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Xerkics
07-09-2013, 00:59
I just got a digital codex and leafed through and it first glance what struck me is that there isnt really any new stuff apart from centurions and the hunter tank. I was kind of expecting new chapter specific units but other than crusaders there doesnt seem anything else. Am i the only one who thinks this codex didnt really add anything that couldnt be solved by a faq giving sm flakk? Like it feels like whats there doesnt really warrant a new book? It seems like a lot of stuff was left out so they could sell chapter supplements.

I did enjoy the audio in various places, but considering how little the book actually adds the exorbitant price is extremely unwarranted.

P.S: and centurions ?whats up with that suddenly terminator armour isnt the best armour available out of the blue?

The Emperor
07-09-2013, 01:39
I was under the impression that Centurion armor only gave a 2+ save and didn't offer an Invulnerable Save. Doesn't that still make Terminator Armor the best armor?

Freakiq
07-09-2013, 02:05
Really liking the focus on the first founding and their successors.

Cant seem to find the inbuilt army-builder though.

ehlijen
07-09-2013, 04:23
Termie armour gives 2+, an invul while Centurion armour gives 2+ and better toughness.

Protection wise, they're about equal, ie inferior to artificer armour. True, arty armour doesn't give an invul save, but its most likely wearer has a good one anyway and it comes with none of the drawbacks that termie and centurion armour bring (no bulkyness, can sweep, grenades, all the power armour mobility options, wider weapon selection).

Sephillion
07-09-2013, 04:36
Well there are chapter tactics, no? That must be a big deal. And new weapons (grav) and artifacts. I think it's better this way, the SM army is mostly complete as it is.

The Emperor
07-09-2013, 04:40
Oh yeah? What's the Toughness on a Centurion?

ChaplainAvorus96
07-09-2013, 04:50
A Centurion is strength and toughness 5 but as said before they do not have an invul save and the max size unit is 6 per slot

Scribe of Khorne
07-09-2013, 05:15
The fluff is marine ****. I cant say a single thing I have read or heard is positive.

Fingers
07-09-2013, 05:18
but considering how little the book actually adds the exorbitant price is extremely unwarranted.

Id have paid the equal price for my Chaos Marine codex if it gave me the ability to play Legion specific armies :)

Looking forward to getting it for a nice change of pace army, either Salamanders or Black Templars if they have cool rules. Also I hear TFC are pretty nasty now gaining barrage.

K3nn3rs
07-09-2013, 06:28
I disagree with the OP, though will admit that is based of what I've read here, though at this this late stage it appears to be largely based on fact.
Whilst perhaps not perfect the codex seems to add plenty of options, flexibility and the ability to theme your army- stuff that marine players (and I believe chaos marine players....) have been after for a while.
A simple FAQ would not have provided that.
I'm personally looking forward to seeing the additional fluff and using the inbuilt army list builder.

Samurai33
07-09-2013, 07:16
Anyone with the enhanced digital version find where the Force requsition/army builder is? Looked through the whole book and it's either not there or very well hidden...

Tae
07-09-2013, 08:23
Anyone with the enhanced digital version find where the Force requsition/army builder is? Looked through the whole book and it's either not there or very well hidden...

GW Digital's Facebook page said it was missing due to issues with the Apple store. It should arrive as an update shortly.

However even then it will only be a beta as they want to get user feedback on it. Apparently.

ThePope
07-09-2013, 08:38
GW Digital's Facebook page said it was missing due to issues with the Apple store. It should arrive as an update shortly.

However even then it will only be a beta as they want to get user feedback on it. Apparently.

This is the only reason I got the digital edition, can't believe they didn't launch with it. I was going mad trying to find it.

K3nn3rs
07-09-2013, 08:41
That's pretty poor form from GW.....

Latro_
07-09-2013, 08:48
My dark angels army (counts as) is pretty generic and a full conversion resulted in like 30pts saved and using the IF tactics so bolter drill/devi tank hunters. The pts saving is mainly due to face i have deathwing (again counts as).

So all in all for me it feels very much like the DA book (costwise) and the real thing that stands out are the chapter tactics. I have termies, scouts with bolters, tac marines and devis so the IF chapter tactics are pretty neat for my army.

Bit miffed by the relics, they seem really overcosted and a bit bland.

All in all it 'feels' like same old marines with chapter tactics the standout.

Also 'the field of battle' comes up far to much heh

T10
07-09-2013, 09:29
Id have paid the equal price for my Chaos Marine codex if it gave me the ability to play Legion specific armies :)


It does. Just not the way you would want it to. Want to play Black Legion? Pick an army and paint it black. Want Word Bearers instead? Paint it red. Don't think cult space marines fit the army concept? Don't take them.

Grocklock
07-09-2013, 09:33
GW Digital's Facebook page said it was missing due to issues with the Apple store. It should arrive as an update shortly.

However even then it will only be a beta as they want to get user feedback on it. Apparently.

Can u link to this information?

Grocklock
07-09-2013, 09:46
Can u link to this information?

No worries found it. But it looks like its a technical fault at apples end rather then GW messing up. While the feature is not available at launch it will come in the weeks coming. But rather then leave you hanging around for a couple of weeks they will release it as they do it.

Also they are open to feed back.

While its sad that it is not available at launch hey are being open and honest and giving it to you as they design it and they want your feedback as they design it.

MajorWesJanson
07-09-2013, 10:08
Bit miffed by the relics, they seem really overcosted and a bit bland.

All in all it 'feels' like same old marines with chapter tactics the standout.



Marines are so iconic/core that there is no real room for major shifts in their army, just evolution.

As for the relics, the cost on most of them is about right (Armor is a tad high for a one phase per game 2++, and the banner is expensive) but the two swords and shield are well worth the points, and the bolter is quite cheap and has its uses. As for generic, they are supposed to be, more generic relics that could show up in any of the chapter's armory, rather than chapter specific stuff which will show up in various supplements.

Latro_
07-09-2013, 13:09
yea your are right i guess, they'v not really moved on 'that' much from 3rd. I guess its a personal thing with me investing a lot in characters but i do think the pts you can put into a marine captain/chapter master you are prolly better with a libby as most other armies a similar pted character will rip him apart in CC.

I am really looking forward to seeing the effect of bolter drill since my army has a lot of meat an potatoe units.

I like what they did with the scouts with the small reduction to normal ones over sniper scouts, its only 10pts but it makes you think.. esp with bolter drill.

Freman Bloodglaive
07-09-2013, 13:24
From the sounds of things I owe Robin Cruddace an apology. I was quite unhappy when I heard some of the rumours.

That said, unless they have a model for Kor'Sarro Khan on bike I'm going to stick with switching to Dark Angels. I do like their fluff.

Even then I can get a Khan model and play my bikes as either.

MajorWesJanson
07-09-2013, 13:29
From the sounds of things I owe Robin Cruddace an apology. I was quite unhappy when I heard some of the rumours.

That said, unless they have a model for Kor'Sarro Khan on bike I'm going to stick with switching to Dark Angels. I do like their fluff.

Even then I can get a Khan model and play my bikes as either.

I'm customizing up/painting a Master of the Ravenwing Jetbike model to run as variously Khan on Moondrakken, Sammael, or a Chapter Master on bike a I feel like it.

Dr Morbius
07-09-2013, 15:03
Did read through my copy just now and must say it is a nice codex. There are definitely some ncie ideas already in my head for builds. And isn't this what a new codex is about?

When I first looked through my daemon codex, I did not have any ideas (although they are my primary army) and actually wondered how I could field them without been wiped out by turn 3.

This new SM codex however, puts ideas in my head right away and I will certainly give it a thumbs up.

The Marshel
07-09-2013, 15:42
P.S: and centurions ?whats up with that suddenly terminator armour isnt the best armour available out of the blue?

While I don't want to derail the thread, this is something I've just posted in a different thread in regards to my own opinion on the relationship between Centurions and Terminators:


I think fluff wise something to consider is that the centurions are essentially poor man's terminators. to make up for the fact that they can not produce armour to the same quality of terminator armour any more, chapters could instead be relying more on the more blunt centurion armour. Because it lacks a degree of protection you get from termi armour, they literally make it as thick as possible to make up for it. This in turn makes them larger, slower and far less flexible.

If the imperium could manufacture terminator armour they'd have no real reason to exist, but the imperium can't manufacture terminator armour. As far as I understand they can make these. So from what I'd read into it, a key niche for centurions are situations where a chapter can't or wont risk their terminator armour, but still need the heavy infantry support terminator armour provides.

As for the models themselves, they do imo look rather like "poor man's" terminator armour, and I actually quite like them for it.

Just to be clear, this is my opinion on how Centurion armour fits into the space marine structure, based on the official background and a bit of reading between the lines and deduction. There is no official fluff saying in plain English that Centurions are essentially expandable terminators (or expandable dreadnoughts for that matter), but I would argue that Centurion armour is clearly inferior to terminator armour within the confines of the setting. From this perspective I actually really like the Centurions (but the assault ones still look kinda tacky).

As for the other new rules, I quite like that most everything is generally a little cheaper, and there appear to be no serious nerfs that would drastically change how the army worked before this new codex. I'm especially pleased to see that not only is the mounted assault rule unchanged, but it's also been given to the chapter master, which I've thought was a bit of an odd rules gap in the older book. I think the relics are interesting, I'm not hugely fussed by the warlord traits (never have been with any warlord traits really) and I'm ecstatic over cheapish ML 2 Liberians. And of course, chapter tactics is a great new addition to the codex that will really help to protect us from future BA, SW and DA books being marines +1 (as BA primarily were last edition). I'm pleased that the new AA units are cheap enough to justify a non interceptor AA unit and I love that LSS are now dedicated transports.

I am disappointed that command squads no longer able to take special weapons and I hope that's an error, but I'm not getting my hopes up. I think Assault centurions are very overwhelming and don't find the stalker terribly interesting either (which is a shame given that's half the new units) but dev cents and the hunter make up for that. I'm a little annoyed by how chapter tactics means I'll be very unlikely to squeeze telion into my army without having to play "ultramarines" but small price to pay really.

I was hoping for a full range of special weapons on assault squads and a more customizable honour guard (rather then the current incarnation that is designed specifically to represent the UM honour guard) but this was wish listing really.

Overall its a very passive release. Nothing has really changed much outside of chapter tactics. I highly doubt what made the best marine armies before the update will change much after the update. IMO for the competitive scene the main differance is that we now have a tool to deal with some of the more recent nasty builds like triple riptides. for the more casual gamers though, I see this book opening up a lot of new builds. Devastators could be very useful under IF tactics, bike builds with White Scars tactics will be very powerful and Raven Guard tactics will really help players looking for a more foot slogging, jump pack marine focus. UM tactics are being wildly hailed but i dont think they're that appealing tbh. salamanders don't encourage much of a change in army build beyond adding more flamers, so I could see Sallies and UM tactics being the "defualts" for players not looking to build based on their chapter tactics.

Tebrey
07-09-2013, 15:58
pg 164: Any Veteran may take items from the Melee Weapons and/ or Ranged Weapons lists.

Voss
07-09-2013, 16:06
That's pretty poor form from GW.....
Sounds more like poor form from apple


The fluff is marine ****. I cant say a single thing I have read or heard is positive.

There is quite a lot. And each chapter has 7-8 pages, with a couple extra pages on successor chapters (BTs are treated like a first founding in this regard).


I'm pretty pleased with it. Some of the formatting has some issues, mostly for people choosing not to read the caveats that appear above or before the text they are looking at (such as ignoring that you have to swap bolters for heavy/special weapons), and doing combined heavy weapon lists (with caveats for heavy flamers) was probably a mistake.

Chapter Tactics was a major game changer, and there are lot of little things that make a big difference. But as far as units go, I wouldn't have expected major changes in the first place.

Scamshouse
07-09-2013, 16:09
I agree with the OP. My first thought is, can I take this back for a refund I seem to have bought the 5th edition codex again. This has left me cold. GW need to get some new codex writers.

Losing Command
07-09-2013, 20:39
The most changes have been to the fluff section. It's no longer a ultramarine fanfic with every other marine crying themselves to sleep wishing they were Ultramarines. In the rules section there have been quite some subtle changes, and those were the only ones really needed (except maybe for giving Barrage to Thunderfirecannons) like Chapter Masters having +1 W and A, weapon options no longer being mandatory and for 10 man only for tacticals, devastators point cost are now good instead of way to much, some wargear added (flakk, auspex, grav guns and relics) command squads for every HQ now instead of only captains, techmarine no longer eats a whole elite slot, stormtalon and raven entries are now actually in the codex ... if all the changes would have been done with a FAQ is would make it far to complicated for beginners to play space marines.

Mojaco
07-09-2013, 20:56
Nice book so far. Recently i gave my index astartes books away, and it seems i won't miss them; the fluff in this book is very deep and complete. The rules changes are a bit too minimal imo (i like change for change sake, but realise I'm probably the minority), but the biggest most important rules, the ones that define chapters, seem to be done really well.

If only the Chaos codex.., nah never mind.

Miredorf
07-09-2013, 20:58
pg 164: Any Veteran may take items from the Melee Weapons and/ or Ranged Weapons lists.

So whats up with this quote? Does veteran incluye command squads or not? ^^

Sgt John Keel
07-09-2013, 21:14
So whats up with this quote? Does veteran incluye command squads or not? ^^

The line is from the Command Squad entry (which consists of Veterans). Ranged Weapons are pistols, storm bolters and combi-weapons though, not Special Weapons.

Miredorf
07-09-2013, 21:26
The line is from the Command Squad entry (which consists of Veterans). Ranged Weapons are pistols, storm bolters and combi-weapons though, not Special Weapons.

Uggh that really sucks... I guess my veteran with meltagun will have to be using a combi melta from now on..

A different question.. Did the armies got cheaper really? i hear now it is more or less the same as before once you factor in the common upgrades?

