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MajorCorruption
03-09-2013, 17:37
I've been reading a lot of blogs and threads relating to chaos space marines, and the hate for helbrute seems a bit over the top. Are they good, no, are they steaming piles of ****, no. There are some awful units in the current chaos codex, units with no place in an army list, or just so horribly over priced as to be completely useless. A helbrute is a dreadnought, and dreadnoughts aren't as good as they use to be. Quite frankly this is the best iteration of the chaos dreadnought we've seen in years. It's cheaper then it use to be, and has a much smaller chance of killing its buddies.

Again its not a great unit, it might not even be a good unit, but it really is an average unit.

mr.hardrada
03-09-2013, 17:45
You should start a commercial with Sarah McLachlan.........."Think of the Helbrutes? Adopt a Helbrute today."

Murrithius
03-09-2013, 17:47
I think one of the major problems lies in that it can take neither Extra Armour (like it's loyalist counterparts) or Daemonic Possession, so if you stun it, it stays rooted to the spot ready to be shot next turn (disregarding going nuts of course...)

totgeboren
03-09-2013, 18:05
I sort of dislike the new Helbrute model, just because it is hands down the most daemoniacally possessed model in the CSM range, yet it doesn't even have the option for daemonic possession. It looks much more like an MC than either the Dreadknight, the Wraithknight or the Riptide, and it looks much more daemonically possessed than any of the Daemon Engines, yet it is neither a daemon engine nor an MC.

The model mismatches the rule so badly that I don't like putting it on the table. Opponents always assume it has daemonic possession, and then I have to explain that it isn't even an option.

Other than that, chaos dreads work if you use them in pairs and have a lot of other mech like Rhinos and daemon engines to draw fire. On their own they have a hard time, and in the open they also struggle. I view them as a sort of addon to a CSM squad. They need a CSM squad to back them up, by using a rhino to provide cover and the marines to prevent it from getting bogged down.

sgtspiff
03-09-2013, 22:37
The FW dreads are great and should be reason enough to take atleast one.
The rules are imho good enough.
Twin lascannons and make sure there's infantry close.

skorczeny
04-09-2013, 01:02
I'm very happy with my Helbrute, and as others have pointed out, this is the best iteration we've had yet. It comes with a multimelta and powerfist for cheap, so send it after vehicles to draw fire and crushinate armor.

GW currently doesn't sell a Helbrute model outside the DV box game after dropping the pewter model from its range, which bothers me to no end.

IcedCrow
04-09-2013, 02:00
The problem with internet wizdomz is that its very black or white. Its either worth taking, or its horrible.

corps
04-09-2013, 02:40
They work just fine not in assault because chaos in general, in this ed, lack apropriate transport (the equivalent of a stormraven here is clearly evident). The best way to use them that i saw was when hidding in a building, under a hill or screen by something and in defense. It can work goood on the psychological side of wargaming. If your opponents know that there is something ( not expensive) hard to put down and that hit hard, he will think twice befoe going there. Especially if he knows that you have the capacity to have his army exausted before he capture your objectives. One hellbrute and a band of cultist work fine to hold a objective.

Where i agree is that previous dreadnoughts looks like twisted dreadnoughts but still look like dread. Now you have a minis that clearly look like an oversize possessed and still have no deamonic capcities, abilities or power of deamonic nature. It remind me of "hunter, the reckoning" rpg who was written like psychological/survival backgroom but whicht image was utterly destroyed by the silly drawing ( one depict an old mean killing a werewolf with a spoon). It was so misleading that early the autour admit that the drawing kill the mood. Well it also kill the game as few give it a chance to read it and pass the pictures.

This is exactly the same problem with the hellbrutes minis is too misleading to what it realy is. And so few understand what is it or give it credits... no deamonic teleportation, no drop from a drop pod or a stormraven clearly limits his possiblity. That doesn't mean that the hellbrute is useless or worthless. Simply in the competion for battllefield usefelness is not win by it.

If you love the minis use it.

bearsloth13
04-09-2013, 03:06
Never had any luck on the tabletop with it. Loved painting it though. Awesome model.

Haravikk
04-09-2013, 09:05
Personally I think it's okay; it's main issues are that, like all Dreadnoughts this edition, it can be fragile if heavier guns are brought to bear on it, but unlike marine Dreadnoughts it lacks the option of a Drop Pod to get it closer faster. The other issue (again like loyalist Dreadnoughts) is that it's competing for the Elites slot.

In terms of its cost it's decent value, though I'd switch for either a second power fist, twin-linked heavy bolter or reaper auto cannon in favour of the Multi Melta. It's good for a few things; firstly it makes a great distraction, and if you have other heavy stuff for target saturation, it can also be great for slapping next to an objective with some decent cover to deny it (or as corps mentions just any cover you want to keep an enemy away from). Like other Dreadnoughts its also great against hordes or other units that simply can't do anything against it, allowing you force them to fall back. I think one of the main mistakes people make when evaluating units is whether it will make its points back during a game, and in the case of Helbrutes and, again, Dreadnoughts in general this edition they probably won't a lot of the time, but that doesn't mean they can't still do something vital that wins the game for you.
Jumping back to target saturation, I'd love to see an enemy's face when confronted with three Forge Fiends, and three Helbrutes; not many armies could hope to take out enough of them in time :)

My other main issue is that the Dark Vengeance Helbrute is awesome, but a pain in the ass to convert to any of the weapon options I would want on it. Multi-Melta is fine, but I wouldn't really use one for vehicle hunting.

viking657
04-09-2013, 09:52
When it comes to a units worth the factor everyone seems to forget when judging is terrain, the battlefields in clubs and comps etc have along way to go in terms of real amounts and true los blocking. The shooting gallery is the norm imho and the useless units as the internet sees them are indeed rubbish.

