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TheBearminator
09-09-2013, 18:44
How come eldar have so many troop choices? From start they can have guardian defenders, storm guardians, more elite-ish dire avengers, rangers with sniper rifles, and finally the fastest unit in the game; eldar jetbikes. Then, by choosing a plain spiritseer as HQ you can get both wraithguard and wraithblades as (T6!) troops. I count 7 troop choices in total. Yeah, and then of course, as a bonus you could upgrade a unit of rangers to alaitoc pathfinders if you chose Illic Nightspear, to add even more variety.

Yeah, agree, Eldar has a wide range of units in general. But how many armies can compete with their diversity or sheer number of troop choices?

I recently started playing dark eldar. They get kabalites and wyches. Two choices of squishy t3 guys, one shooty and one close combat. Then by adding a heamonculi they get wracks as well which are quite a different unit. If they also include the unique character (not always accepted in tournaments) Baron Sathonyx they can take hellions as well. That's a total of four units.

I agree diversity can't be translated into a number like this, but it disturbs me a bit that Eldar can get both "cheap" cannon fodder, more elite like soldiers, jet bikes, snipers AND two kinds of nasty T6 beasts.

Has GW started a trend of adding troop choices to codices? I haven't got either the Tau codex or the Space Marines codex so I can't tell. But I sure hope I'll get access to new troops in the next Ork, IG and Dark Eldar codices.

Charistoph
09-09-2013, 18:52
Space Marines just got Crusader Squads, sort of. And if you ignore certain things they can have the following:

Natural:
Tactical Squads
Scouts Squads
Crusader Squads
Assault Squads
Death Company
Death Company Dreadnought
Grey Hunters
Blood Claws

Movable:
Space Marine Bikes
Deathwing Terminators
Ravenwing Squads
Sanguinary Guard
Wolf Guard
Thunderwolf Cavalry Wolf Packs

True, you get limited for Troops depending on what you want, but the options are there.

Now, Tau, are rather buggered. But hey, at least you aren't the previous Necrons, right?

Mankov
09-09-2013, 18:59
Space Marines have access to Tactical Marines and Scouts as Troops. If you choose a chapter master/captain/korsarro khan on bike, bike squads of at least 5 models become troops as well (I'm disregarding the crusader squad because they are only due to the inclusion of black templars in the new codex). It seems that there is not a general tendency towards more troops. I don't have the new Tau codex either, so i don't know if they have more troops - used to be just fire warriors and kroot though IIRC.
Eldar really have a lot of great choices in their codex - not only in the troops section, but also in the other sections.




I agree diversity can't be translated into a number like this, but it disturbs me a bit that Eldar can get both "cheap" cannon fodder, more elite like soldiers, jet bikes, snipers AND two kinds of nasty T6 beasts.



I agree, but the units themself are still very specialised. They are not all-rounders like the troops of other races IMHO. In contrast, much like aspect warriors, they fill a special role in their army.

TheBearminator
09-09-2013, 19:09
I agree, but the units themself are still very specialised. They are not all-rounders like the troops of other races IMHO. In contrast, much like aspect warriors, they fill a special role in their army.

Indeed they are, but the dark eldar units are no multi-tools either (let alone their poison weapons can bring down high toughness enemies).

Zaszz
09-09-2013, 19:25
Don't forget however that your basic troops get some really nice transports that can late game fly them right to an objective, plus they are open topped so you can assault after moving the boat too which is sweet. I wouldn't be too upset if other races may get more variety of troop, so long as yours are decent at a job and a bit flexible. I think that's currently the case. I mean look at space marines, generally they get tac squads, or scout squads, but by equipping them with different assault and heavy weapons they can be re tasked to support AV units or AI units etc.

Its also a little funny that a player with poison weapons complains about a guy fielding expensive T6 models as troops. Couldn't you just swarm those with kabalites and on sheer volume of fire make his points seem like a huge waste?

SpanielBear
09-09-2013, 19:26
Actually, guard do reasonably well troop wise.
Guard platoon
Platoon command squad
Heavy weapons team
Special weapons team
Conscripts
Veterans
Penal legion

These can all (aside from penal legion) be upgraded to suit all battlefield roles. Even CC if they get their commissar/power axe blob on. And they have some very nice dedicated transport.

