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Santtu
10-09-2013, 02:20
We can finally put the "catholics vs protestants" argument to rest as the new codex literally confirms that the Black Templars believe in the Emperor's divinity and often find common purpose with the Ecclesiarchy, and have evolved a complex web of mutual obligation and honour with the SoB. And still Cruddace saw fit to leave the Allies Matrix untouched.:wtf:

IcedAnimals
10-09-2013, 03:26
Wait really? I was under the impression that because the templars "revere" psykers that was the explanation for the Allies Matrix. But huh, to go out of their way to create new fluff confirming their friendship seems kind of...odd considering the matrix.

Kakapo42
10-09-2013, 03:51
And still Cruddace saw fit to leave the Allies Matrix untouched.:wtf:

Correct me if I am wrong, but are Black Templars not considered part of the Space Marines codex now? In which case they'd use the Space Marine ally status towards Sisters of Battle, rather than the older Black Templars one?

Baaltor
10-09-2013, 04:25
Wait really? I was under the impression that because the templars "revere" psykers that was the explanation for the Allies Matrix. But huh, to go out of their way to create new fluff confirming their friendship seems kind of...odd considering the matrix.

You're joking, right? I think you're serious, am I being stupid?

IcedAnimals
10-09-2013, 04:57
You're joking, right? I think you're serious, am I being stupid?

Templar fluff was rewritten so that they revere psykers now because of their connection to the emperor. And they only hate rogue psykers.

Lightning Strike!
10-09-2013, 05:34
You're joking, right? I think you're serious, am I being stupid?

I'm afraid he's not.


Templar fluff was rewritten so that they revere psykers now because of their connection to the emperor. And they only hate rogue psykers.

Indeed- they 'revere' navigators and the like.

Charistoph
10-09-2013, 05:35
We can finally put the "catholics vs protestants" argument to rest as the new codex literally confirms that the Black Templars believe in the Emperor's divinity and often find common purpose with the Ecclesiarchy, and have evolved a complex web of mutual obligation and honour with the SoB. And still Cruddace saw fit to leave the Allies Matrix untouched.:wtf:
No, he didn't leave it untouched, because:

Correct me if I am wrong, but are Black Templars not considered part of the Space Marines codex now? In which case they'd use the Space Marine ally status towards Sisters of Battle, rather than the older Black Templars one?
Correct. Pg 78 of Codex: Space Marines 6th Edition had a little Designer's Note stating something like that.


Wait really? I was under the impression that because the templars "revere" psykers that was the explanation for the Allies Matrix. But huh, to go out of their way to create new fluff confirming their friendship seems kind of...odd considering the matrix.
Um, no. Black Templars in their codex fluff would have every reason to ally with Witch Hunters and the Sisters of Battles purpose to hunt Heretics. There were other problems between them that had nothing to do with this.

Santtu
10-09-2013, 08:45
The designer's note says "Some older publications may refer to Codex: Black Templars. For all rules purposes, consider these references to instead refer to detachments from Codex: Space Marines using the Black Templars Chapter Tactics special rule." So "detachments from Codex: Space Marines using the Black Templars Chapter Tactics special rule" are still desperate allies with the SoB.

Pa1adin111
10-09-2013, 09:14
The designer's note says "Some older publications may refer to Codex: Black Templars. For all rules purposes, consider these references to instead refer to detachments from Codex: Space Marines using the Black Templars Chapter Tactics special rule." So "detachments from Codex: Space Marines using the Black Templars Chapter Tactics special rule" are still desperate allies with the SoB.
Just double and triple checked it, it's allies of convenience for space marines and sisters.

Baaltor
10-09-2013, 09:18
Okay, deep breath.

If that's true, how have they justified abhor the witch? Librarians aren't rogue Psykers, even if they aren't sanctioned. Can any of you provide quotations for my (dis)pleasure?

Also Navigators aren't psykers. WH40k publications havev specified that clearly. They do use the warp, and have a unique relationship with it though. If you think of a psyker as a spess wizard, like I do, then they sort of are psykers still....

Baaltor
10-09-2013, 09:24
If that's true, how have they justified abhor the witch? Librarians aren't rogue Psykers, even if they aren't sanctioned. Can any of you provide quotations for my (dis)pleasure? I might guess they like bound psykers, is that what you mean? But then they won't tolerate Daemonhunters, which they used to.

