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Asher
09-09-2013, 23:29
While it is quite evident that CT can be highly situational and strongly dependend on list, units and enemies, I also quite sure that most of us at some point wanted to discern if there is the best CT.

So here is a little multiple choice pool (in case you have multiple contenders for the top spot), to see if there actually is a favourite amongst the CT.

In order to keep things simple, please disregard the special characters a CT gives access to.



Ultramarines - Combat Doctrine: This detachment can utilize each of the following combat doctrines once per game. To do so at the start of your turn you state which combat doctrine you wish to use, if any, until the start of your next turn. You can only use one combat doctrine per turn.
Tactical: Units in this detachment re-roll ones while shooting, unless they're tactical marines and they re-roll all failed to hit rolls in the shooting phase.
Assault: Units in this detachment can re-roll their charge range. Assault squads, bikes, or attack bikes instead have the fleet rule.
Devastator: Units in this detachment may re-rolls to-hit on snap shots, including overwatch shots, in addition models in this detachment's Devastator squads have the relentless unless they disembarked from a transport in their movement phase.

White Scars -
Born in the Saddle: Models in this detachment with the Bike Unit Type automatically pass Dangerous Terrain tests, and recieve a +1 to their Jink Cover Saves. In addition add 1 to their Strength when resolving their Hammer of Wrath hits.
Fight on the Move: Models in this Detachment have the Hit and Run Special Rule. Note that this does not include models in Terminator Armor, Devastator Centurions or Assault Centurions.

Imperial Fists -
Bolter Drill: Models in this detachment may re-roll all to-hit rolls of 1 made with a bolt pistol, boltgun, stormbolter, heavy bolters, or combi-weapons that are firing as boltguns. This rule does not apply to Helfire, Kraken, Vengence or Dragonfire rounds.
Siegemasters: Models in this detachment in Devastator squads and Centurion Devastator squads have the Tank Hunter special rule and add +1 when rolling on the building damage table.

Black Templars -
Accept Any Challenges, No Matter the Odds: When engaged in a challenge, Black Templar Characters reroll all failed to-hit rolls, and have the Rending Special Rule.
Crusaders: Black Templars have the Crusader and Adamantium Will Special Rules. In addition Black Templars have access to a special unit called a Crusader Squad.

Iron Hands -
The Flesh is Weak: Models in this detachment have the Feel no Pain on a 6+ Special Rule. Note that if they benefit from more than one instance of Feel no Pain they use the best version available.
Machine Empathy: All vehicles and characters in this detachment have the It Will Not Die special rule even though vehicles do not have Chapter Tactic special rules. Furthermore, Techmarines and Masters of the Forge in this detachment add +1 to their Blessing of the Omnissiah rolls.

Salamanders -
Flamecraft: Models in this detachment can re-roll their saving throws against wounds caused by flamer weapons as defined by the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook. Furthermore, flame weapons used by models in this detachment re-roll failed to-wound rolls and armor penetration rolls that don't cause a glancing or a penetrating hit.
Master Artisan: During the army selection each character in this detachment may upgrade on of his weapons, even one they have purchased as an upgrade, to have the Mastercrafted Special Rule at no additional cost.

Raven Guard -
Strike from the Shadows: Models in this detachment have the Scout Special Rule. In addition, on the first game turn, models in this detachment have the Stealth Special Rule. Note that units that include models with the Bulky or Very Bulky Special Rules do not benefit from either rule.
Wings of Deliverance: Jump Infantry Models in this detachment may use their Jump Packs in both the movement and assault phases of the same turn. Futhermore, they must re-roll all failed to-wound rolls caused by their Hammer of Wrath hits.

Archon of Death
09-09-2013, 23:33
I like IH, it does exactly what I want it to and makes my army stronger

Inquisitor Shego
09-09-2013, 23:36
Good question. No idea. Raven Guard are damned good, and so are Ultramarines. I wouldn't write off Iron Hands surviving in some awkward manner like always, and meep, White Scars on bikes are scary. I'm going to have to go for my boys though, the Raven Guard, if only because there's going to be a rhino rush up in yo grill, fo shizzle cometh turn 1.

MagicHat
09-09-2013, 23:53
I'm going to have to go for my boys though, the Raven Guard, if only because there's going to be a rhino rush up in yo grill, fo shizzle cometh turn 1.

Khan can do the same Rhino Rush, but better since you will have hit and run. Very important when you are that close to the enemy.
In fact, WS is my vote.
Hit and run is damned powerful, and bikes are one of the best (THE best?) troops you have available. Anything that boosts bike is thus pretty awesome.

Baaltor
10-09-2013, 00:01
I'm assuming best means strongest. The design for them is pretty good from my view, and they're all interesting and fluffy. That's to say I don't think there's a distinctive spread in terms of quality, especially in light of GW's typical reputation for horrifying imbalance.

That said I think there are two bests; Ultramarines, and Imperial fists. One is THE best: Ultramarines. I don't think it's fair to elevate it above the the sons of Dorn, because I see its superiourity is costed in that it looks magnitudes harder to effectively use than the other abilities. In both list and play the best use of the tactics are going to be difficult to get the best of. The Imperial Fists power is far less mutable, but the provided benefits are less pervasive, lack subtlety, and less effective. The last point is contrasted with the fact that the abilities are gamelong, it's a give and take, but when two options are controlled vs. uncontrolled the controlled is usually best.

Minsc
10-09-2013, 00:07
I'd say all the CT's are "the best" in the right list, but it also depends on your playstyle.

If I had to pick one though, I'd say Iron Hands, just because it's 100% passive (and so requires very little thought from the player) and very hard to negate.

Laughingmonk
10-09-2013, 03:42
Ultramarines. The UM ones can help you guarantee one successful shooting, movement, and assault phase per game. This can be active, like using a pod list with lots of tactical marines frontloaded into pods or maximum alpha-strike. Or, it can have a more passive role, where he player saves them to ensure a riskier move by popping the appropriate doctrine.

In my experience, most games are decided within the first 3 turns. UM CT allow you to drastically buff portions of your army at critical times to ensure things go off when you need them. Plus, UM CT unlocks a couple of decent characters, the foremost being tigurius, who is insane for his points.

I honestly think iron hands have one of the weaker ones. Most SM vehicles are rather shallow and die quickly. If they are not, like LR, the enemy usually targets them with something that destroys them in one shot, like railguns, melta, or lance weapons. Most SM characters will also be targeted with things that will wipe them out quickly. The issue is there really isn't a game changer. Marines aren't exactly known for being super resilient and a 6+ FNP and the occasional IWND doesn't change the dynamic of the vast majority of their units: They will still pretty much die and win against the usual stuff.


I'd say all the CT's are "the best" in the right list, but it also depends on your playstyle.

If I had to pick one though, I'd say Iron Hands, just because it's 100% passive (and so requires very little thought from the player) and very hard to negate.

I disagree. A lot of things that people lob on marines they don't get a FnP save from. Power fists, ordnance, lascannons, death rays, etc all straight up kill marines.

Other CT are ok, but lock you into units. UM can always make their doctrines work regardless of what units are on the table.

Kloud13
10-09-2013, 04:00
The best thing in a Marine army, is the Marine. Imperial Fist CT make the Marine better all the time. And that alone makes the IF CT top Trait. The Tank Hunters is just icing on the cake.

Losing Command
10-09-2013, 04:33
There should be a "whichever you like" option, to me there's not a single CT that stands out as 'The Best'
Looking at the poll result, that might actually be the case ;)

ftayl5
10-09-2013, 04:40
The best thing in a Marine army, is the Marine. Imperial Fist CT make the Marine better all the time. And that alone makes the IF CT top Trait. The Tank Hunters is just icing on the cake.

I pretty much agree with this. The bolter is a standard weapon throughout the army and Imperial fists let you get almost TL (hitting on a 3, re-rolling 1's means only 2's are a permanent miss) on all of them.
Tank hunters for devastators is great too.

I also think the Salamander effect of MC weapons for all sarges and IC's is a great bonus but re-rolling wounds on flamers is pretty situational. It makes combi-flamers worthwhile.
White Scars have a great tactic too, army wide hit and run is fantastic. Their bikes are very survivable and with grav guns very deadly. 30" threat range for 6 AP2 grav shots. Goodbye deepstriking terminators.

