. At the opposite of the spectrum here are the armies that are not required to be present on the shelves: Beastmen, Bretonia, Dark Elves, Dwarves, Empire, Lizardmen, Tomb Kings, Wood Elves.

Miredorf
03-09-2013, 09:08
If they make the rules as simple as 40k ....I will ebay my stuff off and call it a day. hope they still sell for a good amount after they s&^t on the game. We will see.


I honestly hope they will not simplify the rules, I really like warhammer in 8th edition, best edition so far for me, exactly the level of rules I like, hope they don't turn it into fantasy version of 40k , that would be a disaster.

Im sorry to screw your fun guys, but they have kept simplificating the rules since the creation of the game, edition after edition. In fact, 40k 6th edition is a mirrored image of warhammer 8th edition both in simplicity and even its approach to some mechanics. Probably because the chief author is the same guy.

For me the game was best played in 4-5th (Saving the hero hammer part, of course), although i admit sometimes it was a little harder to resolve all combats before doing the fleeing moves, etc. Maybe even those who are old enough to have played 3rd could tell you about how much more complex was the game back then (i have only skimmed through the 3rd ed rules, nothing else).

If you think about it, all editions have had some really interesting mechanics, even 8th which i loathe so much.

GW should have 2 rulesets: the ones we have now, which are the ''arcade'' version and a new one for veterans who like ''simulation'', more complex and realistic.

Greyshadow
03-09-2013, 09:10
I am not sure some simplification of the rules would be a bad thing. Chess is an example of a game with simple rules but is an extremely deep and complex game. If the depth of the game stays at the same level but the ropey areas of the rules (eg. character rules) are cleaned up a bit that can only be a good thing.

Popularity issues of 8th - the rules are the best version ever in my opinion but I agree getting in to the Warhammer hobby should not be a daunting. 8th has been a bit go big or go home which would be intimidating for new players, especially with the very high cost of an entry size army. Ben Curry has explored small games using the 8th ruleset at bad dice and demonstrated you can have cracking games with a small amount of tweaking of the army selection rules. I think 9th could both maintain the depth of the game while making the game more accessible - here's hoping.

Mike3791
03-09-2013, 09:10
the idea of having to build tons of identical little miniatures is understandably the opposite of fun for many kids and adults. Casual players by definition don't like the idea of buying multiple time the same models. Whatever you do to the game system won't change that.

This is the major problem in my opinion, lower model count games like 40k and Warmachine are far more appealing. Hopefully in 9th GW shrinks the scale of the game to make it more manageable for new players. It is a shame WFB is doing poorly right now, as they have really amazing big monster model kits.

Malagor
03-09-2013, 09:20
The real main problem to me which was a bit pissy when I started out and was trying to build my first army was the numbers of models in the boxes.
I started out with Beastmen which is really a horde army so I needed alot of gors, beastigors and all that but you only get 10 models per box.
That was alot of boxes to buy. Have they had 20 models per box it would not have been as bad and can imagine it being less intimidating to new players as well.

But in my area fantasy is doing well, we got alot of new fantasy players who were attracted to the game because of the big infantry blocks that they saw. It's different then 40k which is exactly what they liked. So I really hope they keep the scale of the game and go for that niche.

andyg2006
03-09-2013, 09:22
For me there's no point in me ever buying the main book if I can just get all of the same rules in the boxed set and then the miniatures as well.
However, if I want to keep up to date with WFB and if they go for simplified rules in the main boxed set, it means I'll buy the boxed set to get the miniatures and then pretty much have to buy the main book as well (so that I actually know how to play the game properly). So it's an attempt by GW to make me buy not only the boxed set, but the rulebook as well.
If I have to pay another £45 for the rules over and above the £60 I pay for the main set, then that's £45 less which I have to spend on the miniatures. Seems like a real disincentive to me :(

Lord Solar Plexus
03-09-2013, 09:38
Each and every rumour is an invention. Nobody can possibly know *anything* unless the supposed new edition comes out next week. Both Faeit and this so-called "rumour section" are a waste of perfectly good internet space. :)

In other news, it's an incredibly bad strategy to try to get new people onboard and old ones back by selling them redundant stuff like two rule sets. I'm not saying that's what they do - not a shred points to that - but life's often more about perception.

Daniel36
03-09-2013, 09:45
In other news, it's an incredibly bad strategy to try to get new people onboard and old ones back by selling them redundant stuff like two rule sets.
Well... They just released a new rulebook for 40K, which is where this rumour probably comes from. They just released "The Rules" like a week or so ago. So...

Wesser
03-09-2013, 10:02
Hmm, in my area WFB looks somewhat more popular...are we certain that 40k isnt just bigger than fantasy due to US sales only?

I would postulate that americans don't have the same bias for medieval stuff that europeans have, and I'd guess that everywhere but the US the sales are about equal... but maybe I'm totally wrong?

As for 9th...well the new 40k took on a slew of rules from WFB including special rules (Hatred etc.), challenges and so forth.

If they are standardizing the 2 games under a general Warhammer Hat then maybe we should look at 40k for what they might do to fantasy?

Fear Ghoul
03-09-2013, 10:36
-The number of special rules will reduced

This part here is what makes me think these rumours require large doses of salt. It doesn't make any sense to reduce the number of special rules, considering that 40k has recently increased its number of special rules, and Lizardmen just received a brand new army special rule. This sounds like wishlisting from someone wanting Fantasy to be more like Kings of War.

Daniel36
03-09-2013, 11:31
I'd say there is a difference between a special rule that is game wide, such as Stomp, and an army specific special rule. I think the rumour here relates to the game wide special rules.
And that could mean any number of things.

Avian
03-09-2013, 11:45
Reducing the number of special rules and putting army lists into the main rulebook isn't something GW is fond of. The rest is just extrapolating the old rumours from H&H. I call shenanigans.

sorberec
03-09-2013, 12:56
Reducing the number of special rules could just mean they're not going to keep renaming special rules that are in the BRB for specific units e.g. Witness to Destiny for Phoenix Guard - why give it a special name when it's just a standard ward save?

Avian
03-09-2013, 13:20
If that was something they were interested in doing, why didn't they start doing so in the High Elf book? It's not as if it's something you have to wait for an edition change to start with.

Soundwave
03-09-2013, 13:56
Can we please stop talking about ninth ed Untill we have a vauge concept of confirmation! Yes it is on the cards yet not 2014 surley? G.W have been busy little bees yet to storm forth with another addition so quick may be a little too soon.I could see a few rules set changes and more of a basic starter kit being launched with a few minor options for allies but lets all be patient and see what will be around the corner with the age old process of waiting instead of doing all of our heads in guessing what may happen?

Spiney Norman
03-09-2013, 14:11
Reading comprehension guys. The rumor says that the rules that come in the starter set will be simplified, not that the overall rules/hardback rules will be. This seems like a good marketing move to get new players to buy more stuff after getting the starter without an immediate investment in a specific army book.

Actually a simplified rule book with the starter sounds like exactly the next step on their exploitive path following the last Hobbit boxed game. The Escape from Goblin Town game contained a rule book which had all the core rules, but none of the game profiles which could only be accessed via the large format rule book. So after forking out a lot of money for the set you then had to buy the large format book if you wanted to go any further into the game.

A simplified rule book will do exactly that, force players to buy the full rule book before they can go any further. IMHO its actually a really bad idea because it presents yet another cost-barrier to new players wanting to get into the game, and it makes the starter set undesirable to veteran players who use it as a way to get a copy of the rules and a raft of new models at the same time. I used the WH 7th Starter and the 40K 6th starter to begin new armies and get a rule book into the bargain, I certainly wont be doing this if the rule book is functionally useless for playing the game beyond the starter set scenarios.

cornonthecob
03-09-2013, 14:26
You have to remember though, GW have a very odd mind set. They probably think that by stopping you from buying the starter they've probably saved by you buying the BRB.

thrawn
03-09-2013, 14:48
How can the soft cover books be unplayable but not the hard cover ones? Makes no sense considering they're pretty much all following the same general template. Sounds bull-poopy to me.

i don't think that's sounds like bull poopy. some of the soft cover books are really hard to use with the current edition they may be borderline impossible to use in the new one, so maybe GW jsut figured to ditch them? besides if they're releasing a new army book for all of the armies what's the big deal? everyone is getting a new list.

i kinda like this idea of releasing an army book for every army and then specific army books or "supplements." in this way they can make Arme: High Elves, and then half a dozen supplements "HE: Lothern Seaguard," "HE: Caledor," "HE: Hoeth," etc. I would like that. if they "supplements" were only digital products they can update them monthly (or quarterly, whatever) and thus everyones list is update and competitive at all times! this is how it was when GW jsut started out and everything was printed in White Dwarf. I think that would be great.

MiyamatoMusashi
03-09-2013, 15:06
Can we please stop talking about ninth ed Untill we have a vauge concept of confirmation! Yes it is on the cards yet not 2014 surley?

Since fourth edition (before that GW as a whole were still finding their feet as a business), there have been new editions of Warhammer in 1992, 1996, 2000, 2006, and 2010. Every four years, except 6th lasted six years before 7th arrived (basically because LotR meant there were three genuine core games at that time - The Hobbit does not have the same impact).

2014 will be four years since the last edition, which is exactly when we should expect the new edition, based on historical precedent. Sorry, but there it is. You may choose not to talk about it, but others will, because it's very likely to happen.

(FWIW some of the things I've heard suggest it might actually be 2015 due to the extent of the changes, but I'm still expecting it to be 2014 anyway, until I hear anything concrete to say otherwise).

Since the OP was Faeit, who knows what it might mean, they put any old crap up on there. Most of it sounds like rumour reverb from H&H (which I've also heard independently), but the bit about softbacks being the only books to be invalidated is unlikely; they're not fundamentally different to the hardbacks (except one page in each book about army selection), and AFAIK all books will be invalidated in the new edition, softback and hardback both.

The stuff that isn't H&H reverb is probably guesswork or wishlisting, but there's so much noise on Faeit that we wouldn't recognise signal even if we saw it anyway.

Theocracity
03-09-2013, 15:20
Since fourth edition (before that GW as a whole were still finding their feet as a business), there have been new editions of Warhammer in 1992, 1996, 2000, 2006, and 2010. Every four years, except 6th lasted six years before 7th arrived (basically because LotR meant there were three genuine core games at that time - The Hobbit does not have the same impact).

2014 will be four years since the last edition, which is exactly when we should expect the new edition, based on historical precedent. Sorry, but there it is. You may choose not to talk about it, but others will, because it's very likely to happen.

(FWIW some of the things I've heard suggest it might actually be 2015 due to the extent of the changes, but I'm still expecting it to be 2014 anyway, until I hear anything concrete to say otherwise).

Is there any reason beyond 'that's how it's always been' though? I know if I had a voice at GW, I would certainly question the business necessity of revamping the core game every four years like clockwork.

If they have a major change they'd like to make to the rules? Sure. If they think it would help sales? Of course. But those reasons aren't limited to an arbitrary 4-year deadline.

MiyamatoMusashi
03-09-2013, 15:29
Indeed, there's no reason it has to be next year based on historical precedent alone. (Though GW seem quite happy to keep following established patterns in all other respects).

But there's rumours it's next year, and there's strong precedent for it being a four year cycle. At that point the question being asked should not be "is there any reason to think it's next year?", but "is there any reason to think it isn't?" (I've heard a couple of mutterings that it might be the year after, but they're pretty quiet compared to the strong murmurs saying next year).

The person I was replying to clearly didn't want to believe it was next year ("not 2014 surely?") but what particular individuals want and what GW actually do are unrelated.

tankrothchild
03-09-2013, 15:31
Thanks! :D

It only works here with the Warseer emotes, because :shifty: is :shifty:.

Sales of WHFB are down 40% over the previous edition and people claim WHFB has disappeared from most play areas in the USA (if the internet is to believed). It was already the weaker system in the US and the edition angered a good chunk of the player base enough to cause them to leave. I hope the main goal of this edition is to get people to play it again creating a critical mass where new players start coming in. Unfortunately this goes completely against GW's main goal of always making as much money as possible. But with the system seen as dying, GW may finally be attempting some long term planing. From a local who was in Memphis for GD North America and talked with some of the upper management, there is definitely an acknowledgement that there are problems and things need to be fixed. The feeling was upper management was starting to look at a post-Kirby world and no one wanted to inherit a ship about to go under.

GW sales may be down but I don't think this is a good measure of the state of the community. You're dumb if you buy a full army from GW, plain and simple. The consumer to consumer market is excellent in this hobby. I've picked up great deals for full armies for under $300 from sites like bartertown.

Soundwave
03-09-2013, 15:37
We all speak the truth here guys.Patterns,probability and maybes.Great debates yet just spam in the wrong area of these threads dawing way too much attention for no rumors at all.G.W have done a great job to keep there privates private so let us discuss elsewhere.(eg new thread not in rumors).

static grass
03-09-2013, 16:07
Most of this could just be made up or extrapolated. Throw in a few "known knowns" and we are in business.

I think GW want to lower the threshold to WFB but I remain skeptical to GW. GW wants to boost sales I fully expect the new rules to enable that rather than build a better game. 4000pts standard here we go...

quietus1986
03-09-2013, 17:40
what I have heard was a beginner and advanst rule part in the rule book the "beginner" being a bit more simple than the current edition. The advanst with a bit more rule's something with terrain chanced again. Some other stuff.

sorberec
03-09-2013, 18:00
I think GW want to lower the threshold to WFB but I remain skeptical to GW. GW wants to boost sales I fully expect the new rules to enable that rather than build a better game. 4000pts standard here we go...

The only way 4000 points becomes the standard game is if they massively increase the points for everything in the game.

I'm not actually sure increasing the points size of the average game was GWs intention with 8th - adding 400 - 500 points on to the typical game seems, around me at least, to have been the community's reaction to ensure they could still fit in their kitted out characters. (Note that the UK Throne of Skulls events have been 2000 points with just a rare foray to 2400).

Ender Shadowkin
03-09-2013, 18:12
what I have heard was a beginner and advanst rule part in the rule book the "beginner" being a bit more simple than the current edition. The advanst with a bit more rule's something with terrain chanced again. Some other stuff.

Are you saying you heard that from somewhere else or that is how you are interepretting the rumors from Faet?

Having a basic and advanced rules set would make some sort of sense. A starter box that was a fun complete 2 hour game, that then allowed expansion with new miniatures using hte basic rules or expansion into a more complex rule set sounds like a good idea. This could be their solution to scalabilty. Right now its just too expensive for people to start playing, and this could be a good gateway.

Not sure what to make of the soft cover / hard cover validity for 9th rumors. Dosn't make much sense, nor did it every make sense in my mind for them to crank out all these new books then make them just for background. If the later was happening you would expect a big silent period.

One army book with all the basic units and rules with further release a serries of supliments (like the race specific ones in 40k ) as minitures get made might be their plan. The would then consider each of the current hard cover books a suplement, with further supllements based on model releases. Still sreams pretty tricky to ballance, unless they are totally moving to some sort of digital system. Or perhaps they are considering the inclusisoin of a robust Ally system as some sort of arms race ballanceing, where players have equal access to potential overpowered units or their counters.

Anyway, I tend to like big changes in editions. It forces everyone to adapt, and that first couple years are fun as people strive to figure it all out.

Spiney Norman
03-09-2013, 18:27
Anyway, I tend to like big changes in editions. It forces everyone to adapt, and that first couple years are fun as people strive to figure it all out.

GW likes that as well because it forces us all to dump the units we have been using on the shelf and fork out more dosh for last edition's 'ugly step-child' units which have now become the new black...

That is precisely the reason why they tend to stick to the regular cycle of core rules revamps because a massive shift in the meta means that everyone has to invest in new models that they didn't take last edition, which means more sales for every army.

Andy p
03-09-2013, 19:23
but life's often more about perception.

So very true! Perhaps it could even be said that all life is; is perception.

DivineVisitor
03-09-2013, 22:10
GW likes that as well because it forces us all to dump the units we have been using on the shelf and fork out more dosh for last edition's 'ugly step-child' units which have now become the new black...

That is precisely the reason why they tend to stick to the regular cycle of core rules revamps because a massive shift in the meta means that everyone has to invest in new models that they didn't take last edition, which means more sales for every army.

Agreed, i have them sussed though. Just about each of my armies can already field multiples of every unit in the army list... wait i've spent how much money? ... :cries:

Avian
03-09-2013, 22:37
4000pts standard here we go...
In the lead up to 8th edition there was quite a bit of talk that GW wanted to push for a higher points level as standard (3000 instead of 2000-ish). If that was actually their intent, I don't think it worked.

Ludaman
03-09-2013, 23:03
Reducing the number of special rules and putting army lists into the main rulebook isn't something GW is fond of. The rest is just extrapolating the old rumours from H&H. I call shenanigans.

And so, during the dark times after Harry and Hastings left the rumor forums, a pattern emerged. Someone would post a rumor, some would cry, others would discuss the in-game ramifications, but one thing remained constant: Avian would inevitably use something called "logic" to debunk these so-called rumors, and he was pretty much always right.

:)

@allmyownbattles
03-09-2013, 23:07
In the lead up to 8th edition there was quite a bit of talk that GW wanted to push for a higher points level as standard (3000 instead of 2000-ish). If that was actually their intent, I don't think it worked.

That may well be but how they expected to do so by making infantry cheaper and nerfing point filling monsters I don't know.

As an aside, I really don't get all this 'wishlisting', 'based on what', 'nothing concrete', 'thread closed' lark. There never will be anything concrete, ever, until a couple of weeks before when we get leaked photos. Surely the point of a forum like this is to give us space to chew the cud, not to get to the absolute, unquestionable solid truth of the matter or be silent. It seems pretty weird to create a community and then constantly snipe at each other and stop anything half interesting, calling 'off topic'.

Bigman
03-09-2013, 23:17
Thanks! :D

It only works here with the Warseer emotes, because :shifty: is :shifty:.

Sales of WHFB are down 40% over the previous edition and people claim WHFB has disappeared from most play areas in the USA (if the internet is to believed). It was already the weaker system in the US and the edition angered a good chunk of the player base enough to cause them to leave. I hope the main goal of this edition is to get people to play it again creating a critical mass where new players start coming in. Unfortunately this goes completely against GW's main goal of always making as much money as possible. But with the system seen as dying, GW may finally be attempting some long term planing. From a local who was in Memphis for GD North America and talked with some of the upper management, there is definitely an acknowledgement that there are problems and things need to be fixed. The feeling was upper management was starting to look at a post-Kirby world and no one wanted to inherit a ship about to go under.

Sales maybe down in the USA, but frankly what isn't selling worse. 8th edition may have turned people off, or fads/mind sets if adults/children who play might have changed. All I know is everyone who plays 8th that I have EVER spoken to in UK loves it, and at most would make tiny changes.

GW wants to make money out of fantasy, so they created a rule set needing more models. They then reused people weren't tempted, so they started releasing more and more big kits so that they could charge £50 and the player would need less models to start. The mess has been from the ham fisted attempts to force sales on people through sales tactics.

In_Fiction
03-09-2013, 23:18
They could always change the way the army compositions are made up by making a person take a minimum number of points worth of characters and upping the amount of special and rare you can take (where all the elites and big scary things lie), but then the lists would be so "herohammer" it wouldn't be funny or fun to play against.

Kinda like 4th and 5th edition I guess (so I've read, I started with 6th).

Surgency
03-09-2013, 23:22
As an aside, I really don't get all this 'wishlisting', 'based on what', 'nothing concrete', 'thread closed' lark. There never will be anything concrete, ever, until a couple of weeks before when we get leaked photos. Surely the point of a forum like this is to give us space to chew the cud, not to get to the absolute, unquestionable solid truth of the matter or be silent. It seems pretty weird to create a community and then constantly snipe at each other and stop anything half interesting, calling 'off topic'.

The purpose of the rumour forum is to pass along legitimate rumours. Unfortunately anyone can, and very likely has, submitted wishlists anonymously to sites like Faeit, and it enters the rumour mill because it's on a so-called "rumour website." I personally know at least one person who emailed a wishlist in that was labeled "rumours" because they wanted to see them spread, and hoped GW would see it and think it was a good idea. When I identified those false rumours to the admin at faeit there was no response and that particular "rumour" stayed up until the book it applies to was out

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2

Theocracity
03-09-2013, 23:56
The purpose of the rumour forum is to pass along legitimate rumours. Unfortunately anyone can, and very likely has, submitted wishlists anonymously to sites like Faeit, and it enters the rumour mill because it's on a so-called "rumour website." I personally know at least one person who emailed a wishlist in that was labeled "rumours" because they wanted to see them spread, and hoped GW would see it and think it was a good idea. When I identified those false rumours to the admin at faeit there was no response and that particular "rumour" stayed up until the book it applies to was out

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2

Indeed. A friend of mine pondered sending his ideas in, just to see if they'd get called rumors.