When it comes to the helbrute if you unleash it in and around a fair amount of terrain it is a right royal pain to deal with when the enemy can't bring big long range guns to the party. In a city fight it can excel much like many of the of the 'worthless' units in other dex's.

corps
04-09-2013, 14:25
Yes the therrain matter a lot... to a point. In 20 years of gaming i never saw a river be used on a GW shop battle table, in club, in tournment, in friendly batlle and so on. Oh i saw river but none are use. what's my point? simple in the price of the chimeras their is the amphibious ability. That is the ability to cross water wher other unit should not and you pay for it. the helbute cost don't have this problem. you don't ay for a ability that is never use. So take your hellbrute, put it on your side of the river. and agree to say that the river can't be cross unless going over it, or use amphibious or flying transport o a bridge. Then put anything that can provide cover for your hellbrute. Now if something dare to cross the river, then it will face the hellbrute. That nasty but it s time to use the river at your advantage.

i Fully agree with Haravikk, it s beautiful but hard to convert. That s another reason that so many don't use it because lots of their opponents will be "what you see is what you get" and not "count as". It also the reason why player use the ancient chaos dreadnought or converted vanilla loyalist dreadnought

Basically, hellbrute has the potential but something is missing. It s like either the rules don't reflect the minis or ther reverse. Plus they don't make it easy to swap weapons so... potential partially waisted. i m pretty sure that they will improve it in further edition or get back to the dreadnought.

Oh yeah in urban environements he would be great
i like to pairs them one with two power gantlet (free) with two heavy flamer , one for each for a 130p hellbrute and on with twin linked las canon and a missiles launcher for 135p. if you are short of point take the base version 100p

Blempoll
04-09-2013, 16:09
TBH i didnt know people were picking on Helbrutes.. they are the mediocre choice in that book..

people like to pick on the worst; Arguably the Warp Talons (very specialized for what they do, needs tactics to use properly), Mutilators and the Non-chaplain chaplain dude

and pick on the over powered; baledrakes, PM and NM's

or the ugly; Mutialators (in the 41st millennium they forgot how to make xlax?)

the mediocre is often forgot about.. the Helbrute is ok for what it does, not as good as havocs and not as bad as the old dread.

Scribe of Khorne
04-09-2013, 17:47
If we had a *********** drop pod....all would be forgiven.

Ssilmath
04-09-2013, 18:18
I wish more of the game had units like Warp Talons, something that requires skill, careful maneuvering and combined arms tactics to work. Oh well, I actually quite like the idea of using a Helbrute as fire support for regular squads. I may see about designing a list around that concept.

Blempoll
04-09-2013, 18:41
If we had a *********** drop pod....all would be forgiven.

we do.. its called the dreadklaw..

Okay its hard to find one for under 200 (one up on ebay atm for 215) or can just convert a DP into one.

Yes you will need an IA book to run it.. but we got one.


I wish more of the game had units like Warp Talons, something that requires skill, careful maneuvering and combined arms tactics to work.

I agree with you here, they are indeed something that should be admired.. Shame they have no place in the chaos codex when raptors are cheaper and do the same job.


Oh well, I actually quite like the idea of using a Helbrute as fire support for regular squads. I may see about designing a list around that concept.

I find running one behind a ADL with Ksons to be a fabulously expensive and hard hitting unit.

Pop the tin can and the Marines inside have no cover to the ap3..

corps
04-09-2013, 18:48
In fact as Raptor are more versatile they are better than Warp talon. The sad thing is that the Hellbrutes are more versatiles than mutilator but don't have deepstrike like them. they are more versatile than obliterator but they are not in the heavy parts of the list and don't have deep strike. Clearly it deserve a better treatement.

csm
04-09-2013, 19:05
It usually comes down to "the loyalists have the same thing but better". If the hellbrute could take the unique chaos wargeer, such as blastmaster, or dual hades autocannon, then we;d be in business. But it is very bland and boring. Awesome model though.

Scribe of Khorne
04-09-2013, 19:44
we do.. its called the dreadklaw..

Okay its hard to find one for under 200 (one up on ebay atm for 215) or can just convert a DP into one.

Yes you will need an IA book to run it.. but we got one.


Until its in the main codex, no we dont. I get it, I love FW, I love IA units, I buy them, and love them, to bits. But no, we dont have dreadclaws or drop pods, or storm eagles, or alternate land raiders, because to suggest we have it, means its core, and allowed by all, and it isnt.

And dont quote the rule about having fun and opponent agreeing to even play, its meaningless. :p

IcedCrow
04-09-2013, 19:58
When tournament play is removed from the equation, the game opens up exponentially.

Blempoll
04-09-2013, 20:07
Until its in the main codex, no we dont. I get it, I love FW, I love IA units, I buy them, and love them, to bits. But no, we dont have dreadclaws or drop pods, or storm eagles, or alternate land raiders, because to suggest we have it, means its core, and allowed by all, and it isnt.

And dont quote the rule about having fun and opponent agreeing to even play, its meaningless. :p

Fielding a BaleDrake can still be turned down.. You ask permission for everything you field.. Most people don't ask.

Everything FW has released with the 40k "ok stamp" is allowed. You don't even have to ask permission to field them anymore.. it used to be the case a decade ago.. times change.

If contemptors with SM, the eldar stuff with eldar and other factions allowed to field FW in ToS.. how come chaos get shafted? oh wait.. its because its fandom like turning every thread with the mention of chaos in it.. into a whinethread.


I don;t have to quote the rule.. you are infinitely familiar with it i see. yet you disregard it. funny how people in arguments like to pick and choose what they say


When tournament play is removed from the equation, the game opens up exponentially.

That is the thing though. Tournaments are allowing FW more and more, sure in small doses but i have fielded a FW flakk truck with orks now in one ToS and in the comic con held recently in Cardiff.

Two tournies a year or two ago that would have flat out refused FW even having a sideways glance at the front parlour.

Worldeaters
04-09-2013, 20:32
Fielding a BaleDrake can still be turned down.. You ask permission for everything you field.. Most people don't ask.

Everything FW has released with the 40k ok stamp is allowed. You don;t even have to ask permission to field them anymore.. it used to be teh case a decade ago.. times change.

If contemptors with SM, the eldar stuff with eldar and other factions allowed to field FW in ToS.. how come chaos get shafted? oh wait.. its because its fandom like turning every thread with the mention of chaos in it.. into a whinethread.


I don;t have to quote the rule.. you are infinitely familiar with it i see. yet you disregard it. funny how people in arguments like to pick and choose what they say

Being in a codex is not just to get around the "asking permission" issue or the "think outside of tournaments" some games workshop stores don't allow Forgeworld units simply because you would be promoting a product that isn't available for purchase in store.
Another issue with the dreadclaw is that unlike drop pods it isn't a dedicated transport and takes up a fast attack slot.

