PDA

View Full Version : Orks Wishlisting



Darnok
03-09-2013, 11:41
Yeah, even I like some wishlisting sometimes, get over it. :mad:

With that said:


The Safe Bets


Plastic MANs ... rumoured for longer than I care to remember, these have to be part of the next release. They are an iconic Ork unit, one of the last in FC (previously metal), would massively profit from a plastic kit, and sell like hot cakes.
Plastic Warbuggies/Wartrakks ... one of the oldest kits still in production, those need a replacement. We already know there has been design work done on them - see Imperial Armour: 8. I will eat an actual hat if we don't see new ones with the next codex.
Plastic Deffkoptas ... you can get the monopose models on 'bay only now for... how long? They absolutely NEED a kit.


The Reasonable Guesses


Something big ... perhaps a version of the Megadread (even though GW rarely converts FW units, this one could work well), or a new type of walker contraption.
Plastic characters ... a second Wyrdboy? Another Boss? A new Bigmek? All of these would work as a clampack model.
Plastic Big Guns ... again, these are old (even though not Warbuggy old...). A reasonable plastic kit, but not a "safe bet" for me.
Flash Gits ... either as a plastic kit of their own, or a FC upgrade kit for Bosses. This is the only Ork unit I can think of without a kit of its own (the one model does not really count...). Even though you can convert them from existing kits, GW wants to sell stuff. So: reasonable guess, but not a safe bet.


The Crazy Stuff


*cough* (http://natfka.blogspot.de/2013/09/faeits-rumor-tarot-breaking-ork-rumors.html) ... no comments.
Completely new stuff ... why not? Orks are varied enough to justify something completely new.



So, what is your take on this? What would you like to see? Keep in mind that we are close enough to the actual codex that none of the discussion here will have any impact whatsoever on the next release. Please also stay polite and respectful.

Joewrightgm
03-09-2013, 11:47
I think mega nobs and buggies are a no brainier.

Another interesting idea (maybe for a supplement) would be inclusion of feral ork units like boar boyz.

Darnok
03-09-2013, 11:54
I completely forgot about Flash Gits - added them to the OP.

Feral Orks would be a nice addition, but I think GW has still enough holes to fill in the current range. Despite me dividing my wishes in two categories, I consider all of the "safe bets" and "reasonable guesses" to be a must-have before even more new stuff is added.

Feral Orks would make for a cool supplement though, and GW could simply bundle existing kits from the WHF range with appropriate 40K models - i.e. Boar Riders with Warbikes for Bosses on Cyboars. Mixing the Orks/Orcs from both ranges is easy enough already.

Kyrios
03-09-2013, 12:04
I completely forgot about Flash Gits - added them to the OP.

I'm not so sure about flash gits. Seems like they could easily be rolled into the normal nobs by just giving them more shooty upgrades. I felt that the lack of models (apart from the odd boy out) and rather uninspired rules could hint that flash gits are being phased out of the main codex. Wouldn't actually miss them personally as they are a mostly bad moon/free booter unit. But then again I've only collected orks sience 4th.

The space marine release have given me very high hopes for new and exciting ork kits with loads of bits. I personally hope for.
Looted vehicle
Some sort of fortification (not likely)
Plastic kits for all the codex options (barring characters)

Wyrd tookens seems a bit odd and fiddly. Doesn't add up very well to the straight froward no nonsens philosoph of orks. Time will tell.

WarbossKurgan
03-09-2013, 12:59
I agree about MANs and Buggies. I'll be very surprised if we don't see them in the next Ork release. I imagine we'll see a plastic Warboss kit too as, like Deffkoptas, the only one that was available is now OoP.

I'd like some kind of Tellyporta troops (Nobz or Boyz) and a Tellyporta terrain-thingy to go with them.

totgeboren
03-09-2013, 13:10
My Flash Gits are the centrepiece of my army, so if they get phased out I would be very upset.
With that said, I hope they get some more reasonable rules. All they really need is a dedicated transport option (the richest boys in the warband should be able to afford a ride), and twin-linked. I don't even think they would need a points drop if they got that.

Personally I don't look forward to clan rules (if they are included), as I sort of like it that ork armies can look whatever way now and not be penalised for it. If someone want their Deffskull warboss on a bike, they can do that without feeling that they are shooting themselves in the foot because if they had just painted him red he would have got 'skilled rider' or something.

The klans are not the legions. A mechanized Blood Axe warband should not be worse point-for-point than a mechanized Evil Sun warband for example. Just make each unit useful, and people can do their theme whatever way they want to. Like, for example, if Kommandos were useful in some way, people would take them, and they would make them fit the theme.

Other than that, well... if GW ported over most FW stuff we would have a pretty useful codex as it is. What we get from FW is proper tanks, and that is something we need. Something in between a Battlewagon and a trukk. And the Looted wagon needs to go or be rethought. It just sucks and it's silly, whilst the Big Trakk from FW is really cool and also pretty useful on the tabletop.
If the mekboys tear out everything from say a Leman Russ, but use the chassi for a new tank, it should have no higher or lower risk of going out of control than a tank made by orks from scratch. The 'Don't press that!' rule is fitting for tanks looted on the same battlefield as the battle that is being fought, but makes no sense when it applies to a Rhino with a ork turret on top, as that tank has obviously been in ork possession for quite some time.

Either looted vehicles or no looted vehicles. Doing this in-between thing makes no one happy.

I would also like to see Buggies be 1-5, like Deffkoptas. If the IG can field Leman Russes in 1-3 units, we should be able to field a few more buggies than just 3.

daveNYC
03-09-2013, 13:13
They better have plastic deffkoptas, because with GW's current policy, it's either that or they get rid of the unit.

Darnok
03-09-2013, 13:18
They better have plastic deffkoptas, because with GW's current policy, it's either that or they get rid of the unit.

That would invalidate models that GW has sold for a long time (and still do - there is this horrible metal one). They will not do that.

daveNYC
03-09-2013, 13:24
That would invalidate models that GW has sold for a long time (and still do - there is this horrible metal one). They will not do that.

You just totally jinxed it.

Voss
03-09-2013, 13:26
Even though orks have had more units deleted than anyone else, I don't think they're going to do it again.


What would you like to see?
Cyboars. Really, really dead hard and orky. Plus they're a staple for one of the major clans.


I have to admit I'm puzzled by the idea of a 'looted vehicle' kit. The point is to convert a vehicle from another army's range. If its solely ork tech, it isn't properly looted.

Crazy Ivan
03-09-2013, 13:44
How about a plastic Kommando kit? Instead of the Finecast ones... they are lovely, but you either need to have repetetive models in a sizeable unit or you have to convert them (possibly with the FW kit). I'd love to see a plastic Warboss in Mega Armour, would be a good reason to start Orks (I've also wanted to build Gorgutz, but don't fancy converting Thraka for it).

The space marine release have given me very high hopes for new and exciting ork kits with loads of bits. I personally hope for.
Looted vehicle
Isn't the whole point of the looted vehicle that you loot it from another army? I'd find it characterful if this didn't get its own kit. Though an "Orky vehicle upgrade sprue" would be cool.

Rick Blaine
03-09-2013, 14:13
It's almost certain that MANz will be plastic and have an alternate build. That build may very well be shooty, and may very well be named Flash Gitz.

Darnok
03-09-2013, 14:35
It's almost certain that MANz will be plastic and have an alternate build. That build may very well be shooty, and may very well be named Flash Gitz.

I hadn't considered that, but now you mention it it makes a lot of sense to me.

Concerning looted vehicles: their "point" is and always has been to convert them from other kits. A dedicated kit of its own just makes no sense at all. The closest thing I could see would be a Bigtrakk kit - that would cut one of FWs kits though, and I'm unsure wether they want to go that route.

Bamfpanda
03-09-2013, 14:49
I would like to see a box with the options to make either flash gitz or some sort of new cybork type unit. Maybe make a Painboy a new HQ unit similar to the Chaplain for the Space Marines. Put the Cybork unit in the elite slot and keep the flash gitz in the heavy support.

ashc
03-09-2013, 14:53
The concept of 'looted' wagon will go, as gw will no doubt release an artillery piece for orks of their own which will double up as some AA option as well. It may be 'looted' by name, but they will release a model, it's guaranteed.

Sheena Easton
03-09-2013, 15:26
I can see them returning to the abandoned Gunwagon / Guntrukk concept to replace the Looted Wagon and it could be based on one of the old Epic (Battlewagon) tanks. It would make a very Orky kit with loads of gubbinz and options if done properly and it wouldn't invalidate the Looted Vehicles long-standing Ork players have converted from Russes and Rhinos. [Genuine Looted (IG) Vehicles can then be kept for Blood Axe and probably Deathskull supplements].

I was Flash Gitz to be part of a dual kit with Nobz last time but that didn't happen so I wouldn't be surprised if they were once again remade as either a variation on MANs or they brought back 'Ardboyz / Skarboyz and made them a dual kit (one shooty, one choppy)

Buggy / Trakk has to happen as those kits are ancient and look terrible alongside the rest of the range. Maybe have Deffkoptaz included in this kit as well?

Big Gunz would be nice but I suspect they will be Finecast with no new models for a long time.

Boarboyz / Cyboars would be great and they missed a trick not doing these with the Bikers - so maybe a repackaged Biker kit to include Cyboars.

Bringing back Nazdreg and Zodgrod would be great as they were the only Ork Special Characters with any character...

and my biggest wish is that Tellyporta Boyz do NOT happen in any way, shape or form. Even if they bring back Nazdreg.

Voss
03-09-2013, 16:25
The concept of 'looted' wagon will go, as gw will no doubt release an artillery piece for orks of their own which will double up as some AA option as well. It may be 'looted' by name, but they will release a model, it's guaranteed.

Like the Eldar, DA and Chaos Marine AA vehicles?

'Guarantee' is perhaps an overly strong term.

Litcheur
03-09-2013, 17:01
More grot stuff.
FW grot tanks in the Elite section, for example.
Some Fast Attack would be nice too. Maybe grot biplanes (Grotwith Camel, Tiger Grot, Grotster Gladiator ?) or triplanes (Grot Fokker ? :D)

Since all the current grot entries are incredibly cheap and belong to only two sections, it's incredibly difficult to build a 1500 pts full-grot army without FW or allies. Grot allies, of course. :D

Blempoll
03-09-2013, 17:20
I think the big kit will be a Squiggoth model

or it could be a dual kit with a BW, something like the blasta tank or the flakk cannon..


I would love a Grot HQ.. i mean they had some in Gorka Morka.. why they ever got rid of them..


Like the Eldar, DA and Chaos Marine AA vehicles?

'Guarantee' is perhaps an overly strong term.

DA got an Anti-Air Aircraft.. it was **** but they still got it.

Dinobots and the Heldrake fill the slots for Chaos

Eldar has more than enough weapons to shoot a drake or two out the air.. especially with the laser lock.


FW has a flakk Truck you can get today, it wont be too hard for GW to put an option into the book for it

Murrithius
03-09-2013, 18:17
Mad-Boyz :D

AOdinn
03-09-2013, 18:20
(first time poster, long time lurker here)


I personally would NOT want a looted wagon kit. I'd on the other hand LOVE a "Ork loota bitz kit" with all the bitz and pieces you'd even need to orkify anything.


Now for the wishlist.
The list below is just a collection of ideas I've had and liked, they are neither 100% thought out nor did I really imagine any point costs.



*CHOPPAS
All choppa type weapons (Choppa, Big Choppa etc. etc.) have a special rule that gives them +1 strength in the first round of combat (even if they didn't charge).

*Kustom Mega Blasta
Is now split into Kustom Blasta which is an assault weapon for Mekboys/Big Meks and Kustom Mega Blasta which is a heavy weapon with blast for vehicles/Mega Armored Big Mek.

*Soopa´ Engines
Vehicle upgrade. "upgrades" the speed class by one (Heavy -> Normal -> Fast -> Extra D3" everytime it moves)

*Massive Hull
Vehicle upgrade. +1 Hullpoint but "downgrades" the speed class by one (Extra D3" everytime it moves-> Fast-> Normal-> Heavy)


*ORK RULES
Orks only, does not effect grots/squigs. Orks do not have furious charge by default anymore. They still have the Mob Rule but it counts number of wounds instead of models AND then the number is multiplied by two if the models are bulky, 3 if very bulky etc. etc. New rule = [insert name] rule "if the entire unit is fearless: double Initiative in the first round of combat when charging (imagine the old "Waaagh" rule except simplified. Works of course with fearless given by the mob rule). Get the old Mob-up-Rule back (maybe modernized a little) and the Waaagh rule below.

*Waaagh
Still one use. Does the listed effects for a whole GAME turn:
-All fleeing Orks rally and all orks are fearless (and can not loose it under any circumstance).
-Fleet and Rage for everything but non-walker vehicles.
-All ranged weapons are twin-linked, if already twin-linked then they get +1 shot. (Should they all have "get's hot"?)



*HQ Kommando boss (name pending)
A nob with +1 Wound, BS and LD. Allows one squad of kommandos as troops. the kommando boss (and any kommando unit he's part of) may outflank from the opponent's side of the field (just like Snikrot's ability).
Snikrot (and any kommando unit he's part of ) may charge after outflanking but counts as a disorganized charge (I think that's what the rule is called).
Kommando squad has +1 BS and every model is armed with Slugga, Shoota, Choppa and krak/frag stikkbombs. Every model may exchange their shoota for a Blunderbuss (rng-9" str-4 AP-6 Assault3, overwatch is single autohit instead of rolling to hit).

*HQ Big Mek
Can buy mekboys and split then into other units. Big Meks have their own armory list with a lot of awesome/funky/dangerous things.

*HQ Painboss
Can buy Mad Docs and split then into other units. Painboss have their own armory list with a lot of awesome/funky/dangerous things.

*HQ Warphead
Just like the modern Weirdboy but with +1 Wound, mastery level 2 and instead of normal he get's a warp charge for every fearless ork squad within some range (12" or 18"?).
There is a normal Ork discipline like every other army (instead of constantly rolling). All the ork powers can be powered up by spending multitudes of warp charges (close combat weapon can be changed into a +2 str AP3 power weapon by spending a warp charge or two in the assault phase).
At the end of the turn the Warphead takes an automatic hit with strength equal to the warp charges remaining. If this removes his last wound then he explodes (str-2D6 AP-D6 blast, centered on the Warphead).
Maybe the Warphead should have an invulnerable save?

*Elites Weirdboy
Just like the Warphead except only 1 Wound. Has 5 - 20 Madboys with him as a unit (He's not a IC).
Madboys are armed only with 2 choppas. They have Counter-Charge and furious charge and a special mad rule which is something like "roll a D6 in the beginning of the turn. 1 = one madboy dies (for some reason), 2-5 normal, 6 = unit has fleet until end of turn"

*Elites Meganobs
They are no longer their own unit. Instead built into the nob unit. Would have some weapons/equipment only available for mega armor which would all be included IN A MEGANOB PLASTIC BOX!

*Flash Gits
No longer their own unit. Nob units can buy Snazzguns/Git Findas. Ork Boys can also be upgraded to Flash Gits (see Ork Boys).

*Fast Attack Stormboys
5+ Armor (looted mesh? Metal Harness?). Rokkit packs are the same except if using it to charge, roll the normal extra D6 as per Rokkit packs rule, if 1 is rolled then remove a single casualty as normal but instantly inflict a strength 8 AP4 hit on the charged unit.

*Fast Attack Warbikers
New rule "Psycho Blastas" when charging, instead of the normal 1 Hammer of Wrath attack, they make 2 strength 5 Hammer of Wrath attacks.

*Fast Attack Buggy's
No difference between trakk or normal anymore. For every buggy bought get one free buggy which can't replace it's Big Shoota (can buy up too three = max 6 in one squadron). NEW Plastic box with 2 buggy's per box.

*Heavy Support Big Guns
Gone. See Grotz squad below.

*Heavy Support Looted Wagons
3-for-1 Deal. A LOT MORE OPTIONS (and unreliable weaponry).

*Heavy Support Lootas
Now a heavy support. Have a special armor called something like "loota armor" or "junka armor" of "Weapon Reload (for us that play Necromunda)". This armor is 3+ but gives any attack on the unit the rending special rule (make rending better if the attack already has rending), I imagine this armor is just a bunch of fuel, ammo, rockets and other dangerous looted bits.
Any loota can exchange his Deffgun for Beamy Deffgun (lascannon? HeavyD2 lascannon?).



*Troops Grots
Get one batch of Slaver+10 Grots for free with every mob of boys. Can still be bought as normal (only in batches of Slaver+10 Grots). Can exchange 6 grots and pay X points for a Big Gun (but MUST turn every three Big Guns of the same type into a single unit... for balance).


*Troops Ork Boys Mob
Biggest change here. Ork boys only have ONE base Attack (still cost 6 points).
Have Slugga and Choppa. Can exchange choppa for shoota for free or for 1 point just buy the shoota.
New Rule: Big Gits.
Below is a list of upgrades any Ork Boy Mob can buy. You can buy any number of upgrades for each unit but if you have 2 or more upgrades then they get the Bulky rule (They think they are the best and most special around and demand respect and space). Upgrades are (Don't know what each upgrade should cost):
Flash Gits: Exchange Shoota for SnazzGun (can then buy upgrades for it as normal).
Skarboys: Stubborn and +1 attack.
Huntas: WS and BS 3 or double the amount of special weapons the mob can take (don't know which).
Stikk Bommas: Krak/Frag/Defensive grenades.
Lootas: All ranged weapons twin-linked and can take looted wagon as dedicated transport.
Cyborks: 5+ invulnerable save.
´Eavy armored: 4+ Armor save.
Trukkas: Take half as much space in transports (they literally just "hang on"), but Every glance hit kills/wounds D3 boys and every penetrative hit kills/wounds D6 (don't know about this one).