Dark eldar troops I see as being the jaded nobles of commaragh, sitting on objectives in deck-chairs sipping tear-flavoured cocktails watching their elites have fun at the front line.
" I say, Gerald, that reaver just took that guardsman's head clean off, and spelled out his own name in the blood spatter"
"Goodness me, good show!"
"Bally fine show indeed, what. Wait, is that a wraith knight? How tiresome. Gerald, pass my splinter cannon would you, there's a good fellow."

Poseidal
09-09-2013, 19:34
In 3rd edition, all Biel-Tan did was move all the Elite slot Aspect Warriors into troops with no downside.

Denny
09-09-2013, 19:38
Indeed they are, but the dark eldar units are no multi-tools either (let alone their poison weapons can bring down high toughness enemies).

I play both. ;)

Dark Eldar troops do have multipurpose roles; haywire grenades and lance weapons can take out any tank in the game, splinter weapons also work on any target. Hordes suffer against venom spam, assault terminators are neutered by wyches . . .

Compare that to Dire Avengers. They can take out hordes and those 6s to wound can kill terminators, but they have no anti-tank options and no long range weapons . . .

Guardians are nasty at short range, but have no special weapons, no options for a squad leader and cannot take small units (aka venom-spam). Storm guardians cannot disembark and assault on the same turn, and have no bonus save in combat.

Eldar do have the advantage the range of choices, and overall do have a stronger troops slot, but its not as clear cut as you might think. Personally, I love both wyches and warriors (and wracks!), and never feel like I'm missing anything. I'll give you the jet bikes though . . .

If all else fails you can always use allies. :)

Lightning Strike!
09-09-2013, 19:40
Space Marines just got Crusader Squads, sort of. And if you ignore certain things they can have the following:

Like, ignoring the fact that this is spread across various codices?

Unless you're aware of some loophole to have both Death Company and Grey Hunters outside the alliance matrix, that is.


Thunderwolf Cavalry (I think, been a while)

That's incorrect.

Reeniee
09-09-2013, 19:43
In 3rd edition, all Biel-Tan did was move all the Elite slot Aspect Warriors into troops with no downside.

I loved the 3rd Edition rulebook army lists. They were just the best. Sister of Battle HQ as 0-1 Cannoness.

They don't call it true edition for no reason!

Charistoph
09-09-2013, 20:07
Like, ignoring the fact that this is spread across various codices?

Unless you're aware of some loophole to have both Death Company and Grey Hunters outside the alliance matrix, that is.
That's pretty much it. If you want X as Troops, you will have Y Sacrfices. I know I said that in a round about way.


That's incorrect.
Good to know. As I said, it's been a while, I couldn't remember if Super Wolf Rider could do it or not.

Fingers
09-09-2013, 20:15
Well to be honest, SG and DG are pretty much the same thing, with just different weapons. So you have 4 choices unless you put a Spiritseer in there for the Wraith Stuff. They get twice as many as necrons do, but id prefer the necron troops every time :)

Spider-pope
09-09-2013, 20:18
Good to know. As I said, it's been a while, I couldn't remember if Super Wolf Rider could do it or not.

Wolf McWolf on his Wolf makes wolf packs troops, so just swap Thunderwolf cav with them in the list of moveable troops.

TheBearminator
09-09-2013, 21:05
Don't forget however that your basic troops get some really nice transports that can late game fly them right to an objective

Its also a little funny that a player with poison weapons complains about a guy fielding expensive T6 models as troops. Couldn't you just swarm those with kabalites and on sheer volume of fire make his points seem like a huge waste?

Well, most of my open topped amour 10 vehicles tend to be blown to pieces long before last turn. ;) But sure, it's nice to have transports for small units. Can't believe eldar didn't get a transport version of their vyper, with their small elite cc units and all.

No, I don't whine about the wraith units killing my army. I'd clap my hands if my eldar opponent brings them if I play DE. What I'm whining about is the sheer amount of choices eldar players enjoy that neither of my armies do.




