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Menthak
15-09-2013, 15:54
Before I go any further, I just want to say as a non-chaos player, I have no interest in starting a whine-thread, I just want to know about the pre-4th edition chaos codex.

Basically, chaos players always say about how they've lost tons of options from 3.5 to 4th, I wanted to know what options they lost

Endobai
15-09-2013, 16:02
You might not want it, but you've started it in 3, 2, 1...


But joking aside. 3.5. provided entire sections for god worshiping legions, rules for all 9 traitor legion, huge wargear list and much flexibility which was often abused.
Plus every named, famous daemon became some lame 'generic daemon nr 239 386' instead.

Grand Master Raziel
15-09-2013, 16:06
Too much was removed to cover everything significant in a forum thread. You're better off finding a copy of 3.5 on eBay or something. I'm going to suggest closing this thread. No good can come of it.

Mozzamanx
15-09-2013, 16:06
- Veteran Skills available to the entire army, including Infiltrate, Furious Charge, Stealth, Siege Specialists etc.
- Daemon Prince did not exist as a unit. Instead, your characters could invest in Daemonic upgrades such as Strength, Resilience, Talons, Rune etc. At a certain point your Lord became so Gifted that he simply became a Prince.
- Many more options for Daemon Weapons. 4 Generic, plus 2 for each God.

- Special rules for all 9 Legions that were wildly divergent. Iron Warriors for example, gained 4 Heavy Support slots and increased access to Obliterators at the expense of the more Chaotic aspects. Alternatively, World Eaters recieved free Champions for following Khorne's holy number of 8 along with increased access to Berzerkers. Emperors Children had the ability to bolt Sonic weaponry to their vehicles or Terminators. Alpha Legion were the only one with access to Cultists.
- God-specific Armouries. Khorne had options for FNP, more axes, extra Rage upgrades etc. Tzeentch might provide mortal sorcerer acolytes or Inferno Bolts as a general upgrade.
- Potentially a negative, there was no difference between 'Mark of Khorne' and 'Berzerker' for example. This meant that your Terminators, Lords etc. were actually Cult units and as such did not have this weird disconnect where your Veterans are less zealous than your line troopers.
- Daemons were included as a core component of the book and as such did not require an Ally, and had much more involvement with the army. Marines summoned them to the battlefield where they went to town. Admittedly I prefer having a much fuller book of variety, where the Daemons now justify a full book.

-EDIT: Also, Chosen were chosen. Forget the current book where they are glorified Plasma goons. In 3.5 they were a unit of Champions to shake the world. Mixed Power and Terminator armour, like the current Wolfguard. Fancy upgrading them all to S5/T5/W2 monsters on Juggernauts? Sure thing! How about Infiltrating Daemonic-Serpent speed dudes with Daemon Weapons? You can, but it'll cost you...

Of course at the time, so many upgrades were impossible to balance and so expect a crowd of people claiming it was broken. In truth it was, but that doesn't justify ripping put everything.

Especially since the current book is still broken.

Shibboleth
15-09-2013, 16:12
I liked customising my Lords. There was heaps of wargear, and it was back in the days before Daemon Princes had to be Monstrous Creatures - there was a points threshold for whether or not he was considered a Daemon Prince (about 100 or 150?)and you could choose whether or not he had the gift of monstrous creature size or not.
Also Lords could take a Retinue.
My Iron Warriors could take Basilisks, and had a 4th Heavy slot, but lost an Assault slot.
I miss Pete Haines.

Lord Damocles
15-09-2013, 18:03
I miss Pete Haines.
All players of Iron Warriors armies do.

Imperial Fist players... not so much...

Ssilmath
15-09-2013, 18:26
Ok, gonna try to tackle this question as impartially as possible. Please keep in mind that the game is very different now, so some things that seem completely tame now were over the top then. This is not exhaustive, as that would be a pretty extensive task.

Armory:
Standard weapons were mostly the same, but no combi-plasma and Independent Characters paid a lot more (25 points for a lightning claw, 15 points for a power weapon while squad champions paid 15 and 10 respectively)
Lost Chaos Hounds (Think Fenrisian Wolves), Spiky Bits (Reroll a miss in combat), Personal Icon (For summoning Daemons) and Teleport Homer (For Terminators). Gained Sigil of Corruption, Combat Familiars and Spell Familiars, Dimensional Key, Ichor Blood and Scrolls of Magnus.
Lost entire Daemonic Gifts section. Gifts included 2+ armor saves, extra wounds, extra strength, Wings, , Eternal Warrior and the like. The only thing that remains is Aura of Dark Glory and Jump Packs (Needed Daemonic Flight)
Lost entire Veteran Skills section, though some were rolled into Marks/Banners. Ranged from Furious Charge to Tank Hunters.
There were 4 generic Daemon Weapons. One ignored Invulnerable Saves (And could be taken by a Lord with the Daemonic Stature gift which made him a Monstrous Creature), one gave +2 Strength, one was a power weapon that also shot a S4 AP3 Template weapon while the last was a S6 AP3 Assault 2 bolter. Daemon weapons also did not provide extra attacks, and if you killed a model you had to pass a leadership check or suffer Perils of the Warp.
Vehicle Armory was similar, included upgrades to AV, extra shooting attacks at any enemy within 3 inches, auto repairing systems and possession making a vehicle unable to transport units.

Units:
HQ -
Lords, Lieutenants and Greater Daemons. Lords could purchase 150 points of wargear total, with 100 points able to be used on Daemonic Gifts. 50 points of Daemonic Gifts made him a Daemon Prince. Any other Characters could only buy 75 points of wargear, 50 points able to be used on Gifts.

Elites - Chosen were limited in number based on size of the game, and could form at most a retinue for a Lord and a single Elites unit. Were incredibly customizable, having access to the entire armory if upgraded to a champion (And any number could be) and one able to upgrade to a Sorcerer.
Possessed, aside from hideous models, were similar to the current unit. The big difference was that rather than random capabilities, they instead all bought a Daemonic Gift and could get a champion with access to the armory.
Obliterators were similar in form and function, but only one squad could be taken per army.

Troops -
Chaos Marines were a bit more expensive and did not come with grenades at all. Points were a bit different for weapons, and the squad could buy veteran skills. No option for Ubergrit. If a unit bought a Mark, they became cult units and moved to Elites unless your Lord had the same Mark.
Daemon Packs were just the normal Lesser Daemons. Nurglings were a separate troops choice.

Fast Attack -
Raptors had Hit and Run, were 29 points a model and only a single squad could be taken.
Bikers were 34 points a pop, had either a pistol or a close combat weapon, but got an extra attack.
Flesh Hounds, Screamers and Furies were in this section as well. Screamers were required to Hit and Run.

Heavy Support -
Havocs were almost the same, but weapon prices were more expensive and the unit could buy veteran skills.
Predators, Dreadnoughts, Land Raiders and Defilers rounded out the list.

And then the part everybody wants to see come back. Legions:

Alpha Legion - Exclusive access to cultists, who were the only ones who could take Daemon summoning Icons. Had to choose one of three doctrines for each unit of cultists (Infiltrate and either Move through cover, Furious Charge or Siege Specialists). Legionaries could only have the Mark of Chaos Undivided (reroll failed morale checks) and the whole army could purchase Infiltration at 1 point per model, 5 per independent character.

