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Leogun_91
04-09-2013, 20:19
Hi
With the release of the Dark Vengence box and an apparent interest for the chaos side from a friend I decided to try Dark Angels, I bought to boxes which we split and I got a terminator chaplain and land-speeder to fill out the options. I knew I couldn't get all the cool stuff the codex marines could but I was sure that the thunderfire cannon and the fliers would be in the next update and I could get those as allies anyways if I wanted. Then they got their new codex and while the rules were updated and improved there was still no thunderfire cannon and the awesome space marine fliers were replaced with the, in my opinion, lackluster ravenwing planes. This wasn't nice but both kinds of new knights were nice-looking so I could look pass it.
Then the new space marine codex comes and brings in lots of new cool stuff I can't use, mainly centurions and proper veterans which makes me feel the Dark Angels are even less interesting.
I'm thinking of removing the chapter symbols and repainting them to a codex chapter in order to get to use things I find cooler but there is quite some time placed in painting them and I don't like repainting my models for that very reason. I have thought about making a ravenwing list as it seems fun to play (and Sammael is a really cool model) but I don't really feel like pumping more time and money into a project that has been so much of a disappointment. I know I can just start another space marine army but then it feels like I would be rebuilding the Dark Angels army with new colours (and some cool new machines) which isn't too appealing since there are more novel project ideas in my mind. I could just add the codex stuff to the Dark Angels painted in their colour and used as allies but I feel like that would break their fluff a lot and that ruins the game somewhat for me.
So I ask for some advice in this. Some ideas on how to continue from this point.

flemfilms
04-09-2013, 20:27
Just because they are painted as DA doesn't mean you have to use them as DA. You can still use them as any/all standard codex marines chapters. Then build and paint any new units you want. You can even flip between the two books for variation.

If you encounter anyone who has a problem with this you know where you can tell them to go.

Zothos
04-09-2013, 20:27
So you picked an army, hoping it would be another army?

Why do variant marine armies always feel entitled to what other variant marine armies get? It always seems folks want their special snowflake marines, until a different snowflake gets new toys.

That said, repaint, or change the chapter markings seems the easiest way to go. There are many green marine color schemes in the background. A buddy of mine is using the Dark Vengeance marines in his vanilla army, making very few alterations to the iconography. So, go for it!

IcedCrow
04-09-2013, 20:30
They're you're toys. Do what you want with them. Buy the other marine codices and use their rules. Just make sure you are playing in a group that doesn't care about that kind of thing, and it doesn't matter what anyone on the internet thinks.

Blempoll
04-09-2013, 20:32
keep colours. keep iconography.

paint new stuff (centies/AA rank) the same as your scheme and just use the new dex with whatever chapter traits you want and just call your chapter renegades or X chapter or a successor.

That way you can keep your fancy DA models and field them as DA when you (and everyone else) gets bored of the new dex

Karhedron
04-09-2013, 20:39
DA successors or whatever are the way to go. No need to waste the time and money you have put into the army.

I would never stop anyone playing a particular faction just because of a paintscheme and anyone who does is frankly not worth playing against.

ronin_cse
04-09-2013, 20:47
You could always ally vanilla SM in and get the best of both worlds too.

Rogue Star
04-09-2013, 20:47
Start another force?

MagicHat
04-09-2013, 20:49
I have BA and DA allies, and intend to have some RG allies as well. Painted in different colours, as homebrew chapters, and they are fluffwise from different chapters that tends to work together.

Imagine a DA librarian with Power field generator, protecting a unit of Devastator Centurions for example.

I am not a fan of having two different SM codicies painted in the same colour though, as it is confusing for the opponent (Are those assault marines using RG or BA rules?).

Leogun_91
04-09-2013, 21:06
They're you're toys. Do what you want with them. Buy the other marine codices and use their rules. Just make sure you are playing in a group that doesn't care about that kind of thing, and it doesn't matter what anyone on the internet thinks.But I care about those things, I care about the fluff too much to use a unit with an army it shouldn't be used with, I will allow my opponents to do so if they wish but my army looses its feeling with its fluff. It may not matter what the internet thinks of my army in any way that prevents me from playing it but I wasn't asking for justification but advice and anyone can give advice. I don't want to field DA as non-DA (though I was considering remaking them to codex marines), that makes it feel less like a battle in the 41st millennium and more like a game.


You could always ally vanilla SM in and get the best of both worlds too.That...seems like a great advice. Its a bit too simple in the way that I feel ashamed of not thinking of it myself but other than that it should work, allows me to use some yet unpainted marines originally bought for DA as well. I'll search through the fluff for a cool chapter to ally with, there is bound to be one that fits.

Starchild
04-09-2013, 21:22
I plan to include the new units with my Dark Angels, painted as an allied contingent from the Iron Wing company (dark grey armour with a custom icon, probably a sword on an anvil). Background be damned, I want Dark Angels who are more friendly to Techmarines, and I will get them. :evilgrin:

Centurions are appealing. Since only one model needs to be stubborn for the entire unit to benefit, I'll have a unit of three lead by a Dark Angels Techmarine, riding in a Land Raider if there is enough transport capacity. So essentially the Centurions will have Grim Resolve while the Techmarine is alive. And of course he will have the mandatory power field generator, making him and the Centurions that much more durable than regular Terminators.

My Iron Wing units will be using the Iron Hands chapter tactics, as the company name implies. I'll be modeling the Centurions as Techmarines themselves, so their red armour will be visible behind the dark grey exoskeleton of the larger suit.

I've also considered a Master of the Iron Wing, wearing the relic armour from the new codex and represented by a fourth Centurion suit. This would be a Master of the Forge, armed with a conversion beamer if that is still an option.

With a little creativity you can make any Space Marine army you want. Change the background to suit your tastes. It is your game. I prefer Dark Angels the way they are currently, so any allies from the new SM codex are just a bonus.

:skull: :chrome:

Blempoll
04-09-2013, 21:30
I plan to include the new units with my Dark Angels, painted as an allied contingent from the Iron Wing company (dark grey armour with a custom icon, probably a sword on an anvil). Background be damned, I want Dark Angels who are more friendly to Techmarines, and I will get them. :evilgrin:

Centurions are appealing. Since only one model needs to be stubborn for the entire unit to benefit, I'll have a unit of three lead by a Dark Angels Techmarine, riding in a Land Raider if there is enough transport capacity. So essentially the Centurions will have Grim Resolve while the Techmarine is alive. And of course he will have the mandatory power field generator, making him and the Centurions that much more durable than regular Terminators.

My Iron Wing units will be using the Iron Hands chapter tactics, as the company name implies. I'll be modeling the Centurions as Techmarines themselves, so their red armour will be visible behind the dark grey exoskeleton of the larger suit.

I've also considered a Master of the Iron Wing, wearing the relic armour from the new codex and represented by a fourth Centurion suit. This would be a Master of the Forge, armed with a conversion beamer if that is still an option.

With a little creativity you can make any Space Marine army you want. Change the background to suit your tastes. It is your game. I prefer Dark Angels the way they are currently, so any allies from the new SM codex are just a bonus.

:skull: :chrome:

sounding amazing..

and anything that can make the centies look better is one worth playing..

I hope you share pics one day

Techmarine
04-09-2013, 21:35
Why do variant marine armies always feel entitled to what other variant marine armies get? It always seems folks want their special snowflake marines, until a different snowflake gets new toys.

It's the reason that they're divergent in the beginning. They want to be a marine +1, and then become frustrated when they lack any options that marines have.

They want to have their cake, my cake, and eat both.

Hell, half the posts on the general forum are some stripe of marine - loyalist or not - asking for what they're 'owed'.

Blempoll
04-09-2013, 21:38
It's the reason that they're divergent in the beginning. They want to be a marine +1, and then become frustrated when they lack any options that marines have.

They want to have their cake, my cake, and eat both.

Hell, half the posts on the general forum are some stripe of marine - loyalist or not - asking for what they're 'owed'.

they also take chaos' cake too.. codex adherent are marines+1.. Divergent want to be marines+2

Techmarine
04-09-2013, 21:43
they also take chaos' cake too.. codex adherent are marines+1.. Divergent want to be marines+2

Chaos has more than enough faction-restrictive toys of their own.

Chaos players just seem to want to have everyone's cake; but with rending, a 2+/3++, FNP, marshmallow fluff.. and some vanilla ice-cream on top.

Craftworld
04-09-2013, 21:45
Chaos players just seem to want to have everyone's cake; but with rending, a 2+/3++, FNP, marshmallow fluff.. and some vanilla ice-cream on top.

I'm siggin' that. ;)

Freman Bloodglaive
04-09-2013, 22:24
Hmm, a post about Dark Angels turns into a thread bashing Chaos Marine players?

That's Warseer for you.

Charistoph
04-09-2013, 22:33
Hmm, a post about Dark Angels turns into a thread bashing Chaos Marine players?

Well, it's not like they're THAT different... ;)

When it comes to cake, just remember that it's Tzeentchian and as we all know the cake is a lie. Khorne offers cookies, but they're blood cookies shaped like skulls. Slaanesh offers brownies, no, THOSE brownies. And Nurgle offers pies, mud pies.

Techmarine
04-09-2013, 22:34
Hmm, a post about Dark Angels turns into a thread bashing Chaos Marine players?

Aren't they the essentially the same anyway? :shifty:

Seriously though, there's no Chaos bashing taking place. Entitled players come from a myriad of power-armored codices (as well as xeno), as I clearly stated.

Freman Bloodglaive
04-09-2013, 22:48
No, we Dark Angels are not in any way connected with Chaos.

Anyone who says otherwise can find what they're looking for in sub-basement 12, room 73. Just ask for Interrogator Chaplain Lucius.

Techmarine
04-09-2013, 22:51
Anyone who says otherwise can find what they're looking for in sub-basement 12, room 73. Just ask for Interrogator Chaplain Lucius.

Take a left at Luther the Chaos Champion, and go two doors down, right?

Freman Bloodglaive
04-09-2013, 23:04
I know nothing at all about any Luther.

Camman1984
04-09-2013, 23:05
I bought the dark angel part of the dark vengeance box off a friend but just didnt get on with he codex. Now i have stripped them, removed the iconography and they fit great in my vanilla army. I even converted that special edition chaplain into a bad ass looking chapter master.

cpl_hicks
04-09-2013, 23:12
But I care about those things, I care about the fluff too much to use a unit with an army it shouldn't be used with, I will allow my opponents to do so if they wish but my army looses its feeling with its fluff. It may not matter what the internet thinks of my army in any way that prevents me from playing it but I wasn't asking for justification but advice and anyone can give advice. I don't want to field DA as non-DA (though I was considering remaking them to codex marines), that makes it feel less like a battle in the 41st millennium and more like a game.

