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Kaleithel
07-09-2013, 11:22
Hi guys!

While I still don't have the new codex, I feel pretty excited about White Scars and their speciak rules. How do you feel about them? Will they become a viable tournament-proof chapter? And to whom are they going to ally in most cases, in your opinion?

I also have one question about WS bike squads: how many models can you deploy per unit? Are they troops?

Inquisitor Shego
07-09-2013, 11:39
If a detachment includes a captain on a bike, then squads of 5+ are troop, which is the same as the last codex. If you take Khan, then your bikes and dedicated transport vehicles also have scout. I believe their doctrine also gives them hit and run, and +1 to jink saves. In short, this looks freaking scary/awesome/broken, and White Scars are going to be charging at you like a bat out of hell

Kaleithel
07-09-2013, 11:59
I see, thanks. And what's the maximum size of that unit?

Inquisitor Shego
07-09-2013, 12:05
The same as it always was. 10

Kaleithel
07-09-2013, 13:47
And what about alliances? For instance, can an army of GK ally with a specific SM chapter detachment, let's say WS, considering it an ally of convenience?

Camman1984
07-09-2013, 13:51
I am using white scars for my bike marine force, i love the look of the new rules, pretty powerful but i would say that there are more powerul CT where tournies are concerned seeing as bikes are still just bikes but with a bit more durability and wont win many combats or battles alone.

Killgore
07-09-2013, 14:29
Gravguns on bikes will be lethal! Luckily they are limited to two per unit, which is still 6 shots with relentless!

And then theres the small matter of the CC monster that is the mounted Command squad.

I could see Bike themed WS lists being pretty brutal.

Camman1984
07-09-2013, 14:59
Does the extra jink, move through cover and HoW boost apply to attack bikes too? They will make excellent fire support platforms. With a good cover save, t5 and 2 wounds you may be able to play the old wound allocation game by shuffling them around when one gets hit.

Kaleithel
07-09-2013, 19:41
But can I ally White Scars using a prinary GK detachment?

Grndhog89
07-09-2013, 19:41
Last I checked SM bikers have 1 wound, not 2........

As for WS in general? I think they have some strengths and weaknesses. Major strength being they have capable AA (storm-talon is fitting for them) and their bikes are relatively well costed.

Weaknesses? A WS themed army comes across as disjointed to me. How you say? The HoW boost, while nice, just doesn't jive with how WS should play (or biker forces in general for that matter). You don't WANT to assault with your bikes that is a terrible plan. Other holes I see with WS lists are beyond bikes and storm-talons I don't see anything else that fits too well with that list theme, so other slots go kind of unused. Sure you can have some drop podding Sternguard I guess. However, this leads into my next biggest gripe about a WS list. There is a lack of synergy amongst the units. The CT and easy access to bikes is practically trying to throw SM bike squads in your face, but bikers at the end of the day are just a TL bolter. Sorry to say but the humble bolter has lost a lot of its bite over the years and its just not that good. Combine it with poor assault capabilities for bikers and a lack of a real counter-assault unit in WS themed armies and I see some big holes. Note that I am talking about all this in the context of you wishing to run a "proper" WS list (IE all bikes and fast stuff, so no assault termies, etc).

My suggestion is to either play Ravenwing as your primary detachment because their HQ and synergy amongst bikes are better (dakka banner, Dark Shroud). The banner restores some of the aforementioned "bite" of the bolter. Taking RW allies also allows you to a power-field generator, which to my understanding is something C:SM did not receive (huzzah!). Then ally in some White Scars with a storm-talon. As a stand-alone force I think WS will suffer like Ravenwing but in a different way.........WS are a bunch of piecemeal gimmicks thrown together that don't really work well with one another and other elements of the SM codex, and lack a real "hard" counter-assault element. Whereas Ravenwing's major weakness is baledrakes. Nuff said lol.

Dryaktylus
07-09-2013, 19:46
If a detachment includes a captain on a bike, then squads of 5+ are troop, which is the same as the last codex.

The Chapter Master has this rule now too.

Voss
07-09-2013, 20:03
But can I ally White Scars using a prinary GK detachment?