Blempoll
04-09-2013, 20:37
Being in a codex is not just to get around the "asking permission" issue or the "think outside of tournaments" some games workshop stores don't allow Forgeworld units simply because you would be promoting a product that isn't available for purchase in store.
Another issue with the dreadclaw is that unlike drop pods it isn't a dedicated transport and takes up a fast attack slot.

oh well you will have one less BaleDrake.. not like 2 isn't broken.

I have found from my travels, where there is a GW, there are 2-3 Indies in the same area.

and the thing i found with GW's that tell you to use only gw stuff and not fw, is showing them the FW stuff they sell and their icon on the front page of the books with the rules for my models.

kilokalex
04-09-2013, 20:39
The helbrute should have had the wraithlord stats and been a demon. That would make so much more since.

Blempoll
04-09-2013, 20:48
The helbrute should have had the wraithlord stats and been a demon. That would make so much more since.

I agree with daemon.. but not t8.

MC would be better for it and instead of the glance go mental, its loss of a wound.. say 4wounds t6.. or give it the Spyder stats

Worldeaters
04-09-2013, 20:52
oh well you will have one less BaleDrake.. not like 2 isn't broken.

I have found from my travels, where there is a GW, there are 2-3 Indies in the same area.

and the thing i found with GW's that tell you to use only gw stuff and not fw, is showing them the FW stuff they sell and their icon on the front page of the books with the rules for my models.

First part: I don't like dreadclaws being fast attack, not because of drakes (I only own one and it isn't on my auto include list). It's because I'm limited to a maximum of three.

Second part: be fortunate that your travels are like that. In my area its either a GW store, a club that's on Tuesday nights (when I'm busy) or a Saturday club that is a 1 hour drive or my dining room table (that's why 90% of my games are against my regular opponents wolves or eldar)

Third part: stuff available from a company or what icons appear in books are irrelevant when a store has targets to think of so if you can't buy it in the store you can't use it.

Blempoll
04-09-2013, 20:59
First part: I don't like dreadclaws being fast attack, not because of drakes (I only own one and it isn't on my auto include list). It's because I'm limited to a maximum of three.

Second part: be fortunate that your travels are like that. In my area its either a GW store, a club that's on Tuesday nights (when I'm busy) or a Saturday club that is a 1 hour drive or my dining room table (that's why 90% of my games are against my regular opponents wolves or eldar)

Third part: stuff available from a company or what icons appear in books are irrelevant when a store has targets to think of so if you can't buy it in the store you can't use it.

The stores have computer.

you can access FW from there, browse the site, make a cart of your desired items, go to checkout, enter card details and get it delivered to the GW.

if that isnt by the exact definition of "buying instore".. i don't know what is.

Worldeaters
04-09-2013, 21:13
The stores have computer.

you can access FW from there, browse the site, make a cart of your desired items, go to checkout, enter card details and get it delivered to the GW.

if that isnt by the exact definition of "buying instore".. i don't know what is.

Wrong, can't do that, I was in the store on my break yesterday and asked that. Can't get it delivered to the store and can't pay in the store for anything from Forgeworld. He even went as far as saying people have had things sent to the store without checking with a member of staff and they have turned upto work with delivery slips through the stores letterbox. Only stuff from actual GW site can be sent to the store with the stores normal delivery.

Blempoll
04-09-2013, 21:19
Wrong, can't do that, I was in the store on my break yesterday and asked that. Can't get it delivered to the store and can't pay in the store for anything from Forgeworld. He even went as far as saying people have had things sent to the store without checking with a member of staff and they have turned upto work with delivery slips through the stores letterbox. Only stuff from actual GW site can be sent to the store with the stores normal delivery.

Yet i have done this very thing for at least 5 years..

In fact im picking an order i made from instore on sat along with the spray and codex i preordered.

strange that one person can do it in wales and another cant in england..

and here's me thinking our stores get shafted

Worldeaters
04-09-2013, 21:36
Yet i have done this very thing for at least 5 years..

In fact im picking an order i made from instore on sat along with the spray and codex i preordered.

strange that one person can do it in wales and another cant in england..

and here's me thinking our stores get shafted

A Forgeworld order? Interesting.
I started a job last week near the store I'm talking about so I've been sticking my head in when I can and finding out what I can because I was gonna take some mini's in for there veterans night.
It was the manager I was talking to and he told me I couldn't play a legion list or use Forgeworld units because of them not selling them and only allowed to use stuff they sell. And the manager definately said you can't order Forgeworld into store.
I very rarely frequent GW stores so assumed what he told me was standard.

Scribe of Khorne
04-09-2013, 21:37
See, I knew where this was going.

'Tournaments are too restrictive'
'You ask for every unit/any list can be turned down'
'You cant use this at X indy/GW store'

Same old same old.

Simple story is, for the WIDEST range of acceptance, it needs to be in the main GW codex. If it is not, you rapidly increase the chance of it being not accepted, and if you are spending hundreds of dollars, that matters.

Codex CSM does not get a drop pod. The End.

Feel free to get back on topic, re: Helbrute. We dont have a delivery method however, but feel free to homebrew your own solution of course.

Blempoll
04-09-2013, 21:50
A Forgeworld order? Interesting.

Maybe i am given lee way as i spend at least 40 per visit (between 5 and 10 times a month).. maybe as much as 250 depending on if my son wants anything

so letting me order bitz to go with what i spend instore is the lesser of two evils



I very rarely frequent GW stores so assumed what he told me was standard.

there is an LGS in the same city that is run by ex-gw staffer and offer a 15% discount.. and the gw store lost alot of customers to him over the years.

so letting the standard slip for 1-2 customers is allowed..

I mean the area manager for wales takes orders whenever he is in HQ to be delivered to the store too..


so maybe my local GW is teh black sheep.



Same old same old.

Simple story is, for the WIDEST range of acceptance, it needs to be in the main GW codex. If it is not, you rapidly increase the chance of it being not accepted, and if you are spending hundreds of dollars, that matters.

Codex CSM does not get a drop pod. The End.