Iron Warriors - Could only have the Mark of Chaos Undivided. No daemons beyond Daemon Princes and Possessed. Siege Specialist (+1 strength against bunkers, Fearless inside fortifications) veteran skill for free. No restriction on number of Obliterators. 4 Heavy Support slots, 1 Fast Attack. Could purchase up to 1 Basilisk and 1 Vindicator. Could purchase Servo Arms for 30 points.

Night Lords - Could not use Daemons other than Furies, but still had Daemon Princes and Possessed. Could only take Chaos Undivided. Night Vision for free, could purchase Stealth for 1 point per model, 5 per character. 4 Fast attack slots, 1 Heavy Support. No restriction on number of Raptors.

Word Bearers - Only Chaos Undivided. Can use any daemons. HQ's could be dark Apostles, buying an Accursed Crozius (Damon Weapon, 4++ save) for 40 points and Demagogue (6" Fearless Bubble) for 20 points. Could give up other FOC slots for additional Troops choices, to facilitate lots of daemon packs.

Black Legion - Nothing other than having access to Abaddon.

Book of Khorne - Units became Berzerkers (+1 attack, Fearless, must charge, only ranged upgrade are Plasma Pistols, may take Chainaxes). Sometimes had to chase after enemy units with no control from player. Extensive armory focused on melee, getting to melee and antipsyker. If entire army is marked with Khorne, can be World Eaters. Get free champions if squad is multiple of 8. (Champions are 13 points extra for most squads). May not have Raptors or Havocs.

Book of Nurgle - Units become Plague Marines (+1 toughness, no heavy weapons, True Grit) Armory focused on spreading disease, minor psychic powers that mostly debuff. If entire army is marked Nurgle, can be Death Guard. Get free Champions if squad is multiple of 7, Rhinos take up fast attack slots after the first 2 are purchased. May not have Bikes or Raptors.

Book of Slaanesh - Units become Noise Marines (Enemy Initiative reduced by 1, can take Sonic Weaponry on infantry) Armory was all over the place, from combat drugs to stopping charges to Feel no Pain. Sonic Weaponry was far less devastating, with AP4 being the best and none of it ignoring cover. Minor Psychic powers mostly debuffed, but included Siren which prevented the model from being shot or charged. If entire army was marked Slaanesh, could be Emperor's Children. Free Champion if squad is multiple of 6, could upgrade Dreadnoughts and Predators with Sonic Weaponry. May not take Raptors.

Book of Tzeentch - Units become Rubrics (+1 wound, Slow and Purposeful, no Veteran Skills). Independent Characters, Chosen, Possessed and Champions instead are Sorcerers. Normal CSM squads could upgrade to Terminators and move to the Elites section. Armory focuses on debuff and buffing up Psychic powers/is psychic powers. Psychic powers all over the place, from denying charges to standard flamer. If entire army is marked with Tzeentch, may be Thousand Sons. Free champion if unit is multiple of 9. May not take Bikes, Raptors or Havocs.

So there you have it, a (hopefully) impartial breakdown of 3.5. There's a lot of feelings about it, but it's hard to deny that the book was just more interesting than what we have now, regardless of broken lists or interpretations of fluff.

Ironbone
15-09-2013, 19:49
There's a lot of feelings about it, but it's hard to deny that the book was just more interesting than what we have now
Well, with so many good options, none other codex could bring that many various army lits. Especialy with 4th ed codex bringing basicly one useful list ( double lash, oblits + termies + plags/zerkers ), and 6th ed not being a lot better ( few useful lists, but every one with Baldrake. Or two. Or three. Or four :shifty: ).


regardless of broken lists or interpretations of fluff.
Good thing both 3.5 and 4th ed codex is history now :D.

Voss
15-09-2013, 20:23
So there you have it, a (hopefully) impartial breakdown of 3.5. There's a lot of feelings about it, but it's hard to deny that the book was just more interesting than what we have now, regardless of broken lists or interpretations of fluff.

I'll deny that, all day. All I ever saw out of it was the same cookie cutter lists. For all the supposedly 'interesting' stuff in it, I never saw any of it, mostly just iron warrior spam lists. Well Black Primer Warriors spam lists, anyway.

Scammel
15-09-2013, 21:09
However people might have utilised the book was up to them, I loved playing pure Sons. The book itself was much, much more diverse than the following pair.

Grndhog89
15-09-2013, 21:27
Yknow, he did say all old chaos editions. I am not old enough myself to have experienced them; but what about Codex: CSM 3.0 and Codex: Chaos 2nd edition? Too much of the focus seems to be on 3.5 when it wasn't the only old iteration of Chaos/Chaos Space Marines.

Ssilmath
15-09-2013, 22:43
Going off of the big 3.0 rulebook...

Wargear: CCW, Power Weapon, Power Fist, Plasma Pistol, Bolter

HQ -
Lords - May take 2 wargear options, can have Juggernaught of Khorne, Steed of Slaanesh or Disc of Tzeentch. Otherwise may take Terminator armor.

Sorcerer - May take 2 wargear options. Has Str 9, AP2 Heavy 1 psychic power.

Daemon Prince - 12 inch charge, 5++ Save, S5 T4 W3 A3

Greater Daemons - Pretty much as we know them.

Retinue - Normal CSM, can upgrade to Champions or Terminators, can take 2 ranged weapons, Champions get 1 wargear choice.

Elite -
Veterans - Same as retinue but no Terminators, have Infiltrate.

Khorne Berzerkers - +1 attack over normal CSM, have Pistol and CCW
Plague Marines - +1 toughness, only special weapons
Thousand Sons - +1 wound, no upgrade options

Troops -
Chaos Marines - Still unchanged, but 15 points each
Daemon Packs - No differentiation between gods, MEQ statline with 2 attacks, no armor, 5++
Nurglings - Same as above

Fast Attack -
Daemonic Beasts - Cavalry, 5++ save
Chaos Bikers - 35 points, no options, Bolt Pistol and CCW

Heavy Support -
Noise Marines - 3 models can have Blastmasters (Plasma Cannon) or Doom Siren (Heavy Flamer). Rest have Sonic Blasters (Storm Bolter)
Havocs - can only take Autocannon, Heavy Bolter, Missile Launcher, Lascannon
Dreadnought - 75 points, pretty much what we have now minus the crazy
Predator and Land Raider - Pretty much the same as now

For second edition, all I have possession of is Codex Imperialis and Wargear. Don't have Slaves to Darkness nor Lost and the Damned.

Daemons -
Khorne - Bloodthirstsers, Bloodletters, Flesh Hounds, Juggernaughts
Slaanesh - Keeper of Secrets, Daemonettes, Fiends, Steeds
Nurgle - Great Unclean Ones, Nurglings, Plaguebearers, Beasts
Tzeentch - Lord of Change, Flamers, Horrors, Discs

CSM - Marines, Champions, Heroes, Mighty Heroes
Champions of Nurgle got +1 toughness, Champions of Slaanesh immune to psychology, Champion of Khorne had a 2+ save and Frenzy, Champion of Tzeentch had a 4+ Deny the Witch.

Cultist - Cultists, Cult Champion, Cult Hero, Cult Major Hero, Psyker, Psyker Champion, Master Psyker, Psyker Lord

Beastmen - Beastman, Champion, Hero, Major Hero.