I'd also like to point out that while it can be fun to discuss rumors of shady provenance, calling a rumor out as wishlisting bull or manufactured hedging is as valid a contribution to the discussion as the presumed assumption of truth.

Morgion
04-09-2013, 00:35
This rumour acctually fits very well with the initiative that GW has been pushing the last few years to simplify the game to appeal to newer players(bigger paint range, model for every unit, etc...) A 600 page rulebook that could kill a small animal if dropped is pretty intimidating to someone looking to start. A pile on the cost of army books and models and it adds up and turns people off. A full list of armies in the rulebook would allow for players to wade into the game instead of jump head first and find they don't like it. It's not great for established players, but your business grows more if you can seduce in new customers than if you pander to people who already bought your product.

Halbeard
04-09-2013, 00:42
If you want mass hysteria (soon all the community starts dancing) among players, just send in whatever homemade rumor to Feait, it soon end up here as 100% true confirmed by everybodyís best friends friend, that usually is said to be working as play tester on Games Workshop.
If you putting together all the rumors that have come from that blog lately, you will end up with something that looks like GW is doing everything in their power to dismantle one of thier own main systems, and just go with a never stopping flow of 40K.
As far as I know it fits like a glove for a 40K-blog, of course those that are in to space wants to hear that their spacey toys get all the attention, as well as fantasy players wants to hear that their system gets all the attention.
I don't think anyone know anything of value about 9ed at this state. Not anyone that is willing, or have the possibilities to share it. There are not enough rumors to be certain what is released next month. On top of that it seems like there have been rumors of 9ed since players started to rant over 8ed rules, and thatís since the very beginning! In time we will see all the "it have been moved" threads! Why don't close this thread and let it stay closed until there actually is something solid about 9ed?

Morgion
04-09-2013, 01:04
If you want mass hysteria (soon all the community starts dancing) among players, just send in whatever homemade rumor to Feait, it soon end up here as 100% true confirmed by everybody’s best friends friend, that usually is said to be working as play tester on Games Workshop.
If you putting together all the rumors that have come from that blog lately, you will end up with something that looks like GW is doing everything in their power to dismantle one of thier own main systems, and just go with a never stopping flow of 40K.
As far as I know it fits like a glove for a 40K-blog, of course those that are in to space wants to hear that their spacey toys get all the attention, as well as fantasy players wants to hear that their system gets all the attention.
I don't think anyone know anything of value about 9ed at this state. Not anyone that is willing, or have the possibilities to share it. There are not enough rumors to be certain what is released next month. On top of that it seems like there have been rumors of 9ed since players started to rant over 8ed rules, and that’s since the very beginning! In time we will see all the "it have been moved" threads! Why don't close this thread and let it stay closed until there actually is something solid about 9ed?

Or, some of us just like to talk about these things. Interact with the community. Share ideas. Why does there have to be such a negative response to that? It's a rumour about a game. Nothing bad is going to happen if we talk about it a bit

barontuman
04-09-2013, 01:34
I think GW should do a survey why people DON'T play WFB. Imo I think 8th is the best edition to date, mainly because it made infantry useful. But yea, the prices are insane to field an infantry block and I think most gamers prefer systems with low model counts anyways, not just for price reasons but also practicality.

For me... I really like Cavalry, and I hate the new overpowered magic. Purple Sun, Lurkers, Dreaded 13th, etc. Unit deleting spells are just lame. Make the game about maneuvering and models being killed in combat. If you want shooty-zappy death from afar, then play 40K. I'll admit that it's my own personal bias, but if you want to know, it's not about the price of an infantry block, it's about the stupid rules that came with 8th.

GlenMorray
04-09-2013, 03:19
I think the game needs to have a healthy mix of shooty zingy stuff baront to keep it interesting.

Magic seems fine to me as well...

Gobskrag 'Eadbasha
04-09-2013, 03:48
Well one of the rumors said Lizardmen and every 8th Armybook after will be made with 9th in mind. That being said, is the Lizzy book noticeably different from the previous books this edition?

MajorWesJanson
04-09-2013, 04:51
Indeed. A friend of mine pondered sending his ideas in, just to see if they'd get called rumors.

I'd also like to point out that while it can be fun to discuss rumors of shady provenance, calling a rumor out as wishlisting bull or manufactured hedging is as valid a contribution to the discussion as the presumed assumption of truth.

I've had a speculation post of mine from here on Warseer taken by Faeit and posted as rumors.:mad::rolleyes:

Trains_Get_Robbed
04-09-2013, 05:48
Reducing the number of special rules and putting army lists into the main rulebook isn't something GW is fond of. The rest is just extrapolating the old rumours from H&H. I call shenanigans.

You are 100% correct. This "Silent. . ." character sounds akin to hyperbole, and backed bias from a unreliably site aka. Faeit. Basically outlining what he feels should change as "big bad 8th ed." should get hit with generalized changes, and dissected rumor extract from H&H that molds to a pseudo 7th ed., entertaining really.

In addition, these so called "numbers" everyone keeps bringing up about 40k being this or that compared to fantasy is also a sham to discredit fantasy seemingly. Just blanket stating unfounded facts is rather a strawmans argument no? I will agree that 40K is top dog in sales globally; it is in my regional location (talking localized number specifics is a waste of time so I won't delve) -hell I know because I have a friend and his name is uttered in hushed tones by all other employees. While regional execs (which are gone now) used to whisper in glee over our community top dog numbers. However, it's not enough to push Fantasy into another directional model tirelessly. So before you say Fantasy is getting a recall next year, I'd check again. My bird says it's 2015, but that's all I'll say about that.

Lastly, what's with the I know a guy phrase today (hypocritical because I already said it I know, but it was to be ironic in a sense honestly)? Really just because you went to Games Day and spoke with Vetock, or wet your willys with some sculptor or painter like Trish for example doesn't mean your "besties now" and going for brews -snagging info along the way. Good luck. I'll privately stick with my sources.

Edit: Dat speLlin doe.

Lord Solar Plexus
04-09-2013, 05:50
That may well be but how they expected to do so by making infantry cheaper and nerfing point filling monsters I don't know.

Infantry became cheaper? Which ones, State Troops? Marauders? Orcs? Not that this was done with the BRB aka new edition anyways.

Infantry became better, so people wanted more of it while retaining other units.

static grass
04-09-2013, 06:50
In the lead up to 8th edition there was quite a bit of talk that GW wanted to push for a higher points level as standard (3000 instead of 2000-ish). If that was actually their intent, I don't think it worked.

I am not sure that worked either if that was their intent too but at least scanning through the army list section I see that 2500 points is a very popular size based on that. Also I thought the battle reports were at 3000 points these days.

However you feel about the validity of the above point we have also see a tendency to cut the point cost of many core choices. I don't think 9th edition will see a reduction in game sizes. GW will look to boost sales (which is their job to the shareholders) first rather than fix the game.

During 8th ed we saw a lot of new monsters and fliers even though many armies are still fielding quite old core choices in plastic. I would expect the 9th ed release cycle to focus on those figures and 9th ed rules to focus on those too.

Sexiest_hero
04-09-2013, 06:52
Infantry became cheaper? Which ones, State Troops? Marauders? Orcs? Not that this was done with the BRB aka new edition anyways.

Infantry became better, so people wanted more of it while retaining other units.

Just look how cheap my bloodleeter became! Oh wait, tha,ts at least 4 books where core costed more.

Wesser
04-09-2013, 07:00
Just look how cheap my bloodleeter became! Oh wait, tha,ts at least 4 books where core costed more.

Don't think we can compare what was easily the most overpowered unit in the game across the board to a general trend.

It's more of a "value-for-points" concept as infantry in general became worth more. Some units wasn't as much nerfed as they were scaled back to fit the dition

Lord Solar Plexus
04-09-2013, 07:19
GW will look to boost sales ... rather than fix the game.


Okay, I admit I'm a naive layman but if we assume for a second that the game needs any fixing how in the world are these two opposites? :wtf: I mean if the game doesn't appeal to people, how could they expect to boost sales?

Weird and weirder.


Just look how cheap my bloodleeter became! Oh wait, tha,ts at least 4 books where core costed more.

What are you babbling about? Infantry did not become cheaper with 8th edition. 8th edition did not even include any point costs. As to army books, some raised point cost, some kept it the same, some lowered it. And some (probably most) did all of the above. Empire even lowered the cost for cavalry, so as Trains Get Robbed so pointedly showed, these "claims" are mostly ignorant and slanderous.

People need to get their facts first before they can distort them! ;)

Marked_by_chaos
04-09-2013, 09:19
The single biggest issues are that:

1. The fantasy background is less distinctive and exciting, especially to younger games who seem more drawn to a futuristic setting.

2. The game dynamic has been to push larger mass combat with bigger units at a time when the prices for said units have skyrocketed. I am sure this has lessened the attraction. Viable units are now up to £100 each. Compare to 40k where a complete combat effective unit comes in one box for £15 to £30 (generally).

If they really want to enhance fantasy, they should have a cheaper box of rank and file infantry, maybe snap fit but various poses as with the starter set, that allows you to collect a viable gaming unit for say £30 - for a horde of 40 models of basic infantry.

RanaldLoec
04-09-2013, 09:54
Saw this pop up over at Faeit 212 (the source of all solid and reliable rumors :shifty:)

via Tim the Thief on Faeit 212
New Rumors for the 9th Edition of Warhammer Fantasy

Release
-All Softcover Armybooks will obsolet with the new release.
-The Starter Box will released at the same time as the Hardback Rulebook
-The Set will include a Book called "Armies of Warhammer", this Book will handle simplified Armylists for ALL avaitable Armies.
-Armies of Warhammer will give Player a little view of all Armies and they Units, also it will be a transitional solution for the obsolet Armybooks
-Armies of Warhammer will be a part in the Hardback Rulebook
-The Rulebook in the Set will be a simplified "Starter Rulebook"
-A smaller complete Hardback Rulebook will released too, called "Warhammer - The Rules"

Rules
-The ruleset will chance again, GW has recognized the last Edition was an hard inpact for sells of Warhammer products
-The number of special rules will reduced
-There will be no releases of Fantasy Suppliments, the books will contain more background. Page numbers up to 150 pages are possible!

This sounds a lot like the jump from 2nd to 3rd ed 40k. There are some positives, but worried that the rules simplification will simply anger the remaining Fantasy players and will not bring in any new players.

Apologies if it was wrong to start a new thread on this. All the suitable threads for this were locked.

I would suggest adding salt as required.

We have heard one solid rumour there's a big change coming.

Past that we have speculation or people's best guess.

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2

static grass
04-09-2013, 11:52
Okay, I admit I'm a naive layman but if we assume for a second that the game needs any fixing how in the world are these two opposites? :wtf: I mean if the game doesn't appeal to people, how could they expect to boost sales?

Weird and weirder.



They are not opposites they are simply not the same thing. I am paraphrasing now but if "GW has realised that 8th has hit sales" then 9th will be designed to boost sales and not necessarily to deal with pet gripes/ justified grievances.

Personally I would prefer to see GW figure out what exactly WFB is supposed to represent as in what kind battles do they want to emulate or what era they want and then write the rules to represent that.

Lord Solar Plexus
04-09-2013, 14:24
Not the same thing but in my mind closely connected. How are they going to boost sales if they don't simultaneously address gripes and grievances?!? They don't even need to bother with a new rule set if it is considered worse. That's simply not going to work.

It's logically impossible to design the sales vehicle badly to improve sales. Square peg, round hole. Flat tires, no speedier delivery.

Lastly, GW does not want anything to emulate or simulate. Never has, never will. That's your prerogative as a gamer, so take your pick. Pike & Shotte, Ironsides, Roman Legion, northern horde, shining Knights...of course there's an opponent too who might prefer an era but hey, that's definitively *not* the big problem.

quietus1986
04-09-2013, 15:54
Are you saying you heard that from somewhere else or that is how you are interepretting the rumors from Faet?

Having a basic and advanced rules set would make some sort of sense. A starter box that was a fun complete 2 hour game, that then allowed expansion with new miniatures using hte basic rules or expansion into a more complex rule set sounds like a good idea. This could be their solution to scalabilty. Right now its just too expensive for people to start playing, and this could be a good gateway.

Not sure what to make of the soft cover / hard cover validity for 9th rumors. Dosn't make much sense, nor did it every make sense in my mind for them to crank out all these new books then make them just for background. If the later was happening you would expect a big silent period.

One army book with all the basic units and rules with further release a serries of supliments (like the race specific ones in 40k ) as minitures get made might be their plan. The would then consider each of the current hard cover books a suplement, with further supllements based on model releases. Still sreams pretty tricky to ballance, unless they are totally moving to some sort of digital system. Or perhaps they are considering the inclusisoin of a robust Ally system as some sort of arms race ballanceing, where players have equal access to potential overpowered units or their counters.

Anyway, I tend to like big changes in editions. It forces everyone to adapt, and that first couple years are fun as people strive to figure it all out.

I heard it from a GW shop manager so how good the the info Is I have no idee.

static grass
04-09-2013, 16:01
Not the same thing but in my mind closely connected. How are they going to boost sales if they don't simultaneously address gripes and grievances?!? They don't even need to bother with a new rule set if it is considered worse. That's simply not going to work.


You have to remember that GW doesn't see us as "gamers" anymore we are "collectors". The rules are a mechanism to drive sales. However much you or I think GW should address our issues GW is interested in their own. I never said GW would "design the sale vehicle badly to boost sales" it's all about GWs motivations for a new edition.

So WFB is a simulation. People shoot arrows and people die. People ride horses and they go faster than on foot. People get frightened and run away. But none of these poor people are real they are just toy soldiers hurrah! So at its heart WFB is a simulation. The point here is what kind of simulation does GW want? I don't believe GW know.

Morgion
04-09-2013, 16:26
You have to remember that GW doesn't see us as "gamers" anymore we are "collectors". The rules are a mechanism to drive sales. However much you or I think GW should address our issues GW is interested in their own. I never said GW would "design the sale vehicle badly to boost sales" it's all about GWs motivations for a new edition.

So WFB is a simulation. People shoot arrows and people die. People ride horses and they go faster than on foot. People get frightened and run away. But none of these poor people are real they are just toy soldiers hurrah! So at its heart WFB is a simulation. The point here is what kind of simulation does GW want? I don't believe GW know.

I would assume after 30 years of doing this stuff, GW has a pretty decent idea of what they're doing.

Danny76
04-09-2013, 19:50
Well another bit from Faeit 212 (the source of all solid and reliable rumors :shifty:)
via Tim the Thief on Faeit 212

October: Dark Elves
The October will bring Dark Elves with a new Armybook, not Dwarfs!

February: Dwarfs
The Dwarf release has Switched to February

April: Bretonnians

The nice thing with it all being from Tim, we'll know in 30 days if he is right or these rumors are completely full of it :evilgrin:

Thing is here, they don't just 'switch the releases' like that, it is planned out way too in advance for this.
But however, Dark Elves are October not Dwarfs anyway. Dwarfs never were, I did say that way back when.
I'm also pretty sure H&H were on that same track also.

These are just a rehash of old rumours mentioned at the beginning of this year, worded differently and re applied.
SO they may well be some truths in there, to a degree anyway..

Spinocus
04-09-2013, 20:57
Having separate basic & advanced rule books makes a lot of sense from a financial perspective. GW had to have lost sales on the 8th ed BRB; it was much more expensive than the 7th ed BRB and was ridiculously oversized and bloated to boot. Why spend $75 on the hardcover BRB when you could pick up the 8th ed starter set for $80 at retail (not from GW of course) which includes a softcover version of the BRB that contains all the same rules (minus some scenarios). Hell, I can recall seeing the complete Island of Blood set go for as low as $65-70 on Ebay, shipping INCLUDED). Better yet, separate the softcover BRB from the starter set and it's yours for the low, low price of $15, $20 or $30 via Ebay, Craigslist or some online bits seller. That's exactly what I did for both 7th and 8th ed and wound up paying only $20 a pop.

Coercing people into paying top dollar for the bloated, overpriced & pretty 9th ed 'advanced rules' (let's face it, no hobby store or gaming group is only going to play WHFB using the basic ruleset) will only alienate more disillusioned fantasy players and turn off more prospective gamers. True, GW's profits may be as strong as ever but the community continues to shrink. 'Cannibalizing' their core customer base seems to be working wonders for GW's quarterly reports so why stop now?

Avian
04-09-2013, 21:26
I disagree, for a number of reasons. Firstly, the rulebooks are not where you make the big profits anyway (that's with the little lumps of overpriced plastic). Secondly, if the problem you have is with recruiting new players, you don't want to increase the entry level cost for new players.

Spinocus
04-09-2013, 22:56
I disagree, for a number of reasons. Firstly, the rulebooks are not where you make the big profits anyway (that's with the little lumps of overpriced plastic). Secondly, if the problem you have is with recruiting new players, you don't want to increase the entry level cost for new players.

I agree with you but we're not talking about a 'normal' mini/gaming company like Privateer, Warlord, Battlfront, etc. Profit is profit and GW believed that a massive, bloated 8th ed rulebook would turn a handsome profit so that's what they put on the market. Now while I'm confident the 8th ed BRB made back its money and then some, I imagine it did not sell nearly as well as GW had hoped for (no surprise there, $75 is a crapton of cash for a rulebook packed mainly with recycled pics, fluff & hobby articles, no?). However I am extremely confident that the starter set softcover BRB (which is obviously less expensive to produce) heavily cannibalized on the hardcover BRB's sales... and that simple fact must really bug the hell out of GW's bean counters. If not then why break with a long standing tradition and issue a 'basic rules only' BRB in the 9th ed starter set that is a cut down version of the much more expensive hardcover version?

I've seen this business approach before, where a supporting product is expected to 'stand on its own legs'. Meaning it is expected (in the least) to pay for the cost of production and turn a projected profit. Very often failure to meet the latter criteria means the supporting product is a failure, even if goes beyond paying for itself and sells well on the market. And in GW's case they're a publicly traded company with a board that must satisfy the shareholders each and every quarter.

Your argument regarding 'big profits' is solid but here's some food for thought... Ask anyone in the restaurant industry where their greatest profit margin lies... Food, right? Nope, beverages. Yes, the mark up for those seemingly inexpensive drinks (regular & alcoholic) is absolutely ridiculous compared to food... and yet few people go to a restaurant just to have drinks but hey, everyone drinks when they eat, right? Sure, that filet mignon turns a pretty penny but the cost to purchase & prepare it is much higher than say a glass of soda or house wine. Obvious reasons aside beverages are a fantastic source of 'easy' revenue that no sane business would fail to take advantage of (every bit helps to pay the rent/mortgage, staff wages, expenses, etc.). Most restaurants/clubs/bars will charge for drinks whatever the local/target market supports. Notice that expensive restaurants always seem to charge a bit more for drinks regardless of what's coming out of the tap/bottle. True, miniature companies are in the business of selling minis, not rulebooks, but like beverages everyone buys the rulebooks to play with those miniatures. GW knows it can charge top dollar for its rulebooks because it's a major player in the miniature sci-fi/fantasy industry with a long standing reputation for producing extremely popular games and can therefore dictate the prices... Above all, enough of GW's customers have shown a willingness to pay these prices thus allowing GW to turn a handsome profit each quarter. Over the years GW has changed from a family restaurant to an expensive restaurant (complete with Michelin star) and we're all a bit resentful of this fact.

Bell of Lost Souls published a great article recently about the transformation of GW's customer base, 'We Are All Ferrari Owners Now' or something like that. Basically once a company is satisfied with turning a handsome profit by catering to a small cross section of the market then why go to the trouble of selling Fiats to the masses when you can keep selling Ferraris to the elite? Will this rumored 9th ed BRB scheme alienate new players? Probably. Will this discourage the existing hardcore WHFB gamers from purchasing it? Probably not. Most Ferrari owners don't care about the cost of a new Ferrari. Hey, if you're concerned about the cost of a new Ferrari then you're not a typical Ferrari owner, right? Ferrari doesn't sweat it when a potential buyer turns away because they can't afford a Ferrari, they sweat it when a potential buyer chooses to purchase a Porsche or Lamborghini instead of a Ferrari. ;)

I sincerely hope these rumors are dead wrong and the 9th ed starter set softcover BRB contains the is same exact rules as the hardcover BRB but again, what company are we talking about here?

silent25
04-09-2013, 23:34
Lastly, what's with the I know a guy phrase today (hypocritical because I already said it I know, but it was to be ironic in a sense honestly)? Really just because you went to Games Day and spoke with Vetock, or wet your willys with some sculptor or painter like Trish for example doesn't mean your "besties now" and going for brews -snagging info along the way. Good luck. I'll privately stick with my sources.

Edit: Dat speLlin doe.

Mainly because there are stories of people being fired at GW for releasing information if named. If I were to say, "Tom Thumb in the accounting department told me X", I'm pretty sure you can expect Tom Thumb to be fired.