If all else fails you can always use allies. :)

That's the problem these days as I see it. When everything else fails we turn to allies. I don't want that to be the solution. I want diversity in my own codex. I also wonder specifically about this jetbikes thing. Weren't dark eldar supposed to be the fastest army in space? And yet it's their bright colored cousins that are the only army that gets to take jetbikes as troops? Sure hope we'll see a change to that soon.

I'm not half as angry as I sound. Just so you know. Interesting thoughts by the way. :)

A.T.
09-09-2013, 21:08
Has GW started a trend of adding troop choices to codices?It comes and goes. Orks (the oldest book now) have mobs of boyz (in slugga and shoota, regular and 'ard varieties), gretchin, nobz, nob bikers, deff dreads, and meganobz.

Then you have GK with the ability to make just about anything scoring (grand master), plus purifiers, paladins, terminators, strike squads, and henchmen, and a few of Cruddaces with guard having a bunch as noted while nids have warriors, stealers, two types of gaunt, rippers, and tervigons. The recent chaos dex also has 7 different troops choices.

At the other end of the scale you have tau and crons with two (one of the few areas they don't excel in) and the lowly sisters with just one.

Poseidal
09-09-2013, 22:28
In 3rd edition, all Biel-Tan did was move all the Elite slot Aspect Warriors into troops with no downside.

I was wrong, there was a downside (re-reading the 3rd ed rulebook). They excluded all non aspect/transport options.

Minsc
09-09-2013, 23:49
How come eldar have so many troop choices? *snip* I agree diversity can't be translated into a number like this, but it disturbs me a bit that Eldar can get both "cheap" cannon fodder, more elite like soldiers, jet bikes, snipers AND two kinds of nasty T6 beasts.

Funny that this "issue" get's raised now.

In 4th they had:
- Defender Guardians
- Storm Guardians
- Dire Avengers
- Rangers
- Pathfinders (without the need for a SC)
- Jetbikes.
(- Wraithguards)

Now in 6th, they have:
- Defender Guardians
- Storm Guardians
- Dire Avengers
- Rangers
- Jetbikes
(- Pathfinders)
(- Wraithblades)
(- Wraithguards)

They actually have 1 less troop choice now, by default.
They've been able to have "cheap" cannon fodder, more elite like soldiers, jet bikes, snipers and nasty T6 beasts as troops for many years.


Has GW started a trend of adding troop choices to codices?

CSM 4th Ed. had 6 troops by default.
CSM 6th Ed. has 2 troops and 5 unlockable troops.

As stated above, Eldar 4th Ed. had 6 troops by default and 1 unlockable.
Eldar 6th Ed. have 5 troops by default and 3 unlockable.

So no, they have not started a trend of adding troop choices to codices. They have however gained a hard-on for switching troops into other slots (mostly elites), and then giving us a way of making said unit troops again, by spending points on something different. :rolleyes:

Nurgling Chieftain
10-09-2013, 01:28
CSM 4th Ed. had 6 troops by default.
CSM 6th Ed. has 2 troops and 5 unlockable troops.CSM 3rd Ed. had 6 Troops by default and 5 more unlockable. :p

Baaltor
10-09-2013, 01:41
I think unfortunately that Kelly is just one who is a little biased when in comes to his work. Items of his passion seem to receive much more thorough attentions than those he does not. I don't think he's a bad designer, his work is passable at to say the least, but he can't seem to marshal much enthusiasm when he needs to.


Dark eldar troops I see as being the jaded nobles of commaragh, sitting on objectives in deck-chairs sipping tear-flavoured cocktails watching their elites have fun at the front line.
" I say, Gerald, that reaver just took that guardsman's head clean off, and spelled out his own name in the blood spatter"
"Goodness me, good show!"
"Bally fine show indeed, what. Wait, is that a wraith knight? How tiresome. Gerald, pass my splinter cannon would you, there's a good fellow."

Nihjil the Thornfleshed: SMASHING DAY for a shattershard, Gnerrhoho!

Hellebore
10-09-2013, 01:54
Because the eldar codex is to eldar civilisation what combining codex imperial guard, all marines, and sisters together would be to the Imperium.