Yep. Chapter Tactics just happen. It isn't like taking Sammael to unlock ravenwing units, for example. And unlocking bikes as troops happen for 'a detachment'; it doesn't specify that it has to be the primary detachment.

Kaleithel
07-09-2013, 20:06
Yep. Chapter Tactics just happen. It isn't like taking Sammael to unlock ravenwing units, for example. And unlocking bikes as troops happen for 'a detachment'; it doesn't specify that it has to be the primary detachment.

So they use their chapter abilities even in an allied detachment. Interesting... I'm thinking to a small all-bike WS squad to add speed to my GKs. Is their cost the same of 5th edition?

Dryaktylus
07-09-2013, 20:16
Is their cost the same of 5th edition?

Bikes and Scoutbikes are cheaper, bike for Captain/Chapter Master too. Khan is also (much) cheaper.

Voss
07-09-2013, 20:24
Bikes and Scoutbikes are cheaper, bike for Captain/Chapter Master too. Khan is also (much) cheaper.

Khan is a real bargain when you get right down to it. Moondrakken is just a bit more than a normal bike, and without it, he is only a rhino more than a normal captain, but with a possible ID power sword, furious charge for himself (eh), and scout for most of his troops (and other units that take a DT, which incidentally includes terminators who bring their own land raiders!)

Hawthorne
07-09-2013, 20:40
Weaknesses? A WS themed army comes across as disjointed to me. How you say? The HoW boost, while nice, just doesn't jive with how WS should play (or biker forces in general for that matter). You don't WANT to assault with your bikes that is a terrible plan. Other holes I see with WS lists are beyond bikes and storm-talons I don't see anything else that fits too well with that list theme, so other slots go kind of unused. Sure you can have some drop podding Sternguard I guess. However, this leads into my next biggest gripe about a WS list. There is a lack of synergy amongst the units. The CT and easy access to bikes is practically trying to throw SM bike squads in your face, but bikers at the end of the day are just a TL bolter. Sorry to say but the humble bolter has lost a lot of its bite over the years and its just not that good. Combine it with poor assault capabilities for bikers and a lack of a real counter-assault unit in WS themed armies and I see some big holes. Note that I am talking about all this in the context of you wishing to run a "proper" WS list (IE all bikes and fast stuff, so no assault termies, etc).
First off, Assault Marines fit in pretty well (another fast unit, optional deepstrike (with high potential for homing beacons)) and is a nice solid close combat unit to support. And of course Scout Bikers (they receive all the same benefits, the BS loss isn't a huge deal with twin-linked, and they offer almost the same CC punch with some additional utility for the army). Although expensive (for an already expensive army) including Vanguard Veterans would be totally fine fluff wise (I think) and could give you more close combat abilities without taking up that valuable Fast Attack slot for WS (Since you have Scout Bikers, Storm Talons and Assault Marines fighting over that).

Also bikers shouldn't never charge. Yes they are still marines but they have Hammer of Wrath (and bikes have good enough movement to get good use out of it) at S5, and T5. No you shouldn't charge them into full strength units of say Orcs or whatever.
You soften them up with your strong shooting and finish them off.

Telemachus
07-09-2013, 21:01
Do they have Skilled Rider?

Cheers

Blempoll
07-09-2013, 21:09
Yep. Chapter Tactics just happen. It isn't like taking Sammael to unlock ravenwing units, for example. And unlocking bikes as troops happen for 'a detachment'; it doesn't specify that it has to be the primary detachment.

My Nob Bikers are loving this..

I have a CC deathstar..

Chuck in The Khan in a bike squad as allies and i have another unit my enemy cant ignore

Dryaktylus
07-09-2013, 21:10
Do they have Skilled Rider?

Cheers

Well, yes. Though it isn't called so. Passing DT tests and +1 to jink saves is part of "Born in the Saddle" (the rest is +1S for HoW).

Darnok
07-09-2013, 21:12
White Scars are a Codex chapter. You can field them any way you want, and it is still "fluffy".

