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View Full Version : Who says CC is dead?



matt_17
05-09-2013, 23:22
This weekend past was the South African Nationals tournament in Cape Town. It was won by a friend of mine playing Daemons. That's right, pure daemons. In 6th ed. 6-0, curb stomping every opponent throughout the tournament. He beat Tau, Blood Angels, Space Marines, Necrons, Imperial Guard and Eldar/Tau.

His list

Daemon Prince of Slaanesh - With, well, everything. Really, everything.

10 Plaguebearers
10 Plaguebearers
10 Plaguebearers
10 Horrors

15 Flesh Hounds
15 Flesh Hounds
15 Flesh Hounds

Soul Grinder of Slaanesh - Torrent Flamer
Soul Grinder of Slaanesh - Torrent Flamer

90% of the top players had optimized their lists to win shooting battles - expecting to be up against other shooting armies. But no one, no one at all, had enough shooting to handle the speed and ferocity of his army. You get a shooting phase, maybe two if you're playing hammer and anvil and your positioning and luck are both spectacular. Then he's on you. If you don't have specialist CC (which very few of the top players took) then you're finished.

My 2 thirsters, soul grinder and vendettas could have taken him (as they did in our warm up games back in Port Elizabeth), the guy with 3 heldrakes had a decent chance to beat him and the country's top ork player might have managed it on playing skill, weight of fire and potential for a worthwhile counter offensive. But the heldrake player messed up his first couple of games and was never high enough in points to be paired with the those daemons and while the orks and myself were playing on the top tables (finishd, 4th and 5th respectively) the luck of the tournament draw meant he didn't have to play us. No one else even slowed him down.

Take that, internet wisdom. Shooting is king, but only if the opposition CC isn't really, really good at it.

Inquisitor Shego
05-09-2013, 23:38
I currently run a Daemon army that's predominantly fun. It works out something like...

Blood Thirster + Exalted + Greater

15 Blood Letters
20 Daemonettes + Herald + Beguilement
20 Daemonettes + Herald + Beguilement
20 Daemonettes + Herald + Beguilement
10 Plague Bearers
10 Plague Bearers

10 Seekers of Slaanesh

2 x Soul Grinder of Nurgle

It puts down so many bodies most folk get overwhelmed, and really kicks butt. However there are some massive problems I encounter. Namely, mech, and cover.

Cover gives me a 4+ cover save, but also gives me difficult terrain. This slows most of my army down considerably, and with the exception of Slaaneshi Daemonettes getting their spring on, I can quickly get my horde caught in a quagmire. Secondly, I have major problems with transports. If I blow them up, usually the blast radius from the CC attacks kills more daemonettes than a good enemy turn of shooting. However, I also had yesterday 2 daemonettes + 1 herald wipe out a unit of vets led by Harker, so solidly entrenched that CC was the only sane way to kill them. Sometimes, nibbling is good.

On one note though: I don't use allies. It feels.... untheamy for my Daemons

matt_17
05-09-2013, 23:53
The hounds are beast which means they don't get slowed by difficult terrain and at T4 and 2 wounds each, they're quite happy to be standing next to an exploding transport... and then eat the dudes who were inside.

Inquisitor Shego
05-09-2013, 23:58
The hounds are beast which means they don't get slowed by difficult terrain and at T4 and 2 wounds each, they're quite happy to be standing next to an exploding transport... and then eat the dudes who were inside.

Worth 30 quid for 5? Or do you proxy/use alternatives?

Freman Bloodglaive
06-09-2013, 00:06
And the plural of anecdote is what?

Yes Daemons are good at combat, as far as I can tell that's all they do, but really it's like the guy who says that armour isn't dead because he took a bunch of Leman Russes and no one could kill them all. Yes, if you spam a whole bunch of cheap fearless invulnerable saved bodies that specialise in close combat and hurl them right at the enemy so you overwhelm their ability to actually kill them you'll do well.

Tournament armies are generally based on maximising the player's chances against the widest varieties of enemies, not at combating a limited number of gimmick lists.

Oh, and Slaanesh Daemon Prince and no Slaanesh Daemons? -1 for theme.

EDIT: Also, having been on the receiving end of Daemon melee I have to say that I don't know of any army that can field enough dedicated close combat troops to stop them once they get into combat. Perhaps Grey Knights, if they take Coteaz and a bunch of death cult assassins, but then you're sacrificing the range to deal with all the other armies out there.