I admire your view, but to be honest it is a game and no matter how deep you get into the fluff, it's still a game. If you have the time to repaint all your minis then go and do it and don't "ask" for advice from others when all it seems you want is a validation of your own view that the DA codex is broken cause you don't get all the good toys. You want to play a fluffy army but as soon as that army is "broken" you no longer like the fluff, and want to go back to a vanilla force, this to me seems like a big contradiction.

I am a DA player and have both a DA and vanilla list, I also have Imperial Guard which I run as Canadian/catachan hybrid, but also use it as a DKOK proxy until I get my DKOK painted up.

It is ultimately our hobby and we can decided to do what we want. If you turned up at a game with DA made from lego minifigs and toilet roll tubes, as long as it was all explained I would still play you

Surgency
04-09-2013, 23:13
I love the differences between the DA book and the SM book. Finally an SM release that didn't steal everything that was cool and exciting from the DA book and make it better!

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2

ronin_cse
04-09-2013, 23:37
But I care about those things, I care about the fluff too much to use a unit with an army it shouldn't be used with, I will allow my opponents to do so if they wish but my army looses its feeling with its fluff. It may not matter what the internet thinks of my army in any way that prevents me from playing it but I wasn't asking for justification but advice and anyone can give advice. I don't want to field DA as non-DA (though I was considering remaking them to codex marines), that makes it feel less like a battle in the 41st millennium and more like a game.

That...seems like a great advice. Its a bit too simple in the way that I feel ashamed of not thinking of it myself but other than that it should work, allows me to use some yet unpainted marines originally bought for DA as well. I'll search through the fluff for a cool chapter to ally with, there is bound to be one that fits.

It's what I'm planning on doing myself. My main problem now is deciding which chapter I want to ally with :p

Losing Command
05-09-2013, 00:31
If you go for a repaint (which I would do if you really want to play vanilla marines, to avoid any possible confusion) maybe aim for a simple and quick colour scheme, like all black with the metal bits picked out (ravenguard/Ironhands) or white undercoat (white scars) I've also seen an army that was undercoated white, then washed with yellow and had the details painted for quick Imperial fist marines. It looked decent enough, if from a little distance ;) At least now you know not to buy one army and hope it's the other ! DA is all about fancy stuff with Deathwing and Ravenwing, the normal marines are just there to make them look better :p

It is hilarious however how 75% of the vanilla marine players are moaning and groaning about how they got Centurions shoe-horned into their codex, while owners of a differently flavoured marine army are whining about how they didn't get them :evilgrin: Seems that the grass in the other marine codex is always greener.

Grndhog89
05-09-2013, 00:34
I love the differences between the DA book and the SM book. Finally an SM release that didn't steal everything that was cool and exciting from the DA book and make it better!

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2

My sentiments exactly. I can not believe we were allowed to keep power field generators all to ourselves. That in and of itself is a reason for vanilla marines to be envious! Also, no terminators as troops, no similar banners, and Ravenwing seem to be a viable competitor to White Scars lists. :)

I was dreading a repeat of the 5th ed SM codex release but huzzah, Vetock saved us!

Scribe of Khorne
05-09-2013, 01:00
Hmm, a post about Dark Angels turns into a thread bashing Chaos Marine players?

That's Warseer for you.

Comically that seems to be the case, I didnt even have to show up to derail this thread, you guys started it for me!

Mit Gas
05-09-2013, 01:50
Comically that seems to be the case, I didnt even have to show up to derail this thread, you guys started it for me!

Heh, he's whinier than the whiny chaos fanboys, y'know, by whining about whining Chaos players - Xzibit would be proud of this techmarine.

If you think you'd be happier with another SM force, then just paint them differently (and if you can, file off the iconography). It's that easy - I'm sure there are many chapters that look quite similar to DA (like using robes and wings) without even being related to them in any way. It's your army after all and some of the marine minis in DV are excellent! :)

-Totenkopf-
05-09-2013, 02:01
As far as I am concerned, a marine is a marine. I don't really care what his shoulder pad says or what color it is when I play against them... They are, for the most part, the same to kill. All that changes with the book is what they can through back at me.. In all honesty, I couldn't tell if you had dark angels marines mixed with blood angels marines mixed with ultramarines... Furthermore, I couldn't tell you, or even care less what kind of weapons they are holding... When I hit a unit with precision shots, I will ask you what is what or who nasty guy is...

This is part of a bigger problem though.. There are too many space marine books and that is what causes most of these problems.. Why cant they make one big marine book and have a few pages dedicated to different chapters, or just release minor supplement books..

Paint your army in a way that pleases you and use the book you want.. (as far as marines go)

AngryAngel
05-09-2013, 02:25
I must agree, we are lucky, as DA players to actually still have our uniqueness left to us. I for one, don't care how new and special the vanilla toys are. The only thing I actually truly dislike is they got 2 viable ground to air units, as well as 2 still good aerial units. While we have, that awful flyer of ours. That's about the only thing that I dislike. So all in all, it is a good thing.

Techmarine
05-09-2013, 03:30
Heh, he's whinier than the whiny chaos fanboys, y'know, by whining about whining Chaos players - Xzibit would be proud of this techmarine.

Nobody could possibly claim that crown from you, Mit Gas. :)

I never singled out Chaos players as being entitled. It's that victim complex at work again, making it apparently seem that way.

Scribe of Khorne
05-09-2013, 03:38
i never singled out chaos players as being entitled. It's that victim complex at work again, making it apparently seem that way.


chaos players just seem to want to have everyone's cake; but with rending, a 2+/3++, fnp, marshmallow fluff.. And some vanilla ice-cream on top.

k.

Characters for the character god.

Techmarine
05-09-2013, 03:48
Hell, half the posts on the general forum are some stripe of marine - loyalist or not - asking for what they're 'owed'.


k.

Helped you out there, since you apparently missed that.

Essia
05-09-2013, 03:48
As I see it there are 3 options you can go with:
1. Do a homebrew chapter, thus keeping your mini and paintjob and add in the nice new toys in codex marine
2. Convert to Black Templars, the knight theme can work with the DA, you may need to remove some icons but that is simple.
3. Stick with Dark Angels, afterall you just need to adapt your tactic, it is still a space marine army with bolters and power armour. and tactical marines are the ones that will capture objectives and win the game for you.

FashaTheDog
05-09-2013, 03:50
Let me get this straight: you are bitter and disappointed about your predicament. You refuse to change because your models are painted and modeled as Dark Angels and that only increases your disappointment? Sounds to me like you are playing the army that best matches you so grab your bath robe and start hunting Fallen :D!

Scribe of Khorne
05-09-2013, 04:34
Helped you out there, since you apparently missed that.

I missed nothing. This was a thread, that Chaos was dragged into. I understand the plight of those fallen brothers in green, for we suffered the same fate with the 4th edition books. Why Chaos was even brought up (insultingly I may add) is a mystery to me, when we had our own threads to lament in.

Its ok though, we will carry on for another 5 years, welcome to Chaos General, we never left. :angel:

Commissar Merces
05-09-2013, 04:35
I think you should play them however you want. Personally, I would run them as DA and have space marine allies (as a successor chapter with slightly different tendencies)

Let me just say that I am a former DA player, but sold my entire collection to start a small Warriors of Chaos fantasy army and get an engagement ring. Do I regret my decision? Not really since I went 1-13-2 with my army (no seriously, I go 18-6-5 with Tyranids, but can't win with DA since 6th ed). I even gave Vetock a little ribbing about it at Gamesday. So in some regards, I understand a DA player's pain. 4th and 5th ed was kinda rough to the Unforgiven, and the newest SM codex (which I have flicked through) is a worthy tome that frankly has a lot of units that DA desperately need to be a competitive list. DA have a horrible lack of AA and very poor flyers. They really need the Stormraven. They lack MC killers like termietubbies. They lack an option for a standard captain on a bike and a Thunderfire cannon.

But what they do have is Terminator troop choices, AWESOME Black Knights AND Deathknights. If there was one saving grace, it was those unique units that really had some serious punch in the army. They also have unique wargear options and IMHO the best librarian outside of the possessed by Daemons Mephiston.

So to me, cherry pick the vanilla units you like and add them into your DA army. If you wanna use White Scar rules for your ravenwing bikes (I know I would with S5 hammer of wrath + skilled rider and hit and run to all units not in termie armor) then go for it. Then use dark angels for the deathwing side and to get black knights. Add in a flyer and a landraider or pred and you are good to go.

Grand Master Raziel
05-09-2013, 04:36
Leogun_91, I'm going to suggest that part of your dissatisfaction with the Dark Angels comes from not having employed a list that takes advantage of the synergies built into the codex. If you want some advice on how to go about doing so, give a shout out in the Dark Angels Tactica thread. I highly recommend you do so before you go hacking up already-painted models. There's some excellent stuff in Codex: Dark Angels, but you don't seem to have tapped into it as yet.

Mit Gas
05-09-2013, 09:01
Nobody could possibly claim that crown from you, Mit Gas. :)

I never singled out Chaos players as being entitled. It's that victim complex at work again, making it apparently seem that way.

You just did. That applies to both statements. :( As for me, I don't whine. I'm just saying that the Chaos one is a bad codex written by an incompetent fool who doesn't get Chaos (yes, my opinion about it is superior). I just feel like saying how bad Kelly's work is cause I enjoy it - I also still like saying how bad the Transformers movies are in the hope that one day someone will read it and cry. I'm malicious.

Freman Bloodglaive
05-09-2013, 10:38
The Chaos Codex is not a good one. The Dark Angels are reasonably good, at least as far as being internally balanced and fluffy. They are not a particularly strong army though, as of their two distinctive builds Deathwing lack numbers, and Ravenwing will probably be trumped by White Scars.

MagicHat
05-09-2013, 10:55
They lack MC killers like termietubbies.

But what they do have is Terminator troop choices, AWESOME Black Knights AND Deathknights.

TH/SS terminators and massed twinlinked plasma is not MC killers anymore?

Granted, they are not as ridiculous as Centurions, but I don't think anything should be.

Yokan
05-09-2013, 11:30
Well there's always The Fa- No sir I don't wan't to get shot sir. Yes sir, right away sir.

vlad78
05-09-2013, 13:17
It's the reason that they're divergent in the beginning. They want to be a marine +1, and then become frustrated when they lack any options that marines have.

They want to have their cake, my cake, and eat both.

Hell, half the posts on the general forum are some stripe of marine - loyalist or not - asking for what they're 'owed'.