Telemachus
07-09-2013, 21:21
Well, yes. Though it isn't called so. Passing DT tests and +1 to jink saves is part of "Born in the Saddle" (the rest is +1S for HoW).

Thanks. :)

Grndhog89
07-09-2013, 22:03
First off, Assault Marines fit in pretty well (another fast unit, optional deepstrike (with high potential for homing beacons)) and is a nice solid close combat unit to support. And of course Scout Bikers (they receive all the same benefits, the BS loss isn't a huge deal with twin-linked, and they offer almost the same CC punch with some additional utility for the army). Although expensive (for an already expensive army) including Vanguard Veterans would be totally fine fluff wise (I think) and could give you more close combat abilities without taking up that valuable Fast Attack slot for WS (Since you have Scout Bikers, Storm Talons and Assault Marines fighting over that).

Also bikers shouldn't never charge. Yes they are still marines but they have Hammer of Wrath (and bikes have good enough movement to get good use out of it) at S5, and T5. No you shouldn't charge them into full strength units of say Orcs or whatever.
You soften them up with your strong shooting and finish them off.

You must not have read the forums much for the duration of 6th edition. Or else you would've seen the threads talking about how the assault marine just doesn't measure up in today's meta. They quite frankly are not worth the valuable FA slot and with no way to make them troops they doubly aren't worth it. Remember, White Scars armies suffer from the same thing Ravenwing do........baledrakes. Just WS don't even have extendable 4++'s to hand out which makes them even more vulnerable. I'd argue you need those FA slots for storm talons, because 1 storm talon is not going to be able to take down a baledrake and there will be more than one in tourney settings mark my words.

On the charging issue; I still don't think bikers should ever charge. They just don't have a punch to them. Charging something like guardsmen or fire warriors? Okay sure. But thats about the only targets I'd charge them into ever. My point being here is White Scars don't have an assault/counter-assault unit that can keep up with the majority of their force. See above for assault marines.

You still didn't address the disjointed feel of White Scars lists and how there isn't any real synergy there. I said before and I'll say again; bikers just having a TL boltgun and 1 or 2 special weapons is not very daunting to most 6th ed armies mostly due to more bodies being on the table to eat bolter fire. White Scars are still just bikes bikes bikes.......without many supporting elements. If you had a Dark Shroud, dakka banner, Black Knights, or power field generator equivalent then I'd argue WS are superior hands down. However, they lack the synergy and the "fast" style of the army does not fit necessarily with the rest of the SM codex or the new flashy units. Also, I wouldn't recommend Hunters or Stalkers for AA.

I still think White Scars are viable and will be plenty of fun to play, but in a tourney setting the disjointed playstyle of the Scars and what the SM codex has to offer is going to handicap them. They will need allies for sure.

Hali
08-09-2013, 10:50
White Scars are not "just bikes bikes bikes..." and never have been in the background, they just have a higher percentage of skilled riders than other chapters. Sure you can make an all bike army if you want to but that's more of an internet "lol space motorcycle" deal and you could just as easily do it with Iron Hands(feel no pain bikers have potential), Ultramarines, or any other chapter in the codex if you felt like it. Putting a Captain or Chapter Master on a bike is what allows an all bike army, not choosing White Scars. Sure White Scars give a bonus to bikes, but they also give practically your entire army scout and hit and run. These rules open up a whole range of tactics. Scout your assault termies forward in a land raider crusader for an earlier charge, outflank your sternguard in thier rhino, scout your devestators into a better firing posistion while their razorback hangs out, hit and run your tacticals out of combat so they can fire pistols and charge back in for bonus attacks or go capture something in turn six.

I will definitely concur that assault marines are a poor choice just about all the time though, but then marines in general tend to lack great assault options. Most of the time it's better to just shoot things down but if you want/need to kill something in close combat a command squad will do alright, put them on bikes with an apothecary and they get four attacks each on the charge plus the hammer of wrath and relentless bolters. Or if you really need to smack something assault termies/centurions in a land raider are an expensive but effective option.

Bikes are good, but they are a lot better if you bring a few other toys along too. You have an entire codex to use and they are ALL White Scars.