As for being a shifty individual, only posting the Faeit 212 (the source of all solid and reliable rumors :shifty:) because they sounded interesting. Especially since the source of the rumors is less than a month out now. We will really know in about two and a half weeks if this is bunk or not and that point the thread can be locked for being complete hearsay.

And as for being called a hater of 8th, that is slander and lies! 8th got me back into WHFB. Was sick and tired of a game being determined by carpentry skills (range guessing) and very little else.

Theocracity
04-09-2013, 23:38
I agree with you but we're not talking about a 'normal' mini/gaming company like Privateer, Warlord, Battlfront, etc.

Do you have anything to back up this assertion?


Profit is profit and GW believed that a massive, bloated 8th ed rulebook would turn a handsome profit so that's what they put on the market. Now while I'm confident the 8th ed BRB made back its money and then some, I imagine it did not sell nearly as well as GW had hoped for (no surprise there, $75 is a crapton of cash for a rulebook packed mainly with recycled pics, fluff & hobby articles, no?). However I am extremely confident that the starter set softcover BRB (which is obviously less expensive to produce) heavily cannibalized on the hardcover BRB's sales... and that simple fact must really bug the hell out of GW's bean counters. If not then why break with a long standing tradition and issue a 'basic rules only' BRB in the 9th ed starter set that is a cut down version of the much more expensive hardcover version?

Or the mini rule book in the starter set pushed sales of the starter set from people who wouldn't have ordinarily bought the included armies - expanding its sales potential to veterans as well as new players.


I've seen this business approach before, where a supporting product is expected to 'stand on its own legs'. Meaning it is expected (in the least) to pay for the cost of production and turn a projected profit. Very often failure to meet the latter criteria means the supporting product is a failure, even if goes beyond paying for itself and sells well on the market. And in GW's case they're a publicly traded company with a board that must satisfy the shareholders each and every quarter.

What evidence do you have that GW evaluates its products on that basis, besides the fact that you think they do?


Your argument regarding 'big profits' is solid but here's some food for thought... Ask anyone in the restaurant industry where their greatest profit margin lies... Food, right? Nope, beverages. Yes, the mark up for those seemingly inexpensive drinks (regular & alcoholic) is absolutely ridiculous compared to food... and yet few people go to a restaurant just to have drinks but hey, everyone drinks when they eat, right? Sure, that filet mignon turns a pretty penny but the cost to purchase & prepare it is much higher than say a glass of soda or house wine. Obvious reasons aside beverages are a fantastic source of 'easy' revenue that no sane business would fail to take advantage of (every bit helps to pay the rent/mortgage, staff wages, expenses, etc.). Most restaurants/clubs/bars will charge for drinks whatever the local/target market supports. Notice that expensive restaurants always seem to charge a bit more for drinks regardless of what's coming out of the tap/bottle. True, miniature companies are in the business of selling minis, not rulebooks, but like beverages everyone buys the rulebooks to play with those miniatures. GW knows it can charge top dollar for its rulebooks because it's a major player in the miniature sci-fi/fantasy industry with a long standing reputation for producing extremely popular games and can therefore dictate the prices... Above all, enough of GW's customers have shown a willingness to pay these prices thus allowing GW to turn a handsome profit each quarter. Over the years GW has changed from a family restaurant to an expensive restaurant (complete with Michelin star) and we're all a bit resentful of this fact.

A flaw in your business case is that drinks and food are consumed. A veteran restaurant patron will always order his favorite drink and be a profit source. A veteran Warhammer collector can potentially buy his army once and use it for years - either in games or as a nice display piece. He can be GW's biggest fan, but he is of no profit value to them. Thus its in GW's interest to either prompt this customer to buy new stuff (via meta shifts and new fancy models) - which is unreliable - or get a new customer to buy in, which is where a lower cost of entry is preferable.

Edit: as for your assertion that books are the fancy drinks of GW - I would say they're the filet mignon in your example. It costs a lot more to print a hardcover, full-color book than it does to stamp out and box another sprue on a plastic injection mold (especially if the investment cost has already been paid for).


Bell of Lost Souls published a great article recently about the transformation of GW's customer base, 'We Are All Ferrari Owners Now' or something like that. Basically once a company is satisfied with turning a handsome profit by catering to a small cross section of the market then why go to the trouble of selling Fiats to the masses when you can keep selling Ferraris to the elite? Will this rumored 9th ed BRB scheme alienate new players? Probably. Will this discourage the existing hardcore WHFB gamers from purchasing it? Probably not. Most Ferrari owners don't care about the cost of a new Ferrari. Hey, if you're concerned about the cost of a new Ferrari then you're not a typical Ferrari owner, right? Ferrari doesn't sweat it when a potential buyer turns away because they can't afford a Ferrari, they sweat it when a potential buyer chooses to purchase a Porsche or Lamborghini instead of a Ferrari. ;)

I think they realize the danger of selling a luxury product with a long potential shelf life, and therefore feel the need to appeal to new blood to replace the profits of the jaded veterans whose closets are already full of all the toys they want.

Edit: Also, be careful of that comparison. Just because both Warhammer and Ferraris are called 'luxury products' doesn't make their target audiences or business strategies similar.


I sincerely hope these rumors are dead wrong and the 9th ed starter set softcover BRB contains the is same exact rules as the hardcover BRB but again, what company are we talking about here?

I think these rumors are wrong too.

(Edited out pointless snark).

MiyamatoMusashi
05-09-2013, 02:29
Not the same thing but in my mind closely connected. How are they going to boost sales if they don't simultaneously address gripes and grievances?!? They don't even need to bother with a new rule set if it is considered worse. That's simply not going to work.

It's logically impossible to design the sales vehicle badly to improve sales. Square peg, round hole. Flat tires, no speedier delivery.

It doesn't need to be worse, it just needs to be different.

Imagine GW produced the "perfect" edition. How on earth would they be able to release another edition four years later? And given the monetary boost they get when a new edition is released, you can be very sure indeed that regular new editions is a fundamental part of their business plan.

So they don't aim to make each new edition strictly better than the last (at least that's not the prime aim; they equally don't try to make things worse which would indeed be perverse), just different. Infantry kinda suck in 7th Ed? Hordes and steadfast mean you want to buy lots of them in 8th Ed! Got lots of cavalry as they rocked in 7th? They kinda suck in 8th, you'll have to buy new models to use instead!

That's how they aim to boost sales... "addressing gripes and grievances", sure, but changing other stuff more or less for the sake of it, too, so that other gripes and grievances are raised about the new edition, so the edition after has something to fix. That doesn't mean they're deliberately creating a bad ruleset - simply that their priority is to make it different to the last edition, not better.

Spinocus
05-09-2013, 04:18
First I'd like to apologize to all in this thread for my previous post's wall of nigh OTS text. Most of the posts I pen while at work have a tendency to exhibit a serious lack of focus and today was no different.


Do you have anything to back up this assertion?
GW is a publicly traded company, most of its competitors are not. This puts a different spin on matters in that GW must satisfy the requirements of its shareholders who expect it to meet its quarterly performance targets. GW's customer base is shrinking, not expanding and yet their profits have been growing, not shrinking. This is due to pricing schemes that are, in many cases, completely out of whack with the rest of the mini industry. At some point GW realized they could really milk their customer base for a lot more money than similar mini companies who have much more competition (check out the historical miniature wargaming market for more 'down to earth' prices & practices). I don't see many earth shaking changes in GW's management so clearly the shareholders are content... so why should GW change its tune? GW has also engaged in heavy handed tactics with respect to who sells their product, how they sell it, where they sell it, etc. The list of 'unusual and unfriendly practices' that separates GW from their competitors goes on and on...


Or the mini rule book in the starter set pushed sales of the starter set from people who wouldn't have ordinarily bought the included armies - expanding its sales potential to veterans as well as new players.
Yes, it did that as well, didn't it? But my argument is that many WHFB veterans who had no interest in either starter set army could easily pick up the softcover BRB at a fraction of the cost of the hardcover version... and many did. True, GW sold many starter sets but having the softcover BRB leech sales from the muy expensive hardcover version was never their intent. Let us also not forget those nameless gamers who skipped purchasing the softcover or hardcover BRBs altogether and simply downloaded pirated scans off the internet for free. So if the rumor is true then GW is clearly intent on copying the exact same approach they took for 6th ed 40k release and will publish two hardcover books; one mammoth book that covers the rules, the hobby & the bloat and a smaller, streamlined version that contains the complete rules, references & several scenarios. I'm guessing the 9th ed uber book will go for $75, the rules only book $50 (or whatever the 40K counterparts will be going for next year) and that's it. I don't expect a cheaper, complete ruleset will be offered beyond those two books. Not exactly 'new player friendly' but roughly on par with offerings from other gaming companies.


What evidence do you have that GW evaluates its products on that basis, besides the fact that you think they do?
I don't, I am merely speculating based on the evidence before me. The practices I mentioned are not uncommon. If a car manufacturer produces an option that few people purchase then it runs a cost benefit analysis of producing & selling that option based on its sales. Material, resources, time, labor, etc. are all thrown into the equation and if the numbers don't make management happy then 'poof', no more option.


A flaw in your business case is that drinks and food are consumed. A veteran restaurant patron will always order his favorite drink and be a profit source. A veteran Warhammer collector can potentially buy his army once and use it for years - either in games or as a nice display piece. He can be GW's biggest fan, but he is of no profit value to them. Thus its in GW's interest to either prompt this customer to buy new stuff (via meta shifts and new fancy models) - which is unreliable - or get a new customer to buy in, which is where a lower cost of entry is preferable.

You make valid points except for the fact that veteran gamers are critical to GW's business model. Many of them (especially fantasy players) are older and as people age they typically have more expendable income... income that GW wants them to keep spending on their products. This is precisely why GW refreshes its BRB, army books and models every 4 years or so... to drum up more sales from new & existing customers. They don't want people putting the exact same army on the table which is why each new release sports a new army book along with 2-3 new plastic box sets and some resin models.

Lower cost of entry is preferable but a beginner's army must also be viable for everyday gameplay... and GW fails miserably in that area (at least in Fantasy).


Edit: as for your assertion that books are the fancy drinks of GW - I would say they're the filet mignon in your example. It costs a lot more to print a hardcover, full-color book than it does to stamp out and box another sprue on a plastic injection mold (especially if the investment cost has already been paid for).

Yes, I realized the downside to my example but I was likening the books to the beverages to prove a point that a supporting product can provide a surprising boost to revenue. Few gamers go to GW for their rules, most go for the minis. Furthermore you can throw in GW's overpriced brushes, glues, tape measures, dice, templates, paints, etc. to the supporting product mix. Much of that stuff is low quality junk (except for the paints) that commands a tidy per unit profit, especially for their brick & mortar stores.


I think they realize the danger of selling a luxury product with a long potential shelf life, and therefore feel the need to appeal to new blood to replace the profits of the jaded veterans whose closets are already full of all the toys they want.

Edit: Also, be careful of that comparison. Just because both Warhammer and Ferraris are called 'luxury products' doesn't make their target audiences or business strategies similar.

I sincerely hope so but GW is playing with fire if it sends those jaded veterans into the cold... because as of right now they're the only ones who keep coming back for more! Someone is buying up these $60/70/80 models and it's not the first time buyer child or teenager on a limited allowance. GW may try to lower the cost of entry for new/casual gamers (or make it more cost effective) but it's a safe bet you won't see price drops for their existing line.


I think these rumors are wrong too, but not because I think that the people who run GW are somehow both greedy masterminds and idiots who don't know their own business.

Greedy masterminds? Yes. Idiots who don't know their own business? Nope. GW is turning a handsome profit and knows how to milk this cow. Speaking purely in terms of business I have enormous respect for their ability to squeeze so much revenue out of their customers. My biggest issue with GW is their flagrant disregard for their customers. I think the best argument is that GW no longer cares about the hobby. I cannot recall another company whose business practices have driven so many existing customers away while completely alienating potential ones. GW doesn't care because it knows it will always grab x number of dollars from first timers casually perusing its stores and its core audience who, like junkies, keep coming back for more no matter what they charge.

Theocracity
05-09-2013, 05:02
First I'd like to apologize to all in this thread for my previous post's wall of nigh OTS text. Most of the posts I pen while at work have a tendency to exhibit a serious lack of focus and today was no different.

No worries. I'd like to take the opportunity to apologize if my post came out as needlessly snarky.


GW is a publicly traded company, most of its competitors are not. This puts a different spin on matters in that GW must satisfy the requirements of its shareholders who expect it to meet its quarterly performance targets. GW's customer base is shrinking, not expanding and yet their profits have been growing, not shrinking. This is due to pricing schemes that are, in many cases, completely out of whack with the rest of the mini industry. At some point GW realized they could really milk their customer base for a lot more money than similar mini companies who have much more competition (check out the historical miniature wargaming market for more 'down to earth' prices & practices). I don't see many earth shaking changes in GW's management so clearly the shareholders are content... so why should GW change its tune? GW has also engaged in heavy handed tactics with respect to who sells their product, how they sell it, where they sell it, etc. The list of 'unusual and unfriendly practices' that separates GW from their competitors goes on and on...

GW also has a lot more ongoing investments it needs to pay for - including its retail stores in multiple countries, high quality design and plastic production process, and most of its in-house hobby support. I don't think their higher prices are just a factor of deciding them they can 'milk' their customers - and I understand why aggressively protecting their IP is important to them when they have so much riding on it.


Yes, it did that as well, didn't it? But my argument is that many WHFB veterans who had no interest in either starter set army could easily pick up the softcover BRB at a fraction of the cost of the hardcover version... and many did. True, GW sold many starter sets but having the softcover BRB leech sales from the muy expensive hardcover version was never their intent. Let us also not forget those nameless gamers who skipped purchasing the softcover or hardcover BRBs altogether and simply downloaded pirated scans off the internet for free.

I'm not sure I get your argument here. If a veteran gamer just wanted to pick up the BRB, he'd pay $75. If he wants the softcover, he'd have to buy if off someone who paid $100 for the starter set - and who then would need to buy the $75 book if he wanted the rules too. If anything, it seems like GW's coming out ahead on this. And I don't think we can really account for piracy in this argument - that would happen no matter what format GW sells its books in.


So if the rumor is true then GW is clearly intent on copying the exact same approach they took for 6th ed 40k release and will publish two hardcover books; one mammoth book that covers the rules, the hobby & the bloat and a smaller, streamlined version that contains the complete rules, references & several scenarios. I'm guessing the 9th ed uber book will go for $75, the rules only book $50 (or whatever the 40K counterparts will be going for next year) and that's it. I don't expect a cheaper, complete ruleset will be offered beyond those two books. Not exactly 'new player friendly' but roughly on par with offerings from other gaming companies.

That seems about right to me.


I don't, I am merely speculating based on the evidence before me. The practices I mentioned are not uncommon. If a car manufacturer produces an option that few people purchase then it runs a cost benefit analysis of producing & selling that option based on its sales. Material, resources, time, labor, etc. are all thrown into the equation and if the numbers don't make management happy then 'poof', no more option.

At the same time though, you have to consider how certain products support others even if they run a negative cost / benefit analysis on their own. I'm sure there are many products in GW's hobby or terrain lines that don't make a profit on their own, but support the sales of the rest of their offerings.


You make valid points except for the fact that veteran gamers are critical to GW's business model. Many of them (especially fantasy players) are older and as people age they typically have more expendable income... income that GW wants them to keep spending on their products. This is precisely why GW refreshes its BRB, army books and models every 4 years or so... to drum up more sales from new & existing customers. They don't want people putting the exact same army on the table which is why each new release sports a new army book along with 2-3 new plastic box sets and some resin models.

I think this was my main bone of contention with your original point. I really don't think that veterans are critical to GW's business model. I don't think it's true that older players necessarily have more spendable income - younger players might not have bigger paychecks, but neither do they have car payments, mortgages, children and retirement savings to budget for. Time to play or hobby becomes scarce for older gamers, so they tend to buy less. And as things change, so do tastes - many older gamers are nostalgic for their old preferences and shun newer products (as evidenced by a lot of discussions on Warseer), or grow out of the hobby entirely. New players, on the other hand, are full of potential revenue and years of loyalty - why not spend your resources on them, rather than old grouches who aren't going to buy new things anyway?


Lower cost of entry is preferable but a beginner's army must also be viable for everyday gameplay... and GW fails miserably in that area (at least in Fantasy).

I think a lot of that has to do with tournament mindsets. It's possible to have fun with small points limits or model counts, but the typical "you need to spend this much before we'll consider playing with you" culture that tends to crop up certainly can push newcomers away.


Yes, I realized the downside to my example but I was likening the books to the beverages to prove a point that a supporting product can provide a surprising boost to revenue. Few gamers go to GW for their rules, most go for the minis. Furthermore you can throw in GW's overpriced brushes, glues, tape measures, dice, templates, paints, etc. to the supporting product mix. Much of that stuff is low quality junk (except for the paints) that commands a tidy per unit profit, especially for their brick & mortar stores.

Indeed.


I sincerely hope so but GW is playing with fire if it sends those jaded veterans into the cold... because as of right now they're the only ones who keep coming back for more! Someone is buying up these $60/70/80 models and it's not the first time buyer child or teenager on a limited allowance. GW may try to lower the cost of entry for new/casual gamers (or make it more cost effective) but it's a safe bet you won't see price drops for their existing line.

I really don't think jaded veterans are the ones spending money - at least based on a lot of the comments I hear around here. Mostly I hear "the new stuff sucks compared to the old stuff" or "I switched to warmachine / flames of war" or "I'm mad GW nerfed my perfect 4th edition army." New players just see sweet robodragons and t-rexes riding other t-rexes.


Greedy masterminds? Yes. Idiots who don't know their own business? Nope. GW is turning a handsome profit and knows how to milk this cow. Speaking purely in terms of business I have enormous respect for their ability to squeeze so much revenue out of their customers. My biggest issue with GW is their flagrant disregard for their customers. I think the best argument is that GW no longer cares about the hobby. I cannot recall another company whose business practices have driven so many existing customers away while completely alienating potential ones. GW doesn't care because it knows it will always grab x number of dollars from first timers casually perusing its stores and its core audience who, like junkies, keep coming back for more no matter what they charge.

I respect their business practices too. I just don't think that disrespecting their customers is some core value, as is often surmised around here. They just have different priorities than their passionate fans - which makes sense, because a fan's priority would be to pay the minimum amount of money one time for exactly the army they want and can use forever.

Verm1s
05-09-2013, 05:23
A change to warhammer that necessitates dumping several current army books has my ears pricked up with interest. But I won't be surprised if what pops out at the end will still be... 'warhammer'.


It would be infuriating to find out they've simplified the rules. If you want something easier then you've chosen the wrong game.

Simplification =/= easier. Complexity, i.e. having a bunch of special rules to memorise and look up and interrupt the game =/= depth. Get yourself a copy of the current issue 68 of Wargames: Soldiers and Strategy, and read Sam Mustafa's column. ;)


Special rules do make the game more interesting - units get more flavour, I would say. Some editions before did lack them and it was sort of bleak - you had scaly guys with this AS and these stats and I have beardy guys with these stats and that armour. Finished. :skull:

Special rules =/= flavour. :p Take the 'scaly guys' fr'instance: you've got all this background and artwork of said scaly guys and the models to represent what you've read and seen on the tabletop, and you need gameflow roadbumps to make 'em interesting!? What difference do they make beyond basic stats anyway? E.g. the scaly guys' cold blooded rule - if they need a leadership boost in game or background terms, why not just boost the leadership? Looking further, infantry are better in 8th ed. Just down to hordes and steadfast? Why do they need a steadfast rule tacked on? What is it about the core rules that means a 40-model unit can't look after itself otherwise?


I thought Fantasy players had to sell their kidneys a long time ago in order to continue buying miniatures? :D

Ha! :D


Maybe even those who are old enough to have played 3rd could tell you about how much more complex was the game back then (i have only skimmed through the 3rd ed rules, nothing else).

If all the oldhammer blogs and forum posts I see popping up around the place are anything to go by, 3rd ed model counts were microscopic compared to warhammer games these days, practically skirmish level, and arguably better suited to more focus on individuals and their special abilities. (More on that theme later)


Sense.

:D



I would postulate that americans don't have the same bias for medieval stuff that europeans have

Well unless you're first nations, all americans came from somewhere. Plenty from europe, I gather (many still defining themselves in that context), well after the medieval periods. :p


This sounds like wishlisting from someone wanting Fantasy to be more like Kings of War.

It would not kill too many of you. Maybe some casualties from burst head-veins, but not too many...


All I know is everyone who plays 8th that I have EVER spoken to in UK loves it, and at most would make tiny changes.

This just in: people who continue to play a game for three years turn out to quite like it. :D



If they really want to enhance fantasy, they should have a cheaper box of rank and file infantry, maybe snap fit but various poses as with the starter set, that allows you to collect a viable gaming unit for say £30 - for a horde of 40 models of basic infantry.

Perrys, Warlord, Gripping Beast etc. seem to be able to do ~40 for ~£20, but £30 would be a big improvement for GW.