You started whining when you said we dont have a *********** DP.. which was off topic may i add.

I pointed you to a legal valid way to get a dp and you carried on whining.

a stereotypical chaos player.. i dont get x wah wah pity me

Ssilmath
04-09-2013, 21:51
Goodness, can we please not have a thread devolve into name calling again? I'm actually really interested in seeing what people suggest about using Helbrutes.

Worldeaters
04-09-2013, 22:12
so maybe my local GW is teh black sheep.



Either that or this guy is a pain, there is zero competition locally and his store costs will be crazy high (I've just moved to the same shopping centre - rent alone is crazy) he will have high targets to hit thus imposing his own gaming restrictions.

But back on topic aside from dreadclaws that are awesome with there frag assault launchers (that derailed this thread a bit - my apologies) I run them one of two ways, first way is in a pair together - one has either twin las or twin auto with a missile launcher deployed alongside one with two cc weapons making my opponent choose to aim for the one that's shooting him and risk getting chopped or aim for the one that will chop him up allowing the other one to shoot.
The second way is to have the shooty one in cover separate from my choppy one who runs as close as possible to my maulerfiend.
Strangely I only usually take two or none, depends if I'm in a walker mood.

I like the idea mentioned earlier of having one support a squad but have never tried it myself.

kilokalex
04-09-2013, 22:54
It is useful reaper and missile launcher makes it a cheap mobile gun platform or flail and hide it in cover near an objective or run it up next to a demon prince let them pick who to shoot.

Blempoll
04-09-2013, 23:02
Goodness, can we please not have a thread devolve into name calling again? I'm actually really interested in seeing what people suggest about using Helbrutes.

believe it or not so am i..

I just also dislike when all chaos threads turn to whine threads due to too many chefs spoiling the broth.


I have said above how i ran mine..

I have also seen it work very well as a distraction unit.. run it with a PC full pelt at an enemy HS and watch him try to decide if the rhino with 5PM is more worrying than a PC wielding mad man.

Scribe of Khorne
04-09-2013, 23:45
:D

I was not whinging. I simply mentioned that if we had a drop pod, the unit (and much of the codex actually) would function very differently indeed 'better'. I was then told we have one, but as I commented, we do not.

I'm not turning this into a whine thread, nor do I feel my comment was out of bounds or 'crying', perhaps its a language barrier I dont know.

Regardless, the Brute is overshadowed, is a generalist in a book full of over priced generalists, and is forced to either buy a decent ranged upgrade and become expensive, or run Cobra Commander style (thats for you Shego!) towards the enemy hoping to not blow up, or do something we dont like, while looking sideways at a troop choice dread that can attack...forever.

By all means though, attack me, as my tears flow and my hate feeds my maulerfiend (which does what the brute wishes it could in getting there fast, cheaply).

Kiras of the flame
05-09-2013, 01:57
I agree with the hellbrute being overshadowed... Also GW doesn't feel like releasing a Helbrute model so people are left with either

A.Getting a Loyalist Dread and covering it with spikes (I preffer the Venerable Dreadnought because it looks hella sexy when you corrupt it...)
B.going to Forge World (and burning a hole in your wallet... as usual)
C.Using the Dark Vengance Helbrute (in which it's stuck in the Multi-Melta/Power Fist Combo...)

Then you realize the Loyalists have better versions and so it fuels your rage to kill all loyalist dreadnoughts...

and thus the cycle is complete

Blempoll
05-09-2013, 02:19
C.Using the Dark Vengance Helbrute (in which it's stuck in the Multi-Melta/Power Fist Combo...)


Its very easy to convert the MM arm to other weapons.

still stuck with fist

Gig
05-09-2013, 05:50
A Maulerfiend completely outclasses the Hellbrute for a mere 25 points you get, -1WS, Daemonic Possession, Daemon Forge, +6inch movement and -2 attacks for everything in base contact with it the poor Hellbrute can't really compete with that.

As for a shooting Hellbrute it is completely outclassed by a Predator, which is either a bit more expensive for far more anti tank fire-power, or cheaper with far more anti infantry firepower. A Predator is also AV13 on the front, and can take Daemonic Possession.

NitrosOkay
05-09-2013, 06:35
Would you ever take Daemonic Possession on a Predator though?

IAMNOTHERE
05-09-2013, 07:34
Yes because it's a gun platform not a transport.

Worldeaters
05-09-2013, 07:49
The best thing going for the chaos dreadnought is the fact it's in elites, its a nice shoe-in when you've got 100pts spare and have maxed out the better slots. Although I would love daemonic possession (especially if you own the new plastic one) I don't like the fact it would be initiative 3. A dreadnought is ironically the last thing a maulerfiend would want to charge.

csm
05-09-2013, 12:53
100 extra points to me seems like an oppertunity to take 20 cultists.

You never know what an extra scoring unit or two might mean at the end of the game when they are hiding in the back field next to a 4 point objective :)

ChaosLordKaranath
06-09-2013, 11:09
In my chaos force I used one with a plasma cannon and the other 2 have a tl las cannon they support my land raider which is delivering my termies :) and are in turn supported by my bikes and raptors

Bonzai
06-09-2013, 15:17
I use 2 in my 1k Sons list. I armed them with AC & ML, and they function as additional armor saturation in the list (3 rhinos, 2 vindicators, forge fiend). They do a little here and there, and usually are ignored for as long as possible while my opponent focuses on the bigger threats. At the moment that's the best role I can think of for them.

I would love to get more options for Hellbrutes. This was yet another missed opportunity in the codex. They could have had a possessed hellbrute, giving it the demon rule, and allow it to buy marks. It will not die would have been nice too. Drop pods would have done wonders for the dex in general, and the Hellbrute in particular.

csm
06-09-2013, 20:16
I use 2 in my 1k Sons list. I armed them with AC & ML, and they function as additional armor saturation in the list (3 rhinos, 2 vindicators, forge fiend). They do a little here and there, and usually are ignored for as long as possible while my opponent focuses on the bigger threats. At the moment that's the best role I can think of for them.

I would love to get more options for Hellbrutes. This was yet another missed opportunity in the codex. They could have had a possessed hellbrute, giving it the demon rule, and allow it to buy marks. It will not die would have been nice too. Drop pods would have done wonders for the dex in general, and the Hellbrute in particular.