Mankov
08-09-2013, 13:08
White Scars are a Codex chapter. You can field them any way you want, and it is still "fluffy". Technically yes, they are a codex chapter, unless you adhere to some older fluff (index astartes, epic: armageddon), then there are some restrictions like no devastators, no dreadnoughts, or nothing without a motorized transport. These restrictions haven't been mentioned in ages though, so one could choose to ignore that. But i agree that there are enough other choices in the codex that fit the White Scars theme just fine. As has been said before in this thread, White Scars are not all about bikes.
Which brings me to my next point. Bikes got cheaper, but I'm sceptical whether they are a viable choice. A lot of armies can really hurt a bike-heavy list (e.g. Eldar: Lots of S6 and bladestorm/monofilament, Dark Eldar: poison). A better jink save is nice, but won't save them from sheer weight of fire. I'll give it a try next week.

Darnok
08-09-2013, 13:24
Technically yes, they are a codex chapter, unless you adhere to some older fluff (index astartes, epic: armageddon), then there are some restrictions like no devastators, no dreadnoughts, or nothing without a motorized transport.

While I remember these, I also remember even staff members ignoring them - there was a Dreadnought in a WS army feutured in WD, for example. And who is to stop you from using transports for troops and/or devastators, or Droppods for Dreads? There are lots of options to add mobility to almost all units of a SM force.

I just think WS players should be less narrow minded than "bikes, bikes, bikes!", and consider all the toys available to them instead.

Zeebeest
08-09-2013, 13:24
White Scars a by far the best allied detachement SM.

just a captain on a bike with a bike squad as troops.

but only as detatchment for a potential counter attack or last minute objective steal.

Inquisitor Shego
08-09-2013, 13:26
Is another weakness of bikes that they cannot assault things on the 2nd floor of a ruin or building? Ergo they can hide atop balconies and rain fire on those bikers below?

Poseidal
08-09-2013, 14:10
Universal hit and run is really strong IMO.

It isn't just bikes, but Tacticals, Assault Marines and Scouts having it can be really good, and in effect they have the closest to the old 'chapter tactics' (but Hit and Run is better).

Vector Strike
08-09-2013, 17:30
White Scars are not "just bikes bikes bikes..." and never have been in the background, they just have a higher percentage of skilled riders than other chapters. Sure you can make an all bike army if you want to but that's more of an internet "lol space motorcycle" deal and you could just as easily do it with Iron Hands(feel no pain bikers have potential), Ultramarines, or any other chapter in the codex if you felt like it. Putting a Captain or Chapter Master on a bike is what allows an all bike army, not choosing White Scars. Sure White Scars give a bonus to bikes, but they also give practically your entire army scout and hit and run. These rules open up a whole range of tactics. Scout your assault termies forward in a land raider crusader for an earlier charge, outflank your sternguard in thier rhino, scout your devestators into a better firing posistion while their razorback hangs out, hit and run your tacticals out of combat so they can fire pistols and charge back in for bonus attacks or go capture something in turn six.

I will definitely concur that assault marines are a poor choice just about all the time though, but then marines in general tend to lack great assault options. Most of the time it's better to just shoot things down but if you want/need to kill something in close combat a command squad will do alright, put them on bikes with an apothecary and they get four attacks each on the charge plus the hammer of wrath and relentless bolters. Or if you really need to smack something assault termies/centurions in a land raider are an expensive but effective option.

Bikes are good, but they are a lot better if you bring a few other toys along too. You have an entire codex to use and they are ALL White Scars.

only the Bike type have scout. But WS termies, centurions and the entire army have hit & run (not vehicles)

Mankov
08-09-2013, 18:06
Yes, i remember seeing that WS Dreadnought. I didn't mean to imply that these old fluff restrictions impose any real limitations for unit selection. I was merely pointing out that "back in the old days" White Scars were not really that codex chapter as we know them today. I wouldn't include dreadnoughts or devastators in my army, but that's just me - i wouldn't look down on fellow White Scars players for using them. As you pointed out, they are Space Marines after all, thus any selection from the actual codex fits their fluff.