GW has a pretty decent idea of what they're doing.

I'll say.


Over the years GW has changed from a family restaurant to an expensive restaurant (complete with Michelin star) and we're all a bit resentful of this fact.

Michelin star - ha! :D A bit more like a change from a family restaurant to a McDonalds with £15 burgers.


Do you have anything to back up this assertion?

Well, how about this: Warhammer is the only mass battle game I know of (fantasy and historical) that treats figure scale on a 1:1 basis; that cranks the focus down onto individual models for individual combat, including unit leader attacks and intra-unit support (i.e. rank bonuses and outnumbering); and relies on multiple nullifying dice rolls per individual per combat. (Why do you need to roll to hit and wound and save?) It's basically taken the small/warband/skirmish game of the first three editions (hello people from further up this post) and kept piling on more and more minis. There are a few tweaks to streamline more and bigger units, as Miredorf said; but it's still at it's heart, it's core mechanics, a skirmish game, masquerading as a mass battle wargame. It hasn't been designed from the ground up for that purpose, as a 'normal' game from a 'normal' company might be.

And as should have been obvious already, if not after some good posts in this topic: the two Warhammers are pretty unique, at least until recently, in their planned obsolescence. Predestined to be shook up and changed around on a regular basis to boost sales. Other games are not designed like this, as far as I know, and most succeeding editions (one or two at most) do seem like genuine attempts to remedy problems that become apparent over their lifespan. Maybe it's a contributing factor in keeping their parent companies small, particularly in comparison to GW, but it sure seems a lot more authentic, widely-practised, and 'normal' to me.

And thanks to that, and the consumer cult it's built up around itself, I don't know if GW can break out of the usual cycle at this point, and develop Warhammer into a genuine mass battle game. (Hello people from the top of this post) Is that 'normal'?

(Though I dunno how 'normal' PP is in those definitions. To me it's like GW's little brother with more robots. YMMV.)


A flaw in your business case is that drinks and food are consumed. A veteran restaurant patron will always order his favorite drink and be a profit source. A veteran Warhammer collector can potentially buy his army once and use it for years - either in games or as a nice display piece.

In Warseer news topics with pics of new releases, how often do you see the response "these are excellent but I've bought enough minis for my army. I'll pass!" :p Personally I've seen more in other topics that fall for the sunk cost fallacy - "I've spent too much money to stop spending it now!"

(Edit: and in the DE rumour topic: "Ouch, my wallet!")

Lord Solar Plexus
05-09-2013, 05:36
You have to remember that GW doesn't see us as "gamers" anymore we are "collectors". The rules are a mechanism to drive sales. However much you or I think GW should address our issues GW is interested in their own. I never said GW would "design the sale vehicle badly to boost sales" it's all about GWs motivations for a new edition.


That's too alien and contradictory to believe for even a second. If we're collectors, then why are the rules, and why are they a mechanism to drive sales? That doesn't make any sense - rules are not for collectors. GW simply wouldn't have to bother. Of course they see us as gamers- they're selling WFB, NOT models as an urban myth goes.

Secondly, you claimed they did not care about the sales vehicle, or how broken it is. Now you admit the rules are one but how they can get anywhere on a dead horse is still unexplained. It's like saying they want WFB to prosper but don't care about WFB.


Having separate basic & advanced rule books makes a lot of sense from a financial perspective. ...

Coercing people into paying top dollar ... will only alienate more disillusioned fantasy players and turn off more prospective gamers.


Your logic fails at the most basic level. There's so much wrong in these two sentences I cannot be bothered to point out the details but you should really access at least one working brain cell once in a while.

Theocracity
05-09-2013, 05:41
Well, how about this: Warhammer is the only mass battle game I know of (fantasy and historical) that treats figure scale on a 1:1 basis; that cranks the focus down onto individual models for individual combat, including unit leader attacks and intra-unit support (i.e. rank bonuses and outnumbering); and relies on multiple nullifying dice rolls per individual per combat. (Why do you need to roll to hit and wound and save?) It's basically taken the small/warband/skirmish game of the first three editions (hello people from further up this post) and kept piling on more and more minis. There are a few tweaks to streamline more and bigger units, as Miredorf said; but it's still at it's heart, it's core mechanics, a skirmish game, masquerading as a mass battle wargame. It hasn't been designed from the ground up for that purpose, as a 'normal' game from a 'normal' company might be.

I did mean more in terms of their business model than in their rules. I think that most miniature companies make more money off their miniatures than their rules sets - it's just a question of how they intend to keep making money over time. GW has chosen its path - bigger, more detailed (and expensive) plastics, gradual shifts to rules that provoke meta changes, and a high investment in outreach to new players. Other companies might have chosen different paths - perhaps they don't invest as heavily in setting (by being prepared to create new IP or games), or they are more upfront about their meta shifts (MtG or Warmachine's doctrine), or perhaps by not having a long-term strategy at all.


And as should have been obvious already, if not after some good posts in this topic: the two Warhammers are pretty unique, at least until recently, in their planned obsolescence. Predestined to be shook up and changed around on a regular basis to boost sales. Other games are not designed like this, as far as I know, and most succeeding editions (one or two at most) do seem like genuine attempts to remedy problems that become apparent over their lifespan. Maybe it's a contributing factor in keeping their parent companies small, particularly in comparison to GW, but it sure seems a lot more authentic, widely-practised, and 'normal' to me.

And thanks to that, and the consumer cult it's built up around itself, I don't know if GW can break out of the usual cycle at this point, and develop Warhammer into a genuine mass battle game. (Hello people from the top of this post) Is that 'normal'?

As I mentioned above, it's a viable long-term business practice - assuming that GW wants to stick with the Warhammer settings and retains a more laid-back approach to their meta.


In Warseer news topics with pics of new releases, how often do you see the response "these are excellent but I've bought enough minis for my army. I'll pass!" :p Personally I've seen more in other topics that fall for the sunk cost fallacy - "I've spent too much money to stop spending it now!"

We must read alternate universe versions of the same threads ;).

static grass
05-09-2013, 07:17
That's too alien and contradictory to believe for even a second. If we're collectors, then why are the rules, and why are they a mechanism to drive sales? That doesn't make any sense - rules are not for collectors. GW simply wouldn't have to bother. Of course they see us as gamers- they're selling WFB, NOT models as an urban myth goes.

Secondly, you claimed they did not care about the sales vehicle, or how broken it is. Now you admit the rules are one but how they can get anywhere on a dead horse is still unexplained. It's like saying they want WFB to prosper but don't care about WFB.



Your logic fails at the most basic level. There's so much wrong in these two sentences I cannot be bothered to point out the details but you should really access at least one working brain cell once in a while.

First off thanks for replying. Both JJ in one of his standard bearer articles and GW in the GW vs chapter house court case studio's referred to us gamers as collectors. The rules are mechanism or provide impetus for us to keep collecting. There are now many small companies making much better miniatures than GW. We could all just buy those instead but WFB remains huge compared to any similar fantasy competitor. On the surface there is no logic for this people want the best minis and yet fork out for GW's but its the rules that drive the sales. The kits match what you need to play and so we pay. King of war is a good example of another company trying to latch on to that.

I never claimed that they don't care about the sales vehicle. It's just that they GW care about their sales vehicle in a very different way to way you the miniature collector do.

I hope my comments are clear enough if they are not they just ask and try not to put words in my mouth. Try to avoid insulting the other posters.

Lord Solar Plexus
05-09-2013, 07:20
However I am extremely confident that the starter set softcover BRB (which is obviously less expensive to produce) heavily cannibalized on the hardcover BRB's sales...


Please explain this. You just claimed we were all forced to buy the expensive crappy product somehow. If everyone bought one or two hardcover books as you say, sales cannot possibly have been cannibalized. Sorry, but you're running in circles.



Most restaurants/clubs/bars will charge for drinks whatever the local/target market supports.


And? Same goes for food, so what's with that artificial differentiation?



Basically once a company is satisfied with turning a handsome profit by catering to a small cross section of the market then why go to the trouble of selling Fiats to the masses when you can keep selling Ferraris to the elite? Will this rumored 9th ed BRB scheme alienate new players? Probably. Will this discourage the existing hardcore WHFB gamers from purchasing it? Probably not.

Once a company is satisfied, it's on a downhill slope. Yeah, just imagine Mercedes would start selling really small cars, say, an A class! Completely unreal, isn't it?

In any case, GW *are* selling both the hardcover and the softcover versions, and if those so-called rumours are to be believed will continue to do so, so again, what the heck is your point? It would make some sense if they were said to only sell the expensive version but that is not the case!

Lastly, you're just reiterating the same popular but illogical argument floating around the net for ages: GW wants to boost sales by purposefully alienating customers, which are only seen as collectors, therefore GW makes rules. Seriously...


It doesn't need to be worse, it just needs to be different.


Not at all. It is not possible to increase sales with a product considered shoddy. Simple as that.



Imagine GW produced the "perfect" edition. How on earth would they be able to release another edition four years later? And given the monetary boost they get when a new edition is released, you can be very sure indeed that regular new editions is a fundamental part of their business plan.


While this totally isn't the point - the point is the ridiculous claim that "making a buck" and "product" and "customers" are completely unrelated and you can increase sales without recognizing the other aspects -, just ask yourself how 90 percent of other businesses do that. The car or phone you buy is hardly considered imperfect, and yet they always release a new model. Or an add-on or DLC for computer games, or whatnot.



So they don't aim to make each new edition strictly better than the last (at least that's not the prime aim; they equally don't try to make things worse which would indeed be perverse), just different.


There you go - the claim here is that they do not care about the state of their product and instead want to increase profit. Since that doesn't go together in a million years, people need to use terms like "force" and "coerce" to try to gloss over the gaps in their argument.

Of course GW does not address everybody's wishes. That's impossible. To claim that they do not address wishes however must be BS - because then they could not sell us a new edition every four years.


First off thanks for replying. Both JJ in one of his standard bearer articles and GW in the GW vs chapter house court case studio's referred to us gamers as collectors. The rules are mechanism or provide impetus for us to keep collecting.


Then it follows that we are gamers. Please take a look at their website: "[Here] are some of the most important Warhammer products ... essentials such as ... the Warhammer Rulebook and the Hobby Starter Set, to items that will add to your experience as a hobbyist, such as the Mighty Empires set."

Of course they see us as gamers. There would be no collectors without gamers (or just a small amount). Whether GW sees that or not is a different kettle but many have assumed they do not.



There are now many small companies making much better miniatures than GW.


Never heard of any I'm afraid.



I never claimed that they don't care about the sales vehicle.


But of course you did: GW sends veterans out into the cold. GW doesn't care about the hobby. GW flagrantly disregards its customers. Now admittedly some of this was not in the context of rules but it ties in neatly because it is structurally the same argument.

I'm sorry but a company that is not interested in its product or any customers cannot satisfy shareholders either and will be bankrupt in no time. As long as the business model works however, which you say it does - s. "high regard for the revenues" -, it provides what those customers want.

static grass
05-09-2013, 10:37
[QUOTE=Lord Solar Plexus;6905182]

I think I understand why you don't get what I am saying. First I am not talking about your opinion or mine. This is GW's opinion. There is no one single truth or logic here. GW refers to us as collectors because it helps them frame their business, their model, how to make money. We can also be defined as hobbists, painters, gamers, fanatics based on our activities. To GW we are collectors - it's our collecting activities that keep them in business ;) I guess that's what matters to them.

I have on my paint bench some cracking Mierce Miniatures Tarvax figures. Just one example.

Lol seriously when did I say GW sends veterans out into the cold? Never! I have been doing this for 22 years and I am still buying Space Marines! If you believe GW flagrantly disregards its customers then that's your opinion but not what we are discussing.

I agree that a company not interested in its product will go bust eventually. Nor did I ever express anything to the contrary. I am certain that GW is extremely interested in the WFB 9th ed just as I am certain the studio team is genuflecting at the accounting department.

Lord Solar Plexus
05-09-2013, 10:48
You've got it backwards I'm afraid. Collectors are not what's making them money. I do understand that you claim this is their position, yet why that could possibly be the case is indeed beyond me. One explanation is that your suggestion is incorrect. The alternative is that GW has no idea about their business. Okkam's says it's the former.

Daigar
05-09-2013, 11:22
Wouldn't reducing the amount of special rules make Fantasy even more of a "shove two bricks together and roll dice until only one remains" than it already is?

static grass
05-09-2013, 12:06
You've got it backwards I'm afraid. Collectors are not what's making them money. I do understand that you claim this is their position, yet why that could possibly be the case is indeed beyond me. One explanation is that your suggestion is incorrect. The alternative is that GW has no idea about their business. Okkam's says it's the former.

Brilliant. You deny the patently true "Collectors are not what's making them money." and then then claim rights to Occam's (or Ockham's) Razor.

You have asked me to develop my thoughts I have done so. They follow a logic and are concise and straightforward but you have not come with anything yourself so you can't use Occam's Razor yet as you don't have a competing hypothesis.

I think that's enough for me.

Verm1s
05-09-2013, 12:41
Wouldn't reducing the amount of special rules make Fantasy even more of a "shove two bricks together and roll dice until only one remains" than it already is?

Not unless they tweaked the basic rules to promote more tactical play. It's not impossible - other companies and game writers (sometimes within GW, in the past) do it. GW's growing heap of special rules can easily be seen as a whole lot of sticking plasters covering the cracks, from one point of view. Unfortunately, from another point of view, the sticking plasters largely define the game and individual armies for many people.* The concentration on minutae; the myriad of rules to memorise; the metagame of listbuilding (with the horrible spectre of mathammer hanging over it) rather than a game of tactics and maneuvre; all appealing to younger minds that soak it up. Problem is it gets too ingrained as 'what wargaming should be' in some minds, as they get older.
As above: lizardmen in-game aren't especially stoic and unflappable because they've got a high basic leadership; they're stoic and unflappable because they've got a special rule that lets them. Lizardmen should have that special rule. But why should they have it? Do they need it? Just how much 'defining flavour' does it, or any given special rule, provide?

*Think about that for a minute. You're savouring the flavour of used sticking plasters. :angel:

Lord Solar Plexus
05-09-2013, 13:07
You deny the patently true "Collectors are not what's making them money."


Precisely. It's the hobby. Unless you / they use the term collectors in a broad sense like buyers, in which case it becomes trivial.

Heck, you even said it yourself: The rules are a mechanism to make us collect. It follows that we wouldn't otherwise. Therefore, collectors is just some formal description. The driving force, and therefore the aspect that *should* by right concern them is the game. Whoever claims this is not the case needs to make a very watertight case, and you have not.

Spinocus
05-09-2013, 17:04
No worries. I'd like to take the opportunity to apologize if my post came out as needlessly snarky.
No need but I appreciate the gesture! I'm actually enjoying our exchange.


GW also has a lot more ongoing investments it needs to pay for - including its retail stores in multiple countries, high quality design and plastic production process, and most of its in-house hobby support. I don't think their higher prices are just a factor of deciding them they can 'milk' their customers - and I understand why aggressively protecting their IP is important to them when they have so much riding on it.

Ah, that's also very true. Then we must assume they are carrying the over the cost of these stores, designs & production processes to the consumer via higher prices. But considering the quality and price of plastic minis being produced by other companies I'm inclined to think that GW's cost of maintaining the stores are a much bigger factor than those other items you mentioned.


I'm not sure I get your argument here. If a veteran gamer just wanted to pick up the BRB, he'd pay $75. If he wants the softcover, he'd have to buy if off someone who paid $100 for the starter set - and who then would need to buy the $75 book if he wanted the rules too. If anything, it seems like GW's coming out ahead on this. And I don't think we can really account for piracy in this argument - that would happen no matter what format GW sells its books in.

Yes, GW wins either way... but how big they win is their primary concern. The starter set was designed to appeal to new gamers and existing GW fans who wanted those minis. In an ideal world people would not be able to buy GW products off the secondary market which is where many people purchased the softcover rules and bits from the starter sets. This loss becomes more pronounced when you consider that the resellers originally purchased the starter kits wholesale from GW. Worst case scenario for GW is to have a new customer buy used products or get said products off the secondary markets. GW is definitely aware of this dynamic, just look at the measures they've taken to curtail bits sellers.


At the same time though, you have to consider how certain products support others even if they run a negative cost / benefit analysis on their own. I'm sure there are many products in GW's hobby or terrain lines that don't make a profit on their own, but support the sales of the rest of their offerings.
Yes, I imagine there are a number of products in their catalog like that but I cannot help but think that the $75 8th ed BRB was one of those products they miscalculated. GW clearly took a different tact with 40K's 6th ed release and offered a two tiered rulebook approach.


I think this was my main bone of contention with your original point. I really don't think that veterans are critical to GW's business model. I don't think it's true that older players necessarily have more spendable income - younger players might not have bigger paychecks, but neither do they have car payments, mortgages, children and retirement savings to budget for. Time to play or hobby becomes scarce for older gamers, so they tend to buy less. And as things change, so do tastes - many older gamers are nostalgic for their old preferences and shun newer products (as evidenced by a lot of discussions on Warseer), or grow out of the hobby entirely. New players, on the other hand, are full of potential revenue and years of loyalty - why not spend your resources on them, rather than old grouches who aren't going to buy new things anyway?

Well I still stand by my position. Perhaps it's a matter of perspective. For me, a 'veteran' GW gamer is simply someone who has stuck around for more than a couple of editions! I view a veteran gamer as a hobbyist who has made playing games more than a casual fancy. They're an enthusiast who regularly spends a certain percentage of their income on their hobby on regular basis. GW certainly wants casuals to play... at least long enough drop a few hundred bucks until they walk away. But it's those hobbyists that are GW's most reliable income source, they'll buy the product regardless of whether or not a GW store is nearby.

I work in the TV/cable industry and have been privy to a number of market research reports that break audiences down by age, sex, vocation, disposable income, etc. The ideal target audience (i.e. 'the demo') is the 25-54 group, especially those on the upper end of that age range. This demo is the group that most companies (especially advertisers) move heaven and earth to appeal to. Yes, it's very true that older consumers have less free time on their hands but they really do have substantially more disposable income to spend and many of them spend it on their spouses and children, the latter being of keen interest to GW. Also while older males have a tendency to purchase fewer luxuries those products have a tendency to lean towards 'big ticket' items that command hundreds or thousands of dollars an item (computers, entertainment centers, sporting event tickets & accessories, big screen TVs, cars, motorcycles, boats, etc.).


I think a lot of that has to do with tournament mindsets. It's possible to have fun with small points limits or model counts, but the typical "you need to spend this much before we'll consider playing with you" culture that tends to crop up certainly can push newcomers away.

Yes, every wargame has a sweet spot and for WHFB that seems to be around the 2K mark and a single starter set certainly won't help you get anywhere near that total unless you load up on an obscene amount of magical items and special characters. This certainly helps model people's view of what is 'normal'. The cost of entry to play an 'average' sized game for non-GW gaming systems is markedly lower (especially when looking at historicals). I also believe there is a fair correlation between power levels for a given army and sales. Keep in mind that the Tomb Kings and Wood Elves are among the worst performing WHFB armies in tournaments and, no surprise, they are also among the least popular armies. Who is on the opposite end of the spectrum in both popularity & performance? Warriors of Chaos. I don't play much outside my gaming group but from what I've read the American WH scene also seems to be more competitive and sensitive to the relative power levels of the various armies. It's either cultural or there's something in the water over here. ;)


I really don't think jaded veterans are the ones spending money - at least based on a lot of the comments I hear around here. Mostly I hear "the new stuff sucks compared to the old stuff" or "I switched to warmachine / flames of war" or "I'm mad GW nerfed my perfect 4th edition army." New players just see sweet robodragons and t-rexes riding other t-rexes.

Ya, older players can get quite set in their ways but not all of them. I've been playing wargames for most of my adolescent & adult life and while I've only been playing WHFB since 2009 but I still get jazzed when I see a new, cool GW model or unit! It's just the price tags and excessive abuse of skulls in GW's approach to art design that makes me gag...


I respect their business practices too. I just don't think that disrespecting their customers is some core value, as is often surmised around here. They just have different priorities than their passionate fans - which makes sense, because a fan's priority would be to pay the minimum amount of money one time for exactly the army they want and can use forever.
Oh, I don't think GW makes a conscious effort to alienate people, I simply believe that they have a particular business model and set of practices that serves their ends well... which also happens to alienate a good chunk of the potential gaming market! Maybe they'll change their ways, maybe not. As of right now GW seems to be doing well enough that there's little incentive for them to change anything.

Spinocus
05-09-2013, 17:18
Your logic fails at the most basic level. There's so much wrong in these two sentences I cannot be bothered to point out the details but you should really access at least one working brain cell once in a while.

With a response like that why the hell would anyone even bother replying to your posts? /Ignored

mbh1127
06-09-2013, 02:38
The single biggest issues are that:

1. The fantasy background is less distinctive and exciting, especially to younger games who seem more drawn to a futuristic setting.