Nym
03-09-2013, 19:01
Maybe we'll get a Landa in our upcoming 'dex, dual-kitted with a Mine Laying Ship (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/images/thumb/9/94/Minepig.jpg/300px-Minepig.jpg). Pure wishlisting ofc, but not too farfetched I think... ^^

Blempoll
03-09-2013, 20:19
Maybe we'll get a Landa in our upcoming 'dex, dual-kitted with a Mine Laying Ship (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/images/thumb/9/94/Minepig.jpg/300px-Minepig.jpg). Pure wishlisting ofc, but not too farfetched I think... ^^

will we get Serenity too? to go with the Ork Reaver?

Darnok
03-09-2013, 20:34
Orks are the closest things to Reavers in 40K - concerning the looks. The mentality of Reavers would be much more chaotic... :D

I'd love some vehicle and/or flyer like the ones from Serenity though. There is some seriously orks stuff in that movie. :yes:

Blempoll
03-09-2013, 22:27
Orks are the closest things to Reavers in 40K - concerning the looks. The mentality of Reavers would be much more chaotic... :D

I'd love some vehicle and/or flyer like the ones from Serenity though. There is some seriously orks stuff in that movie. :yes:

I very much agree..

But GW design team listening to fans?

More chance of getting them to kill off the Emp and choas turning to be a hippy commune

Darnok
03-09-2013, 22:34
I disagree.

GW has a very long history of "looting" concepts from other sources. The "Reavers aesthetics" would be something thex could easily copy without too much copyright issues. It would really be more of a general inspiration than 1:1 duplication. And I would love them to use it!

Blempoll
03-09-2013, 22:41
I disagree.

GW has a very long history of "looting" concepts from other sources. The "Reavers aesthetics" would be something thex could easily copy without too much copyright issues. It would really be more of a general inspiration than 1:1 duplication. And I would love them to use it!


But they wont.. hence my analogy of them not listening to fans.

if we signed a petition with 100k+ names on it.. then sure they will listen as thats a potential 50k+ sales (no-one expects 100%)

but 2 people on "whineseer".. doubt it very much

Joewrightgm
04-09-2013, 01:13
I would probably make the following changes:

Ork Boyz: Sluggas go down to 5 points, get access to Burnas as special weapons again!

Shootas get their own entry at 6 points/model

For both, have the Ard boyz restriction to 1 mob an army go away, and the 'eavy armor option goes down to something like 3 points.

Kommandos: Get plus 1 strength; this to me makes more sense at their points price point, as well as the bigger models, as this makes them a more 'elite' option

Lootas go to Heavy Support (really, they should have been there all along if you ask me)

Make a Pain Boss a separate HQ choice, and the Big Mek a 1-1 choice based on HQ's, like a techmarine.

There's a lot more, but this is all I'm motivated to brain storm right now.

Theocracity
04-09-2013, 01:56
Here's my predictions on new models:

Plastic Meganobs, with one or more of the following options (ranked from most likely to least likely, in my opinion):
-New Weapon Options
-An HQ / upgrade character / special character option
-A dual kit (either tellyporta nobs or some other, more potentially creative variant)
-A dual kit of Flash Gits (which would require some cunning kit design)

Deffkoptas with one or more of the following options (most to least likely):
-New weapon options
-Dual kit with a new unit option (grot koptas? something else?)
-Dual kit with Buggies (requires cunning kit design)

Plastic Character Kit (one of the following)
-Mad Dok
-Big Mek (with new equipment option)

Those are, in my mind, the Sure Bets. I actually do not consider Buggies to be a sure bet, because even though they're ancient GW is reluctant to replace plastic kits. The only way I see them creating a new buggy kit is if it includes new weapon options - which is also, if you'll notice, the common denominator of my various other guesses. I think that's a required characteristic of any kit that replaces something that is already available in any format.

Beyond that, who knows? Something Squiggoth-like would be cool. So would a bonkers new contraption of some sort.

GlenMorray
04-09-2013, 03:03
Come on chaps, There's a huge difference between GW listening to fans, and GW listening to one fans poor ideas. I'd personally HATE them to start copying things from firefly. They do listen to fans, we've wanted updates to codexes of this magnitude for years and years, it used to be a Landraider would be the big monthly release, which is actually a bigger thing than most competitors btw! Now were getting a new army book every month...wtf, it's incredible if you ask me...So do they listen? I think they actually do more than you realise...rant off.

As a huge Ork fan things I'd like to see.

Way more options come back to the armoury for Warboss & Big Mek. Keep Big Meks ability to make dreads 1 Troop type.

.Nobs unit can take jump packs
.Nobs unit can take 0-1 special Weapon.
.Big Nob. Cross between nob and Warboss, basically a nasty mo fo.
.Burnas back in all mobs as an option.
.0-1 special weapon in storm boys unit.
. To make Burnas appealing retain points but give them eavy armour.
. To make Kommandos more appealing, like chap said above +1 STR.
. Kommandos are 0-2 specialist weaps for each unit.
. either that or drop points by 1.
. Agree sluggas and choppas separated, and make a distinction, choppas back to making armour 3+ best instead of 4+.
. Allow the unit champ to be Nob, mad boy (weaker version) mad dok (Weaker version).
. When Nob is in a challenge each Ork counts as 2 for "get im boss" because they're way more shouty!
. Bikes are fine, love um.
. Trucks are solid
. Buggies and tracks need to see a points reduction and some options.
. Kopter, not really used them enough to know how good they are...
. Big guns moved to elites.
. Lootas seem ace, love um. Useless, but love um...
. I want more than anything a medium armour 1-3 tank choice. 12/11/10 upgrades available, Big gun mounted two big shootas optional. That would make one little Ork so happy!
. dreads in units of 1-3. A+1 With more options.

And I'm done with my wishy washy wishlisting! :)

GlenMorray
04-09-2013, 03:11
I agree with Theocracy about those predictions, buggy is soooo crap though I think it will get a a change, I have faith!

Big release, some kind of Squiggoth probably, but I dislike them so for me I'm reluctant to admit it.

I'd also like to see the Stompa become a Heavy choice btw! haha....

All Cing Eye
04-09-2013, 03:15
Since I love me Orks I'll weigh in.

I think plastic MANs and Warbuggy/Trakk kit are pretty much guaranteed. I would also say that Nazdreg will return as a SC.

The one thing I want to see most of all tho is a proper Ork Tank, like the ones from Epic.

I hope that it comes with options to make a Shooty Tank/Grabby Tank/Mek Tank w/forcefield/Wyrdboy Tower will be the big kit for this release.

I'd also like to see Snagrod, the Arch-Arsonist, finally get a model since he pops up in the fluff almost as much as Ghazzy.

MajorWesJanson
04-09-2013, 03:27
Kitwise:
Likely:
Mega-armored Nobz with option for alternate unit, say Tellyporta boyz
Buggie/Trakk/Skorcha
Wyrdboy mini-sprue

Possible:
Squiggoth with transport/big gun options
Deff Koptas/Grot choppers
Big Guns with new AA option
Flash Gitz/Tank Bustas
Kommandoes/Skar Boyz

Would be nice:
Plastic Multipart Warboss/Big Mek
Attack Squig/Bomb Squig unit

Rules:
Boyz- Slugga/choppa drop to 5 points per model, may take either stikk bombz or shoota for 1 point per model. Eavy armor upgrade opened up to all boyz, 3 points per model. Skar boyz upgrade- +1Ws and Ld, 2 points per model. Burnas as special weapon option. Nob leading unit gains access to combi-shootas, PK, big choppa.

Flash Gitz- Base weapon is S5 AP5 Assault 2 24". May buy upgrades for the unit- More dakka 3 points per model- guns become Assault d3+1 . Bigga Barrels 3 points per model range becomes 30". Kustom Ammo 4 points per model. AP becomes d3+2. Roll at the start of the game.

brassangel
04-09-2013, 03:42
I completely forgot about Flash Gits - added them to the OP.

Feral Orks would be a nice addition, but I think GW has still enough holes to fill in the current range. Despite me dividing my wishes in two categories, I consider all of the "safe bets" and "reasonable guesses" to be a must-have before even more new stuff is added.

Feral Orks would make for a cool supplement though, and GW could simply bundle existing kits from the WHF range with appropriate 40K models - i.e. Boar Riders with Warbikes for Bosses on Cyboars. Mixing the Orks/Orcs from both ranges is easy enough already.

But they absolutely will add new stuff. GW isn't going to release a codex from now until...forever, that DOESN'T have new stuff in it. There's no way they just release updates to the old.

* I could see them condensing the Wartrakk/Buggy into one vehicle in the codex, and designing a *NEW* vehicle that can be produced from the same kit.
* Mega Armored Nobz and potentially another *NEW* unit from the same kit.
* Flash Gitz that make some other *NEW* unit from the same kit.
* Plastic clampack character.
* Finecast Special Character (or two).

That would give us a similar release to follow the pattern thus far in 6th, while introducing 2 completely new units. Heck, even the Mega Armored Nobz may have bits to make something else added to the codex. Like Space Marines, they may not see the compulsory large monster (no, I don't think they'll get a Squiggoth).

Like Tyranids, Orks are in an odd spot in that they have a few more unrepresented, and/or super old kits compared to other armies.

acme2468
04-09-2013, 04:28
Well if we're Wishing here.
One thing I would like to see is Nobs working like Wolfguard, Nobs stop being an upgrade for units, instead you buy a unit of Nobs having all the options of the Nob mob (plus more options would be cool too) that you then split nobs off of it to lead mobs if you wish. this would give some much needed variety to Ork nobs in boy mobs for example.

KR3LL
04-09-2013, 04:41
I hope for real looted vehicles. Not this crap we have now.

Greyhound
04-09-2013, 05:46
I want Cyboars very badly.
Slower than bikes (maybe no turbo boost), less dakka but much more brutal on the charge and tough as nails. FNP or inv saves would work.

I want a large squiggoth with tons of ablative wounds

I want to see chariot and cavalry rules in play

I want my vehicles to blow up quickly... But to have them come to life unexpectedly

Scammel
04-09-2013, 06:29
A plastic Cyboar kit, a plastic/Finecast Boss on a Boar to go with them and perhaps a squiggly unit and I'd be quite happy. I like the way the current book handles the Klans as the Klans have never been much more than predilections towards certain units with the basis of any given Klan army always being basic Boys still, to my knowledge. The only thing currently really lacking is decent Snakebite representation.

spaint2k
04-09-2013, 06:48
Madboyz and cyboars (or squig riders) would be things I'd actually buy.

totgeboren
04-09-2013, 08:10
I made a "Deffsoot", a count-as Deffkopta, but it's more like Tau crisis suit with a combi-weapon under one arm and the model is holding a bomb under the other arm.
(http://www.the-waaagh.com/forums/?showtopic=33552)

It was well received over at the Waaagh, it is would be fairly easy to make a dual kit of MANz and some sort of flying shooty MAZs. Voila, new unit to combine with a MANz kit.

For big kit, I think we will see a Squiggoth. They were more iconic back in RT/Epic Space Marine days, so ties in well with the retro-design GW has been using lately. It's big, and hardly anyone own a Squiggoth, but can be made a fitting size for w40k (that is, not the same size as the Stompa).

Ironbone
04-09-2013, 08:56
Heh, i see, that "fix too weak units, do not fix too strong units" trend is in good condition :p. Heh, its wishlisting afterall, but at least try seeing things from non-ork perspective :p.

And as non-ork player, these are things and changes i would like to see in upcoming 6th ed orkz codex :

- bikes get rigd of that idiotic "always 4+ cover" rule. Bikes already have ( only little less stupid ) jinx rule for that. And i never understand how bike can grant a 4+ armour as well :p. Obviously ( as all bikes now :shifty: ), they will get a very large price drop in return.
- deffrolla neffed a lot, but not too much. Seariously, this upgrade is broken, makeing battlewagons "flat anything in 10 seconds flat" units :shifty:. How on earth you can ram something k6 times, with str 10 no matter how far you moved, when single "always" str10 hit will be absoulety enoungh. And tank shock. Exstra hits on whole unit just beacuse bravery of one guy :wtf: ?
- And boyz. I realy see no reason why they should be cheaper... They are in the same price-to-efect basket as grey hunters. Underpriced :p. Especialy when roumors say, that orkz will gest own 6+ FnP. This alone is worth at least staying in current price. Sluggas and shootas should be separate units tho.

And what else should change ?

In most points i agree with floks above. Burnas in mobs, some sort of semi-reliable ( nothing in orkz codex should be very reliable IMHO ) Anti-tank weapon. And ofc more crazy ork-tech :D.

And new units. Some new ones can smiply be craeted by bringing back old units from 3 ed codex. Scarboyz, Painboss, Cyborkz, all fit playstyle and fluff very well.

Also teleyporya noobs are IMHO good concept, either as separate unit, or regular meganobs upgrade. DS with some fun side efects ( both negative and positive ones) can fit codex very well.

And aircrafts. Duh, obviously they will be in codex :p.

TheBearminator
04-09-2013, 09:40
Give the meks a kleva' way to lay out minefields, that we can clear with our grots! It must be the least used special rule since the amphibious Chimera.

totgeboren
04-09-2013, 10:15
I agree with Ironbone in that we should also consider what needs to be nerfed. Sure, the Ork 'dex is hardly top tier, but the example of Bikes is pretty good. Why do they have a 4+ armour save? The models wear sleeveless jackets!
The 4+ cover save is a throwback from much earlier editions, but the rules they had back then (always cover, and always cover if the enemy shoots through the bikes to someone behind them) applies to all now. And they have jink so.
The Deffrolla is maybe a bit too good, shootas should be a +1 pts upgrade, though I could see choppa boys dropping to 5 pts per model if nothing else changes. I dunno, ork boys look so overpowered on paper for the points, but on the tabletop they are pretty weak.
I faced a ork player a few days ago, and he had lots and lots of ork boys. My MoK Chaos Marines went through them like they weren't even there. I think I killed a full mob of 30 in one turn with 10 marines, only losing one or two models all in all. Since and repeat.
This is my experience using ork boys too. They advance, die in droves, then get killed in close combat easily. This isn't 3ed anymore, anti-infantry weapons are really cheap and available in large numbers, meaning light infantry like orks have an incredibly tough time.
Basic boys are not undercosted, even if they look like it on paper.
The bike upgrade needs to cost more for Warbosses, because giving a warboss a 'real' T6 is incredibly good, so good that it just feels stupid to bring a warboss on foot.

I think the point cost of the elites should be tweaked. Having Tankhuntas, Burnas and Lootas all cost the same makes little sense, when Lootas are much better than Tankhuntas for example, and Burnas are somewhere in between.

Grots... now there we have an overcosted unit, but it's not really the point cost per grot that is the problem, it's the oddly expensive Runtherds that are obligatory that makes them much too expensive. However, to promote the sale of a large number of models, I would prefer to see grots drop by one point in cost, whilst the herder remain as they are. Sort of promote the unit as a Runtherders mob, and all the grots are their 'special weapon', instead of it being a grot mob, with runt herders that tag along because you must include them.

TheBearminator
04-09-2013, 11:11
I'm not a very big fan of the Squiggoth, however I think it's highly likely that we'll see one in the codex.

But just a speculation on my behalf: how many points is a Stompa in relative terms, compared to a Baneblade for example? I can't tell as I don't play Apocalypse sized games. Would it be to much to ask for it in the regular heavy support section? I guess so, however one can always hope. It's more my style than the Squiggoth, plus it's much simpler to scratch build for us konvertas (which of course GW wouldn't like).

Edit: From what I can recall though, GW has never to date included their own Apocalypse models in any codex update. Can't even remember how many armies that have got one.

IG - Baneblade
Orks - Stompa
Necrons - Tessie Vault/Obelisk
Chaos SM - Dr. Robotnics Evil robot tank

Nym
04-09-2013, 11:44
lol, non-ork player start coming in and call for nerfs (deffrola, bikes, boyz). Go whine in the Chaos section and stop raining on our parade. This thread is for wishlisting, and I'm definitely not going to wish for nerfs... It's no like anything we post here will change the upcoming codex anyway.

Darnok
04-09-2013, 11:54
The Stompa can handle small armies on his own. It is way too powerful for anything below 3000 points - from where on you can legally field it already. There is just no rational reason to include it in the codex.

I hope the Squiggoth stays where it is now: with FW. It would not add anything to the codex really - it is basically a weaker Battlewagon on legs.

What I'd love to see: a big shooty tank, like the Battlefortress. Something bigger and more impressive like the Battlewagon, and with a focus on ranged killyness.

Concerning new units: why not do a box to build up to two Warbuggies, with the options to make them (HS) Blastabuggies and/or (Elite/HS) Mekboy Speedstas? It would give the long needed new Warbuggy model, add a HS version, and introduce (known from Epic) the Mekboy Speedsta, which could come with all kinds od shenanigans for different battlefield roles. I'd love it!

Ironbone
04-09-2013, 12:12
lol, non-ork player start coming in and call for nerfs (deffrola, bikes, boyz). Go whine in the Chaos section and stop raining on our parade. This thread is for wishlisting, and I'm definitely not going to wish for nerfs... It's no like anything we post here will change the upcoming codex anyway.
And whats wrong with me being no ork player :p ? Only ork players are allowed to post here :shifty: ? You deny me my right to wish that some waaaay too good things in overall very good codex will be neffed to more resonable level :p? Thats my wishlist for orkz, deal with it :D.


though I could see choppa boys dropping to 5 pts per model if nothing else changes. I dunno, ork boys look so overpowered on paper for the points, but on the tabletop they are pretty weak.
Boyz are not overpowerd, they are simply little too cheap IMHO. They can stay on same price as now, or go point up, and have that sily FnP. Never point down, unless we really want to start another spiral of reducing points costs to stupidly low level. If you realy want boyz for 5 pts, fell free to demand :p, but in return, accept that then guardsman shall be 4 pts, to continue beeing equal in cost-to-efectivnes ratio.