Could you imagine a daemon of nurgle Helbrute with lascannon/plasma cannon and missle launcher?
The cover save it would get would mean most armies would pretty much leave it alone at long distances, while it would be capable of killing both vehicles and infantry every turn.

Huge missed oppertunity there.

Ssilmath
06-09-2013, 20:17
Huge missed oppertunity there.

Why is it that the "missed opportunities" always manage to coincide with overpowered crap?

csm
06-09-2013, 20:31
Why is it that the "missed opportunities" always manage to coincide with overpowered crap?

Nothing that other armies (like eldar) don't already do a lot better than what I described.

Ssilmath
06-09-2013, 20:36
Nothing that other armies (like eldar) don't already do a lot better than what I described.

And those armies don't have their own drawbacks (T3 across the board, for example)? Gotta look at the big picture, not just bits and pieces of a faction you envy.

csm
07-09-2013, 00:43
And those armies don't have their own drawbacks (T3 across the board, for example)? Gotta look at the big picture, not just bits and pieces of a faction you envy.

It's more than just that I wish the helbrute did more just for general power. They genuinely made it look like a daemon. It's fleshy and evil. Everything about it screams "daemon". If not giving it marks, at least give it daemon engine rules like the forge fiend and mauler fiend. No one every accused those two units of being over powered. Could have given it to the Helbrute since they put all this effort into making it look unique from every other dreadnought ever made.

Scribe of Khorne
07-09-2013, 05:58
Give it Daemon Forge, Daemon, and IWND. Bring some cohesiveness to the list. At that point it would be justified to call it a 'helbrute' instead of the dreadnought we all know it is.

Keep it at 100 points while your at it, and whoa, something interesting in the elites slot that fits the Warpsmith, Heldrake, Forge Fiend, Defiler family. It would almost be like the book had some kind of theme.

Brotheroracle
07-09-2013, 16:26
Its not hard to take off the powerfist on the helbrute. With a saw you can take that arm cleanly off the main body, and you can do as I did and use a havoc launcher for the missile launcher, looks good.

Bonzai
07-09-2013, 20:10
Why is it that the "missed opportunities" always manage to coincide with overpowered crap?

To me the missed opportunity was that Hellbrutes could have been a dreadnaught variant, and added some more options and variety to the dex. Loyalists get Ironclads and venerable dreadnoughts, as well as chaplains, siege, and mortis patterns if FW is allowed. Blood Angels have Furioso and Librarian dreads. Chaos Space Marines just have a plain Jane version. Hellbrutes could have been the Chaos version of an assault dreadnaught with a daemonic twist.

Power aside, they had an opportunity to expand upon the simple dreadnaught, and do something cool and flavorful (as well as sell additional kits). Yeah, I call that a wasted opportunity. Instead we have the same old dreadnaught with a new name.

NitrosOkay
08-09-2013, 02:25
Yes because it's a gun platform not a transport.

I've never seen ignoring stuns as worth it since glances stopped stunning. Dropping to BS3 is a big performance hit.

Marshal_Loss
08-09-2013, 07:00
I've never forgiven GW for taking away my ability to place a Havoc Launcher on top of my CSM Dreadnought. It looked so epic. :(

totgeboren
08-09-2013, 09:02
I've never forgiven GW for taking away my ability to place a Havoc Launcher on top of my CSM Dreadnought. It looked so epic. :(

I assumed the no-access-to-the-armoury was a misprint, especially as the Defiler of all things got access to it, and the Havoc Launcher is an iconic Chaos Dread upgrade, but they didn't change it in the FAQ.
Here is me hoping they correct this in the next FAQ at least. :(

RunepriestRidcully
08-09-2013, 12:09
I've had luck with one with a plasma cannon or a tw lascannon runnign alongside thousand sons and vindicator and 2 predators.
Ssilmath: Where is your sig from? :P

Inquisitor Shego
08-09-2013, 13:22
My only gripe with the Hellbrute is its name. I much prefer Chaos Dreadnought, if only because that's what I've called it for 20 years. A coffin for a madman. It's like sticking two guns, a flame thrower, and a giant chainsaw on the side of Arkham Asylum, and then telling it you slept with its wife. They're brilliant. Okay, new edition means dreadnoughts aren't as survivable, but damnit, this is one unit that does okay in my book. Daemonic Posession might be interesting, but then I suppose by logic it becomes a sarcophagus for a daemon, not a marine. Isn't that what the dinobots were for?

Ah, I dunno. I think the lack of Daemonic Possession makes sense. Shame they lack drop pods, built like prisons which just release an insane monster. Imagine it. He's only ever awake when those doors blast open, and thus in an endless war. Awwwwesome

Ssilmath
08-09-2013, 16:13
Ssilmath: Where is your sig from? :P

Hey, the revised ideas are much better and I'd support that. It's just when people push out an extreme, over powered pipe dream and then sigh wistfully and say "Such a missed opportunity" that I start wondering just what opportunity was missed. Did they miss the opportunity to make a unit flavorful and useful, or miss the opportunity to make a unit broken and overpowered?

kilokalex
13-09-2013, 21:04
I think the helbrute is a symptom of the disease. Chaos marines should be totally different than marines. Start with the weapons chaos marines ditch the bolter for a more assault oriented weapon that is weaker like a strength 3 assault 2 ap - with shred and 24" range. Drop the flamers for gas sprayers poison 4+ ap- template. Instead of Meltas go with an assault variant of the main weapon 24" at strength 3 ap- 4 shot. Instead of plasmaguns a 24" assault 1 strength 5 ap 2 doom shooter that gets hot. Psychotic fueled by insane desires chaos space marines are immune to fear. Just examples totally diverge from space marines in all aspects.

Ssilmath
13-09-2013, 23:04
So in one thread we have people who want to pull the Chaos out of Chaos Marines, now in this one we have the people who want to pull the Marines part out. Maybe a weapon like that would be used for Traitor Guardsmen, but the weapon of Marines is the Chainsword and Bolter. There's no need to change things just for change's sake.

kilokalex
13-09-2013, 23:16
Chaos should be assault oriented not shooty so the grew tired of bolters and reworked them to shoot rounds that shatter on impact to cause more grievous wounds. Also they should drop bolt pistols and come with 2 attacks and aspiring champs to equal atsknf, combat squads, and stubborn/combat doctrines. Overwatch isn't so scary when you can unload 20 rounds and charge in with three attacks. Makes since in fluff too.