Also Navigators aren't psykers. WH40k publications havev specified that clearly. They do use the warp, and have a unique relationship with it though. If you think of a psyker as a spess wizard, like I do, then they sort of are psykers still....

Santtu
10-09-2013, 09:54
Just double and triple checked it, it's allies of convenience for space marines and sisters.

But desperate allies for Black Templars and Sisters.


If that's true, how have they justified abhor the witch? Librarians aren't rogue Psykers, even if they aren't sanctioned. Can any of you provide quotations for my (dis)pleasure?

It is suggested that either Black Templars still adhere to the Edict of Nikaea, their geneseed is somehow corrupted or all their librarians were killed at some point in the past. However

If the Emperor decides to once again bless the Black Templars with Librarians, they will embrace it, but until that day, they will wage battle without these powerful warriors at their side.

Menthak
10-09-2013, 11:25
I do wonder how hard it would be for Games-workshop to just get it right for once.

corps
10-09-2013, 12:24
it s remind me of a novel "helsreach" where the black templar mention not using any kind of psycker and that they toleraed "navigator" as a necessary evil. it soud weird they can se them now. it ssimilar to the white scar "dreanought" aberration. in ther background they consider dreadnought to be a crime to the spirit of the warior. (sorry i don't have their books at hands so i can't give the price reason for it) but in the white dwarf and in the suplement death from the sky they have one. same for the devastator they don't use them because it s slow them. i suppose, but this is just a guess that they don't use the new centurion too. the last codex also give them acces to dreadnought whith make me thing that if you want to stick to the fluff you have to remove some unit from your list because GW won't fix it by themselves as other player not into the fluff we field those "fluff aberations". deniying them acces to those units may be move away those player from the game and no matter how small they are in number doing so could damage GW image. somthing that GW don't want because they have already a lot of bad images.

Pa1adin111
10-09-2013, 19:34
But desperate allies for Black Templars and Sisters.
No it isn't because as Santtu pointed out:
"The designer's note says "Some older publications may refer to Codex: Black Templars. For all rules purposes, consider these references to instead refer to detachments from Codex: Space Marines using the Black Templars Chapter Tactics special rule.""
Hence Black Templars use the Space Marine allies chart now.

Surgency
10-09-2013, 20:02
I do wonder how hard it would be for Games-workshop to just get it right for once.

Considering its their fluff, they can write that all Ultramarines wear pink and Raven Guard all revere daisys if they want to, and it'd be "right". That's the nature of a retcon :p

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Brother Haephestus
10-09-2013, 20:14
No it isn't because as Santtu pointed out:
"The designer's note says "Some older publications may refer to Codex: Black Templars. For all rules purposes, consider these references to instead refer to detachments from Codex: Space Marines using the Black Templars Chapter Tactics special rule.""
Hence Black Templars use the Space Marine allies chart now.
I think you're misreading that. I believe the way this is to read is "Go back and in any document you see 'Codex: Black Templars', change it now to read 'Codex: Space Marines using the Black Templars Chapter Tactics special rule", which should be fancy talk for, "No, nothing has changed in regards to the allies chart."

Then again, I thought for sure that some rules in Daemons couldn't possibly be interpreted the way we were doing it, so don't quote me.

Charistoph
10-09-2013, 23:54
Chalk that up as one more thing to FAQ so it's perfectly clear, I guess.

Litcheur
11-09-2013, 00:50
But desperate allies for Black Templars and Sisters.
Because Dark Templars HATE all xenos.

Not my fault if GW's writers are basement dwellers who think elves are their kin and women are an alien specie.
Hence the Sisters as desperate allies and Eldars as allies of convenience.

SniperDan84
11-09-2013, 01:14
Because Dark Templars HATE all xenos.

Not my fault if GW's writers are basement dwellers who think elves are their kin and women are an alien specie.
Hence the Sisters as desperate allies and Eldars as allies of convenience.

I was under the impression the Templars and Sisters didn't get along because (I don't remember from where) I was always under the impression that the Sisters were more of a Military Police sort of force. They're responsible for rooting out corruption from within the Imperium. This means ensuring that human populations aren't corrupted by Chaos, that Imperial units are following their rituals and lastly, since the Codex Astartes is basically a big book of rules for Marines, I would believe that the Sisters would generally see disregarding it as borderline corruption. The Templars on the other hand see the Codex Astartes as getting in the way of killing all who oppose the Emperor. To me, I could see this causing huge amounts of tension between the armies. That would explain the Allies of Desperation.