Also - boyz are not weak. Its their enemies are too strong. Do not buff orkz, neff them :p.

Nym
04-09-2013, 12:35
You deny me my right to wish that some waaaay too good things in overall very good codex will be neffed to more resonable level :p?
Well, sorry if I sounded rude, I didn't mean to deny you of anything ! It's just that Orks may seem strong (especially boyz) to many non-Ork players, because they see them in a vaccum. When you actually play Orks, you're made aware of their limitations, and you know they're definitely not a very good codex anymore (I'd rate them a little below average if you don't spam Lootas).

As totgeboren pointed out, Ork boyz look overpowered on paper but behave poorly on the tabletop, and there's a few reasons here :

Their stat line is VERY good for their point cost, point taken. Unfortunately, they have a huge footprint and can easily be bottlenecked contrary to elite units whose power per model is much higher. 6th edition also brought Killzones back into the game by reducing pile-in distance, meaning that in some fights, Boyz are completely denied the right to strike back. Even when they get to strike back, out of 30 boyz only 15 or so manage to do it on average, because they need to be 2" away from a model in base contact.

Add to that their almost non-existent save, the ever-increasing number of cover-ignoring weapons, and the fact that Nobz (in Boyz squads) got kicked in the balls (Challenges, Sniping of all kind, casualties removed from the front, etc...), and you'll understand why Boyz need either a point decrease (at least for Sluggas) or something fresh to make them viable again.

What made them so strong before was their 30-wounds Power Klaw Nob, thanks to which an Ork Mob could kill *anything* in the game, from Bloodthirsters to Abaddon. Since this is not possible anymore, Boyz are now reduced to grabbing objectives and camping with Big Shotas. The "Boyz before Toyz" motto doesn't work anymore, and they're no better than cultists atm.

Luffwaffle
04-09-2013, 12:40
I play against mostly orks. The only thing that I noticed that they need is so way to deal with AV14 at medium or long range. As a guard player orks have no trouble dealing with my infantry and AV12 vehicles, but aslong as I can keep my Leman Russes out of Assualt range my LRs can move around the board pretty much unchallenged while taking out chunks of boys with every shot.

Ironbone
04-09-2013, 13:05
Well, sorry if I sounded rude, I didn't mean to deny you of anything !

Ha ha, don't worry, none offence taken :D.


It's just that Orks may seem strong (especially boyz) to many non-Ork players, because they see them in a vaccum. When you actually play Orks, you're made aware of their limitations, and you know they're definitely not a very good codex anymore (I'd rate them a little below average if you don't spam Lootas).
I do see them in vaccum, i play quite often with greenskins, and try see things from both my, and my opponet army perspective. In my opionion logic in wishlisting should be simple - fix whats broken ( both in mean overpowerd and useless ), and give us shiny new toys that fit fluff, needs and army theme.


Unfortunately, they have a huge footprint and can easily be bottlenecked contrary to elite units whose power per model is much higher. 6th edition also brought Killzones back into the game by reducing pile-in distance, meaning that in some fights, Boyz are completely denied the right to strike back. Even when they get to strike back, out of 30 boyz only 15 or so manage to do it on average, because they need to be2" away from a model in base contact.

Add to that their almost non-existent save, the ever-increasing number of cover-ignoring weapons, and the fact that Nobz (in Boyz squads) got kicked in the balls (Challenges, Sniping of all kind, casualties removed from the front, etc...), and you'll understand why Boyz need either a point decrease (at least for Sluggas) or something fresh to make them viable again.
You know you just listed perhaps every single trouble that I encounter when playing my blob IG squad :D ? Does this mean that my guards should also be cheaper :chrome: ?

As i said - as i may think boyz are too cheap, i have no issue if they stay at current price ( even with this small FnP, if rest of the codex be ok ). But droping them to 5 pts will just make them too cheap. Unless it will be followed by similar drop in other armies, so balance will reamain the same.

totgeboren
04-09-2013, 13:16
You know you just listed perhaps every single trouble that I encounter when playing my blob IG squad :D ? Does this mean that my guards should also be cheaper :chrome: ?


This is definitely not true, because a blob squad with FRFSRF will do a lot more damage shooting than what it would do in close combat, and when in close combat they can just send a cheap sgt forward to neutralise killy characters, so how do you bottleneck a squad that is supposed to stand and shoot and then just tie stuff up for as long as possible?
Also, blobs are there to neutralise deathstars, not kill them. Commissars in particular makes blobs really good at this, and blobs give the IG list something really really useful.
Blob squads are also the worst offenders when it comes to highlighting how bad the challenge system works, whilst big Ork mobs are probably the unit in the game that got hit the hardest by challenges.

I do give you that a blob is becoming increasingly hard to use, because of the amount of cover-ignoring Ap5 or better guns in the game, but a 30-man blob squad is way better point for point than a 30-boy slugga squad with a pk nob.

daveNYC
04-09-2013, 13:21
You know you just listed perhaps every single trouble that I encounter when playing my blob IG squad :D ? Does this mean that my guards should also be cheaper :chrome: ?


Did you really just compare Ork Boyz to standard IG troops? Not to put too fine a point on it, but IG are supposed to be horrible in CC.

Ironbone
04-09-2013, 14:26
Did you really just compare Ork Boyz to standard IG troops?
Yes, why not :p ? Both units are basic Troops of their amries, and while the are diffrent in use, in some roles are similar.


but IG are supposed to be horrible in CC.
The are not suposed to be, guard IS uterrly terrible in CC, to my constant sadness :cries:.

Importman
04-09-2013, 14:45
Honestly I have waited forever to get my hands on some new plastic meganobz. With dynamic poses like their space marine counterparts. (terminators not this static and ugly as hell ventures my centurions)

That and some plastic pirate themed flash gitz. Oh yeah and some big guns on them flash gitz of course.

Sent from my GT-N7105 using Tapatalk 2

daveNYC
04-09-2013, 14:46
Yes, why not :p ?

Because Orks is green, and green is da best.

Abaraxas
04-09-2013, 14:54
Upgrade kits to make the boyz clan specific would be great :angel:

Ironbone
04-09-2013, 15:06
Because Orks is green, and green is da best.
Hey, my guard is also green.

Well, green is on thier useless armour...

But counts :D !


Upgrade kits to make the boyz clan specific would be great
Well, if GW ever do somthing like this, it would just some vechicle glifs, banner poles,and maybe one or two standards. All sold in price of gold :shifty:.

WarbossKurgan
04-09-2013, 16:27
Concerning new units: why not do a box to build up to two Warbuggies, with the options to make them (HS) Blastabuggies and/or (Elite/HS) Mekboy Speedstas? It would give the long needed new Warbuggy model, add a HS version, and introduce (known from Epic) the Mekboy Speedsta, which could come with all kinds od shenanigans for different battlefield roles. I'd love it!

^ This!!!:D
Mekboy Speedsta would be all kinds of awesome.

Theocracity
04-09-2013, 16:58
The Stompa can handle small armies on his own. It is way too powerful for anything below 3000 points - from where on you can legally field it already. There is just no rational reason to include it in the codex.

Agreed.


I hope the Squiggoth stays where it is now: with FW. It would not add anything to the codex really - it is basically a weaker Battlewagon on legs.

Well, it would be a monstrous creature with some potentially fun new rules or ways to mount interesting weapons or equipment. That being said, I doubt it would be a direct port of the Squiggoth - it would likely be some new variant, if it appears at all.


What I'd love to see: a big shooty tank, like the Battlefortress. Something bigger and more impressive like the Battlewagon, and with a focus on ranged killyness.

I'm more inspired by a squiggoth-like creature than this idea, but to each their own.


Concerning new units: why not do a box to build up to two Warbuggies, with the options to make them (HS) Blastabuggies and/or (Elite/HS) Mekboy Speedstas? It would give the long needed new Warbuggy model, add a HS version, and introduce (known from Epic) the Mekboy Speedsta, which could come with all kinds od shenanigans for different battlefield roles. I'd love it!

That's a cool idea that would certainly fill the requirement of adding new units or weapon options. What did the speedsta used to do? Did it mount Mekboy equipment or serve as a transport for the Mekboy? If the latter, that might make a good excuse to include a plastic Mek with the kit - and possibly use the chariot rules.

DoctorTom
04-09-2013, 18:31
More grot stuff.
FW grot tanks in the Elite section, for example.
Some Fast Attack would be nice too. Maybe grot biplanes (Grotwith Camel, Tiger Grot, Grotster Gladiator ?) or triplanes (Grot Fokker ? :D)

Since all the current grot entries are incredibly cheap and belong to only two sections, it's incredibly difficult to build a 1500 pts full-grot army without FW or allies. Grot allies, of course. :D

We definitely need a Grot HQ choice to be able to make an all-grot army (Also, with an all-grot army, the chance to dump the runtherds). This might be a supplement, though.

I can see something like a megadred showing up, something larger than a deff dred but not up at Stompa range.

While we're wishlisting, let's wishlist some rules for Orks. FNP would be nice, but as an alternative I wouldn't mind them getting a 4+ invulnerable save vs. overwatch (sort of like a limited version of what wyches used to have, but only against overwatch. It would be too much to hope for a dodge/invulnerable/whatever save against all close combat).

Darnok
04-09-2013, 19:36
While we're wishlisting, let's wishlist some rules for Orks. FNP would be nice, but as an alternative I wouldn't mind them getting a 4+ invulnerable save vs. overwatch (sort of like a limited version of what wyches used to have, but only against overwatch. It would be too much to hope for a dodge/invulnerable/whatever save against all close combat).

And with what justification do Orks suddenly dodge bullets once they enter close combat? :eyebrows:

Blempoll
04-09-2013, 19:43
And with what justification do Orks suddenly dodge bullets once they enter close combat? :eyebrows:

they live to kill.. quite literally.. they are unafraid of death as The Nightbringer never visited their homeworld.

The fact they will continue fighting until they are a pile of dust or mutilated parts should convey some benefit

Darnok
04-09-2013, 19:50
they live to kill.. quite literally.. they are unafraid of death as The Nightbringer never visited their homeworld.

The fact they will continue fighting until they are a pile of dust or mutilated parts should convey some benefit

That holds true for Deamons, Nids, Necrons just as well. It is a silly idea, and reeks of mary-sue-ism.

Scammel
04-09-2013, 19:53
they live to kill.. quite literally.. they are unafraid of death as The Nightbringer never visited their homeworld.

The fact they will continue fighting until they are a pile of dust or mutilated parts should convey some benefit

It's called T4.

Blempoll
04-09-2013, 20:01
That holds true for Deamons, Nids, Necrons just as well. It is a silly idea, and reeks of mary-sue-ism.

Necrons have RP.. nids will get something soon and Daemons are 5++

orks get t4 and next to no save..

they dont care if they live or die, just as long as they kill something.

they are more skilled in CC than Wyches, yet they get a benefit.. marines **** themselves when they see orks in the fluff, yet have ATSKNF despite orks not knowing what fear is.

Mary-sue-ism would be giving them t5 5++ and 4/5++ FnP.

All he was wishlisting was an invuln against overwatch. Not an invuln in CC or other shooting attacks.. just something that will let them to actually reach combat..

Darnok
04-09-2013, 20:07
"Wishlisting" doesn't mean I have to hail all of it as awesome though. Some ideas are just stupid, and they should get called like that. ;)

Blempoll
04-09-2013, 20:18
"Wishlisting" doesn't mean I have to hail all of it as awesome though. Some ideas are just stupid, and they should get called like that. ;)

Orks as they are now, fit in with what 4th was like.

they are now 2 editions old.. a CC relic in a shooty world.

so something to keep them alive to get to CC would be a good idea. Not a stupid one.

TheBearminator
04-09-2013, 20:40
I've already come up with the solution in another thread (humble me;)).

Perhaps orks should have an overall 6+ invulnerable. But what I argue is, give orks a 5+ invulnerable to overwatch to represent the out of this world adrenaline rush a charging Ork experiences. The time when an Ork gets to roar "Waaagh!!!" and rush into the midst of the enemies with his choppa raised and shooting his slugga at everything he can see, at that specific moment every Ork feels invincible, unbeatable. They'll take a bullet to the forehead and think "Cool, next fight I'm gonna be a skarboy!". I think the rule could be called blood lust. :)

Wyches should have their dodge save conferred (but nerfed) to work in a similar way. Probably 5++ as well. This will represent their agility and lightning fast reflexes.

Blempoll
04-09-2013, 20:46
I've already come up with the solution in another thread (humble me;)).

Perhaps orks should have an overall 6+ invulnerable. But what I argue is, give orks a 5+ invulnerable to overwatch to represent the out of this world adrenaline rush a charging Ork experiences. The time when an Ork gets to roar "Waaagh!!!" and rush into the midst of the enemies with his choppa raised and shooting his slugga at everything he can see, at that specific moment every Ork feels invincible, unbeatable. They'll take a bullet to the forehead and think "Cool, next fight I'm gonna be a skarboy!". I think the rule could be called blood lust. :)

Wyches should have their dodge save conferred (but nerfed) to work in a similar way. Probably 5++ as well. This will represent their agility and lightning fast reflexes.

overall 6+ FnP is better than 6++

they feel invincible and shrug off wounds that would kill a normal man.. even seriously injure a marine..

and in first round of combat boost that to 5+ FnP applied at the declaration of the combat phase.

and on the once a game WAAAAAAAAAGH!! they get the 5++ to represent their all out gutsy mental outburst.

Theocracity
04-09-2013, 21:09
Am I the only Ork player who doesn't think that boyz need the ability to be tougher or ignore elements of the BRB rules to be useful?

We've had plenty of discussions around here lately on how assault units benefit from LoS blocking terrain, intelligent positioning and support, and a measured amount of use (ie be aware of the limitations of mono-assault armies). All of those discussions apply to Orks. They would benefit from more forms of effective support and a lower price point, but their removed-with-shovels death rate is part of the appeal of da boyz in my book.

Give me more gubbins and give me more boyz - I can put them to good use without needing to ignore overwatch.

(That being said, a generic Mad Dok that provides FNP would be a good form of support for Orks. But it doesn't need to be baked into their stat line.)

TheBearminator
04-09-2013, 21:13
Orks as they are now, fit in with what 4th was like.

they are now 2 editions old.. a CC relic in a shooty world.

so something to keep them alive to get to CC would be a good idea. Not a stupid one.

Exactly this. The context is essentially different now to squishy and half-squishy cc units. Give them something to counter the overwatch threat.

Darnok
04-09-2013, 21:16
Am I the only Ork player who doesn't think that boyz need the ability to be tougher or ignore elements of the BRB rules to be useful?

No. I think basic Orks should be... well, basic. They are cheapish brutes, that tend to die in droves, but if they somehow manage to reach the enemy intact, they wreck face.

If you want impressive results, take some other unit. And if you want a reliable basic troop choice: watch for another army to play.

Blempoll
04-09-2013, 21:28
No. I think basic Orks should be... well, basic. They are cheapish brutes, that tend to die in droves, but if they somehow manage to reach the enemy intact, they wreck face.

If you want impressive results, take some other unit. And if you want a reliable basic troop choice: watch for another army to play.

its strange that i was talking about orks.. and you and theo seem to take the ork bit out of orks and think i mean boyz.

Nobs, lootas, flash gitz, warbikers AND boys all suffer from getting into CC. They are meant to be THE army to fight in CC.. yet they struggle to get there..

Sure more terrain, better screening tactics and other stuff will work.. but only in a LGS that has extra terrain.. and you wish to sacrifice a BW to get 20boys into CC

To get Nobs relaiably into CC you stick them on a bike, but with the amount of Cover ignoring weapons now you cant even get to combat let alone across the board.


Orks are fun to play.. and it can be fun to lose a bucket load of orks to a well placed large blast.. but to lose orks in overwatch that denies them a combat phase that they are striking the same time as the befuddled/mindless autmatons anyway, makes them go from being an army of fun to one of just simply packing up before you started.

Theocracity
04-09-2013, 21:35
No. I think basic Orks should be... well, basic. They are cheapish brutes, that tend to die in droves, but if they somehow manage to reach the enemy intact, they wreck face.

If you want impressive results, take some other unit. And if you want a reliable basic troop choice: watch for another army to play.

Indeed. I'd say that if there's a problem with basic boyz, its that their damage potential is too all-or-nothing - too much of it is wrapped up in the PK nob. They need more options for different types of damage dealing - and since the boyz kit is unlikely to change to include new gear, that's likely to come from either changed rules for existing equipment (more useful big choppas or stickbombs), non-equipment rules, or new attached characters.

Non-HQ Meks, Doks, or Madboyz might be good ways to add new abilities to boyz mobs - perhaps they could be alternate upgrade characters instead of nobs. Meks could provide auras, shooty gear, or cunnin' tricks. Doks could provide FNP or fightin' juice that provides random berserker effects. Madboyz could provide some psyker buffs and shooting attacks.

Theocracity
04-09-2013, 21:47
Nobs, lootas, flash gitz, warbikers AND boys all suffer from getting into CC.

Regular nobs could use some help, but they'd probably be better just being cheaper. Meganobs do just fine, as do Warbikers - and the other two don't care about it.


They are meant to be THE army to fight in CC.. yet they struggle to get there..

You know how many armies try to claim the title of Best at CC? How about we drop the idea of forcing them into that box and just play Orks holistically? Use CC as a tool, not as a raison d'être.


Sure more terrain, better screening tactics and other stuff will work.. but only in a LGS that has extra terrain.. and you wish to sacrifice a BW to get 20boys into CC

There are ways to ensure your LGS uses better terrain - build it yourself and put it in the rotation. Many players who want to use assault will thank you. And expendable units is the name of the Ork game.


To get Nobs relaiably into CC you stick them on a bike, but with the amount of Cover ignoring weapons now you cant even get to combat let alone across the board.