These 3 are the best IMO, the others are all different shades of good but nothing really stands out as awesome.

Lightning Strike!
10-09-2013, 06:03
There isn't really an overall strongest, as their power varies between list types.

That said, Iron Hands and Ultramarines are both really solid overall. They're clear leaders to me.

Laughingmonk
10-09-2013, 06:51
There isn't really an overall strongest, as their power varies between list types.

That said, Iron Hands and Ultramarines are both really solid overall. They're clear leaders to me.

I really really like the BT rules. Accept Any Challenge gives them the possibility of insane beat diwn characters, and Adamantium will gives them protection against psykers. Crusader is also pretty nifty.

My favorite perk though is the crusader squad, giving them the ability to take exceedingly efficient troops choices over their other brethren.

Asher
10-09-2013, 07:14
I disagree. A lot of things that people lob on marines they don't get a FnP save from. Power fists, ordnance, lascannons, death rays, etc all straight up kill marines.

I don't get this line of argumentation; it's like saying the IF CT sucks because the the important targets (riptide, wraithknight, etc) can't be reliably hurt by bolters. Massed small arms fire hurts marines just as much.

micf2302
10-09-2013, 08:15
Unfortunately for you, I can't count Khan out. He singlehandedly makes the WS the best by far. I don't even understand why you would play Raven Guard... It's sad really...

Borgomos
10-09-2013, 08:23
Maybe because they don't like bikes....or maybe they think Shrike is a cool dude....or they like Corax as a Primach.

duffybear1988
10-09-2013, 08:33
I can never remember this - do assault marines have the bulky rule? If so I would rate Ravenguard as the weakest. I would argue that the rest are all about equal. Black Templars are massively underrated - those 20 man bolter squads are going to shoot the pants out of most things. Not to mention their ability to MSU with lots of special/heavy weapons, boost to psychic protection, more chance of getting into combat/sweeping etc. Oh and their characters are cool in combat.

Their only downside are their characters - Hellbrecht is ok, the Emp Champ is a weaker captain, and Grimaldus is bearable (but his servitors are terrible... GW really messed up there).

Laughingmonk
10-09-2013, 08:35
I don't get this line of argumentation; it's like saying the IF CT sucks because the the important targets (riptide, wraithknight, etc) can't be reliably hurt by bolters. Massed small arms fire hurts marines just as much.

I never said that the IF CT sucked. But you just demonstrated the limitations of using it: those important targets need to be dealt with in a timely and effective manner. The usual methods of dealing with those targets are generally units and platforms other than bolt-weapon wielding marines.

The exception are the tank hunting devastators and centurions, which have a pretty neat advantage. But again, they have to be equipped and used in very specific ways to benefit from the buff.


Likewise, whereas the IH CT are useful against small arms fire and repairing damaged vehicles and characters, I dont see it being a huge game changer.


UM CT have numerous applications that can be useful. For instance, lets take their devastator squad. One turn of relentless may not seem that big of a deal. However, consider the following: having a dev squad fail a moral check and leave a prime firing position is annoying. Popping dev gets them back into position, re formed, and shooting in the same turn. A unit deep strikes too close for your dev squad for comfort? Pop dev and fire all of your heavy weapons while rapid firing bolters while advancing (or moving out of charge range, and perhaps even charge them.

This is in addition to the entire army re rolling snap and overwatch for the entire game turn.

My point is that while the other doctrines are useful, the UM provides some excellent opportunities to capitalize on SM flexibility and force projection that other CT cannot.

There is one more very important thing regarding UM CT that has to be mentioned.

UM have access to tigurius, who brings very, very powerful support abilities to the army. Not only is he the only access to divination organic to the SM army, he also is one of the best casters for it in the entire game. In addition to allowing you to re roll reserve rolls. He is good, and he is even more awesome in the context of the UM chapter tactics.

Borgomos
10-09-2013, 08:40
I feel like Iron Hands CT would be quite solid if they had access to ANY kind of special character to boost their Chapter theme.

Camman1984
10-09-2013, 08:58
If khan didnt essentially give white scars the RG CT (scout and outflank) i would prefer RG as its the type of army i want to field. However him and a character added to the white scars own CT makes white scars just plain better imho.

Shame really, desperatrley trying to convince myself to play my army using RG tactics but as i prefer bikes and rhinos anyway, my only reason seems to be that i already painted them green as raptors.

Inquisitor Shego
10-09-2013, 13:27
I thought the question was which is the best chapter tactics, not the best HQ in supplement with your tactics :p If you're taking Khan, clearly it's because you have RG envy... ahem .

No seriously, Khan is pretty damn sweet and White Scars are awesome now (if only someone would buy their limited edition codex). I don't get myself 100% sold on bikes though, because I play in a lot of ruined terrain, and if we see objectives going down in a heavy bike army, those objectives tend to be up 3rd floor buildings. Bikes tend to circle the ground whilst giving the middle finger to those in higher perches. Though bikes are clearly one of the best troops in the game, they're not without problems. My Raven Guard assault marines are going to be hopping around like Batman however :D

Ironbone
10-09-2013, 15:14
Well, all CT are nice, and no one is useless :p. My personal vote goes to IF, but i cant deny, that other Ct are also preety sweet. Ultramarines have most powerful and versitale, but its one use only, so army will benefit from Ct only for about half of the game. And massed bike armies of WS will be brutal against some armies. Good job GW, you made already stupid jinx even more stupid :shifty:.

kilokalex
10-09-2013, 16:35
Fnp 6+ on a toughness 4 model is worthless. Plague marines are toughness 5 fnp 5+ can be negated by mass Bolter fire and on toughness 4 strength 8 is easy to find. Relentless devastator squads is good but not that great helps plasma cannons though. All that close combat stuff is worthless in 6th edition. Your army will melt before it gets there. Bolter drill is highly effective though.

Archon of Death
10-09-2013, 17:41
To those hating on IH: It's a free bonus to survivability, giving a 6++ save to things that don't ID. I'm sorry but while people run S8 weapons and such, it at least HELPS with weapons that are AP3, and helps more with weapons with AP4 or worse. In addition, the vehicles get an upgrade and TM/MotF both get a BotO roll of 4+/3+ WITHOUT SERVITORS.

Don't look at flipping Plague Marines and compare them, that's an entirely different army, look at it as a bonus to relative survivability for the SM. While other tactics help you kill, at least IH helps you kill LONGER, knocking the effective game turns from 3 to 4 for your army, with the right selections you can swamp the field and eliminate your opponent early, plus have a fourth turn to do so.

A.T.
10-09-2013, 17:55
Fnp 6+ on a toughness 4 model is worthlessIt's a 6+ save against bale drakes (and plasma guns, grav guns, power weapons, bladestorm, etc)
In terms of bolter fire, for every 100 normal marines killed you'd have around 17 IH survivors. Not going to set the world on fire but it's a free stackable save that you'll get most of the time.

de Selby
10-09-2013, 18:30
I'll answer this slightly differently to others; the UM tactic is the best because it gives me decisions to make 'in game' rather than just optimising the models I buy to take advantage of the chapter tactic. I'd much rather have a chapter tactic that rewards me for making the right choices and provides little benefit if I screw up; it's more interesting that way.
For the first time in my life I kind of want to play Ultramarines.

Of course, it might also be the most powerful overall but I'd wait and see all the lists that can be made with chapter tactics synergy in mind before deciding that.

Minsc
10-09-2013, 20:43
Fnp 6+ on a toughness 4 model is worthless.

Good thing they don't pay a single point for getting 6+ FnP and IWnD on their entire army then.

I can't take you seriously though: essentially negating 16,7% of the wounds suffered on your marines by S1-S8 attacks is hardly "worthless".

Ssilmath
10-09-2013, 21:23
It really does come down to playstyle, but I went with Ultramarines and Imperial Fists as being "best." Ultramarines give you choice, and their abilities are strong enough to turn a game without being overpowering. Imperial Fists really benefit an infantry heavy list and really play up the viability of the humble Bolter, changing it from a decent anti infantry gun into a scary anti infantry gun. The reroll also gives a slight boost to Overwatch and shooting at fliers, which can be pretty handy.

OuroborosTriumphant
10-09-2013, 21:27
Good thing they don't pay a single point for getting 6+ FnP and IWnD on their entire army then.