2. The game dynamic has been to push larger mass combat with bigger units at a time when the prices for said units have skyrocketed. I am sure this has lessened the attraction. Viable units are now up to £100 each. Compare to 40k where a complete combat effective unit comes in one box for £15 to £30 (generally).

If they really want to enhance fantasy, they should have a cheaper box of rank and file infantry, maybe snap fit but various poses as with the starter set, that allows you to collect a viable gaming unit for say £30 - for a horde of 40 models of basic infantry.

I agree

the cost of building most fantasy armies must keep people away. If I wasn't already entrenched in the warhammer world, I would never be able to justify paying for this game.

Lord Solar Plexus
06-09-2013, 09:49
GW's growing heap of special rules can easily be seen as a whole lot of sticking plasters covering the cracks, from one point of view.


A highly unlikely point of view. My detachment rules and priest abilities are a defining feature and must be seen as added spice. It's quite fortunate we have them.

The "metagame of listbuilding" (ie. the hours of fun trying to find good combos) and the "horrible sceptre of mathhammer" can and will actually lead to a very involving tactical game of maneouver if the players want that. As prove, take a look at the latest (any, actually) Tactical Exposition Game on Warhammer-Empire.

The alternative of just throwing a random list together has under no edition ever been an option, it isn't a rational or correct critique that could possibly be levelled at 8th, and as an idea should therefore be jettisoned at once.



In an ideal world people would not be able to buy GW products off the secondary market which is where many people purchased the softcover rules and bits from the starter sets. This loss becomes more pronounced when you consider that the resellers originally purchased the starter kits wholesale from GW. Worst case scenario for GW is to have a new customer buy used products or get said products off the secondary markets. GW is definitely aware of this dynamic, just look at the measures they've taken to curtail bits sellers.


All secondary purchases translate into direct revenue for GW. We do not know how many people did buy discounted stuff on ebay or Wayland that they would not have bought at full retail price. What we do know is that prices are one of the biggest concerns for customers. Shutting off the secondary market could well have repercussions worse than a somewhat lower margin for a certain percentage of total product going to onliner resellers. Without any concrete evidence, it's all idle speculation.



Yes, I imagine there are a number of products in their catalog like that but I cannot help but think that the $75 8th ed BRB was one of those products they miscalculated.


That's the problem, you imagine it. Now the two-tier system would give more incentive to buy the more expensive one but then that's cannibalizing sales from the smaller (unless it only has advanced rules, which would p*** off just as many prospective buyers as to be another miscalculation). In any case, it's highly unlikely that these things are so easy to spot for you and me but GW with a sterling record, economically speaking, could not foreshadow them.


With a response like that why the hell would anyone even bother replying to your posts?

So you essentially cannot defend your absurd theory that it serves a company well to alienate its customers and not care about their product. Go figure. Face the truth man, you have no leg to stand on. Ignoring logic won't help.

HereComesTomorrow
06-09-2013, 10:31
I dunno if it's been said but the erumour just said that the rule book will have simplified army rules. Not that it's replacing any army books.

So like it might just list the Abomination, for exple, as a points cost, stat line and a few Universal rules, allowing you to "try before you buy" the main army book, which would have all the tables and more specific rules.

Thats how I interpreted it anyway.

my_name_is_tudor
06-09-2013, 13:31
I'm a long time 40K player who loves a lot of Fantasy models. I bought Island of Blood and after painting more Skaven than I ever want to look at again played a game and found it desperately dull.

It's not just the price that makes the prospect of needing 100 rank and filers to make a fun army horrible. I don't want to have to do that much work on the same models before I can start enjoying myself.

I have Necron, Tau and Eldar armies all around the 40 infantry model mark that are great fun to play with.

Avian
06-09-2013, 13:38
In somewhat unrelated news, Dwarfs are apparently out in February, after Tyranids. According to 40K Radio.

SSquirrel
06-09-2013, 16:09
In somewhat unrelated news, Dwarfs are apparently out in February, after Tyranids. According to 40K Radio.

That's been a relatively common rumor for awhile. Nice to get confirmation from a source that is turning up pretty credible lately tho.

Avian
06-09-2013, 16:11
Well, we "knew" they were the first FB army out next year, but there was some discussion as to the exact month.

Voss
06-09-2013, 17:17
Well, we "knew" they were the first FB army out next year, but there was some discussion as to the exact month.

I've lost track, then. The tentative schedule now is
Oct - Dark Elves
Nov- ?? (Orks?)
Dec- Hobbit
Jan- Tyranids
Feb- Dwarves

Avian
06-09-2013, 17:22
Yeah, and then Imperial Guard after that I believe.

On the FB side, Hastings said he wasn't sure if there would be any more army books after Dwarfs and before 9th edition.

@allmyownbattles
06-09-2013, 18:46
A highly unlikely point of view.

You don't say... I see a trend emerging.

Shifte
07-09-2013, 03:02
Hi folks!

I was a massive WHFB fan and started playing in 5th ed. I had Vampire Counts, Brets, Orcs, Ogres and Dark Elves as my armies and couldn't imagine a time when I wouldn't play my favourite game.

8th edition killed it stone dead for me. You guys who enjoy it might be a bit ignorant of this, but loads of people gave up on fantasy due to the significant rules changes that came about with its release. I'm not trying to have a go at the people who like it, but I will share the three main reasons that led to myself and my group of seven friends quitting the game;

1) Random charges suck. In a game that was defined by manoeuvring, they basically one shotted the main strategic lever of previous editions in a lot of people's eyes. This change ruined my Bretonnians and killed any enjoyment I had for the strategic side of the game.

2) The game became too expensive. I don't have to elaborate on this - 40k is affordable, Fantasy can **** off. In better times, a unit of 20 guys was standard and would set you back £20 at most. Now you'll pay £50 for 20 Great Swords and they'll be considered a small unit.

3) The rise of Monsters and Magic. This begun in late 7th edition with all the Stegadon armies and Star Dragons. Basically, every new release seemed to be defined by some new, giant monster. This isn't to my tastes, and a lot of others seemed put off by it too. Moreover, Magic was scaled up massively and units were getting one shotted. This combined with random power and dispel dice pools (because random is fun, apparently) and exacerbated the overall suckage of the magic phase.

I understand that these views might not apply to yourselves. I also understand that they are subjective judgements. However, they're my reasons for abandoning Fantasy and they would have to be addressed if I was to consider playing again.

Note: I'm tired and will probably make this readable in the morning. Phones suck for posting. :P

IcedCrow
07-09-2013, 03:12
On random charges, there are reams of posts debating that very topic. It is a personal taste. However... there is a ton of strategems that need to be employed on random charges. Its not a gimme guarantee anymore.

Going back to static charges for me would probably do what random charges did to you.

Targ Ironfist
07-09-2013, 07:12
Hi Shifte,

I am a veteran gamer, who started at the end of 4th edition and quit in the middle of the 6th. The reason was total boredom of a measure game. I was able to guess any range with a 1" tolerance, so sort of should have enjoyed that, right? Nope.

The game had a huge subculture concerned on cheating in measuring ranges etc. (Premeasured body parts, missusing artilery to measure distances...)
Also those super predictable charges were no fun at all as that does not correspond with battlefield reality at all.

Huge aspect of that game was novice players comming - unable to measure ranges by guess loosing a ton and fleeing the game. I used to organize a club then and half the new people, who left was not because of the price (and my country is quite poor), but the need to guess in inches.

In my case, 8th edition has persuaded me to come back and enjoy it hugely. There are things that are a bit unrealistic (some types manouvering are quite misused by rules lawyers and in time became the unhealthy norm), but outside of that the game made a huge leap in my eyes.

It got rid of the "I kill the first rank and You stand here and let yourself be slaughtered" principle, game became full of manouver and countermanouver and there is reason to use solid blocks of infantry that give the game to be a feel of a game of battles, not skirmishes.

Only thing that the game misses now (outside of more balancing the armies in a fun and distinctive way) is more formations, getting rid of some unclear parts of rules/claryfying them and maybe a set of skirmish rules that would allow people to play smaller games with those 40 models of Yours.

To the price increase: 3 reasons for that. Inflation (is pretty high), exchange power of the GBP (british pound) and a relatively low level of competition (that might change drasticaly, but I am speaking about the present) in this gaming area. No other gaming system I know of is so hugely developed as the GW ones is.

I do not think it is wise of GW to rise the price so drasticaly as they open the space for competition like AoW, but I am looking forwards to it as in a more competitive market the cumster (e.g. we guys) wins.
---

So just looking forward to the 9th edition that has a good chance of being better or at least so good as this one is. Cheers! :D :skull:

Shifte
07-09-2013, 11:20
Random charges as they are aren't any more realistic than the previous system, though. Just because it works for Infantry doesn't mean it works. If my Bretonnians Knights are 15" away from an opponent and roll poorly to charge, they'll move 1" to 5" forwards (potentially) and make it easier for the block of Spearmen to counter charge. I watched this happen twice in my first game of 8th edition and the fact that it wasn't THAT unlikely really put me off. The fact is a unit of Knights charging clean at a slow infantry block SHOULD get the charge almost every single time.

I can't tell you if Cavalry units are effective in 8th, because i don't play it and just got pissed off at how easily they could get charged. It doesn't even matter to me if it can be balanced, because in my opinion the concept itself is stupid. Nor can I tell you that you should prefer 8th to the older editions. I just happened to misclick this forum, seen someone ask why 40% (apparently) of players quit, and thought I'd explain why I did.

A lot if us left WHFB due to the reasons like the ones I stated. They will probably be able to get some of us back if they move away from the "random is fun!" and "BIG EXPENSIVE UNITS AND MONSTERS YAY BUY THEM ALL" attitude that suddenly developed. I'm actually kind of glad that their blatant consumer abuse may have bitten them on the **** with WHFB. Hell mend them, and I hope they learn a lesson. :P

Lord Solar Plexus
07-09-2013, 12:08
I will share the three main reasons that led to myself and my group of seven friends quitting the game;


I know I'm guilty of this myself and these supposed rumours are hardly very interesting but are you sure you're in the correct thread?

Shifte
07-09-2013, 12:16
I know I'm guilty of this myself and these supposed rumours are hardly very interesting but are you sure you're in the correct thread?

I only checked this thread out because I misclicked this forum, seen the post and thought; "Maybe the rumours will reverse some of the things I disliked". I then read the thread and I noticed a post which asked why so many folk had left the game, so I thought I'd give my own perspective and share what I'd like to see addressed in 9th Edition. I think it was relatedly on topic, at the very least. Either way, I don't intend to keep up the discussion. I figure I've answered that chap's question and made my own views clear enough. :)

Lord Solar Plexus
07-09-2013, 14:38
Certainly. You'll forgive me when I say I hope most of them stay as they are! :)

finaglista
07-09-2013, 19:34
Hm, when i am reading this tread i am not sure what i am reading about next editon or about fantasy "problems".
Anyway i would like to say that when pepople are "crying" how bad this random charg is, you should think about fantasy a bit, what iwas random before and it was just fine with everyone:

- well i would say machines scater which was rendom before, but this is just fine with every body
- magic, if you roll bad spell won't cast...
- you didn't know for sure if enemy is in close or long range, random again...
- next thing is about charg, it could be great for vet/s to know how far it is, but for many people it is just to hard to say, so i vote for random and if Bretonnian army can't charg, well my friend than you are doing something wrong.
- will you pess a LD test.. I mean this game is DICE game, i hope no one can say ther is no luck in it!

Than some of you mention too many monster, really???? Well i don't know how you play in your countries, but i would like to say i would realy like to see more of them, we even put -50 or -100 point on some and all the dragons, as they are just not good enough, you have few monsteres that are relly good like: HPA, Hydra... but mostly they are just to expens for what they do, so i don't know what is GW doing when they release new monster with price in points like 200+ and monster just suck... liem Lizardmen army for an example.
But why people start playing 40k rather than fantasy is mainly becous of BIG tanks, BIG creatures and not of small infantry units, so YES if we are playing fantasy i want to see some monsters and BIG ones on the tabel and it would be very sad if we will watch only blocks of inf/cav...

Lord Solar Plexus
07-09-2013, 19:52
Anyway i would like to say that when pepople are "crying" how bad this random charg is, you should think about fantasy a bit, what iwas random before and it was just fine with everyone:


It's a matter of degrees, which are defined by personal taste I understand. It's just not something GW could get right for everyone. Just because you could have a bad round of shooting, you don't have to like random something else.

Anyways, that's still not a rumour...

andyg2006
07-09-2013, 20:15
Actually a simplified rule book with the starter sounds like exactly the next step on their exploitive path following the last Hobbit boxed game. The Escape from Goblin Town game contained a rule book which had all the core rules, but none of the game profiles which could only be accessed via the large format rule book. So after forking out a lot of money for the set you then had to buy the large format book if you wanted to go any further into the game.

A simplified rule book will do exactly that, force players to buy the full rule book before they can go any further. IMHO its actually a really bad idea because it presents yet another cost-barrier to new players wanting to get into the game, and it makes the starter set undesirable to veteran players who use it as a way to get a copy of the rules and a raft of new models at the same time. I used the WH 7th Starter and the 40K 6th starter to begin new armies and get a rule book into the bargain, I certainly wont be doing this if the rule book is functionally useless for playing the game beyond the starter set scenarios.

Yup, that's exactly what I was meaning, too.

Fear Ghoul
07-09-2013, 20:37
Random charges as they are aren't any more realistic than the previous system, though. Just because it works for Infantry doesn't mean it works. If my Bretonnians Knights are 15" away from an opponent and roll poorly to charge, they'll move 1" to 5" forwards (potentially) and make it easier for the block of Spearmen to counter charge. I watched this happen twice in my first game of 8th edition and the fact that it wasn't THAT unlikely really put me off. The fact is a unit of Knights charging clean at a slow infantry block SHOULD get the charge almost every single time.

A cavalry unit failing a charge from 15" away but moving forward enough that an average infantry unit can then roll high enough to counter-charge is actually really unlikely.

@allmyownbattles
08-09-2013, 00:08
A cavalry unit failing a charge from 15" away but moving forward enough that an average infantry unit can then roll high enough to counter-charge is actually really unlikely.

Not that unlikely. Average rolls would do it.

Say the cav move 7. An average roll of 7 is a fail and so the cav move four inches. The distance is now 11 thus the 4 moving infantry require another average 7 to make the charge.

I actually really like random charges though (a general wouldn't have total control on the battlefield).

Morgion
08-09-2013, 00:26
Actually a simplified rule book with the starter sounds like exactly the next step on their exploitive path following the last Hobbit boxed game. The Escape from Goblin Town game contained a rule book which had all the core rules, but none of the game profiles which could only be accessed via the large format rule book. So after forking out a lot of money for the set you then had to buy the large format book if you wanted to go any further into the game.

A simplified rule book will do exactly that, force players to buy the full rule book before they can go any further. IMHO its actually a really bad idea because it presents yet another cost-barrier to new players wanting to get into the game, and it makes the starter set undesirable to veteran players who use it as a way to get a copy of the rules and a raft of new models at the same time. I used the WH 7th Starter and the 40K 6th starter to begin new armies and get a rule book into the bargain, I certainly wont be doing this if the rule book is functionally useless for playing the game beyond the starter set scenarios.

So, in summation, you won't buy product that isn't aimed towards you? I'm pretty sure not only is GW ok with that, but it's kind of the point.

dementian
08-09-2013, 00:47
Not that unlikely. Average rolls would do it.

Say the cav move 7. An average roll of 7 is a fail and so the cav move four inches. The distance is now 11 thus the 4 moving infantry require another average 7 to make the charge.

I actually really like random charges though (a general wouldn't have total control on the battlefield).

Average with Swiftstride is not 7. Cavalry have swiftstride.

Morgion
08-09-2013, 00:50
Not that unlikely. Average rolls would do it.

Say the cav move 7. An average roll of 7 is a fail and so the cav move four inches. The distance is now 11 thus the 4 moving infantry require another average 7 to make the charge.

I actually really like random charges though (a general wouldn't have total control on the battlefield).

A general would also move a unit into position to compensate for a failed charge. Still, when ever you fail in warhammer, it seems to be of the crushing variety.

@allmyownbattles
08-09-2013, 06:35
Average with Swiftstride is not 7. Cavalry have swiftstride.

This is true. Silly me.

Elly_Banearrow
08-09-2013, 21:29
Average with Swiftstride is not 7. Cavalry have swiftstride.
Where does it say that all cavalry has swiftstride? I looked in my rulebook (the small one that comes in the high elf/skaven combo box) and even the online FAQ and it does not say they cavalry has swiftstride. I was looking at my Wood Elf book, and it doesn't say in there either.

Edit: Maybe what I am thinking is that Fast Cav don't have swiftstride?

hardyworld
08-09-2013, 21:38
Page 82 of the 8th Ed. has the answer you seek.

Fast Cavalry do not automatically have swiftstride (see the note at the end of the Fast Cavalry Rules on page 68).

Avian
08-09-2013, 21:42
For those interested, the average charge range for a unit with Swiftstride is approximately M + 8.5".

hardyworld
09-09-2013, 00:08
Average doesn't mean nearly as much as the median in statistics, and the median is M+9".

While initially not being a fan of rolling for charge distances, I'm now a huge fan. Is it perfect? Maybe not. Maybe a better system is M + (D6 for infantry & MI, 2D6 for Cav, MC, Beasts, Monsters, chariots, etc. where ALL categories rolls an additional die and discards the lowest value....swiftstride could still exist where some units, in any unit classification, roll an additional die and discard the 2 lowest)

Ghorros Ghorrosson
09-09-2013, 14:24
Page 82 of the 8th Ed. has the answer you seek.

Fast Cavalry do not automatically have swiftstride (see the note at the end of the Fast Cavalry Rules on page 68).

:confused: Cavalry has swiftstride. Fast Cavalry gets all the Cavalry rules plus some more. Therefore Fav Cav gets swiftstride. Or hav I been playing this wrong all along?

hardyworld
09-09-2013, 19:56
Cavalry have Swiftstride, yes. Fast Cavalry rule does not automatically get the Cavalry rules, as noted in the rulebook on page 68 (so your 2nd statement is incorrect, Ghorros). Basically it says that the Fast Cavalry rule does not override or apply a unit type to a unit, so you can have a unit of War Beasts, for example, that are Fast Cavalry. The fact that War Beasts, or Cavalry, rule provides a unit with Swiftstride has nothing to do with the Fast Cavalry rule (which, as I pointed out, does not provide a unit with swiftstride). I don't know of any Fast Cavalry units that do not have Swiftstride, but Swiftstride is provided by either the unit type and/or the Flying special rule in all the cases I know.

Icarus81
09-09-2013, 21:38
Thanks! :D

It only works here with the Warseer emotes, because :shifty: is :shifty:.

Sales of WHFB are down 40% over the previous edition and people claim WHFB has disappeared from most play areas in the USA (if the internet is to believed). It was already the weaker system in the US and the edition angered a good chunk of the player base enough to cause them to leave.

What is your source for this information? Profits are up and the investor report gives no breakout of product-line performance that I can see.

Rake
10-09-2013, 16:34
So, hold on... Wait...

Does this mean that the whole Armies of Order vs Armies of Disorder rumor is dead? Can I celebrate the continuation of dozens of different armies or is that rumor still around? Please tell me it's in the ground where it needs to be and everything after that will be ok...

Theocracity
10-09-2013, 16:41
So, hold on... Wait...

Does this mean that the whole Armies of Order vs Armies of Disorder rumor is dead? Can I celebrate the continuation of dozens of different armies or is that rumor still around? Please tell me it's in the ground where it needs to be and everything after that will be ok...

Since neither rumor has been confirmed, or even explained in enough detail to really know what to expect beyond wild guesses, I wouldn't spend too much time worrying about it.

Surgency
10-09-2013, 16:44
Since neither rumor has been confirmed, or even explained in enough detail to really know what to expect beyond wild guesses, I wouldn't spend too much time worrying about it.

Nonsense! This is warseer, where the mere hint of a suggestion of a vague rumour is reason enough to cry "the sky is falling" and decry GW for horrible design policies! :banghead:

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2

Ulodwor
10-09-2013, 16:56
Since neither rumor has been confirmed, or even explained in enough detail to really know what to expect beyond wild guesses, I wouldn't spend too much time worrying about it.

As I understood it the previous 9th edition thread, where that particular rumor was discussed, was killed because it talked too much. Somehow I found the silence which followed less than reassuring.

Theocracity
10-09-2013, 18:03
As I understood it the previous 9th edition thread, where that particular rumor was discussed, was killed because it talked too much. Somehow I found the silence which followed less than reassuring.

I don't have any insight on why that thread disappeared, but I do know that a lot of what was said was much more vague than the way Warseer usually treats it. Any detailed talk of compendium codices is rooted in speculation that was spun off from that thread rather than the conversation's content itself, so I don't think its worth worth worrying about how GW will actually handle things until we have some more information.