EDIT: Clarified a few of the 'it's.

Menthak
11-09-2013, 01:46
Considering its their fluff, they can write that all Ultramarines wear pink and Raven Guard all revere daisys if they want to, and it'd be "right". That's the nature of a retcon :p

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You knew damn well what I meant Surgency :shifty:

I just wish that Games-workshop could get it right as per their fans general consensus

And yes by fans I mean us on warseer.

And yes, by fans on warseer I mean me.

Litcheur
11-09-2013, 02:20
I was under the impression the Templars and Sisters didn't get along because (I don't remember from where) I was always under the impression that the Sisters were more of a Military Police sort of force. They're responsible for rooting out corruption from within the Imperium. This means ensuring that human populations aren't corrupted by Chaos, that Imperial units are following their rituals and lastly, since the Codex Astartes is basically a big book of rules for Marines, I would believe that the Sisters would generally see disregarding it as borderline corruption. The Templars on the other hand see the Codex Astartes as getting in the way of killing all who oppose the Emperor. To me, I could see this causing huge amounts of tension between the armies. That would explain the Allies of Desperation.

EDIT: Clarified a few of the 'it's.
Nice try. Unfortunately, it doesn't work well with the Ockham's Razor : the simplest explanation is the best.

The Alliance Matrix doesn't make any sense, don't even try to explain this pile of crap.

Or maybe you could try to explain why...
- Black Templars, who loathe xenos and are supposed be one the most extremist faction of the whole Imperium, have Xenos (Tau and Eldars) as allies of convenience, and rank them higher than humans (Sisters).
- Black Templars don't like the Ecclesiarchy, but Space Wolves do. Because murdering "the heretics of Fenris" is damn fine.
- Almost everybody see Necrons as suspicious, except... Grey Knights. To a Grey Knight, a Necron is fine too. Just like any Marine or human.
- Taus would rather have Plague Marines in their ranks than Sisters. Sisters are just, like, Deamons.
- Space Marines would rather fight for "the greater good" than ally themselves with the Sisters or the Grey Knights. Because they LOVE the Space Commies.

Honestly, don't try to find any coherence in that matrix. There is none. Some lines are quite laxist and allow very specific lists (eldar pirates, corrupted IG), and some others are so restrictive you have to dig deep into the fluff to find what old grudge could explain why one faction would dislike another.

Surgency
11-09-2013, 04:02
You knew damn well what I meant Surgency :shifty:

I just wish that Games-workshop could get it right as per their fans general consensus

And yes by fans I mean us on warseer.

And yes, by fans on warseer I mean me.

Maybe I did, but I can neither confirm not deny that statement :p

Personally I'm happy they got rid of the "BT hate all psykers" but as I always found that hard to swallow. I'm not quite sure I agree with removing the animosity between marines and sisters though, I always liked that they seemed to despise each other immensely


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Pa1adin111
11-09-2013, 04:30
Maybe I did, but I can neither confirm not deny that statement :p

Personally I'm happy they got rid of the "BT hate all psykers" but as I always found that hard to swallow. I'm not quite sure I agree with removing the animosity between marines and sisters though, I always liked that they seemed to despise each other immensely


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Well they didn't get rid of all animosity as sisters and marines are allies of convenience not battle brothers.
In regard to the question of the BT as opposed to marine allies matrix I think a lot of the confusion comes from 40k radio stating that the BT kept that old allies list as if it were stated in the codex. I think many people believe this to be the case, it is not. The only reference as to how rules from other books relate to BT is the designers note on pg 78 of the codex saying to treat references to codex BT in older publications as references to codex space marines using the BT chapter tactics. I honestly think that that is pretty straight forward and far less cryptic than some other rules explanations that GW has done in the past.

IcedAnimals
11-09-2013, 07:09
Well they didn't get rid of all animosity as sisters and marines are allies of convenience not battle brothers.
In regard to the question of the BT as opposed to marine allies matrix I think a lot of the confusion comes from 40k radio stating that the BT kept that old allies list as if it were stated in the codex. I think many people believe this to be the case, it is not. The only reference as to how rules from other books relate to BT is the designers note on pg 78 of the codex saying to treat references to codex BT in older publications as references to codex space marines using the BT chapter tactics. I honestly think that that is pretty straight forward and far less cryptic than some other rules explanations that GW has done in the past.