I can't take you seriously though: essentially negating 16,7% of the wounds suffered on your marines by S1-S8 attacks is hardly "worthless".

S1-S7. Don't get me wrong, it's still good, but S8 negates it.

Haravikk
10-09-2013, 21:57
I actually think they're pretty well balanced. Iron Hands doesn't seem as weak to me as other have made out; Feel No Pain (6+) will help a bit against spam shooting, but It Will Not Die on characters and vehicles plus the improved repair chance could be a pretty big deal in a properly built list, i.e - plenty of tanks, maybe a Tech Marine or two on bikes with the rest of the force focused mainly on scoring. It Will Not Die on a Storm Talon or Storm Raven could be brutal.

White Scars and Khan have possibly the best combination of bonuses as having bike troops speeding around ignoring all cover and half the army flying out of reserves with Hit & Run is going to be a hard one compete against. That said, Raven Guard with Shrike are great too as first-turn Stealth and extra vicious jump infantry are pretty appealing, maybe not as much as the White Scars bikes, but Hit & Run is hard to value when you have And They Shall Know No Fear anyway.

The Ultramarines one has a great set of bonuses, especially if you build your list to exploit all of them.


I'm actually really surprised by just how good all of the Chapter Tactics are; they really do encourage you to play to their strengths by building a thematically accurate army, and they're all good options. I actually like the Salamanders one, though it's going to suck ass if you roll up against another Salamanders army.


Also, the lack of love for Black Templars? People need to remember they get their own unique squad; 20 man Boltgun lines is nothing to sniff at.

Ironbone
10-09-2013, 22:00
it's still good, but S8 negates it.
Tell that to bikes :p. 6+ extra save is nothing awesome, but its sheer utility is good reason to take it.


Plague marines are toughness 5 fnp 5+ can be negated by mass Bolter fire
Easy to say, but on battlefield, condition says someting totaly diffrent. On average, 20 bolter shots are needed to kill one plague marine. Even full DA tac squad in range of dakka banner ( 40 shots !), will take down about 2 Plagues. Efect hardly even woth effort of dice rolling. Pmarines are killed by stuff like plazma, melta, or tank guns, small arms fire have very little effect on them.

Pendragon
11-09-2013, 00:16
While the Black Templar CT seem a little "meh" compared to the others, the key is the crusader squads, which are basically better, more flexible tactical squads. 20 man hordes or the return of the 5-man las/plas squads makes them extremely versatile.

Still I'm hard pressed to pick one. UM is probably the potentially most powerful in the right hands, but IF and IH are probably the easiest to get most bang for your buck from.

Bonzai
11-09-2013, 00:16
I voted White Scars, as they are probably the best out of the box. Raven Guard seems potent though with some work. I play Salamanders. I'd be happier with them if the rule effected ALL flamers and not just on models with chapter tactics.

Voss
11-09-2013, 00:20
Depends entirely what you want to do and how you build your army. Several are extremely lessened if you don't build for them, but extremely good if you do.


So I vote 'your basic premise is flawed.'

SniperDan84
11-09-2013, 01:55
While the Black Templar CT seem a little "meh" compared to the others, the key is the crusader squads, which are basically better, more flexible tactical squads. 20 man hordes or the return of the 5-man las/plas squads makes them extremely versatile.

Still I'm hard pressed to pick one. UM is probably the potentially most powerful in the right hands, but IF and IH are probably the easiest to get most bang for your buck from.

I'd argue that they are meh. Crusader on average gives them an additional 1" on the run move (3.5" average run versus ~4.5" average run with crusader). Does this really benefits a CC army that much? I have to imagine this does almost nothing for a shooting army. On a side note 5 man las/plas shouldn't be in a Black Templars army, it's WAAC. The characters benefit is nice, definitely not going to argue with that, though Templars (in prior edition) didn't believe in characters leading squads, so that means really just HQs would be benefiting from this (assuming you want to run a more themed list). To me, that's meh. You can definitely get some benefit, but I don't think it helps the army's supposed theme nearly as much as any of the others.

Jind_Singh
11-09-2013, 02:56
There is no clear winner as it's going to depend on:

1) The player and how he plays the said army
2) What the army is composed of

As any player can take a play style and augment it with CT - if, for e.g., someone has a lot of success using Assault Marines they can't but love RG - where if your into shooting bolters and Devs then why not IF?

For all round versatility it has to be the Ultramarines as you have access to 3 very important tactics - couple this with some of the special characters (looking at you Marneous!), they will do dreadful things to their opponents

Inquisitor Shego
11-09-2013, 03:02
Chaos Space Marine + Mark of Tzeentch (6+ Invulnerable) = 1 point more than an Iron Hands Marine with ATSKNF & 6+ Feel no Pain, so though I'm not playing Iron Hands, I think their ability is damned sweet.

Though invulnerables protect against double strength over toughness, feel no pain works atop your regular armour save. :D

Bamfpanda
11-09-2013, 03:33
Ultramarines seem the best overall to me however the others could be the best depending on your list. Either you specialize or generalize, either could be the best depending on what your facing and the circumstances of the game.

zero88
11-09-2013, 03:38
I think UM are probably the best, simply because they are effective at everything. Imperial Fists are a close tie, due to how many bolt weapons you have and how nasty their Dev squads are.

Raven Guard got seriously shafted though. No scout or first turn stealth for bikes and assault marines is complete garbage IMO. That rule should be re-written to just exclude terminators and centurions. What you end up with is just a bunch of rhino rushes. Not to mention how utterly overpriced Shrike is. Salamanders also got a nerf now that Dreadnoughts and vehicles don't benefit from the twin-linking/mastercrafting provided by the Chapter Tactics and Vulkan.

zendral
11-09-2013, 04:32
It's hard to pass up a scouting army with bikes having an amazing cover save while turbo-boosting, not to mention hit and run....combat and shooting on your terms. To me at least, iron hands are about the same if not slightly worse. IWND is on EVERY vehicle and character. Chaos only has a couple beast machines that can do that while necrons can't at all *you think they would with living metal*. I've seen some people wave their hand at the 6+ FnP but look at it on a strategic level. Things like bale drakes and AP1-3 mass shooting that usually takes out whole squads at a time may see one or two survivors in an Iron Hands army. That's a scoring unit that is still alive (in tac squads) that the enemy couldn't finish off. 1 or 2 survivors that made a dash for the objective or held firm on the one they were already on.

Endobai
11-09-2013, 08:12
Went with Ultramarines. it is definetely most flexible and gives tools to plan a battle - very suitable for a model codex chapter.

Plus it opens an entire multitude of successor chapter which suddenly have their "own" rules now.

Laughingmonk
11-09-2013, 09:58
It's hard to pass up a scouting army with bikes having an amazing cover save while turbo-boosting, not to mention hit and run....combat and shooting on your terms. To me at least, iron hands are about the same if not slightly worse. IWND is on EVERY vehicle and character. Chaos only has a couple beast machines that can do that while necrons can't at all *you think they would with living metal*. I've seen some people wave their hand at the 6+ FnP but look at it on a strategic level. Things like bale drakes and AP1-3 mass shooting that usually takes out whole squads at a time may see one or two survivors in an Iron Hands army. That's a scoring unit that is still alive (in tac squads) that the enemy couldn't finish off. 1 or 2 survivors that made a dash for the objective or held firm on the one they were already on.

My one beef with the IH CT is that they offer zero offensive or mobility buffs to an army that is inherently offensive and mobile. Marines that are marginally better at sticking around is a moot point against armies that are actually geared for attrition, like guard or tyrannies. The FnP could even backfire, where a squad that would normally be wiped out on the enemies turn (allowing you to shoot at them on yours) may survive, potentially locking them in combat on your turn, and losing you a turn of shooting at that unit, with an army that heavily relies on shooting to get a lot of the work done.

The other issue is that most players generally over-allocate resources to remove units off the table. For 6+ FnP to truly be useful, the incoming firepower has to be in a narrow margin: It has to be more than what a unit would normally survive, but less than what IH CT can add to the squads defensibility. Tau ( and several other armies like guard or eldar) for example have no issue with focus firing units off the board, regardless of defense. All the other CT have some sort of offensive or mobility buff to aid in causing additional casualties or preventing select units from being shot at all.

