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Odin
10-09-2013, 17:22
So, all the other special edition codexes sold out ages ago, but the White Scars one is still available. Are they the least popular of the first founding chapters? Or is it just that White Scars appeal to people who don't like wasting 40 on a couple of nice pictures on a book that will be out of date in 3-4 years?

Ssilmath
10-09-2013, 17:32
What an incredibly cynical way of looking at it. There's more reasons than that. In addition to your 'wise' players, you have the people who've spent a whole bunch of money making a biker army, you've got people who don't like the artwork, people who just liked the other artwork more and people who wanted to buy the White Scars book but didn't have the funds available. I'm sure there are reasons even beyond those.

IcedAnimals
10-09-2013, 17:40
"white scars - least popular chapter?" Not for long.

Lightning Strike!
10-09-2013, 17:40
We're a less popular chapter, absolutely. Some factors as to why- we've never been a power-build on the table-top, we're white - which is hard to paint well, and our chapter doesn't have many 'Ooh, cool' moments during the Heresy like other chapters.

It might change once the supplement comes out, or if players find a way to abuse our Chapter Tactics. I'm not sure we'll ever catch on otherwise; from a fluff standpoint alone, anyways.

Reinholt
10-09-2013, 18:47
I would say the Scars, the Raven Guard, and the Iron Hands are all close to the bottom of the popularity list for Marines.

I have only played against a single White Scars army in my time, I've played against Raven Guard successors a few times (Raptors, to be specific), and I am working on an Iron Hands force myself. The lack of selling out for the White Scars book doesn't surprise me as a result, though I am surprised they were last. I would have thought it was Codex: Tiny Hands that would have been last. Seriously. That bionic arm is way too small on the Iron Hands guy.

UM, BA, SW, DA, IF, and Salamanders have all had their moments near the top of the list.

Rick Blaine
10-09-2013, 19:17
Or maybe it's just that their cover sucks? A white guy on foot on a white background? I bet if they had put something like this guy (http://www.danielmaghen.com/images/planches/18277-1.jpg) on the cover it would have sold out just as fast as the others.

Odin
10-09-2013, 19:18
Ah yes, painting white could certainly put a lot of people off. It just surprised me a bit, they're a chapter with a really cool and unique style, I'd have thought they'd be almost popular enough for their own codex, but I guess not.

Lord Damocles
10-09-2013, 19:22
It doesn't seem unreasonable to assume that White Scars are one of the less popular 'major' Chapters:
- They're white (thus relatively difficult to paint)
- Bikes are expensive wise
- They've never had particularly powerful special rules

I doubt that Scars players are just inherently above paying extra for limited edition codexes.

Horus38
10-09-2013, 19:22
So, all the other special edition codexes sold out ages ago...

The Iron Hands one is also still available.

Bloodknight
10-09-2013, 19:23
It's a lame cover, really. Looks like an Apothecary who forgot his gear.

Konovalev
10-09-2013, 19:35
It's a lame cover, really. Looks like an Apothecary who forgot his gear.

Codex Space Marines: Limited Has anyone seen my narthecium? edition

Odin
10-09-2013, 19:36
The Iron Hands one is also still available.

Not on my version of the GW website.


It doesn't seem unreasonable to assume that White Scars are one of the less popular 'major' Chapters:
- They're white (thus relatively difficult to paint)
- Bikes are expensive wise
- They've never had particularly powerful special rules

I doubt that Scars players are just inherently above paying extra for limited edition codexes.

But bikes are also quite expensive points wise, so you can get a fairly high points value without having to buy or paint very many models - surely a big plus for many (though the bike models are ancient and horrible).

Yeah, I wasn't genuinely suggesting that last bit.

totgeboren
10-09-2013, 19:43
I actually think there is a deeper reason, and I do think they are in fact the least popular of the original legions.
Firstly, the idea of Huns/mounted barbarians using hit-and-run tactics is not a strong theme in European mythology, even though they were a contribution factor behind the collapse of the Roman Empire.
If you think about it, we have lots of movies and stories of the old Greeks, the Romans, Crusaders and all the modern and sci-fi tropes, but notice that the Huns are never either the protagonists nor the antagonists in these stories.
Because of this (as I see it), the trope of the mounted barbarian is seldom the theme of background writers for w40k, and it is not something that inspires many people (as compared to Templars, Knights, Spartans, Gladiators, Persians, Angels, Vampires, Werewolves, Norse, WWI and WWII, Special Ops, Dragons, Cyborgs, and all the rest which are all fairly common themes in other settings).

So, yeah. That's how I see it. Nothing wrong with mounted barbarian marines. There are not many sources for inspiration to be found in our mythology though, the closest would probably be the centaurs.