Codex Eldar would be like Codex Imperium. It's the entire craftworld eldar's civilisation in a book.

I'd love Codex Shadowblade Shrine Striking Scorpions though, love having an army with its own list representing a single warrior tradition of a few hundred in a whole civilisation...


Hellebore

TimLeeson
10-09-2013, 03:10
I'm definitely jealous as a Necron fan. I want to do pure canoptek.

Baaltor
10-09-2013, 03:32
Because the eldar codex is to eldar civilisation what combining codex imperial guard, all marines, and sisters together would be to the Imperium.

Codex Eldar would be like Codex Imperium. It's the entire craftworld eldar's civilisation in a book.

I'd love Codex Shadowblade Shrine Striking Scorpions though, love having an army with its own list representing a single warrior tradition of a few hundred in a whole civilisation...


Hellebore

I'll have to disagree at least partially here. The Space marines are an entity that exists almost entirely outside of the Imperium. That fact has been verbatim published, and is supported by the degree of autonomy that they enjoy (they can say 'no' to an inquisitor, think about that), and their subsequent notability in terms of successful rebellion. The significance of that last fact is that they can succeed in an endeavour where imperial subjects on a shorter leash cannot. This of course assuming you mean that the codex is Craftworld World Eldar, not 'Eldar' as in Exodite, Harlequin, Dark Eldar, Corsairs (for those unaware, these are sort of stellar Clockwork Orange thugs that live out their equivalent of a 'rebellious youth' consisting of rape, murder, pillaging, torture, and gluttony; one step off from DE). Obviously we understand that some of these cultures interact with the list, but no more than they should without being allies.

I'm afraid I can't be certain due to a lack of great insight, so Caveat Emptor: I don't think whole armies of Aspects are deployed. I've never heard of that. It seems illogical, practically in its unfeasible to use an army consisting solely of such specialists. Fluffwise it doesn't sound very fluffy; Eldaar society is based on philosophical balance, and their warfare precipitates that belief. If you have any information contrary to my understanding I should like to see it. I don't mean that as an accusation, I would just enjoy reading that insightful work

Nurgling Chieftain
10-09-2013, 03:42
I wonder if I could make an Eldar army with minimum HQ's and the rest Troops, and make it work.

Sir Didymus
10-09-2013, 06:47
Noone has mentioned the Coteaz Henchman army for variation. Ranging from 12 pt. objective grabbers to blobs of lascannon toting jokaero, murders of death cultists, psychic choirs and even some marines and terminators just for the fun of it.

Laughingmonk
10-09-2013, 07:14
Noone has mentioned the Coteaz Henchman army for variation. Ranging from 12 pt. objective grabbers to blobs of lascannon toting jokaero, murders of death cultists, psychic choirs and even some marines and terminators just for the fun of it.

Dont forget the ultra cheap guys with storm shields and power weapons backed up by mr dude with rad grenades.

On topic, eldar have solid troops, but so do many other armies. The only armies really lacking in flexible troops options are sisters, tau, and necrons (to my knowledge). That necessarily mean they have bad troops slots, though.

TremendousZ
10-09-2013, 07:14
Noone has mentioned the Coteaz Henchman army for variation. Ranging from 12 pt. objective grabbers to blobs of lascannon toting jokaero, murders of death cultists, psychic choirs and even some marines and terminators just for the fun of it.

Great point! I think you have to chalk this one up to each army having their own specializations and special unit combos.

Or it could just be that there are so many different variants of eldar craftworlds(kind of like chaos legions) that they had to make all these units troops so that a Saim-Han(?) all jet bike army can exist with a Biel-tan guardian army and an Iyanden wraithguard force all in one book. This makes a lot more sense of the Iyanden Suuplement because, as the OP pointed out, the Eldar are bursting at the gill with troops.

sprugly
10-09-2013, 09:06
Dark eldar troops I see as being the jaded nobles of commaragh, sitting on objectives in deck-chairs sipping tear-flavoured cocktails watching their elites have fun at the front line.
" I say, Gerald, that reaver just took that guardsman's head clean off, and spelled out his own name in the blood spatter"
"Goodness me, good show!"
"Bally fine show indeed, what. Wait, is that a wraith knight? How tiresome. Gerald, pass my splinter cannon would you, there's a good fellow."