In this way I believe IH CT are actually very marginal strategically, as there seem to be too many hoops to jump through to really make use of them in a measurable way. It's like what Sun Tzu said "those who try to defend everything defend nothing (or something to that effect)." The IH CT seem to embody this shortcoming, as while other CT allow you to mitigate risk in key areas, IH CT don't.

That being said, iron hands abilities in small games ( sub 1000) I could see doing some annoying things for your opponent. I suppose time will tell.

Pendragon
11-09-2013, 10:30
I'd argue that they are meh. Crusader on average gives them an additional 1" on the run move (3.5" average run versus ~4.5" average run with crusader). Does this really benefits a CC army that much? I have to imagine this does almost nothing for a shooting army. On a side note 5 man las/plas shouldn't be in a Black Templars army, it's WAAC. The characters benefit is nice, definitely not going to argue with that, though Templars (in prior edition) didn't believe in characters leading squads, so that means really just HQs would be benefiting from this (assuming you want to run a more themed list). To me, that's meh. You can definitely get some benefit, but I don't think it helps the army's supposed theme nearly as much as any of the others.

So your argument is as follows:
1) When measuring potential power of a unit, you shouldn't use the most powerful possible configurations of said unit.
2) Black Templars are bad if you use self-imposed limitations from previous editions with current rules without getting the benefits of the same previous editions.

The fluff on squad leaders has changed (for the better), get used to it. They're now back to closer where they started (or at least when I started playing them).

daveNYC
11-09-2013, 10:47
The FnP could even backfire, where a squad that would normally be wiped out on the enemies turn (allowing you to shoot at them on yours) may survive, potentially locking them in combat on your turn, and losing you a turn of shooting at that unit, with an army that heavily relies on shooting to get a lot of the work done.

I'd argue that that's more an issue with the core rules than with the chapter tactics themselves. When you're making the argument that you want your unit to die, something is pretty borked somewhere. Not that the FNP couldn't cause exactly those issues.

Corvus Corone
11-09-2013, 12:28
I wonder if people aren't overvaluing the IH CT somewhat.

FNP 6+ is good, but in a game may only save three or four wounds.

IWND is good, but over the course of a game again I wonder how many hullpoints and wounds will be regained (and of those regained, which will actually make a difference to the game)? Some, certainly, but enough to outweigh the benefits provided by another chapter?

Possibly the best (IMO) aspect of the IH CT is the one that's most reliable - the ability of a techmarine with harness to repair on a 3+ (or 2+ with a servitor). I think that lists built around a solid mechanised with two or more techmarines using this where possible will truly feel the benefit of Ferrus Mannus' legacy.

But is that better than army-wide hit and run, plus the other WS bonuses? Or the flexibility in offensive output of the UM? I'm not sold. The other chapter tactics change things, they make differences, allow tactics and moves and lists that would not be possible or good without them - the IH CT just makes marines and their vehicles have a small increase in durability.

I think that, in time, the IH CT will be shown to be inferior in competitive play to the others. Such is my opinion.

SniperDan84
11-09-2013, 13:01
So your argument is as follows:
1) When measuring potential power of a unit, you shouldn't use the most powerful possible configurations of said unit.
2) Black Templars are bad if you use self-imposed limitations from previous editions with current rules without getting the benefits of the same previous editions.

The fluff on squad leaders has changed (for the better), get used to it. They're now back to closer where they started (or at least when I started playing them).

I wasn't trying to argue the power of the unit, I was arguing the benefit of chapter tactics for BT. I'm not sure if you disagree or agree with my analysis of crusader.

Although I'm not a fan of the new character rules for the army, I agree that this is the most beneficial for the army. I'd argue that the rending is mostly meh, as anyone challenging from the army is likely to have a power weapon, so it's only helping AP3 weapons against 2+ armour. The reroll is solid and is definitely the best aspect of the chapter tactics, but is very limited in comparison to the others. In addition, it isn't helping a large part of the army like a lot of the others.

I briefly will talk to your points:
1) If an army is themed as a close combat army, and you play them as shooty only because that's the most powerful build what would you call that? If the (rumored) white scars supplement changes nothing about the fluff but gives them the ability to field dreadnoughts in every force org category at half cost, wouldn't you roll your eyes every time you saw a white scar army full of dreadnoughts despite the fact they hate them?
2) I never said they were bad, I said the tactic were underwhelming based on the theme. Even if you follow the new codex and put characters in all the squads, I'd still say it's the weakest of the chapter tactics.

benogham
11-09-2013, 13:06
I voted IF for the sake of the holy bolter (and pistols and heavy). Those prized relics in their hand may at last do the wonders their reputation speaks about. 20% of their shoots will find their mark in overwatch and against flyers (against 16,6% for other marines), and 78% of the normal shots too (against 67% for other marines). Something to remember. A great deal ? I think it is.

Mandragola
11-09-2013, 13:10
Rather than looking at the tactics in isolation you do have to look at the units and armies you will build.

A squad of 4 bikes and an attack bike, with a multi-melta, 2 grav guns and a combi-grav, costs around the same as a tactical squad but has dramatically greater damage output and threat range. It's probably a bit less tough but you get a unit that riptides will fear, which is what you need right now.

Likewise black Templars get a better tactical squad thanks to the ability to spam MSU las/plas. Their CT is weak but their troops are good, so they can't be discounted.

I don't like the ultramarine one because it works with bad units and barely improves them. Assault marines are weak and bolters don't do anything to the hard targets found dominating the current "MC Hammer" meta. A turn of devastators being relentless is nice but ultimately this, and many other CTs encourage you to field infantry in a meta dominated by MCs and vehicles.

Camman1984
11-09-2013, 13:36
Gotta hand it to GW on this one, the fact that we cant decide which is best and there isnt a goto WAAC option means they must have balanced then quite nicely.

Lantern
11-09-2013, 13:40
I don't like the ultramarine one because it works with bad units and barely improves them. Assault marines are weak and bolters don't do anything to the hard targets found dominating the current "MC Hammer" meta. A turn of devastators being relentless is nice but ultimately this, and many other CTs encourage you to field infantry in a meta dominated by MCs and vehicles.

That (to me) is reason enough to field infantry. If everyone else is gearing up for monstrous creatures and vehicles, surely they will be poorly equipped for dealing with infantry. Yes, a Lascannon can pick off a space marine very easily, but if your opponents army is filled with these high strength, one shot weapons, they can only do so much to a numerically superior force. Plus, you should be forcing your opponent to react to you - not the reverse.

The new codex, more than ever before, really pushes you to use the strategies and techniques YOU enjoy. Want to hit hard and fast? Go bike heavy. Want to to dig in your heels and let the enemy wear themselves down? We have at least three ways to do that. Want the heart ripped out of the enemy? Drop Pods and storm ravens. The sad thing is, we've always been able to do this, but the new chapter tactics execution has really brought it to the fore. I'm almost jealous of the home grown chapters that give the user the flexibility to try it all out, but then I look at piece of Ultramarines art and I simply think - goddamn!

Polaria
11-09-2013, 14:14
I think UM win hands down. They have the only chapter tactic that benefits almost every unit in any type of army list.

In most cases the CT:s look pretty good but at least in Raven Guards case the execution fails hands down. Scout and Stealth for non-bulky infantry looks good on paper but actually ends up to be a bit silly: The fluff says Raven Guard focuses on using Scouts, Drop Pods, Stormravens and Assault Squads, but the rules say that they don't benefit anything from using Scouts, Drop Pods and Stormravens and instead gain a lot when spamming Tactical Squads in Rhinos or Razorbacks...

Pendragon
11-09-2013, 15:08
I wasn't trying to argue the power of the unit, I was arguing the benefit of chapter tactics for BT. I'm not sure if you disagree or agree with my analysis of crusader.

Although I'm not a fan of the new character rules for the army, I agree that this is the most beneficial for the army. I'd argue that the rending is mostly meh, as anyone challenging from the army is likely to have a power weapon, so it's only helping AP3 weapons against 2+ armour. The reroll is solid and is definitely the best aspect of the chapter tactics, but is very limited in comparison to the others. In addition, it isn't helping a large part of the army like a lot of the others.

A part of their chapter tactics are getting access to the crusader squad (and losing librarians). So, therefore they get less special rules. Looking only to their special rules, yes, they do get less than other chapters. My point was that if you only looked at what special rules they got, and didn't factor in the option to get crusader squads, you weren't taking all their advantages into account.