Reinholt
10-09-2013, 22:12
Not on my version of the GW website.

I also still see the Iron Hands codex, and was able to throw one in a shopping cart when I tested it. So neither the IH nor the WS are sold out yet.

Avatar_exADV
10-09-2013, 22:33
There are also those rumors floating around about the White Scars being the first SM supplement - if you were a dedicated White Scars player, you might just get a regular codex plus that rather than blow your funds on the limited codex, hm?

Xerkics
10-09-2013, 22:40
Thats because they are boring, white scars - space mongols doesnt really appeal when there are so much more interesting chapters.

turtle123
11-09-2013, 06:42
I actually think there is a deeper reason, and I do think they are in fact the least popular of the original legions.
Firstly, the idea of Huns/mounted barbarians using hit-and-run tactics is not a strong theme in European mythology, even though they were a contribution factor behind the collapse of the Roman Empire.
If you think about it, we have lots of movies and stories of the old Greeks, the Romans, Crusaders and all the modern and sci-fi tropes, but notice that the Huns are never either the protagonists nor the antagonists in these stories.
Because of this (as I see it), the trope of the mounted barbarian is seldom the theme of background writers for w40k, and it is not something that inspires many people (as compared to Templars, Knights, Spartans, Gladiators, Persians, Angels, Vampires, Werewolves, Norse, WWI and WWII, Special Ops, Dragons, Cyborgs, and all the rest which are all fairly common themes in other settings).

So, yeah. That's how I see it. Nothing wrong with mounted barbarian marines. There are not many sources for inspiration to be found in our mythology though, the closest would probably be the centaurs.

Does anyone think the White Scars are less popular because the Huns/Mongols (since Jaghatai Khan (Genghis Khan) was their primarch) are of pseudo-Asian descent rather than the standard caucasian people of the 40K universe?

For me, I'm not a big fan of bikes since you need flat terrain to ride on them. If the White Scars rode jetbikes, I would find them much more interesting since there would be a much greater variety of terrain they could fight on.

Bloodknight
11-09-2013, 07:40
Does anyone think the White Scars are less popular because the Huns/Mongols (since Jaghatai Khan (Genghis Khan) was their primarch) are of pseudo-Asian descent rather than the standard caucasian people of the 40K universe?


I don't know. I know a few White Scars players, but most of them said it took them a while to actually start the army because of the cost of building one and the amount of white someone has to paint for them is a turn-off. Apparently owning an airbrush helps a lot with the decision ^^. The playstyle is very special, too.

I don't think it's racism or something like that, when the DA were still Space Indians they were still very popular.

Endobai
11-09-2013, 08:07
One of less popular for sure, but frankly if I were a WS player that (rather lame) cover wouldn't attact me to buy something like that when there are rumours about a supplement in the air.



Thats because they are boring, white scars - space mongols doesnt really appeal when there are so much more interesting chapters.

Obviously you are not a cavalry fan. The entire "mongol" theme is something less important than the cavalry vibe - something about fluidity of movement, the sudden beaty of a charge...

crandall87
11-09-2013, 11:36
I think the rumours that there was going to be or still will be a White Scars supplement could be a factor. They are probably also not as popular due to being white, and most people don't enjoy painting white. Rules wise though I think the new codex has made them a very good choice

TheBearminator
11-09-2013, 12:27
I'd expect white scars to be one of the most popular first foundings since they've now got rules that really make them stand out.

NealSmith
11-09-2013, 13:02
My "bike company" of my "crusade chapter" is White Scars. So far, there's only an attack bike squadron. :)

Dr Zoidberg
11-09-2013, 13:05
The timing of this thread is somewhat amusing to me. I've been sitting here with my new SM Codex contemplating a small, fully-mounted White Scar and/or Successor Chapter to go as an allied detachment to my homebrew Imperial Fists successor chapter. Didn't realise the Scars were so unpopular!

T10
11-09-2013, 13:16
So, all the other special edition codexes sold out ages ago, but the White Scars one is still available. Are they the least popular of the first founding chapters? Or is it just that White Scars appeal to people who don't like wasting 40 on a couple of nice pictures on a book that will be out of date in 3-4 years?

I have never made a White Scars army.

-T10

The Orange
11-09-2013, 13:35
They could use more fleshing out in the fluff to give them an actual hook. But mostly I think it's the pain of painting white, not to mention their chapter symbol, a yellow and red thunderbolt that is unfortunately reminiscent of the McDonalds arch. Overall not a very interesting looking army, even I.Fist's look better in yellow somehow.