Xerkics
07-09-2013, 21:41
While mechanically its a sound book there is nothing really there that grabs me like chaos marine book did .it reminds me of a dwarf book reprint for fantasy so some balance changes while otherwise the same book. Im worried they left stuff out so they could make money of supplements.

Telemachus
07-09-2013, 21:43
What are peoples thoughts on the Hunter/Stalker? What looks like the better of the two builds?

Cheers

totgeboren
07-09-2013, 21:45
All in all I like the new codex, though I'm disappointed that they kept the artificer armour upgrade for Captains and Chapter Masters. It's a stupid upgrade because no one will ever field a Captain without the upgrade (except if they field a character in termie armour, which also gives a 2+ save, though it removes the ability to sweep). No-brainers are bad upgrades.

duffybear1988
07-09-2013, 21:51
What are peoples thoughts on the Hunter/Stalker? What looks like the better of the two builds?

Cheers

Neither is that great. The flyers are still better.

Telemachus
07-09-2013, 21:54
Neither is that great. The flyers are still better.

Thanks for that :)

The Emperor
07-09-2013, 22:02
Is it permissible to take a Chapter Master and use him as a regular Captain when playing a chapter that already has a named Chapter Master (I.E. Marneus Calgar)? I'd like my Captain of the 3rd Battle Company to be tougher than normal.

Xerkics
07-09-2013, 22:06
The new anti air tanks are pretty cheap though they cost like 5 marines and are armour 12 so not too bad.

TheDungen
07-09-2013, 22:25
the new tacticals and veterans are awesome but the centurions are truly abominations.

Khorneguy
07-09-2013, 22:44
All in all I like the new codex, though I'm disappointed that they kept the artificer armour upgrade for Captains and Chapter Masters. It's a stupid upgrade because no one will ever field a Captain without the upgrade (except if they field a character in termie armour, which also gives a 2+ save, though it removes the ability to sweep). No-brainers are bad upgrades.

That's a pretty sweeping statement. Although it's a good choice, there are a few times when you might want to go without. You might want to save points in a small game, for example. Or maybe your opponent uses a lot of Grav Weapons and you want a little more protection from it. Or your opponent is a Necron player who uses a lot of models with Entropic Strike, so you see it as a pointless upgrade anyway.

Yes, it may be a no-brainer 9 times out of 10, but the flexibility's there for that tenth time. That's not even touching on the possibility that you might not want the Artificer Armour for fluff reasons (you're playing a newly founded chapter that doesn't have its own stocks of ancient suits, for example)

lethlis
07-09-2013, 22:57
Is it permissible to take a Chapter Master and use him as a regular Captain when playing a chapter that already has a named Chapter Master (I.E. Marneus Calgar)? I'd like my Captain of the 3rd Battle Company to be tougher than normal.

Why not? Marneus is only the most recent chapter master. The ultramarines I am sure have had at least 1-2 hundred in the last 10'000 years.

RanaldLoec
07-09-2013, 23:01
I've just noticed that an eReader codex priced at 29.99 has become available for non apple phones and tablets.

There is also a cheap electronic rulebook at 20 and eldar eCodex for 21.99

Looks like GeeDub finally realised that there's a big customer base for non Apple users. :rolleyes:

Xerkics
07-09-2013, 23:17
In their defence there is a lot of audio but as Ebook should be cheaper to start with the ipad digital version is way overpriced

RanaldLoec
07-09-2013, 23:28
In their defence there is a lot of audio but as Ebook should be cheaper to start with the ipad digital version is way overpriced

I was speaking to the staff member at the digital products stand at UK games day last year. He said non apple products where coming but said I'd be waiting about a year.

Turned out he was right

Its not criticism at all I think a 20 eRulebook is a great product to finally have access to.

No more "what does that rule actually say moments" I''ll have the answer on my smart phone.

Freman Bloodglaive
07-09-2013, 23:32
The line is from the Command Squad entry (which consists of Veterans). Ranged Weapons are pistols, storm bolters and combi-weapons though, not Special Weapons.

So Dark Angel Command Squads, which can take special weapons, actually have an advantage over Space Marines?

RanaldLoec
07-09-2013, 23:37
So Dark Angel Command Squads, which can take special weapons, actually have an advantage over Space Marines?

Yeah unless it's a small over sight.

But as it stands the first and the oldest chapter and there successors get special weapons.

We just get much reduced in points honour guard instead :D

Bonzai
07-09-2013, 23:54
I just had a chance to go over mine. Over all I think they did a good job, and fixed two of my biggest complains about the old codex.

1. It is no longer Codex: Ultra Marines. They really took some time and devoted pages to all the primary chapters.

2. Chapter Tactics are no longer character dependant. That really irked me about the last codex. Raven Guard should not forget how to act like Raven Guard when Shrike isn't around. Problem solved, and brings a lot of diversity to the dex.

Over all it was pretty much an update. The new tanks serve a niche, which is good. The new Centurions... well... whatever. There are only two other things I would have liked to see.

1. An Iron Hands character. Just for consistancy. However the Supplement may take care of that issue.

2. Hvy Flamers as a Hvy weapon choice. They did for devastators and sternguard, but what I really wanted was to get them on tacticals. Still there is hope, a Salamanders Supplement might just deliver.

Col. Dash
07-09-2013, 23:56
My first impression of the book is great. My initial negative was the accompanying releases. Ten TAC marines 39.99 sure, a bit much not jaw dropping. 5 man Sternguard, 25-30 bucks ok, wait what? $50? Are you ***** kidding me? I can go with $50 if it was 10 guys and sprue with every weapon option they can get. Glad most of my army is built. They really are pricing themselves out of the market. That aside, codex looks really good, art is nice even if it is very Ultramoron specific.

One thing I do like is the game's overall meta is forcing marine forces to actually play and look like the fluff. The very viable strategies now match what they are supposed to be, shock and lightning assault and not drag out knockdown attrition battles. Note this is for pure forces, not silly lame ally shenanigans.

The Emperor
08-09-2013, 00:26
Eh, I like the Centurions. Especially once I realized that Siege Drills aren't Unwieldy, so the Assault Centurions strike in Initiative order with Str 9, AP 2 weapons. I also love the fusillade of fire that Devastator Centurions can put out with Grav Cannons and Hurricane Bolters.

ChaplainAvorus96
08-09-2013, 01:18
The Centurions are one of those units that has good rules but the Models are just....odd. I like them to a degree and I think its the legs for me. I may get some and make them devastator versions, the Assault ones...I dont think I can tolerate the drills under the fists. I wouldve thought they would be the fist.

I really like this book, fluff is great, and so far I am liking the play style of a combined Crimson Fists and Black Templar force :D

Voss
08-09-2013, 02:19
Neither is that great. The flyers are still better.
Pretty much this. The stormtalon does better at dedicated anti-air. The hunter/stalker comes in if you're light on points (because the talon does need to spend at least some points to upgrade the heavy bolters to something functional) and have an opportunity to do list tailoring. If you're facing light flyers, the stalker is better, if you're facing AV 12 flyers, the hunter is much better. Really, it would have made more sense to do a single AA tank with a 'dispersed fire' (more shots) and 'concentrated fire' (better AP) option, rather than the multi-target rule. The current rule on the stalker seems to exist to split 8 dice at a pair of ground targets when you have nothing better to do. Which is a shame, since I really like the look of the model.

Archon of Death
08-09-2013, 06:09
Initial Impressions (my own):

No Iron Hands character... really? But, oh yeah, the Ultramarines get a Tank Commander (THAT'S OUR AREA), Scout, Sear Chaplain, Librarian, Captain and Master................. COME ON! Scars, Firelizards (Salamanders), Ravenclaw (Raven Guard), Fists (2), and Templars (3 and an entire squad) all got someone. That's 5 of the 9 Legions. Leaving out Furries (Codex), Emokids (Codex), Red Emokids (Codex) and the Rusty Mittens (Nothing, we get nothing).

THE ONLY LEGION THAT CURRENTLY STANDS WITH NO UNIQUE CHARACTERS, Iron Hands. Thank you, GW, so much.

totgeboren
08-09-2013, 08:53
That's a pretty sweeping statement. Although it's a good choice, there are a few times when you might want to go without. You might want to save points in a small game, for example. Or maybe your opponent uses a lot of Grav Weapons and you want a little more protection from it. Or your opponent is a Necron player who uses a lot of models with Entropic Strike, so you see it as a pointless upgrade anyway.

Yes, it may be a no-brainer 9 times out of 10, but the flexibility's there for that tenth time. That's not even touching on the possibility that you might not want the Artificer Armour for fluff reasons (you're playing a newly founded chapter that doesn't have its own stocks of ancient suits, for example)

I do understand what you mean, but I think it was a pretty good design to remove the option of a 2+ power armour from the CSM book. In the CSM book, if you want 2+ you need Termie armour, meaning you will take a lot of room in transports, be on foot and can't sweep. If you want to be on a bike or have a jump pack, you have to give up your 2+ save. If you want to take up little room in a transport and mix in with PA models, you need power armour. People still take bikes a lot of the time, but termi lords are pretty popular too, meaning the choice is meaningful, and lords on foot leading squads assaulting out of Land Raiders do make an appearance sometimes (maybe not often though).

Except for fluff reasons, I think we will see a silly amount of Chapter Masters/Captains on bikes with a 2+ save, as SM don't need to make a choice because of the artificer armour. They get to have their cake and eat it too, which is bad game design, and also forces everyone to use Ap2 close combat weapons even more. I think powerswords are cool, but stupid options like the artificer armour make them pointless.

Camman1984
08-09-2013, 09:10
Not so keen on the way special characters work, still makes it feel a bit like codex ultramarines. If you want to field ultramarines you have about 6 characters to play with, if you want to play with one of the other 1st foundings you have one (except the poor iron hands) and if you want to field a weirdly over represented 2nd founding, black templars have 3. I know a lot of people arent keen on special characters but it was nice to be able to mix them around a bit just like every other codex ever released allowed.

Iron_Lord
08-09-2013, 09:19
Black Templars have only 2: Helbrecht and Grimaldus.

The third 2nd Founding character in the book is Pedro Kanto, the Crimson Fist Chapter Master.

Poseidal
08-09-2013, 09:32
Centurions seem good against any vehicle. Two of them shooting, I would expect to kill any 3HP vehicle in one turn, three shooting 4HP, before factoring in using the Missile Launcher upgrade if you have it.

They are also better against multiwound MCs than traditional AT firepower. They lose out in range, but I consider them more effective against both those targets than a Lascannon.

Thunderfire cannon is just mental. I would take one at +50 points, if I had the model.

I got two land speeder storms to go with the 10 close combat scouts I had. I would like it to have a Heavy Flamer, but the model didn't come with one, though the HB basic I guess is decent (and can fire along with the blinding rocket it has).

EDIT:

Also, looking through the gallery, the Centurions make the Terminators look really lithe and graceful. They really are Termitubbies / Fat Terminators.

duffybear1988
08-09-2013, 10:09
Can crusader squad sergeants buy combi weapons?

A.T.
08-09-2013, 11:12
Can crusader squad sergeants buy combi weapons?Yes, they are basic squad vets.

Archon of Death
08-09-2013, 11:51
Black Templars have only 2: Helbrecht and Grimaldus.

The third 2nd Founding character in the book is Pedro Kanto, the Crimson Fist Chapter Master.

I'm counting him in Fists (as he uses the fists rules), and yes Templars have 3 using their rules, you forgot The Emperor's Champion. And, yes, I'm counting second founding with whomever's rules they are using, I'd taken Brazen Claws as an Iron Hands character ~_~

Freman Bloodglaive
08-09-2013, 12:57
Black Templar's Crusader squads appear to still be able to field five man squads with a heavy and special. There doesn't seem to be anything prohibiting them from using normal Tactical and Scout squads either.

ChaplainAvorus96
08-09-2013, 15:55
Maybe the Ultramarines are compensating for something with all those Special chars ;) .

On a serious note I managed to get a game in with my Crimson Fists and Templar created chapter. Lost the game by three points but thats what happens when the other guy has good rolls with It Will Not Die on a heldrake. Some thoughts from the game:

Pedro Kantor: The biggest thing I like is the increase of wounds! It saved him from dieing a horrible death at the hands of the Helldrake. Other than that not much of his other stuff came into play in this game (game was a kill point so my two Sternguard Squads were scoring for no reason lol)

Emperors Champion: He is truly boss in a Challenge, though I did not get a chance to throw him at a Chaos Lord, he punked a unit Champion and cut down the last of his squad. He is good at what he does i will tell you that much, still need to test him against a Lord or something.

IF Chapter Tactics: Pretty darn good! Bolter Drill saved a couple rounds of shooting I had with my tac squads, and Tank Hunters would've been great....if I had remember it (sigh) to busy raging at the Helldrake at the time I guess...

Grav Guns: Used two in the game, I was hoping to grav his oblits but the deployment style was long board. I did get to shoot the Grav Guns at the Drake though, Locked its Velocity in my first round of shots!

Overall fun game, and some of the new stuff worked well! Obviously need more games in to feel things out more but the changes are great so far!

shaw3029
08-09-2013, 16:30
I picked up the codex today and had a quick flick through,

My 1500pt list is now 1575pts for less.

Vindicators are now more expensive, thunder hammer terminators are now more which I don't mind I always thought they should go up in points.

Lysander went up and got worse? No bolter drill, no stubborn & no bolster defences. The best thing about him was eternal warrior but that can be purchased as a special storm shield for 50 odd points.

Tactical marines appear cheaper at first glance. But they work out exactly the same as before when you add in some special weapons and war gear.

Just seems like the codex is a quick update without adding anything really new. Chapter tactical are great and adds some individuality to each chapter. I don't like how you can't take a special character and use them under another chapter. Ultramarines have 7 and the others have 1. Would have been nice to add in a couple new special characters. I wonder if the new rumoured supplements will have any.