I briefly will talk to your points:
1) If an army is themed as a close combat army, and you play them as shooty only because that's the most powerful build what would you call that? If the (rumored) white scars supplement changes nothing about the fluff but gives them the ability to field dreadnoughts in every force org category at half cost, wouldn't you roll your eyes every time you saw a white scar army full of dreadnoughts despite the fact they hate them?
2) I never said they were bad, I said the tactic were underwhelming based on the theme. Even if you follow the new codex and put characters in all the squads, I'd still say it's the weakest of the chapter tactics.

You are missing my point. It doesn't matter if its un-themed or WAAC, because we are discussing which set rules is more powerful. While I do balk at the narrow-mindedness on display when people think templars should be all about, and only about, huge crusader squads with pistols, I would at least crook an eyebrow if someone rolled out 6 las/plas squads as their troop contingent.

Mandragola
11-09-2013, 16:35
It seems to me that BT characters should be equipped with power mauls to benefit from rending and force lots of saves.

I'm still wary of CTs that make you field lots of infantry. It's simply wrong to claim that people don't have the firepower to handle it. Baledrakes will massacre then of course. You can also expect to lose handfuls of guys each turn from wave serpents or blast-heavy armies. All the while, your bolters will do next to nothing in response.

Reinholt
11-09-2013, 16:39
Obviously none of this is fully tested so far, but my thoughts:

1 - White Scars are, unfortunately, pretty much strictly better than the Raven Guard. Hit & Run is more beneficial than double use jump packs, even for jump pack troops. The bike upgrade is amazing, as bikes are a strong troop choice. First turn stealth is often redundant with night fight. I think this is a clear case where one is better than the other.

2 - Black Templars cannot be evaluated from the traits alone. You have to consider the CT as reading "you get these traits, you lose tactical squads, scout squads, and librarians, but you gain crusader squads". Taking in the full impact of this, they should be very good for the same reason the space wolves are very good: super versatile basic troop squads. You can do a lot of things with the BT Crusader squad you cannot do with other units. I think people who look at this without considering the power of the troops slot for Templars are making a mistake (just like evaluating WS without considering you can make your bikes troops would be a mistake).

3 - The IH power could be very, very good, but I think on average, it will not be, because people will build the wrong lists. They will either over-allocate to infantry for the 6+ FNP (it's not that impressive), or they will take the biggest vehicles possible, overspending on them and not having enough hull points. The reality is that IWND is most effective when there is a lot of it, and a lot of it at armor values that make it plausible to use it. In short, a good IH army will field the most excess hull points (HP above one) at AV12+; the fastest path to this is with medium armor. I think things like the six dreadnought army or the triple dread / triple pred army, or IWND Storm Ravens are likely to be the best builds here, and done properly, they are going to be painful to deal with. Also, IWND captains and chapter masters on bikes.

4 - IF > UM, for me, but it's very close. Yes, the UM trait is more flexible and allows you to use multiple kinds of troops, but the IF trait is always on and tank hunters is actually really freaking good. I think the ubiquity of bolters in marine armies paired with tank hunters is going to make IF solid, but neither of these strike me as spectacular. However, they strike me as always useful.

5 - Salamanders. This one requires a bit more thought. On the surface, I am going to simply ignore the re-rolls against flame weapons, because you don't see a lot of them and it's just not that good. On the other hand, re-rolling your own flame weapons suddenly means that Salamanders can drop the pain on hordes far better than most other marines, as multiple flamers are going to clear out orks, guard, tyranids, etc. in absolutely horrific fashion. This limits your anti-tank potential, however, which leads me to point number two: the Salamanders are, like the IH, very build-determined. A player who plays the min/max game to put his anti-tank in squads without flame and vice-versa is probably going to get the maximum benefit here. Similarly, if you also take Vulkan, you are getting twin-linked melta everywhere, which is also brutally good. Maybe overlooked here is the master-crafting of weapons. This makes plasma weapons far more reliable for characters, and it also makes characters significantly more dangerous in combat, depending on what is master-crafted. Given that you almost always miss with at least a single attack, this is very similar to all Salamander characters having an extra attack. This is a non-trivial advantage that many people will fail to consider.

So which one is best?

Tier 1: White Scars (always good, sometimes great) and Black Templars (seriously, the crusader squad is a huge advantage).

Tier 2: Iron Hands and Salamanders, assuming they are built with a genuine understanding of how to maximize the value of the rules. If they are just built as basic marines that happen to have some extras, I rate them in tier 4.

Tier 3: Imperial Fists and Ultramarines. Always solid, never great.

Tier 4: Raven Guard (sorry)

A.T.
11-09-2013, 16:48
Black Templars (seriously, the crusader squad is a huge advantage)From what i've seen the templars advantage is entirely proportional to how many 5 man las/plas squads you take and how much you miss having prescience or the better non-templar named characters.
6 squads of las/plas and allied scoring units perhaps.

MagicHat
11-09-2013, 17:10
Reinholt, there is nothing that stops BT from taking Tacticals and Scouts, only librarians.


From what i've seen the templars advantage is entirely proportional to how many 5 man las/plas squads you take and how much you miss having prescience or the better non-templar named characters.
6 squads of las/plas and allied scoring units perhaps.

Only Tigurius have access to divination, the rest must ally to gain it.

daveNYC
11-09-2013, 17:38
Reinholt, there is nothing that stops BT from taking Tacticals and Scouts, only librarians.



Only Tigurius have access to divination, the rest must ally to gain it.

One could almost say that UM tactics are the most valuable because they mean that you can take Tigurius. Not exactly what the OP was asking though.

Reinholt
11-09-2013, 18:46
Reinholt, there is nothing that stops BT from taking Tacticals and Scouts, only librarians.



Only Tigurius have access to divination, the rest must ally to gain it.

Space Wolves can take Blood Claws in theory, but still...

My point is mainly that Crusader squads are a huge advantage.

MagicHat
11-09-2013, 19:37
Space Wolves can take Blood Claws in theory, but still...

My point is mainly that Crusader squads are a huge advantage.

I actually considered adding "Though I don't know why you would".


One could almost say that UM tactics are the most valuable because they mean that you can take Tigurius. Not exactly what the OP was asking though.

True enough, but you could take him in an allied detachment.

insectum7
11-09-2013, 21:44
One could almost say that UM tactics are the most valuable because they mean that you can take Tigurius. Not exactly what the OP was asking though.

Almost :). UM is most valuable because you get to take Calgar, who pushes the chapter tactics even farther, and grants total discipline from your troops AND Combat Tactics.

Two turns of twin linked tactical squads and the ability to fall back at will is gnarly if you spend the points for him.

Haravikk
11-09-2013, 23:17
I'd argue that they are meh. Crusader on average gives them an additional 1" on the run move (3.5" average run versus ~4.5" average run with crusader). Does this really benefits a CC army that much?
I think the main problem with Black Templars is that people have it in their head that they're a close combat army, but I never really saw them like that. The Black Templars chapter tactics gives you lots of little bonuses, but unlike the others it doesn't really encourage any particular style of play; while Crusader is useful for combat troops, it can be useful for shooting troops that need to reposition quickly, and is handy for running down an enemy. Adamantium Will makes you a bit less likely to suffer from damaging or detrimental psychic powers. Characters being more likely to win challenges might help you to drop enemy characters if you need to.

But the real bonus are the crusader squads, and these I suppose are the main thing the chapter tactics encourage you to take as they are great units. I mean, who cares if you don't re-roll 1's to hit with shooting if you can simply take more of it than any other marine army, and have it backed by more wounds and more close combat attacks into the bargain? Or you can equip them for combat and dish out a heap of attacks; mass Strength 4 is nothing to scoff at even if you won't be ignoring many saves.

Their characters are also pretty good; grimaldus' Zealot bubble is great for combat oriented forces, but it's also ideal for ensuring units hold their ground on objectives to the very last model, and dish out a bit of extra hurt in the process. Helbrecht's ability to give the entire army Furious Charge and Fleet for a turn is one hell of an ability; in a combat oriented force that could be a heap of fast moving Strength 5 marines right there, just think of the damage you could do with melee combat squads! A 20-man squad would be like being hit by a 15 strong Arco Flagellant warband, except the crusader squad will shoot you first, and is more durable as well.