Menthak
11-09-2013, 13:54
They could use more fleshing out in the fluff to give them an actual hook. But mostly I think it's the pain of painting white, not to mention their chapter symbol, a yellow and red thunderbolt that is unfortunately reminiscent of the McDonalds arch. Overall not a very interesting looking army, even I.Fist's look better in yellow somehow.

I can't un-see that image now.

For me it comes from the fact that they don't seem to have done much during the heresy, or afterwards. They're always doing their own thing in the background. Plus white was the primary colour for my Tau, lets just say that's a memory I'd much rather forget.

Perhaps they are the least popular of all the first founding chapters, but I don't think the least popular of all chapters. I think that award goes to the Absolvers.

childsoldier
11-09-2013, 15:10
At my gaming group last night we had a big discussion about how cool the White Scars are, with one of the lads saying he's considering starting a force. There's something very cool about the idea of the noble barbarian. But none of us particularly feel like splashing the cash on limited editions just yet.

FreyrRagnar
11-09-2013, 16:05
As for the bikes. the ravenwing for the first always did a better job at being a bike army (and with better support). and i have seen quit some RW forces. though i think that will change now. big difference now is stubborn and teleporter homer vs cheaper better bikes. (hmmmmm)
Many WS player i knew used the DA codex aswell. but again. now that will change. (even i am temted to switch now)

as for terrain. WS had alwasy (exept for the previous codex) the expert rider rule wich made the terrain not so much an option untill the hight of terren en lvl of where you could come went to be exploited, but ws are not an bike only army, so its a good army where you can mix as you like.

i guess its the painting of white and the lack of know history

brain_dead_1st
11-09-2013, 17:08
I had a 2nd founding white scars army for a few years. I wish I still had it as the new rules make them BAMF
Only problem with scars...white paint

lordreaven448
11-09-2013, 17:45
Thats because they are boring, white scars - space mongols doesnt really appeal when there are so much more interesting chapters.
I don't know. If I had desire to build a non-Chaos Marine force it would be the White scars. Mongols in Space is REALLY cool in my opinion. I would probably do an successor and call it the Sarmatians, Scythians or Roxolani. Not original names by any means but good enough.

Nubl0
11-09-2013, 17:48
I honestly think it is to do with them being white, it's not an easy scheme to paint and even then quite hard to make look good. That why alot of people I know have been put off doing them despite liking the lore and theme of them.

the_picto
11-09-2013, 18:28
Maybe it's because their shtick, lots of bikers, is already such a big part of the more visible dark angels. If you fancy an all biker list the ravenwing will probably be the more obvious choice, they have their own battle force and their special character model is actually riding a bike for a start.

corps
11-09-2013, 18:49
they always were of my favorites chapter/legion i don't like the white so i made a successor chapter of the white scars. i woud bought the limited edition but its twice the price of a normal codex.

Xerkics
12-09-2013, 01:33
I found painting raven guard black really awkward have to do lots of highlighting and shading so white must be even harder , and if you want cavalry you should run Imperial Guard they have actual cavalry dudes Tallarn raiders or something along those lines?

Poncho160
12-09-2013, 01:43
One of the reson could be that their special character, is a pain in the ### to convert to stick on a bike. Could never figure out why GW made him a walking figure and not on a bike.

Plague Lord
12-09-2013, 02:10
I actually think there is a deeper reason, and I do think they are in fact the least popular of the original legions.
Firstly, the idea of Huns/mounted barbarians using hit-and-run tactics is not a strong theme in European mythology, even though they were a contribution factor behind the collapse of the Roman Empire.
If you think about it, we have lots of movies and stories of the old Greeks, the Romans, Crusaders and all the modern and sci-fi tropes, but notice that the Huns are never either the protagonists nor the antagonists in these stories.
Because of this (as I see it), the trope of the mounted barbarian is seldom the theme of background writers for w40k, and it is not something that inspires many people (as compared to Templars, Knights, Spartans, Gladiators, Persians, Angels, Vampires, Werewolves, Norse, WWI and WWII, Special Ops, Dragons, Cyborgs, and all the rest which are all fairly common themes in other settings).

So, yeah. That's how I see it. Nothing wrong with mounted barbarian marines. There are not many sources for inspiration to be found in our mythology though, the closest would probably be the centaurs.

This depends on where you are from. Western europe didn't have much contact with the khans of Crimea but here in eastern europe (Poland, Ukraine, Russia, Litheuania and so on) we had wars with and against them and they were a constant in medieval times in eastern europe.