Ssilmath
13-09-2013, 23:20
Chaos should be assault oriented not shooty so the grew tired of bolters and reworked them to shoot rounds that shatter on impact to cause more grievous wounds. Also they should drop bolt pistols and come with 2 attacks and aspiring champs to equal atsknf, combat squads, and stubborn/combat doctrines. Overwatch isn't so scary when you can unload 20 rounds and charge in with three attacks. Makes since in fluff too.

No, Chaos should be as diverse and flexible in their tactics as everybody else. You can already build lists that are heavy on the melee aspect, so I'm not sure what your problem is. Seriously, why does everybody want to pigeonhole Chaos (Or Chaos factions) into little tiny boxes for how they can play and be organized?

Mortimer
13-09-2013, 23:26
Chaos should be assault oriented not shooty so the grew tired of bolters and reworked them to shoot rounds that shatter on impact to cause more grievous wounds. Also they should drop bolt pistols and come with 2 attacks and aspiring champs to equal atsknf, combat squads, and stubborn/combat doctrines. Overwatch isn't so scary when you can unload 20 rounds and charge in with three attacks. Makes since in fluff too.

what fluff are you reading where Chaos SM rework their bolters to fire Special Ammo and forgo a bolt pistol for what seems like a combat knife? World Eaters maybe but not in Word Bearers omnibus, Night Lord books, IW's or anything else chaosy that has been released in the last 40years (time works funny in The Eye) have i come across marines forgetting that a Bolt Pistol is far superior than running headlong into bolter fire.

Also how does getting AspChamp (+1A & +1LD) equal a betterment of ATSKNF, Combat Squads, Chapter Traits or other gubbinz they may have?

Can you just leave this thread alone to people having a proper discussion? It is far better suited to people who can argue their way out of a moist towelette packet.


No, Chaos should be as diverse and flexible in their tactics as everybody else. You can already build lists that are heavy on the melee aspect, so I'm not sure what your problem is. Seriously, why does everybody want to pigeonhole Chaos (Or Chaos factions) into little tiny boxes for how they can play and be organized?

because they dont want "chaos".

They want Killy CC army. or super gimmicky "I can outflank and charge first turn coz AL can in fluff" armies.

They arent happy with a perfectly decent codex because The Vacuum told them it wasn't good.


This is why my sig is a quote from diskworld.

It sums up forums and the arguments that arise there.

I suppose "The best laid schemes o' mice an' men / Gang aft agley." works too

kilokalex
13-09-2013, 23:35
So an aspiring champ for the same cost as atsknf, combat squads, doctrines is equal as it is right now in the codexes.

Mortimer
13-09-2013, 23:39
So an aspiring champ for the same cost as atsknf, combat squads, doctrines is equal as it is right now in the codexes.

Are you arguing against your own argument?

You truly do belong in the chaos camp there.. they leave sanity at the door too

kilokalex
13-09-2013, 23:54
I don't think you understand at all what I am saying a chaos marine should get 2 attacks base, and the squad should get an aspiring champ, for the same cost as a squad of space marines squads with atsknf, combat squads, and combat doctrines they have now. Then drop the bolt pistol give them an assault 2 24" strength 3 ap- bolter with shred. It's not a lasgun at all cause a lasgun is rapid fire so at 24" shots once plus it's fired a 4+ opposed to 3+ then you have one chance to wound on 4 toughness that's a 5+ where what I'm saying has 4 chances to wound on a 5+ opposed a bolter that hits the same and has one chance to wound on 4+. Assault weapons are best for shooty your range is still thirty inches just like the rapid fire.

Ssilmath
14-09-2013, 00:08
Once again, you're taking both the Chaos and the Marine out of the picture. What you describe would be great for a Dark Mechanicus unit, but Assault 2, S3 and AP - is not a bolter. Nor would a weapon like that encourage assaulting, it encourages gunlining and kiting your opponent and using the two base attacks to dissuade them from charging you.

kilokalex
14-09-2013, 00:18
So what are the rules for marine and chaos?

kilokalex
14-09-2013, 00:21
Now all they are is loyal marines without benefits.

Mortimer
14-09-2013, 00:28
I don't think you understand at all what I am saying a chaos marine should get 2 attacks base, and the squad should get an aspiring champ, for the same cost as a squad of space marines squads with atsknf, combat squads, and combat doctrines they have now. Then drop the bolt pistol give them an assault 2 24" strength 3 ap- bolter with shred. It's not a lasgun at all cause a lasgun is rapid fire so at 24" shots once plus it's fired a 4+ opposed to 3+ then you have one chance to wound on 4 toughness that's a 5+ where what I'm saying has 4 chances to wound on a 5+ opposed a bolter that hits the same and has one chance to wound on 4+. Assault weapons are best for shooty your range is still thirty inches just like the rapid fire.


You dont seem to understand marine armies then.

you want basic CSM to be on par with vanguard vets, for same price as tactical squads, that lose the bolt pistol entirely, a weapon that even guardsman can get AND lose the signature weapon of a space marine that does swimingly without needing changes, in favour of a lasgun with shred that will need a 5+ to wound marines and cant wound t7 or even glance av10? And I am the one that has a disconnect?

kilokalex
14-09-2013, 00:33
Right now they are not on par with loyalist tactical squads. When they should be better.

Mortimer
14-09-2013, 00:34
Now all they are is loyal marines without benefits.

so MoN's +1T, MoK's rage and CA, MoTz's +1inv or MoS's +1Int isnt a benefit?

christ you have a poor view on this faction.




Right now they are not on par with loyalist tactical squads. When they should be better.

You can get a 20man T5 fearless blob.

and then you can get PM's too.



Do you even play this army or are you just bitching because that's the bandwagon?

Ssilmath
14-09-2013, 00:34
So try to figure out benefits that keep the theme. Giving Chaos Marines a suped up lasgun isn't the answer for making them different, nor is saying that you don't have any benefits at all. The latter is not true at all, the benefits just aren't what people want to be getting.