Time to completely re invent my list! I would be more annoyed if I wasn't playing a heresy army. At least forge world really know how to nail it!

Jind_Singh
08-09-2013, 19:29
I picked up the book yesterday and was initially overwhelmed as I didn't know where to start reading the book - MASSIVE amounts of pages, stories, artwork - was drooling for about 15 minutes!

But once the excitement died down I delved into the book and here are my initial thoughts...

General View

Overall a solid move from the last book - much needed points tweaks to fix issues like TH/SS Terms, Razorbacks, etc, and allowing us to use 5 Marines with special/or heavy weapons, price fixes on HQ choices as the previous 100pts for everything was not good. Was happy with changes to Legion of the Dammed, Chapter Master improvements, standard points for special/heavy weapons. Move of Techmarines to not using any HQ slots was great, the nice price point of Venerable Dreads actually makes them worthwhile now! Chapter Tactics, as many have mentioned, are really well crafted and it did make me sad for Chaos Marines who could have had something similar - I know that Marks of Chaos do help somewhat, but they must surely be peeved that Loyalist Marines still remember who their Fathers were - and they are all dead - where as the Traitor scum's daddy's are still alive and kicking - yet no one remembers their gene seed! Vanguard are even affordable now having seen close to 33% off their cost and while they can't assualt on the turn they come in, they are still useful enough that expect to see them on the table from time to time. Stern Guard, thankfully, did not see a points decrease as they were a well priced unit to begin with, one of the better choices the old book at, so it's good to see them remain at their points (assuming you take 10 combi-weapons as a lot of players I knew did, if you take specialist ammo then you actually see a SLIGHT decrease in points). Thunderfire cannons are down right scary now - thanks to barrage upgrade. BEST CHANGE BY FAR IS ALLOWANCE OF LAND SPEEDER STORMS AS DEDICATED TRANSPORTS!!! WHOOT WHOOT!

Was disappointed with some options like Command Squads - can't take special weapons and did not go down in price - why would anyone use a command squad as there are so many better squads to take in their stead! Vindicators were not that great in the 1st place and the points increase made no sense, and even though it was going to happen it still hurt that Drop Pods and basic Land Raiders now only have a transport capacity of 10!! My biggest loss though is the ability to choose to fail morale checks - this has been a staple of my tactics for so long now that it's going to take the biggest adjustment for me to learn how to play Marines in a new way. I played a quick 650 point game with 25 Tactical Marines and a Terminator Captain against Orks (battlebox contents plus a Warboss in Mega Armor) and boy did I miss being able to high tail out of combats in the enemy player's turn so I could shoot the squad up before returning to combat!


New Units

What I like about the new units are that they are good but not compulsory! Sure the Centurions are great for what they do but they come with a price tag, and being Imperial Fists (who re-roll 1's for bolters/heavy Bolters) the stock Devastator version has me interested as it's almost guaranteed to hit with all the shots - not bad for a few hundred points! But add in the heavy weapons and you soon notice the hit on the points, makes a Land Raider look cheap! Having said that I'm in the assembly phase right now and I'm torn between the lascannons and Gravs - while Gravs are amazing vs good saves the games when you face 6+ save hordes the unit will hinder your list as you do invest a lot of points - and being just T5 with a 2+ save doesn't make them invulnerable - a wise enemy player will have no troubles taking them out. Having access to night vision is great though. The actual models are a lot better in person than on the pics - and I've seen some good posing from buddies as they all frantically assembled them yesterday.

New tanks - the Hunter is the clear winner here - sure the Stalker has 4 TL auto-cannon shots but the Hunter has armor bane which is HUGE as well as the funky missile lock rule that lets the missile trail after the target! If I was to take one of the variants it'd be the Hunter for sure, but it's not an interceptor so BOTH tanks will have limited roles - play an enemy with no fliers and your points go down the drain - so again this is why I feel that they won't be seen in each and every game as most players prefer units that can be used in all situations (so Ageies lines and the new AA bunker will still be better choices when it comes to AA fire).

Conclusion

All in all a fantastic book as it's done the one thing that needed doing...it took what was already a solid book (which had some over-priced options), and evened the points playing field - so what you'll most likely see going forwards are a lot more VARIED Space Marine lists as players won't be penalized for taking certain units from their books.

Chapter Tactics have added a subtle and uniqueness that is refreshing for Codex Marine players, and brings in player pride for their Chapter - for years locals here have had specific Chapters painted up at my local store (Imperial Fists, Ultramarines, Iron Hands, White Scars, Salamanders, Hawk Lords) but now they get to play their armies with more pride!

Mortimer
08-09-2013, 20:15
why would anyone use a command squad as there are so many better squads to take in their stead!

Considering they don't take an FOC slot and elites have become even more precious, a squad the captain can run around with isnt all that bad if you have the spare points.

Camman1984
08-09-2013, 20:31
My army just got cheaper by 160 points (1750->1590) devs and bikes save my lots of points

Retrospectus
08-09-2013, 20:56
if you take specialist ammo then you actually see a SLIGHT decrease in points).

wait, does this mean sternguard don't get specialist ammo as standard anymore?

Ssilmath
08-09-2013, 20:58
wait, does this mean sternguard don't get specialist ammo as standard anymore?

No, it just means it's actually expensive to spam combi weapons and employ suicide veteran squads.

Freman Bloodglaive
08-09-2013, 21:40
Was disappointed with some options like Command Squads - can't take special weapons and did not go down in price - why would anyone use a command squad as there are so many better squads to take in their stead!

I just ran the points on a biker command squad (three lightning claws, two power fists, five storm shields) and it's 280, which is a saving of nearly 100 points from the last time I counted them, and every model now has melee upgrades. That said, the apothecary was always the dangerous member of the squad.

Lantern
08-09-2013, 21:47
Maybe the Ultramarines are compensating for something with all those Special chars ;) .


I'm actually wondering if your not far from the truth there, at least in comparison to the other big chapters. It could be that when these extra characters were added, it was due to Ultramarines (and other codex chapters) being boxed in by their own structure and that this was a way of adding special 'units' without actually changing thier codex structure, in the way that Angels have Deathwing/Ravenwing, Blood Angels have Death Company, Librarian Dreadnoughts, etc. It's also worth remembering that when Telion and Chronus were added, all the codex chapters could field them, as up till then, Ultramarines had a fairly modest 4 special characters, in line with most other armies. It's only now, as the new wave of chapter tactics come into play, that shareable characters could lead to the usual abuse that many 'too good' combos fall foul to.

Ventus
08-09-2013, 21:51
Question on the apothecary. Can an apothecary take a storm shield? I know he was a veteran and is now upgraded to an apothecary but does he still count as a veteran for equipment purposes?

Freman Bloodglaive
08-09-2013, 22:03
Question on the apothecary. Can an apothecary take a storm shield? I know he was a veteran and is now upgraded to an apothecary but does he still count as a veteran for equipment purposes?

No, he's not a Veteran, he's an Apothecary.

RanaldLoec
08-09-2013, 22:06
I picked up the book yesterday and was initially overwhelmed as I didn't know where to start reading the book - MASSIVE amounts of pages, stories, artwork - was drooling for about 15 minutes!

But once the excitement died down I delved into the book and here are my initial thoughts...

General View

Overall a solid move from the last book - much needed points tweaks to fix issues like TH/SS Terms, Razorbacks, etc, and allowing us to use 5 Marines with special/or heavy weapons, price fixes on HQ choices as the previous 100pts for everything was not good. Was happy with changes to Legion of the Dammed, Chapter Master improvements, standard points for special/heavy weapons. Move of Techmarines to not using any HQ slots was great, the nice price point of Venerable Dreads actually makes them worthwhile now! Chapter Tactics, as many have mentioned, are really well crafted and it did make me sad for Chaos Marines who could have had something similar - I know that Marks of Chaos do help somewhat, but they must surely be peeved that Loyalist Marines still remember who their Fathers were - and they are all dead - where as the Traitor scum's daddy's are still alive and kicking - yet no one remembers their gene seed! Vanguard are even affordable now having seen close to 33% off their cost and while they can't assualt on the turn they come in, they are still useful enough that expect to see them on the table from time to time. Stern Guard, thankfully, did not see a points decrease as they were a well priced unit to begin with, one of the better choices the old book at, so it's good to see them remain at their points (assuming you take 10 combi-weapons as a lot of players I knew did, if you take specialist ammo then you actually see a SLIGHT decrease in points). Thunderfire cannons are down right scary now - thanks to barrage upgrade. BEST CHANGE BY FAR IS ALLOWANCE OF LAND SPEEDER STORMS AS DEDICATED TRANSPORTS!!! WHOOT WHOOT!

Was disappointed with some options like Command Squads - can't take special weapons and did not go down in price - why would anyone use a command squad as there are so many better squads to take in their stead! Vindicators were not that great in the 1st place and the points increase made no sense, and even though it was going to happen it still hurt that Drop Pods and basic Land Raiders now only have a transport capacity of 10!! My biggest loss though is the ability to choose to fail morale checks - this has been a staple of my tactics for so long now that it's going to take the biggest adjustment for me to learn how to play Marines in a new way. I played a quick 650 point game with 25 Tactical Marines and a Terminator Captain against Orks (battlebox contents plus a Warboss in Mega Armor) and boy did I miss being able to high tail out of combats in the enemy player's turn so I could shoot the squad up before returning to combat!


New Units

What I like about the new units are that they are good but not compulsory! Sure the Centurions are great for what they do but they come with a price tag, and being Imperial Fists (who re-roll 1's for bolters/heavy Bolters) the stock Devastator version has me interested as it's almost guaranteed to hit with all the shots - not bad for a few hundred points! But add in the heavy weapons and you soon notice the hit on the points, makes a Land Raider look cheap! Having said that I'm in the assembly phase right now and I'm torn between the lascannons and Gravs - while Gravs are amazing vs good saves the games when you face 6+ save hordes the unit will hinder your list as you do invest a lot of points - and being just T5 with a 2+ save doesn't make them invulnerable - a wise enemy player will have no troubles taking them out. Having access to night vision is great though. The actual models are a lot better in person than on the pics - and I've seen some good posing from buddies as they all frantically assembled them yesterday.

New tanks - the Hunter is the clear winner here - sure the Stalker has 4 TL auto-cannon shots but the Hunter has armor bane which is HUGE as well as the funky missile lock rule that lets the missile trail after the target! If I was to take one of the variants it'd be the Hunter for sure, but it's not an interceptor so BOTH tanks will have limited roles - play an enemy with no fliers and your points go down the drain - so again this is why I feel that they won't be seen in each and every game as most players prefer units that can be used in all situations (so Ageies lines and the new AA bunker will still be better choices when it comes to AA fire).

Conclusion

All in all a fantastic book as it's done the one thing that needed doing...it took what was already a solid book (which had some over-priced options), and evened the points playing field - so what you'll most likely see going forwards are a lot more VARIED Space Marine lists as players won't be penalized for taking certain units from their books.

Chapter Tactics have added a subtle and uniqueness that is refreshing for Codex Marine players, and brings in player pride for their Chapter - for years locals here have had specific Chapters painted up at my local store (Imperial Fists, Ultramarines, Iron Hands, White Scars, Salamanders, Hawk Lords) but now they get to play their armies with more pride!



Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2

Archon of Death
08-09-2013, 22:09
That sounds about right based on the language in the codex. For instance: MOTF is under the heading of Techmarine in the units section, but then under Techmarine in the rules it says that you may take one for each HQ selection, not including Techmarines and yadda yadda, if you don't take it one hundred percent by the text then you cannot have one if you take a MotF, which is absolute drivel.

Ssilmath
08-09-2013, 22:12
No, he's not a Veteran, he's an Apothecary.

Nothing prevents him from being given equipment as a veteran, and then upgrading to an Apothecary. It only adds a Narthecium to his wargear. A similar logic was applied to Nobz, who are upgraded and given their Power Klaw before the squad upgrades to Shootas (Which would replace the Choppa and Slugga and prevent the purchase of melee upgrades). Probably needs FAQ'd though, unless it's already be done with the Dark Angels.

Freman Bloodglaive
08-09-2013, 22:14
Nothing prevents him from being given equipment as a veteran, and then upgrading to an Apothecary. It only adds a Narthecium to his wargear. A similar logic was applied to Nobz, who are upgraded and given their Power Klaw before the squad upgrades to Shootas (Which would replace the Choppa and Slugga and prevent the purchase of melee upgrades). Probably needs FAQ'd though, unless it's already be done with the Dark Angels.

Unless we adopted sequential order as a criteria, in which case he's upgraded to an Apothecary before he buys any equipment.

ChaplainAvorus96
08-09-2013, 22:14
I'm actually wondering if your not far from the truth there, at least in comparison to the other big chapters. It could be that when these extra characters were added, it was due to Ultramarines (and other codex chapters) being boxed in by their own structure and that this was a way of adding special 'units' without actually changing thier codex structure, in the way that Angels have Deathwing/Ravenwing, Blood Angels have Death Company, Librarian Dreadnoughts, etc. It's also worth remembering that when Telion and Chronus were added, all the codex chapters could field them, as up till then, Ultramarines had a fairly modest 4 special characters, in line with most other armies. It's only now, as the new wave of chapter tactics come into play, that shareable characters could lead to the usual abuse that many 'too good' combos fall foul to.

I see your point, I never thought of it that way! The Ultramarines/Codex Chapters unique units are their Special chars. Hmm a neat thought!

Surgency
08-09-2013, 22:17
Unless we adopted sequential order as a criteria, in which case he's upgraded to an Apothecary before he buys any equipment.

IIRC sequential order is not a criteria, and all that matters is that the end result is a legal model

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2

Inquisitor Shego
08-09-2013, 22:17
My understanding was no, because a veteran can take any option from the appropriate wargear lists. Once a veteran becomes an apothacary he is no longer a veteran, thus he cannot get access to those items. The order you buy them in is moot, because once he becomes the apothacary, he should not be holding them.