Friedrich von Offenbach
12-09-2013, 05:27
I actually think there is a deeper reason, and I do think they are in fact the least popular of the original legions.
Firstly, the idea of Huns/mounted barbarians using hit-and-run tactics is not a strong theme in European mythology, even though they were a contribution factor behind the collapse of the Roman Empire.
If you think about it, we have lots of movies and stories of the old Greeks, the Romans, Crusaders and all the modern and sci-fi tropes, but notice that the Huns are never either the protagonists nor the antagonists in these stories.
Because of this (as I see it), the trope of the mounted barbarian is seldom the theme of background writers for w40k, and it is not something that inspires many people (as compared to Templars, Knights, Spartans, Gladiators, Persians, Angels, Vampires, Werewolves, Norse, WWI and WWII, Special Ops, Dragons, Cyborgs, and all the rest which are all fairly common themes in other settings).

So, yeah. That's how I see it. Nothing wrong with mounted barbarian marines. There are not many sources for inspiration to be found in our mythology though, the closest would probably be the centaurs.

I think that sums up the issue


Thats because they are boring, white scars - space mongols doesnt really appeal when there are so much more interesting chapters.

And this is just further evidence. Whether the white scars background is extensive or not is probably not the number one factor (although a factor none the less), I think it's just they don't grab people like other chapters. As for painting white, definantly an issue for experienced players, but i dont think new players really care that much about the paint job and even then you don't see white scars.

HK-47
12-09-2013, 06:04
I think the main reason is that there background isn't really talked about much by really anyone. I know a few people that didn't even know that the White Scars fought in the Battle of Terra.

Fear Itself
12-09-2013, 06:09
I think the main reason is that there background isn't really talked about much by really anyone. I know a few people that didn't even know that the White Scars fought in the Battle of Terra.

That's probably because they were limited to harrying the traitor's lines and retaking a landing-station, opposed to actually defending the Emperor's palace, like the Angels and Fists.

As was mentioned in this thread previously, they simply lack any genuine 'Cooool' Heresy moments- for now, anyway.

Freman Bloodglaive
12-09-2013, 07:47
I don't know that they're unpopular, I haven't seen a White Scars army, but then I haven't seen an Imperial Fists army either.

They don't get a lot of press, and of course the last edition all the cool kids were playing Salamanders successors.

Meanwhile bikes, the main image people have of White Scars, cost quite a lot more than tactical marines. I probably wouldn't be playing a bike army except for all the cheap bikes I picked up off eBay.

Then there's painting white of course...

morvaeldd
12-09-2013, 07:49
But now they'll get their own book, and not by a bad author (unlike Salamanders for example). Also their problems hinted at in one of Garro audios will make for an interesting read. This may see their popularity rise. Of course the need to buy expensive bikes and paint a lot of white remain valid points against them. I have a soft spot for White Scars (even though I collect Salamanders), because of how they killed Angron and his Legion plus some Dark Mechanicum Titans and Fabricator General in the Horus Heresy board game I played with a friend :-)

totgeboren
12-09-2013, 08:54
This depends on where you are from. Western europe didn't have much contact with the khans of Crimea but here in eastern europe (Poland, Ukraine, Russia, Litheuania and so on) we had wars with and against them and they were a constant in medieval times in eastern europe.

Well yes, but how often do you see movies where the heroes or the villains are mounted barbarians doing hit-and-run attacks? As I know nothing of what sort of movies are produced locally in eastern Europe, I could be completely wrong, but if we look at what comes out of especially the American film industry, the theme of all the First Founding legions can be found to varying degrees in different movies. However I can't think of a single instance of any movie from the past 20 years where the huns/mongols make a strong appearance that can work as an inspiration for a WS army.

I mean, after 300 was released, lots and lots of SM armies started sporting red head crests and round storm shields for example, because the armies people make are armies that reflect what inspires them. The same goes for what people write, which is the reason why we have so little background and books themed around the WS.

This is just my theory, but I think it makes sort of sense. Though, good rules is also a factor which can break the pattern. Back during the 3.5 codex, there were a few WWII movies I think that could in part explain why the IW (with their big guns) became so popular, but mostly I think it was just that they had much better rules than anyone else. The new WS rules look pretty good, so that in itself might raise their popularity by quite a bit.

Bloodknight
12-09-2013, 09:00
how often do you see movies where the heroes or the villains are mounted barbarians doing hit-and-run attacks?

Rarely, because that's lacking a certain heroism, and 40K - and war movies - is all about the heroes and supervillains or people against all odds.

MR.Tea
12-09-2013, 15:23
I think it is matter of aesthetics...
I don't like white marines, or bike marines miniatures...

There is only one thing that will make more WS marines, and that is to make them appear awesome in future HH books...

Telemachus
12-09-2013, 15:53
Want movie inspiration for the White Scars?

Watch this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbaVEOnBIzQ)

Won't -

Make bikes any cheaper.
Make painting white any easier or
Suddenly make a White Scars conversion box with lots of cool Mongol bits and heads appear.

But it is a good movie.