How is that not the case? That note is "pretty straight forward". in saying that the black templars still use their own unique allies matrix. Here let me help you.
Take the older publication (the big rule book allies matrix)
Change "Codex black templar" to "codex space marines using the black templar chapter tactics special rule" as per the new design note.

kilokalex
11-09-2013, 07:26
Not to worry by the time codex sisters of battle comes out we will be on eighth edition and allies will be gone.

Pa1adin111
11-09-2013, 08:26
How is that not the case? That note is "pretty straight forward". in saying that the black templars still use their own unique allies matrix. Here let me help you.
Take the older publication (the big rule book allies matrix)
Change "Codex black templar" to "codex space marines using the black templar chapter tactics special rule" as per the new design note.
Honestly what you say here really doesn't make any sense. Replace codex BT with codex Space marines with BT chapter tactics means that codex BT has been replaced with codex space marines. Codex BT no longer exists. That and the fact that the author takes time to make special mention of how many times the BT have gone to war alongside the sisters and how a complex web of honor and mutual obligation has evolved between them appears to be his way of making a reference to this change.

Latro_
11-09-2013, 09:57
We're talking about a company that changed one of the founding chapters colours because he liked British racing car green and named one of their primarchs after a bloke called angry Ron who was the landlord of a local pub...

You can make up 100 different reason they hate each other and half the time with GW... thats their sole intent for you to do so... its jsut most of the time the internet sees it as fluff trolling.

SniperDan84
11-09-2013, 12:28
Nice try. Unfortunately, it doesn't work well with the Ockham's Razor : the simplest explanation is the best.

The Alliance Matrix doesn't make any sense, don't even try to explain this pile of crap.

Or maybe you could try to explain why...
- Black Templars, who loathe xenos and are supposed be one the most extremist faction of the whole Imperium, have Xenos (Tau and Eldars) as allies of convenience, and rank them higher than humans (Sisters).
- Black Templars don't like the Ecclesiarchy, but Space Wolves do. Because murdering "the heretics of Fenris" is damn fine.
- Almost everybody see Necrons as suspicious, except... Grey Knights. To a Grey Knight, a Necron is fine too. Just like any Marine or human.
- Taus would rather have Plague Marines in their ranks than Sisters. Sisters are just, like, Deamons.
- Space Marines would rather fight for "the greater good" than ally themselves with the Sisters or the Grey Knights. Because they LOVE the Space Commies.

Honestly, don't try to find any coherence in that matrix. There is none. Some lines are quite laxist and allow very specific lists (eldar pirates, corrupted IG), and some others are so restrictive you have to dig deep into the fluff to find what old grudge could explain why one faction would dislike another.

Ultimately I agree with you that most of the allies chart is just darts at a dart board (this case may be as well). They probably didn't put too much thought into it. I was simply responding to the OP's discussion regarding Sisters and Black Templars and the relationship between the armies. I was offering a theory that could explain the allies chart.


Honestly what you say here really doesn't make any sense. Replace codex BT with codex Space marines with BT chapter tactics means that codex BT has been replaced with codex space marines. Codex BT no longer exists. That and the fact that the author takes time to make special mention of how many times the BT have gone to war alongside the sisters and how a complex web of honor and mutual obligation has evolved between them appears to be his way of making a reference to this change.

I disagree here, I think what they said made sense. The rule says replace references to Codex: Black Templars with Space Marines using the Black Templar Chapter Tactics (BTCT). I open the rulebook to the Allies Matrix, and I see a line for Codex: Black Templars. So I then apply the rule from the space marine dex, meaning the Codex:Black Templars line now represents Codex:Space Marines with BTCT. Thus they have their own allies matrix. Doesn't seem particularly confusing from that regard.

Though if someone is strictly RAW, they could argue Black Templars could use either the Space Maines allies chart or the Black Templars line because there isn't any current rule on how to handle a codex that technically falls under 2 categories of the allies matrix. Note: I don't believe RAI you have a choice, I believe they have to use the BT line in the chart.

arthurfallz
11-09-2013, 18:27
I'm going to agree that the BT still use their line on the Allies Matrix. So unless an update to Faq comes out for the BRB instructing us to eliminate the BT line from the chart, they still have their own line - it just references the correct codex/tactic mix now.