MagicHat
08-09-2013, 18:12
Hit and Run is one of the more powerful CT right now.



On the charging issue; I still don't think bikers should ever charge. They just don't have a punch to them. Charging something like guardsmen or fire warriors? Okay sure. But thats about the only targets I'd charge them into ever. My point being here is White Scars don't have an assault/counter-assault unit that can keep up with the majority of their force. See above for assault marines.


I completely disagree.
What threat does a tactical squad pose in CC against bikers? Barely nothing, you can charge in, cause more damage and be locked in combat in the opponents shooting phase, only to Hit and Run and do it all again. This is how you protect yourself from Heldrakes.
Also, the bike command squad can very much keep up with the rest of the squads and deliver the pain.

thanoson
12-09-2013, 06:25
Technically yes, they are a codex chapter, unless you adhere to some older fluff (index astartes, epic: armageddon), then there are some restrictions like no devastators, no dreadnoughts, or nothing without a motorized transport. These restrictions haven't been mentioned in ages though, so one could choose to ignore that. But i agree that there are enough other choices in the codex that fit the White Scars theme just fine. As has been said before in this thread, White Scars are not all about bikes.
Which brings me to my next point. Bikes got cheaper, but I'm sceptical whether they are a viable choice. A lot of armies can really hurt a bike-heavy list (e.g. Eldar: Lots of S6 and bladestorm/monofilament, Dark Eldar: poison). A better jink save is nice, but won't save them from sheer weight of fire. I'll give it a try next week.

Funny you would say this. Just recently, I ran my Ravenwing against Tau. This included the crisis suit dude with all the drones, his bodyguard, 2 riptides, 2 2 man broadside squads and 3 fire warrior squads in devilfish. I went 1st, moved within 5" inches of his gunline after scout and normal move. They managed to blow up 2 devilfish, kill a broadside team and leave the commander with 1 wound left and 3 marker drones. He blasted at Sammeual's command squad with everything trying to get rid of the FNP banner.Riptide lets loose, causing 6 wounds to the squad. Sammuel deflects all of them. 2 Firewarrior squads unleash on me causing 19 wounds. Sammuel deflects all of those. His entire force killed 2 things that turn and I was within 5" of his troops. He quickly tapped out. Saying that bikes are lacking and can't take getting shot is ridiculous. I'm 8-0 with my bike army. One thing I will say though, WS don't have the punch Black Knights have.

bad dice
12-09-2013, 12:53
Why do ppl keep sayingthat whit scars should not charge.

The unit that you charcters are in should defently charge.

1) they are relentless so you don't give up shooting for the charge.
2) on charge bikers have 2 attacs and a free st5 hit. That is still bettter then most units will put up in return.
3) The untis whit the KHAN will hit on s5
4) They have hit and run giving them a 5/6 chance to break free in the enemys turn.

Lets be honest most armies dont take assualt troops. So they will be far more able to kill your untis whit shooting then whit assault.
So by assaulting you minimise your opponents dammage and maximise yours. Specialy since you wont be giving up much if anny shooting.
And on top of that units locked in combat cant manover so keeping them of a objecitve will be easyer.

bad dice
12-09-2013, 13:22
Funny you would say this. Just recently, I ran my Ravenwing against Tau. This included the crisis suit dude with all the drones, his bodyguard, 2 riptides, 2 2 man broadside squads and 3 fire warrior squads in devilfish. I went 1st, moved within 5" inches of his gunline after scout and normal move. They managed to blow up 2 devilfish, kill a broadside team and leave the commander with 1 wound left and 3 marker drones. He blasted at Sammeual's command squad with everything trying to get rid of the FNP banner.Riptide lets loose, causing 6 wounds to the squad. Sammuel deflects all of them. 2 Firewarrior squads unleash on me causing 19 wounds. Sammuel deflects all of those. His entire force killed 2 things that turn and I was within 5" of his troops. He quickly tapped out. Saying that bikes are lacking and can't take getting shot is ridiculous. I'm 8-0 with my bike army. One thing I will say though, WS don't have the punch Black Knights have.