No points, just stats and fluff. Somebody with more knowledge of 2nd can provide more info.

Thud
16-09-2013, 00:04
I'll deny that, all day. All I ever saw out of it was the same cookie cutter lists. For all the supposedly 'interesting' stuff in it, I never saw any of it, mostly just iron warrior spam lists. Well Black Primer Warriors spam lists, anyway.

Yup. Variety? Hah! It was Iron Warriors and nothing else. Thousand Sons still sucked and everything else was a crappier version of Iron Warriors.

Did I mention Iron Warriors and Iron Warriors?

Ssilmath
16-09-2013, 00:11
Yup. Variety? Hah! It was Iron Warriors and nothing else. Thousand Sons still sucked and everything else was a crappier version of Iron Warriors.

Did I mention Iron Warriors and Iron Warriors?

I didn't say variety in practice, but variety of options. As is usual for this game, people work out the 10% worth taking and refuse to take anything else. Though I saw more Alpha Legion than Iron Warriors, my Tau and Guard lost quite a few games on turn 2.

Scribe of Khorne
16-09-2013, 00:46
Yup. Variety? Hah! It was Iron Warriors and nothing else. Thousand Sons still sucked and everything else was a crappier version of Iron Warriors.

Did I mention Iron Warriors and Iron Warriors?

I ran hordes of berzerkers, with Khorne daemons, and it was fun...

Grndhog89
16-09-2013, 01:15
I ran hordes of berzerkers, with Khorne daemons, and it was fun...

You can still do the same......

ChaosReigns
16-09-2013, 01:22
Incidentally I ran straight World Eaters back in 3.5 as well, when I started playing. What actually drew me into 40k in the first place was the tremendous variety of sub-factions beneath the wider umbrella of Chaos. Afterwards what caught my eye was the lore and style of the Traitor Legions - all the different ways you could kit out your characters, the myriads of options. Even though I played mono-Khorne until the 4th Edition codex came out, I never actually settled into a single build for my army. I was constantly tweaking, trying new strategies, testing new unit combinations and wargear.

That said the book was very much open to abuse, but even so, 40k isn't exactly what one might call an impeccably balanced game even today.

EDIT: You can run Khorne Berzerker hordes still (actually I've tried) and while I don't think that Khorne Berzerkers are necessarily as terrible and useless as people claim, they're decidedly not a great unit either, particularly against my usual opponent who plays a mixture of Space Marines and Imperial Guard. Slogging on foot they're too slow, and actually not all that difficult to kill, particularly when your opponent is throwing two orbital bombardments, three battle cannon shots and a whole whack load of AP3 Sternguard rounds and plasma cannon/gun shots in your direction the minute you have the temerity to step out of cover. So yeah, you can definitely run a Berzerker horde, but it's not going to win you any games, even friendly ones. Also, fun is not the word I would use to describe that situation. :p

Voss
16-09-2013, 02:15
However people might have utilised the book was up to them, I loved playing pure Sons. The book itself was much, much more diverse than the following pair.
:eek: So many years on, that is the first time I ever heard anyone say anything positive about the thousand sons in that book. I thought the whining was literally endless.


I didn't say variety in practice, but variety of options. As is usual for this game, people work out the 10% worth taking and refuse to take anything else. Though I saw more Alpha Legion than Iron Warriors, my Tau and Guard lost quite a few games on turn 2.
If it doesn't happen in practice, theory is meaningless. :evilgrin:
I'd apologize for that, but I've been up to my ears in meaningless theory for the last year from people who couldn't work their way out of a paper bag.


No points, just stats and fluff. Somebody with more knowledge of 2nd can provide more info.
Stats and whatnot get more and more meaningless as you get back into 2nd edition. It was the era that started off with WS 5 Blood Claws, after all, at around 3x their current points value.

Ssilmath
16-09-2013, 02:26
If it doesn't happen in practice, theory is meaningless. :evilgrin:
I'd apologize for that, but I've been up to my ears in meaningless theory for the last year from people who couldn't work their way out of a paper bag.

I'll agree with you on this, unless I'm one of those people. If that is the case, then you have only my rage sir.:p

Lothlanathorian
16-09-2013, 04:18
Yup. Variety? Hah! It was Iron Warriors and nothing else. Thousand Sons still sucked and everything else was a crappier version of Iron Warriors.

Did I mention Iron Warriors and Iron Warriors?

I never met any Iron Warriors players and there were several Chaos players in my FLGS. I played a rather ridiculous Khornate army, there was a Thousand Sons player, two Night Lords players and an Emperor's Children player. We had a fairly large amount of players, too (something like 40-50 regular guys plus randoms). EDIT: And I don't know how I forget my bestie, but, he played Word Bearers. Had since the first Chaos book (as I had with Berzerkers).

Scribe of Khorne
16-09-2013, 04:43
You can still do the same......

You could yes. Doesnt mean that it works the same as it once did, nor that it 'fits' in the game of 6th edition, nor does it mean that the list is as cohesive, and *gasp* Legion driven as it once could be.

We dont need to do this again anyway, I'm quitting 40K and playing 30K now, FW know how to release Legion rules for everyone, not just the favored Space Marines loyalists.

chrisloomis13
16-09-2013, 05:11
3.0 was when I started playing and I played strict thousand sons, they were great. As mentioned they did have 2 wounds. Not mentioned is they had no invulnerable save or inferno bolts, but they were immune to all shooting S4 and less. This was pre-Tau, and even once they were introduced, that was 1 army with small arms that could shoot at you.

Also, white dwarf had the Index Astartes articles that introduced new rules, which made Thousand Sons better. Free aspiring sorcerer upgrade (because it wasn't forced on you) if your squad number 9 (sacred number) and possessed always had daemonic speed (move 12") so were not random and a great counter assault unit.

Those IA articles were also the beginning of the Iron Warriors everyone is crying about. With 4 heavy slots, basilisks, vindis (they were not in Chaos dex at this point), and 0-1 restriction was removed from Obliterators.

Funny enough, I'll agree 3.5 was powerful and flexible, but it actually upset me as Thousand sons lost a wound and lost immunity to small arms fire and instead received a 4++ and AP3 bolters. They still haven't recovered from this and I stopped playing for a bit. I now play undivided and refuse to pigeon hole myself, b/c new codexes can ruin your favorite army. How many Emperor's Children armies have sonic weaponry mounted on termis, dreads, and preds?

Ssilmath
16-09-2013, 05:15
Funny enough, I'll agree 3.5 was powerful and flexible, but it actually upset me as Thousand sons lost a wound and lost immunity to small arms fire and instead received a 4++ and AP3 bolters.

This happened in 4th, not 3.5.


How many Emperor's Children armies have sonic weaponry mounted on termis, dreads, and preds?

And they can still use them, just not with the sonic weaponry. I doubt anybody would object to them being used as Autocannons, Lascannons, or whatever the upgrades available are.

thanoson
16-09-2013, 05:18
Nurgle and Slaanesh have been my go to armies for 40k even back then. Yes, there were Iron Warrior list. However, there were all chaos flavors at my local shops. Hell, bring me back my noise marines that made psykers heads explode within 24" if they tried using a psi power on a 4+.

The Red Pilgrim
16-09-2013, 05:52
This thread was surprisingly tame.. this can't be Warseer..