Best description of dark eldar troops ever!

Sprugly


Sent from my C6603 using Tapatalk 4

Hendarion
10-09-2013, 09:44
I'm afraid I can't be certain due to a lack of great insight, so Caveat Emptor: I don't think whole armies of Aspects are deployed. I've never heard of that. It seems illogical, practically in its unfeasible to use an army consisting solely of such specialists.Actually as long as it is possible, that is what a typical Eldar army looks like - no need to put Guardians or Wraiths in if not for the direst of needs. Iyanden has in the past fielded such armies (read the supplement) and Biel Tan still does. It isn't unfluffy at all. Unfluffy actually is that Serpents/Falcons/Prisms/Vypers/Walkers are driven by simple Guardians and that there isn't an Aspect for that aswell. Especially for Biel Tan.

Poseidal
10-09-2013, 10:05
Aspects are actually a separate 'sect' to normal Craftworld Eldar.

The Craftworld Eldar today are the descendants of tradesmen, traders and the engineers they had to run their ships. The current Aspect Warriors are members of those (mostly) visiting the Khainite shrines to learn from the Aspect Warrior ways.

Aspect Warriors were originally a separate sect; they were not traders from a craftworld, but planetary Eldar who left (presumably via webway) to live on a far off planet, led by their king. It is likely these are the Khainite Eldar who were at odds with the 'pleasure seeking' (secretly or in denial Slaaneshi) Eldar at the core worlds.

They formed their own civilisation there of warrior monks (in effect) until the betrayal of Arhra forced them to flee the dying world into the webway and intermingle among the traders of the craftworlders.

Some have integrated into the Craftworlds better than others (in Biel-Tan in particular). The preferred way of fighting for Biel-Tan is a full on assault with Aspect Warriors carried by Wave Serpents and Falcons (or heavier versions), with the non-Aspect/Transport sections as support.

You could easily have Eldarheresy 30k (or the Asuryata*), with the warring Kings of Asur as Asurmen unites the Khainite Eldar (making followers out of some of the old leaders who lean on different aspects of Khaine in interpretation), leads them into exile to the planet of Asur and sets up their warrior sect there. Then comes the betrayal of Arhra, where he kills the other Lords of Asur until Fuegan, who tenaciously fights to the end. This heralds the birth of a new hero, Karandras, who tempers the Asuryata of the Scorpions into a less bloodthirsty version.

*I believe this name was meant to evoke the Mahabharata in the type of epic story it is.

Hendarion
10-09-2013, 10:15
That is the first time I hear of such an interpretation of sub-sects and I disagree. While the Craftworlds may be built on old trade-ships, we know nothing about the old crew and each civilian Eldar might have walked the Warrior Path once (or multiple times) in his life. There's no such thing as Khainite Eldar or descendants of traders.

Poseidal
10-09-2013, 11:17
That is the first time I hear of such an interpretation of sub-sects and I disagree. While the Craftworlds may be built on old trade-ships, we know nothing about the old crew and each civilian Eldar might have walked the Warrior Path once (or multiple times) in his life. There's no such thing as Khainite Eldar or descendants of traders.

The Warrior Path didn't exist before the fall. While there were maybe some refugees, the primary identity of the craftworlds at that time were traders (and ship crew) as long range trade ships.

Asurmen led his people to a planet and began the Warrior Path there, not on a Craftworld (he may have had followers from Craftworlds later who travelled there, like Maugan Ra, but himself and his first people were planetbound).

Aspects did not spread around to Craftworlds until after the Shrine of Asur / Planet of Asur were destroyed by Arhra.

Modern Aspect Warriors now are mostly Craftworlders learning their path in the Craftworld Shines, which was after the fall. They're mostly integrated into Craftworld society, but I would say the nature of Craftworld and Warrior society was very different around 30k than it is now, for those reason.

Note that I agree that most Eldar armies would be including and consist of mainly Aspect Warriors, as they are the fighting sect part. I am just saying there is still some cultural difference and the Aspects, while part of the Path, had different origins (or maybe they were the originator of the entire Path system?).