Rather than forcing your "Chaos should be about assault" down everybody's throats, how about something along the lines of suggesting a new upgrade option. Maybe...

"A detachment that has chosen the "Dark Mechanicus" warband trait may choose to upgrade their boltguns to Exterminator rounds for 1 pt per model. When a unit fires, declare whether they are using Exterminator Rounds or normal bolt rounds this turn. Exterminator Rounds are designed to explode into prior to impact, delivering a dozen warheads into close proximity. Exterminator rounds are Str 3, Ap -, Shred and Blind."

Something like that.

kilokalex
14-09-2013, 00:39
Make them leadership 9 to start and allow them to reroll leadership. That would equal all the loyalist stuff. I gave up on them and went to noise marines.

kilokalex
14-09-2013, 00:42
Mot 6+ inv for 2 points vs 6+ fnp free

Mortimer
14-09-2013, 00:42
Make them leadership 9 to start and allow them to reroll leadership. That would equal all the loyalist stuff. I gave up on them and went to noise marines.
SO your idea for better chaos is to be on par with GK but keep all the cool stuff chaos has?

you want "equal" yet cant see how equal the book is.

People were upset the book wasnt on par with necrons and GK.. instead its on par with sm.. more internally and externally balanced.

Scribe of Khorne
14-09-2013, 00:43
Frankly these threads have all depressed me, FW knows how the Legions should have been done. See you in 30K land...

kilokalex
14-09-2013, 00:45
Frankly these threads have all depressed me, FW knows how the Legions should have been done. See you in 30K land...

How are they different?

kilokalex
14-09-2013, 00:47
SO your idea for better chaos is to be on par with GK but keep all the cool stuff chaos has?

you want "equal" yet cant see how equal the book is.

People were upset the book wasnt on par with necrons and GK.. instead its on par with sm.. more internally and externally balanced.

So on par minus force weapons, storm bolters, psychic powers, and deep strike.

Mortimer
14-09-2013, 01:00
Mot 6+ inv for 2 points vs 6+ fnp free

TBH the IH chapter trait only pays off if you go Vehicle heavy, the 6+ FnP is second hat.

Like I said.. Chaos book is more balanced and so is the SM one..

besides there is an entire thread to whine about how shafted you feel for not getting legion traits..


It seems to me you are whining for whine sake at this point.. X doesnt have Y when Z gets Y for free wah wah

CULCHAIN
14-09-2013, 01:01
I think the old possession that added to armour (you have to pay for this though). IWND and daemon base.

Mortimer
14-09-2013, 01:02
Frankly these threads have all depressed me, FW knows how the Legions should have been done. See you in 30K land...
christ if you are depressed by all this.. something is desperately wrong..

and don;t be too sure that people will not whine there that ATSKNF doesnt exist.. or X/Y isnt there

EDIT:


So on par minus force weapons, storm bolters, psychic powers, and deep strike.

you want the high leadership, ATSKNF, something akin to SB but different ammo, combat squads and other extra special rules that chaos hasnt got but that pisses you off.

If you want all that crap.. go jump ship as frankly, you are bringing a bad name to the faction

Dragoon King
14-09-2013, 01:19
I ran a Helbrute in a 1200 pt. game against Dark Angels last week, and it dominated. Stick it with a squad or two of P. Marines and equip it with Plasma Cannon. Nasty against Termies.

kilokalex
14-09-2013, 02:17
Mortimer your mixing them together no I want to re roll moral checks and have leadership nine off the bat the reason I started chaos. Forget all the other crap he asked how to fix them and that would fix them. Back to what they where and are supposed to be.

malisteen
14-09-2013, 02:22
Forgeworld knows how the chaos legions should be? What, you mean the heresy stuff? Where the chaos legions are just literally exacly the same as the loyalists, in both rules and models? I'm sorry, but that's no version of chaos that I care about. But don't worry, if that's the version of chaos you want, it's available in 40k, too. It's called collecting a plain old regular space marine army, and just calling them renegades.

Don't get me wrong, I love the fw heresy stuff, but there's not a chaos marine to be seen in the lot ot it so far.

As for the brute, walkers are so bad jn 6th that all the new walkers lately have been monstrous creatures instead, just so that players would even consider buying them. Loyalists don't use their dreadnoughts, either, and they come with armor 13, or rifleman set ups, or psychic powers, and so on. Even the regular ones have drop pods to guarantee at least a single round of shooting with the better, cheaper close range options.

As for dreadclaws, they cost nearly a hundred points and a fast slot, and instead of reducing scatter, they just mishap if they land on on your models, or within an inch of the enemy, and take their contents along for the ride. And we don't have access to reserves manipulation or even homing beacons. So no, we don't have drop pods. Like, at all.

Which leaves our helbrutes in a pained state. Not literally unplayable, of course, but certainly not any good. At least the dv and fw models make nice display pieces?

If you must field them for thematic or aesthetic reasons, try running a pair with missile launchers and either autocannons or lascannons to threaten light to mid armor at range -since, let's face it, you aren't getting close to anything that isn't hapy to melee you anyway - and run them in an army with a couple preds, fiends, or other allied mid to heavy armored vehicles. Still not good, but may be functual in a casual setting where vehicles have been scarce for whatever reason.

mr.hardrada
14-09-2013, 02:54
Forgeworld knows how the chaos legions should be? What, you mean the heresy stuff? Where the chaos legions are just literally exacly the same as the loyalists, in both rules and models? I'm sorry, but that's no version of chaos that I care about. But don't worry, if that's the version of chaos you want, it's available in 40k, too. It's called collecting a plain old regular space marine army, and just calling them renegades.

Don't get me wrong, I love the fw heresy stuff, but there's not a chaos marine to be seen in the lot ot it so far.

As for the brute, walkers are so bad jn 6th that all the new walkers lately have been monstrous creatures instead, just so that players would even consider buying them. Loyalists don't use their dreadnoughts, either, and they come with armor 13, or rifleman set ups, or psychic powers, and so on. Even the regular ones have drop pods to guarantee at least a single round of shooting with the better, cheaper close range options.