Losing Command
16-09-2013, 06:10
The few times I've played against the 3.5 codex I remember the insane amount of customizability you had. It almost sounded like you could have your chaos lord have a different colour on every toe-nail and have a rule representing it :p Also saw quite some weird models with lots of greenstuff on them to represent all the mutations, and Apha legions plasmagun-spamlists that rapid-fired you whole army away on turn 1. What I remember mostly was that chainaxes never allowed a armoursave better than 4+ to be taken against them. I can understand that Chaosplayers are missing that insane amount of customization, the current book is duller than the marine codex :shifty:

Scribe of Khorne
16-09-2013, 06:13
This thread was surprisingly tame.. this can't be Warseer..

Its gotten to the point really where there are better ways to spend time. If your of the mind that the current situation (GW/40K) is unjust, you can either accept it, house rule it, count as, or move on.

If you are of the mind that the current situation is just, you have no concept of equality or balance in terms of faction attention and care.

Instead of dumping more and more time (and money) into that product. There are simply better uses for both of those finite resources. :D

daveNYC
16-09-2013, 12:51
One thing that hasn't been brought up is the artwork. The 3.5 codex had some pretty solid pictures, especially for the cult legion pages.
Others have mentioned this, but the inclusion of daemons in the book was pretty huge. Bonus fun fact was greater daemons weren't just summoned on to the battlefield, they actually possessed one of your characters in order to manifest (and they had rules for what would happen if their target vessel was killed before they showed up).

Latro_
16-09-2013, 13:43
I'm still in a mood that bezerkers dont have a 2+ save like in 2ed

Harwammer
16-09-2013, 15:09
I'm still in a mood that bezerkers dont have a 2+ save like in 2ed

I'm not sure if this is genuine or parody of the angst gamers show at the constant shift in how the marks are represented across the editions (sometimes used as an excuse to codex hop).

For clarification, did you proxy your zerkers as dante+sanguinary guard in 5th as they better represented the 2+ save zerkers than the then csm book did? :D

Poseidal
16-09-2013, 15:43
Khorne (in fantasy as well) used to be all about Chaos Armour, hence 2+ saves and compulsory Chaos Armour on Warriors (normal Warriors had Heavy Armour IIRC).

Fingers
16-09-2013, 16:14
You can still do the same......

except the fun part ;)

Played 3k SW vs 3k Chaos/Daemon/Guard this weekend. Game was fairly close but we (SW lost in the end). The sad part was that the Khorne player (berserkers, skarbrand, bloodletters, KL on Jug, 2 predators, Khorne DP) was utterly annihilated on the way to us. The berserkers never made combat losing both tanks turn 1 to missiles/quad cannon, the DP was killed after blowing up a Vindi by plasma and bolters turn 2, Skarbrand was killed by my unit of LFangs with Missile Launchers and the RP with a storm bolter (sb kill for the win!) turn 3 and both his tanks were blown up in turns 2 and 3, leaving his Khorne Lord with 1 wound left on the board. The stuff that decimated our forces? 5 Oblits, a Hell Drake, and the Valkyrie.

IMHO it looks like a good chaos codex would be something in between what we have now, and 3.5. Something flavorful but not overpowered.

Latro_
16-09-2013, 16:16
I'm not sure if this is genuine or parody of the angst gamers show at the constant shift in how the marks are represented across the editions (sometimes used as an excuse to codex hop).

For clarification, did you proxy your zerkers as dante+sanguinary guard in 5th as they better represented the 2+ save zerkers than the then csm book did? :D

ofc not being serious lol!

I didnt play chaos back then, it was all about wolf guard terminators with nothing but assault cannons an cyclone missile launchers

AdamR
16-09-2013, 16:18
If you are of the mind that the current situation is just, you have no concept of equality or balance in terms of faction attention and care.



You're not looking at the big picture - back in 3.5 it was a bad time to be playing anything other than csm (alright, maybe craftworld eldar), so its just swings 'n roundabouts - seems pretty balanced to me!

For example - considering the legion detail that CSM 3.5 had, I was, at the time, really looking forward to the 4th ed Space Marines codex, thinking it would have the same level of detail - was I disappointed? A bit, but what're you gonna do?

Also, back then I never even considered using the CSM codex for my loyalists - even though my army was pre heresy Deathguard based off the old IA Garro blurb. Its funny how expectations change.

For mankind
16-09-2013, 16:52
Mh 3.5.:

Played against it in 4th edition, befor the 4 Edition Chaso Marines Codex, never played against Iron Warriors, but they (IW) were winnig most of the local turnies at the time.

I played mostly against thousand sons, and alpha Legion, but what really was outstanding were the Chaos Superman - basically a Chaos General, or Sorcerer, with so much equitment and Demonic gifts, that they were competing with a Land Raider point wise, and had everything boosted as far as possible, 2+ Armor, T 5, S 5+, 4+ Inv. and a metric ton of special rules and unique strange weapons.

Whenever you wanted to know something in detail about the rules, even the people who played chaos needed, 5-15 minutes to find all the pages, over whitch the rules for the modell itself and its equitment were spread out. The amount of options was impressiv, but the lay out of the book was a nightmare!

On a side note:
Late I bought my own chaos marine codex, because I started playing the Lost and the Damnd, or whatever their name in english is. It was shirt list from the eye of terror campaing codex, whitch was supported by the chaos dex, and the IG.

And thats what I really miss, the hordes of mutants flowing over the battelfield......
But maybe they will be back, with chaos supplements there is still hope, yes I know minimal to no hope.

But the Legions have a realistic chance of coming back in their old glory, with new supplements.

By the way, a way to describe the 3.5 Chaos Marine Codex is to say, it was the chaos marines 6 ed. book, merged with 5-10 supplemnts.

ReveredChaplainDrake
16-09-2013, 18:01
Where I played, CSM players always featured some of the more creative lists, due to the ridiculous amounts of options the book had. Combined with the Chapter Traits on the loyalist side of the fence at the start of 4th, and it was a pretty good time to wear power armor, and there were people doing cross-codex armies in both directions. (Pre-heresy Death Guard and black-rage-bound Blood Angels were common favorites.) Back in the day, I even had a doppelganger Black Templars army built with the Word Bearers army. I had CSM as Initiates, Daemonettes as Neophyes, a Lieutenant with the Darkblade as the EC, bikes, Oblits as Terminators, Chosen as Sword Brethren, a Defiler as a Dreadnought, and a Dark Apostle as the doppelganger Master of Sanctity.

I don't quite remember seeing Iron Warriors ruin the game back in the day, nor did their existence as a head-and-shoulders better option stifle anyone's creativity. After all, if you absolutely, positively had to have the most broken, unfair, poorly-balanced army in the entire game, you had Necrons. CSM (and to a lesser extent Tyranids, both of whom had HQs which you could basically mod their statlines) was the army you went to when you needed a break from the boredom.

Carlosophy
16-09-2013, 18:08
The 3.5 Chaos Book represents the ultimate GW sanction between competitive players and fluff players. The book got abused to pieces by the competitive WAAC players and the rest of us were made to suffer.

They should have just tidied the book up and put a large footnote on the appendices stating they were illegal in tournament play.

I have nothing but pity for chaos players as my Dad has played as them since 1992 and the madcap armies he used to put together always kept my Eldar on their toes. Oh the glorious days of 10 Tzeentch sorcerers all flying around on discs and firing bolts of change all over the place.