'so your smammuel saved 25 wounds. what he got 2 + save whit a rerroll?

Weazel
12-09-2013, 14:00
only the Bike type have scout. But WS termies, centurions and the entire army have hit & run (not vehicles)

I also have to add that Scout "move" cannot take you out of your deployment zone in 6th. People are still playing Scout like they did in 5th. I still does confer Outflank though.

MajorWesJanson
12-09-2013, 14:06
I also have to add that Scout "move" cannot take you out of your deployment zone in 6th. People are still playing Scout like they did in 5th. I still does confer Outflank though.

Not true. But that is a debate for the rules thread.

Weazel
12-09-2013, 15:43
Not true. But that is a debate for the rules thread.

Hmm, you're right actually. I'm sure we double checked Scout once upon a game and somehow understood it wrong. Oh well, carry on.

zero88
12-09-2013, 16:28
Saying White Scars shouldn't assault is crap. Like others said H&R is absolutely HUGE. Once you get your intitial charges in on turn 2, you shouldn't be taking much fire after that; disengaging at the end of your opponents assault phase lets you re-shoot and re-charge again on all of your turns. A smart player will judge it so that you don't wipe out an enemy squad in your assault phase, so that you don't take return fire. Against Drakes the WS tactic is going to be praying to Khan you get first turn, and getting everything locked in combat on the second turn so when the hellturkey comes in all your bikes are engaged so he's forced to go after lesser targets like your vehicles.

Morathi's Darkest Sin
12-09-2013, 16:45
Regarding theme, the section on White Scars in the codex clearly indicates they have stepped back from the 'Scars are fast only' they even suggest Dreadnoughts have been taken in dire circumstances, even though they still add the line most White Scars would see that as a fate worse than death. The other thing folks sometimes forget is the battles we play are snapshots to a greater conflict. Who is to say that moments before the battle began, Thunderhawk dropships or Stormravens descended out of the sky and dropped Devestator Scars etc right onto the battleline to support the bikers and other forces. :)

lethlis
12-09-2013, 17:33
Regarding theme, the section on White Scars in the codex clearly indicates they have stepped back from the 'Scars are fast only' they even suggest Dreadnoughts have been taken in dire circumstances, even though they still add the line most White Scars would see that as a fate worse than death. The other thing folks sometimes forget is the battles we play are snapshots to a greater conflict. Who is to say that moments before the battle began, Thunderhawk dropships or Stormravens descended out of the sky and dropped Devestator Scars etc right onto the battleline to support the bikers and other forces. :)

On principle I would have to have about 1 in about 18 of my foot guys removed from the battle because they failed their dangerous terrain test as they would have to be deployed by the storm ravens at high speeds. I am interested to see if power lances will start to make an apperance in white scars lists. Hit and run seems like it is designed for it. They can also now use units as slingshots. Charge a unit, then hit and run 3d6 in a nominated direction.

Vector Strike
12-09-2013, 22:03
Correcting myself: Centurions and Termies do not get Hit & Run (the only exceptions, in fact)


Why do ppl keep sayingthat whit scars should not charge.

The unit that you charcters are in should defently charge.

1) they are relentless so you don't give up shooting for the charge.
2) on charge bikers have 2 attacs and a free st5 hit. That is still bettter then most units will put up in return.
3) The untis whit the KHAN will hit on s5
4) They have hit and run giving them a 5/6 chance to break free in the enemys turn.

Lets be honest most armies dont take assualt troops. So they will be far more able to kill your untis whit shooting then whit assault.
So by assaulting you minimise your opponents dammage and maximise yours. Specialy since you wont be giving up much if anny shooting.
And on top of that units locked in combat cant manover so keeping them of a objecitve will be easyer.

But... only models with Furious Charge get the +1S in the charge. Furious Charge doesn't get shared by the squad.

thanoson
13-09-2013, 07:50
'so your smammuel saved 25 wounds. what he got 2 + save whit a rerroll?
3+ with the FNP banner. Truly, it was an exceptional day for the Boss. I was next to a Nightshroud, so I was getting the plus to jinx saves as well.