As for dreadclaws, they cost nearly a hundred points and a fast slot, and instead of reducing scatter, they just mishap if they land on on your models, or within an inch of the enemy, and take their contents along for the ride. And we don't have access to reserves manipulation or even homing beacons. So no, we don't have drop pods. Like, at all.

Which leaves our helbrutes in a pained state. Not literally unplayable, of course, but certainly not any good. At least the dv and fw models make nice display pieces?

If you must field them for thematic or aesthetic reasons, try running a pair with missile launchers and either autocannons or lascannons to threaten light to mid armor at range -since, let's face it, you aren't getting close to anything that isn't hapy to melee you anyway - and run them in an army with a couple preds, fiends, or other allied mid to heavy armored vehicles. Still not good, but may be functual in a casual setting where vehicles have been scarce for whatever reason. The Legiones Astartes lists do a better job for Alpha Legion, Night Lords, and arguably Iron Warriors than the current codex. Not all the traitor legions were super into chaos.

Scribe of Khorne
14-09-2013, 06:42
I'm also a Legion fan before I am a Chaos fan. I just happen to align with the 'Chaos/Renegade' Legions before the Loyalists.

In that regard, FW provides far far farrrrrr more than the CSM codex, yet oddly the SM codex applied the same logic as the FW books are. A few choice rules, a little flavour, a little distinction built into the rules, and there you go.

Legions are the draw for me.

Endobai
14-09-2013, 07:13
Helbrutes.
I've seen them used and did happen to perform pretty well, however as much of the CSM stuff it is such a waste of potential.
Even daemonic possession is not available, not to mention chaos marks or specific upgrades e.g. sonic weaponry.
They are... very unchaotic and pretty much can be represented by loyalist dreads with modeling little effort.


Forgeworld knows how the chaos legions should be? What, you mean the heresy stuff? Where the chaos legions are just literally exacly the same as the loyalists, in both rules and models?

Sorry, but they are NOT Chaos legions YET. All chaotic what there is are Sonic Shriekers for the EC, the blade of Laer for Fulgrim and... nothing more really.
Book two will provide more, but you won't see chaos legions for a while.

These however, even without special rules - which will be soon provided - are better legion rules than anything in the CSM codex.

Even plain Great Crusade legion list provides better ways to show Iron Warriors (siege vehicles, artillery, characters), Alpha Legion (Seeker Squads, Vigilator, veterans) or Night Lords and the last ones soon will get their special rules, some of them already shown in the HH - Massacre video:

- A Talent for Murder: If Night Lords units outnumber their out enemy in combat at any initiative step, they gain +1 to wound

- Nostroman Blood: They may choose to fall back instead of getting pinned, plus they recieve +1 to any fall back distances

- Night Vision: All models in a Nigth Lords primary detachment (not just those with the Legiones Astartes: Night Lord special rule) have night vision

- From the shadows: any Night Lord units get a 6+ cover save on turn 1, even in the open. This maybe be combined with stealth, etc but it doesn't improve a cover save they already get

- Seeds of Dissent: If the army Warlord is slain, all units with this special rule must immediately take a morale check as if they'd taken 25% casualties from shooting

Chaospling
14-09-2013, 11:55
Missed opportunities regarding the Helbrute:

It's possibly one of the most converted models in the entire game. The amount of Helbrutes or Chaos Dreadnoughts which players have converted to be extreme Nurgle variants or variants of the other Chaos gods is staggering! Forgeworld acknowledged this fact and made a variant of each Chaos Legion but could Chaos players somehow get rewarded for this - no; every Helbrute is the same no matter how the rest of the world, customer or business, sees the Helbrute. Quite boring when a company like this lacks ingenuity.

I could imagine that they've sold enough Chaos Dreadnoughts for now and they don't want them to represent a lot of points or be over than average exciting to field; this way if a player actually fields a Helbrute, then with very few options it will be very cheap and induce us to buy more models to complete an army.

This is understandable, I could imagine that it works this way as GW have to make money, but they just can't expect us to be as thrilled about the hobby as we would have been, had the Helbrute have options to represent its' background and appearance better.

malisteen
14-09-2013, 13:20
Again, I like the heresy stuff, don't get me wrong, but it you want that version of the chaos legions, the 'I'm exactly the same as loyalists in looks and rules with not a hint of chaos to me', then that version already exists in 40k. It's called the regular old space marine codex and model range. You don't have to resort to rules from a different game altogether to field that.

And if that's what you're fielding, then your dreadnoughts, while still not great, can have av13, and drop pods, so they aren't even close to as bad as helbrutes anyway. If someone's trying to make helbrutes specifically work, then we can safely assume they're playing chaos marines, not regular marines, so the fw 30k rules for regulas marines are of no help, and as such aren't worth suggesting anyway.

Soldado
14-09-2013, 15:49
Chaos dreads can sinergyze (sp?) well with some buddies.

Dread w/plasma cannon+10 CSM w/2x plasmagun in a rhino+ectofiend. Not very expensive (nor cheap :p) and you can vaporize anything. Dread CCW & meltabombs to take out high AVs.

malisteen
14-09-2013, 16:57
Taking rhinos and fiends is a good idea. You probably cant take enough armor cheaply enough to overcome anti tank fire, especially at av12 or less, but every little bit helps. I dont recommend fists though. Again, the chaos dread is slow, fragile, and lacks alternative deployment or delivery methods, so it probably wont be getting close enough to use that fist against anything that wont just crush it anyway. If you do want to use brutes, I think youll get a lot more mileage out of missile las or missile ac builds, which can get a few good shots in early on.

Im thinking maybe a couple las missile dreads, a couple dakka fiends, and some las havoks, all enjoying an adl, with a warpsmith manning an icarus when hes not fixing up the walkers, with some cultists for backfield objectives, some plas csms in rhinos to hassle forward objectives, and a drake or two just because?

Even after all that, its a rather poor mech spam list as far as such go, offensively and defensively. Maybe las preds instead of fiends, and autohavoks instead of lashavoks? Or maybe drop the fiends and csms for guard allies so you can get more hullpoints on the board cheaper and with better armor and guns? Or just run a mech heavy guard list to begin with, and ally in csms for a cheap sorcerer, a drake, and a lasmissile brute simply because you like the models and flavor and for no other reasons?