I don't want to start a flame war but you know who to blame.

skorczeny
16-09-2013, 18:24
No comments on second edition chaos codex? Just off the top of my head (w/o getting into fundamental game changes of 2nd to 3rd)...

- Special character demon princes w/ stats above 10!
- Probably 90% of the current chaos daemons range
- Beastmen

Going from chaos 2.0 to chaos 3.0 was rough... After that everything from 3.5 to 6 has brought very few changes for me personally because: black legion.

silashand
16-09-2013, 21:35
The only reason people hated Iron Warriors at the time was because they could get four heavy slots. With 6th edition and allies anyone can do it now and better.

As for the assumption that Iron Warriors were the only ones seen, that may be true of some tournaments, but where I gamed at the time had the full gamut of lists (Alpha Legion, Word Bearers, Thousand Sons, Night Lords, World Eaters and a Black Legion (basic dex) player). I personally had AL and TS and they were really fun lists to play even if I didn't win all that often with them.

BrainFireBob
16-09-2013, 22:07
The only reason people hated Iron Warriors at the time was because they could get four heavy slots. With 6th edition and allies anyone can do it now and better.

As for the assumption that Iron Warriors were the only ones seen, that may be true of some tournaments, but where I gamed at the time had the full gamut of lists (Alpha Legion, Word Bearers, Thousand Sons, Night Lords, World Eaters and a Black Legion (basic dex) player). I personally had AL and TS and they were really fun lists to play even if I didn't win all that often with them.

Um, not entirely. You had 4 HS choices, Obliterators were Elite (and not 0-1, which they were for every other Chaos army), and you could stuff in Tank Hunting Las/Plas squads with a Daemon Prince with Flight, Stature, and Dread Axe at 2k.

That Daemon Prince, and the Siren Prince, summed up the problems with the 'dex to me.

Daemonic Stature meant your attacks ignored armor saves and were Str and T 6. The Dreadaxe was a Daemon weapon (As I recall, there weren't mastery tests) that ignored invulnerable saves. Hence, no saves at all. This kind of wargear-driven synergy was common in the codex.

To sum for the newbies:

In 3.5, you had Veteran Skills, Marks, Mark-specific wargear, Daemonic Gifts, and regular wargear- these items made up the armory. Items at the time followed a two-cost paradigm: Cost 1 for independent characters (always more), cost 2 for units (Did not vary by unit type).

Vet Skills were things like Tank Hunter, or Furious Charge. Unmarked units could buy as many as they wanted, at a price per model cost. Marked units could only buy 1. For instance, for 2 points/model you could buy any unit with access to Veteran skills Tank Hunters. Tank hunting autocannon Havocs were popular. So were Furious Charging Infiltrating units.

Daemonic gifts were things like Daemonic Armor (2+ save), Daemonic Flight (Move like Jump infantry), etc. You were a Daemon Prince if you had more than 50% of the possible number of points invested in Daemonic gifts.

Each Chaos god had two Daemon weapons and some unique wargear. For example, Berzerkers could buy Khornate Axes (all armor saves better than 4+ were treated as 4+). This cost 1 pt per model. Collars of Khorne meant you were immune to Psyker powers on, as I recall, a 2+.

Aside from Khorne, each god had its own major and minor psyker powers. Major powers were purchased. Minor powers, you purchased a roll on a table. Each roll was 15 pts. (At the time, wargear was restricted by point totals). Slaanesh had a minor psyker power called "Siren"- it was 6 on the table. If you passed your psyker test, you could not be targetted by shooting or close combat attacks until the start of your next turn, when you could cast Siren again. People would buy 6 or 7 rolls on that table to nearly ensure getting Siren on their Daemon Prince.

Etc. There were a number of point allocation restrictions- illegal combinations (too many points) were common.

The "additional" 4 undivided Legions were each given special wargear and/or Vet skills and/or units. Word Bearers, for instance, gained the Dark Apostle- a Chaos chaplain who could make units within 6" Fearless and had a 4++. They also could take all four marks of Daemon- normally, you were restricted to Daemons sharing the mark of your HQ. Alpha Legion had cult units that could buy Vet Skills. Night Lords received Night Fighting and Stealth vet skills for free, in addition to anything else (And four FA at the cost of 2 HS).

The four cult units had "sacred numbers." You received the Sarge upgrade for free if your squads were in multiples of your god's sacred number- a not inconsiderable saving over 4-5 squads.

Daemons could charge after Deep Strike. They did not scatter within 6" of an icon. Icons could be bought for any squad.

If you had a Greater Daemon, you nominated a model and rolled each turn to see if they were possessed. You could buy wargear that let you re-roll the result, and until possessed, that model fought with the strength characteristic of the Greater Daemon.

Essentially, if that book had never existed, there has been an unbroken stream of development and improvement from the Red Book until the current book. The book that replaced 3.5 was a step forward from the Red Book, but many players are still upset about 3.5- I once heard someone say that it was the perfect book, because you could do anything anyone else could do but better. (ie, build a shooting army that could outshoot any other army, build a close combat army that could out-assault any other army). Didn't realize that meant the codex was fundamentally broken- its theme was "better than everyone else at everything without drawbacks!"

You will, of course, recognize much of this. Many of those who say "Balancing the Legions is easy" simply regurgitate 3.5.

And that is the difference.

Ironbone
16-09-2013, 22:51
Tank hunting autocannon Havocs were popular.
Oh, yes they were :shifty: . I remeber one game with Vlad ( then, one of best players in my country ), with his IW + kroot against my armoured company. His (single!) havocs poped one my Leman russ tank after another. He tabled me by 3rd turn.


Many of those who say "Balancing the Legions is easy" simply regurgitate 3.5.

Yes, so many older CSM players still miss 3.5 codex. Pah, for me its just "we were so IMBA and we want it back" :eyebrows::shifty:.

malisteen
17-09-2013, 01:18
It's not about power. After all, between the lash prince in 4e and the drake in 6e, its notmlike the subsequent books were without abuse. Its about options, personalization, and personality, which have just been lacking since then.

Ssilmath
17-09-2013, 01:21
It's not about power. After all, between the lash prince in 4e and the drake in 6e, its notmlike the subsequent books were without abuse. Its about options, personalization, and personality, which have just been lacking since then.

Except you never see Khornate players asking for the 1 in 6 chance that their squads go chasing off after the closest enemy, even though that is full of 'personality' and 'flavor', now do you?

Grndhog89
17-09-2013, 01:23
Except you never see Khornate players asking for the 1 in 6 chance that their squads go chasing off after the closest enemy, even though that is full of 'personality' and 'flavor', now do you?

Yknow, I miss that rule, and the Blood Angels' loyalist version of that rule.

MOMUS
17-09-2013, 02:02
I miss doomrider <3

lordreaven448
17-09-2013, 02:47
The only good that came from 3.5 getting the axe was Daemons became their own army. 3.5 had alot of customizing, but you could not run a Daemon only force without some Marines to summon you. That also meant Daemons got (or had re-introduced) units like Bloodcrushers, interesting Characters (Skulltaker, Masque, Epidemus) while also having a unique flavour.