Racanishu
11-09-2013, 11:54
I hope they do a good change in the new edition, 8th ed is very simple and in my opinion its done for unskilled players. I think that 6th and 7th were much better editions, in 8th the cavalry is totally useless. The previus editions were based in the skill of the player and not only in the army and luck

MLP
11-09-2013, 14:30
I hope they do a good change in the new edition, 8th ed is very simple and in my opinion its done for unskilled players. I think that 6th and 7th were much better editions, in 8th the cavalry is totally useless. The previus editions were based in the skill of the player and not only in the army and luck

See I'm am the opposite. I've played since 5th and this is by far the most balanced, tactical, enjoyable edition yet. Yeah there's still issues with it but many less than their used to be in previous editions.

And cavalry is by no means useless now they're just not the massive hammer unit they used to be.

Nkari
11-09-2013, 20:40
My only problem with 8th edition is the 8 lores in the book, specifically, life, death and shadow, all with mega uber number 6 spells, and they all play with the stats of units way to much, and that many spells just kills MODELS, without even a magic resistance save.
Drop the charge range to 1D6 for normal guys and 3d6 pick the highest 2 for ppl with swiftstride. Oh, and make cavalry guys and rat ogre riding skaven in units able to get lookout sir again and I will be very satisfied with 8th.. add nice sige rules and its done.. =)

cornonthecob
11-09-2013, 20:46
I don't understand why so many people are saying that 7th was better then 8th when it CLEARLY wasn't. The game was being broken by codex creep (I know they are armybooks but 'army book creep' doesn't sound as good) as well as the stupid cavalry and 'remove first rank no more attack' syndrome.

Knifeparty
11-09-2013, 20:55
I hope they do a good change in the new edition, 8th ed is very simple and in my opinion its done for unskilled players. I think that 6th and 7th were much better editions, in 8th the cavalry is totally useless. The previus editions were based in the skill of the player and not only in the army and luck

I completely disagree. 8th is the best there has ever been so far, cavalry is far from useless, I run heavy cavalry lists with all of my armies and win consistently in a very competitive environment.

7th edition went like this. I'm going to take this unit of cavalry, stick 4 high initiative/strength/toughness characters in it and charge your unit from a predetermined distance, kill your whole front rank with no retaliation and win, lather, rinse, repeat.

Azazyll
11-09-2013, 21:13
How is this still in News and Rumors?

Silvertongue
13-09-2013, 03:31
Nice rules were defined above, but the changing one can't suit so like the other one's. Only this one a little screams out while other's would be good.
What on Earth is that supposed to mean?

Ramius4
13-09-2013, 03:36
What on Earth is that supposed to mean?

Can't you tell?

You’ve got to be kidding me. I’ve been further even more decided to use even go need to do look more as anyone can. Can you really be far even as decided half as much to use go wish for that? My guess is that when one really been far even as decided once to use even go want, it is then that he has really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like. It’s just common sense! :p (sorry! I couldn't resist)

In all seriousness, I would guess that he is a non-native english speaker.

lybban
13-09-2013, 05:33
Can't you tell?

Youíve got to be kidding me. Iíve been further even more decided to use even go need to do look more as anyone can. Can you really be far even as decided half as much to use go wish for that? My guess is that when one really been far even as decided once to use even go want, it is then that he has really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like. Itís just common sense! :p (sorry! I couldn't resist)

In all seriousness, I would guess that he is a non-native english speaker.

Hahaha funniest post on warseer so far!!! Made my day!

Ramius4
14-09-2013, 15:08
Hahaha funniest post on warseer so far!!! Made my day!

Thank you very much ;)

Lord Dan
14-09-2013, 15:18
So the rumors are from Faeit, and state that GW will be making a move which would drastically cut back on their absurdly-high-margin Army Book sales?

I'm not sure there's much to see here, guys.

Soundwave
14-09-2013, 15:45
So the rumors are from Faeit, and state that GW will be making a move which would drastically cut back on their absurdly-high-margin Army Book sales?

I'm not sure there's much to see here, guys.

I agree here i can not see G.W bunching books together.As far as the suppliment trend goes then yes we can expect a hell of alot more of these for Fantasy soon enough.

Shimmergloom
14-09-2013, 16:04
I think if anything, what they'll do is put out an overpriced get you by book for out of date armies and then you'll have to buy their individual army books again when they release proper individual army books for them.

That's been the trend.

Make you shell out money for hardcovers.

Then they started making 7th edition army book players, shell out money for wave release white dwarf rules. And then make you shell out more money when the real army book for them come out a few months later.

The next logical rip off your customers step is to make people shell out money for get you by hardcover books, before you have to shell out money again for individual army books.

shelfunit.
14-09-2013, 16:44
I agree here i can not see G.W bunching books together.As far as the suppliment trend goes then yes we can expect a hell of alot more of these for Fantasy soon enough.

In some ways I can, but if they do then I can see these books being released a lot quicker than the individual books were, perhaps every 2 years for the popular armies and every 4 years for the... less popular ones. They would (of course) cost more than an individual army book, so the player would (if they didn't own all the armies contained in the book) be paying more than the curret system.

@allmyownbattles
14-09-2013, 18:12
Hahaha funniest post on warseer so far!!! Made my day!

And also fairly offensive if English isn't his first language.

I've never seen any truth in the rumour that all the books are being compiled in one book, maybe two or three books, until now: the idea that they'd loose out on book sales seems to make sense in theory (no need to buy expensive army books) but in practice the compiled armies book would cost more than one for a single force.

I'm guessing many of the younger players have a single army so, instead of everyone paying £25 for a book and some people buying a second or third, they charge £40/50 for a compilation which EVERYONE needs to play and which most people won't use most of.

To avoid loosing out on sales from those of us that buy multiple army books anyway, they could, as some have suggested, split it over two or three related compilations. Thus making someone like me (dwarfs and beastmen) spend 2 X £40 on the 'Forces of Chaos' and 'Forces of Good' books. Darn!

Avian
14-09-2013, 19:08
That sounds quite risky to me. I'm sure quite a few people would instead go for something like 40k (or worse!) if the rules for FB suddenly got noticeably more expensive.

lybban
14-09-2013, 20:02
[QUOTE=@allmyownbattles;6916270]And also fairly offensive if English isn't his first language.

It would be way more offensive if english was his or her first language. Then the laugh would on his/her intelligence. Now its about trying to make a point without having the slightest idea of the language involved. Funny in my book.

lybban
14-09-2013, 20:03
Also ill be fine when getting laughed at for my three beer iphone spelling.

Lord Solar Plexus
14-09-2013, 20:52
So the rumors are from Faeit, and state that GW will be making a move which would drastically cut back on their absurdly-high-margin Army Book sales?

Pretty much. The reason, according to some, is that they do not care about the hobby or the game and apparently would prefer to only sell dolls. Another reason to skip sales is they want to rip you off and alienate players.

It's a wild theory to say the least. :)

irishfarmer
14-09-2013, 22:50
I am surprised this thread has been allowed to go this far. The last thread that got closed had more substance to it than this one does.

Morgion
14-09-2013, 22:55
Pretty much. The reason, according to some, is that they do not care about the hobby or the game and apparently would prefer to only sell dolls. Another reason to skip sales is they want to rip you off and alienate players.

It's a wild theory to say the least. :)

I've always loved the idea that GW does everything out of personal spite for every single one of us and apathy about the products that drive their business. It's right up there with every business decision is motivated solely by making a quick buck. Like it's a company of '60s comic book villains.

SSquirrel
15-09-2013, 05:15
I've always loved the idea that GW does everything out of personal spite for every single one of us and apathy about the products that drive their business. It's right up there with every business decision is motivated solely by making a quick buck. Like it's a company of '60s comic book villains.

Nah, a silent movie villain twirling his mustache while the Wood Elves and Brets are tied to the railroad tracks :)

Mike3791
15-09-2013, 08:11
I am surprised this thread has been allowed to go this far. The last thread that got closed had more substance to it than this one does.

Mods are on vacation :p

Lord Solar Plexus
15-09-2013, 17:33
I've always loved the idea that GW does everything out of personal spite for every single one of us and apathy about the products that drive their business. It's right up there with every business decision is motivated solely by making a quick buck. Like it's a company of '60s comic book villains.

Haha, you've nailed it. Tom "Doofenshmirtz" Kirby...

Captain Cortez
18-09-2013, 01:15
Haha, you've nailed it. Tom "Doofenshmirtz" Kirby...

Dang you beat me to it haha. 1+.

I think 9th ed will make or break Fantasy in my opinion.

Ender Shadowkin
18-09-2013, 05:49
Dang you beat me to it haha. 1+.

I think 9th ed will make or break Fantasy in my opinion.

bah, ;), bunch of people will rage quit and leave, a few will allegedly rage quit and keep playing/ posting how horrible things are, a group of new folks will join, always a few returning folks ( kids are old enough to play now or realize raging only hurts themselves), and most of use will ride the wave and throw dice. Just like every edition before, change always remains the same.

Trustey
18-09-2013, 08:04
I am all for simplifying the rules. I can't tell you how many people have watched play in our hobby shop and simply said "good luck with all that, it's way too complicated for me."
This game is seriously slow. It is insanely difficult to pin down players with conflicting work schedules and families when the games last as long as they do. And anything over 2 players/2500 is glacial pace.
Also, my kids would enjoy it.

Capt._Jaelinek
18-09-2013, 10:02
Honestly I think 8th Ed is pretty solid in general, but I have 2 big issues. The rest are minor gripes.

1. Magic is not scaleable. A 500pt or 5000pt game has the same magic phase. Totally random, game breaking, and abused as often as possible. I preferred the less powerful but more predictable 7th Ed rules.
2. Monster nerf due to steadfast. 5 rnf are steadfast against a dragon in their flank?! Wtf seriously?

Anyone heard 9th Ed magic rumors? That's the big change IMO that will make of break 9th.

Tigranius
18-09-2013, 11:32
I have watched Gw become more and more commercial over the last years. Simplifying the rules means lowering the bar to get into the hobby for future players.
Which means more sales oppertunity. Not suprised to see this, and i understand the business point. The Fantasy games might not like the idea of it, but they are already this for in, they will not stop playing.
Smart move by GW.

Fixing magic for big games: great plan!

Lord Solar Plexus
18-09-2013, 13:26
There's a separate gripe & grievances thread in General, guys.

draccan
18-09-2013, 14:21
I don't even want to think about the prices for 9th.

Korpacz
18-09-2013, 17:03
Funny how people are already complaining Abouy 9th Ed. I heard a lot of people quit due to 8th Ed but from what I can tell everyone seems to think 8th Ed is the best edition so far. I hope people don't rage quit when the new edition comes out only to find out a year later that it's actually better than the previous edition.

Ramius4
18-09-2013, 17:06
Funny how people are already complaining Abouy 9th Ed. I heard a lot of people quit due to 8th Ed but from what I can tell everyone seems to think 8th Ed is the best edition so far. I hope people don't rage quit when the new edition comes out only to find out a year later that it's actually better than the previous edition.

And thus, it will ever be. I've heard the exact same complaints every edition since 4th edition changed to 5th.

hardyworld
18-09-2013, 23:01
Honestly I think 8th Ed is pretty solid in general, but I have 2 big issues. The rest are minor gripes.

1. Magic is not scaleable. A 500pt or 5000pt game has the same magic phase. Totally random, game breaking, and abused as often as possible. I preferred the less powerful but more predictable 7th Ed rules.
2. Monster nerf due to steadfast. 5 rnf are steadfast against a dragon in their flank?! Wtf seriously?
I generally concur.

The base rules for magic dice generation are fine, but could be enhanced with each mage channeling on a 5+ and rolling the number of channel dice equal to their magic level (this would go hand-in-hand with mages no longer getting a cast/dispel bonus equal to their level....or maybe +1 for level 1&2 and +2 for level 3&4). This way the number of magic dice scales based on what you bring (and how big the battle). Additionally, for large games (3000+) you could roll 3 dice at the beginning of the phase to determine number of power die (the number of dispel die being the sum of the high and low die) (DoC would have to use 2 die of the same color, and 1 not, to determine their special rule)...this is actually how my game group plays it and the Power to Dispel die ratio is extremely close to the standard rules, so it works perfectly. You could also have the maximum number of power dice (and dispel dice) in the phase limited based on the size of the game (0-1000 pts: 9 PD/DD max, 1001-3000 pts: 12 PD/DD max, 3001-6000 pts: 18 PD/DD max, 6001+ pts: 24 PD/DD max). The idea of the Miscast table effects including the number of dice rolled when casting the spell (which many have suggested) makes a lot of sense too.

The Steadfast rule is a good concept, but would be better if they were limited to a "-2" combat resolution on break tests instead of holding ground on an unmodified leadership.
OR, reintroducing the "lose combat to a fear-causing enemy" rule by applying "-1" combat resolution modifier that still affects Steadfast units (and a "-2" for Terror-causing enemy combat resolution modifier that still affects Steadfast units. It would make Fear/Terror better and not overpowered (it only applies after combat resolution is resolved, so it only helps the fear-causers if they actually win combat).

A few simple thoughts that may make the game even better.

brassangel
19-09-2013, 00:53
Honestly I think 8th Ed is pretty solid in general, but I have 2 big issues. The rest are minor gripes.

1. Magic is not scaleable. A 500pt or 5000pt game has the same magic phase. Totally random, game breaking, and abused as often as possible. I preferred the less powerful but more predictable 7th Ed rules.
2. Monster nerf due to steadfast. 5 rnf are steadfast against a dragon in their flank?! Wtf seriously?

Anyone heard 9th Ed magic rumors? That's the big change IMO that will make of break 9th.

This is such a perfect assessment. Probably in the wrong thread, but this nails down, explicitly, what the problems are with 8th. Some armies are magic-dependent, but then have entire phases where they can't do anything. Other armies have 1100 points of units wiped out in a turn by a Purple Sun. The Steadfast rule is absurd as well. Encouraging Core choices is cool and all, but that rule just doesn't make sense.

Another quirk lies in the movement phase: arguably the most important part of WHFB, a perfect strategy in the movement phase can be wiped out by the goofy charge rules. In 40k, this is mitigated by things like Fleet, a 6" movement to get in better position, lots of ranged combat, etc. Psychic powers in 40k are drawn from a table too, but they are cast reliably every turn. That's the difference between the games right now: 40k is more in the hands of the general to decide, while Fantasy is needlessly complicated, but doesn't reward great generalship. 40k also moves at a much faster pace.

I keep wanting to get back into the game, but I need to see some of these changes.

Warhammer Fantasy is in the same position as Dungeons & Dragons: great history, large following, but the last edition of the game undid key things that made it worth playing. Sales steadily declined as a result, and the next edition will determine it's fate.

SteveW
19-09-2013, 05:19
I just don't see a company doing a 180 on the armybooks, ever. These are the same guys that though one book to cover undead wasn't enough, the same guys that thought we needed three(4 with dwarfs) separate Chaos books. I think these rumors would be more in line with reality if they had a new book per Bret Dukedom, or Empire state. With GW less is never more, unless it's models per box.

To the guy who said collectors are not what GW makes their money off of, how do you explain that $11,690 Space marine chapter that they are pretty much willing to hand deliver to you with? That's not just an army, it's a collectors wet dream.

MiyamatoMusashi
19-09-2013, 08:12
Funny how people are already complaining Abouy 9th Ed. I heard a lot of people quit due to 8th Ed but from what I can tell everyone seems to think 8th Ed is the best edition so far. I hope people don't rage quit when the new edition comes out only to find out a year later that it's actually better than the previous edition.

"Everyone"? No. I don't, I think it's awful. So that's at least one. I suspect I'm not alone.

The people still playing probably think it's the best, but that's why they're still playing. Are the number of people still playing (and buying) more or less than 7th Ed, that's what matters.

Harry
20-09-2013, 11:01
Maybe Dwarfs, Skaven, and Beastmen too. . .Dwarves? Skaven? Does that seem likely to you?


Each and every rumour is an invention. Nobody can possibly know *anything* unless the supposed new edition comes out next week. This is simply not true. Lots of people know stuff. Whether those are the people posting on the interwebz is another thing. :D


Indeed, there's no reason it has to be next year based on historical precedent alone. (Though GW seem quite happy to keep following established patterns in all other respects).

But there's rumours it's next year, and there's strong precedent for it being a four year cycle. At that point the question being asked should not be "is there any reason to think it's next year?", but "is there any reason to think it isn't?" (I've heard a couple of mutterings that it might be the year after, but they're pretty quiet compared to the strong murmurs saying next year).

The person I was replying to clearly didn't want to believe it was next year ("not 2014 surely?") but what particular individuals want and what GW actually do are unrelated.
I originally posted that it was 2014. (Just because of the time scale I started to hear bits and bobs) But hastings said he had heard it was 2015 ... and I always bow to his knowledge as he tends to deal in facts ... where as I deal in rumour. :D


Thing is here, they don't just 'switch the releases' like that, it is planned out way too in advance for this.
But however, Dark Elves are October not Dwarfs anyway. Dwarfs never were, I did say that way back when.
I'm also pretty sure H&H were on that same track also.Yup I think we were. Things don't need to be moved. The army out in six months time will be sitting their finished even as I type this. The book will be finished and with the printer. The models will be finished, painted, photographed and sitting around the studio gathering dust. Most projects are slotted into a pretty tight schedule, start on time and finish on time.




On the FB side, Hastings said he wasn't sure if there would be any more army books after Dwarfs and before 9th edition.
Yes he did ... and I never quite followed this. I knew Dwarves were coming .... but if 9th was not until 2015 there was almost a year gap.
Maybe he just didn't know for sure if more books were coming or which ones at that point (Where as he did know that dark elves and Dwarves were definitely happening) rather than saying he didn't think they were doing more books ... if that makes sense?


So, hold on... Wait...

Does this mean that the whole Armies of Order vs Armies of Disorder rumor is dead? Can I celebrate the continuation of dozens of different armies or is that rumor still around? Please tell me it's in the ground where it needs to be and everything after that will be ok...That was only ever a guess based on my rumour that there would be a Warhammer armies book. (and I didn't know if that would be one book, two books or more books.... I had just heard there would be more than just a big rule book). If this rumour is to be believed the Warhammer armies book I heard about may just be a 'get you by book' (Ravenous hordes style) as all the armies will not have a very recently updated book. It maybe that they are just trying to enable/encourage folks to collect and play with whatever minis they like without having to invest in a whole nother amy book? It maybe be that they are just lifting the whole armies bit out of the rule book so you don't need to be a power lifter to consult the rules. :D
From what I heard I think it is a bigger deal than this. However, When I heard this I honestly don't think they had decided exactly what it was going to be.


And thus, it will ever be. I've heard the exact same complaints every edition since 4th edition changed to 5th.Now this is true. :D

(... and whilst I think it was very clever :D ... I don't think we should make fun of those learning English .... they do a damn sight better with our language than most of us ever do with theirs. :D)

DeathlessDraich
20-09-2013, 11:47
This is simply not true. Lots of people know stuff. Whether those are the people posting on the interwebz is another thing. :D
)

A truism! :) The top brass, the nominated writers and designers will know at the inception stage and so will playtesters and some administrators later on. That's a few dozen I make it.

Of those above that I know, none are members of Warseer and IIRC, one who was a member left years ago.
I've lost touch with 2 past playtesters but even during that time they refused to divulge details except in a cryptic or general way so that rumours cannot be traced back to them.

Security and the 'leaks plugging' are probably more stringent recently considering the lack of rumours.





(... and whilst I think it was very clever :D ... I don't think we should make fun of those learning English .... they do a damn sight better with our language than most of us ever do with theirs. :D)

Yes, I totally agree and would endorse that all the way - Oui, Da, Tak, Ja, Si and Ole' to that.
Overseas interest, participation and sales of Warhammer products => Improvement in our Balance of Payments and Tax revenue => More funds for public services and an improvement in our well-being.
So, let's be grateful to all overseas Warhammer enthusiasts for making life in the UK more pleasant. :)

DeathlessDraich
20-09-2013, 11:49
On another note - 10th Ed is an anniversary edition and 9th's release and form is probably being influenced by thoughts of 10th?

Lord Solar Plexus
20-09-2013, 11:54
To the guy who said collectors are not what GW makes their money off of, how do you explain that $11,690 Space marine chapter that they are pretty much willing to hand deliver to you with? That's not just an army, it's a collectors wet dream.

I don't think we can infer from this offer what might be the main motivation to buy plastic dolls for the mostest, or what GW thinks it is. We don't know which volume of sales they expect. It might also function as an eyecatcher, a thing to stir the pot and get people talking about GW (and some already say they went mental)...it's not a lot of work I suppose to put it online, they already have the product(s). I'm not saying it wouldn't appeal to collectors or that there aren't any. My point is rather: How do you explain the not so cheap rule- and armybooks if it's supposedly mainly collectors who drive the sales?