Put every loyalist marines in the same codex and let them choose from their original legion traits and the problem will be solved.

Give red thirst and some fancy formations to blood angels but let anyone the ability to field assault companies.
Give the stubborn thing and secrecy and hate of chaos and also special formations to dark angels but let anyone field a first company or bike company.
Give special squads and sagas to space wolves but let anyone use some vet scouts.

Put in some fancy relics for everyone, some special artifact for each legion. SC who could be used in any chapter to add diversity.

They did it for the templars, they can do it to everyone else. It would give room to other xenos races and make the most flexible SM codex ever.
And no marines would feel left behind because not having the newest toys in his particular codex.

One codex to rule them all, One codex to find them,
One codex to bring them all and in the light of the Emperor bind them

Oakwolf
05-09-2013, 13:33
Well, Dark Angels were the first thing i knew about warhammer 40k, thanks to this game...so to me they'll always be special (Deathwing Company in particular)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WwOBxoaiJfU

This was awesome graphics back then :)

Commissar Merces
05-09-2013, 13:39
TH/SS terminators and massed twinlinked plasma is not MC killers anymore?

Granted, they are not as ridiculous as Centurions, but I don't think anything should be.

I meant long ranged wise. Dark Angles do have Black Knights which are really ace at killing monstrous creatures, but are better IMHO at taking down special characters and heavy support from outflanking. Specifically Tau suits of any size or that pesky chaos lord hiding behind a herd of cultists.

But really, Codex DA isn't a BAD codex per se, but it's bad when your area is saturated with Heldrake and Necron flyer spam. Even grey knights still have the upper hand IMHO.

I think if DA players cherry picks some space marine units, all will certainly be well for the Unforgiven. I am actually missing my DA army right now.

Reinholt
05-09-2013, 14:25
Wait.

I thought the answer to this question was clearly laid out in the Dark Angels codex itself, and that the OP should take a lesson from what DA feeling left behind have already done: turn traitor!

Commissar Merces
05-09-2013, 14:34
Wait.

I thought the answer to this question was clearly laid out in the Dark Angels codex itself, and that the OP should take a lesson from what DA feeling left behind have already done: turn traitor!

Heldrake or the God Emperor... it really is a hard decision :p

TheLionReturns
05-09-2013, 14:46
I canít say I am really pining for those new C:SM toys personally. If you are though just use an allied contingent. If you are not overly keen on allying with other Space Marine chapters for fluff reasons (Dark Angels donít play well with others) then I donít think it is too much of a stretch to use the C:SM list to represent an unforgiven successor chapter for your allied contingent.

Regarding the flyers I am in favour of allowing Dark Angels access to the Mortis Dreadnought from forgeworld. Two twin linked lascannons or two twin linked autocannons with skyfire and interceptor is perfectly respectable anti-air, and addresses an area the codex writers clearly dropped the ball in.

Sephillion
05-09-2013, 16:43
Leogun_91, I'm going to suggest that part of your dissatisfaction with the Dark Angels comes from not having employed a list that takes advantage of the synergies built into the codex. If you want some advice on how to go about doing so, give a shout out in the Dark Angels Tactica thread. I highly recommend you do so before you go hacking up already-painted models. There's some excellent stuff in Codex: Dark Angels, but you don't seem to have tapped into it as yet.

I agree with that. DAís strength come from the synergies between their wings and the fact that you can easily make a Termie or biker force. They have plenty of units that are great AND exclusive to them Ė the Black Knights, the DW Knights, the Darkshroud, the banners and a few of their characters and special gear.

Do you have the Codex? Itís possible the SM flyers took a hit, I havenít seen rumours on that point. And some people have found decent use for the DA flyers (with the dakka banner for instance). If you like some of the new stuff, you can always use allies.

Otherwise, I for one wouldnít mind you having marine models with a DA paint scheme or DA icons and using the SM codex, most models are almost exactly the same anyway.

FashaTheDog
05-09-2013, 17:24
Heldrake or the God Emperor... it really is a hard decision :p

Why not compromise and put a Heldrake on the Golden Throne. Behold! The God-Heldrake Emperor of the Imperium of Chaos!

Leogun_91
05-09-2013, 19:08
It's the reason that they're divergent in the beginning. They want to be a marine +1, and then become frustrated when they lack any options that marines have.

They want to have their cake, my cake, and eat both.The thing is though that I don't really want my cake, I want your cake instead. I thought I was buying chocolate cake but it turned out to be some weird licorice/chocolate fusion that I didn't like the taste of and now I'm disappointed wishing I had bought the vanilla cake in the first place.

I admire your view, but to be honest it is a game and no matter how deep you get into the fluff, it's still a game. If you have the time to repaint all your minis then go and do it and don't "ask" for advice from others when all it seems you want is a validation of your own view that the DA codex is broken cause you don't get all the good toys. You want to play a fluffy army but as soon as that army is "broken" you no longer like the fluff, and want to go back to a vanilla force, this to me seems like a big contradiction.It's not broken really but when I got the box there was far less differences between the two codexes, each had basically the same things with ravenwing and deathwing replacing vanguard veterans, landspeeder storms and rearguard veterans (and some other things), I was quite fine with that, I had bought a standard marine army with a few deviations, then the two forces split further away from each other when i got a new codex and even more when the marines got their new, I looked at the split and saw that I was on the wrong side.


Let me get this straight: you are bitter and disappointed about your predicament. You refuse to change because your models are painted and modeled as Dark Angels and that only increases your disappointment? Sounds to me like you are playing the army that best matches you so grab your bath robe and start hunting Fallen :D! Touchť


Leogun_91, I'm going to suggest that part of your dissatisfaction with the Dark Angels comes from not having employed a list that takes advantage of the synergies built into the codex. If you want some advice on how to go about doing so, give a shout out in the Dark Angels Tactica thread. I highly recommend you do so before you go hacking up already-painted models. There's some excellent stuff in Codex: Dark Angels, but you don't seem to have tapped into it as yet.Winning isn't important for me. Getting to buy the according to me coolest models in the spacemarine range when expanding does and DA isn't giving me that without breaking fluff or models, and not breaking fluff or models is also important to me.

I should probably stop arguing about this though as the perfect solution was given at page one and I will follow the sage advice I was given. Allies it is.

AngryAngel
05-09-2013, 20:42
Is such statement really needed ? He already said he had the solution. Oh as a by the way, if your going to ally with vanilla marines, remember. As you expand your ally force, before you know it you can have a separate and workable main force from your allies at some point. Then, after some time and models bought and painted, you can if you wish run vanilla as main, then ally in DA, so the army list comes full circle..

That works especially well as, one day, vanilla will grow dull, as its destined too sooner or later. Then you still have DA to spice it up with. Afterall you can only enjoy so much vanilla cake.

ronin_cse
05-09-2013, 21:02
That works especially well as, one day, vanilla will grow dull, as its destined too sooner or later. Then you still have DA to spice it up with. Afterall you can only enjoy so much vanilla cake.

Yeah but the vanilla cake can be dyed a bunch of different colors and you can use slightly different types of vanilla! :D

FashaTheDog
05-09-2013, 21:14
Yeah but the vanilla cake can be dyed a bunch of different colors and you can use slightly different types of vanilla! :D

Dyed in BLOOD! Commissar Kharn commands it! (He's a swell guy.)

Starchild
06-09-2013, 03:24
sounding amazing..

and anything that can make the centies look better is one worth playing..

I hope you share pics one day

That's the plan. I'll be using decal paper for the icon and Techmarine helmets from various kits instead of the ugly Centurion helmets. The difficult bit will be saving up the cash. :o


Winning isn't important for me. Getting to buy the according to me coolest models in the spacemarine range when expanding does and DA isn't giving me that without breaking fluff or models, and not breaking fluff or models is also important to me.

I should probably stop arguing about this though as the perfect solution was given at page one and I will follow the sage advice I was given. Allies it is.

Have you decided which set of chapter tactics you'll be using for your allied contingent? I settled on Iron Hands chapter tactics to represent the Iron Wing, but the Ravenguard seem very fitting as allies too-- and they are easy to paint.

Yokan
06-09-2013, 13:14
Dip themmin black and you're done. This is why I chose to make a sucessor chapter that uses dark green AND black. I thought black in itself was too much...Chaos.

Harwammer
06-09-2013, 18:57
I was gonna suggest painting your SM allies as space wolfs, cos of the love/hate rivallry DA and SW have butjust remembered SW got their own codex... all these space marine chapter codexes! :S

ronin_cse
06-09-2013, 19:11
I was gonna suggest painting your SM allies as space wolfs, cos of the love/hate rivallry DA and SW have butjust remembered SW got their own codex... all these space marine chapter codexes! :S




I assume that by "love/hate" you mean "burning hatred" ;-).





Sent from my Lumia 928 using Tapatalk

Harwammer
06-09-2013, 19:24
I mean love to hate :P

Edit: but they do work together! Despite their problems.

Leogun_91
06-09-2013, 20:26
That's the plan. I'll be using decal paper for the icon and Techmarine helmets from various kits instead of the ugly Centurion helmets. The difficult bit will be saving up the cash. :o



Have you decided which set of chapter tactics you'll be using for your allied contingent? I settled on Iron Hands chapter tactics to represent the Iron Wing, but the Ravenguard seem very fitting as allies too-- and they are easy to paint.Woah! Awesome! We get chapter tactics to represent different codex chapters? I haven't had time to check the new rules yet or buy the codex (didn't know if I should do so or stick to Dark Angels before the advice in this thread). Haven't decided for a chapter yet. Thinking about Red Scorpions, White Scars, Black Templars, Genesis Chapter or creating a new one, for chapter choices, don't know how that translates to chapter tactics.

Grand Master Raziel
06-09-2013, 21:06
Winning isn't important for me. Getting to buy the according to me coolest models in the spacemarine range when expanding does and DA isn't giving me that without breaking fluff or models, and not breaking fluff or models is also important to me.


Dude, seriously, you think Centurions, Storm Ravens, and Storm Talons are cooler models than Ravenwing Knights, Deathwing Knights, and the Nephilim? Well, I guess it's true what they say - there's no accounting for taste.

Evol Intent
06-09-2013, 21:13
Dude, seriously, you think Centurions, Storm Ravens, and Storm Talons are cooler models than Ravenwing Knights, Deathwing Knights, and the Nephilim? Well, I guess it's true what they say - there's no accounting for taste.

Some people like that whole 'campy 80's cartoon' look, like centurions.

I think they look hideous - like baby-carrier dreadknight quality hideous. He seems to like them though.