I'm actually really pleased with the Black Templars integration; it could have been a lot worse than it is as their options may feel buried but many are thematic (e.g - put Sword Brethren into squads as Veteran Sergeants), meanwhile their rules are very flexible, letting you take a good close combat army, or a good shooting army, or even any army good at both; it's entirely up to you.

Laughingmonk
12-09-2013, 00:17
Obviously none of this is fully tested so far, but my thoughts:

1 - White Scars are, unfortunately, pretty much strictly better than the Raven Guard. Hit & Run is more beneficial than double use jump packs, even for jump pack troops. The bike upgrade is amazing, as bikes are a strong troop choice. First turn stealth is often redundant with night fight. I think this is a clear case where one is better than the other.

2 - Black Templars cannot be evaluated from the traits alone. You have to consider the CT as reading "you get these traits, you lose tactical squads, scout squads, and librarians, but you gain crusader squads". Taking in the full impact of this, they should be very good for the same reason the space wolves are very good: super versatile basic troop squads. You can do a lot of things with the BT Crusader squad you cannot do with other units. I think people who look at this without considering the power of the troops slot for Templars are making a mistake (just like evaluating WS without considering you can make your bikes troops would be a mistake).

3 - The IH power could be very, very good, but I think on average, it will not be, because people will build the wrong lists. They will either over-allocate to infantry for the 6+ FNP (it's not that impressive), or they will take the biggest vehicles possible, overspending on them and not having enough hull points. The reality is that IWND is most effective when there is a lot of it, and a lot of it at armor values that make it plausible to use it. In short, a good IH army will field the most excess hull points (HP above one) at AV12+; the fastest path to this is with medium armor. I think things like the six dreadnought army or the triple dread / triple pred army, or IWND Storm Ravens are likely to be the best builds here, and done properly, they are going to be painful to deal with. Also, IWND captains and chapter masters on bikes.

4 - IF > UM, for me, but it's very close. Yes, the UM trait is more flexible and allows you to use multiple kinds of troops, but the IF trait is always on and tank hunters is actually really freaking good. I think the ubiquity of bolters in marine armies paired with tank hunters is going to make IF solid, but neither of these strike me as spectacular. However, they strike me as always useful.

5 - Salamanders. This one requires a bit more thought. On the surface, I am going to simply ignore the re-rolls against flame weapons, because you don't see a lot of them and it's just not that good. On the other hand, re-rolling your own flame weapons suddenly means that Salamanders can drop the pain on hordes far better than most other marines, as multiple flamers are going to clear out orks, guard, tyranids, etc. in absolutely horrific fashion. This limits your anti-tank potential, however, which leads me to point number two: the Salamanders are, like the IH, very build-determined. A player who plays the min/max game to put his anti-tank in squads without flame and vice-versa is probably going to get the maximum benefit here. Similarly, if you also take Vulkan, you are getting twin-linked melta everywhere, which is also brutally good. Maybe overlooked here is the master-crafting of weapons. This makes plasma weapons far more reliable for characters, and it also makes characters significantly more dangerous in combat, depending on what is master-crafted. Given that you almost always miss with at least a single attack, this is very similar to all Salamander characters having an extra attack. This is a non-trivial advantage that many people will fail to consider.

So which one is best?

Tier 1: White Scars (always good, sometimes great) and Black Templars (seriously, the crusader squad is a huge advantage).

Tier 2: Iron Hands and Salamanders, assuming they are built with a genuine understanding of how to maximize the value of the rules. If they are just built as basic marines that happen to have some extras, I rate them in tier 4.

Tier 3: Imperial Fists and Ultramarines. Always solid, never great.

Tier 4: Raven Guard (sorry)



The UM CT is easily tier one with WS, even superior in the light of calgar and Tigurius. IF CT are decent but highly situational on who you are fighting. Tyranids, eldar, and dark eldar really don't care about about tank hunters or a few extra bolt rounds. Eldar of both kinds will still out shoot you with real weapons while tyranids will close so fast that you will maybe have one round of shooting at optimal with bolters, in which UM are still superior as they can twin link or buff almost all of their shooting during that key turn.

The fact is that marines rely on killing their opponent as quickly as possible once they reach optimal. With the right weapons. At the right time. Games are generally decided within the first two to three turns, and UM can bring far better abilities to the table than their counterparts doing those key turns.

SniperDan84
12-09-2013, 00:39
I think the main problem with Black Templars is that people have it in their head that they're a close combat army

Maybe because they are:

(p.52 last paragraph) In battle, the Black Templars [prefer] the close proximity of melee to the impersonal confrontation of ranged warefare.


The Black Templars chapter tactics gives you lots of little bonuses, but unlike the others it doesn't really encourage any particular style of play Which is more of an Ultramarine thing anyways, keeping a balanced (which I have to agree with many posters here, the UM CT are great, especially for a UM army.)


while Crusader is useful for combat troops, it can be useful for shooting troops that need to reposition quickly, and is handy for running down an enemy.

I'm saying it's hardly useful for combat troops (average of an extra inch per run turn) and even less so for a shooty army. Though I do agree one can come up with some scenarios where it is helpful, but it's hardly as useful as every time a bulk of your army shoots you reroll half your misses (IF) or most times you fail a save you get a free 6+ to save a man (IH), etc.


Adamantium Will makes you a bit less likely to suffer from damaging or detrimental psychic powers. Characters being more likely to win challenges might help you to drop enemy characters if you need to.

But the real bonus are the crusader squads, and these I suppose are the main thing the chapter tactics encourage you to take as they are great units. I mean, who cares if you don't re-roll 1's to hit with shooting if you can simply take more of it than any other marine army, and have it backed by more wounds and more close combat attacks into the bargain? Or you can equip them for combat and dish out a heap of attacks; mass Strength 4 is nothing to scoff at even if you won't be ignoring many saves.

Their characters are also pretty good; grimaldus' Zealot bubble is great for combat oriented forces, but it's also ideal for ensuring units hold their ground on objectives to the very last model, and dish out a bit of extra hurt in the process. Helbrecht's ability to give the entire army Furious Charge and Fleet for a turn is one hell of an ability; in a combat oriented force that could be a heap of fast moving Strength 5 marines right there, just think of the damage you could do with melee combat squads! A 20-man squad would be like being hit by a 15 strong Arco Flagellant warband, except the crusader squad will shoot you first, and is more durable as well.

I'm actually really pleased with the Black Templars integration; it could have been a lot worse than it is as their options may feel buried but many are thematic (e.g - put Sword Brethren into squads as Veteran Sergeants), meanwhile their rules are very flexible, letting you take a good close combat army, or a good shooting army, or even any army good at both; it's entirely up to you.

Since the discussion was comparing the CT power, I was trying to stick to that as opposed to comparing Special Characters and Squads. Even if we were to consider the squad (because they're the only chapter that gets their own special squad in the codex), the chapter tactics are underwhelming in relation to the squad (hence my meh rating). The squad itself is decent, the problem it lacks is that marines with 2 attacks aren't particularly skilled against any CC unit, and they're not any better at shooting than a normal marine squad (they're just more guys, which you pay the same price for as normal marines so it's not really a boon for shooting). The large squad becomes good generally in 2 scenarios, if it charges, or if nobody is killed beforehand. The problem is that to ensure no one is hurt, you mount them (negating basically all the CT benefits), if you don't mount them, they aren't really moving fast enough to not take significant casualties on the way in. Hence where a CT that doesn't become useless if mounted, increases their survivability, increases their CC prowess, or helps them move across the board significantly faster would be ideal. The funny part is, the Black Templar CT do all of these things, but they do them in the worst way possible (survivability only against psychic attacks which is basically negated by their lack of psykers providing protection, CC prowess only for characters in challenges which SM veteran sergeants/HQs look like they'll be able to hold their own in most challenges anyways, ~1" faster move only when running).

To me, it comes across as a lack of synergy in the list from a unit/CT point of view, which is why I'd rate them a meh.

Please don't take this as I'm saying you can't build a list with the new codex, I'm simply saying that BT CT aren't that good for their army, particularly when you compare it to the other CTs and their respective themes.