Ofcourse the book wasn't perfect, in between the Daemonic assault rule being bad while Loyalist Marines stole the rule and made it better because a certain writer decided Marines were better than ****** daemons in deepstriking.....*rage mode off*..... and ofcourse horrible internal balance, and insane points costs (Bloodletters being 16pts a guy was STUPID when taking into account mandatory deepstrike made them prone to being shot and mishaps).

The current codex really makes Daemons feel unique. My only wish was Phil and Robin proof read a bit more and left some points and stats alone (Bloodcrusher would be fine if it stayed T5) while checking up regularly with Ward while he translated the rules to Fantasy (he did an alright job, but it could have been way better).

Now, I will say I wouldn't mind if Daemons got merged back with Warriors of Chaos/Chaos Space Marines under the condition we still get to run Mono-Daemons and keep most of our rules. Fantasy isn't that big of a deal in that regard as Hordes of Chaos was able to run Mono-Daemons well enough to avoid serious complaint. Now for CSM's on the other hand, it was a different story. Daemons were either support or not taken at all. You could do the Daemon bomb but that was it as far as Mono-Daemons went. Also the combo Kits GW could make would be crazy. Khorne Berzerker Juggernaut Cavalry, Seeker Marine cav, Plague Marines riding Rot Flies, Thousand Son Sorcerers riding Burning Chariots, Flesh Hounds with Marine handlers, Furies led by a Raptor Sergeant etc.......... I don't mind having my army separate and I wouldn't my army being merged aslong as I get to use it.

Scribe of Khorne
17-09-2013, 05:49
Except you never see Khornate players asking for the 1 in 6 chance that their squads go chasing off after the closest enemy, even though that is full of 'personality' and 'flavor', now do you?

No, you see requests for a consistent rule set, or theme, that they can apply across the whole army that lines up with the Chaos Legions. Exactly what we where told over and over would be 'too hard to do in one book' that SM got.

This kind of ******** is the ENTIRE reason these threads suck time after time after time.

"CSM just want to be MEQ+1"
"CSM just want to be the next Grey Knights"
"CSM just want to be broken, like IW in 3.5"
"CSM are just power gamers, unsatisfied with the power of their list"

Over and over and over you all trot out the same tired statements, when thats blatantly false, but those who will TELL YOU you are are full of **** are getting tired of feeling the need to defend their position.

Review the forge world Night Lord rules. Tell me they are broken.

****, review the 3.5 Night Lord rules. Broken?

I am so so sorry that a Daemon Prince could deny you saves. I am OH SO SORRY a chain axe took your save to a 4+, while I had to charge any which way.

It will never be good enough, and the position of fans of the Legion style will never find support in the wider population because its far too easy for people to remember that they may have lost some games, and to find fault in a book instead of taking any kind of ownership themselves.

Sorry Siren Princes sucked.
Sorry Lash Princes sucked.
Sorry Heldrakes suck.

News flash, this game fails at balance, and unless you run that top book that is being abused, you get to have an excuse when you lose.

From the bottom of my heart, sorry my fellow players that you had to endure the shame of losing to CSM. It wont happen for much longer, a few more iterations on Gav's great work and all we will have left is Warp Talons and Mutilators.

Enjoy the waves of space marines though, nice fluffy rule set there to play with.

Ssilmath
17-09-2013, 06:08
Oh, drop your self righteousness Scribe. People rant and rave about not having any flavor, but somehow can only remember the positive flavor. Everybody wants their Death Guard to have FnP on everything, but nobody ever seems to remember that Death Guard also could only have 2 Rhinos before they ate up Fast Attack slots and you could never take Heavy Weapons. Period. Nobody ever seems to ask for the coherent theme dropping FnP from Plague Marines (Which they didn't have till 4th). Nope, they want army wide FnP. So whether you intend it or not, it appears that you're asking for power. I dare not accuse anybody of that, for fear I hurt feelings again, but that is what it looks like on the surface.

As for the rest, well...Your defenses against the "tired and blatantly false" statements have not been convincing. Sorry you feel so persecuted, but your bitterness really kills any attempts at constructive conversation. Maybe you should stick with 30k, where the only difference between a traitor and a loyalist is a set of special rules. Probably be best to avoid 40k, and the forums, for the sake of your sanity.

Scribe of Khorne
17-09-2013, 06:22
If I where to drop my self righteousness, all that would be left is my righteousness...;)

Again, you do not have people ignoring the negatives. Bring them up! Discuss them! Look at the Night Lord rules that have been nothing but supported and endorsed everywhere I look.

Warlord dies? Your whole army takes a moral test.
You fail that test? You run back an extra inch.

And in return for those? You have a chance at wounding more often...you have night vision...and you get a 6+ cover save on turn one.

Just give the CSM some flavour, thats all I ask before yes, my mind cracks at the inane commentary on power levels, and "++1" that seemingly only Chaos is guilty of over and over and over.

EDIT: I am asking for power? Please dredge up some quotes where I personally am asking for power buffs. If I have, then I shall apologize.

Regardless good sir, you have your wish.

Ssilmath
17-09-2013, 06:51
EDIT: I am asking for power? Please dredge up some quotes where I personally am asking for power buffs. If I have, then I shall apologize.

Regardless good sir, you have your wish.

Generic you, sorry. Should have made that clear, was not referring to you in particular.

SaintTom
17-09-2013, 07:05
*snip*

I really really wish we had a like button or something on here. Keep up the good fight Brother. :D

NitrosOkay
17-09-2013, 07:34
Thousand Sons haven't had immunity to S4 since 2nd edition. They definitely didn't have it in the Chaos List that came with the 3rd ed rulebook and also didn't have it in 3.5 (I don't have the 3.0 book anymore).

If they did they might not've been so bad. 25 points a model for a fearless 2 wound marine that is slow and purposeful and initiative 1. No other upsides.

Excessus
17-09-2013, 08:42
Nitros, the only codex TS had immunity to S4 was codex 3.0.

Ironbone
17-09-2013, 09:46
This kind of ******** is the ENTIRE reason these threads suck time after time after time.

"CSM just want to be MEQ+1"
"CSM just want to be the next Grey Knights"
"CSM just want to be broken, like IW in 3.5"
"CSM are just power gamers, unsatisfied with the power of their list"
But...Thats true :(. Every time i see CSM players ranting about how blad and one-lister is their codex, be it 4th of 6he edition ones (ALWAYS, and by any mean always ) someone will say "3.5 codex was so much better, so many lists, so many rules, so many items to choose, ble ble ble...", i just see people crying about glory lost. Power they lost. Terrible, broken, insanly overpowerd codex they lost.

They simply miss that. Wich is undestandable :).

But good Lord - its been 6 yerars since this PG haven ( yes, and don't even try to deny how super-strong was this codex :mad: ) was replaced by new codex, first by 4th ed one ( WORST codex ever IMHO ), and more recently, 6 th ed one.

Time-to-move-on :shifty:.

3.5 codex, its legion rules, deamobomb, and god-specyfic armouries are now dead. Let them rest in peace.

Fear Ghoul
17-09-2013, 10:13
So it turned into a whine-fest after all. Again.

I think jaded 3.5 players need their own subforum, so that they can their critics can have at it away from 40k general so we don't have to see another one of these threads pop up every damn week.