AngryAngel
06-09-2013, 21:36
I'm with you on the Deathwing Knights looking ace and the Black Knights being awesome. The Nephelim, I can't say I like that one. It looks good, I will give you, but its lacking in the anti air department. If its rockets weren't so poop, I would change that opinion. As it is, you pay too many pts for too little gain. Your better off with the flak shooting devs with a libby with pfg at a quad gun honestly.

Leogun_91
06-09-2013, 21:59
Dude, seriously, you think Centurions, Storm Ravens, and Storm Talons are cooler models than Ravenwing Knights, Deathwing Knights, and the Nephilim? Well, I guess it's true what they say - there's no accounting for taste.Storm Ravens and Storm Talons I find easily cooler than the Ravenwing Knights and Nephilim (I really don't care for the Nephilim). For the Centurions and Deathwing knights I could agree to the deathwing knights being a slightly better looking kit but I prefer having some terminators with cool weapons and some centurions over having lots of terminators. In addition I find the Thunderfire cannon to rank as one of the coolest weapons of the Astartes Arsenal and getting access to it more than compensates the loss of deathwing knights (though I might get both now for my allied forces).

AUN'SHI
07-09-2013, 00:48
Hi
With the release of the Dark Vengence box and an apparent interest for the chaos side from a friend I decided to try Dark Angels, I bought to boxes which we split and I got a terminator chaplain and land-speeder to fill out the options. I knew I couldn't get all the cool stuff the codex marines could but I was sure that the thunderfire cannon and the fliers would be in the next update and I could get those as allies anyways if I wanted. Then they got their new codex and while the rules were updated and improved there was still no thunderfire cannon and the awesome space marine fliers were replaced with the, in my opinion, lackluster ravenwing planes. This wasn't nice but both kinds of new knights were nice-looking so I could look pass it.
Then the new space marine codex comes and brings in lots of new cool stuff I can't use, mainly centurions and proper veterans which makes me feel the Dark Angels are even less interesting.
I'm thinking of removing the chapter symbols and repainting them to a codex chapter in order to get to use things I find cooler but there is quite some time placed in painting them and I don't like repainting my models for that very reason. I have thought about making a ravenwing list as it seems fun to play (and Sammael is a really cool model) but I don't really feel like pumping more time and money into a project that has been so much of a disappointment. I know I can just start another space marine army but then it feels like I would be rebuilding the Dark Angels army with new colours (and some cool new machines) which isn't too appealing since there are more novel project ideas in my mind. I could just add the codex stuff to the Dark Angels painted in their colour and used as allies but I feel like that would break their fluff a lot and that ruins the game somewhat for me.
So I ask for some advice in this. Some ideas on how to continue from this point.

Whats wrong with the Dark Angles? Im confused they do not suck.. (minus their flyers) I mean the stuff that regular marines can get are real cool but DA have some great stuff also.

Image getting a 4+ invulnerable save on 3 of your landraiders that is huge or even 1 land raider and 2 preds can you say stand back and shoot the poop out of a whole lot while being able to stay alive.

Troop termys is not so bad either.

Azreal with a 4+ for his entire unit hell if you want to go cheesy :D put him in a huge unit of IG and see what will even come close to hurting you.

DA are still very viable I amost want to wreck face with them just to prove it!!!!

Yokan
07-09-2013, 05:11
It's like playing pre-heresy Thousand Sons with Space Wolves as allies. Probably a lot worse actually.

Leogun_91
07-09-2013, 12:20
Whats wrong with the Dark Angles? Im confused they do not suck.. (minus their flyers) I mean the stuff that regular marines can get are real cool but DA have some great stuff also.

Image getting a 4+ invulnerable save on 3 of your landraiders that is huge or even 1 land raider and 2 preds can you say stand back and shoot the poop out of a whole lot while being able to stay alive.

Troop termys is not so bad either.

Azreal with a 4+ for his entire unit hell if you want to go cheesy :D put him in a huge unit of IG and see what will even come close to hurting you.

DA are still very viable I amost want to wreck face with them just to prove it!!!!I have no doubt in your ability to "wreck my face with them" and neither do I doubt their ability to be competative. I don't see the relevance of their possible powerbuilds however, I play to have fun and use cool models and I prefer many codex marine models over the DA alternatives. Now allies will be used to offer me both so you can rest easy in the knowledge that the angels won't be abandonned.

Yokan
07-09-2013, 15:34
Sometimes I'll be itching to charge an opponent with my army. But I only have these guys with guns and doesn't know a damn about charging an enemy. And right then I would wish I'd have Space Wolves. Of course the whole 'ally them with something else' solution would work, but I guess I'm too cheap to buy another codex for my allies.

Haravikk
07-09-2013, 15:58
Why do variant marine armies always feel entitled to what other variant marine armies get?
I both agree and disagree with this; you could argue that the Dark Angels don't need the Hunter/Stalker because the Nephilim Jetfighter is meant to be a master of the skies, which would be fine if the gameplay rules meant it was even close to being a good anti-flyer flyer, which it isn't. But even then, why would the Dark Angels rely on a single anti-air vehicle when the vanilla marines have both the Storm Talon and Storm Raven, as well as two tanks capable of anti-air? That leaves DA with two choices; Nephilim (it's not a bad all round flyer, but it's not great at anti-air), or a four Flakk Missile Launcher Devastator squad, but then that's limited to Strength 7 which is still going to struggle with the tougher flyers. Yes you can take them as allies, but it doesn't make any kind of sense that vanilla marines would have the Hunter/Stalker but DA wouldn't, and my money's on the next variant marine chapter getting them.
I think many people would have happily done without the Landspeeder Vengeance kit if it meant we got an anti-air tank, GW could even have shoved the rules in a White Dwarf for other marine chapters until they got updates, it just doesn't make any sense, and chances are DA will get it next time around, but we could really do with it now. The Landspeeder Vengeance meanwhile isn't a desperately good kit IMO, and in gameplay terms neither vehicle is all that powerful; I kind of like the dark shroud but even so it's still a 2 Hull Point armour 10 vehicle at the end of the day.

Centurions I'm not so bothered about; thematically it makes sense that chapters with less terminator armour would need an alternative, and since DA are keeping terminators with Plasma Cannons, plus the sweet Deathwing rules I think DA are just fine on that front. In short, they don't need Centurion armour. Grav weapons are a different issue, but that said they're not exactly ground-breaking for an army that can have plasma weapons on practically everything; I haven't seen exact rules and points costs but it seems that Plasma weapons may have more utility against more enemies, even if grav weapons are great against high armour, high Toughness, how much of that do you really expect to face in practice? So yeah, while I'm toying with the idea of an allied Mechanicus force with Devastator Centurions, I'm pretty happy with my guaranteed arrival Twin Linked on arrival, Deep Striking Split Firing Deathwing terminators, and Knights are pretty sweet too. Terminators as Troops is not be underestimated either as it lets you get more out of your Elites choices, and both Belial and Azrael are good characters to take in larger games.

With regards to Sternguard and Vanguard Veterans; Dark Angels don't need them, we've got Deathwing Terminators (and now Knights), and Ravenwing squadrons. I love the Sternguard kit and will probably need to combine one with the Dark Angels Veterans sprue, but in gameplay terms they aren't really a big loss. The main issue really is that our regular Veterans are just really boring; of the rumours that didn't come to fruition I was really hoping our veterans would be re-branded into something a bit more chaplain oriented, not that they're a bad choice for just shoving a chaplain into as-is, but a veteran squad with bundled 1 Wound chaplain and some more close combat options could have been sweet. But yeah, Dark Angels just have different veteran units and I'm perfectly happy with Deathwing and Ravenwing over Sternguard and Vanguard Veterans; not that they're necessarily better, just my personal preference. But come on, Terminators that can perform a guaranteed Deep Strike in turn one or two, have Twin Linked shooting when they arrive, and have Split Fire the rest of the time are nothing to sneeze at, and Deathwing Knights give you Toughness 5 armour 2+/3++ combat machines with Hammer of Wrath and a one-off Strength 10 Smite mode for anything tougher you might run into. Then you get the Ravenwing with Hit & Run, Teleport Homers as standard, and you can bundle a Land Speeder into a single slot if you want; Black Knights are no slouches either. On which note, Terminator and Ravenwing Command Squads? You can keep your regular command squads, I'm having my terminator command with 12" Feel No Pain banner thanks!

So if you were hoping to play a Dark Angels force mostly focused on the regular marine squads then sure, there aren't many big reasons to go for DA over Codex: Space Marines, but if you want terminators and/or bikes then the Dark Angels codex is very, very good for those types of lists. Ally yourself in some combination of Storm Talon, Devastator Centurions and a Hunter and you're fine, or do the opposite; build a basic contingent around Codex: Space Marines and then take any Deathwing and/or Ravenwing as allies. Paint them a bit different to distinguish and you can get a little bit of both codexes.

Freman Bloodglaive
07-09-2013, 23:42
So, if I'm reading this correctly, if you take Sammael on bike with a Librarian on bike you can potentially take two techmarines, two Ravenwing Command Squads, and two regular Command Squads?

Blempoll
08-09-2013, 02:24
So, if I'm reading this correctly, if you take Sammael on bike with a Librarian on bike you can potentially take two techmarines, two Ravenwing Command Squads, and two regular Command Squads?


and another techmarine for every command squad
and another command squad for techie
and a servitor squad for techie
and another techmarine for every command squad
and another command squad for techie
and a servitor squad for techie
and another techmarine for every command squad
and another command squad for techie
and a servitor squad for techie
<ad infinitum>



and no on command squad AND RW CS

Though you can have DWCS and CS per HQ in TDA


I did email GeeDubs when i noticed this flaw.. their reply was "Thanks for letting us know, we will do something about it".. that was day 1 of DA release.. still nowt

Freman Bloodglaive
08-09-2013, 07:23
I think it does specify that you don't get Command Squads for Techmarines, nor Techmarines for Command Squads.

I'll check my book when I get home.

Surgency
08-09-2013, 16:48
I think it does specify that you don't get Command Squads for Techmarines, nor Techmarines for Command Squads.

I'll check my book when I get home.

It does. That's why there is nothing to fix

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2

Haravikk
08-09-2013, 17:57
It does. That's why there is nothing to fix
The only "issue" is that if you take an HQ with terminator armour then you can take a Deathwing Command Squad and a Command Squad, probably the same for bikes. Not really an issue except that Azrael only gets the regular command squad despite unlocking both Deathwing and Ravenwing as Troops. Not an actual problem in the list, just a bit weird, but it's another of those things the seems to devalue Greenwing lists as you're losing an option if you take only "regular" characters.
I've tried a game with Belial, Deathwing Command with Deathwing banner and regular Command with Standard of Retribution (12" Feel No Pain), was entertaining but tied up a pretty noticeable chunks of my points :)

The main issue I have with Dark Angels though other than the lack of anti-air options, is that characters in Terminator squads are really limited in their options; knights have none, regulars only get the same options as the rest of the squad (claws or hammer and shield) and command can only take the champion if they take the halberd. Not that these are bad options, but I would have liked a few choices like a terminator sergeant with combi weapon for example. The command squad I built (before the update) has a sergeant with lightning claws which was annoying as well, as the champion can't have that, though no-one's stopped me from using them as a counts-as halberd. Not big issues, just minor things that annoyed me!