Ssilmath
08-09-2013, 22:18
Unless we adopted sequential order as a criteria, in which case he's upgraded to an Apothecary before he buys any equipment.

I don't think I've ever heard of being required to take upgrades and gear in the order listed in the codex. Like, who would forbid me from buying Mastery Levels on my Sorcerer if I listed Terminator armor first on the army sheet?

Inquisitor Shego
08-09-2013, 22:21
I don't think I've ever heard of being required to take upgrades and gear in the order listed in the codex. Like, who would forbid me from buying Mastery Levels on my Sorcerer if I listed Terminator armor first on the army sheet?

Nothing, because the model's name is still sorcerer. A veteran's name is changed to apothecary

Archon of Death
08-09-2013, 22:23
I'll gave to check when I have the chance, however, if he has a seperate stat line as an apothecary then I would say "No" but if he uses the Veteran stat line, "Yes".

Inquisitor Shego
08-09-2013, 22:25
I'll gave to check when I have the chance, however, if he has a seperate stat line as an apothecary then I would say "No" but if he uses the Veteran stat line, "Yes".

Separate stat line, different names, identical stats, bar the Apothecary has Character, thus gets LOS and Challenges.

Ssilmath
08-09-2013, 22:28
Like I say, it needs an FAQ because it could go either way. But if the name were as important as you say, then (Going back to the Ork example) you could never have a Shoota boy squad with a Power Klaw Nob. He no longer has a Choppa and Slugga, and the entry clearly states that the entire mob exchanges weapons. But since the entire mob does not have a Choppa and Slugga, they can't upgrade. Not saying I'm right, but it's open for interpretation.

Archon of Death
08-09-2013, 22:35
Oh I'm merely going off this codex's wording, which has seemed to be extremely literal

The Emperor
08-09-2013, 22:38
I'm actually wondering if your not far from the truth there, at least in comparison to the other big chapters. It could be that when these extra characters were added, it was due to Ultramarines (and other codex chapters) being boxed in by their own structure and that this was a way of adding special 'units' without actually changing thier codex structure, in the way that Angels have Deathwing/Ravenwing, Blood Angels have Death Company, Librarian Dreadnoughts, etc. It's also worth remembering that when Telion and Chronus were added, all the codex chapters could field them, as up till then, Ultramarines had a fairly modest 4 special characters, in line with most other armies. It's only now, as the new wave of chapter tactics come into play, that shareable characters could lead to the usual abuse that many 'too good' combos fall foul to.

Maybe that's true with Telion and Chronus, but most of those special characters hail from the days when Ultramarines had their own Codex. Back in 2nd Edition there was no Codex: Space Marines, just Codex: Ultramarines. And in that book Ultramarines effectively had 6 Special Characters: Marneus Calgar, Cassius, Tigurius, Invictus (1st Company Captain), Ancient Helveticus (Chapter Standard Bearer), and the Legion of the Damned, which was in line with the number of Special Characters the Blood Angels, Dark Angels, and Space Wolves had in their own books.

The Ultramarines then lost Invictus, Helveticus, and Cassius in the transition to 3rd Edition in order to make room for Special Characters from other Chapters in the updated Codex: Space Marines. Thankfully Cassius came back with 4th Edition but Invictus and Helveticus are gone for good, albeit Telion and Chronus have replaced them. As for Sicarius, I believe he was created for the Battle for Medusa campaign and was promoted to a Special Character after GW made an updated version of the Rogue Trader Ultramarines Captain miniature.

Inquisitor Shego
08-09-2013, 22:39
Like I say, it needs an FAQ because it could go either way. But if the name were as important as you say, then (Going back to the Ork example) you could never have a Shoota boy squad with a Power Klaw Nob. He no longer has a Choppa and Slugga, and the entry clearly states that the entire mob exchanges weapons. But since the entire mob does not have a Choppa and Slugga, they can't upgrade. Not saying I'm right, but it's open for interpretation.

No way can that be right

*dons reading glasses and pulls out Ork dex*

Hmm, lets see, *murmer murmer murmer* entire mob... *murmer murmer murmer* replace choppa. Well stone me. You're right. RAW, a Nob cannot have a power klaw in a shoota unit because the "entire mob" swaps weapons. However, a different argument to mine, because that mentions a change to the whole unit. It doesn't specify Nob vs Boy, it has the entire mob affected. With the apothecary, to me personally, he's no longer a veteran. This change is indicated by unique wargear, and his upgrade to a unit character. FAQ would indeed be ideal.

Sgt John Keel
08-09-2013, 22:46
No way can that be right

*dons reading glasses and pulls out Ork dex*

Hmm, lets see, *murmer murmer murmer* entire mob... *murmer murmer murmer* replace choppa. Well stone me. You're right. RAW, a Nob cannot have a power klaw in a shoota unit because the "entire mob" swaps weapons. However, a different argument to mine, because that mentions a change to the whole unit. It doesn't specify Nob vs Boy, it has the entire mob affected. With the apothecary, to me personally, he's no longer a veteran. This change is indicated by unique wargear, and his upgrade to a unit character. FAQ would indeed be ideal.

There is an FAQ item that allows the Nob to select a power claw or a big choppa in a shoota boyz squad.

There is another precedent for picking items sequentially, the Furioso Librarian's inability to take extra armour.

Archon of Death
08-09-2013, 23:40
"They are effectively just another trooper in their unit, with enhanced characteristics and perhaps a wider selection of weapons and wargear choices"- 63 of the Rule Book

Little help in the rulebook although it may suggest they can.

The Tactical Squad, however:

"May upgrade the Space Marine Sergeant to a Veteran Sergeant"-167
"The Space Marine Sergeant or Veteran Sergeant may replace his boltgun and/or bolt pistol
with a chainsword"-167

This treats them as things needing, after the upgrade, to be defined as two separate entities, even though it was an upgrade, just like the Veteran to Apothecary.
Also, what's promising a semi-answer is that:

"...one Space Marine may take one item from the Special Weapons list, and one other Space Marine may take one item from the Heavy Weapons list."- 167

And the difference between a Sergeant and a Space Marine is that the Sergeant is a Character (like the difference between an Apothecary and Veteran).

Also under Vanguard Veteran Squad we see:

"Any model may take any of the following:"-170

The important word being ANY, which is inclusive of the Characters.

In fact, this wording continues through the Codex, so I am going to have to give a "No" to whether or not an Apothecary can take a Storm Shield. If he could then the wording would be "Any" or would specify him along with the Veterans.

Until there is an FAQ I'd check with your opponent if you are going to give him one, and, to be honest, I doubt GW will actually even bother FAQing this.

Son of Morkai
09-09-2013, 00:17
What I'm getting from this is that once a Space Marine learns to administer morphine and challenge enemy leaders to bitter duels to the death, he is expected to accomplish the latter with only the former? Admittedly, my Deathwatch Apothecary did once pull "Called Shot: Heart" with his Reductor to rip out an Ork Nob's important bits, but he was kind of a special snowflake and I don't expect others to follow his example.

Do wish they had included a Master of the Apothecarion if they were not going to allow normal Apothecaries to gear up, but it would have been nice if they also included generic Chief Librarians and Masters of Sanctity too.

Inquisitor Shego
09-09-2013, 00:20
What I'm getting from this is that once a Space Marine learns to administer morphine and challenge enemy leaders to bitter duels to the death, he is expected to accomplish the latter with only the former? Admittedly, my Deathwatch Apothecary did once pull "Called Shot: Heart" with his Reductor to rip out an Ork Nob's important bits, but he was kind of a special snowflake and I don't expect others to follow his example.

Do wish they had included a Master of the Apothecarion if they were not going to allow normal Apothecaries to gear up, but it would have been nice if they also included generic Chief Librarians and Masters of Sanctity too.

I would say your apothecary gaining character is more for the benefit of Look Out Sir than brawling like a boss, brah. It is a handy upgrade to protecting your FNP marine with the lives of others.

Latro_
09-09-2013, 01:15
That ork nob debate was huge on warseer heh, so much so i emailed phil kelly for an answer and he replied saying yes they can 'the nob is happier that way'. Is part of the faq now ofc.

I'm liking scouts in the new book for some reason i really wanna do a scout army. They have some neat tricks like the storm's cerb launcher is cool, scout bikers seem pretty cool with cluster mines and 3x grenader launchers.

Xerkics
09-09-2013, 01:32
A little sad that SM didnt get a reclusiarch equivalent , i was expect they would as Ultramarines already get super chaplain but not other vanilla chapters.

Camman1984
09-09-2013, 01:47
I was thinking that, seems really unfair that the ultramarines get both a super librarian and super chaplain where not other chapter gets access to either. Really should have given everyone the same options. How annoyed would you be if you opened your new eldar codex and looked down and saw that you only had access to sup par units because you painted them a specific colour.

Tigurius is so good compared to other librarians and is the marines only access to divination. Cassius is brilliant compared to regular chaplains. i wonder how many players will suddenly have custom chapter simply for access to them. All hail the ultrafists, ultrascars, ultraravens, ultrahands, ultramanders and ultratemplars

MajorWesJanson
09-09-2013, 01:48
That sounds about right based on the language in the codex. For instance: MOTF is under the heading of Techmarine in the units section, but then under Techmarine in the rules it says that you may take one for each HQ selection, not including Techmarines and yadda yadda, if you don't take it one hundred percent by the text then you cannot have one if you take a MotF, which is absolute drivel.

Master of the Forge is under techmarine in the bestiary, but not in the army list section, where he is a separate HQ choice from a techmarine and takes up a slot. His unit entry is Master of The Forge, not Techmarine.

The line about no techmarines unlocked with techmarines, servitors, command squads, or honor guard is so you can't get extra techmarines or chain them for infinite techmarines. You are limited to one extra techmarine per filled HQ slot basically. And MotF does unlock one.


I was thinking that, seems really unfair that the ultramarines get both a super librarian and super chaplain where not other chapter gets access to either. Really should have given everyone the same options. How annoyed would you be if you opened your new eldar codex and looked down and saw that you only had access to sup par units because you painted them a specific colour.

If characters are linked to chapters, then they can get away with adding a few more without loading up too many characters that all stack.
Say in supplements or next book around they add some more-
Iron Hands could get Iron Father Stronos (a chapter master equivalent who gives tac sergenats and vet sergeants access to terminator armor)
Salamanders could get Chaplain Xavier back.
White Scars could get a named Stormseer as an alternate Librarian character.
Raven Guard could get an alternate Scout upgrade character
Imperial/Crimson Fists could get access to the Emperor's Champion.

Basically 4 new special characters, all the other first founders get some more character love, and we get viable alternates for Telion, Tigurius, and Cassius/Grimaldus.

Carnage
09-09-2013, 02:04
I picked up the codex today and had a quick flick through,

My 1500pt list is now 1575pts for less.

Vindicators are now more expensive, thunder hammer terminators are now more which I don't mind I always thought they should go up in points.

Lysander went up and got worse? No bolter drill, no stubborn & no bolster defences. The best thing about him was eternal warrior but that can be purchased as a special storm shield for 50 odd points.

Tactical marines appear cheaper at first glance. But they work out exactly the same as before when you add in some special weapons and war gear.

Just seems like the codex is a quick update without adding anything really new. Chapter tactical are great and adds some individuality to each chapter. I don't like how you can't take a special character and use them under another chapter. Ultramarines have 7 and the others have 1. Would have been nice to add in a couple new special characters. I wonder if the new rumoured supplements will have any.

Time to completely re invent my list! I would be more annoyed if I wasn't playing a heresy army. At least forge world really know how to nail it!

My 1500 point list is 1595 for less....wooo.

Not happy with the changes to tactical squads, as the still suck. No Dakka banner or equivalent.

The Chapter Tactics are largely poor, and I will probably be playing my Ultramarines army with White Scar tactics for free hit and run and better jink on my attack bikes.

The relics seem largely like traps. Since designing a 200+ point melee monster is just plain dumb, and none of them really do anything that isn't just straight up offense or defense.

Nerfs to combi-weapon sternguard was rather unwarranted.

TH/SS terminators needed to go up 5 points....in fifth edition. Nowadays they aren't even worth 40 points, let alone 45. Tactical terminators are as poor as ever, and will continue to suck until they can either swing their power fists at initiative >1 or their stormbolters have 2-3 times as many shots as they do now.

Honor guard seem good....sadly you need a chapter master to unlock them, so I won't be using them anytime soon.

How they arrived at increasing the cost of Vindicators, I have no idea.

And yeah, I'm going to be leaning on FW units as hard as ever, since the Stalker/Hunter is a POS compared to Hyperios batteries, Contemptor and normal Mortis Dreads.

Archon of Death
09-09-2013, 02:35
Master of the Forge is under techmarine in the bestiary, but not in the army list section, where he is a separate HQ choice from a techmarine and takes up a slot. His unit entry is Master of The Forge, not Techmarine.

The line about no techmarines unlocked with techmarines, servitors, command squads, or honor guard is so you can't get extra techmarines or chain them for infinite techmarines. You are limited to one extra techmarine per filled HQ slot basically. And MotF does unlock one.

Oh I realized, it was the only real thing I had on hand while at work about their wording being pretty specific for army list entries. I was finally able to post a listing of examples about how the wording was done when I got home. Which I think solves that whole Apothecary issue until it all gets FAQ'd.


My 1500 point list is 1595 for less....wooo.
Sounds about right, if you were running a lot of things that got bumped in cost it's going to hurt you all around.


Not happy with the changes to tactical squads, as the still suck. No Dakka banner or equivalent.
They're basic Troops, what do you expect... At least they are fairly cheap if you just want one/two troop slot/s filled, which I'm fine with. Heck at least they are more survivable than a Vet squad from IG. The only real issue here is I can't shove them in an "OMG THIS IS AMAZING" flier and never have to see their smug faces dying on me.