Ironbone
17-09-2013, 10:47
Ironicly CSM players act very like their own army - they focus on "glorious" past, remebering bitterly how much power and infuence they have, and how "little:shifty:" they have now.

daveNYC
17-09-2013, 10:57
It's possible to give back some of that 3.5 flavor and variety without adding in the brokenness. C:SM has chapter traits, special characters for most legions (poor Iron Hands), and a wide variety of dedicated transports. Most non-cult players would be quite happy to have five sets of legion traits and expanded access to transports. The cults unfortunately would need much heavier lifting.

I'm not sure how you get from saying that the 4.0 codex was the worst ever, to saying that CSM player should just accept the state of the 6.0 codex (which is basically a minor update to 4.0). Only main difference for power is that the broken list changed from Dual Lash to Black Mace and Baledrake.

Ironbone
17-09-2013, 12:07
It's possible to give back some of that 3.5 flavor and variety without adding in the brokenness.
Indeed it is, but it would be quite hard to do so. All CSM players i know tend to use "power makes right" aproach to both list theme and fluff. Building decent fandex for legions that would satisfy most CSM players would be hard job.


I'm not sure how you get from saying that the 4.0 codex was the worst ever, to saying that CSM player should just accept the state of the 6.0 codex (which is basically a minor update to 4.0)
No, my point was for CSM players, maybe not to accept 6th ed ( if they have any choice in that matter ) far and wide ( it have lots of flavs, baledrake being only biggenst of them, but barging drake and DP, its preety decent book IMHO ), but rather to finaly stop whining about how super duper was codex 3.5, how sorrly they miss it, and how desparatly they want it back. Because they wont.

I can understand why they liked this codex so much, but seriously, its been 6 years since 3.5 codex expired. No other army have comunity with nostalgia ( and wrong driven nostalgia IMHO ) on such scale. Do any of fellow warseeres ever encounter so many players of IG, SM, Eldars, Tau, Nids, or any other army whinig so much about past glory ? SoB players have good reason to, with current WD crap-dex, and yet they do not whine on such scale ( maybe because there is so few of them :p. Or they know how to suffer with dignity :p ).

CSM 3.5 codex was one of best codexes ever - for CSM players. And for almost everyone else it was one of the worst codexes ever. Simply, it was wrong.

4th ed codex was even more wrong, and 6th ed codex still is wrong, and unfunny to play against, but its the one, form CSM to draw rules and costs for their armies. And it wont change quickly.

Bloodknight
17-09-2013, 12:20
Everybody wants their Death Guard to have FnP on everything, but nobody ever seems to remember that Death Guard also could only have 2 Rhinos before they ate up Fast Attack slots and you could never take Heavy Weapons. Period.

Never missed it with allround infiltration and lieutenants with daemonic speed and lightning claws/ that Plague something scythe whose English name eludes me. I played my Death Guard mostly on foot in 3.5. Rhinos were not really that useful for them anyway.


Thousand Sons haven't had immunity to S4 since 2nd edition.

In 2nd edition they didn't have it at all. In that book, 1Ksons were a worse version of the standard CSM that died randomly when the power drain card was played.



It's possible to give back some of that 3.5 flavor and variety without adding in the brokenness.

The funny thing is that the whole game became so broken that a 3.5 Ironwarrior list looks kind of tame now. That said, I hated Night Lords more. Most of them would just eschew their extra fast attack slots that had no good units anyway and put tons of stealth havocs into hard cover for a 2+ cover save. That could be worse than IW easily.


I'm not sure how you get from saying that the 4.0 codex was the worst ever

I don't know, for me, 3.0 was the worst, it was just a gutted version of 2.0.


Except you never see Khornate players asking for the 1 in 6 chance that their squads go chasing off after the closest enemy, even though that is full of 'personality' and 'flavor', now do you?

You don't see that because GW tends to equate Chaos with Random and then manages to make 5 out of 6 random effects bad for you and one is somewhere between decent and ridiculously good. There is no middle ground. Also, the 3.5 Khorne armies basically played themselves on autopilot, that wasn't even fun to watch or play against.


I'm still in a mood that bezerkers dont have a 2+ save like in 2ed

You should have noted for the newer players that a 2+ armor save in 2nd edition wasn't a big deal. It just meant that you got an armour save once in a while unlike normal Marines who'd die like flies. With a 2+ you'd at least get a 3+ against lasguns and a 4+ against heavy bolters.

daveNYC
17-09-2013, 12:58
Indeed it is, but it would be quite hard to do so. All CSM players i know tend to use "power makes right" aproach to both list theme and fluff. Building decent fandex for legions that would satisfy most CSM players would be hard job.


You mean make them super happy campers? Sure, that'd be tough. The problem is that GW didn't even try to throw a bone towards legion players, and then five codeci later they come out with C:SM that manages to cover all the first foundings and the Black Templars. I know that GW is trying to move away from legions, but considering that roughly 100% of the BL 40k books (not to mention the entire HH series) deals with legion themed CSM, they shouldn't be surprised that a lot of players aren't getting on that train.

Seriously. Drop pods, Land Raider variants that use the Forgefiend's weapons, and legion traits for the non-cults. Then just say you'll cover the cult legions in supplements. You'll still have grumpy players, but at least there'd be something there that BL, NL, IW, AL and WB players could grab on to.

Endobai
17-09-2013, 13:20
Indeed it is, but it would be quite hard to do so. All CSM players i know tend to use "power makes right" aproach to both list theme and fluff. Building decent fandex for legions that would satisfy most CSM players would be hard job.

Obviously you know not too many of them, or happen to know players active on tournaments etc.

All CSM players I know are either miserable because of no legion rules ( fluff players) or quite happy with their dragons and such (power gamers).
Quite the opposite experience.



Do any of fellow warseeres ever encounter so many players of IG, SM, Eldars, Tau, Nids, or any other army whinig so much about past glory ?

We happen to get relatively good books so no. And broken army lists and options will be exploited by PGs so they won't moan either.



And it wont change quickly.

It already did with the HH series, but I am sure that tournament players are not interested... after all everything from FW tends to be prohibited on tournaments in Poland while Tigurius leading 50 Guardsmen makes perfect sense... :confused:

Fortunatelly there are players and players with 3 Baledrakes and many of them do not ever meet.

Thommy H
17-09-2013, 13:32
Given that the most vanilla Traitor Legion of all have been given a supplement, I'm pretty sure Chaos Space Marine players are going to get all their 3.5esque rules back in the next few years anyway.

Nymie_the_Pooh
17-09-2013, 14:05
I started with Chaos in third because it felt like an army I could make my own. It was also full of fun things like free unit upgrades for the unit matching the sacred number. The army offered the most flexibility for customization options at the time. I'm not saying the options were all good or there weren't overpowered options. There were just a lot of them and they were fun, even the ones that were skewed on the scale of being overpowered and underpowered. There was some of this with the Tyranids book that came later with better balance, but the options were not nearly to the same extent. During third I ended up collecting and playing Chaos, Eldar, and near the end of third, Witchhunters. None of the others felt like they were customized to me in the same way the Chaos army did.

I had my own custom chapter even back then, but usually ran counts as Thousand Sons followed by Slaanesh lists the most with even the other Gods seeing some play just to shake things up. I think I only played Iron Warriors a couple of times. They just didn't come across as having as much personality as the other legions to me back then. I am failing to remember if I ever tried a list that included more than one of the Chaos Gods. I both loved and hated the fluff for Thousand Sons. It was tragic what happened to them and makes for a great story, but I couldn't figure out at the time why Tzeentch would continue to share his blessings with the Legion of Dimwits. So I would go to Slaanesh at times even though I wanted to serve Tzeentch.