It isn't really an issue worth fighting over though, and I apologize if I came across as harsh in the past. There will supposedly be new rules, we'll look at them if we are players and not if we're collectors and then make up our minds accordingly, right?



This is simply not true. Lots of people know stuff.


Probably, although in the light of the dearth of rumours and the absence of some of our most highly valued members :-) I would have no idea who those people are and whether the little tidbits are from them.

I'm not sure why exactly a coming Warhammer Armies book created such a ruckus. Don't we already all have Warhammer Armies books? Did we/you/someone infer from that it would contain several armies, or was that an additional info? Because the former would be a huge leap in logic, no?

Harry
20-09-2013, 12:03
A truism! :) The top brass, the nominated writers and designers will know at the inception stage and so will playtesters and some administrators later on. That's a few dozen I make it.

Of those above that I know, none are members of Warseer and IIRC, one who was a member left years ago.
I've lost touch with 2 past playtesters but even during that time they refused to divulge details except in a cryptic or general way so that rumours cannot be traced back to them.

Security and the 'leaks plugging' are probably more stringent recently considering the lack of rumours.
A few dozen? There are that many who are members on here. :D
Everyone who works in the studio or who walks through the studio knows what's going on. Finished stuff is just sitting around ... for months waiting for its slot. Even before its finished a sprue that has come back from the test print run will be sitting on a sculptors desk for them to check ... that's about a year before the finished minis will see the light of day. Even before that the sculpts in progress will not be hidden when they nip out for a pie.

I understand access to the studio was restricted a bit more with the Hobbit stuff going on but we are still talking about a boat load of people.

I suspect about the same number of people are talking about the same amount of stuff to roughly the same number of people as they always were ... what has changed is the posting habits of those people.

Harry
20-09-2013, 12:10
I'm not sure why exactly a coming Warhammer Armies book created such a ruckus. Don't we already all have Warhammer Armies books? Did we/you/someone infer from that it would contain several armies, or was that an additional info? Because the former would be a huge leap in logic, no?It is possible I am a rabble rouser and ruckus causer. (Ruckus ... theres a word we don't use often enough. :D) I may have implied (said flat out) that this will be quite a big thing ... and that it will contain several armies. :shifty:

Lord Solar Plexus
20-09-2013, 12:31
Yeah, ruckus is a good word. Not as good as perusing Parisians but it'll do. ;)

pjklan
20-09-2013, 13:26
It is possible I am a rabble rouser and ruckus causer. (Ruckus ... theres a word we don't use often enough. :D) I may have implied (said flat out) that this will be quite a big thing ... and that it will contain several armies. :shifty:
nice to see you again in this forum, H.
in your opinion, how many races are we going to see until the end of the year?
two (one fantasy, one 40k) or three?
and, my imperial guard will have a big Mazinga-style contraption like tau and eldar did?

Ramius4
20-09-2013, 13:38
Welcome back to the rumour mill Harry, even if it's just a visit :)


A few dozen? There are that many who are members on here. :D
Everyone who works in the studio or who walks through the studio knows what's going on. Finished stuff is just sitting around ... for months waiting for its slot. Even before its finished a sprue that has come back from the test print run will be sitting on a sculptors desk for them to check ... that's about a year before the finished minis will see the light of day. Even before that the sculpts in progress will not be hidden when they nip out for a pie.

This. It always gives me a laugh when I see someone mention a 'rumour' about a release being 'pushed back' or 'delayed' because someone dropped all the molds, or someone's dog at their homework, etc. As if a large company that does global-scale releases doesn't have organizational foresight and waits until the last possible minute to make decisions about releases.

Morathi's Darkest Sin
20-09-2013, 13:50
It is possible I am a rabble rouser and ruckus causer. (Ruckus ... theres a word we don't use often enough. :D) I may have implied (said flat out) that this will be quite a big thing ... and that it will contain several armies. :shifty:

I'm hoping your info is spot on the money just because I like where that takes Warhammer. Hell, I'm taking a chance that you are correct with an Empire army, that has Dwarf, Wood Elf and High Elf elements already. Well I'll have some nice things to paint if its all wrong I suppose. :D

jtrowell
20-09-2013, 15:01
A few dozen? There are that many who are members on here. :D
Everyone who works in the studio or who walks through the studio knows what's going on. Finished stuff is just sitting around ... for months waiting for its slot. Even before its finished a sprue that has come back from the test print run will be sitting on a sculptors desk for them to check ... that's about a year before the finished minis will see the light of day. Even before that the sculpts in progress will not be hidden when they nip out for a pie.

(...)

Are you trying to hint that the true identity of Harry the Pie-eman is as one of the scultors working for GW ? :angel:

Joke aside, it's good to see you again here, even if if just a passing visit.

Greyshadow
21-09-2013, 06:19
Yep, enjoy reading the pie mans posts. He always comes across as a thoroughly nice chap. Nice to see you back here Mr H.

Harry
21-09-2013, 07:48
nice to see you again in this forum, H.
in your opinion, how many races are we going to see until the end of the year?
two (one fantasy, one 40k) or three?
and, my imperial guard will have a big Mazinga-style contraption like tau and eldar did?To answer that I would need to have been keeping up with 40K releases ... and I have not. What was the last 40K release? Did we get more Space Marines yet? :D
As far as fantasy goes ... I am expecting one more ... Dark Elves.


I'm hoping your info is spot on the money just because I like where that takes Warhammer. Hell, I'm taking a chance that you are correct with an Empire army, that has Dwarf, Wood Elf and High Elf elements already. Well I'll have some nice things to paint if its all wrong I suppose. :DI'm honestly not sure where my money is. I try to imagine one book like warhammer armies for third edition ... then I look at my pile of hardback, or even the old soft back army books. It's not going to work. Back in second edition they only had about 10 armies and they could fit the army list on a few pages. Now we have a few more and they are all fully fleshed out armies that fill a book on their own. Either they will have to leave a lot of stuff out and just include army lists and a bit of bestiary to explain special rules OR they will need to be more than one book. If they do fit the stuff they need in one book where are they going to put the rest of the rich history, background, bestiary, hobby section, etc, etc. I can't see them leaving all that behind. (Which means it may be exactly as described in the first post that Warhammer armies is one thing but full army books remain).
When I heard about this it was still all up in the air.... I have no idea where the dust settled ... so just be sure that you are taking a chance.
However, like you I have several mixed armies. I have always collected and painted armies with mixed races, allies and mercenaries in mind but then I was around for 2nd and 3rd edition and that was just how it was. So your comment about 'where that takes Warhammer' made me smile ... as if it is what I hope it is ... it takes it right back where we started when Rick Priestley, Richard Halliwell and Bryan Ansell first wrote Ravening Hordes 25 years ago! :D

(But if playing that army rings your bell you can always head over to the "Oldhammer forum").


Are you trying to hint that the true identity of Harry the Pie-eman is as one of the scultors working for GW ? :angel:LOL No, still just a teacher. :D


Yep, enjoy reading the pie mans posts. He always comes across as a thoroughly nice chap. Nice to see you back here Mr H.Well ... thank you very much.

Ramius4
21-09-2013, 08:46
Yep, enjoy reading the pie mans posts. He always comes across as a thoroughly nice chap. Nice to see you back here Mr H.

Agreed. I sent him some old masts for Man o' War ships a few years ago when he asked if anyone had any in his plog (check out his plog, it's epic!). Just from emailing back and forth a bit, I can tell you he is a genuinely nice guy. I'll have to search your plog Harry and see if you managed to paint any of those old ships yet.

I've been playing warhammer since 4th ed now, and I would love to see some sort of allies rules return. A lot of people will abuse it, but I prefer some fluff behind my alliances.

Harry
21-09-2013, 10:08
Agreed. I sent him some old masts for Man o' War ships a few years ago when he asked if anyone had any in his plog (check out his plog, it's epic!). Just from emailing back and forth a bit, I can tell you he is a genuinely nice guy. I'll have to search your plog Harry and see if you managed to paint any of those old ships yet.

I've been playing warhammer since 4th ed now, and I would love to see some sort of allies rules return. A lot of people will abuse it, but I prefer some fluff behind my alliances.

I have just used those very masts to repair my Bretonnian fleet. :D I just have to glue fresh sails back on and will get the pictures up. Thank you so much for those.

It's funny you should say that but when they were first written the army lists, allies lists were written to stop abuse. Back then we just used to play with whatever minis we threw on the table ... basically good guys and bad guys. But as a funny bit of writing in the intro to the first Ravening Hordes illustrates you could easily face a 'Skaven army' hidden behind some much tougher troops. They were written so that a Skaven army even played with allies or mercenaries retained its flavour as a Skaven army. (but you could still play you favourite Orc or Chaos units if you wanted to or needed to to make up the points. (So you didn't need to have 5,000 points of every army you liked some of the models for to be able to use them. :D)

pjklan
21-09-2013, 12:39
To answer that I would need to have been keeping up with 40K releases ... and I have not. What was the last 40K release? Did we get more Space Marines yet? :D


yes , we did.... ONCE AGAIN :rolleyes:.
last year you told me all my fantasy armies (empire, chaos warriors and high elves) would be updated in short time. AND THEY WERE.

now i'm asking you: my 40k armies are: dark angels, chaos marines (both already updated), orks and imperial guard.
do you think i can wait for them to be updated in the next future?
thank you.

Urgat
21-09-2013, 17:42
He just said he doesn't follow 40K, you know.

Bigman
22-09-2013, 00:11
Thanks for the rumour up load Harry. You have been missed.

I was always quizzical at best about the change to a faction based army book. The pros for GW seemed very close in value to the cons.

I do hope that they flesh out allies more because Id like to see that. On the flip side I do still want individual army books.

Why
22-09-2013, 01:05
Thank you for saving this thread Harry:)

Harry
22-09-2013, 07:30
yes , we did.... ONCE AGAIN :rolleyes:.
last year you told me all my fantasy armies (empire, chaos warriors and high elves) would be updated in short time. AND THEY WERE.It's almost as if I knew what was going to happen in the coming year. :D


now i'm asking you: my 40k armies are: dark angels, chaos marines (both already updated), orks and imperial guard.
do you think i can wait for them to be updated in the next future?
thank you.Yes.


He just said he doesn't follow 40K, you know.Not deliberately.


Thanks for the rumour up load Harry. You have been missed.

I was always quizzical at best about the change to a faction based army book. The pros for GW seemed very close in value to the cons.

I do hope that they flesh out allies more because Id like to see that. On the flip side I do still want individual army books.I am not sure I have added any new information or even clarified the OP ... just re-stating what I said 10 months ago. The funny thing is this is not even the biggest change I heard about. (It's just what came up on the thread).
Again I don't know the details as I heard this a while ago and I suspect it was still all up in the air and I don't know where it all came down again ... but ... I did hear that the timeline was going to move forward. Not just a few years either but a few hundred of years. I didn't mention this at the time because they had only just released Karl Franz. But unless the Empire's magic users have come up with some clever way of prolonging life he along with every other special character would be dead and gone. But that is not all that would change ... technologies would move on. What technological advances would the skaven have come up with in another few hundred years? The empire already have robotic horses for crying out loud ... (reminds me ... I must get on and paint that Clockwork Dragon.:D) The Dwarves have flying machines now .... presumably they will be entering the space race? (No ... I am not predicting the return of squats to 40K). I am just saying things could change a good bit. Empires could rise and fall. Cataclysm could have happened, comets could have returned, civilisations could be wiped off the map. The balance of power could certainly have changed.

My sense of it was they were planning to take the opportunity to reset the clock and shake things up a bit.
(and that's just the background!!! :eek:)

Lets just say when 9th edition comes ... Warhammer Armies will not be the only, or the biggest topic of conversation.


Thank you for saving this thread Harry:)
I may have just torpedoed it. :shifty:

Mike3791
22-09-2013, 07:47
Lets just say when 9th edition comes ... Warhammer Armies will not be the only, or the biggest topic of conversation.


I may have just torpedoed it. :shifty:

Wow that is definitely a shot in the arm for Fantasy. 40k has allies so I'm not surprised fantasy would get them too, but to move the timeline forward would fundamentally change the game.

Kayosiv
22-09-2013, 07:51
Dang Harry. The Background has not only been static, but actually moving backwards since I started playing the game, as the Storm of Chaos is "about to happen" in most of the armybooks and I remember it happening right when I started the hobby.

Skipping ahead 200 years seems pretty dang extreme. Heck, 20 years could make for some interesting storytelling.

Glimfeather
22-09-2013, 08:09
Lets just say when 9th edition comes ... Warhammer Armies will not be the only, or the biggest topic of conversation.


I may have just torpedoed it. :shifty:

Well, there you go. Warhammer Navies as the next big thing in the WHFB universe.

Bigman
22-09-2013, 08:35
It's almost as if I knew what was going to happen in the coming year. :D

Yes.

Not deliberately.

I am not sure I have added any new information or even clarified the OP ... just re-stating what I said 10 months ago. The funny thing is the even not even the biggest change I heard about. (It's just what came up on the thread).
Again I don't know the details as I heard this a while ago and I suspect it was still all up in the air and I don't know where it all came down again ... but ... I did hear that the timeline was going to move forward. Not just a few years either but a few hundred of years. I didn't mention this at the time because they had only just released Karl Franz. But unless the Empire's magic users have come up with some clever way of prolonging life he along with every other special character would be dead and gone. But that is not all that would change ... technologies would move on. What technological advances would the skaven have come up with in another few hundred years? The empire already have robotic horses for crying out loud ... (reminds me ... I must get on and paint that Clockwork Dragon.:D) The Dwarves have flying machines now .... presumably they will be entering the space race? (No ... I am not predicting the return of squats to 40K). I am just saying things could change a good bit. Empires could rise and fall. Cataclysm could have happened, comets could have returned, civilisations could be wiped off the map. The balance of power could certainly have changed.

My sense of it was they were planning to take the opportunity to reset the clock and shake things up a bit.
(and that's just the background!!! :eek:)

Lets just say when 9th edition comes ... Warhammer Armies will not be the only, or the biggest topic of conversation.


I may have just torpedoed it. :shifty:

You always know how to write an answer that both alleviates any concerns and then gives me new ones!

Morkash
22-09-2013, 09:03
Wow, sounds like really exciting times are ahead. I'm looking forward to new background, as you said, Harry, the possibilities are endless! :)

Regarding combined armybooks: It is 40k, sure, but maybe the new Space Marines Codex gives a rough idea. It is much more detailed and exhaustive (as in: covering more content) than earlier army books and codices so if they expand on this idea I could see a book covering multiple armies definitely working out. By Nurgle, imagine the grandeur of a new Warhammer Armies: The Realms of Chaos covering Daemons, Warriors of Chaos and Beastmen!

dalezzz
22-09-2013, 09:45
Empires falling ehh? Civilisations destroyed? So long brets and wood elves :(

Malagor
22-09-2013, 09:49
People read what he said. :p
He didn't say that they will move the story forward or they will remove the army books(which would be very stupid of GW), only that it is what he heard some time ago and it was nothing that was settled.
So don't start selling your armies just yet.

But if it is true(probably not, this is GW we are talking about here, in some of the codexes in 40k they even moved the timelines backwards a bit) it might fit with a rumour I heard a few months ago stating that Skaven will be the first 9e book and Flyer rules ala 40k will be added to 9e.

MiyamatoMusashi
22-09-2013, 09:50
Thinking of changing my username to Cassandra.

dalezzz
22-09-2013, 10:05
Back in time maybe? Could have potential , somewhere around the time of the 3 emperors and the first big chaos incursion could be fun. Not sure if every faction got involved around this time though. Also mordheim was still around!

Avian
22-09-2013, 10:09
Really, heaps of special characters are from long-lived races, are immortal or already dead to begin with. Moving the timeline forward a couple of hundred years would only really kill off the Empire and Bretonnian ones. :D

McBaine
22-09-2013, 10:54
Really, heaps of special characters are from long-lived races, are immortal or already dead to begin with. Moving the timeline forward a couple of hundred years would only really kill off the Empire and Bretonnian ones.

Not the Bretonnian ones who are in the book right now^^ The Fey Enchantress is a long living Wood Elf, Louen Leoncour is 90 years old and still in his prime (drinking from the grail tends to do this, one of the original Grail Companions lived over 200 years) and the Green Knight is immortal anyway. There would be some non-grail-knight and peasant characters, but as you said, the books are full of already dead special chars. I wouldn't worry about that at all.

Now, the Warhammer Armies book with an updated list and overview for the armies is much desired on my part. It just sucks to wait over a decade and more than 2 editions without an army book. It depends of course, how many pages they can dedicate to every army, but all in all I like the idea.

Fear Ghoul
22-09-2013, 11:21
Moving the background forward would certainly be one way to destroy the setting they have spent about 30 years building. They can change the rules and publications all they want, but background is the reason many of us are into Fantasy, and if they meddle with that then they heavily risk many quitting.

dalezzz
22-09-2013, 11:35
So it's basically a scheme to kill Karl franz!

Bigman
22-09-2013, 12:29
So it's basically a scheme to kill Karl franz!

How else would you kill him? Guy fights like a boss.

Horace35
22-09-2013, 13:26
Moving the background forward would certainly be one way to destroy the setting they have spent about 30 years building. They can change the rules and publications all they want, but background is the reason many of us are into Fantasy, and if they meddle with that then they heavily risk many quitting.

Why would it destroy the setting? It would be the same setting but different fluff events would have taken place. eg the empire has been invaded and is fighting a fierce war on several fronts.

Surely that would provide some nice narrative to base your battles in? Then each edition would perhaps progress the timeline further.

Everyone is always so scared of change, I don't understand it.

Black_Omega
22-09-2013, 14:55
Again I don't know the details as I heard this a while ago and I suspect it was still all up in the air and I don't know where it all came down again ... but ... I did hear that the timeline was going to move forward. Not just a few years either but a few hundred of years. I didn't mention this at the time because they had only just released Karl Franz. But unless the Empire's magic users have come up with some clever way of prolonging life he along with every other special character would be dead and gone. But that is not all that would change ... technologies would move on. What technological advances would the skaven have come up with in another few hundred years? The empire already have robotic horses for crying out loud ... (reminds me ... I must get on and paint that Clockwork Dragon.:D) The Dwarves have flying machines now .... presumably they will be entering the space race? (No ... I am not predicting the return of squats to 40K). I am just saying things could change a good bit. Empires could rise and fall. Cataclysm could have happened, comets could have returned, civilisations could be wiped off the map. The balance of power could certainly have changed.

My sense of it was they were planning to take the opportunity to reset the clock and shake things up a bit.
(and that's just the background!!! :eek:)

For the first time in a very long time I'm excited to see what happens with WFB.

Captain Marius
22-09-2013, 16:22
I really can't see the point of extending the timeline forward, I think the strength of WFB is in the detail of the historical background it already has. I'd be far more interested in seeing supplements/campaign books detailing the armies of great wars from the background, with characters, units and armylists specific to those times. The Sundering, War of the Beard, Vampire Wars, Great War Against Chaos, even Storm of Chaos (if they left it open-ended...), these are rich resources that aren't being tapped into nearly enough.

nosebiter
22-09-2013, 16:39
I really can't see the point of extending the timeline forward, I think the strength of WFB is in the detail of the historical background it already has. I'd be far more interested in seeing supplements/campaign books detailing the armies of great wars from the background, with characters, units and armylists specific to those times. The Sundering, War of the Beard, Vampire Wars, Great War Against Chaos, even Storm of Chaos (if they left it open-ended...), these are rich resources that aren't being tapped into nearly enough.


Yeah, but that would mean more crunch the rulesmonkeys at GW need to balance. Fat chance of that happening ;-)

Dr. Who
22-09-2013, 17:11
Again I don't know the details as I heard this a while ago and I suspect it was still all up in the air and I don't know where it all came down again ... but ... I did hear that the timeline was going to move forward. Not just a few years either but a few hundred of years. I didn't mention this at the time because they had only just released Karl Franz. But unless the Empire's magic users have come up with some clever way of prolonging life he along with every other special character would be dead and gone. But that is not all that would change ... technologies would move on. What technological advances would the skaven have come up with in another few hundred years? The empire already have robotic horses for crying out loud ... (reminds me ... I must get on and paint that Clockwork Dragon.:D) The Dwarves have flying machines now .... presumably they will be entering the space race? (No ... I am not predicting the return of squats to 40K). I am just saying things could change a good bit. Empires could rise and fall. Cataclysm could have happened, comets could have returned, civilisations could be wiped off the map. The balance of power could certainly have changed.

My sense of it was they were planning to take the opportunity to reset the clock and shake things up a bit.
(and that's just the background!!! :eek:)

Lets just say when 9th edition comes ... Warhammer Armies will not be the only, or the biggest topic of conversation.


I may have just torpedoed it. :shifty:

Oh dear. Torpedoed? Once it gets through the rumour-reverb-speculation-wishlisting-guessing-mill that is the internet, it will seem like a 20 megaton nuke!