Carlosophy
11-09-2013, 22:07
In a rulebook sense, a 'Black Templars' army is a force chosen from Codex: Black Templars. As they now come under the banner of 'Space Marines' as they are chosen from Codex: Space Marines they have no trouble allying with Sisters. If an opponent ever argued just maintain your chapter is the 'Noir Templars', and are often mistaken for the BT in battle.

Vet.Sister
11-09-2013, 23:46
In a rulebook sense, a 'Black Templars' army is a force chosen from Codex: Black Templars. As they now come under the banner of 'Space Marines' as they are chosen from Codex: Space Marines they have no trouble allying with Sisters. If an opponent ever argued just maintain your chapter is the 'Noir Templars', and are often mistaken for the BT in battle.

LULZ, I suppose it really does come down to what your opponent thinks. If they don't care, then game on!

Theocracity
11-09-2013, 23:53
The recent fluff removes the one fig leaf of rationale for the strange ally relationship between BT and SoB. I'm in agreement that RaW its pretty clear you still use the BT ally chart, but I can't see any reason why anyone would object to a house rule to fix that. It's not like there are any broken combos that are being prevented.

Charistoph
12-09-2013, 01:23
...It's not like there are any broken combos that are being prevented.

Yet. We'll have to see when they bother doing Sisters again.

IcedAnimals
12-09-2013, 03:16
In a rulebook sense, a 'Black Templars' army is a force chosen from Codex: Black Templars. As they now come under the banner of 'Space Marines' as they are chosen from Codex: Space Marines they have no trouble allying with Sisters. If an opponent ever argued just maintain your chapter is the 'Noir Templars', and are often mistaken for the BT in battle.

If you are going to use the black templar rules, you are using ALL their rules. What you call your templars doesn't matter. You can't decide to use templar rules but ignore their ally matrix. What you are saying is basically "My tyranids are actually an imperial experiment and use the grey knight ally matrix, they just look like nids." Yeah that doesn't work. There is no way around that without a house ruling, but don't expect to ever be able to use the codex space marine matrix for a black templar army in any tournament.

I Am Forsaken
12-09-2013, 05:06
Yet. We'll have to see when they bother doing Sisters again.

Calling it now, Sisters and Grey Knights rolled into one book Codex: Inquisition.

Fear Itself
12-09-2013, 06:05
Calling it now, Sisters and Grey Knights rolled into one book Codex: Inquisition.

Which could be terrible, as an attempt to not recreate something akin to the previous Grey Knight codex.

It would be to how Kelly was comically tame with the C:CSM god-specific lores, in what I can only assume was an attempt to never create another 'JAWS' spell or the like.

Charistoph
12-09-2013, 06:19
Calling it now, Sisters and Grey Knights rolled into one book Codex: Inquisition.

Which could be terrible, as an attempt to not recreate something akin to the previous Grey Knight codex.

It would be to how Kelly was comically tame with the C:CSM god-specific lores, in what I can only assume was an attempt to never create another 'JAWS' spell or the like.
I thought there was only one Grey Knight codex... What they had before was Daemonhunters.

But hey, why not? They folded in Black Templars in order to avoid having to make more unique units and reduce the market glut, and the Sisters require pretty much EVERYTHING to be redone ala Dark Eldar.

Fear Itself
12-09-2013, 06:24
I thought there was only one Grey Knight codex... What they had before was Daemonhunters.

Hence the use of "previous" to refer to the codex that exists currently, as Codex: Inquisition would be the current codex upon release.

I'm not referring to Codex: Deamonhunters, as it was bad for altogether different reasons.

Nubl0
12-09-2013, 06:37
I thought sisters and Templar didn't get along because of vandirs reign of blood or somthing, seeing as the daughters of the emperor fought for him then and the BT no doubt had to deal with. Seeing as they lead the crusade back to terra and all. Or maybe I have just totally got it all mixed up heh.

A.T.
12-09-2013, 09:24
I thought sisters and Templar didn't get along because of vandirs reign of blood or somthing, seeing as the daughters of the emperor fought for him then and the BT no doubt had to deal with.Nah, the templars even honoured the sisters on their campaign banner. At the end of the day the sisters did the Emperors work (in the literal sense of being personally brought before the Emperor and given instructions) and their later formation into the sororitas was carried out by the man that was at the head of the opposition to Vandire during the war and who was arm-twisted into the job of ecclesiarch by none other than the head of the custodes.