I wonder if I could make an Eldar army with minimum HQ's and the rest Troops, and make it work.

I often run lists with one Spiritseer as HQ and everything else is troops and transports, with only a bit of backup from heavy support for AV duty. I think the HS elements could easily be dropped to put more troops, upgrades or more expensive troops in.

corps
10-09-2013, 12:14
Eldar don't reproduce with mon-keigh so no rape among their crime. Not all eldar corsair are motivated by plunder. the spirit crow from FFG is an example plunder is a tool to keep "lesser" race to take on maiden world and eldar race as a whole. they are reckless and not hesitating between option but attack. some ledar corsair ar indeed intersteing in plunder and mayhem but ultimately they still have ties to crafwolrd and folow their request. to compare them to the dark eldar is wrong in terms of motivations. it s not attack but you ask for differents opinions.

cordially

Hendarion
10-09-2013, 13:04
The Warrior Path didn't exist before the fall. While there were maybe some refugees, the primary identity of the craftworlds at that time were traders (and ship crew) as long range trade ships.

Asurmen led his people to a planet and began the Warrior Path there, not on a Craftworld (he may have had followers from Craftworlds later who travelled there, like Maugan Ra, but himself and his first people were planetbound).

Aspects did not spread around to Craftworlds until after the Shrine of Asur / Planet of Asur were destroyed by Arhra.I still disagree about most being traders. You got engineers, poets, politicians, noblemen, warriors, cooks, gardeners, whatever. The Craftworlds contained ANY Eldar that wished to flee from the Fall, not just traders. The ships they used to flee were formerly trade-ships. That doesn't mean the fleeing Eldar and crews on them were all just traders. You know, if the Earth would sink under water (like in "Waterworld"), would the only refugees only be sailors and oil-tank-crews? Of course not, they would contain a wide mix of people.
Asurmen just invented one single path - the one that mimics Khaine. Anybody was allowed to join them. That still means the Craftworlds contained all facets of people, not just traders at all. Asurmen didn't pick up ALL warrior-oriented Eldar, formed them and then sent them to the Craftworlds. Nope.

Poseidal
10-09-2013, 13:19
The reason I say they are mostly traders is because the fact they were on the trade ships meant they weren't affected by the general debasement of the civilisation. It would be traders who were in the majority of those who saw the malaise and didn't go 'dark'. Sure, they took a lot of refugees nearer the time (note they had to have cleared the Eye area way before in the incident to have survived until now), but I consider their main identity as 'traders' though obviously the mix of population is more balanced than that.

The origins of the Warrior sect all trace back to Asurmen though. They only spread to the craftworlds after he founded the warrior shrines, not before. The Warriors on the original Craftworlds would be more akin to security guards, not the Khainite cults you see this day.

Every single Aspect Warrior can trace the lineage of his shrine back to Asurmen in some way.

Hendarion
10-09-2013, 14:19
The lineage of the shrine maybe. But not the lineage of the Eldar itself. Also, if there's a ship with a crew of 100 Eldar and an amount of 10.000 refugees, you'd really call them all "traders"? I surely won't.

Poseidal
10-09-2013, 15:03
We don't know how many refugees are from or not from the ship. I generally assume that most were 'original' to the ship as when the eye blew up, a lot of them were already far away and the expansion of size happened in years afterwards; the Craftworlds at the time were still much smaller trading vessels.

TheBearminator
10-09-2013, 15:31
I'm definitely jealous as a Necron fan. I want to do pure canoptek.

Just how can they live with themselves? How can they let eldar have seven kinds of troop choices and Necrons only two? The irony is that I was gonna start a Necron army this time but thought the dark eldar vehicles would leave great opportunities for airbrushing.

Brotheroracle
10-09-2013, 15:37
Dark Eldar have 4
Warriors
Wyches
Wracks
Hellions

TheBearminator
10-09-2013, 15:51
Dark Eldar have 4
Warriors
Wyches
Wracks
Hellions

Yeah, out of which one requires you to take a heamonculus and one requires you to field an independent character, that may or may not be accepted in your meta.