But nobs have other options for protection besides cover - they can have FNP, armor, and the speed to make use of LoS.


Orks are fun to play.. and it can be fun to lose a bucket load of orks to a well placed large blast.. but to lose orks in overwatch that denies them a combat phase that they are striking the same time as the befuddled/mindless autmatons anyway, makes them go from being an army of fun to one of just simply packing up before you started.

If all you care about is dominating the assault phase, then you have to be serious about using the tools you're given and not rely purely on a single unit's statline. Proper use of terrain, expendable units and a long view of game objectives can give you victory -or at least an enjoyable game - even if your Orks don't match up to elite assault armies.

TheBearminator
04-09-2013, 21:52
What I don't understand is how people can be upset that someone suggest a rule that lets a close combat army handle the EFFECTS of overwatch, when at the same time there are units (tau and eldar) that has or can aquire special rules to do overwatch even more deadly.

This is wishlisting, and I think a counter to overwatch in the shooty environment of 6th edition ain't too much to wish for. Of course if the orks get a very powerful special rule they shall pay for it.

Theocracity
04-09-2013, 22:00
What I don't understand is how people can be upset that someone suggest a rule that lets a close combat army handle the EFFECTS of overwatch, when at the same time there are units (tau and eldar) that has or can aquire special rules to do overwatch even more deadly.

This is wishlisting, and I think a counter to overwatch in the shooty environment of 6th edition ain't too much to wish for. Of course if the orks get a very powerful special rule they shall pay for it.

I'm not upset about the suggestions, I just don't think its necessary. I think the effects of Overwatch are exaggerated in a lot of discussions, and everyone who wants to assault wants a way to counter it - which in my mind makes it pointless to have as a rule in the first place.

Frankly the best way for Orks to avoid overwatch is by being cheap enough to multi-charge - they can only overwatch once, after all. I'd like that more than paying a surcharge for a baked-in rule that I might not even want or need to use.

Blempoll
04-09-2013, 22:37
Frankly the best way for Orks to avoid overwatch is by being cheap enough to multi-charge - they can only overwatch once, after all. I'd like that more than paying a surcharge for a baked-in rule that I might not even want or need to use.

But you lose the extra attack that they desperately need. Now more than ever, as fewer and fewer make it to CC.

an army (not grot) wide special rule that gives them a little bit extra oomph to get there, like waagh used to be..

like i said above.. they are a 4th ed army stuck in limbo in 6th that to succeed you need to spam planes and lootas.

SpanielBear
04-09-2013, 22:38
Now here is something I'd like to see, purely as a fluffy element- all non-Nob Ork units must shoot at the closest viable target (the sluggers can ignore that landraider, even orks don't get that excited!), unless a ld test is passed. If the boyz nob is still alive, they test on ld 10 (cause he can get da gitz to stick to da plan, see?)

Theocracity
04-09-2013, 22:59
But you lose the extra attack that they desperately need. Now more than ever, as fewer and fewer make it to CC.

an army (not grot) wide special rule that gives them a little bit extra oomph to get there, like waagh used to be..

like i said above.. they are a 4th ed army stuck in limbo in 6th that to succeed you need to spam planes and lootas.

I don't always assault with the intention of a turn 1 victory, but I see what you mean. I still don't think its necessary to counter overwatch, which tends to have a bigger psychological effect than gameplay effect.

I do think that WAAAGH! needs a revamp of some sort. It should either have a small effect over a longer time period, or a bigger effect if its only one turn. I think it would also make sense to have different effects based on the type of unit, like how the Waaaghplane rules work.

Blempoll
04-09-2013, 23:18
Now here is something I'd like to see, purely as a fluffy element- all non-Nob Ork units must shoot at the closest viable target (the sluggers can ignore that landraider, even orks don't get that excited!), unless a ld test is passed. If the boyz nob is still alive, they test on ld 10 (cause he can get da gitz to stick to da plan, see?)

they are called tankbustas

and arent taken for that very reason.

Darnok
05-09-2013, 08:30
they are called tankbustas

and arent taken for that very reason.

Now maybe you can see why some of us are against "fluffy" special rules.

Ironbone
05-09-2013, 11:57
Now maybe you can see why some of us are against "fluffy" special rules.
Simply because majority of players thinks in "is it powerful ? If yes, then is fluffy as well" logic :p.

Darnok
05-09-2013, 12:28
Simply because majority of players thinks in "is it powerful ? If yes, then is fluffy as well" logic :p.

No, because what constitutes a rule as "fluffy" is extremely subjective. If you let background alone dictate what special rules a unit or army has... urgh, just no. Every army out there can make a point about this or that being invincible "because that one story says so".

Grocklock
05-09-2013, 13:14
My changers I would like are:

•Ork boys either drop to 5 pts or gain 6+ FnP, add the option for a 5 pt big Choppa to be take for each 10 boys in the mob. Also allow burnas under the same stimulation. Why the orks don't have any close combat option for the boys bathals me.

•Big choppas become s+2 ap5 same price. They are supposed to culever.

•all orks should be able to reroll there charge roll but not get fleet. This shows there designer to get into the fight to prove them selves. Maybe tie it in with the mob rule. So if they are alot of them around they can easily get into the fight.

•give tank bustas tank hunter. They are the only unit in the game that where this is there sole job. Why don't they have it. And take away glory hogs.

•reduce the cost of the deffkopptas buzz saw to 15 its not worth the price at 25 pts.

•grot life change to offer a 4+ cover save as the grots jump infront of the bullets. But for every successful save a grot is removed. This would pull grots from the back of the board to the front where they belong.

•bring back the Squig caterpult. Don't car how just do it. It's just cool ok.

•change the Deff roller to only do d3 hits at S10 against vehicles. Against everything else it does D6 S10 hits. If a unit elect to do a death or glory and the selected model fails to stop the battle wagon the selected model ONLY takes d3 S10 hits. Also the Deff roller should be Ap3 or 4.
This reduces its effectiveness but doesn't nurf it, to be pointless.

DoctorTom
05-09-2013, 16:16
And with what justification do Orks suddenly dodge bullets once they enter close combat? :eyebrows:

They're so focused on getting up there and killing the opponent they ignore the pain from the bullets. It's an alternate way of doing something like FNP, but apply it only to overwatch.

As people have pointed out, we have a close combat army with a low initiative and a crappy armor save, which was fine in earlier editions but with overwatch added in is a much bigger problem. We shouldn't have to expect to need battlewagons to haul the units around, and we shouldn't have to expect to have very few survivors get to attack on their initiative just because we wanted a unit that could be carried around in a trukk. Having an invulnerable save that applied only to overwatch seems a better way to handle the overwatch part than to put in FNP that applies only to overwatch. It's certainly not overpowered compared to giving them FNP all the time, since they would only get it during overwatch itself.

Blempoll
05-09-2013, 16:53
They're so focused on getting up there and killing the opponent they ignore the pain from the bullets. It's an alternate way of doing something like FNP, but apply it only to overwatch.

As people have pointed out, we have a close combat army with a low initiative and a crappy armor save, which was fine in earlier editions but with overwatch added in is a much bigger problem. We shouldn't have to expect to need battlewagons to haul the units around, and we shouldn't have to expect to have very few survivors get to attack on their initiative just because we wanted a unit that could be carried around in a trukk. Having an invulnerable save that applied only to overwatch seems a better way to handle the overwatch part than to put in FNP that applies only to overwatch. It's certainly not overpowered compared to giving them FNP all the time, since they would only get it during overwatch itself.

even what i said isnt over powered..

a 6+ FnP in first round of combat hat takes affect after declaring charge.

Just chuck it in as "chapter trait"

Snakebites are more battle hardened as they tend to shun technology and prefer to be more feral.

Ironbone
05-09-2013, 17:54
a 6+ FnP in first round of combat hat takes affect after declaring charge.

Just chuck it in as "chapter trait"

Snakebites are more battle hardened as they tend to shun technology and prefer to be more feral.
Meh. Too much complicated, rules suposed to be simple.

Army wide FnP 6+ is way better IMHO.

And do not touch cost of boyz ;).

Thoume
05-09-2013, 19:15
What if, instead of 6+ fnp and other gubbins to try and limit the damage caused by overwatch etc, ork mobs deal hammer of wrath hits equal to the number of models left (possibly wounds) in the mob on a successful charge? Stormboyz / bike mobs get this in place of the usual USR. Maybe at the cost of an attack or a point increase.

To me Orks live for the charge but don't handle attrition well. If they can't curb stomp the enemy in the first few rounds they'll back off, gather more dudes then try windmilling their way through the enemy ranks again, provided they don't all get hacked down beforehand! Just think the extra hits would be the payoff for surviving overwatch without trying to counter-nerf it to the point where it becomes redundant having the rule in the first place!

It might be slightly naive of me but I've never had a game where overwatch has completely decimated my mobs (let alone hit anything!) to the point where they couldn't do much damage back, and I've yet to face a tau player who rolls a gunline set up to maximise their overwatch shenanigans. If I was faced with a unit that looked like it could do some damage in overwatch, I'd soften them up with dakka before charging, or bait them into charging a mob of shootas! :p

TheBearminator
05-09-2013, 19:27
On top of my wishlist:
I want an explanation to why Orks are always put on hold longer than any other of the more established armies. So what is it this time GW? Seriously?! Can anyone tell me? :mad:

Theocracity
05-09-2013, 19:39
What if, instead of 6+ fnp and other gubbins to try and limit the damage caused by overwatch etc, ork mobs deal hammer of wrath hits equal to the number of models left (possibly wounds) in the mob on a successful charge? Stormboyz / bike mobs get this in place of the usual USR. Maybe at the cost of an attack or a point increase.

To me Orks live for the charge but don't handle attrition well. If they can't curb stomp the enemy in the first few rounds they'll back off, gather more dudes then try windmilling their way through the enemy ranks again, provided they don't all get hacked down beforehand! Just think the extra hits would be the payoff for surviving overwatch without trying to counter-nerf it to the point where it becomes redundant having the rule in the first place!

It might be slightly naive of me but I've never had a game where overwatch has completely decimated my mobs (let alone hit anything!) to the point where they couldn't do much damage back, and I've yet to face a tau player who rolls a gunline set up to maximise their overwatch shenanigans. If I was faced with a unit that looked like it could do some damage in overwatch, I'd soften them up with dakka before charging, or bait them into charging a mob of shootas! :p

I like your ideas. A revamped Waaagh! rule that includes HoW attacks somehow would be pretty cool. And I agree that the threat of overwatch gets exaggerated - it's just that the one time it skunks a charge outweighs the multiple times it doesn't in people's minds. If its a concern in game, the boyz should be given support from other units to overcome it - and a new codex with more robust support options would be nice.

TheBearminator
05-09-2013, 21:01
I may not sound very orky now, but I've never liked the Waaagh rule. Think it's to standardised, too limited. I've always wanted something crazy, more spectacular. It doesn't necessarily have to be awesome from a gaming perspective. But maybe more random or with different effects on different units.

Ironbone
05-09-2013, 21:53
I may not sound very orky now, but I've never liked the Waaagh rule. Think it's to standardised, too limited. I've always wanted something crazy, more spectacular. It doesn't necessarily have to be awesome from a gaming perspective. But maybe more random or with different effects on different units.
Well, codex already have something kinda like this, with dakkajet beeing extra dakka when waaaagh is calles. I wont be supised if in new codex waaagh will give diffrent benefits to diffrent units, like re-roll number of shots on lootas :p.

Theocracity
05-09-2013, 21:57
I may not sound very orky now, but I've never liked the Waaagh rule. Think it's to standardised, too limited. I've always wanted something crazy, more spectacular. It doesn't necessarily have to be awesome from a gaming perspective. But maybe more random or with different effects on different units.

I totally expect some sort of change to the Waaagh! rule - its current form is a bad combination of not particularly useful, tactically flat, and not very interesting / fun. If its revamped I completely expect it to be more ambitious somehow - though that doesn't garauntee utility.

Scammel
05-09-2013, 22:00
'Choppy' units re-roll charge distances. 'Shooty' units double their shots. All Ork units are assigned one of the above in their 'dex entry.

Thoume
05-09-2013, 23:40
'Choppy' units re-roll charge distances. 'Shooty' units double their shots. All Ork units are assigned one of the above in their 'dex entry.

I see, a bit like 'nids instinctive behaviours. Without making duplicate entries for the different boyz mob load outs like in 3rd, they'd start with slugga+choppa and the 'Waaagh! Choppa' rule (re-roll charge distances during Waaagh), then the option to replace them for shootas and gain 'Waaagh! Dakka' (double shots during Waaagh). Something like that anyway...?!

misterboff
06-09-2013, 08:05
Personally, I'll play Orks whatever the rules so I'm more concerned about models.

I agree with most that the following seem highly likely:
# plastic Meganobz
# plastic Buggies
# plastic Koptaz

I think the following are sensible ideas:
# plastic Flash Gitz dual kit (with the rumoured tellyporta unit maybe)
# plastic tank kit (between Truk and Battlewagon in size - like
a gun Truk or big Trakk)
# plastic Looted Wagon sprue (like the Deff Roller sprue, but with a lot more on it)
# plastic characters, including the Painboss from IA8 as a new HQ

I'd like to see the following, but having existing models I'm not too hopeful:
# plastic Big Guns
# plastic Kommando/Tankbusta dual kit

Rick Blaine
06-09-2013, 11:12
If Marines can drop a point and get an option for 6+ FNP for free, and this is considered a weak chapter trait, I really don't see why Orks shouldn't get the same.

Blempoll
06-09-2013, 12:41
If Marines can drop a point and get an option for 6+ FNP for free, and this is considered a weak chapter trait, I really don't see why Orks shouldn't get the same.

you are forgetting vehicles not dying..

an av 14 4 hp assault vehicle that can regain hp for free

daveNYC
06-09-2013, 12:42
When people say tellyporter unit, are we talking about a bunch of Orks with personal tellyporters on them? Because that's not only pretty dicey based on fluff (Ork tellyporters pretty flaky and pretty gargantuan) and are stepping right on the toes of the Warp Spiders (and I guess that GK unit, but freaking the Warp Spiders were there first).

Mr_Rose
06-09-2013, 13:05
I think it might be technically feasible to actually have a war buggy/trakk squadron kit that combines the three small hulls of the buggies into one larger hull. I'm just not sure a) how likely the design studio is to try it out or b) what exactly the larger hull would be. Gun wagon maybe? Smaller than a battlewagon at least. Maybe a flakkwagon.
I also had the even stranger idea that buggies could make grot artillery (gun crew become riggas and vice versa) if designed correctly too.
Not sure where to go with those.


Anyway. Regarding a hypothetical "big kit" I'm not sure where GW could take that without stepping on FW's delicate resin toes; they already have bigger dreads, squigs, a bigger deffkopta, super tanks, grot gubbinz all over… basically FW have stolen a large march, creatively speaking, from the main studio when it comes to orky stuff. They'd have to go way back for "new" old ideas like the weirdboy tower or come up with something out of left field. That plus all the not-yet-plastic stuff they could be converting to plastic with a fourth kit makes me think there simply won't be a big stompy thing this time.

Chivs
06-09-2013, 13:09
Most important Wish:
I don't want Klan rules back. Klans are a colour scheme, and can guide a player in which units they could select. They're completely optional, and non-restrictive. I don't need special rules to tell me I'm playing Blood Axes; my colour scheme, and taking (1 of each) Stormboyz, Kommandoes and a Looted Leman Russ does that. They don't need gimmicky special rules, and it would be hard to balance each klan anyway; even something as basic as allowing 1 of a particular unit to be a troops choice as, due to the concept of scoring units, some will simply be better than others.

Other, non kit wise:

Bring back Boarboyz, or some form of cavalry unit. I can only think of 4 in all of 40k (Rough Riders, Daemonettes on Steeds, Blood crushers, and Thunderwolves) and Orks are an army this unit belongs to. Having the option doesn't make it compulsory, and they don't need to replace bikes outright, and would be fitting in a lot of armies.

Tweak Mob Rule so that you don't take the penalties to leadership for losing models in an assault. It's irritating if you start with 11 Orks (Fearless), lose by 3 models, and you're now testing at Leadership 5 despite having 8 Orks left. Orks are an army that are likely to lose a number of models each turn. Losing 6 models per Terminator killed still puts us ahead point for point, but we get heavily penalised for it, and with such a low initiative often get wiped out as soon as things go badly.

Improve Looted Wagons to allow higher AV values, and to represent as closely as possible the Leman Russes, Vindicators, Land Raiders or Hammerheads that have been Kommandeered. A counts as Battlewagon does cover a lot, but it only goes so far, and a Killcannon is a poor substitute (due to it's short range and high cost) for a battlecannon.

Burnas/Big choppas in regular squads?

Drop Gloryhunters and had Tank Hunter to Tank Bustas.

Personal one: Not to move Lootas to Heavy Support, as then I'll have 4 HS choices and will have to drop something.
In fact, probably most important, to simply tweak our codex and add a couple of new balanced units, and not feel a need for a complete revamp. The Ork codex is still very good, well written and allows people to pick whatever units they want to build their army how they'd like to (tied with the previous Eldar Codex as the best GW have done on this last front). Don't **** it up GW!

DoctorTom
06-09-2013, 19:41
I also had the even stranger idea that buggies could make grot artillery (gun crew become riggas and vice versa) if designed correctly too.
Not sure where to go with those.

They could always go with grot vehicles (not necessarily the grot tanks, but raid some of the Gorkamorka Rebel Grot stuff).


Anyway. Regarding a hypothetical "big kit" I'm not sure where GW could take that without stepping on FW's delicate resin toes; they already have bigger dreads, squigs, a bigger deffkopta, super tanks, grot gubbinz all over… basically FW have stolen a large march, creatively speaking, from the main studio when it comes to orky stuff. They'd have to go way back for "new" old ideas like the weirdboy tower or come up with something out of left field. That plus all the not-yet-plastic stuff they could be converting to plastic with a fourth kit makes me think there simply won't be a big stompy thing this time.