The Chapter Tactics are largely poor, and I will probably be playing my Ultramarines army with White Scar tactics for free hit and run and better jink on my attack bikes.
They aren't really meant to be "OMG THIS IS GREAT WE'RE CHAOS NOOOOOOW" and are simply a way to allow you some free bonuses to your army, which I think is really cool... because they're a FREE perk.


The relics seem largely like traps. Since designing a 200+ point melee monster is just plain dumb, and none of them really do anything that isn't just straight up offense or defense.
That's because they are traps, anything that cool is a great way to just charge forward and die. The Armor Indomitus doesn't live up to its name. The shield only really adds one good perk (Deny The Witch is cool defensively and all, but... meh). Primarch's Wrath is just a super rerolling gun that should have had better AP to be really worth it. The Burning Blade might be worth the suicide if, you know, you didn't have to suicide to suicide with it, and it's one other special ability just makes it so that if you DON'T win the combat first turn (bad idea, you want to win it first), you might survive turn two (until three squads crush you as you become surrounded and lose that million point sweetheart you though was so cool). The Teeth are meh all around because they are just super heavy special rule weapons that can be good. Finally the standard... It's a Standard, worth half the cost of a decent tank... No, just... no.


How they arrived at increasing the cost of Vindicators, I have no idea.
They're still cheaper than a Demolisher. Either way I think it's still a meh idea to take them, never loved the range on them, but I really have to agree Vindicators aren't worth it since a S7 can take it out from the front, and considering many of those are pew pew pew guns and not boom cannons, it seems all the less survivable.


And yeah, I'm going to be leaning on FW units as hard as ever, since the Stalker/Hunter is a POS compared to Hyperios batteries, Contemptor and normal Mortis Dreads.
Well, you'll get that. Sometimes FW is better, sometimes it's worse. It all depends.

Inquisitor Shego
09-09-2013, 03:25
The Burning Blade might be worth the suicide if, you know, you didn't have to suicide to suicide with it.

I am sig'ing this. It made me LOL hard

Carnage
09-09-2013, 04:05
They're basic Troops, what do you expect... At least they are fairly cheap if you just want one/two troop slot/s filled, which I'm fine with. Heck at least they are more survivable than a Vet squad from IG. The only real issue here is I can't shove them in an "OMG THIS IS AMAZING" flier and never have to see their smug faces dying on me.



We can agree on a lot....except this. I expect my compulsory units to not be a waste of points frankly. I'm already looking at 5 man squads with a missile launcher or plasma cannon as my troop choices....if not just skipping tacticals altogether for a third edition in a row for bikers and maybe some sniper scouts in reinforced cover.

Archon of Death
09-09-2013, 04:21
Outside of the Armored Company rules from Chapter Approved and Forgeworld as well as the new (to me) 'Nids finally having Warriors as troops, I've yet to see an army I really like the troops for. Seriously I build an army and minimize the troops because I hate almost all the options either from a fluff stance or gameplay-wise or the lack of cool factor. They're almost always, to me, a place I have to waste points to get something enjoyable.

But, then again, that's been my opinion for everything outside Third Edition Dark Eldar, Chaos, and Harlequins (and now 'Nids have Warriors, woot... maybe, probably not even worth the excitement, I don't even know anymore).

Inquisitor Shego
09-09-2013, 04:28
We can agree on a lot....except this. I expect my compulsory units to not be a waste of points frankly. I'm already looking at 5 man squads with a missile launcher or plasma cannon as my troop choices....if not just skipping tacticals altogether for a third edition in a row for bikers and maybe some sniper scouts in reinforced cover.

If playing Chaos Space Marines has taught me two things (not including our current dex) it is there is extreme danger in tons of tactical troops. Bolters in sufficient numbers can mince when backed with T4, and 40 tactical marines is a scary thing to shift. People ride tactical space marines hard, but they're just as durable as Sternguard or other more risky units. Admittedly I've never played loyalist marines before (well.... 3 games with a GW store army) but I'll say with my Alpha Legion, slapping down 50-60 vanilla CSM troops was often enough to throw someone's game plan. Now that they're 14 points a pop, I'm loving them.

My current list is (forgive me for dumping this here)

RAVEN GUARD – 2000 POINTS

HQ
Captain Karasu + Jump Pack + Articifer Armour + Relic Blade + Melta Bombs + Auspex

TROOP
Squad De La Vega – 5 Scouts + Bolt Pistol + CC Weapon + Melta Bombs
Squad Corbeau - 10 Scouts + Camo Cloaks + Sniper Rifles
Squad Wuya - 10 Scouts + Bolt Pistol + CC Weapon + Combi Flamer + Melta Bombs
Squad Corvo - 10 Tactical Marines + Melta Gun + Melta Bombs
Squad Serre - 10 Tactical Marines + Melta Gun + Melta Bombs
Squad Ardantus - 10 Tactical Marines + Melta Gun + Melta Bombs

DEDICATED TRANSPORT
Squad Corbeau – Land Speeder Storm + Heavy Flamer
Squad Wuya – Land Speeder Storm + Heavy Flamer
Squad Corvo – Rhino + Extra Armour + Dozer Blade
Squad Serre – Rhino + Extra Armour + Dozer Blade
Squad Ardantus – Rhino + Extra Armour + Dozer Blade

FAST ATTACK
Squad Neverine - 10 Assault Marines + 2 Flamers + Melta Bombs
Stormtalon Gunship + Lascannons
Stormtalon Gunship + Lascannons

HEAVY SUPPORT
Predator + Lascannon + Lascannon Sponsons
Predator + Lascannon + Lascannon Sponsons
Whirlwind

Much like a large African American woman from Jerry Springer, I aim to be large and in charge, getting "Up in yo grill" with masses. Now of course this army utterly sucks because I'm taking scouts for the sake of it, and I'm not spamming razorbacks, and I'm taking predators solely because the models are sexy, but I suspect my 30 Tacticals are going to be doing a lot of harm with scout movement in the rhinos bringing rapid fire ever closer.

With Ultramarines re-rollings 1's with squads, and all misses with tacticals for one shooting phase, and Imperial Fists + successors re rolling 1's with bolters throughout the entire game, that Str 4, 24 inch gun is looking scaaaaary.

Not that they're the next Heldrake or anything, but me, I'm a tactical fan through and through

Oh, tell a lie. I played Ultramarines and Blood Angels 2nd edition when I was 10


Outside of the Armored Company rules from Chapter Approved and Forgeworld as well as the new (to me) 'Nids finally having Warriors as troops, I've yet to see an army I really like the troops for. Seriously I build an army and minimize the troops because I hate almost all the options either from a fluff stance or gameplay-wise or the lack of cool factor. They're almost always, to me, a place I have to waste points to get something enjoyable.

But, then again, that's been my opinion for everything outside Third Edition Dark Eldar, Chaos, and Harlequins (and now 'Nids have Warriors, woot... maybe, probably not even worth the excitement, I don't even know anymore).

Dark Eldar troops is insanely good. Either haywire wyches or blaster/splinter orgy with raiders and splinter racks, or the 2 x Splinter Cannon Venom with 5 guys and a Blaster. Necron Warriors make excellent troops still, Chaos Space Marines being able to plonk squads of 20 down looks amazing on the battle field, and Orks... jesus christ, they die in droves but there's always some left over, and I swear those things just poop dice when you get to the assault phase, because you are BATHED in dice when an Ork mob hits you. Oh and new contenders Daemonettes are just sick and horrible. When they've got a herald rubbing her gam-gams and giving you rerollable misses whilst pick-and-choosing your assaults, holy moses!

Nids need some love I feel, and Eldar always felt like an army designed to make you hate the troops and pick the elites (cept for jetbikes, they're an awesome troop). I win about 80% of my games, and I find the key to it is a solid troop block to soak up hits and do the mundane stuff well whilst my specialist units die horribly for showing off.

Losing Command
09-09-2013, 05:45
I used an army with 60 tactical marines and Pedro Kantor with the previous codex a few times. Let me tell you that nobody wanted that to get close to their army :D Never underestimate tactical marines.

Archon of Death
09-09-2013, 05:58
Dark Eldar troops is insanely good. Either haywire wyches or blaster/splinter orgy with raiders and splinter racks, or the 2 x Splinter Cannon Venom with 5 guys and a Blaster. Necron Warriors make excellent troops still, Chaos Space Marines being able to plonk squads of 20 down looks amazing on the battle field, and Orks... jesus christ, they die in droves but there's always some left over, and I swear those things just poop dice when you get to the assault phase, because you are BATHED in dice when an Ork mob hits you. Oh and new contenders Daemonettes are just sick and horrible. When they've got a herald rubbing her gam-gams and giving you rerollable misses whilst pick-and-choosing your assaults, holy moses!

Nids need some love I feel, and Eldar always felt like an army designed to make you hate the troops and pick the elites (cept for jetbikes, they're an awesome troop). I win about 80% of my games, and I find the key to it is a solid troop block to soak up hits and do the mundane stuff well whilst my specialist units die horribly for showing off.

Hey, back in third all we had were warriors, and you know what we did with those warriors? Bought Raiders for them, gave them a Dark Lance, left the warriors somewhere they could decimate an army, then had the raider go around and shoot too... And I LOVED IT. Seriously, 2 dark lances, one on a moving platform. For like 150 points... Ran like 6 of those and 3 Ravagers and I was good to destroy anything. Total of 22 Dark Lance shots every turn, armor didn't survive turn 1, turn 2 saw my Archon opening up a can of awesome on someone, and come turn 4, there was no one left on the field for me to mop up.

Also, Necron Warriors don't count... *mutters about killing off entire AC armies on the first turn*

brionl
09-09-2013, 06:08
What are peoples thoughts on the Hunter/Stalker? What looks like the better of the two builds?

Cheers

Looking at the pics of the sprues on GW's site it looks like you have enough parts to build both weapons. Don't glue on the lid, and swap them around on a per mission basis.

lethlis
09-09-2013, 06:12
What are you talking about? third was all about the 100 pt double lance warrior squad.

Archon of Death
09-09-2013, 06:19
What are you talking about? third was all about the 100 pt double lance warrior squad.

Tried it. I liked using Raiders more. The double lance squads was amazing, however. And could net the same number of shots, either way you were looking at a lot of death

Losing Command
09-09-2013, 07:46
Am I right if I assume that Grav-cannons shooting a Wave serpent completely ignore the Serpent shield and just immobilize the pesky things ?

If so, I might have to get some centurions after all. Damn ...

totgeboren
09-09-2013, 08:18
Nothing prevents him from being given equipment as a veteran, and then upgrading to an Apothecary. It only adds a Narthecium to his wargear. A similar logic was applied to Nobz, who are upgraded and given their Power Klaw before the squad upgrades to Shootas (Which would replace the Choppa and Slugga and prevent the purchase of melee upgrades). Probably needs FAQ'd though, unless it's already be done with the Dark Angels.

I know you guys have already discussed this, but I must point out that a better comparison is with the unit "Nobs", and specifically the Painboy upgrade. The structure of the upgrades, and the separate profile, is identical, and the only upgrades available to a Painboy is a grot orderly and the upgrades that must be applied to "all models in the unit".

To me it is pretty clear cut that the only upgrade available to an Apothecary is a bike, provided the rest of the squad also takes bikes. The same actually goes to the Company Champion, though he is a cheap upgrade for what you get if I ever saw one.

However, since we are talking of Codex: And-They-Shall-Have-Their-Cake, the FAQ could go either way I guess. Just like the counter charge+furious assault when applied to SW or to Nids. 'Yes' if marines, no if anyone else.

Freman Bloodglaive
09-09-2013, 08:40
That said, they did correct it so Space Wolves couldn't combine counter attack and furious charge.

Mortimer
09-09-2013, 08:44
Am I right if I assume that Grav-cannons shooting a Wave serpent completely ignore the Serpent shield and just immobilize the pesky things ?

If so, I might have to get some centurions after all. Damn ...

Looks like it..

does say if you score a 6 the bugger is immobilized.

Ironbone
09-09-2013, 09:24
Not happy with the changes to tactical squads, as the still suck. No Dakka banner or equivalent.
Well, its codex Space marines, not codex dark angles with more toys :p. And tac marines are now actualy decent. Hell even basic CSM fo only 13 pts are nice, so how with so lots of bonuses ( ADSKNF, chatper tactics, no forced challenges ) the can be bad ?


The Chapter Tactics are largely poor, and I will probably be playing my Ultramarines army with White Scar tactics for free hit and run and better jink on my attack bikes.

Dont think so. Ct are free, and give some large benefits armywide.


TH/SS terminators needed to go up 5 points....in fifth edition. Nowadays they aren't even worth 40 points, let alone 45. Tactical terminators are as poor as ever, and will continue to suck until they can either swing their power fists at initiative >1 or their stormbolters have 2-3 times as many shots as they do now.

Sir, AYFKM :eyebrows: ?



New tanks - the Hunter is the clear winner here - sure the Stalker has 4 TL auto-cannon shots but the Hunter has armor bane which is HUGE as well as the funky missile lock rule that lets the missile trail after the target! If I was to take one of the variants it'd be the Hunter for sure, but it's not an interceptor so BOTH tanks will have limited roles - play an enemy with no fliers and your points go down the drain - so again this is why I feel that they won't be seen in each and every game as most players prefer units that can be used in all situations (so Ageies lines and the new AA bunker will still be better choices when it comes to AA fire).

Well, my imperesion is exactly oposite, with stalker being way better in every aspekt. One shot, even super-strong with missile lock, is still one shot. Flyers can evade, or go outside table to loose missile on their tail ( not to even mention that single AP2 penetration have still only 1/3 chance of destroing target ), skrimmers have jinx ( or worse, serpent shield ). With 8 shots, even helldrake can be kill in single salvo, and you can easily wreck any skrimmrer in game. And even againts ground targets, with so many shots you are bound to do something :D.