ViperGold
13-09-2013, 14:13
So been following this thread and I have to say I'm also inclined to have a bit of a moan.

It's NOT because I'm a powergamer in anyway. And I fully accept that codex creep is part if GW marketing / sales strategy; they are a company, after all, and need to make money.

What got to me is just how much poorer and underequipped the DA codex is in comparison to the SM. I didn't want the DA codex to be SM+1, what I did want was SM-1 and then +1 to make it unique. I have the privilege of owning both and have scrutinized them against each other. My observations are thus. I will try to keep them impartial and give credit to DA where it's due. I apologies for the long post.

NOT counting the HQ, black templer only and upgrade characters (eg: Telion and Chronus) SM has 8 more unit options over DA.

SM fliers are useful. DA are mediocre at best, further exaggerating the gap between the codexs

SM actually have useful (and cheap) AA, including 2 new tanks that appear very effective. That being said both take up heavily contested Heavy Support slots.

SM can get bikes as troops without having to spend 200+ on specialist HQ (WTF?!?)

SM bikes and scout bikes have teleport holmers DA don't (WTF?!?).

DA bikes DO get skilled rider, hit and run, and scout USR. SM can counter this if they take whitescars chapter tactic and they get skill rider, hit and run (to every squad bar terms and centurians), +1 jink and + 1 strength to hammer of wrath. (WTF?!?!?!?!)

DA terms are more expensive BUT to get DW assaults and split fire. SM terms cannot mix ranged and cc term squads.

So a comparison of the actual units. I will not look at unique characters only cross codex units:

All cross HQ choices (captain, librarian and chaplain) are basically the same across the board, with the exception of relic wargear, obviously, and librarians can get term armour 5 pts cheaper. However SM captain's can make bikes troops if mounted. RW command squads (black knights) are better but more expensive and you can mount an entire SM command squad for 35 pts. SM cannot take term command squads but just whack the IC in a normal term squad and you haven't lost a huge amount.

Troop choices are basically the same. But SM troops can take teleport holmers. SM scouts are slightly cheaper but have to pay 1pt for a s. rifle.

SM transports are the same as DA but they have the landspeeder storm.

SM elites are much more varied and a bit more powerful / flexible (vanguard, sternguard, ironclad dread, centurions, etc.) Cross codex stuff is very similar though, except the bonus to DW terms. SM don't have a way to make terms troops.

Assault squads are the same.

Bike squads are the same, with the points addressed above, but SM are cheaper. So are their attack bikes. Attack bikes aren't separate from the squad as in the DA codex (a blessing and a curse). Speeders are the same. SM do have scout bikes.

The Heavy support is the same but SM get more options, including flyer AA and stormravens. DA still get to keep the DW vehicle silliness but if your that worried the Iron fists chapter tactic gives all tanks it will not die USR (and feel no pain to everything else).

The chapter tactics are better then grim resolve across the board.

SM got the edge on the relics front, just, but DA still have some good (though limited) wargear. DA chapter banners are still hardcore.

All in all, with the exception of dark knights, which are awesome but expensive, and DW special rules, SM do it FAR better. Even the DW knights, with great smite attack, got pasted by centurions with twinlink flamers (or meltas) and s9 ap 2, 2 attack basic, armourbane, drills of horrificness.

DA as a codex cannot be compared to in the same way as SM, which is a real shame. I just wanted a SM codex with a bit of a difference.

Instead I'm using the SM codex and, if I particularly want my black knights / DW knights or terms I'll just ally them in. I will refuse to use certain, un-DA units that won't fit the fluff, scout bikers or normal terms, for example, and then play with that as I feel this more closely represents the DA doctrine.

On that note then, as starchild mentioned, between to 2 codexs you could make some disgusting lists, if you wanted too. Its just not my thing.

Haravikk
13-09-2013, 21:08
SM fliers are useful. DA are mediocre at best, further exaggerating the gap between the codexs
I wouldn't say DA flyers aren't useful, but the Nephilim isn't exactly great at anti-air despite being billed for that role. It is however a good all-round flyer and can hurt a lot of enemy ground targets quite happily. I actually really like the Dark Talon, as the stasis bomb can let other units ruin an enemy, and the rest of the weapons are great for massed firepower which a Deathwing force might lack. Sure there are cheaper options, but none that are flyers with masonry attached. The problem really is that the Storm Raven is too good for the points, so it sucks that this wasn't changed; the Dark Talon is still better for massed fire, but the Storm Raven is a good transport option and can still dish out a ton of punishment while being a very durable flyer, so yeah, that skews things further against the Nephilim.


SM actually have useful (and cheap) AA, including 2 new tanks that appear very effective. That being said both take up heavily contested Heavy Support slots.
While this is annoying, they're easy enough to ally in if you need them (leaving you free to take the usual goodies in your DA's three Heavy Support slots). They do however both lack Interceptor which means their utility against ground targets is poor in any turn in which the enemy has no flyers or skimmers for them to shoot at, so for anti-air I think the four Flakk Devastator squad is still the best option, and DA can get that just fine, or you can take it as an allied force (Tank Hunter from Imperial Fists could be sweet here, or the Ultramarines Devastator tactic for Relentless).


SM can get bikes as troops without having to spend 200+ on specialist HQ (WTF?!?)
They do still have to buy Kor'sarro Khan. He is much cheaper at a 75 point saving, which puts him closer to what you would be paying for a tooled up Chapter Master anyway. But yeah, Sammael is very expensive for what you're really getting out of him, it would have been much nicer to be able to run a Ravenwing Captain instead. That said, DA actually have a choice as you could take Azrael instead since he also unlocks Ravenwing as Troops, except that he unlocks Deathwing too and may be a better fit for your army, depending what exactly you go for.


SM bikes and scout bikes have teleport holmers DA don't (WTF?!?).
That's the wrong way round I think; All Ravenwing bikes come with Teleport Homers as standard, meanwhile only Codex: Space Marines Scout Bike squads can have a Locator Beacon (but have to pay for it).

[QUOTE=ViperGold;6914972]DA bikes DO get skilled rider, hit and run, and scout USR. SM can counter this if they take whitescars chapter tactic and they get skill rider, hit and run (to every squad bar terms and centurians), +1 jink and + 1 strength to hammer of wrath. (WTF?!?!?!?!)
This is where things get most annoying for Dark Angels as C:SM bikes are 6 points per model cheaper. For that discount they lose Hit & Run, Scout and Ravenwing Combat Squads, and don't come with Locator Beacons.
However, if you take the White Scars chapter tactic you get Hit & Run, plus Skilled Rider and ignoring Dangerous Terrain. This means for a six point discount they're faster (or rather, safer through terrain), better protected and just as versatile as the Ravenwing bikes except for the loss of Scout and the Locator Beacon.
But again, if you take Kor'sarro Khan, which you may as well since he's pretty cheap, in fact not much more than a tooled up HQ would be anyway, then you also get Scout back. This means that the only advantages remaining to Ravenwing squads are locator beacons and their unique organisation, the first of which is of no use if you have no deep-striking units, and the latter is a bit of a mixed up, and not necessarily worth the significant extra points. You also have Grim Resolve, but for bike squads it's tough to decide if that's strictly a bonus or not, though Hit & Run at least overrides the inability to fall back on purpose.

What the Ravenwing do still have is less models need to split into combat squads (though by the same token, less bikes in a full-size squad), and the ability to take a Land Speeder as part of the squad. They do also get a number of unique units such as Black Knights, the new Land Speeders and the command squad. The Dark Talon can also make a great supporting unit for a Ravenwing force if you have anti-air from something else.

It's a tough call, as for a purely mobile force Ravenwing have a lot more flexibility and choice, but they're more expensive and I'm not sure you get much added value for that extra cost.


DA terms are more expensive BUT to get DW assaults and split fire. SM terms cannot mix ranged and cc term squads.
Deathwing are well worth the extra five points; mixed squads, planned arrival time, Fearless and Split Fire are worth a little premium already. But you can then factor in how easy it is to have all Deathwing forces arriving without scatter thanks to heaps of Locator Beacons, access to Plasma Cannons, and Twin-Linked on the turn they arrive from Deep Strike and they're well worth the points. Access to a command squad and Knights also lets you round up a very tough Deathwing contingent. The main issues is that including Land Raiders for thematic heavy support is expensive; I do like including a Dreadnought in Drop Pods though as you can slap a Locator beacon on them and arrive in turn one, and have the Deathwing arrive turn 2 without scatter.


However SM captain's can make bikes troops if mounted.
Okay it looks like I've missed that part; that one is just plain messed up, there is no reason why SM would get this but DA wouldn't be able to do this by mounting a character on bike (though for them it'd need to be a chaplain or something which might be a bit weird). 200+ points for bike troops in DA isn't even close to fair if any regular marine army can do it for 110 (or 15 more for Khan).


SM cannot take term command squads but just whack the IC in a normal term squad and you haven't lost a huge amount.
I wouldn't underestimate the Deathwing banner; +1 Attack on all Inner Circle models in 6" is pretty sweet.


So are their attack bikes. Attack bikes aren't separate from the squad as in the DA codex (a blessing and a curse).
Not sure what you mean here? Ravenwing Attack Bikes are the same cost as in C:SM. Separation of Attack Bikes in the DA codex is a bit weird; it would have been better as an option, especially if "independent" Attack Bikes could form a unit together, but still, taking an Attack Bike and a Land Speeder in the same single slot as your bikes is very nice as both shoot separate targets. It does make the attack bike more vulnerable, but if you take several, and use them well, then they can be very dangerous to your enemy. In fact, the Attack Bike is a separate scoring unit if you take the squad as a Troops choice, though it's also potentially an extra victory point (or an easy First Blood bonus) depending upon the scenario.