I'd suspect we might get a bigger trakk vehicle despite the big trakk at Forgeworld. Actually, given they've gone to hull points now rather than structure points, they could always take something like the Minelayer or the Pulsa Rokkit (or do a scaled down version of the pulsa rokkit) and put it into the regular 40k game now

As for kits, we might get a unit of Cyborks if they're looking to get different models out - they might even make these their own unit type in order to justify a new box set.

Inquisitor Kallus
06-09-2013, 20:11
Necrons have RP.. nids will get something soon and Daemons are 5++

orks get t4 and next to no save..

they dont care if they live or die, just as long as they kill something.

they are more skilled in CC than Wyches, yet they get a benefit.. marines **** themselves when they see orks in the fluff, yet have ATSKNF despite orks not knowing what fear is.

Mary-sue-ism would be giving them t5 5++ and 4/5++ FnP.

All he was wishlisting was an invuln against overwatch. Not an invuln in CC or other shooting attacks.. just something that will let them to actually reach combat..

Marines scared of Orks in the fluff? No, you are wrong. Orks are not more skilled in combat than Wyches, they are more brutal, tough and savage. Streetfighting thugs or football hooligans compared to the martial artists of the eldar. An invulnerable save makes no sense. A FNP save does though.

Blempoll
06-09-2013, 21:59
Marines scared of Orks in the fluff?

Tell that to Crimson Fists..

I said that if you went the mary sue route they would have an inv AND FnP

the1stpip
07-09-2013, 00:43
Some of the more interesting 2nd ed ideas, such as Traktor kannons (AA type guns) and Bubble Chukkers.

I would not be surprised to see a Looted Wagon kit. What I would like to see is different hull options (Rhino, Russ, Land Raider) with so many big gun and little gun options. Then the big guns options would include the weirder tech that I have already mentioned. Little guns would be big shootas, etc.

Joewrightgm
07-09-2013, 14:45
I'd like to see a looted wagon kit; rhino hull along with a looted wagon bits frame.

Mainly because I love the looted tank from dawn of war 2, if they made something like that, that'd be awesome!

Also, it'd be cool if they gave the 'mine pig' a kit; that way orks would have a proper skimmer transport :)

chesh
07-09-2013, 16:15
I have some Orks from the 5th Edition box set, when the new book comes out I could be very tempted to start an Ork army with some very tempting new bits.

Haravikk
07-09-2013, 18:28
I don't want Klan rules back.
They could it as an upgrade option for your Warlord; pick a Klan to unlock an appropriate unit type as Troops and gain some kind of bonus to that, otherwise you just save the points to mix and match as normal? Either that or give certain units the option of upgrading to be from a particular Klan to gain a bonus? I dunno, I don't think they should ditch the concept, it'd be nice to see something, just so long as they give you a good degree of freedom.


I think a key thing for me is a fun new Waaagh!!! mechanic, something such as units gaining bonuses from sheer size and/or other nearby units, and synergy with effects from characters. So the army isn't so much about individual choices, though of course you should be free to pick whatever you want for the most part, but a key strategy will be keeping the Waaagh!!! effect going as long as possible (or even increasing it if you can). Dunno what the actual effects should be exactly, but probably something to make units Stubborn and/or Fearless, maybe Hammer of Wrath if they gain enough momentum? I dunno, but something that really ties the army together. Lots of options for either looted stuff or custom made gear that's highly unreliable (but potentially powerful).

Ironbone
07-09-2013, 19:22
maybe Hammer of Wrath if they gain enough momentum
you mean something like WFB ogre charge ? Thats kind of not so bad idea :p .

Mr_Rose
07-09-2013, 19:32
Actually, if Choppas just gave HoW all around, and WAAAAGH!-ing gave bonus Strength to both HoW and regular CC attacks, that would be pretty neat.

Or they could go back to the greendex rule and just double their base Initiative on the charge.

TheBearminator
10-09-2013, 10:33
I miss the old choppa rule that modified the opponents saves to 4+. Don't think they'll go back to that though. But I think slugga boyz need a little something to make them on par with shoota boyz.

Chivs
10-09-2013, 15:15
They could it as an upgrade option for your Warlord; pick a Klan to unlock an appropriate unit type as Troops and gain some kind of bonus to that, otherwise you just save the points to mix and match as normal? Either that or give certain units the option of upgrading to be from a particular Klan to gain a bonus?
I don't think it can be balanced well enough. Some units will benefit far more than others. Nobz are a solid unit that are going to pile into where the fighting is thickest, and will probably be clawing over objectives; they're an ideal unit to make into a troops choice. Should they be the Goff choice? Isn't that unfair on the other klans?
Kommandos (Blood Axe unit) don't have anywhere near the staying power to really benefit from being made troops. I think they'd only be claiming an objective if they reached it in the final turn; I don't think they could keep one.
Lootas (Deathskulls) camping on objectives becomes almost too good, particularly if you can surround it with an Aegis line or similar.

I just envision a situation where the klan benefits aren't equal, and people pick the greatest benefit rather than the klan they like. Given a choice between a single Nobz mob as a scoring unit, and a Kommandos mob as a scoring unit, I would choose Nobz every single time. Having a nobz mob in any Klan is fluffy, and why shouldn't they be able to claim an objective? But I'd be very irritated if my paint scheme and other unit selection were dictating whether I could take that option or not. I either lose the option, or take the Goff ability in my Blood Axe warband, and neither sit right with me.

I could cope with every boss choosing a klan (for free, and include No klan as an option) and then they get to make either a Nobz, Meganobz or one of their Klan unit a Scoring Unit, but I think this is needlessly complicated and again will be too hard to balance.

Now if we lose the concept of Scoring unit, the system becomes much more feasible!


I dunno, I don't think they should ditch the concept, it'd be nice to see something, just so long as they give you a good degree of freedom.

I don't think the Klanz concept has been lost. It's fine how it is. It just doesn't need to have any influence in the game beyond what a player chooses to put into it. Orks are the most individual of all the 40k armies. Besides having a good core of Boyz, any klan is free to take any unit they want. Evil Sunz mobs can exist without bikes; Bad Moons can exist without MegaNobz and Flashgits. We don't need to start dictating that Klans must/should take particular units; leave that to the players to decide for themselves.

Joewrightgm
14-09-2013, 18:59
Reading some of the recent timeline stuff, GW has made a big deal about 'The Beast', an ork the lead the largest waaagh! Ever seen, back in like M33-32?

Makes me curious if this will be expanded on at all.

Ironbone
15-09-2013, 00:02
Doubtfuly. Most of fluff is concentrated in 41 milenium. Some references may be in codex, but I do not think whether the full story be inclouded.

burni
15-09-2013, 10:17
I know Boar Boyz are liked by a lot but I don't think they fit with the 'ork self sustaining colony' fluff. Where do the boars come from?

Still, the WFB Boar Boyz are the best looking cav models GW makes IMHO, so I can live with cyboar models in the same style :)

Model wise I'd like to see:
War buggy/War trak
Deffkopta with all options
MANZ/maybe new unit
Kommandoz/Tank Hunters

That's 4 kits with only 1 new unit so it not going to happen. If they do make a new big 'wow' kit though, I like it to be something the Meks made rather that a Sqiggoth or similar.

Mr_Rose
15-09-2013, 10:22
Boar-squigs. Done.
Then they can have claws instead of hooves and spiked tails and generally be as metal as the sculptors want.

Darnok
15-09-2013, 11:09
I know Boar Boyz are liked by a lot but I don't think they fit with the 'ork self sustaining colony' fluff. Where do the boars come from?

There is always an ecosystem other than just the Orks. And GW seems to revive a lot of the concepts from the 90s in the current round of releases - Boarboyz would fit that very well.

Also: never forget that GW does not really care for sensible reasons. They do models because GW thinks they are cool. Wether Boarboyz make that cut? I don't know...

Latro_
15-09-2013, 12:50
I'd like to see a focus back to the klan system, klans have been kinda tagged on as a different colour scheme for the last couple of books really. There used to be a real depth of fluff to the various ork klans and its what got me into them so many years back.

TheBearminator
15-09-2013, 13:11
I'd like to see a focus back to the klan system, klans have been kinda tagged on as a different colour scheme for the last couple of books really. There used to be a real depth of fluff to the various ork klans and its what got me into them so many years back.

I think there are better chance for klans now than ever, with the new supplement trend. Don't let us down now GW, I know you're reading this.

Sidenote: Do you guys believe the orks will get to keep both buggies and wartraks? My guess would be no. I really hope to see something Taurus like or an updated buggy gocart thingy. Never been a fan of the traks, not even when I painted them ten years ago.

Mozzamanx
15-09-2013, 13:26
- The balance between Sluggas and Shootas needs to be addressed. I would do this by tying Furious Charge into the Choppa and thus remove it from Shootas. Alternatively, keep FC for all but Choppas grant Rage/Hammer of Wrath. In addition, perhaps Sluggas could recieve a Nob and/or Stikkbommz 'for free' as part of the basic 10-man cost. However it is resolved I believe both units should cost the same amount.
- On this subject, would be cool to see Flash Gitz as the character upgrade for Shootas while Sluggas keep the Nobz. Shootas could then have a selection of Dakkaguns, Deffguns etc with a Snazzgun character, while the Sluggas would have Burnaz, melee upgrades and the Klawnobz.

- Altering the Waaagh! such that all units recieve a unique power upon activation. Similar to how each Grey Knight squad has a different psychic power or Tyranids will either Feed or Lurk, each Ork squad would behave differently when the Waaagh! is called.
All non-fleeing units gain Fearless and Fleet for the turn. In addition, each unit recieves a special Waaagh! activation:
Shootas- Dakkastorm. All multi-shot weaponry gains 'Ignore Cover' for the turn
Sluggas- Green Tide. Any casualties inflicted by enemy Overwatch are resolved at the end of an assault, after Morale checks. This means that 'killed' models still resolve all their attacks.
Warboss- Gains Rampage/Invul save/something beefy.
These could then be extended to all units within the Codex in whatever way is appropriate.

- Introduction of Squiggoths and either Boar or Squig cavalry. Furthermore I would change the Grot squads to something more like the Dark Eldar beastmasters, where you simply buy 1-3 Runtherds. Each Runtherd would then unlock either Grots, Squigs or Snotlings and the unit would fight as a weird mishmash of scum.
- Introduction of 2 new vehicle squadrons in the Heavy slot, in both a 'Light' and 'Medium' armour variation. These would then be extremely open to customisation and hopefully reflect all the varieties of looted tanks that an Ork army might possess. This would then tie-in with 'looted' simply becoming a vehicle upgrade, granting some unique bonus in exchange for a loss of reliability.

- Klan Tags as a very cheap, simple upgrade to your Warlord only. Kinda like Chaos Marks, and not at all tied into the Warlord trait. For example, Goff Tags might grant +1 WS and move Skarboyz/Nobz to Troops in exchange for forcing the Warboss to accept challenges. Alternatively, Bad Moon might grant +1BS provided that he has at least 40pts of upgrades on top of his base cost.

- Meks can upgrade to a Specialist in the same way that Crypteks become harbingers. Examples like the 'Mekaniak', who grants better repair rolls, access to a Meks own custom vehicle and perhaps even the ability to loot enemy vehicles that have been hullpointed. Alternatively, go for the Tellyshock route and unlock Teleportation upgrades for your Boyz and a nice selection of experimental weaponry. Finally, the Prodigy who specialises in forcefield or grav-technology and provides the Pulsa rokkit.


There's a lot of ways I would like to see the Codex go but this is a small chunk of my preferred bits.

Flame Boy
15-09-2013, 13:42
I think there are better chance for klans now than ever, with the new supplement trend. Don't let us down now GW, I know you're reading this.

Sidenote: Do you guys believe the orks will get to keep both buggies and wartraks? My guess would be no. I really hope to see something Taurus like or an updated buggy gocart thingy. Never been a fan of the traks, not even when I painted them ten years ago.

I hope they just make the buggy/trak into the same unit, even if they keep the tracked propulsion as an upgrade. It's pretty arbitrary that a buggy cannot be armed with a skorcha, but a wartrak can. It just seems to be a rule based on the models, rather than any practical reason.

TheBearminator
15-09-2013, 15:04
I like the idea of a shooty nob/flash git for shoota boy squad.

Another thing I'd like to see is removal of 0-1 limitations of 'Ard boyz. I would like to be able to make a semi elite Ork army of 'Ard boyz or Scar boyz, without using nobs (who really should be more rare, right?). Again limitations to 'Ard boyz are only there cause that's how the plastic kits look. I really hate when GW limits players choices and creativity for such reasons.

DoctorTom
15-09-2013, 23:56
Sidenote: Do you guys believe the orks will get to keep both buggies and wartraks? My guess would be no. I really hope to see something Taurus like or an updated buggy gocart thingy. Never been a fan of the traks, not even when I painted them ten years ago.

I think they'll keep wartraks, even if they end up being listed as a different unit from warbuggies instead of including a trakk option. I think we'll see trakks and buggies being new models -maybe the same box set with different wheel options, maybe different boxes with different options for each and different weapon choices. A buggy that can hold 5 Orks might be a new way to get Burna Boyz, or an IC, around the battlefield quickly (since I doubt we'll get the Warkopta in the GW book).

ugavine
16-09-2013, 12:02
Personally I have only one wish for the Orks.... GW... LEAVE THEM ALONE!

Seriously, I just have this bad feeling GW are going to screw them up. I'm having lots of fun with the Orks right now and still beating the newer armies and don't want them nerfed further.

Latro_
16-09-2013, 12:50
On a realistic special rules note i think you can assume:

Special Wargear items that have a statline and a special rule under them, this seems to be a common trait of new books.

Concussive/strikedown will likely be in there a lot, maybe even a standard for choppas.

Zaap guns will likely have blind and lance

I'd expect weirdboyz to be level 0, until you put him in a unit and then the unit gains brotherhood of psykers with a level equal to the boyz / 10 in the unit.

Feel no pain will play heavily, not just from docs.

I see bioniks moving to it will not die like iron hands and a fnp save

Can see normal boyz charging to have hammer of wrath (thats some wish listing :D)

Can see Waaaarrrghhh giving rage

Skorchas prob have torrent


Likely Nerfbat/buffs:

Nerf bat:
Lootas - prob pts increase
Shoota boyz prob +1pt for a shoota
Defrolla prob go up

Buffs:
Flash gitz - total reworking i bet, prime candidate for new kit
Kommandos
Storm boyz - pts reduction
nobs - pts reduction
burna boyz - prob get a transport
warbikes - pts reduction

Joewrightgm
16-09-2013, 14:47
I'm curious what the ork 'relic' war gear will look like, it'd have to be moderately amusing/ brutal I'd imagine

Darnok
16-09-2013, 14:52
Personally I have only one wish for the Orks.... GW... LEAVE THEM ALONE!

Seriously, I just have this bad feeling GW are going to screw them up. I'm having lots of fun with the Orks right now and still beating the newer armies and don't want them nerfed further.

I think your fear is not at all backed up by facts. All the recent codizes got better. Yes, that includes CSM - they got a bit less bland, and arguably much more competetive. Daemons, DA, Eldar, Tau, now SM: they all got quite balanced books, none of them got "weak". Yes, all of those books have their turds, but much less so than before - and you can't expect a perfect codex anyway. And while taste is subjective, they all got many new models, most of them pretty impressive.

So while I would not expect perfection - that way depression waits - there is every reason to look forward to an at least solid codex accompanied by nice to awesome models.

Grand Master Raziel
16-09-2013, 14:58
Personally, I think the standard Ork Boyz mob is going to need a rethink. Previously, it was balanced with No Retreat in mind. I ran numbers on a mob of 30 Boyz vs a squad of 10 Khorne Berserkers (about the same points at the time), and who won basically came down to who got the charge. But, the Zerks won when the charged because the Boyz took No Retreat casualties. That's a major change in the balance needs to get addressed.

Lootas really, really need to be moved to Heavy Support. Elites are not an appropriate slot for them.

Another thing's going to need to be rebalanced: Biker Nobz. Now that Bikes grant an unconditional increase to Toughness, Biker Nobz got a huge boost in durability, and they were already one of the hardest units in the game when properly kitted up. The only thing I can think of without going against the core rules is for the Bike upgrade to go up on points a lot. Either that, or they need to come with some downside that mitigates the humungous increase in durability a multi-wound model gets when it goes from T4 to T5.

Latro_
16-09-2013, 16:09
Personally, I think the standard Ork Boyz mob is going to need a rethink. Previously, it was balanced with No Retreat in mind. I ran numbers on a mob of 30 Boyz vs a squad of 10 Khorne Berserkers (about the same points at the time), and who won basically came down to who got the charge. But, the Zerks won when the charged because the Boyz took No Retreat casualties. That's a major change in the balance needs to get addressed.


swings and roundabouts, they also lost 4+ cover from cover/units(grots)
overwatch happened
removing from the front = scared nob at back and shooty casualties really hurt charge range on a big unit like this
challenges hurt PK nobs
random assault distances = lower assualt overall

i feel your pain about berzerks but they suffer from the same thing so to use them as a benchmark to nef boyz is unwarranted imo cus all you'v proved is that the new zerks suck...

Nym
16-09-2013, 17:12
Another thing's going to need to be rebalanced: Biker Nobz.
I get your point about true toughness, but... No. Nob Bikers are already overcosted by 5-10pts, and you want them to get a point increase ? 5th edition wound allocation is gone you know, Nob Bikers are but a shadow of their former selves.

They went from having a 3+ cover save followed by a 4+ FnP to a 4+ cover save and 5+ FnP. That made them weaker against small arms fire (twice weaker actually), while true T5 made them stronger against anti-tank weapons. It's a loss for a gain.