Haravikk
12-09-2013, 15:27
Maybe because they are[/url]
Preferring close combat isn't really the same thing as specialising in it; their last codex didn't exactly scream close combat army either. In this regard Crusader is an adequate rule for them as it makes them a bit quicker at closing with an enemy, but it's not leaping out and forcing you to build your army around it, it just means that if you choose to close with an enemy then you can do so a bit more easily, and are more likely to run them down with units that win combat.

[QUOTE=SniperDan84;6913197]Since the discussion was comparing the CT power, I was trying to stick to that as opposed to comparing Special Characters and Squads.
Sure, if you're comparing only the chapter tactics rules to each other then the Black Templars one is easily the worst, but that doesn't really tell you anything as chapter tactics aren't just about the bonuses they give directly, but also about the characters and units they unlock into the bargain. Sure you don't really have to invest in these, but considering chapter tactics without also considering characters doesn't make for a very useful comparison IMO. Obviously it's a little unfair on the Iron Hands who don't get anything, but their rules make up for it by being (potentially) powerful with the right list.


they're just more guys, which you pay the same price for as normal marines so it's not really a boon for shooting
Neophytes are four points cheaper than Initiates, so if you were comparing against two 10-man tactical squads and with both units equipped with bolters only, you're still saving 40 points, or getting four Neophytes for free along with the extra bolter fire they provide. Put another way; 17 regular tactical marines with bolters re-rolling to-Hit on 1's is ~13 hits at long range or ~26 at short range, meanwhile 10 Initiates and 10 Neophytes (only 2 points extra) is ~12 hits at long range and ~24 at short range, but you're also getting 3 extra Wounds and 3 extra Attacks into the bargain, as well as Crusader and Adamantium Will at no extra cost. I think it's a pretty good package.
I know Land Raiders are generally regarded as over-costed, but the ability to take a Land Raider Crusader as a dedicated transport is IMO pretty sweet as you can still take a squad size of 16, can charge from the vehicle, it has plenty of armour and has plenty of shooting of its own to pour into an enemy before you wreck them with bolt pistol fire and massed Strength 4 attacks (or Strength 5 if you took Helbrecht as well). Sure they're still not going to exactly chew through armour, but with up to 48 Attacks who needs to?

I dunno, I think they're a great option with great flexibility as you can equip them just like any normal tactical squad but throw in a few Initiatives for a little extra durability, opt for more massed attacks or shooting with a bit of a discount, or nab yourself a great anti-infantry tank without sacrificing a Heavy Support choice. Most crucially however is that if you slap a 20 wound squad on an objective they're not going to be easy to get rid of; if they have extra attacks then anything that rushes them will suffer for it, while if you go for bolters you'll do Imperial Fists levels of damage to the enemy as they approach.


But yeah, you really can't compare chapter tactics without considering what they allow you to take, not least of all because if you don't then White Scars aren't actually that good since their main benefit is on their bikes (Hit & Run may sound fun, but when you already have And They Shall Know No Fear you're really just increasing the chances that you'll withdraw). White Scars really stand out once you factor in Kor'sarro Khan as he's not only the cheapest special character, but making bikes Troops and adding Scout to already pretty good rules is one hell of an upgrade. The White Scars combo also makes bike squads as good as Ravenwing squads in many ways, but for 6 points per model less (depending how you account for Kor'sarro Khan, but since you need an HQ choice anyway he's very good value).

A.T.
12-09-2013, 16:07
Neophytes are four points cheaper than InitiatesNeophytes are a bit of a trap. They aren't bad as such, you'd just be better off with their points in marines in most cases (the exceptions being massed AP1-3 fire) - they are essentially worse than a marine point for point except in the role of plasma sponge so their value will vary depending on what you face.

As for the old codex not screaming close combat - a 600pt grimaldus/terminator squad could zeal-charge an average of 21" on foot and throw between 100 and 120 attacks with rerolls, plus up to 8 more from Grimaldus (though cheaper generic chaplains were more common). Even the old crusaders had four attacks on the charge.

Schismotive
13-09-2013, 00:08
Neophytes are a bit of a trap. They aren't bad as such, you'd just be better off with their points in marines in most cases (the exceptions being massed AP1-3 fire) - they are essentially worse than a marine point for point except in the role of plasma sponge so their value will vary depending on what you face.

As for the old codex not screaming close combat - a 600pt grimaldus/terminator squad could zeal-charge an average of 21" on foot and throw between 100 and 120 attacks with rerolls, plus up to 8 more from Grimaldus (though cheaper generic chaplains were more common). Even the old crusaders had four attacks on the charge.

Most of the time it's better to just run initiates; I do use some neophytes but they're helpfulness is nowhere near the fantasy people have of 20 man squads rapid firing bolters...

The bt chapter tactics does grant us crusader squads, but like said before, more guys and more weapons still means more points. Aside from this, crusader really does nothing, adamantium will is useless because all psykers use buffs instead of witchfires or whatever, and the challenge buffs we get only affects characters if, and only if they get into close combat challenges, hmm...

Brotheroracle
13-09-2013, 00:43
Crusader is a sweet rule, there have been many games lost because a run roll for an objective failed.

Adamantium will is also decent, I hate getting misfortune cast on me, or withering, or shriek, increasing my chance to resist across the board is handy.

Chaos players will hate you for your challenge buff.

I see lightning claws being good for rending chance in challenges.

Crusader squads are sweet, and you clearly have not played against a templar player with the old book because the 5 man las-plas was the only competitive troop choice fielded in 5th and 6th. In fact the only BT Tournament lists I saw were shooty BT lists. With the new dex opening a lot more efficient shooting in other slots and stronger CC options you might see a return of mele oriented crusader armies.

Schismotive
13-09-2013, 00:59
Crusader squads are sweet, and you clearly have not played against a templar player with the old book because the 5 man las-plas was the only competitive troop choice fielded in 5th and 6th. In fact the only Tournament lists I saw were shooty BT lists. With the new dex opening a lot more efficient shooting in other slots and stronger CC options you might see a could of mele oriented crusader armies.

I've been a templar player for a while, and I was one of those guys running lasplas squads. They were somewhat competitive, but flimsy and had to zeal away from objectives... any smart player could have had your army dancing on strings. But anyway yeah the crusader squad is great now, really the only part of the chapter tactics I really like.

Miredorf
13-09-2013, 09:53
I think the best thing is that we are going to be seeing at 4-5 different types of SM army styles. All very different between them. This can only be good for the game, because before was not only everybody and their cousin in power armour, but also razorback spam, etc, etc.

SniperDan84
13-09-2013, 13:00
Preferring close combat isn't really the same thing as specialising in it; their last codex didn't exactly scream close combat army either.

I have to disagree with this, they didn't get access to whirlwinds and devastator squads (the most symbolic of the shooting options in a Space Marine codex). They crossed the board a lot faster than a normal army (Zeal move) and they had 2 of their 4 vows adding significant CC bonuses. Note 1 of the vows was trading cover saves for a 6+ invul, which is definitely a CC focused one, but I never saw it as that powerful (and I never met someone who used it).


In this regard Crusader is an adequate rule for them as it makes them a bit quicker at closing with an enemy, but it's not leaping out and forcing you to build your army around it, it just means that if you choose to close with an enemy then you can do so a bit more easily, and are more likely to run them down with units that win combat.

And against the current armies out there, I don't think the small movement benefit helps cross the field quickly enough. Honestly for comparison, in the previous dex, they were at the cusp of being quick enough. With the zeal move they were getting an average of 2.5" extra compared to the run with crusader (3.5" better than the new codex if you had crusader seals). Obviously slower is not going to make them better.



Sure, if you're comparing only the chapter tactics rules to each other then the Black Templars one is easily the worst, but that doesn't really tell you anything as chapter tactics aren't just about the bonuses they give directly, but also about the characters and units they unlock into the bargain. Sure you don't really have to invest in these, but considering chapter tactics without also considering characters doesn't make for a very useful comparison IMO. Obviously it's a little unfair on the Iron Hands who don't get anything, but their rules make up for it by being (potentially) powerful with the right list.


That's a fair point, but at the same time if the OP wants to simply compare the bonuses, it's seems unfair to call someone out of line who called the tactics meh when alone they are meh. Calling someone's argument wrong because you want to change the framework of the discussion isn't very fair. I'm still going to rate the BT CT lower even with the special characters because in combination they're not really providing much benefit. Helbrecht and Grimaldus will do just fine in most challenges without the bonuses, the run speed directly conflicts with the fleet/furious charge because you can't run on the turn you charge (so there's no real synergy there). The characters are solid, and help the army/theme well. The CT bonuses are not useless, they're just weaker.