Mortimer
09-09-2013, 09:50
And even againts ground targets, with so many shots you are bound to do something :D.

It hasnt hurt Lootas or even normal ork shooting into the **** of a BaleDrake

daveNYC
09-09-2013, 09:55
The shield only works its mojo on penetrating hits. Grav cannons skip all that stuff and simply remove a hull point and apply immobilize.

I don't think either of the AA tanks is that great. No interceptor means that the enemy flyer will get a shot off at it (assuming your Hunter/Stalker wasn't nuked first turn), and it means that the tank will sit around doing relatively nothing if there's no flyers to be shot at. It's really the last bit that's annoying.
They probably should have given the tanks' main weapons two profiles, similar to how the Soul Grinder's Reaper works. That way you can shoot at air and ground targets even without the interceptor rule.

The Marshel
09-09-2013, 10:27
With 8 shots, even helldrake can be kill in single salvo, and you can easily wreck any skrimmrer in game. And even againts ground targets, with so many shots you are bound to do something :D.

you can't fire dual target mode at a single target, and if only targeting a single target you get 4 shots. So you can't just shoot 8 shots at a single helldrake at bs 2

Ironbone
09-09-2013, 10:28
IMHO AA vechicles shoud stay AA. But nothing disalows to shoot at something in turn 1. Skrimmers especialy are nice targets, as wven with skyfire, we still hit them on full BS.

ChaosLordKaranath
09-09-2013, 10:41
While I have not read or played a game against the new codex it seems like the codex may be like the Horus Heresy list in that ironically its fairly balanced versus chaos space marines, while some of the chapter tactics may seem powerful (name the iron hands one) it wont affect me too much as when it comes to destroying a vehicle I try to make sure I focus fire on that vehicle I want dead til its dead. The 6+ feel no paint dosent bother me either. I will admit the only thing in this codex which maybe scares me is the hunter/ stalker however that is only because I may eventually inclkude a storm eagle/ dread claw dfrop pod or 2 into my army just to give me some options to get up and close with the enemy quickly. BTW seriously do not under estimate the power of bolt guns I kileld a vindicator in a pre heresy game by fury of the legion plus rapid firing it to death seriously 10 marines with 4 shots each rock :)

Ironbone
09-09-2013, 11:29
seriously 10 marines with 4 shots each rock :)
Dakka banner DA compleatly agree with you :p.

Camman1984
09-09-2013, 12:48
I'm glad we didnt get the dakker banner. Magical banners dont belong in a non chaos 40k army. I get things like company standards inspiring soldiers to fight harder or embolden them but magically changing the gun's firing mechanism doesnt work for me.

ChaosLordKaranath
09-09-2013, 13:07
Dakka banner DA compleatly agree with you :p.

I was shocked as chaos we did not get something similar tbh :P seriously imagine 20 chaos marines with 40 bolt gun shots haha

Ironbone
09-09-2013, 13:16
I was shocked as chaos we did not get something similar tbh :P
No ? 20 marine units, and 13 pts per model give wast opportunites to deploy dakka squads.

ChaosLordKaranath
09-09-2013, 13:21
No ? 20 marine units, and 13 pts per model give wast opportunites to deploy dakka squads.

Yeah but think about it with the bolter banner our chaos units could pretty much just say remove that unit please its dead before they even realise it

Poseidal
09-09-2013, 14:05
Do Grav Cannons ignore vehicle cover/invulnerable saves?

Tamwulf
09-09-2013, 14:32
Do Grav Cannons ignore vehicle cover/invulnerable saves?

Grav Weapons roll to hit like all other weapons, but they do NOT roll for armor penetration. When they hit a vehicle, you roll a d6. On a 6, the vehicle suffers an immobilized result and loses one Hull Point. This is NOT an armor penetration roll. Think of it as a "Gravgun Roll".

Cover saves for vehicles are only for Glancing/penetrating hits. As the Grav Gun never makes an armor penetration roll, you would never get a cover save against it. Fear not, though. The Grav Gun needs to roll a six to affect your vehicle, and there just isn't enough of them within the army. They are also ridiculously close ranged.

I'm not sure how an Invulnerable Save works here. Invulnerable Saves always get taken vs. a wound, but looking through the vehicle section of the rule book, it doesn't address the issue. I'd almost lean towards no, you wouldn't get an invulnerable save as the Grav Gun never rolls to wound, glance, or penetrate a vehicle. It makes a "Gravgun Roll".

Miredorf
10-09-2013, 02:12
Allow me a question guys. I havent played 6th at all, but i keep hearing the thunderfire cannon is super good. The question is, what is that makes it so good?

Thanks in advance.

Archon of Death
10-09-2013, 02:33
Blast Templates, Heavy 4, Barrage. That means every time it fires you place 1 template (don't even need to see the target), scatters 2d6/2d6-BS (BS 4) depending if you can see them or not, then that first template generates 3 additional templates off it (or on it) in 3 semirandom directions. This makes it superior to an ordnance blast (especially if you get that average of 1 hit symbol, which could lead to hitting single models more than once) as the area around it is larger that is being hit. In addition it isn't a vehicle and it is tough enough to take some hits. It's almost as good as an Executioner Cannon from IG, and in some respects it's better considering you don't need to see the target, all for 100 points of pure crushing power.

Oh, and Ordnance can snipe characters, kind of (LOS can happen, otherwise it will always do it), plus if you hit a light armored vehicle it can actually destroy it (potentially), plus ignores cover and difficult terrain with it's alternative firing methods. It's seriously sexiness and is possibly much more survivable than a tank

Miredorf
10-09-2013, 03:18
Blast Templates, Heavy 4, Barrage. That means every time it fires you place 1 template (don't even need to see the target), scatters 2d6/2d6-BS (BS 4) depending if you can see them or not, then that first template generates 3 additional templates off it (or on it) in 3 semirandom directions. This makes it superior to an ordnance blast (especially if you get that average of 1 hit symbol, which could lead to hitting single models more than once) as the area around it is larger that is being hit. In addition it isn't a vehicle and it is tough enough to take some hits. It's almost as good as an Executioner Cannon from IG, and in some respects it's better considering you don't need to see the target, all for 100 points of pure crushing power.

Oh, and Ordnance can snipe characters, kind of (LOS can happen, otherwise it will always do it), plus if you hit a light armored vehicle it can actually destroy it (potentially), plus ignores cover and difficult terrain with it's alternative firing methods. It's seriously sexiness and is possibly much more survivable than a tank

Thanks for answer. =)

Lantern
10-09-2013, 07:59
I will say this for the new book. I'm loving the fact that there seems to be no favourite chapter. The tactics board has lots of varieties being used, with no clear 'favourites', in my opinion, making people structure their lists to their preferred play style as opposed to 'strongest list', which can only be good for the hobby.

Jind_Singh
10-09-2013, 09:04
I will say this for the new book. I'm loving the fact that there seems to be no favourite chapter. The tactics board has lots of varieties being used, with no clear 'favourites', in my opinion, making people structure their lists to their preferred play style as opposed to 'strongest list', which can only be good for the hobby.

Darn there are times when I miss having a 'like' button on Warseer!!

That's a main reason for why I'm really into this book right now - every man and his dog have opinions on different Chapter Tactics, army load outs, which is refreshingly nice to see in 40k - up until now this was reserved for the Warhammer side of the hobby - but great to see that the book has opened a lot of gaming doors.


ON IMPERIAL FISTS

Played my 1st game with them - my friend took a standard 1,500 point Necron list while I took 20 Storm Bolter Terminators (with 4 assualt cannons), 10 close combat Terminators (8 claws, 2 hammers), and 3 Devastator Centurians (Grav guns, missile launchers), as I really wanted to use nothing but 30 Terminators and the new Centurions!

Bolter Drill...

Not as amazing as I thought it would be - it's useful, don't get me wrong, but not AS powerful as I first thought it would be. I think when I play normal lists (i.e. legal lists) and bring out the heavy bolters it'll be a new story as re-rolling to hit with a strength 4 bolter isn't going to be as good as re-rolling misses with the Heavy Bolter!

TOO BAD that Dreadnoughts don't get Chapter Tactics - but I guess that they are more machine that man now anyway...

Tank Hunters - this WAS fun allowing me to re-roll to pen, actually came in useful during the game.

the_picto
10-09-2013, 10:32
ON IMPERIAL FISTS

Played my 1st game with them - my friend took a standard 1,500 point Necron list while I took 20 Storm Bolter Terminators (with 4 assualt cannons), 10 close combat Terminators (8 claws, 2 hammers), and 3 Devastator Centurians (Grav guns, missile launchers), as I really wanted to use nothing but 30 Terminators and the new Centurions!



Your opponent was ok with you not having two troops and a hq choice?

duffybear1988
10-09-2013, 13:45
My first impression (after I had peeled the pages apart) was bland. I want to like it but it's just a bit meh...

Mortimer
10-09-2013, 14:26
My first impression (after I had peeled the pages apart) was bland. I want to like it but it's just a bit meh...

It just reads like 5th ed with more fluff and extra units.

So will this be called 5.5?

Like 5th ed chaos is 4.5?

IcedCrow
10-09-2013, 14:30
I like the codex. I like the build options. I like that it may take a while before internet wizdom pulls the must-build-or-go-home list from it. I have no doubt that this will happen in a few months, but I think it'll take longer than say the chaos codex when everyone figured out that baledrakes were really good and you should spam 3 of them.

The sad/cynical thing is that as this is a solid codex IMO, that means codex: Blood Angels, Space Wolves, and Abortion Knights ... which have a long and storied history of being Codex: Space Marines +2 (while Dark Angels are usually Codex: Space Marines - 1), could very well continue the trend and be busted.

Azazel
10-09-2013, 14:50
Grav Weapons roll to hit like all other weapons, but they do NOT roll for armor penetration. When they hit a vehicle, you roll a d6. On a 6, the vehicle suffers an immobilized result and loses one Hull Point. This is NOT an armor penetration roll. Think of it as a "Gravgun Roll".

Cover saves for vehicles are only for Glancing/penetrating hits. As the Grav Gun never makes an armor penetration roll, you would never get a cover save against it. Fear not, though. The Grav Gun needs to roll a six to affect your vehicle, and there just isn't enough of them within the army. They are also ridiculously close ranged.

I'm not sure how an Invulnerable Save works here. Invulnerable Saves always get taken vs. a wound, but looking through the vehicle section of the rule book, it doesn't address the issue. I'd almost lean towards no, you wouldn't get an invulnerable save as the Grav Gun never rolls to wound, glance, or penetrate a vehicle. It makes a "Gravgun Roll".

Vehicles with Invulnerable saves get to take it against failing a Dangerous Terrain test, as per the Dark Eldar FAQ. I think they would get it against a Grav Weapon.

Poseidal
10-09-2013, 15:05
Vehicles with Invulnerable saves get to take it against failing a Dangerous Terrain test, as per the Dark Eldar FAQ. I think they would get it against a Grav Weapon.

That's interesting, as cover saves are relevant as it is a shooting attack (where cover saves are relevant), which obviously wouldn't apply for dangerous terrain meaning both cover and invulnerable might be valid against these.

lethlis
10-09-2013, 15:15
Going full on rules beard I would say no cover saves.

However in game play I would let my opponent take cover saves.

Fallen11
10-09-2013, 19:52
Blast Templates, Heavy 4, Barrage. That means every time it fires you place 1 template (don't even need to see the target), scatters 2d6/2d6-BS (BS 4) depending if you can see them or not, then that first template generates 3 additional templates off it (or on it) in 3 semirandom directions. This makes it superior to an ordnance blast (especially if you get that average of 1 hit symbol, which could lead to hitting single models more than once) as the area around it is larger that is being hit. In addition it isn't a vehicle and it is tough enough to take some hits. It's almost as good as an Executioner Cannon from IG, and in some respects it's better considering you don't need to see the target, all for 100 points of pure crushing power.

Oh, and Ordnance can snipe characters, kind of (LOS can happen, otherwise it will always do it), plus if you hit a light armored vehicle it can actually destroy it (potentially), plus ignores cover and difficult terrain with it's alternative firing methods. It's seriously sexiness and is possibly much more survivable than a tank

So thunderfire is Ordnance? Since I don't see ordnance under it's rules,or am I missing something?

Poseidal
10-09-2013, 20:16
Barrage, not Ordnance. I think that was a typo; Ordnance does nothing special to non vehicles.

Archon of Death
10-09-2013, 20:17
Derp, sorry, I meant Blast, not Ordnance.

Xerkics
10-09-2013, 22:43
It just reads like 5th ed with more fluff and extra units.

So will this be called 5.5?

Like 5th ed chaos is 4.5?

Thats what i thought , there was just nothing in the book that grabbed me like i was even more excited about eldar codex which i dont play. Now stuff like plastic vanguard and sternguard vets thats cool but book itself is very meh , even if its sound good mechnically. Its NOT exciting.

Ssilmath
10-09-2013, 22:57
I don't think it was intended to be exciting. I think it was intended to update Space Marines for 6th while adding AA elements, a new heavy unit and Chapter Tactics. I'm not sure what else you were expecting.

Inquisitor Shego
10-09-2013, 23:31
I was discussing with my room mate how (not whining) space marines by comparison, get a hell of a lot more than other armies. This includes Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, etc. So we were thinking, if Space Wolves and Blood Angels come out tomorrow, what would you give them to fill out the mandatory amount of releases GW does with every visitation. Aside from an AA tank and/or flyer, it's getting tougher to decide. This is why the centurions feel so groan-worthy to me, like they exist solely for the sake of GW releasing something. There's already terminators and dreadnoughts filling their role.

So for getting a slight re-tweek on points, some cool artifacts, chapter tactics, some nice tanks, I would honestly say well done GW and well done Cruddace. Seems like a great release.