Also, *all* bikes now get a 5+ cover save for free while Ork Bikes pay premium for their 4+ cover save.

Nobz must go down in cost to about 15pts and the Bike to 20 (like a Space Marine Bike). Even then, they would still pale in comparison to Necron Wraiths who get a 3++ save while also getting S6, Rending, Fearless (Nobz are ld7 for the record) and ignore all kinds of terrain.

shaso_iceborn
16-09-2013, 22:24
I would simply like orks to get

6+ FnP,
Improved Waaagh rules (like the HoW idea)
Boys mobs, slugga and shoota boys, to be rolled together similar to chaos marines where they could use the shootas on the way in and then slugga and choppa in combat

and alot of the above sounds great.

MajorWesJanson
17-09-2013, 01:19
What I would do for basic boyz- 5 points, drop to 1 attack base, bump to S4.Remove furious charge add 6+ FNP. 1 point upgrade for either shoota OR stickbombs, not both. May upgrade to 'ard boyz for 3 points per model to have 4+ armor, may upgrade to Skar boyz for 4 points per model to have +1 WS and LD.

Switch Lootas to HS, Flash Gitz to be Elites.

Buggies as fast flimsy vehicles (say 25 points base, plus weapons) with 2 HP, Fast, take dangerous terrain on a 1 or 2.
Trakks slower but more durable.

Gun Trukk options- may remove passenger capacity for a kannon, big zappa, lobba, or flakka-dakka gun.

I love the idea of Waaagh being different for each unit as their racial ability- slugga boyz gain fearless, fleet, and gain Furious Charge hits when it is called. Shoota boyz gain fearless and gain an extra shot. Lootas gain tank hunter or skyfire for the turn. Nobz gain fleet and hammer of wrath. things like that.

DoctorTom
17-09-2013, 17:20
One thing I'd like to see that I know they won't do is to go back to the old 3rd edition looted vehicle rules where you actually took the vehicle from another codex at that point cost and changed the BS to 2.

TheBearminator
17-09-2013, 20:22
Lootas really, really need to be moved to Heavy Support. Elites are not an appropriate slot for them.


I like your name Raziel. :) However I'd like to know why you want lootas to be a heavy choice. Should they be heavy because they're shooty and slow? Then I guess you don't like eldar jetbikes to be in the troop section, since they're actually the fastest unit in the game and therefore should be a fast choice?


One thing I'd like to see that I know they won't do is to go back to the old 3rd edition looted vehicle rules where you actually took the vehicle from another codex at that point cost and changed the BS to 2.

Word! Exactly this. And let them loot other vehicles than imperial. Rewrite the "don't press dat" rule in some way. It just is no fun.

Darnok
17-09-2013, 20:29
Lootas are a (almost) stationary, extremely shooty unit - they just scream "heavy support". I have no idea how they ended up in the Elite section to begin with. Their place is in the HS section - and the FW list (in IA:8) has already put them there. I hope the next Ork codex does the same.

Scammel
17-09-2013, 20:40
What I would do for basic boyz- 5 points, drop to 1 attack base, bump to S4.Remove furious charge add 6+ FNP.

I actually really like the 2 attacks base. It helps bring to the forefront just how dangerous the bog-standard Ork is, even against the likes of, say, 'Nid foot troops. Start taking away that combat potential and I think you run the risk of them becoming pretty mundane poor-but-cheap guys.

Ironbone
17-09-2013, 20:41
Troops are units who form bulk of army/warband/warhost. Bikes in genral fit FA, but some armies can ( fluffwise ) field lots of them, so they appear in TR as well. Slow and shooty units generaly should stay in HS.

Thrax
18-09-2013, 01:49
I actually really like the 2 attacks base. It helps bring to the forefront just how dangerous the bog-standard Ork is, even against the likes of, say, 'Nid foot troops. Start taking away that combat potential and I think you run the risk of them becoming pretty mundane poor-but-cheap guys.

We use a fan dex that does take away an attack from basic boys but ups their basic strength to 4. They also re-roll 1's To Hit. It makes them more dangerous on the charge but more vulnerable when getting charged. I like it.

KR3LL
18-09-2013, 02:22
Another thing's going to need to be rebalanced: Biker Nobz. Now that Bikes grant an unconditional increase to Toughness, Biker Nobz got a huge boost in durability, and they were already one of the hardest units in the game when properly kitted up. The only thing I can think of without going against the core rules is for the Bike upgrade to go up on points a lot. Either that, or they need to come with some downside that mitigates the humungous increase in durability a multi-wound model gets when it goes from T4 to T5.

Nob bikers are so much weaker now. Trust me...the true T5 is not a good trade off for the loss of wound allocation, FNP 4+ to 5+, Cover from 3+ to 4+.

Voss
18-09-2013, 04:05
Nob bikers are so much weaker now. Trust me...the true T5 is not a good trade off for the loss of wound allocation, FNP 4+ to 5+, Cover from 3+ to 4+.
What was the 3+ cover from? The bike entry in the codex specifically says 4+.


Though I agree, they are a long way from the bee's knees at this point.



SM Chapter tactics also make me hope for Clan rules built into the codex itself. Not sure on all of them, but Goffs would obviously be CC-oriented, deff skulls could involve some sort of reroll or 6+ invulnerable save (lucky warpaint), evil sunz could get free red paint jobs and/or riggers, etc. There are all sorts of little things that could work well.

KR3LL
18-09-2013, 05:00
What was the 3+ cover from? The bike entry in the codex specifically says 4+.



In 5th edition they could turbo boost for a +1 cover (if I remember correctly)

Ironbone
18-09-2013, 08:09
You remember wrong. In 5th ed, turbo grants you flat 3+ cover :D. Now Turbo grants +1 to jinx save, so 4+ normaly, 3+ with skiled rider ( or 2+ if combined with stealth, shroud or WS chapter tactics ). Much needed change, but in counterbalance, all bikes have 5+ cover for any move. Orkz are even better, because they have flat 4+ cover, even if they dont move an inch, and can use it event againts "ignore jinx" weapons ( like grim reaper lunchers or hydra autocannons ).

I would like to see that idiotism removed from game. With proper price drop of course.


Nob bikers are so much weaker now. Trust me...the true T5 is not a good trade off for the loss of wound allocation, FNP 4+ to 5+, Cover from 3+ to 4+.
Indeed is not good tradeoff. Its far better than good :p. True T5 removed one of biggest weaknesses of motonobs - instant killing by str8+, wich is encountered quite common in system ( psi dreds, missile lunhcers, long fangs, battle cannons, lascannons etc ). Now, instant ( and thus, to deny FnP ) reqires str 10 wich is quite a Rarity. Also bike make warboss T6, makeing him impossible to instant kill by str alone. He can tank A LOT of damage for unit.

Motonobs are weaker now, but thats a good thing, because the were a bit IMBA in 5th ( wich i see, orkz players fail to see ).

Nym
18-09-2013, 09:49
I would like to see that idiotism removed from game. With proper price drop of course.
Daemon weapons give too many attacks, I would like that idiotism removed from the game. Oh also, Tau Markerlights remove cover, this is unacceptable, please remove this from the game. And while you're at it, I'd like to see the Mindshackle Scarabs idiotism removed from the game too. And maybe you could remove yourself from these boards ?


He can tank A LOT of damage for unit.
The Warboss on Bike can tank *nothing*. Due to majority toughness, he's considered T5 and will die to mass small arms fire like any other Nob. All he can do is soak a few S10 shots, which are incredibly rare anyway.

As I said before (not that anyone cares), Nob Bikers are actually TWICE weaker against wound saturation. Ok, they can tank S8 and S9 better, but while it took 324 bolter shots or equivalent to take 6 Nob Bikers down in 5th edition, it only takes 162 now.


Motonobs are weaker now, but thats a good thing, because the were a bit IMBA in 5th ( wich i see, orkz players fail to see ).
No one ever denied their power in 5th edition. We're just saying that they're *way* weaker now. We're talking 400pts for 6, it's basically 1.5x the price tag of a Daemon Prince, Dreadknight or Bloodthirster, all of which will destroy a whole squad of Nob Bikers in a single game turn. They're also Ld7 without a Warboss (5 and a Warboss cost 500pts btw... and are still only an Ld9 unit that the above monstrous creatures will sweep in a turn).

I think you're the one who fails to see what 400 or 500pts mean in this game.

Ironbone
18-09-2013, 11:09
And maybe you could remove yourself from these boards ?
Imposiburu ;). I've got my opinions on the subject to share, and i will post them :D. If people find them controvesial, pity. I just saying how things look from my perspective.


Daemon weapons give too many attacks, I would like that idiotism removed from the game. Oh also, Tau Markerlights remove cover, this is unacceptable, please remove this from the game. And while you're at it, I'd like to see the Mindshackle Scarabs idiotism removed from the game too.
Yes, all these things are anoying, and i would like them bo be removed or changed, but let's face the truth - all these will not be changed soon. Orkz are diffrent matter, as we can expect new greenskin codex in relativly short time, so their wrongs can be corrected ( or not, its GW after all ). About DP, MSS or Ml i will rant in time due.


The Warboss on Bike can tank *nothing*. Due to majority toughness, he's considered T5 and will die to mass small arms fire like any other Nob. All he can do is soak a few S10 shots, which are incredibly rare anyway.
Wrong :p.

Think again.

Warboss may have same save as unit, but you can look out also unsaved wounds, and put them on any model in 6", wich means he can tank IK wound by himself, and faild saves from smallers guns can be reliably distibuted among unit nobz, esencialy bringing back 5th ed wound alocation. So in 5+ warboss unit, you still have to indict at least 6 unsaved wounds ( or 8 if you dont mind warboss losing two ) to kill one model ( of your choice !), all you have to do is just pass all look outs :p ( on 2+, its not that hard ).


it only takes 162 now.
Wich still is far more than almost any army can pull, especialy if, thakns to bikes speed and mobility, i doubt that enemy will have more than 3 no-overwacth ocasion during entire game to shoot at them. And not every army have str 4, BS4 basic guns.


We're just saying that they're *way* weaker now. We're talking 400pts for 6, it's basically 1.5x the price tag of a Daemon Prince, Dreadknight or Bloodthirster, all of which will destroy a whole squad of Nob Bikers in a single game turn. They're also Ld7 without a Warboss (5 and a Warboss cost 500pts btw... and are still only an Ld9 unit that the above monstrous creatures will sweep in a turn).

I think you're the one who fails to see what 400 or 500pts mean in this game.
Way weaker form IMBA is still strong :p. I do not deny there are more powerful units, or excelent counters to motonobs, but:
- not every army have them
- IMHO its poor excuse to defend one units A acursed of beeing broken by showing unit B, and saying "he's worse". Even if thats true ( and as i say, i know that such thing exists in WH40K ), it wont make unit A less bad that it is.

Also - points payed for unit matter, but in current sytem, where cost calculation was droped in favour of VP system, it matters less how much unit costs, and more how such units is performing on the battlefield. And my every single experience with motonobs on the battlefield says that they are sill force to reckoned with, almost as much as in 5th, and in some cases, even worse.

Latro_
18-09-2013, 11:18
Lootas are a (almost) stationary, extremely shooty unit - they just scream "heavy support". I have no idea how they ended up in the Elite section to begin with. Their place is in the HS section - and the FW list (in IA:8) has already put them there. I hope the next Ork codex does the same.

I expect ti was to allow deathskull theme players to take lots of looted wagons etc AND lootas

Darnok
18-09-2013, 11:26
I expect ti was to allow deathskull theme players to take lots of looted wagons etc AND lootas

I hope Lootas get their place in the HS section, with Deathskullz klan rules (or some other slot changing rule) giving them the option to be fielded as Elite instead (or even additionally). Makes more sense to me that way.

Nym
18-09-2013, 12:11
Wrong . Think again.
I was about to enter a quote war, but then I read what you said about Look Out Sir! and Wound allocation and realised that you're talking about things you have no clue about (hint : rulebook errata, page 1, bottom left).

Please, before you come to a message board and try to argue with people : read the erratas / FAQ and play the game. Right now it's pretty obvious that you've done neither of those things recently.

totgeboren
18-09-2013, 12:16
Warboss may have same save as unit, but you can look out also unsaved wounds, and put them on any model in 6", wich means he can tank IK wound by himself, and faild saves from smallers guns can be reliably distibuted among unit nobz, esencialy bringing back 5th ed wound alocation. So in 5+ warboss unit, you still have to indict at least 6 unsaved wounds ( or 8 if you dont mind warboss losing two ) to kill one model ( of your choice !), all you have to do is just pass all look outs :p ( on 2+, its not that hard ).

The first FAQ for the rulebook changed this. LoS wounds are allocated to the closest model to the character. So you need to inflict 2 wounds (or 4 if you don't mind your warboss losing two wounds first) to kill one model (the one closest to your warboss).
Not really all that impressive for tanking, as he actually does nothing at all except for possibly soaking some S10 hits.

However, even though Bikernobs have been nerfed by 6ed, the cost of the bike upgrade for the Warboss definitely needs to go up. The speed, guns, cover and suddenly becoming immune to S10 IK is just incredibly good, and not taking a bike now just feels stupid. It would definitely need a price hike for the buffs it brings. On the other hand, a barebone warboss costs way too much for what you get, so he should get a points drop. Standard barebone Nobs should also drop in points.

Ironbone
18-09-2013, 14:31
The first FAQ for the rulebook changed this. LoS wounds are allocated to the closest model to the character. So you need to inflict 2 wounds (or 4 if you don't mind your warboss losing two wounds first) to kill one model (the one closest to your warboss).
Damm, i do not know about this part. So fellow ork player cheated me. I will have nasty suprise for him next time we will play :evilgrin:.

popisdead
18-09-2013, 16:48
Hopefully klan books. More in line with the 3rd Ed ones released in PDF allowing alternate troop choices (cough cough Lootas as troops).

Phil Kelly did a great job on the codex at the time and bringing back more of the character from the Bryan Ansell days is the best direction to go.

Heck re-hire Paul Bonner and Mark Gibbons to do all their art too ;-)

Latro_
18-09-2013, 17:24
Another reason they probably put flash gitz in heavy is that they are basically nobs with snazzy guns and nobs are already in the elite section.

You know i could see flayz gits being an upgraded type of loota or nob, the fluff is not identical but they sit between the two gamewise so it'd be an easy fit

Commissar Davis
18-09-2013, 20:40
Ork Rockerz for the lulz.

But on the more serious side, having some clan rulez would be interesting.

Perhaps have colours matter, like a 6++ for being having a blue paint scheme...

Arnizipal
19-09-2013, 11:53
Keep the discussion friendly guys. I wouldn't want to start handing out Warnings in here...

Arnizipal,

++ The Warseer Moderation Team ++

TheBearminator
19-09-2013, 13:39
Ld 8 for nob units. As I just argued in another thread. They're fantasy black orks except they're even bigger and badder. The ones that stand their ground and laugh while their smaller cousins cousins run away. And they're Ld7 without any chance to get fearless through numbers?

IcedCrow
19-09-2013, 13:48
Isnt Mat Ward writing this book?

If so... lol.

Darnok
19-09-2013, 13:59
Isnt Mat Ward writing this book?

Do you have any source on that? Because MW has been rumoured to write any codex since... well GK at least. I could live very well without pointless whining about a rumour based on fear and nothing else...

IcedCrow
19-09-2013, 14:11
I've heard it from a few people now. I am not sure who writes what anymore, as I've stopped caring but it is something that has been rolled across my screen a good dozen times this week already.

This very topic is going on in my group's FB. I don't think there is any 100% concrete proof until you actually see the credits for yourself.

Theocracity
19-09-2013, 14:39
Ld 8 for nob units. As I just argued in another thread. They're fantasy black orks except they're even bigger and badder. The ones that stand their ground and laugh while their smaller cousins cousins run away. And they're Ld7 without any chance to get fearless through numbers?

Nobs are not the equivalent of Black Orcs. Black Orcs are an organized, militant, and disciplined faction / subspecies. Nobs are just one of the boyz that survived and got bigga. That doesn't mean they can't have good leadership if it balances better, but black orcs have nothing to do with it.

Despite superficial similarities, there isn't actually much that maps between Fantasy and 40K greenskins. That's one reason I'm skeptical of wishlists that include boar boyz - boars are a fantasy concept that doesn't fit well with 40K Orks. Where would the boars come from? They're not a variant of the greenskin, and while they can naturally exist in a Fantasy world there's no reason why boars would be on every planet that Orks populated.

Darnok
19-09-2013, 14:43
That's one reason I'm skeptical of wishlists that include boar boyz - boars are a fantasy concept that doesn't fit well with 40K Orks. Where would the boars come from? They're not a variant of the greenskin, and while they can naturally exist in a Fantasy world there's no reason why boars would be on every planet that Orks populated.

Boarboyz exist in the area of "old concepts that GW might revive because they think it makes for cool models". The background for those boars would be... well, lots of handwaving most likely. GW would find a reason. The models are what drives the thing though.

Bloodknight
19-09-2013, 15:02
Where would the boars come from? They're not a variant of the greenskin

Boarsquigs, man, Boarsquigs. (maybe with another name...)

Both tasty and angry as hell.

I used to like the Snakebite boarboyz you could buy in 2nd edition. Particularly the modified Cyboars.

Theocracity
19-09-2013, 17:30
Boarboyz exist in the area of "old concepts that GW might revive because they think it makes for cool models". The background for those boars would be... well, lots of handwaving most likely. GW would find a reason. The models are what drives the thing though.

Oh, definitely. If a modeler at GW wants to do 40K boars, they'll be in there - that's totally their call, and they can come up with any potential reason for why it makes sense. But in the context of my preferences it's an unnessecary stretch to make them similar to Fantasy orcs, when there's really no need for that - the two groups are already pretty distinct, so why jump through hoops to make them similar?

That is, of course, just my opinion though.