Even the DW knights, with great smite attack, got pasted by centurions with twinlink flamers (or meltas) and s9 ap 2, 2 attack basic, armourbane, drills of horrificness.
Not sure where you get that idea; DW knights can Deep Strike on guaranteed turn 1 or turn 2, have the same Toughness in close combat with a 3++ save, and with Smite Mode are dishing out 8x S10 AP2 attacks plus 3x S6 attacks (all Concussive) against four Centurions 8x S9 AP2 attacks. Quite simply the knights will Wound easily, ignore the Centurion armour and kill a couple of them easily, maybe concussing one of the survivors for good measure, while suffering little in return (Centurions will only get 4 hits, ~3.33 Wounds and kill one model). I think the knights would still likely win overall, but even so; you don't really want to be sending them after Centurions anyway as you can easily bring enough plasma to bear on assault centurions before they pose any real threat.


DA as a codex cannot be compared to in the same way as SM, which is a real shame. I just wanted a SM codex with a bit of a difference.
I disagree; but the main issue is that DA have access to an extremely good mixed list. While Grim Resolve amazing, you can field both extra-elite terminators and elite bikes; although White Scars can field a force competing easily (perhaps too easily) with a Ravenwing force, it's all they can do. Take your Ravenwing force but use your locator beacons to bring in some Deathwing or anything in a Drop Pod and you could turn the tables pretty easily.

It really does suck that the White Scars can get the same, and better, rules than Ravenwing while being cheaper overall. One major problem with the Dark Angels codex is there's no particular incentive to take a pure Deathwing force or a pure Ravenwing force, and a greenwing force is just going to feel very weak compared to the new space marine chapter tactics. Really Belial and Sammael should do more for their respective units than simply unlocking them, especially in light of how expensive Ravenwing suddenly seem to be.

However, more mixed DA forces are still very powerful, and Ravenwing bikes are very strong when compared to any other C:SM chapter tactic.

Charistoph
13-09-2013, 21:23
They do still have to buy Kor'sarro Khan. He is much cheaper at a 75 point saving, which puts him closer to what you would be paying for a tooled up Chapter Master anyway.
No, they don't have to buy Khan any more than last time. All Khan does is give them Scout.

Any Captain on a Bike can make C:SM Bikers Troops. In any Detachment they are in. For any Trait (though, some Traits are less effective for them).

Oberon
13-09-2013, 21:57
Sammael does give his unit skilled rider and fearless, and Belial doesn't scatter when deepstriking, but that's about it when speaking about stuff they do for their respective units besides unlocking them.

I think darkshroud and banner of devastation help ravenwing a lot and bring ahead of white scars biker forces. I mean, RW squads shoot four times as often at 24" ranges and twice as much within 12" as white scars, with darkshroud and the obligatory Sammael you get the same 4+ jinks WS already have (and command squad/black knights has 3+), and while WS just crumble against baleflamers and the like, RW has that one squad with 4+ invul saves from the librarian/techmarine/whatever with the field generator.

I do think it's "unfair" that WS bikers have scout, hit&run and skilled riders while being cheaper, but since RW have all of that and more it doesn't feel so bad. Taking WS bikers from SM as an ally (to unlock stormtalons and thunderfire cannons for example) would be cool maybe (to gain access to third skilled riders squad or something), but at that point the WS squad would be overshadowed by their RW allies. RW synergies work only for DA, neither darkshroud nor the banner of devastation works for allies.

AngryAngel
13-09-2013, 22:14
At least they didn't totally poop all over the DA of which I'm happy. At least we have some cool stuff just for us. I personally love the black knights, and deathwing knights. I could toss our lame jet fighter, and vengeance speeder which is, awful. The sad fact is, while we have some cool stuff, we're in for a long wait for a new book and already I am sure most know, it'll be a long ride. Not nearly as long as it was last time. I just don't know why we got such awfull air support.

Charistoph
13-09-2013, 23:13
Just a crazy thought, but what would it take to model the Hunter's/Stalker's weapons on the Vengeance hull, modeling wise?

Freman Bloodglaive
14-09-2013, 00:49
Not sure where you get that idea; DW knights can Deep Strike on guaranteed turn 1 or turn 2, have the same Toughness in close combat with a 3++ save, and with Smite Mode are dishing out 8x S10 AP2 attacks plus 3x S6 attacks (all Concussive) against four Centurions 8x S9 AP2 attacks. Quite simply the knights will Wound easily, ignore the Centurion armour and kill a couple of them easily, maybe concussing one of the survivors for good measure, while suffering little in return (Centurions will only get 4 hits, ~3.33 Wounds and kill one model). I think the knights would still likely win overall, but even so; you don't really want to be sending them after Centurions anyway as you can easily bring enough plasma to bear on assault centurions before they pose any real threat.

If Deathwing Knights activate "smite" they'll kill the entire Centurion squad in one turn, WS5 versus WS4, S10 versus T5, AP2 versus 2+ no invulnerable. Of course then they'll be flailing at other enemies with power mauls, but such is life.

Grand Master Raziel
14-09-2013, 01:06
Okay, so I haven't picked up the new Codex: Space Marines yet, but I've been paying attention to what's being said about it online, and I'm just not seeing how it's so much superior to Codex: Dark Angels. Maybe I'm operating off inaccurate info, but here's how I see things.

Battle Company Army Lists
If you're talking about running a list heavy with Tac and Dev squads, I'd rather run them as Dark Angels rather than vanilla SMs of any stripe. Two reasons: The Standard of Devastation and Divination Librarians. Yes, Imperial Fists, you go ahead and keep your Bolter Drill, I'll just quadruple the firepower of my Tac Squads and have my Librarians let me reroll all misses with my Dev Squads, thank you very much. The Battle Company list doesn't make a bad list to include Azrael in, either. Have one of your Tac Squads leave one guy on KP duty back on the battle barge so Azrael has a space in their Rhino, and he can hand them out a 4++ and take the DA Warlord trait that gives FNP to a Troops choice within 3" of an objective. Good luck shifting them while they're making your units disappear with ultra-volume bolter fire.

Bike List
Also giving this to Codex: Dark Angels. Okay, Ravenwing Bikers are more expensive than their vanilla counterparts, so there's a modest advantage to vanilla-White Scars. However, again, I have to point to the Standard of Devastation and Divination Librarians. I'll pay a modest amount more per biker to get 4 times the firepower, and the Libby providing rerolls to the Typhoon Squadron (while possibly giving them a 4++ with the PFG) is no small bonus either. Then, you've got Ravenwing Knights. You White Scars can have your Bike Command Squads kitted out for close combat. Ravenwing Knights are already well equipped for close combat with their base gear, but will probably evaporate you with plasma talons before it comes to that anyway. Plus, there's the likelihood they'll hit you with rad and stasis grenades first, so you'll be fighting at penalties to Toughness, Weapon Skill, and Initiative. So, basically, if you're talking Ravenwing vs White Scars, the White Scars will probably be outshot by a considerable margin, and are probably not going to outfight the Ravenwing - at least not to an extent where it will make up for how badly they're undergunned in comparison. Storm Talons? Not impressed. It's actually one of the flyers the Nephilim compares somewhat favorably to.

Elite Troops List
Broadening the category beyond Terminators, because while vanilla Marines can't take a full Terminator list, they can run Pedro Kantor and get Sternguard as scoring units, so it's not quite a FOC-shift, but it comes pretty close. I have to admit, the Kantor/Sternguard list may be superior to the Deathwing Terminator list, but it does come with a Troops tax, and your Elites choices are locked up, whereas a DW player can use his for Dreads and Deathwing Knights. In this case the Standard of Devastation doesn't do the DA player any good, but he can run with the Standard of Fortitude instead - Terminators with FNP? Yes, please! Plus, Divination Libbies still stand out as extra-awesome with a side of awesome.

AngryAngel
14-09-2013, 03:55
Ok some points to bring up, battle company, I kind of agree. Though that edge DA only happens when you take into account the banner being alive. In generality, the more useful options would go then to vanilla marines, imo.

Bikes I give it to the Ravenwing just on support units in Black Knights are nice, and I actually like them more as a command squad, the banner is just a bonus. However vanilla does have a large bonus being 6 pts I believe it is cheaper, that's big and skilled rider on troops is pretty good.

As for the one unknown, you keep dropping divination libbys for just DA, does vanilla marines not have divination ? If so that could be a substantial bonus for the DA book. The use of PFG, is also a good piece of gear I am pleased we kept to us.

Grand Master Raziel
14-09-2013, 04:31
As for the one unknown, you keep dropping divination libbys for just DA, does vanilla marines not have divination ? If so that could be a substantial bonus for the DA book. The use of PFG, is also a good piece of gear I am pleased we kept to us.

Tigerius has it, but no one else in the book.

ViperGold
14-09-2013, 05:33
So maybe I was a touch harsh in my initial comparison, though I still think its mostly valid, I hadn't taken in to account some of the more prominent DA buffs; the standards being a big one. That being said, my issue was not really about the DA as a whole, its more about the *glaring* disparity of options between the 2 codex's that really gets to me. I want MARINES, I just want DA marines. You know; access to MOST (not all) of the SM options, but with there own DA bits in between. Make a chapters individual units unique to make the codex different, don't ignore half the units in a chapters arsenal because THAT is what makes the codex unique.

For example; DA have a thing for terminators and bikes. So I would expect them to have most of the SM bits, plus buffed terminators and bikes (which I'm more then happy to pay extra for). Everything else should be *mostly* equal to SM; wargear excluded, which should be different and individual. In the same way BA have a thing for jump packs. So give them a SM codex(ish) with buffed jump packs; just make them pay for the privilege, and change their wargear.

I see Whitescar bikers as being on par with DA; both elite. WS bikers should reflect this. But they exceed it AND get more toys to play with in the rest of the codex. That's what grates me.

I will never knock DW terms or Dark Knights, or even the banner buffs; as they are awesome and powerful in their own right. I'm just knocking the lack of other bits were missing and I feel owed (I'll put a fiver on the fact that Blood Angles and Space Wolves get most of the SM codex AND their extra buffed units. And that's cool; as long as they pay fairly for them, that's how it should be).




I am privileged enough have both codexs. Although I HATE the allies chart I see potential here for the first time. And looking at most of the core units, with the exception of minor bits they are the same. So my question is this: Should I run a DA list with SM allies?? Or visa versa?? Basically if I said I use all but the most un-DA units available to me from both codex's, just always making sure I always use the most appropriate DA type set up, which would be the better way to go about it?? Use mainly DA and allies to get access to the bits missing, OR use mainly SM with DA allies to get access to the DA specific units? The bare minimum (HQ and troop choices) would be set up the same so that no matter which dex was looked in they would be the same and with the same cost.