Without characters
Eldar: 5
Dark eldar: 2

With characters (independent or not)
Eldar: 7,5
Dark eldar: 4

DoctorTom
10-09-2013, 17:52
Guardians are nasty at short range, but have no special weapons

Other than the heavy weapons platform they get



no options for a squad leader

Other than taking a Warlock


and cannot take small units (aka venom-spam). Storm guardians cannot disembark and assault on the same turn, and have no bonus save in combat.

Fair points here. They upped the size of the guardian defender squad back with the previous codex since in 3rd ed people would spam 5 guardian units with heavy weapons platforms. I guess they don't want the storm guardians being Falcon-spam now.

Hendarion
10-09-2013, 18:52
We don't know how many refugees are from or not from the ship. I generally assume that most were 'original' to the ship as when the eye blew up, a lot of them were already far away and the expansion of size happened in years afterwards; the Craftworlds at the time were still much smaller trading vessels.
And that's where I'd strongly disagree with you. We know the timeline of the first Craftworlds leaving with refugees on board and that when the Eye blew up, all too near got killed.

Poseidal
10-09-2013, 19:07
The whole reason they distanced themselves was because of their time away from the core worlds meant they were less affected by the decline in Eldar civilisation though, so the ones that didn't want to follow the pleasure cults would be mostly the spacefaring lot.

Nurgling Chieftain
10-09-2013, 19:19
...Is it my imagination, or is Poseidal just making stuff up willy-nilly?

Poseidal
10-09-2013, 19:38
...Is it my imagination, or is Poseidal just making stuff up willy-nilly?

WD127 or the compilation page 43, paraphrased:

Craftworlds contained hundreds of families. They grew a strong sense of independence from the rest of Eldar civilisation. Because of this independence they were mostly unaffected by the malaise of general Eldar society.

Those who remained behind grew accustomed to the degeneration of the race, so missed the warning signs the Craftworlders on the trading ships saw.

The final quote before the fall includes this:

In the final weeks leading to the Fall, the returning Craftworld crews found their worlds in ruins. They rescued those of their kind who were still sane, and fled into the deeps of space through the rapidly collapsing warp tunnel network.

To me, that suggests that the majority were from the Craftworld crews, taking the few sane Eldar with them before escaping.

Baaltor
10-09-2013, 19:47
Actually as long as it is possible, that is what a typical Eldar army looks like - no need to put Guardians or Wraiths in if not for the direst of needs. Iyanden has in the past fielded such armies (read the supplement) and Biel Tan still does. It isn't unfluffy at all. Unfluffy actually is that Serpents/Falcons/Prisms/Vypers/Walkers are driven by simple Guardians and that there isn't an Aspect for that aswell. Especially for Biel Tan.

You're probably misinterpreting me. I meant an entire army consisting of ONE type of aspect. Like an army of only banshees.

I'm pretty sure that while sailors, traders, and other similar proffesions have an abnormal representation in craftworlder blood, the majority of those that fleed the fall were citizens. It's been stated many times in fluff that Eldar society had a significant number of those who wished to leave, and they cannot all have been seamen.

I'm fascinated by the idea that aspects were once their own race, and I love how that story is paralelle to the Eldar legends. It makes me think about how much of the Eldar society has been influenced by the Aspects. I think outside of warfare, the society of the Craftworlders is their own creation, but its spirit is entirely inspired by the Aspects.

Edit: Do we have any fluff on Ahra's betrayal? I'm wondering how it might have affected Dark Eldar society, specifally the Incubi. They have a lot of characteristics of asceticists.

Nurgling Chieftain
10-09-2013, 21:49
WD127...Published when?

Karhedron
10-09-2013, 22:08
Published when?

1989. It was a good year as I recall.... :D

Nurgling Chieftain
10-09-2013, 22:23
I do believe things have been retconned a bit since then.

Poseidal
10-09-2013, 22:32
Basically everything since that point has been the same in 40k since that point. That was the turning point, in the same book (Compilation) it was where Marine Power armour was mentioned and the different marks, and the implants marines had which are identical to what we have today. The Eldar army in essence is the same as the list printed there, when they took the change away from the old mercenary and pirate Eldar lists to the Craftworld forces.