As far as Snakebites go, I find Squigs to be infinitely more amusing that boars. Some more variants of Squig would not go awry in my book.

Arnizipal
19-09-2013, 18:42
Nobs are not the equivalent of Black Orcs. Black Orcs are an organized, militant, and disciplined faction / subspecies. Nobs are just one of the boyz that survived and got bigga. That doesn't mean they can't have good leadership if it balances better, but black orcs have nothing to do with it.
I always figured Nobs were the 40K equivalent of Big'Unz. Just bigger, stronger (but still regular) Orcs.
Big'Unz also have Ld7, just like the regular boyz.
Black Orcs, on the other hand are an entirely different subspecies.

Mr_Rose
19-09-2013, 19:03
Nah, skarboyz/'ardboyz are 40k big'uns, Nobs are unit champions/Bosses. There simply isn't a direct analogue for black orcs in 40k, largely because there's no chaos dwarfs to breed them.

Since I'm here though, I'd like to wish for more grot artillery types. Specifically the return of stuff like buzzer squig catapults, pulsa rokkits, lifta-droppas and the like. Pulsa rokkits alone would be a most excellent vehicle for the strikedown rule to come to prominence. And the old ball'n'chain kannon round.

Darnok
19-09-2013, 19:12
Since I'm here though, I'd like to wish for more grot artillery types. Specifically the return of stuff like buzzer squig catapults, pulsa rokkits, lifta-droppas and the like. Pulsa rokkits alone would be a most excellent vehicle for the strikedown rule to come to prominence. And the old ball'n'chain kannon round.

Excellent suggestions! :yes:

Both Pulsa Rokkit and Liftadroppa are already back in the game. Both are available on Apoc units, and the Liftadroppa can be fielded in normal games of 40K via the IA:8 list. I could even see them sharing a dual kit, with the "tube" section of the rocket being the shared part, and different front parts for either weapon.

Nym
19-09-2013, 19:22
A Grot Artillery pack à la Imperial Guard Heavy Weapons Teams would truly be an amazing thing, especially if it came with the bitz to make any of the guns.

DoctorTom
19-09-2013, 19:35
I'd also be for the lifta droppa making it into the 40k codex. The one unit that I expect to make its way over to the main codex though is the flakk gun, at least as part of a vehicle if not also sold separately to be a gun emplacement.

Nymie_the_Pooh
19-09-2013, 20:42
I would like to see what we currently have with more Grots and Squigs along with some tweaking. Forge world has some fun Grot and Squig stuff, but there are still many that don't want Forge World in their games. Maybe some reworking of rules on some of the lesser used units like Tankbustas and Flash Gitz along with a couple more plastic kits. I think the FAQ has helped these units, but they are probably the two that could use a retooling. Of course some point shuffling. I might be alone in this, but I feel the basic Boy statline for the cost is fine as is. I'd also like to be able to take an army of Ork bikers without having to take a unique character or the Nob variety. Heck, I'd like to see another Troops option or split the Boyz into two Troops entries with greater variety available between the two units than the options they have right now. Maybe the Slugga Boyz would have access to scorchas where the Shoota Boyz might have some sort of small blast weapon option and be lead by a Flash Gitz instead of a regular Nob. Then again, I like more options in general.

Speaking of options, I would love for Looted Wagons to go to a template of rules to tack onto vehicles from other armies again. Make it to where flyers and skimmers of all types become wheeled/tracked with Don't Press Dat! tacked on for a slightly increased price over the original vehicle and it could be lots of fun.

I love my Ork codex. I play a little of everything and everything in there has its place. I'd greatly enjoy some more options for deep striking, but I have allies for that if I want to use them. Ork style Crysis suits fighting beside Gretchin armed with pulse weapons makes for a decent allied force. Heck, I'll ally Space Marines sometimes and use Drop Pods to make certain no element of the Space Marine ever needs to come anywhere close to an Ork unless I am in the cleanup stages.

TheBearminator
19-09-2013, 20:58
Nah, skarboyz/'ardboyz are 40k big'uns, Nobs are unit champions/Bosses. There simply isn't a direct analogue for black orcs in 40k, largely because there's no chaos dwarfs to breed them.

It's been many years since I played fantasy. But I don't remember anything about the chaos dwarves in the black Ork fluff. Maybe that is something that changed over time with the coming and going of chaos dwarves.

Mr_Rose
19-09-2013, 21:17
It's been many years since I played fantasy. But I don't remember anything about the chaos dwarves in the black Ork fluff. Maybe that is something that changed over time with the coming and going of chaos dwarves.

The Orc version of the tale is that the Black orcs came from the East, beyond the World's Edge mountains and, being bigger and meaner than normal orcs, quickly rose to prominence, spreading south- and westward as their population grew.
The Chaos Dwarves have a cautionary tale in their history about how they became disappointed with their Orc slaves and their fractiousness, deciding to fix them by making them stronger, smarter and better disciplined. Naturally, they forgot to take away their aggression and hatred of confinement and accidentally bred themselves a rebel command. The dwarves did eventually win their war, however, and drove the orcs out westward, towards the world's edge mountains…

Basically there's no explicit statement to the effect but there is a whole bunch of implyin' in there, to the point of making arguing the point barely worth it without new evidence. This is from both 4th and 8th edition fluff btw.

Theocracity
19-09-2013, 21:27
It should also be noted that the closest thing 40K Orks have to Black Orcs is the Goff clan.

CULCHAIN
19-09-2013, 21:30
We need an improvement to fliers or a flakka wagon

I would love a return of some version of the old flash gitz calling them something else is fine I used to love Rollin with twenty boyz with custom shootas.

Would love a return of cyborks and painboss or maybe a mad doc group that could be dispersed among the boyz

MajorWesJanson
19-09-2013, 23:09
Pure wishlist of models/units to add/ change. No attempt at speculation here.

Waagh Rule- on the turn the waagh is called, this is in effect til the start of your next turn.
All Orks (not grots or vehicles) get Mob Rule, Furious Charge, FNP 6+
HQ:
Warboss- Bump to 4 wounds
Add Nob Kommand Squad option. If boss on bike or in mega armor, Kommand Squad may take the same.
Warboss on bike makes a squad of 6+ warbikers into troops.
Waaagh Rule: Gains Hatred, Fleet, Hammer of Wrath
Add Nazdreg as Warboss SC not in mega armor

Add Bigboss- HQ Nob with wounds, all nob options

Big Mek
Kustom Mega Blasta is S6 AP4 18" with upgrade table of kustom shoota below.
Add Orkimedes as Big Mek SC

Wyrd Boy generates 2 powers, but generates warp points not based on ML, but on how many ork units of 10+ models are within 12" of him.
Warp 'ead generates an additional power, +1 Ld over Wyrd Boy
Mad Boyz retinue of 5-10 for Wyrd boy. may lose d3 to perils instead of take a wound on the wyrd boy.

Elites:
Nobz gain Boss Nob as sergeant equivalent. Nobz bump to Ld8
Nobz may choose to take bikes, mega armor, or flash gitz upgrade with +1 BS, -1 WS, and kustom shootas
Bikes drop Smoke Cloud rule, cost 12 PPM
Mega armor replaces all weapons with big choppa, combi-shoota for 20 points per model. May upgrade big choppa to power klaw for 5 points, combi-shoota to kombi skortcha, rokket for 5 points per.
Kustom Shootas are 18" S5 AP4 Assault 2, and have an upgrade table:
1. No bonus
2. +1 shot
3. +1 Str
4. +1 AP
5. +6" range
6. Roll twice and apply both results, even duplicates. Reroll any further results of 6.
Waaagh Rule: (Nobz) Gain fleet, Hammer of Wrath (Bikers) gain skilled rider (Meganobz) slow and purposeful becomes relentless for the turn, hammer of wrath (flash gitz) gain extra roll on upgrade table that lasts as long as the waaagh

Kommandos- 12 points base: 1A base, 6+ armor. Infiltrate, Move through cover, scouts
Skar boyz upgrade 4 points per model +1A, 5+ FNP
'eavy Armor upgrade 4 points per model 4+ armor
'kamo paint 2 points per model Stealth
Nob may take all nob ccw and shoota weapon upgrades, even kustom shoota.
Waaagh Rule: Shrouded

Burna Boyz- same price, 1A base
Skar boyz upgrade 4 points per model +1A, 5+ FNP
'eavy Armor upgrade 4 points per model 4+ armor
Waaagh rule- gain 6" torrent for burnas

Tank Bustas- Glory Hogs- must target a vehicle or MC if one in range, Preferred enemy vehicles, Monstrous Creatures
'eavy Armor upgrade 4 points per model 4+ armor
Waaagh Rule: Tank Hunter USR, Beast Slayer USR

Add Grot snipas- BS3, Stealth, Ld6 with 24" sniper rifles

Troops:
Boyz- 5 points for slugga/choppa. For 1 point may choose stikk bombs or replace slugga/choppa with shoota. 1A base, 6+ armor
Skar boyz upgrade 4 points per model +1A, 5+ FNP
'eavy Armor upgrade 4 points per model 4+ armor
Nob may take all nob ccw and shoota weapon upgrades, even kustom shoota.
Add burnas to special weapon options
Waaagh Rule: Fleet, fearless

Feral Orks 5 points base, WS4 BS0 2A base, 2 CCW, no armor, poisoned 5+, Ld8 base. No furious charge but move through cover. 5-20 models
Skar boyz upgrade 4 points per model +1A, 5+ FNP
'kamo paint 2 points per model Stealth
May add 1 attack squig per 5 models
Feral Nob has BS2, slugga, choppa, may take boss pole, big choppa, blowdart (18" poisoned 4+ assault 2)
Waaagh Rule: Fleet, furious charge
May take Squiggoth as Dedicated transport

Grots-
Can allso add 1-5 attack squigs to the unit

FA:
Storm Boyz: 12 points per model
Skar boyz upgrade 4 points per model +1A, 5+ FNP
'eavy Armor upgrade 4 points per model 4+ armor
Scattered Landing- When deep striking, place the first model, then all additional models must be placed between 1" and 2" of either the first model or 2+ other models. Any that cannot be placed are lost.
Waaagh Rule: May use jump pack in both movement and assault phase

Buggy- squadrons of 1-5

Mekboy Speedsta- AV 11/11/10 Fast with 3 HP. TL Big shoota, may take kannon, zzapp gun, Shokk Attack Gun, or KFF with 6" radius

Bikers- drop to 12 points per model, 1A, 5+ armor base. drop Smoke Cloud
Skar boyz upgrade 4 points per model +1A, 5+ FNP
'eavy Armor upgrade 3 points per model 4+ armor
Waaagh Rule: Skilled Rider

Deff Koptas- 1-6 in the unit, 22 points per model
Waaagh Rule: Skilled Rider

Gun Trukks- 1-3 squadron
Trukk base with no transport capacity, TL Kannon may upgrade to Quad linked deffgun (may add flakk rounds to give it skyfire) or TL zzap gun
Option for grot gunners (+1 BS, 15 points)

HS:
Lootas-
Waagh Rule: Twin Linked

Squiggoth:
WS2 BS2 S5 T6 6W I2 4+ save 5+ FNP Monstrous Creature
Howdah- counts as open topped transport vehicle for passengers, passengers may choose to fire any other weapons in place of their own, using the gunners BS and any special rules.
TL Deffgun, 15 model capacity (counts as open topped transport vehicle for passengers)
May upgrade to kannon, zzap gun, or lobba
may add up to 4 big shootas and/or rokket launchas

Battle Wagon- 14/12/10 4 HP
big shoota base. May add 3 additional big shootas.
May add kannon, zzap gun, or lobba.
May drop to 12 passengwers to add killkannon or quadlinked deff gun (may upgrade to skyfire).
May drop to 1 passenger (wyrd boy only) to add Wyrd Boy battle tower- doubles range of any powers, any perils become a glancing hit on the vehicle, dedicated transport for wyrdboy.
Option for grot gunners (+1 BS, 15 points)

Looted Wagon 13/12/11 3 HP Tank
Big shoota base, 15 passenger capacity. Dedicated transport for Lootas, Burnas, Tank Hunters.
May upgrade big shoota to zzap gun or rokket launcher
May add a pair of sponson mounted big shootas, zzap guns, or rokket launchers
May drop to 10 passengers to add a turret with TL deff gun (with skyfire upgrade), TL Kannon, TL Zzap gun, lobba.
May drop to 1 passenger (Big Mek Only) to add turret with kill kannon or shokk attack gun.
Options for deff rolla, red paint, 'ard case (4 fire ports), grot riggers, grot gunners (+1 BS, 15 points), armor plates

Kit wise, they could do a Russ hull sprue and a sprue or two that is compatible with it with ork sponsons, weapons, plates, and a transport bay in the back.

Deff Dreads- 80 points base
Comes with 2 Power fists, 2 big shootas base
May upgrade big shootas to skorchas (free), Rokkets (+5 per), KMB (+10 per), Power Fists (+10 per)
May upgrade any power fists to chainfists (+5 per)
May take Grot riggers, red paint, armor plating (+5 points), 'eavy kan (+20, becomes 13/13/10, gains slow and purposeful)

Killa Kans 30 points per, come with power fist, big shoota base.
May upgrade big shoota to skorcha (free), Rokket (+5), KMB (+10), Grotzooka (+10), Power Fist (+10)
May take red paint, armor plating (+5 points), 'eavy kan (+15, becomes 12/12/10, gains slow and purposeful)

Big Guns battery 1-5 guns
Kannon
Zzap gun
Lobba
TL quad linked Deff gun (with skyfire option)
Sentry Squigs option (+10 points per gun, gains interceptor)

DoctorTom
20-09-2013, 16:58
One other change that I'd like to see - have Big Meks not only make a deff dred a troop choice, but also make them scoring. If you're limiting it to one Dredd per Big Mek it might not make things that overpowered by having vehicles score, and would make a dredd mob army more viable.

Mr_Rose
20-09-2013, 18:27
I would rather make killa kan mobs 3-9 and Deff dreads 1-3, now that the squadron rules actually make sense, than have one solitary extra dread, even if it is scoring.

TheBearminator
20-09-2013, 21:19
I would rather make killa kan mobs 3-9 and Deff dreads 1-3, now that the squadron rules actually make sense, than have one solitary extra dread, even if it is scoring.

I think 3x9 killa kanz + 3x20 boyz could be hard to fit into your deployment zone. :)

Nymie_the_Pooh
20-09-2013, 21:39
I don't know about changing the unit size on Deff Dreads. They are basically the Ork equivalent of a Dreadnought. There's no reason for them to be available in groups of three without letting all the other variety of Dreadnoughts do likewise. There's nothing special about them compared to other Dreadnoughts other than the fact that they are Ork Dreadnoughts and therefore automagically the best. I have had no issues with them in this edition outside of one off lists where they were my only Troops option, but I knew I had nothing to claim objectives with when I was writing those types of list. I'd like to see them count as scoring if taken as Troops, but I don't expect it. I know the Ork Deff Dread list in IA8 has Deff Dreads as 1 - 3 in the Troops slot, but I feel that sort of thing should really be left to a supplement if they want to bring it over from Forge World. Maybe if you take the Mekboy as the Warlord, but I don't think it's needed for a generic Ork codex. On Kans, even that list changes the number from 1 - 3 to 3 - 5. Twenty seven of them would get to be a bit much in a regular game. Maybe as part of an apocalypse formation

Darnok
20-09-2013, 22:33
IA:8 disagrees with you. ;)

Nymie_the_Pooh
20-09-2013, 22:46
IA:8 disagrees with you. ;)

Yeah, and I do love IA:8. I think that list not only works, but is pretty darn spanky. I just don't see the reasoning for larger Deff Dread units in a generic Ork list. Like I said, maybe if you take a Big Mek as the Warlord. We do seem to agree on Kans not going up to a possible nine per unit though. I have rarely taken them at less than three this edition so I could see a change to 3 - 5. I don't expect the unit size to change and I have friends that already hate them at three strong so I tend not to take more than one unit of three when I run them anyway.

Darnok
20-09-2013, 22:52
What I hope is, that we get a bit more freedom on the use of Kans. Raise the maximum number on both types, but keep the minimum of 1. That way everybody wins: if you want to use more dreads, you can - and if not, then just don't use them.

Nymie_the_Pooh
20-09-2013, 23:04
Normally I would agree with the premise of what you are saying, but why would Orks have Dreadnoughts in units of three in the generic list while other armies are looking at one max per unit? I can see it as a clan choice or option tied to an HQ buy though. The Kans I can see going to five max, but not the nine max that was proposed.

Mr_Rose
20-09-2013, 23:21
What about the converse? Why do you feel parity between unit sizes between units in different codices is necessary? I've never seen anyone complain that shoota boyz should come in units of 5-10 because that's how other midrange shooty troop units are…

monopeludo
20-09-2013, 23:21
I'd love to see in the next codex...
More grot units.
More vehicles.
An überork. Some kinda huge nob special character.
And as much weird wargear as possible.

Mr_Rose
20-09-2013, 23:33
Actually, my biggest wish is for characters that can gear themselves up to match any of the units in the army. No other species has bosses that are more likely to come over all "my way or the highway" and grab the gubbinz they want and leave whatever's left to everyone else.

Like, if my deffskull Warboss wants a deffgun bolted onto his mega armour he isn't gonna want to her no guff about system incompatibility and drive overloads, he's gonna want the mek to get ta boltin'…
Equally, my goff Warboss might want two extra-rippy killsaws to go wiv 'is shiny new bike, so e's gonna start punchin' until they turn up.

Also, bubble chukkas because they're hilarious.

Nymie_the_Pooh
20-09-2013, 23:52
What about the converse? Why do you feel parity between unit sizes between units in different codices is necessary? I've never seen anyone complain that shoota boyz should come in units of 5-10 because that's how other midrange shooty troop units are…

Because I am curious why Orks would be the ones with the exception.