AngryAngel
14-09-2013, 06:38
There might be diversity In the new marine dex. Who to make main army ? I'm not sure, theres a case to be made for both. I think the biggest thing the DA lack, for allies of space marines, is decent anti flyer, so I might say hit up the storm talon in fast, and one of the anti air in heavy, or centurions as the devs. Aside from that, you can save points with space marine bikers, just pick your chapter to run with. With right set up, you can have cheaper ravenwing like bike units, with grav guns, the new hot thing. Then DA rocking solidi fire line style. I'd go so far as to say with proper set up the banner of dev makes our tac squads better just from the heavy salvo of rounds we can place downfield.

Think of it, marine allies, handle the flyers and fast moving strikes, cheaper then we can do it mono dex as DA. Then, the core of the army moves up mid field to secure objectives and pick fire lanes, salvoing away with heavy hitting bolters. Then you sweep in to clean up what the vanillas miss with Black Knights hitting hard and Deathwing pin point back up.

This is just my ideas mind you, points aren't taken into account. Just giving an idea from all this. The best part is, you can even play them true to form then. Task the vanilla marines with all the difficult tasks, then leave them to try as the DA achieves victory, making yet another tale, of betrayal as they broke off to hunt down a fallen, without word to their allies, how, grim dark.

That lack of Divination as well, now that is a big thing in our favor, divination being about my favorite powers especially on our super cheap but still good libbys.

ronin_cse
14-09-2013, 14:40
Well the OP already took the adivce of some wise sage like poster :D, so this thread is kind of off track now. However just wanted to point out that you all are missing something in the RW we WS bikes posts. Sure RW are supposed to be super elite bikers that are better than most, but you're all not considering that WS are using bikes their entire lives, just like their CT says they are effectively born in the saddle. Seriously it is part of the culture of their entire chapter not just one company within it. If RW were in fact better than WS all around then THAT would be the problem not the other way around.

Grand Master Raziel
14-09-2013, 15:30
Well, if you're talking vanilla allies to DA, I'd say the smart money would be on Tigerius, a squad of Scouts, a flying egg, and an AA tank. Tigerius because he's supposed to be an amazing deal for what you get (and he gets Divination among other things), Scouts because vanilla Scouts can be a cheap 5-man objective holder just as well as DA scouts, and the other two for anti-air. That said, I'm not seeing the Storm Talon as being particularly better for its points than the Nephilim. Yes, the Nephilim is overpriced, but it's got an additional hull point and a rack of 6 missiles over the ST. You don't necessarily need opposing flyers dead, just not hitting your ground stuff, and the Nephilim, while not awesome, is just a tad too effective to ignore.

All that said, it seems to me allied IG plugs the holes in the DA dex as well as or better than vanilla SM. Cheaper mandatory choices, for one thing. I figure the Hydra is about as good for the points as the SM AA tank (and one can take a squadron of up to 3 of them), and the Vendetta beats the flying egg hands down.

Hmm, now I'm tempted to do a counts-as-Vendetta Nephilim conversion. The Nephilim already has a twin-linked lascannon and a pair of heavy bolters. All you'd have to do is mount a couple more TLLCs on the missile racks. You could even do clever things with magnets to make them swappable with the missiles, for the time GW (hopefully) improves/downcosts the Nephilim.

Commissar Merces
14-09-2013, 16:15
Clearly the answer is WS bikes as ravenwing bikes so you can ally in order to get the stalker/hunter for air defense, something the dark angel's codex misses. HORRIBLY.

Belail
5 Vets with combi melta, drop pod
5 Deathwing termies, one assault cannon
5 deathwing termies, one assault cannon
6 Black knights
6 Black knights
6 Black knights

Khan + moondraken
5 WS Bikes, two melta guns
5 WS Bikes, two melta guns
Stalker

Unless I missed something, I think all of that fits nicely into a 2000 point army and IMHO, doesn't lose the flavor of the dark angels fluff.

Israfael
14-09-2013, 18:38
The only things I could claim to be even slightly envious of is the thunderfire, stormraven, and grav-guns.

As they can be allied in though, I'm quite pleased. I would not trade our book for theirs, despite us not being a 'power' codex.

Grand Master Raziel
14-09-2013, 20:09
Clearly the answer is WS bikes as ravenwing bikes so you can ally in order to get the stalker/hunter for air defense, something the dark angel's codex misses. HORRIBLY.

So, Ravenwing Bikers are more expensive than WS ones because their cost takes into account how they synergize with Deathwing Terminators, and you're going to use WS Bikers instead? :eyebrows:

I'm going to point out that there are some things those not hip to the full workings of Codex: Dark Angels are apparently missing. [Possibly talking out my ass]For one, Ravenwing Attack Squadrons can pull an MSU approach that, I'm guessing, vanilla Bike Squadrons can't duplicate. So, using Ravenwing Attack Squadrons instead of WS Bike Squadrons, you can field 3-man squadrons with 2 meltaguns and get the independently-functioning Attack Bike with multimelta for not much more than the 5-man WS Squadrons. Gives you better board coverage with the melta and more fast units can be used to nab objectives late game.[/Possibly talking out my ass]

For another, Sammael isn't the only character who unlocks Ravenwing Squadrons as Troops. Azrael does as well. So, Commissar Merces, if you were going to run a RW+DW heavy list such as yours, I'd use Azrael as the primary HQ, thus getting both the Ravenwing Squadrons (instead of the wannabe-RW WS Squadrons) and the Deathwing Terminators as Troops. I'd also get to choose my Warlord trait off the DA list, and be saving myself a boatload of points instead of paying a special character tax to get the allied wannabe-RW WS Squadrons. I'd spend those points on a bike Librarian, and take one of those Black Knights squadrons as a Ravenwing Command Squad, probably with the Standard of Fortitude as the list you presented us doesn't make a very good list to use the Standard of Devastation with. You even provided Azrael with a place to go in your list - he can drop in with the Vets.

Oh yeah, the Stalker, getting the Stalker was the whole point of that little exercise. Pfft. For friendly games, get the Mortis Dreadnought instead. Maybe I'm just old fashioned, but I'm actually more comfortable with players taking the odd FW unit in their armies (assuming they stop short of superheavies and such) than I am with the whole allies matrix and seeing what broken combos people can come up with via mixing-and-matching armies. So, for friendly play, it makes more sense to me to take the FW unit (the Mortis) instead of allying in a contingent of vanilla Marines. Simpler, easier, cheaper, and you don't have to use two dexes and/or explain why the DAs are getting so cozy with other chapters. As far as tournament play goes, I wouldn't bet money against most TOs allowing DA players to take the Mortis, and for those that don't and/or the hardcorp tourney player, IG probably makes a more powerful combo with DAs anyway.


I would not trade our book for theirs, despite us not being a 'power' codex.

I had this thought today: Those of us who stuck with Codex: Dark Angels are accustomed to having a dex that's a lot worse than the vanilla dex. Now we have a dex that the conventional wisdom seems to think is not as good. Going from a lot worse to not as good is still a significant step up for us.

Exorcist
14-09-2013, 21:05
Why would anyone complain if they get a dex for their army? I own the DA codex, and i quite like it. Its written well and the armies you can build are fluffy and effective.

jceresa2
14-09-2013, 21:27
Why would anyone complain if they get a dex for their army? I own the DA codex, and i quite like it. Its written well and the armies you can build are fluffy and effective.
The people who are complaining are more than likely the people who haven't been playing the army for years. While there are a few WTF things in our new codex(like apothecaries forgetting to pack a bolt pistol) it is a major step in the right direction to keep our codex unique and interesting.

Freman Bloodglaive
15-09-2013, 00:40
I really like the Dark Angels Codex, and it has to be said that my favourite Space Marine faction (currently) is the Black Templars even though (as even players acknowledge) it is one of the weaker set of options.

I guess I'm just like an army that allows me lots of options, and a Black Templar army led by a bike Captain and Master of the Forge would give the maximum amount of FOC fiddling that Marines are capable of.

Dark Angels have a similar range of possibilities, and I think I might paint up my Azrael model.

ronin_cse
15-09-2013, 04:12
Well, if you're talking vanilla allies to DA, I'd say the smart money would be on Tigerius, a squad of Scouts, a flying egg, and an AA tank. Tigerius because he's supposed to be an amazing deal for what you get (and he gets Divination among other things), Scouts because vanilla Scouts can be a cheap 5-man objective holder just as well as DA scouts, and the other two for anti-air. That said, I'm not seeing the Storm Talon as being particularly better for its points than the Nephilim. Yes, the Nephilim is overpriced, but it's got an additional hull point and a rack of 6 missiles over the ST. You don't necessarily need opposing flyers dead, just not hitting your ground stuff, and the Nephilim, while not awesome, is just a tad too effective to ignore.

All that said, it seems to me allied IG plugs the holes in the DA dex as well as or better than vanilla SM. Cheaper mandatory choices, for one thing. I figure the Hydra is about as good for the points as the SM AA tank (and one can take a squadron of up to 3 of them), and the Vendetta beats the flying egg hands down.

Hmm, now I'm tempted to do a counts-as-Vendetta Nephilim conversion. The Nephilim already has a twin-linked lascannon and a pair of heavy bolters. All you'd have to do is mount a couple more TLLCs on the missile racks. You could even do clever things with magnets to make them swappable with the missiles, for the time GW (hopefully) improves/downcosts the Nephilim.

Heh yeah and don't forget that if you ally IG and take Azrael he can give an entire blob of guardsmen a 4++.

TheDungen
15-09-2013, 11:31
No, we Dark Angels are not in any way connected with Chaos.

Anyone who says otherwise can find what they're looking for in sub-basement 12, room 73. Just ask for Interrogator Chaplain Lucius.


Shouldn't that be room 101?

maze ironheart
15-09-2013, 11:44
Hi
With the release of the Dark Vengence box and an apparent interest for the chaos side from a friend I decided to try Dark Angels, I bought to boxes which we split and I got a terminator chaplain and land-speeder to fill out the options. I knew I couldn't get all the cool stuff the codex marines could but I was sure that the thunderfire cannon and the fliers would be in the next update and I could get those as allies anyways if I wanted. Then they got their new codex and while the rules were updated and improved there was still no thunderfire cannon and the awesome space marine fliers were replaced with the, in my opinion, lackluster ravenwing planes. This wasn't nice but both kinds of new knights were nice-looking so I could look pass it.
Then the new space marine codex comes and brings in lots of new cool stuff I can't use, mainly centurions and proper veterans which makes me feel the Dark Angels are even less interesting.
I'm thinking of removing the chapter symbols and repainting them to a codex chapter in order to get to use things I find cooler but there is quite some time placed in painting them and I don't like repainting my models for that very reason. I have thought about making a ravenwing list as it seems fun to play (and Sammael is a really cool model) but I don't really feel like pumping more time and money into a project that has been so much of a disappointment. I know I can just start another space marine army but then it feels like I would be rebuilding the Dark Angels army with new colours (and some cool new machines) which isn't too appealing since there are more novel project ideas in my mind. I could just add the codex stuff to the Dark Angels painted in their colour and used as allies but I feel like that would break their fluff a lot and that ruins the game somewhat for me.
So I ask for some advice in this. Some ideas on how to continue from this point.