From your description, it seems like GW saw the success of Steampunk settings and thought "we got to get on this bandwagon too; now how do we do this. Answer: Steampunk Warhammer!"

My thought: Too many changes for its own good and a few years too late to the party. Again. And hands off my Bretonnians, you evil GW:D!

- Dr.

Daigar
22-09-2013, 17:20
For some reason I'm afraid Dwarfs will get squatted (dwarfed?), since all GW has done in recent army books is make them lose more and more holds.

Ender Shadowkin
22-09-2013, 17:48
So it's basically a scheme to kill Karl franz!

Or give him the 40k emperor treatment, have him entombed in some hermetically sealed tomb or steam punk power suit, awakened only when needed. . .

Heck they could even have the empire explode in a rebellion and play out those themes.

Sounds like a great way to add new stories, units, characters, black library books etc.

Just because time advances, dosn't mean tech does, things could even regress. Dark ages anyone?

Mike3791
22-09-2013, 18:21
Maybe they'll just move the timeline forward to the 41st millennium :D

Ludaman
22-09-2013, 18:39
It could give them a great excuse to combine armies: The old world was overcome by the forces of Chaos, now ragtag bands of men from all backgrounds and wood elves must band together to take back their land! Now with monocles and bionic-steam parts! :) all kidding aside, I'm just really hoping Brets get an 8th edition release, having a book before 9th hits would give me a lot more hope that they'll still be an army after the edition change.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - now Free (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)

Harry
22-09-2013, 18:59
Wow that is definitely a shot in the arm for Fantasy. 40k has allies so I'm not surprised fantasy would get them too, but to move the timeline forward would fundamentally change the game.Only if technology advances too much.


Dang Harry. The Background has not only been static, but actually moving backwards since I started playing the game, as the Storm of Chaos is "about to happen" in most of the armybooks and I remember it happening right when I started the hobby.

Skipping ahead 200 years seems pretty dang extreme. Heck, 20 years could make for some interesting storytelling.Never understood why The storm in a tea cup was squatted .... I thought it was quite good ... except for the ending. :D
May be more than 200 years ...


Well, there you go. Warhammer Navies as the next big thing in the WHFB universe.I would like that ... i want them to do some warhammer boats now they can make these big kits. But I have not heard that sadly.


You always know how to write an answer that both alleviates any concerns and then gives me new ones!I thank you. :D


Empires falling ehh? Civilisations destroyed? So long brets and wood elves :(Who knows ... also new races/armies could appear!


... it might fit with a rumour I heard a few months ago stating that Skaven will be the first 9e book and Flyer rules ala 40k will be added to 9e.Yup. I heard that too somewhere. Someone I was talking too mentioned Skaven in flying machines.


Thinking of changing my username to Cassandra.:D I don't get the reference to cassandra but I do remember you posting this months ago and it being largely ignored.


Really, heaps of special characters are from long-lived races, are immortal or already dead to begin with. Moving the timeline forward a couple of hundred years would only really kill off the Empire and Bretonnian ones. :DGood point ... but what if they moved it further forward not many live 500 years if they move it that far.


Moving the background forward would certainly be one way to destroy the setting they have spent about 30 years building. They can change the rules and publications all they want, but background is the reason many of us are into Fantasy, and if they meddle with that then they heavily risk many quitting.Why will it destroy anything? The background will still be there. Folks can play games set anywhere in the oldhammer world set in any period already ...


Why would it destroy the setting? It would be the same setting but different fluff events would have taken place. eg the empire has been invaded and is fighting a fierce war on several fronts.

Surely that would provide some nice narrative to base your battles in? Then each edition would perhaps progress the timeline further.

Everyone is always so scared of change, I don't understand it.I is not change people don't iike ... it is badly managed change. :D


For the first time in a very long time I'm excited to see what happens with WFB.Me too. It will be nice to know what happens next.


I really can't see the point of extending the timeline forward, I think the strength of WFB is in the detail of the historical background it already has. I'd be far more interested in seeing supplements/campaign books detailing the armies of great wars from the background, with characters, units and armylists specific to those times. The Sundering, War of the Beard, Vampire Wars, Great War Against Chaos, even Storm of Chaos (if they left it open-ended...), these are rich resources that aren't being tapped into nearly enough.You can't live in the past. :D Hobbiests have always been able to ... and will continue to be able to flesh out the details of these events based on the information we have been provided with and play battles set in those times ... but what is less easy to do is develop narrative and scenarios based on an unwritten future.


Oh dear. Torpedoed? Once it gets through the rumour-reverb-speculation-wishlisting-guessing-mill that is the internet, it will seem like a 20 megaton nuke!

From your description, it seems like GW saw the success of Steampunk settings and thought "we got to get on this bandwagon too; now how do we do this. Answer: Steampunk Warhammer!"
Or they just looked at their own games and the big difference in 40K and Fantasy sales and asked themselves what they could do to sell more fantasy stuff. Tanks and power armour all around then. :D

Harry
22-09-2013, 19:05
For some reason I'm afraid Dwarfs will get squatted (dwarfed?), since all GW has done in recent army books is make them lose more and more holds.No not squatted ... but they do get tanks and power armour. :D


Or give him the 40k emperor treatment, have him entombed in some hermetically sealed tomb or steam punk power suit, awakened only when needed. . .

Heck they could even have the empire explode in a rebellion and play out those themes.

Sounds like a great way to add new stories, units, characters, black library books etc.

Just because time advances, dosn't mean tech does, things could even regress. Dark ages anyone?Good point. Hadn't thought of that.
But certainly either way lots of new stuff, characters, events, battles, etc to write about.


Maybe they'll just move the timeline forward to the 41st millennium :DSee above. :D


It could give them a great excuse to combine armies: The old world was overcome by the forces of Chaos, now ragtag bands of men from all backgrounds and wood elves must band together to take back their land! Now your talking.
You call that Grim Dark ... THIS is Grim Dark.
Dark Future meets warhammer.... 'Darkhammer'.
BRING IT ON! :D

Mike3791
22-09-2013, 19:13
Harry, when do you think the new fantasy edition is set to be released? 2014 or 2015?

Azazyll
22-09-2013, 19:55
Done well, changing the setting by moving the timeline forward could be the shot in the arm Fantasy needs (some of us have been with it for decades and are getting a little bored). Done poorly (*cough*Forgotten Realms*cough*4th ed*cough*) it could kill the setting.

A big gamble, and GW has not been known for gambles recently. I'd be interested, at least. And the very fact that many well-known characters could still be around is part of what would make it interesting - how would they be changed by the intervening time?

(Also, the Fey Enchantress has never been confirmed to be a Wood Elf, and I for one think that's a stupidly simple way to explain what right now is a very interesting mystery)

Mike3791
22-09-2013, 20:19
I think GW doesn't have anything to lose by changing the setting, the current sales aren't bringing in new blood and the existing vets aren't enough to sustain the system. Definitely a very interesting topic

Azazyll
22-09-2013, 20:44
I think GW doesn't have anything to lose by changing the setting, the current sales aren't bringing in new blood and the existing vets aren't enough to sustain the system. Definitely a very interesting topic

We really have no idea if this is true other than anecdotally. They spend just as much money on WHF as they do on 40K - or at least nearly as much. Systems alternate month by month, even the major summer release varies system year to year, as it has for decades without change. That certainly doesn't indicate to me that fantasy is making less money than 40k. Don't you think they would have done something about it sooner if that were the case? Certainly they didn't have to match 40k's increased rate of army releases, and yet they chose to do so. That certainly argues in favor of some kind of parity in economic value, or why would they waste resources on a less successful system that could be used for a proven money maker?

The evidence for "Fantasy is dying" just isn't backed up by solid evidence, at least that I have seen. What we have is a lot of hearsay.

Bigman
22-09-2013, 21:04
Anecdotal yes, but from lots of sources.

Fantasy doesn't sell. Go down on a weekend. See what the kids play. It's 40K all the way. Every kid. Some if the older players (16-19) are there with fantasy. Game nights it's either older vets playing each other or playing young guys for two reasons.

1.) to help them be better
2.) to crush them and feel superior

Playing at a few different gaming clubs, yes there is a fantasy following in most, but most of the guys are middle aged who join up for fantasy. Very few young guys coming through.

GW needs to rock the boat. As long as it isn't completely ridiculous, I'll play.

Marked_by_chaos
22-09-2013, 21:06
I find the rumours interesting and wait with baited breath.

If true this could go either way. It reminds me of the move from space marine to epic 40,000 ... And we know how that worked out.

Even if it is a good reboot the changes may be so profound that they really enrage a lot of existing players. On the other hand perhaps sales have been so disappointing that they are prepared to take the risk.

Mike3791
22-09-2013, 21:13
With Harry hinting skaven flying machines and dwarven tanks & power armor, it sounds like fantasy is heading into steampunk territory. I think he hints at a name change too, Darkhammer.

Marked_by_chaos
22-09-2013, 21:13
Anecdotal yes, but from lots of sources.

Fantasy doesn't sell. Go down on a weekend. See what the kids play. It's 40K all the way. Every kid. Some if the older players (16-19) are there with fantasy.

I would not be surprised if warhammer sales are weak. However, you can read too much into store attendees. It seems that warhammer traditionally appealed more to an older dynamic, who are unlikely to play in store.

Bigman
22-09-2013, 21:42
But without new players, the store point sales are not great. Yes we buy online, but not in bulk.

The stores set up new players now in store. They coax them through an entire 1500-2000 point army.

They want to offer a fantasy game that will attract the younger player, so they can increase sales, regenerate the player base so to speak.

It is sad they don't see us a potential big buyers, but adults will always shop around for best discount or use ebay. Young store first timers don't know that.

I agree with your fantasy point about its appeal but that's the key reason GW wants to make some changes. They want to alter its appeal, make it broader.

To do so they need to shake things up.

I love 8th, but I'll adopt a wait and see attitude to 9th.

Hawkkf
22-09-2013, 21:59
I am expecting the core mechanics to shift closer to that of 40k. I have never played warma-hordes, but the ability to intermix the two games must have a good effect on sales which GW couldnt miss. They obviously couldnt change things overnight, but over 2-4 editions of Fantasy and 40K it would be possible. Several things would have to happen first. Magic and Psychic powers wold have to be put on equal footing. Both are currently randomly generated similarly, so a change in wizards to work like pyskers or vice versa would put them on par. Swords, horses, and dragons vs power armour, vehicles, and planes. This would be the hardest to do, but a jump in fantasy by 500 years could have everyone using ensorcelled or steampunk weapons and equipment. A warmahordes player could enlighten me on how they handle that issue. Square formations vs round skirmishers. I believe that fantasy will have to break up the unit sizes in fantasy anyway as a block of 40 for one unit costs as much as 4 units in 40K, but that 40k would have to add formation rules. We have seen this experimented with in the apocalypse with the armoured spearhead formations. Fantasy being in loose formation with bonuses based on formations could be a decent mechanic. In any case bringing the core rules closer back together allows for people to jump between the two easier instead of having the huge differences we have now that makes them two completely different games.

P.S. If they do try to make the games compatible, then we would finally be able to solves the age old question: Who would win Fantasy vs 40k in a game!

Mike3791
22-09-2013, 22:12
I doubt GW would ever combine the two, more likely less army book restrictions(allies) and more unit types (steampunk). However the concept of new races and a post-cataclysmic era is also very interesting, Harry dropped a lot of new info.. just need to know when is the eta for 9th ed.

Bigman
22-09-2013, 22:14
Look at the War of the ring mechanic for how to use a round base in a regiment style.

Avian
22-09-2013, 22:40
I still think that characters dying of old age makes no sense, given that 8 of 15 armies either CAN'T die of old age, or are extremely unlikely to do so. ;)

Harry
22-09-2013, 22:56
We really have no idea if this is true other than anecdotally. They spend just as much money on WHF as they do on 40K - or at least nearly as much. Systems alternate month by month, even the major summer release varies system year to year, as it has for decades without change. That certainly doesn't indicate to me that fantasy is making less money than 40k. Don't you think they would have done something about it sooner if that were the case? Certainly they didn't have to match 40k's increased rate of army releases, and yet they chose to do so. That certainly argues in favor of some kind of parity in economic value, or why would they waste resources on a less successful system that could be used for a proven money maker?

The evidence for "Fantasy is dying" just isn't backed up by solid evidence, at least that I have seen. What we have is a lot of hearsay.I can't back it up with anything but I my understanding is the systems are not even close. It makes a profit but nothing like 40K


With Harry hinting skaven flying machines and dwarven tanks & power armor, it sounds like fantasy is heading into steampunk territory. I think he hints at a name change too, Darkhammer.Woah there ... I was just saying I heard them mentioned not that it was happening. The dwarves don't have tanks and power armour they have the big rumoured warmachine thingamy whatsit and some very substantial armour on some of the new stuff. I was just cracking on. Don't read too much into every word. Darkhammer was just a line. Not a hint at a name change ... you know like we had herohammer, etc ...


I doubt GW would ever combine the two, more likely less army book restrictions(allies) and more unit types (steampunk). However the concept of new races and a post-cataclysmic era is also very interesting, Harry dropped a lot of new info.. just need to know when is the eta for 9th ed.That concept is the result of a thought process based on some tiny amounts of info. I have not actually dropped very much new info at all... just been talking about it a bit.
I did say in a post a couple of pages back I thought it was 2014 Hastings was pretty sure it was 2015. Hastings is usually right and I am often wrong.
Don't be taking any of my wild speculation as facts. I heard this months and months ago and if hastings is correct nothing will be finalised for many, many months yet.

Mike3791
22-09-2013, 23:03
I still think that characters dying of old age makes no sense, given that 8 of 15 armies either CAN'T die of old age, or are extremely unlikely to do so. ;)

8 of 15 is pretty generous, I only count Empire and Bretonnia.. but maybe that's the point. A post-cataclysmic era marked by the death of Karl Franz.. the Empire collapses and Malikieth sits on the Phoneix throne.

Ramius4
22-09-2013, 23:12
8 of 15 is pretty generous, I only count Empire and Bretonnia.. but maybe that's the point. A post-cataclysmic era marked by the death of Karl Franz.. the Empire collapses and Malikieth sits on the Phoneix throne.

Dwarfs, Beastmen, Orcs, Ogres, Lizardmen, and Skaven are not immortal either. And really, are any of the elves?

Mike3791
22-09-2013, 23:19
I just can't picture great grandpa Ogre on his deathbed, regreting burning down all those villages when he was a young lad.

Malagor
23-09-2013, 00:30
And his sons standing by his deathbed with knife and fork, getting ready to feast on him :P

Azazyll
23-09-2013, 01:05
Older players are also willing to pay more and collect larger and more armies. It's great to get a bunch of twelve-year-olds to buy a small army, but getting a vet to buy one huge army after another is probably just as good, if not better.

I'm not saying it's not true, but if it is true, then GW are insane (from a business perspective) for devoting the same amount of attention (or at least close) to both systems for this long. But without numbers from GW, we can't know. Not everyone plays in the stores, as has been said; I for one haven't since I was twelve myself.

Now checking the sign up for tables at Games Day might work, actually. Interesting thought experiment.

Totenjager
23-09-2013, 01:06
We've heard for years and many Black Library books that elves are a dying race. Ulthuan is being overrun by human traders and their hangers on, Dark Elves are busily killing off each other as well as High Elves, Woodies are isolated with no hope for fresh blood. Sounds like 3 of the almost immortal races aren't so immortal.

Azazyll
23-09-2013, 01:12
Any Elf (High, Dark or Wood), Dwarf, Undead (Vampire or Mummy), minions of Chaos of any variety (Daemon of course but also Warriors and evens Beasts) could easily still be around in two hundred or even five hundred years (we don't have a firm grasp on dwarf age limits but it's clearly pretty long). Humans from Bretonnia or the Empire are out, except that magic could easily be hand-waved for at least half the characters (either extending life or suspending animation) - and of course most of those characters could get vamped if it came right down to it. We have no indications of how long Orcs and Goblins can live if not actively killed, same with Ogres (although they presumably have some natural lifespan like humans, and so could benefit from the same kind of hand-waving magic explanations). Skaven are short lived but have access to some pretty intense magical and mechanical means of extending life. Saurus, Slann and Kroxigor are all basically ageless, and similar magic-hand-waving could work for most of the skinks (although Tetto'eko isn't looking spry).


We've heard for years and many Black Library books that elves are a dying race. Ulthuan is being overrun by human traders and their hangers on, Dark Elves are busily killing off each other as well as High Elves, Woodies are isolated with no hope for fresh blood. Sounds like 3 of the almost immortal races aren't so immortal.

All that is on a civilizational level. On an individual level elves age as the plot dictates - Morathi is over six thousand years old, while Hellbron is ancient but withered. Who knows what's going on with that? It's a knockoff of Tolkien in most respects, and his elves couldn't die of age but could grow weary of life and will themselves to die.

Mike3791
23-09-2013, 01:38
Orcs are fungi, and fungi can live either very short or very long timespans.

Either way I'd like to see a post Karl Franz era. It sounds like a similar theme to World of Warcraft: Cataclysm expansion, with old continents and civilizations destroyed and new ones emerge. Maybe Telis will turn most of the High Elves into mermaids, to save them from when Malikeith finally takes Uthulan ;)

Fear Ghoul
23-09-2013, 02:57
Why would it destroy the setting? It would be the same setting but different fluff events would have taken place. eg the empire has been invaded and is fighting a fierce war on several fronts.

Surely that would provide some nice narrative to base your battles in? Then each edition would perhaps progress the timeline further.

Everyone is always so scared of change, I don't understand it.

We already have some nice narratives to base our battles on. More of the same does not equal better.

More to the point, any changes made have to either present real threats to major factions such as their destruction (imagine the whine threads then) or be so watered down or contrived as to be meaningless. For what happens when you get promised some of the former and get delivered some of the latter see Storm of Chaos. Fantasy isn't an ongoing story, it is a setting depicting the fall of civilization and the end of the world. The final Everchosen has been crowned, the Vortex is weakening beyond repair, and the last war against Chaos is about to begin. The unwitting pawns and creations of the Dark Gods, the serried ranks of Undead, Skaven, and Dark Elves, sap the strength of those who might postpone the inevitable, thus hastening their own doom. Having spent over 20 years building up to the moment when the clock strikes midnight, why would it ever be a good idea to advance that in a wargame setting? Our own imagination will always provide a much more interesting narrative for the coming age than can be written by any GW author with his hands tied by the need to make the plot developments seem important but also not make any real drastic changes. Again, See Storm of Chaos. I am highly wary of any rumours pertaining to the advancement of timelines, because it seems like such a horrific idea in theory and has been borne out in practice, and the consequences for screwing it up seem to far outweight any potential gain. People say that they get bored of the same background every edition, but I honestly can't remember anybody saying the same thing of LOTR, or Conan the Cimmerian.

Azazyll
23-09-2013, 03:28
We already have some nice narratives to base our battles on. More of the same does not equal better.

More to the point, any changes made have to either present real threats to major factions such as their destruction (imagine the whine threads then) or be so watered down or contrived as to be meaningless. For what happens when you get promised some of the former and get delivered some of the latter see Storm of Chaos. Fantasy isn't an ongoing story, it is a setting depicting the fall of civilization and the end of the world. The final Everchosen has been crowned, the Vortex is weakening beyond repair, and the last war against Chaos is about to begin. The unwitting pawns and creations of the Dark Gods, the serried ranks of Undead, Skaven, and Dark Elves, sap the strength of those who might postpone the inevitable, thus hastening their own doom. Having spent over 20 years building up to the moment when the clock strikes midnight, why would it ever be a good idea to advance that in a wargame setting? Our own imagination will always provide a much more interesting narrative for the coming age than can be written by any GW author with his hands tied by the need to make the plot developments seem important but also not make any real drastic changes. Again, See Storm of Chaos. I am highly wary of any rumours pertaining to the advancement of timelines, because it seems like such a horrific idea in theory and has been borne out in practice, and the consequences for screwing it up seem to far outweight any potential gain. People say that they get bored of the same background every edition, but I honestly can't remember anybody saying the same thing of LOTR, or Conan the Cimmerian.

That's because no one is forcing me to buy a seventy dollar version of LotR in order to keep playing the game. If they were, you bet I'd ask for some new stuff the ninth time around.

Horace35
23-09-2013, 10:15
Well.. after an extended break from the game lets just say I was a little disappointed that the fluff in the army books had not changed (in some cases actually decreased) from all the 4th edition books that I have. I'm not exactly asking for wholesale changes, I just think it is a little lazy and some changes from edition to edition could add something.

Fear Ghoul
23-09-2013, 10:18
That's because no one is forcing me to buy a seventy dollar version of LotR in order to keep playing the game. If they were, you bet I'd ask for some new stuff the ninth time around.

That's really more of a pricing complaint than anything else, but more to the point GW publications aren't written with vets in mind, otherwise they would never need to include background. You're also paying in theory for the hardback, colour, rules, art, hobby tips, etc besides any small new background bits included.