TheBearminator
21-09-2013, 06:18
Can anyone tell me why slugga boy should be able to buy either shootas stikk bommas for 1 point? What's the point in wasting points on grenades for I2 orcs? For using to strike simultaneously with fire warriors and necrons in cover? Is that worth it for an upgrade that makes your troops 20% more expensive?

Nymie_the_Pooh
21-09-2013, 06:42
Can anyone tell me why slugga boy should be able to buy either shootas stikk bommas for 1 point? What's the point in wasting points on grenades for I2 orcs? For using to strike simultaneously with fire warriors and necrons in cover? Is that worth it for an upgrade that makes your troops 20% more expensive?

It's a hold over from when Furious Charge gave both +1S and +1I.

TheBearminator
21-09-2013, 08:20
It's a hold over from when Furious Charge gave both +1S and +1I.

Yeah, but as they don't anymore I don't see why people are arguing for them.

MajorWesJanson
21-09-2013, 10:51
Maybe make Kans a unit of 1-6 instead of 1-3, and instead of a Deffdred as troops with a Big Mek, Each Big Mek allows one unit of 1-3 Deff Dreds?

TheBearminator
21-09-2013, 11:19
As this is wishlisting, maybe I should wish for some new kind of orc grenades, since stikk bommas won't do us much good any longer. How about a new kind of super stikk bomb, with rules resembling to the IG demo charge. Pie plate, S6 AP3. Kommandos would be an awesome unit to catty this kind of stuff.

MajorWesJanson
21-09-2013, 11:31
As this is wishlisting, maybe I should wish for some new kind of orc grenades, since stikk bommas won't do us much good any longer. How about a new kind of super stikk bomb, with rules resembling to the IG demo charge. Pie plate, S6 AP3. Kommandos would be an awesome unit to catty this kind of stuff.

Maybe change Tank Busta bombs into that? S6 AP3 Armorbane, small blast when thrown?

TheBearminator
21-09-2013, 11:38
Why not? :) But what about the almost useless regular stikk bommas then? Aren't there quite a lot of those in the current boyz kit?

MajorWesJanson
21-09-2013, 11:40
Why not? :) But what about the almost useless regular stikk bommas then? Aren't there quite a lot of those in the current boyz kit?

maybe make stikk bombz force a pinning check on the charge?

Darnok
21-09-2013, 11:49
Maybe make Kans a unit of 1-6 instead of 1-3, and instead of a Deffdred as troops with a Big Mek, Each Big Mek allows one unit of 1-3 Deff Dreds?

Something like that, yeah. Since GW is driven by model sales, I would be hugely surprised if the next codex has the same restriction on dreads as the current one. As an example: I could field 15 Deffdreads in a list using IA:8, and by the gods, GW would love me buying 15 of those kits. Not that I would though. Killakans on the other hand... :shifty:

Mortimer
21-09-2013, 12:38
Because I am curious why Orks would be the ones with the exception.

Choas and Crusader Squads go to 20.

Why should Orks lose out to PA?

I am pretty sure Guardians go to 20 too and Kabalites.

Not really an exception now is it.

Chivs
21-09-2013, 14:28
Can anyone tell me why slugga boy should be able to buy either shootas stikk bommas for 1 point? What's the point in wasting points on grenades for I2 orcs? For using to strike simultaneously with fire warriors and necrons in cover? Is that worth it for an upgrade that makes your troops 20% more expensive?

They're worth it when fighting other Orks.

TheBearminator
21-09-2013, 14:46
When you know you're up against orks, Tau or Necrons, yeah. Then they could do you some good. But not even then I'm sure I'd like to spend twenty points per mob instead of buying more orks.

SpanielBear
21-09-2013, 14:55
Molorkoff cocktail- grenade, S4, AP4, small blast, ignores cover, gets hot. May be taken by Kommandos, Storm-boyz and scar boyz, one per ten boyz in the unit.

Chivs
21-09-2013, 15:18
When you know you're up against orks, Tau or Necrons, yeah. Then they could do you some good. But not even then I'm sure I'd like to spend twenty points per mob instead of buying more orks.
Yeah, I've only paid for them once, when I knew I was in a cityfight vs Orks.
When people are giving their opinions, they're not really listing them as must have items (they're not) but there are times when people might like the option, so should be included.

TheBearminator
21-09-2013, 16:31
Molorkoff cocktail- grenade, S4, AP4, small blast, ignores cover, gets hot. May be taken by Kommandos, Storm-boyz and scar boyz, one per ten boyz in the unit.

I like. :)

Nymie_the_Pooh
21-09-2013, 20:49
Choas and Crusader Squads go to 20.

Why should Orks lose out to PA?

I am pretty sure Guardians go to 20 too and Kabalites.

Not really an exception now is it.

The unit size of boyz was used an an argument for why it was a good idea to make Deff Dreads 1 - 3 (and Kans 3 - 9) without requiring a clan or HQ buy first when other armies are limited to one Dreadnought per unit. Yes, IA:8 permits 1 - 3, but that list is basically a clan list. Tie it to a clan or HQ choice then I would welcome it. I highly doubt we will see Deff Dreads' unit size change to 1 - 3 in the generic list unless they inject something into the existing story to support it. Right now there isn't anything to support all Orks across the galaxy having access to more Dreadnoughts than other races. Sure, in some sections of the galaxy they do, but that is specific to those cultures of Orks.

TheBearminator
21-09-2013, 21:05
I actually think it's a bit tiresome that all (?) Ork unit are so dependant on unit size to stay on the table. I think it's ridiculous that the nobz and flashgitz (warboss aspirants) are Ld7. They became nobs cause they were tough enough to grow old in an Ork society. Now they are leaders of the pack, I really think they deserve more. Or maybe, give the Nob and flashgitz units there own super nobs with Ld8 and some special options. Done.

Also, give psychoblastas back to our biker units. They don't need to be fearless, just let them reroll Ld or something. Riding a chick magnet with dual machine guns should bolster the morale of any Ork.

MajorWesJanson
21-09-2013, 23:20
I actually think it's a bit tiresome that all (?) Ork unit are so dependant on unit size to stay on the table. I think it's ridiculous that the nobz and flashgitz (warboss aspirants) are Ld7. They became nobs cause they were tough enough to grow old in an Ork society. Now they are leaders of the pack, I really think they deserve more. Or maybe, give the Nob and flashgitz units there own super nobs with Ld8 and some special options. Done.

Also, give psychoblastas back to our biker units. They don't need to be fearless, just let them reroll Ld or something. Riding a chick magnet with dual machine guns should bolster the morale of any Ork.

Bring back the BigBoss? A Nob leader who could be both a sergeant equivalent for nob units and maybe even a lesser version of a warboss, like Captain vs Chaptermaster?

TheBearminator
21-09-2013, 23:54
Bring back the BigBoss? A Nob leader who could be both a sergeant equivalent for nob units and maybe even a lesser version of a warboss, like Captain vs Chaptermaster?

Something like that. Now, a warboss isn't a very bad way to bolster leadership of nobs and gitz, since he's just 40 points more than a nob and awesome in general. But first of all I don't remember if you're allowed to take more than one, and secondly: maybe my intention wasn't to field one at all.

misterboff
22-09-2013, 10:34
One change I'd like to see would be for the Mob Rule (if it stays in its current form) to be based on wounds rather than models, that way units of 5 of more Nobz are Fearless. I always thought it was a bit strange that 9 Nobz aren't Fearless but 10 Orks are...

TheBearminator
22-09-2013, 16:39
One change I'd like to see would be for the Mob Rule (if it stays in its current form) to be based on wounds rather than models, that way units of 5 of more Nobz are Fearless. I always thought it was a bit strange that 9 Nobz aren't Fearless but 10 Orks are...

That could work! :)

Kijamon
22-09-2013, 16:44
I love my Speed Freekz army. Don't ruin warbikes as troops please!

Thoume
22-09-2013, 17:07
Bring back the BigBoss? A Nob leader who could be both a sergeant equivalent for nob units and maybe even a lesser version of a warboss, like Captain vs Chaptermaster?
That could fill for the plastic 'clam pack' fad going on with the last few army releases. Can't think of much that could go in one other than a Big Mek or something

Mr_Rose
22-09-2013, 17:49
That could fill for the plastic 'clam pack' fad going on with the last few army releases. Can't think of much that could go in one other than a Big Mek or something

I'm sure I've said it before but, just in case, I shall say it now; I am thinking that the next Ork plastic character will be a variant of the AoBR Warboss, just like how the new space marine hero is a variant of the AoBR Captain.

MajorWesJanson
22-09-2013, 18:18
I'm sure I've said it before but, just in case, I shall say it now; I am thinking that the next Ork plastic character will be a variant of the AoBR Warboss, just like how the new space marine hero is a variant of the AoBR Captain.

They have a very similar pose, but the clampack captain is not a variant of the AoBR one at all. And a Warboss is likely too big to fit in a clampack. 40mm base models likely all are.

Big Mek also may bee too big. My guess would be a BigBoss if they bring him back, or more likely a Wyrd Boy, as they can go for a dynamic mono-pose.

Thoume
22-09-2013, 18:22
Be interesting to see if and how they'd fit that on a 100 x 70mm sprue though (using the farseer sprue as a reference, did have a savage Orc boss frame but I've built that one!) :)

popisdead
23-09-2013, 17:10
Do you have any source on that? Because MW has been rumoured to write any codex since... well GK at least.

Super plus one to this. So tired of listening to people complain about "Matt Ward" rumours.

DoctorTom
23-09-2013, 22:28
I love my Speed Freekz army. Don't ruin warbikes as troops please!

Even if they don't do it in the main codex then they'll probably find a way for it to happen in a Speed Freekz supplement (which I wouldn't be surprised to have as the first Ork supplement).

Flame Boy
24-09-2013, 19:03
I'd really like Kommandos to get some use out of the explosives on both the GW models and the Forge World conversion kits. An expensive, understrength mob of orks that can infiltrate is a bit poor really. I wouldn't want them to steal the thunder of Tankbusters, but some use for the explosives literally covering the models would be nice. They are fantastic models in my opinion, and I just got some to paint up recently, but my Blood Axe army list has my Stormboys trying to express the theme instead of Kommandos.

Mr_Rose
24-09-2013, 23:12
Heh, yeah, some sort of sabotage rule that makes a piece of terrain dangerous and/or reduces the cover it gives maybe. Or perhaps something more "behind the lines" like blowing up supply depots and vital bridges to interfere with enemy reserves and whatnot.

TheBearminator
26-09-2013, 20:21
Exactly. Sabotage was the word I was looking for. Would have to be cleverly implemented though, as that is an aspect of the game GW haven't elaborated with very much. Part of the problem is that objectives of the game are always so simple in GW games. "Go to objective. Hold it until game ends. You win." Of course it also has to do with your game table. If you happen to have tons of buildings and ruins you could have kommandos blowing up bridges, and buildings, planting booby-traps and trip-wire narrow doorways.

Another thing. Why was the mobsize rule rewritten into this all or nothing rule? Like someone pointed out, why is a boyz unit of ten fearless while nine nobz are leadership 7? I liked the old "check size" rule, where after a failed leadership you got the chance to roll equal to or less than your number of orcs with two dice. Nine orks would mean you had to score nine or lower.

Mr_Rose
26-09-2013, 21:33
Another thing. Why was the mobsize rule rewritten into this all or nothing rule? Like someone pointed out, why is a boyz unit of ten fearless while nine nobz are leadership 7? I liked the old "check size" rule, where after a failed leadership you got the chance to roll equal to or less than your number of orcs with two dice. Nine orks would mean you had to score nine or lower.

Er… it wasn't? Nine nobs are Leadership 9, or can be anyway. Also, it's mobs of 11 or more that are fearless. What was suggested earlier was that it ought to be based on Wounds remaining rather than Models, so that a unit of five nobs would be Leadership 10 rather a than 7.

TheBearminator
26-09-2013, 21:39
Maybe I played that part wrong, or just don't remember it right. Haven't played orks for the last year. And I know his idea was top base is on wounds. I supported the idea actually. :)

tgjensen
26-09-2013, 22:23
"Go to objective. Hold it until game ends. You win."

I played a variation recently where objectives were placed along the center line of the table and you won an objective if you held it for one full game turn. That was a far better system, it forces armies to engage and makes it so it actually makes sense to go for objectives during the earlier turns.

Chivs
26-09-2013, 22:25
Part of the problem though is you still have to deduct the number of casualties you lost by in closecombat, meaning we rarely get to test on Leadership 9, or even 7 a lot of the time. Stubborn would really help here.

TheBearminator
26-09-2013, 22:44
Part of the problem though is you still have to deduct the number of casualties you lost by in closecombat, meaning we rarely get to test on Leadership 9, or even 7 a lot of the time. Stubborn would really help here.

Ah. There we have it. Thanks.

Ruination Drinker
28-09-2013, 23:13
What's on my wishlist? Well since 6th ed screwed the melee list I want...

MORE DAKKA!!

Gunz on gunz with gunz inside them that shoot during every phase of the game including your opponent's turn.


But alright, for serious? How about:
- more long range weapons >36"
- more access to cover denial weapons other than scorchas
- more/better artillery -- S8 Ap3 types
- rokkits are horrible without TL -- make 'em S6 Ap5 Blast weapons so they can land once in a while
- Buff Tank Bustas so they can actually kill AV14 armor of just get rid of 'em altogether
- Buff the flyers -- the bombers should drop S8 Ap3 Large Blast -- the burna bomber's should drop flamer templates with torrent rules S6 Ap3
- More Ap3 weapons -- Start with the Deff Gun :)
- Buff Mek boys and Big Meks so they can bolster terrain
- Allow Mek boys to be bought as an upgrade for any unit of infantry -- give Mek boys the option to buy a Signum equivalent that affects the whole squad
- Give all vehicles the option of having Grot Gunners so we can have more BS3
- Let Weird boys roll on the regular psychic abilities table instead of some gimped out random bulldookey disgrace of an ability table
- Make Nobs standard troops -- there's too much competition in the elites section as it is
- 4 point grots, 6 point boys (shoota or choppa), 12 point Nobs
- More types of Nob Banners a la the DA Banners
- Cheaper Koptas -- 24 points should do
- A2 plasma guns
- A plasma blast weapon would be nice for the vehicles/walkers

That would be a nice start.

Darnok
28-09-2013, 23:16
MORE DAKKA!!

Gunz on gunz with gunz inside them that shoot during every phase of the game including your opponent's turn.

You mean like a gun that shoots skulls, with skulls inside the skulls? Wish granted (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1090012a&prodId=prod2130072a). You're welcome. :yes:

Ruination Drinker
29-09-2013, 02:57
I know it's been discussed at length in the past...but Chaos Orks need to happen at some point.

Nymie_the_Pooh
29-09-2013, 03:26
I know at one point the fluff discouraged Chaos Orks. They are supposed to be highly resistant to Chaos. Not immune, but much less susceptible than say Humans by comparison. Other Orks kill the few mutants that crop up for not being Orky enough. Same used to happen to most Weirdboyz unless they managed to hide it until they were powerful enough to take over or were under a truly cunning Warboss that recognized them as being useful. In general, Orks are more fanatical about stomping out impurities amongst themselves than the Inquisition is. I could maybe see a whole army of Chaos Orks, but it wouldn't work with just a few mutants and such here and there so would need to be a Clan trait that applied to practically everybody, or their own book/supplement.

Darnok
29-09-2013, 13:42
I know it's been discussed at length in the past...but Chaos Orks need to happen at some point.

They had Chaos Orks in WD once, done by Adrian Smith himself I think. So the precedent is there.

misterboff
01-10-2013, 08:13
I was thinking that it would be cool to have the 'lesser' HQs (Big Mek, Weirdboy and Painboss) as two per slot similar to Daemonic Heralds. It would make sense background wise for there to be more Oddboyz than Warbosses.

TheBearminator
01-10-2013, 11:20
Yeah, I'd like to have both a weirdboy and a mek to accompany my warboss. Other armies can take their "odd boyz" as advisors and such for their HQs so that should be alright as long as they're not too powerful. Keep the plain mek but make them interesting and an upgrade choice for specific units so that they don't end up as now, like the only loota without a deffgun. That doesn't make any sense.

Mr_Rose
01-10-2013, 11:27
Weirdboyz should just not be an independent choice at all. Not if they continue to be as worthless as they are now, anyway. A "sergeant" upgrade for madboy mobs (that, in turn, you can't have more of than regular boyz) maybe?

Mortimer
01-10-2013, 15:15
Weirdboyz should just not be an independent choice at all. Not if they continue to be as worthless as they are now, anyway. A "sergeant" upgrade for madboy mobs (that, in turn, you can't have more of than regular boyz) maybe?

or just be like Techies are in the SM books..

for every HQ unit (not command squads etc or other wb/mek) you may take 1 Weirdboy or 1 Mek. (count as HQ, takes no slot)

Keep the Big Mek as a hq option so you can get the SAG/KFF, but Meks HAVE to join a non-IC or single model squad..

Mr_Rose
01-10-2013, 15:32
But regular Meks are already in as squad upgrades? That was why I suggested the madboy-weirdboy thing.

brionl
01-10-2013, 18:30
I know it's been discussed at length in the past...but Chaos Orks need to happen at some point.

I was just looking through my Freebooterz book last night. Stormboyz of Khorne, Possessed Weirdboyz, Mutant Mobs, Ork-Genestealer Hybrids. I was actually considering how to best represent an Outcast Oddboyz army in the current edition, but all that other stuff is in there too.

I'd really like to see the return of Squig-brained Orks though.

Mortimer
01-10-2013, 19:34
But regular Meks are already in as squad upgrades? That was why I suggested the madboy-weirdboy thing.
For lootas.

I meant have them as a Wolf Guard type unit that can attach army wide.. even buy them a bike or JP depending on the unit.

Instead of Nobs is need be.