Welcome to the your in a starter box so we gotta simplify your codex so newbie's don't get confused.

Freman Bloodglaive
15-09-2013, 12:00
Shouldn't that be room 101?

I couldn't possibly say.

Commissar Merces
15-09-2013, 15:01
So, Ravenwing Bikers are more expensive than WS ones because their cost takes into account how they synergize with Deathwing Terminators, and you're going to use WS Bikers instead? :eyebrows:

I'm going to point out that there are some things those not hip to the full workings of Codex: Dark Angels are apparently missing. [Possibly talking out my ass]For one, Ravenwing Attack Squadrons can pull an MSU approach that, I'm guessing, vanilla Bike Squadrons can't duplicate. So, using Ravenwing Attack Squadrons instead of WS Bike Squadrons, you can field 3-man squadrons with 2 meltaguns and get the independently-functioning Attack Bike with multimelta for not much more than the 5-man WS Squadrons. Gives you better board coverage with the melta and more fast units can be used to nab objectives late game.[/Possibly talking out my ass]

For another, Sammael isn't the only character who unlocks Ravenwing Squadrons as Troops. Azrael does as well. So, Commissar Merces, if you were going to run a RW+DW heavy list such as yours, I'd use Azrael as the primary HQ, thus getting both the Ravenwing Squadrons (instead of the wannabe-RW WS Squadrons) and the Deathwing Terminators as Troops. I'd also get to choose my Warlord trait off the DA list, and be saving myself a boatload of points instead of paying a special character tax to get the allied wannabe-RW WS Squadrons. I'd spend those points on a bike Librarian, and take one of those Black Knights squadrons as a Ravenwing Command Squad, probably with the Standard of Fortitude as the list you presented us doesn't make a very good list to use the Standard of Devastation with. You even provided Azrael with a place to go in your list - he can drop in with the Vets.

Oh yeah, the Stalker, getting the Stalker was the whole point of that little exercise. Pfft. For friendly games, get the Mortis Dreadnought instead. Maybe I'm just old fashioned, but I'm actually more comfortable with players taking the odd FW unit in their armies (assuming they stop short of superheavies and such) than I am with the whole allies matrix and seeing what broken combos people can come up with via mixing-and-matching armies. So, for friendly play, it makes more sense to me to take the FW unit (the Mortis) instead of allying in a contingent of vanilla Marines. Simpler, easier, cheaper, and you don't have to use two dexes and/or explain why the DAs are getting so cozy with other chapters. As far as tournament play goes, I wouldn't bet money against most TOs allowing DA players to take the Mortis, and for those that don't and/or the hardcorp tourney player, IG probably makes a more powerful combo with DAs anyway.



I had this thought today: Those of us who stuck with Codex: Dark Angels are accustomed to having a dex that's a lot worse than the vanilla dex. Now we have a dex that the conventional wisdom seems to think is not as good. Going from a lot worse to not as good is still a significant step up for us.

You are fundamentally wrong on a lot of these points, but let me address the points you are right on. I do believe IG are a more beneficial ally for DA. I completely 100% agree with that, but I am trying to give the original poster and anyone who wants to stick with the original DA fluff a way to optimize their list while not forsaking or compensating fluff. Historically, DA don't play well with others right? This option allows for a player to use RW bikes for cheaper, better special rules, and did I mention cheaper? Sammael is extremely expensive with very little upside IMHO. I know he is immune to instate death, has a fancy sword and a plasma cannon, but his points were always too weighty for my taste and many others. If DA were allowed to have a cheap captain to make RW troops, I would feel differently.

The Mortis dread is a perfect example of why some people are so opposed to forgeworld. It seems like the only viable forgeworld unit out there is the Mortis dread. One unit simply can't be the answer for the DA difficulty dealing with flyers and frankly I know plenty of people/tournaments that don't allow FW to be used so the point is kind of moot. It's an argument you constantly hear but it isn't a good one. Your argument that forgeworld is seemingly better than allies is a debatable point and not entirely true, especially in this example, where you are not sacrificing anything in terms of fluff, but rather using a different rules set for ravenwing bikes. What is the problem here?

As for your critique of the army list, I encourage you to go back and think about it again.

Belail
5 Vets with combi melta, drop pod
5 Deathwing termies, one assault cannon
5 deathwing termies, one assault cannon
6 Black knights
6 Black knights
6 Black knights

Khan + moondraken
5 WS Bikes, two melta guns
5 WS Bikes, two melta guns
Stalker

You accuse me of taking away the RW synergy with the DW, yet you are for from the truth! Three units of blackknights still have teleport homers, and in this specific case, just how many homers do you realistically need? Belial doesn't scatter with a unit of termies, the drop prod generally doesn't even need a homer if you are a savvy player, which leaves you with one squad of terminators for THREE teleport homers. That isn't good enough?

Finally, yes Azrael can unlock both, but again, look at the points cost. Also, why would you ever deep strike Azrael in with a suicidal melta gun drop. You wouldn't. If anything, you would put him in a veteran squad with 10 combi plasmas and drop him in. Problem with Azrael is he doesn't fit synergy wise with the DW, RW build because he doesn't have the ability really to deepstrike (unless in a pod) or move 12' and turbo boost. He is a fine character, but not in a pure DW RW army.

You do have me on the banners though, but again, what is stopping you from taking one of you take WS/RW from codex space marine?

Grand Master Raziel
15-09-2013, 16:59
You are fundamentally wrong on a lot of these points, but let me address the points you are right on. I do believe IG are a more beneficial ally for DA. I completely 100% agree with that, but I am trying to give the original poster and anyone who wants to stick with the original DA fluff a way to optimize their list while not forsaking or compensating fluff. Historically, DA don't play well with others right? This option allows for a player to use RW bikes for cheaper, better special rules, and did I mention cheaper? Sammael is extremely expensive with very little upside IMHO. I know he is immune to instate death, has a fancy sword and a plasma cannon, but his points were always too weighty for my taste and many others. If DA were allowed to have a cheap captain to make RW troops, I would feel differently.

I mostly object because the WS bikers only seem like a better choice on the surface. Trying to use them in place of RW bikers leads to bad lists that can't take advantage of the synergies built into Codex: Dark Angels. I'll give you cheaper, but one of the things you're paying for with the RW bikers is the potential to crank out 2-4x the firepower when within the effect envelope of the Standard of Devastation, or get FNP rolls when within the envelope for the Standard of Fortitude - or heck, auto-pass Hit and Run rolls when near the Ravenwing Standard.


The Mortis dread is a perfect example of why some people are so opposed to forgeworld. It seems like the only viable forgeworld unit out there is the Mortis dread. One unit simply can't be the answer for the DA difficulty dealing with flyers and frankly I know plenty of people/tournaments that don't allow FW to be used so the point is kind of moot. It's an argument you constantly hear but it isn't a good one. Your argument that forgeworld is seemingly better than allies is a debatable point and not entirely true, especially in this example, where you are not sacrificing anything in terms of fluff, but rather using a different rules set for ravenwing bikes. What is the problem here?

Financial, for one thing. Your approach requires the player to invest in not one, but two ridiculously expensive books. Another is this approach leads to bad list design. You may have saved points by contriving to have WS bikers count as RW bikers, but it leads to a weaker overall list than what you'd have if you just properly used Codex: Dark Angels in the first place. I don't see your issue with the Mortis Dread. It fills the same role as the Stalker and it's fluffy for DA players to take. If a tourney organizer doesn't want to let you take it, it can always stand in as a standard rifleman Dread, which would still be at least a modest threat to most flyers, with the upside of being a more significant threat to ground targets than the Stalker.


You accuse me of taking away the RW synergy with the DW, yet you are for from the truth! Three units of blackknights still have teleport homers, and in this specific case, just how many homers do you realistically need? Belial doesn't scatter with a unit of termies, the drop prod generally doesn't even need a homer if you are a savvy player, which leaves you with one squad of terminators for THREE teleport homers. That isn't good enough?

Not really. You've over-invested in RW Knights to compensate for the wannabe-RW squadrons not having teleport homers. This has led to an overall lack of firepower that's going to hurt you if you play against anything other than relatively elite armies. You've also taken what's widely considered one of the worst special characters in Codex: Dark Angels to get the Deathwing Squads as Troops and have one that doesn't scatter.


Finally, yes Azrael can unlock both, but again, look at the points cost. Also, why would you ever deep strike Azrael in with a suicidal melta gun drop. You wouldn't. If anything, you would put him in a veteran squad with 10 combi plasmas and drop him in. Problem with Azrael is he doesn't fit synergy wise with the DW, RW build because he doesn't have the ability really to deepstrike (unless in a pod) or move 12' and turbo boost. He is a fine character, but not in a pure DW RW army.

Not particularly seeing the problem, as your list isn't a pure DW/RW army anyway. Don't want Azrael with a suicide melta squad? Not a problem. Using Azrael instead of the Belial/Korsarro-in-DA-disguise route will save you enough points to beef up the Veteran unit to make a good home for him. Or, he can stay with it just long enough to go link up with a DWT Squad. You've got options, and using Azrael seems a heck of a lot smarter and more points-efficient than using Belial+Sammael-wannabe-Korsarro.


You do have me on the banners though, but again, what is stopping you from taking one of you take WS/RW from codex space marine?

Well, for one thing, the Sacred Standards only work for units with Codex: Dark Angels. Since they're a hefty investment, you'd want them to work on the broadest amount of units possible. Your list has a hefty chunk of points and a couple significant units that cannot gain any benefit from the DA standards.

Nutshelling it, "saving" points by using WS rules for bikers instead of RW rules is a penny-wise pound-foolish approach. Sure, you save some points, but you lose a lot of hitting power. Taking your list as an example, you could have a Standard of Devastation for the price of about 1.5 Ravenwing Knights - call it 2 RWKs to upgrade one to an Apothecary. Move some points around to MSU the melta-armed bikers (or just take MMABs) so you can have a couple 6-man RW squadrons to capitalize on the SoD. Choose HQs as appropriate, depending on how badly you want both RW and DW as Troops.

Oh yes, the Stalker. Well, instead of taking the Stalker, why not just take an Aegis Defense Line with a quad-gun? Stick a small unit of Scouts in there, and they can hunker down and provide anti-air with Interceptor thrown in.