Neophytes are four points cheaper than Initiates, so if you were comparing against two 10-man tactical squads and with both units equipped with bolters only, you're still saving 40 points, or getting four Neophytes for free along with the extra bolter fire they provide. Put another way; 17 regular tactical marines with bolters re-rolling to-Hit on 1's is ~13 hits at long range or ~26 at short range, meanwhile 10 Initiates and 10 Neophytes (only 2 points extra) is ~12 hits at long range and ~24 at short range, but you're also getting 3 extra Wounds and 3 extra Attacks into the bargain, as well as Crusader and Adamantium Will at no extra cost. I think it's a pretty good package.


When I said the same cost I meant apples to apples, the most accurate comparison would be 10 marines and 10 scouts...thus they end up being the same. Note a small benefit would be that since they are separate squads you can split fire if desired and have one squad provide cover for the other, versus a crusader squad who can't do that. The counter to this benefit is that if you're going CC, the whole crusader squad gets into combat at the same time, another reason why I'd call the crusader squads better for CC. Beside if you're going the shooting route, I'd want smaller squads (combat squads bonus) as you can always have them all shoot the same thing but you can't split the larger squads fire if necessary (lots of small weak targets).



I know Land Raiders are generally regarded as over-costed, but the ability to take a Land Raider Crusader as a dedicated transport is IMO pretty sweet as you can still take a squad size of 16, can charge from the vehicle, it has plenty of armour and has plenty of shooting of its own to pour into an enemy before you wreck them with bolt pistol fire and massed Strength 4 attacks (or Strength 5 if you took Helbrecht as well). Sure they're still not going to exactly chew through armour, but with up to 48 Attacks who needs to?



I agree LRC as dedicated transports is a nice option, but it's hardly a huge boon. It definitely needs a decent point start (1500+) and like you say the LRC isn't cheap. As I mention in my previous post, one of the effective CC uses of crusader squads is to ensure the charge by mounting up. Bring it back to CT, putting them in a Land Raider nullifies the benefit of Crusader and Adamantium Will.


Crusader is a sweet rule, there have been many games lost because a run roll for an objective failed.



Like I've said before, can it come in handy yes, but on average it's only giving you an extra 1" movement. That means it really only helps you if your 4" away from the objective at the end of the game versus 3". In addition if one of the best situations you can come up with is the very last movement for specific game types for a squad who must be in a specific situation (just too far away from the objective), I wouldn't call that a sweet CT bonus.




I see lightning claws being good for rending chance in challenges.



It only makes a difference if they have 2+ armour, otherwise a rending 6 does nothing different than a AP3 6.




Crusader squads are sweet, and you clearly have not played against a templar player with the old book because the 5 man las-plas was the only competitive troop choice fielded in 5th and 6th. In fact the only BT Tournament lists I saw were shooty BT lists. With the new dex opening a lot more efficient shooting in other slots and stronger CC options you might see a return of mele oriented crusader armies.



I played Horde Templars all through 5th and 6th. It's biggest downfall was the high cost of marines/lack of grenades. They definitely could have used some additional options to make a much more diversified codex, but really some point cost adjustments was the biggest thing they needed. In the new codex, they've gotten the points reductions but lost the strong CC buffs only to have them replaced by weak generic buffs.

Pendragon
13-09-2013, 13:56
Like I've said before, can it come in handy yes, but on average it's only giving you an extra 1" movement. That means it really only helps you if your 4" away from the objective at the end of the game versus 3". In addition if one of the best situations you can come up with is the very last movement for specific game types for a squad who must be in a specific situation (just too far away from the objective), I wouldn't call that a sweet CT bonus.

While technically true, might I suggest that you're thinking about it the wrong way. Yes, If you spend all your shooting phases running to get across the board faster, then on average, you will only be a little faster. But they way I look at it, it makes running more reliable. A lot of the time, you run to hit a certain objective, for instance reaching charge range... or an actual objective. Rolling a one in those cases usually stings quite a bit, especially if you could have been better off shooting. This is where crusader shines imho.

Schismotive
13-09-2013, 22:55
Crusader can help you get those few extra inches sure, but running means can't assault that turn, your not shooting your lascannon, and that you're also out in the open, which is a death sentence for space marines. I can only see crusader being kinda useful in a horde marine list where you've got like 4 big crusader squads trying to run across the board, but such a strategy will likely get you tabled pretty quick.

Ssilmath
13-09-2013, 23:01
Crusader can help you get those few extra inches sure, but running means can't assault that turn, your not shooting your lascannon, and that you're also out in the open, which is a death sentence for space marines. I can only see crusader being kinda useful in a horde marine list where you've got like 4 big crusader squads trying to run across the board, but such a strategy will likely get you tabled pretty quick.

Depends entirely on what's on the board. If there's little or no cover, sure. But if you aren't trying to do the las/plas spam (Which seems foolish to me anyways, too many points on too few bodies) and are gearing your army for melee that extra run reliability is fantastic. There's also the fact that running can get you further into terrain instead of out in the open. It's all in how you want to use your Crusader Squads, I guess.

Shizzbam
13-09-2013, 23:07
I rather like the Raven Guard CT as it fits the mobile list I play and as my Marines are a self-made Raven Guard Successor chapter it all adds to the fluffiness :D

Pendragon
14-09-2013, 03:23
Crusader can help you get those few extra inches sure, but running means can't assault that turn

My bad. Have been fighting too much eldar lately (who have fleet) with my IG (who never, ever assault).

Oppressor
15-09-2013, 06:20
Voted Iron Hands as it favors every/any build. Salamanders are a close second.

A.T.
15-09-2013, 11:17
My bad. Have been fighting too much eldar lately (who have fleet) with my IG (who never, ever assault).Can't assault after running with fleet anymore either :p

Getting that extra inch with crusader requires the whole squad to not attack the enemy in any way, shape, or form. It does make it easier to sweep non fearless/ATSKNF enemies after winning combat but it doesn't actually help the templars win combat to being with.

Freman Bloodglaive
15-09-2013, 12:05
No, I'd have to agree that the Black Templar traits aren't particularly useful, and the biggest thing going for them is Crusader Squads, because their characters are pretty lackluster.

On the other hand I actually really like the Black Templars, and think that they (or rather another "crusading" chapter) will be the allies to my Dark Angel successors. If nothing else they allow me to stick Azrael in a 19 or 20 man blob of Marines and give them a 4+ invulnerable save.

SideshowLucifer
15-09-2013, 15:35
No, I'd have to agree that the Black Templar traits aren't particularly useful, and the biggest thing going for them is Crusader Squads, because their characters are pretty lackluster.

On the other hand I actually really like the Black Templars, and think that they (or rather another "crusading" chapter) will be the allies to my Dark Angel successors. If nothing else they allow me to stick Azrael in a 19 or 20 man blob of Marines and give them a 4+ invulnerable save.

...and somewhere a true Black Templar fan died.

Dr Zoidberg
15-09-2013, 18:04
I run a IF-successor chapter, with lots of Tac Squads (usually packing HBs). So the re-roll 1s to hit is a nice extra. And the Tankhunters for my Devastators is also welcome. Don't if it's "the best", but I'm happy with it.

Freman Bloodglaive
15-09-2013, 21:41
...and somewhere a true Black Templar fan died.

Given the fact of human mortality that's quite possible.

duffybear1988
16-09-2013, 16:26
Black Templars are my favourite.

I have had a couple of games with them now and some of the highlights include - my chaplain killing a daemon prince thanks to rending, running onto an objective last turn and claiming it (wouldn't have made it without crusader rule), not dying to psychic shriek.

They're also not blatantly overpowered and fit nicely with the actual theme - crusaders.

The chapter tactics seem best arranged like this -

All rounders - Ultramarines, Black Templars, Salamanders
Scouting - Ravenguard
Bikes - White Scars
Tanks - Iron Hands
Shooty - Imperial fists

Personally I would rate Salamanders or Ravenguard as weakest, but then I'm not entirely sure you really can put them in any order that's accurate.