Archon of Death
11-09-2013, 00:40
If I go SM I think I'll end up taking Centurions... They FEEL better than Terminators for an IH army, the double shot will probably be conferred by me giving them servo-style bitz, plus it kind of looks like souped up Artificer armor, which works well with me giving them treads and what have you. Plus the ID isn't a big issue. TBH, I like them more than Terminators, even at the points.

Jind_Singh
11-09-2013, 03:02
Your opponent was ok with you not having two troops and a hq choice?

Yup - a lot of players forget one crucial thing about Warhammer 40k and Warhammer...

It's OUR game! We play it the way we want, when we want - MOST of my games are 'legal' in the points, FOC, etc, but once in a while play a game that you want to! Play for fun is my motto

Afterall - whoever heard of the First Company getting ready to do battle but then some official looking twerp with augmented eyes runs up and says..

"Excuse me First Captain - but you can't go to battle without 2 squads of Tactical Marines or Scouts"

"But we're Terminators, chosen of the Emperor, finest of all mankind!"

"Yes but this pink slip says that you can't do battle without the pre-mentioned Tactical Marines or Scouts...Oh, you also have to leave a squad of Terminators behind"


Ah the joy of liberation!

;)

Archon of Death
11-09-2013, 03:23
If you're playing fluffy, I actually think taking an HQ is stupid. You don't always send one of your ten captains or your ONLY chapter master off to fight some little battle. To be honest 5 Terminators and an Iron Clad in a Stormraven is all you should need

Kloud13
11-09-2013, 05:37
If you're playing fluffy, I actually think taking an HQ is stupid. You don't always send one of your ten captains or your ONLY chapter master off to fight some little battle. To be honest 5 Terminators and an Iron Clad in a Stormraven is all you should need

Why not, seems Creed or Eldrad or whoever else is taking a personel interest in every little skirmish around the Galaxy.:rolleyes:

Archon of Death
11-09-2013, 05:48
Oh your scouts are fighting to prove they are worth their armor? Well, you have to take the Chaplain to make sure they do well....

Jind_Singh
11-09-2013, 05:49
So question...

Would it have broken Imperial Fist Stern Gaurd to be able to use Chapter Tactics Bolter drill for their specialist ammo??

Would it?

Sure they would be good but it seems strange that the fury of their Primarch only extends to big standard bolt shells...

Borgomos
11-09-2013, 06:04
Not necessarily broken, but Sternguard are already popular as they are, pushing the IF Chapter Tactics to include their specialist ammo would make IF somewhat of a no-brainer choice..

lethlis
11-09-2013, 06:44
Especially with vengeance rounds getting to re-roll their gets hot.

Also it adds another dimension to using your sternguard ammo. Do you fire the specialist rounds(most of the time) or do you take the re-rolls to get more hits.

Personally I am happy with the cost reduction for sternguard, as well as the cost reduction for other elements of the army(to balance out the combi weapon increase) They have really benefited a lot. With the decrease in need for special tank busting weapons, I save on combi-weapons and now squads that were well into the 300s are sub 300 all in. Frees up points elsewhere.

Laughingmonk
11-09-2013, 07:22
I'm still trying to digest grav weapons. The centurion mounted cannon seems definitely awesome, but other than that I am struggling to find appropriate applications. The only 2 that come to mind are ones mounted on bikes, and stern guard combi weapons. The bikes are self explanatory, and the stern guard don't have to risk overheat. Both units also have effective alternate attacks.

A pistol on a combat character may be a possibility, as concussive would lower his targets initiative.

RanaldLoec
11-09-2013, 07:29
Especially with vengeance rounds getting to re-roll their gets hot.

Also it adds another dimension to using your sternguard ammo. Do you fire the specialist rounds(most of the time) or do you take the re-rolls to get more hits.

Personally I am happy with the cost reduction for sternguard, as well as the cost reduction for other elements of the army(to balance out the combi weapon increase) They have really benefited a lot. With the decrease in need for special tank busting weapons, I save on combi-weapons and now squads that were well into the 300s are sub 300 all in. Frees up points elsewhere.

Note the bit at the bottom IF chapter tactics states " except blah blah" names all the specail ammunition as being non rerollable.

Sternguard are still a great unit.

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2

Endobai
11-09-2013, 07:32
Initial impressions?

I'm primary Eldar player and added a couple of SM armies just for the sake of fun, but still I find the codex very enjoyable.

It is an update, but several changes, the addition of grav weapons and most importantly the chapter traits make it really good book with many useful choices. There might be not a single unit which is useless since every of the chapter traits gives something to some unit.

I really like it and although more expensive than FW books (if you count the pages) it was worth the money.

metro_gnome
11-09-2013, 09:07
I expect the special ammo exception to Bolterdrill is to reign in Kantor not CT:IF...
I dunno about the happiness about sternguard cost reduction...
they are one of the only units that's still paying sergeant tax...
And the only unit to gain absolutely nothing from it...

I think the dex is pretty good overall... new Chapter tactics is a step in the right direction...
But I would say there is altogether too much attention made to making BT stand out...
Sorry to the BT players... but I don't see any reason why other chapters could not have Crusader squads...
especially if BTs have access to Tacs and scouts anyway... is it to stop troop dedicated LRC's?... who knows?
Abhor the witch?.. not necessary... the fluffy bunnies wouldn't take a Libby anyway...
and the power gamers will find a way anyway... like Salamander Speeders or (now) Iron Hand Bikes...
Emperor's Champion? Chapter Champion? Company Champion? they should all be degrees of the same thing...
Sure the EC could be an IC... but other Fist chapters should have this... and SM in general could have this...
Cenobytes?... sure there are plenty of fluff examples of other Chaplains and Librarians with such familiars...
And a lot of these things are so unappealing that even BT players won't take them... and never did...

I am a firm believer in a codex providing you with what you want... and not trying to restrict you from taking what you don't want :wtf:...
There's nothing broken about a Crusader Squad with CT: Salamanders... If the player doesn't think it fits they won't use it...
But if someone does think that their "Fire Scions" homebrew might crusade the galaxy for enemies of the empire and KILL IT WITH FIRE!
Then maybe this combination is right for them...

it is probably part of the weening process but right now these restrictions just look artificial in what is otherwise a very versatile book...

the_picto
11-09-2013, 10:07
Yup - a lot of players forget one crucial thing about Warhammer 40k and Warhammer...

It's OUR game! We play it the way we want, when we want - MOST of my games are 'legal' in the points, FOC, etc, but once in a while play a game that you want to! Play for fun is my motto

Afterall - whoever heard of the First Company getting ready to do battle but then some official looking twerp with augmented eyes runs up and says..

"Excuse me First Captain - but you can't go to battle without 2 squads of Tactical Marines or Scouts"

"But we're Terminators, chosen of the Emperor, finest of all mankind!"

"Yes but this pink slip says that you can't do battle without the pre-mentioned Tactical Marines or Scouts...Oh, you also have to leave a squad of Terminators behind"


Ah the joy of liberation!

;)

I totally agree with that philosophy. I was just curious as to whether you'd sailed off the map for the game. The idea of dropping the mandatory HQ choice intrigues me too.

lethlis
11-09-2013, 10:56
Note the bit at the bottom IF chapter tactics states " except blah blah" names all the specail ammunition as being non rerollable.

Sternguard are still a great unit.

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2

You can still fire sternguard with normal ammunition(not that you ever really would now that I think about it, it is pretty much either the ignore cover or the wound on 2+ ammo all the time)

metro_gnome
11-09-2013, 10:59
I dunno guys... the "pink slip" is the Codex Astartes...
I'm all for FoC swaps granted by a character or somesuch...
But to ignore the good book doesn't seem very Space Marine...

This philosophy works better for other armies though...
but still only from a fluff angle... for balance FoC is a decent tool...

Ironbone
11-09-2013, 11:29
I am a firm believer in a codex providing you with what you want... and not trying to restrict you from taking what you don't want :wtf:...
There's nothing broken about a Crusader Squad with CT: Salamanders... If the player doesn't think it fits they won't use it...
But if someone does think that their "Fire Scions" homebrew might crusade the galaxy for enemies of the empire and KILL IT WITH FIRE!
Then maybe this combination is right for them...
Well, nothing disallows you of creating such chapter. Just make up your mind, you want to use BT or salamanders rules :D ?

metro_gnome
11-09-2013, 12:00
well no... I cannot take a crusader squad if I have chosen CT: Salamanders...
Crusader Squads are limited to armies with CT:BT... and I find that restriction artificial...
There was a lot of moaning when it was first rumored that using Telion forced an army to have CT:UM...
But I can understand that because it is linked to a unique character... but even there I could go either way...

What I find problematic in such a versatile book is the fact that only one CT unlocks an entire troops choice...
Surely there could be a crusading chapter from a different founding that adopts some of the techniques from templars...
They have been on the longest crusade... and oftentimes crusading chapters do not become so until centuries after founding...

Either way, there is no balance reason for this restriction... it's mainly a fluff one...
and when it comes to restrictions I feel the "fluffy ones" are better done by the player...
An Ultramarine player may never take a crusading squad... but a Marines Errant player may have reason deploy 1 or 2...
But they cannot even though they are a fleet based crusading chapter... because they are a 23rd founding UM successor?

Corvus Corone
11-09-2013, 12:10
I gotta post quick time to register my satisfaction with this great new codex. I mostly play tyranids but I started with marines and I still have an army. This codex is perfect; bringing the last one up to date and adding enough new toys without upsetting the internal balance or feel of the army. This will almost certainly be a great codex for years to come; the sheer amount of viable builds and interesting choices should keep us busy for a long time.

I never thought I'd say it (tyranid player here!), but Cruddace... You did good this time.

As an aside, I can sympathise somewhat with Chaos players pain over chapter tactics. Would it really have been so hard to devote two pages to a 'Legion tactics' special rule set and make a lot of happy chaos players?

williamsond
11-09-2013, 12:45
they could even add "legion tactics" as an after thought suplement or god forbid it a white dwarf article...

vlad78
11-09-2013, 13:27
I dunno guys... the "pink slip" is the Codex Astartes...
I'm all for FoC swaps granted by a character or somesuch...
But to ignore the good book doesn't seem very Space Marine...

This philosophy works better for other armies though...
but still only from a fluff angle... for balance FoC is a decent tool...

Codex astartes never said no jump packs or terminator armours for command squads and honor guards for instance.

nosebiter
11-09-2013, 13:27
I don't think it was intended to be exciting. I think it was intended to update Space Marines for 6th while adding AA elements, a new heavy unit and Chapter Tactics. I'm not sure what else you were expecting.

Clearly some sort of OP unit. A hellturkey/riptide/waveserpent esque gizmo to be spammed into infinity.....

I think it is a wonderfull codex, with loads of different builds for us thst neither min/maxes or netlists.

metro_gnome
11-09-2013, 13:33
Codex astartes never said no jump packs or terminator armours for command squads and honor guards for instance.
I dunno... I've never read it... I just know the big bits...
like "bring a couple of tac squads ya beardy git"...

wyvirn
11-09-2013, 15:15
Forgive me, drinking and Warseer don't mix

ronin_cse
11-09-2013, 17:09
Clearly some sort of OP unit. A hellturkey/riptide/waveserpent esque gizmo to be spammed into infinity.....

I think it is a wonderfull codex, with loads of different builds for us thst neither min/maxes or netlists.

Yeah I think the codex is great as well. It has inspired me to start an allied SM detachment for my DA that will probably turn into its own army.

ThePope
11-09-2013, 20:43
They have updated the enhanced Ebook pretty sharpish with the force req chart and the new included Apoc datasheets are all done to the same decent standard as the rest of the enhanced Ebook.

corps
11-09-2013, 23:53
I didn't read it yet due to lack of time but i look at it and still think it s a ultramarine codex 6 ultramarine special character and 13/ (14 with sucessor) pages of minies pictures. that s significant part of the book. i will read it now and i will post my feelings about it.

williamsond
12-09-2013, 00:35
played first game with new codex today, the ironhands chapter tactics worked well.

Archon of Death
12-09-2013, 00:41
Once again, it's a general boost to survivability, that can be optimized with the correct list to temper the steel of your tactics. I am a much bigger fan of defense than offense, while offense may see you winning faster, defense keeps you winning longer. And in a chapter based on half machine super men with a perverse obsession with the mechanical, it really works.

EDIT: Derp, forgot which topic I was in... This is my reaction to IH doing well if this were the 'Which is the best of the best' topic.

Xerkics
12-09-2013, 01:37
jump packs for raven guard command squad would have been nice for shrike. I also dont see why blood angels should have super chaplains but normal marines cant , i guess i can always use the black templars one and pretend his not bt.

The Emperor
12-09-2013, 04:03
I would've really liked it if a Jump Pack Command Squad were an existing option. I've been wanting to see that for a long time.

MajorWesJanson
12-09-2013, 04:06
I would've really liked it if a Jump Pack Command Squad were an existing option. I've been wanting to see that for a long time.

Blood Angels.

But it does seem like a possibility for a Ravenguard supplement. It's easy enough to do with marginial changes- If they do not take bikes, the command squad may take jump packs for +xx points.

metro_gnome
12-09-2013, 09:44
you can get it with Elam Courbray of the Fire Hawks Chapter in IA:9... for now...

RunepriestRidcully
12-09-2013, 12:39
Looking at it, especially the chapter rules and the mary sue chief librarian, it just feels like GW really has an abiding hatred for chaos players, and to be honest I may just shift to infinity mainly just to play a game where certain factions continually get the shaft (chaos) whilst others basically get handed an I win button.

Polaria
12-09-2013, 12:44
I fail to see the "I WIN" -button... or the shaft.

daveNYC
12-09-2013, 13:06
Tigurius is one hell of a deal though.

[1430]Badger
12-09-2013, 13:18
Well I got my new codex yesterday and have had a quick read through it and for the most part it is better, that said it is an update of the 5th edition book to 6th as it should be. All it needed was polish to make it perfect and all the units worthwhile but alas is still found wanting in some areas. Here's some of the things that have jumped out at me, ignoring centurions since they'll be dissected by everyone and I don't care for them at all.