Menthak
06-09-2013, 00:16
And the plural of anecdote is what?

Yes Daemons are good at combat, as far as I can tell that's all they do, but really it's like the guy who says that armour isn't dead because he took a bunch of Leman Russes and no one could kill them all. Yes, if you spam a whole bunch of cheap fearless invulnerable saved bodies that specialise in close combat and hurl them right at the enemy so you overwhelm their ability to actually kill them you'll do well.

Tournament armies are generally based on maximising the player's chances against the widest varieties of enemies, not at combating a limited number of gimmick lists.

Oh, and Slaanesh Daemon Prince and no Slaanesh Daemons? -1 for theme.

EDIT: Also, having been on the receiving end of Daemon melee I have to say that I don't know of any army that can field enough dedicated close combat troops to stop them once they get into combat. Perhaps Grey Knights, if they take Coteaz and a bunch of death cult assassins, but then you're sacrificing the range to deal with all the other armies out there.

Not much of a Grey Knights player, but surely the best thing to take against Daemons would be regular Grey knights?

xera32
06-09-2013, 00:21
Worth 30 quid for 5? Or do you proxy/use alternatives?

Use fantasy dire wolves or chaos warhounds. Half the price, double the models and in plastic. Never encountered someone who didn't think they were fleshhounds when put on the table. Model size is similar and base size is the same.

Ruination Drinker
06-09-2013, 05:48
45 Flesh Hounds sounds like a total nightmare to deal with.

Scammel
06-09-2013, 06:16
Take that, internet wisdom.

Internet wisdom has it that Daemons are not only rather powerful but one of if not the only race capable of running a CC list successfully in a competitive environment, often by spamming Flesh Hounds. So yes, well done for confirming the internet wisdom.

Israfael
06-09-2013, 06:38
Internet wisdom has it that Daemons are not only rather powerful but one of if not the only race capable of running a CC list successfully in a competitive environment, often by spamming Flesh Hounds. So yes, well done for confirming the internet wisdom.

Er, yeah- I second this.

You seem to simply be confirming the very wisdom you're mocking.

Blempoll
06-09-2013, 07:38
Who says CC is dead?

non-mech orks. (even with mek, they will die in droves getting from the BW to CC)

Bezerkers.

Non-MC Nids.

Bloodletters.

other dedicated CC armies or dedicated CC units that arent fleshhounds.




Take that, internet wisdom. Shooting is king, but only if the opposition CC isn't really, really good at it.

Shooting IS king.. as you need to pull cheese out your ass to do well with CC

KR3LL
06-09-2013, 09:10
I have been rocking it with mono nurgle daemons. All close combat...all nom nom nom.

Blempoll
06-09-2013, 10:12
I have been rocking it with mono nurgle daemons. All close combat...all nom nom nom.

t5 5++ and 5+ FnP helps them greatly there and that is just the Bearers..

CrownAxe
06-09-2013, 10:24
t5 5++ and 5+ FnP helps them greatly there and that is just the Bearers..

i wish they still had t5 and fnp. now they''re T4 and you have to buy a decked out herald to give them fnp

Menthak
06-09-2013, 10:41
I think what everyone is trying to say is: Congratulations, your mate beat other spam lists without themes, with a spam list with no theme. But at least his was in melee.

Congrats to your friend on the tournament win

gwarsh41
09-09-2013, 20:53
I was going to respond with, "Someone who obviously has never fought chaos daemons" A decked out Lord of change can whoop the crap out of half an army on it's own. In a recent 1000pt game, my LoC took out most of my opponents CSM force, including his black mace prince.
I played the same guy last week at 750pt and I brought a unit of 5 plague drones. He brought the same prince. My drones ate that prince for the nurgle version of breafast (partially thanks to a daemon weapon mishap roll). An Iron arm GUO is just about unstoppable outside of tarpits and magic fancy stuff (jaws or force weapons)


For the most part though, CC is dead. consider how many people play chaos daemons in comparison to everything else. Daemons will always pop up as a thorn in sides, and win tournaments here and there. The super hardcore people stay away from it because of all the random ****. Random **** is why I stay with the book though!

Lightning Strike!
09-09-2013, 20:59
So, your friend defied internet wisdom by spamming flesh hounds. Yet the 'internet wisdom' claims that they're one of the few - if not the only - viable assault-themed lists.

Hrmm..