Honour Guard - better but the chapter champion got worse in that he lost his reroll to hit and wound against an independent character and remains above the base cost.

MotF/ Techmarine - changes to servo arm/harness mean the power axe option is all but worthless now, techmarines are still a little over priced for what you get

Servitors - still slightly over priced, at least their heavy weapon option costs were reduced but to the same price as regular marines despite having a lesser BS. I'm not sure if this is to stop spamming but considering you must take techmarines/MotF to gain access to them, this negates this.

Terminator characters - combi weapons have a strange points cost that doesn't entirely make sense.

Tactical squads - all plasma got cheaper, as did melta gun/MM but the flamer/ML stayed the same

Storm bolters - more expensive for everyone except sternguard and tactical squads (who now get them for 50% off) even though they seem less useful now since rapid fire allows firing at max range on the move now. The vehicle upgrade might see some use now.

scouts - missile launcher increased in points and now most chapters don't have access to telion so it's less accurate. However Storms as dedicated transports is awesome, not overpowered awesome, but fun. It also has scout by default meaning it could be used as an outflanking weapons platform if you so desired.

Razorback - the same cost as chimera, overcosted now given that it loses some transport capacity, repair, firepoints and gains twin linked heavy bolters which are somewhat bland. upgraded weapons are cheaper, but work out as the same points value when upgraded with the big toys.

Sternguard - still pay the sergeant tax as previously mentioned, all special and heavy weapons bar flamer and heavy flamer cost more. Can't comment on the combi weapons.

Terminators - tactical terminator sergeant is explicitly stated as having a power sword it's a shame as a spear/ mace could have made for some interesting modelling opportunities a case of fluff being built around what models are available.

Dreadnought - venerable cheaper but having it also confer an extra attack would have made it even better, rest isn't too bad

Ironclad - now for some reason it needed a thrashing with the nerf hammer maybe to encourage use of the hurricane bolter. Both the seismic hammer and chainfist are unwieldy specialist weapons, so initiative 1 in combat, it needs clarification if it gains an extra attack since walkers gain attacks for extra close combat weapons over the first, it isn't stated implicitly if this overrides specialist weapon, I'd say no. Still useable but nowhere near as good, heavy flamer for free over the melta gun though.

Legion of the Damned - gain a standard armour save in the form of power armour and technically cannot lose their invulnerable save to a vindicare's shield breaker round due to their invulnerable save being a special rule and not wargear and their weapons cost a sane amount of points now.

Assault squads - missed opportunity for the special weapon choices, had melta guns or power weapons/fists been included would have been more fun. Still no option to take a razorback for some silly reason it's not exactly unfluffy.

Land speeders - given they only have 2HP I'd have thought a 5 point base reduction would have been in order but time will tell and it's only my opinion base on a handful of games

Scout bikes - clarified that the sergeant cannot take the grenade launcher.

Thunderfire cannon - gone from bland to awesome in 6th and has now been made a into a true monstrosity if you're on the receiving end.

Vindicator - one of my all time favorites I remember when it made the transition to 40k from epic and there were screams of overpowered and blatant marine favoritism they shouldn't have access to a S10 weapon like that etc. I'm not sure the points increase should be as high as it is, 5 points maybe but not as is (I can admit though I may be biased). Siege shield still not worth it, would have been nice to see something better made of it

Storm raven - loses access points now if it takes side sponsons (contrary to Death from the skies)

Worst of all, the truly terrible thing that cannot be forgiven the auxiliary grenade launcher is gone, it was an overcosted piece of wargear that was available to two people but had they opened it up, it could have been awesome, it's a shame it was one of the things that came back from 2nd edition that just wasn't implemented properly to make it worthwhile like Legion of the Damned were. Also captains/masters with hellfire rounds are gone, it's a shame as I think with some adjustments shooty captains could have been made to work, it would have been nice to have seen special issue ammo (or at least choosing one type of) available for purchase for characters, even for bolt pistols/ storm bolters. In my opinion giving terminators access to kraken rounds as an upgrade might have added an extra dimension to them. The MotF stands out as a missed opportunity for some interesting additions as he has access to all the insane stuff that's in the armoury we could have had some things come back from 2nd editon or some new techno wizadry wargear to buff things, DA got the powerfield generator, why not bring displacer fields, they were hilarious if stupid and dangerous. Some nice things to bring back from 2nd edition codex ultramarines would have been scouts getting access to a special or heavy weapons autocannons as a heavy weapon option, 3 wound chaplains librarians (not the 4 wound variety nor level 4 psykers). I'm not suggesting a return to the 2nd edition dex as it had cheese like putting a veteran sergeant in terminator armour in any squad. As it stands it's an exceptionally well presented updated codex, nothing sublime but I am looking forward to using it, especially with my Iron lords now being an iron hands successor chapter, It will not die on a contemptor mortis; I'm going to need to practice a new evil laugh.

Poseidal
12-09-2013, 13:23
Walkers ignore unwieldy, so the Ironclad (and normal) dread strikes at I.

Freman Bloodglaive
12-09-2013, 14:49
And all specialist weapons pair with any other weapon with the specialist rule, which is why power fist + lightning claw makes for such a popular combination. Call your Master of the Forge's power weapon a "counts as" lightning claw, and he should get a bonus attack.

[1430]Badger
12-09-2013, 15:32
Walkers ignore unwieldy, so the Ironclad (and normal) dread strikes at I.

I cannot find this rule, also I just noticed that dreadnoughts are armed with powerfists not DCCW, that takes care of the specialist weapon bonus, if you can clarify that statement it means I'll be happy and my lamentations were completely unfounded.


And all specialist weapons pair with any other weapon with the specialist rule, which is why power fist + lightning claw makes for such a popular combination. Call your Master of the Forge's power weapon a "counts as" lightning claw, and he should get a bonus attack.

MotF/techmarine are explicitly stated as only having access to power axes a lightning claw is a different weapon entirely to a power weapon. The remark was that it's either servo arm/harness attacks or bp + power axe attacks, not both. Which was one of the best thing about techmarines.

Ssilmath
12-09-2013, 15:37
Badger;6913836']I cannot find this rule, also I just noticed that dreadnoughts are armed with powerfists not DCCW, that takes care of the specialist weapon bonus, if you can clarify that statement it means I'll be happy and my lamentations were completely unfounded. Under the rules for Unwieldy in the BRB, page 43.




MotF/techmarine are explicitly stated as only having access to power axes a lightning claw is a different weapon entirely to a power weapon. The remark was that it's either servo arm/harness attacks or bp + power axe attacks, not both. Which was one of the best thing about techmarines. Both Techmarines and Masters of the Forge may take weapons from the Melee, Ranged or Special Issue Wargear Lists (And MOTF can take Chapter Relics), page 166 of the Space Marine Codex.

Freman Bloodglaive
12-09-2013, 22:17
Badger;6913836']I cannot find this rule, also I just noticed that dreadnoughts are armed with powerfists not DCCW, that takes care of the specialist weapon bonus, if you can clarify that statement it means I'll be happy and my lamentations were completely unfounded.

Page 43. Unwieldy doesn't count for Monstrous Creatures or Walkers.

EDIT: Didn't read Ssilmath's post.

Vegeta365
13-09-2013, 12:01
Pretty much this. The stormtalon does better at dedicated anti-air. The hunter/stalker comes in if you're light on points (because the talon does need to spend at least some points to upgrade the heavy bolters to something functional) and have an opportunity to do list tailoring. If you're facing light flyers, the stalker is better, if you're facing AV 12 flyers, the hunter is much better. Really, it would have made more sense to do a single AA tank with a 'dispersed fire' (more shots) and 'concentrated fire' (better AP) option, rather than the multi-target rule. The current rule on the stalker seems to exist to split 8 dice at a pair of ground targets when you have nothing better to do. Which is a shame, since I really like the look of the model.

Have you ran the numbers on your statement as I am not sure you are correct.

A storm talon with TL lascannon is similar cost to two hunters and when I ran the numbers was not as good at taking out armour 12 flyers. Plus 2 hunters can take out 2 targets and if they miss can hit in future turns! They take up 2 slots which can be an issue depending on your list of course.

I am not sure it is cut and dry like you are making out.

Telemachus
14-09-2013, 19:02
I got my hands on the book earlier in the week and played my first 1750pt game against a Khorne Beserker list yesterday.

Apologies in advance if others have already pointed things out, but here are my impressions.

1. The book itself - impressive, and imo worth the 35 cost. Full colour printing on every page doesn't come cheap.

2. The content - hmmm. I'm actually a bit undecided here. Love the extra fluff for other Chapters and the fact that GW has made the codex for Marines, instead of Ultramarines. However, I kind of miss the full page of fluff we got in the last codex for Land Raiders, Rhinos, Razorbacks and Drop Pods. I appreciate this is a small thing in the grand scheme of things and probably entirely to do with the size and cost of the book, but for me it's a bit of a loss.

3. The book in gameplay - This is where I felt let down. I felt there was too much jumping about to nail down rules for it to be a comfortable tool to use. For example, take a Chaplain (I did yesterday); his stats are on page 165 and you're sent to page 81 to read about him. But if you want a quick reminder of how his crozius arcanum and rosarius work you're sent to pages 122 and 125 respectively. Whereas with the last codex, the rules for his wargear, and special rules were on his page, in this case page 58 of the old codex.

It will be something I get used to in time no doubt, but at the moment, it just felt a little disjointed as an aid to gaming.

Overall? I'd have to give it 7/10.

Cheers

Latro_
14-09-2013, 23:16
Played a few games tonight using the imperial fists CT. Bolter drill is nice but it does not seem to change the game up much, tank hunter on devis thou! oh lord thats so useful! They just feel so much more punch, a quad gun is defo a good idea i think as is maybe even going for a lascannon or two as it maeks them just super reliable.

I'm also considering a unit of 10 with 4 HBs for the re-roll abd light vehicle hunting.

Also came up against a thunderfisr cannon! oh lawd with barrage and boosting any terrain item this is also a no-brainer for marines i think.

Ssilmath
15-09-2013, 02:05
Played my first game with the new book, Ultramarines Successors vs. Shoota boy Spam. Ultramarine Tactics are pretty nice, all told. Highlight of Chapter Tactics working out was a Squad of Sternguard gunning down Nob Bikers (With Vortex of Doom assistance) and 2 Tactical Squads + Heavy Bolter Devastators killing 21 Boyz, all on the Tactical Tactics turn. Those rerolls are very handy.

zero88
18-09-2013, 02:28
Didn't want to create a new thread for this since there's a million of them right now:

In regards to "Counts-as" characters, can you use a "counts-as" character for successor Chapters? I've searched the internet and I'm finding mixed answers. If I wanted to do a White Scars successor chapter, such as the Dark Hunters, could I use a counts-as Khan in it since it is a White Scars Successor? Or for Raptors could you do a counts-as Shrike? Or Tigurius for Novamarines? It's clear that you can't do a Lysander/Vulkan etc stand-in for something with completely different chapter tactics like Ultramarines, but it's hazy for the successors/homebrews.

The Emperor
18-09-2013, 02:40
I'd say yes. If you're doing a successor chapter, then so long as the character has the same Chapter Tactics as the rest of the detachment then it's okay.

ehlijen
18-09-2013, 02:49
You can take any SC, paint him any colour you want and call the army any chapter you want as long as you use the Chapter traits required by that SC. You can make a blue U-tlimate Warrior army and use a blue Kahn in it, as long as you use the White Scars chapter tactics.

Note that that means that without using allies, no Iron Hands army can include any SCs...

Voss
18-09-2013, 04:28
Have you ran the numbers on your statement as I am not sure you are correct.

A storm talon with TL lascannon is similar cost to two hunters and when I ran the numbers was not as good at taking out armour 12 flyers. Plus 2 hunters can take out 2 targets and if they miss can hit in future turns! They take up 2 slots which can be an issue depending on your list of course.

I am not sure it is cut and dry like you are making out.
Well, not if you're throwing a lascannon on it, no. But other than the HBs, that is the worst option. Try it with skyhammers or typhoons- the kind of volume of fire it is actually designed for.



Badger;6913836']
MotF/techmarine are explicitly stated as only having access to power axes a lightning claw is a different weapon entirely to a power weapon. The remark was that it's either servo arm/harness attacks or bp + power axe attacks, not both. Which was one of the best thing about techmarines.
And why it was taken away. Techmarines are supposed to be support pieces, not cheap combat monsters. What was more surprising was that it was allowed to go on for so long.

Losing Command
18-09-2013, 04:40
... Note that that means that without using allies, no Iron Hands army can include any SCs ...

Imagine if you still could, and give any SC you'd like It Will Not Die that way. Makes me kinda glad you can't actually :D


And why it was taken away. Techmarines are supposed to be support pieces, not cheap combat monsters. What was more surprising was that it was allowed to go on for so long.

A Master of the forge could throw out more attacks than a Chaptermaster, and even the majority of marine SC's. Somehow not suprising they got rid of it ;)

Freman Bloodglaive
18-09-2013, 07:51
As already said, Masters of the Forge have access to the melee armoury.

That said, I'm not sure how to integrate a servo harness and melee weapon anyway. Does the servo harness count as a pair of weapons? Can it gain a bonus attack for an additional specialist weapon?

ehlijen
18-09-2013, 08:07
And why it was taken away. Techmarines are supposed to be support pieces, not cheap combat monsters. What was more surprising was that it was allowed to go on for so long.

Techmarines have never been combat monsters since 4th ed. Taking away a wound, any kind of invul save and access to terminator honours in 5th ed meant they were never going to outfight the other marine characters against anything but maybe ogryns. They got a slight boost again when a 2+ save meant something again in 6th, but other than that, stormshields and relic blades (ie captains) ruled for marine combat till this new codex (still need to gauge things in there).