Now, all the armies are more in line with each other. Conversion possibilities are easier for me to visualize with any army than they were back then. My current armies are Space Marines and Orks. My reasons for choosing an army are completely different now. I have those two because when I was looking to get back into the game buying two Assault on Black Reach sets was a cheap way to build up the core of two different armies. I'm still doing custom chapters and clans, but outside of story games where friends and I screw with the rules amongst ourselves I don't really feel that same level of custom-crafted from these new armies compared to that old Chaos codex any more than I did the other armies I played in third. I enjoy them, and I have fun with them, but Chaos was custom made to order back then.

Grand Master Raziel
17-09-2013, 14:41
I warned the OP no good could come of this thread.

As I'm reading this thread, one of the things that strikes me is that while Chaos players are calling for Legion rules equivalent to the Chapter Traits rules in Codex: Space Marines, they're missing the fact that they've already got them - at least the cult legions do. Said equivalent rules are either already included in the unit entries of the Cult units or can be taken as options on the non-Cult units (Marks and Icons). You can take an army with Cult units as your Troops choices and Marks and Icons distributed as appropriate to whatever other infantry units you take. This gets you Marines with extra rules roughly equivalent to those of the Chapter Traits. They may be a little more expensive, but that's the price you pay when you get to choose what goes where - the customizability premium. I fail to see how this doesn't satisfy the stated request of customizability for the sake of Legion theme.

As far as the non-Cult (formerly Undivided) legions go, theming a list around them is more a matter of where you concentrate your points than anything else. Since filling an FOC in a semi-effective list is an unlikelihood, you can theme by concentrating your points as appropriate - Iron Warriors in Heavy Support, Night Lords in Fast Attack, and Word Bearers in Dark Apostles and Elites (Possessed, specifically), in any of the Daemon engine units, and in allied Daemons. The only legion that really loses out is the Alpha Legion, but the type of infiltration they're referring to in the fluff isn't so much something that happens on a tabletop game level, it's more of something done away from the battlefield to subvert political control of the populace. In order to properly represent that, you'd need something akin to the old Alaitoc Ranger Disruption Table, and I doubt anyone wants to see mechanics like that return. I'll grant Alpha Legion should probably get at least some limited Infiltration ability, but army-wide for +1pt per model? No thank you.

Sureshot05
17-09-2013, 14:59
I warned the OP no good could come of this thread.

As I'm reading this thread, one of the things that strikes me is that while Chaos players are calling for Legion rules equivalent to the Chapter Traits rules in Codex: Space Marines, they're missing the fact that they've already got them - at least the cult legions do. Said equivalent rules are either already included in the unit entries of the Cult units or can be taken as options on the non-Cult units (Marks and Icons). You can take an army with Cult units as your Troops choices and Marks and Icons distributed as appropriate to whatever other infantry units you take. This gets you Marines with extra rules roughly equivalent to those of the Chapter Traits. They may be a little more expensive, but that's the price you pay when you get to choose what goes where - the customizability premium. I fail to see how this doesn't satisfy the stated request of customizability for the sake of Legion theme.

Then you are missing the point. No chaos legion has rules similar to chapter traits. You cannot as a cult player field Terminators or Lords with the same skills as the cult troops. Any Imperial fist captain with a bolter will get the appropriate rules, but not a Khorne Beserker lord? Similarly, the Iron Warriors Marines act identical to the Alpha Legion, but Ultra's act different to Fist's? It's a rules disparity which I'm sure GW will address with the next Chaos book. I think they have learned from both the chaos dex and the previous marine dex that Special Characters unlocking stuff is a big no no.

I think Chapter traits should become more global in the next few Codex's. Eldar with craftworld traits, tau with sept traits, Orks with clan traits, Chaos with legion and undivided traits, the list goes on. All races and codex's would benefit from this approach, giving each codex a huge amount more flavour with minimal effort. Chaos may be the most deserving of this, but I think all forces benefit from this sort of approach.

daveNYC
17-09-2013, 15:25
Cults get legion rules in the sense that they can purchase marks and icons? Not exactly. Especially when you compare the cult troops to non-troop choices that have purchased the mark and icon.
1k Sons: Rubrics, AP3 bolters, Sorcerer character in the squad.
Unit with MoT and banner: +1 to the Invuln save and soul blaze.

Plague Marines: +1T, FNP, Poisoned weapons.
Unit with MoN and banner: +1T and Fear.

Noise Marines: +1I, Sonic Weapons.
Unit with MoS and banner: +1I and FNP.

I don't even remember what 'zerkers get. Basically, some of the cult legions can fake it 'til they make it (Death Guard, but still, Fear?), but the others end up with a pretty major disconnect between their cult troops and units that get the mark and banner. Not to mention that the banner can be sniped, which right there is a pretty major difference from chapter tactics.

Grand Master Raziel
17-09-2013, 15:30
Then you are missing the point. No chaos legion has rules similar to chapter traits. You cannot as a cult player field Terminators or Lords with the same skills as the cult troops. Any Imperial fist captain with a bolter will get the appropriate rules, but not a Khorne Beserker lord? Similarly, the Iron Warriors Marines act identical to the Alpha Legion, but Ultra's act different to Fist's? It's a rules disparity which I'm sure GW will address with the next Chaos book. I think they have learned from both the chaos dex and the previous marine dex that Special Characters unlocking stuff is a big no no.

Actually, your Khornate example proves my point. A Chaos Lord with the Mark of Khorne and in a unit with an Icon of Wrath has the exact same special rules as a Khorne Berserker. In fact, any unit that has the Mark of Khorne and the Icon of Wrath are functionally identical to what you'd get if you could plug Berserkers into that slot. So, you can have Berserker Terminators, Berserker Bikers, Berserker Raptors (which actually goes against the old fluff - Raptors used to be an independent cult apart from any of the legions). Such units come with Rage, Counterattack, and Furious Charge. That's 3 special rules per unit. The Chapter Traits, on the other hand, are usually only generating one or two special rules per unit, if that.

As for the non-cult Legions, I've already conceded to the Alpha Legion needing a little something-something, but for the rest? The "vanilla" Chaos units are customizable in a way C:SM units aren't, so you can customize to taste based on your vision of how the Legion in question operates. The extreme unit customizability is basically Chaos' big special rule. If Chaos players were getting that customizability and some kind of army wide special rule a la the C:SM Chapter Traits, then you're talking Marines +1. Right now, I'd judge the two books to be reasonably well balanced against each other. If you want Chaos Legions to get rules similar to C:SM Chapter Traits, I want to know what you're willing to give up in order to get them.

Ironbone
17-09-2013, 15:37
Obviously you know not too many of them, or happen to know players active on tournaments etc.
Good for you :p. I dont know is knowing about dozen is few or many, but most indeed are turnament active.


Quite the opposite experience.

Feeling of two diffrent personas tend to be diffrent. I know for example, that there exists players who do not use lash in 4th ed chaos codex, but i never encounter any CSM army without at least one ( an more than 90, or even 95% of them have doluble lash ).


We happen to get relatively good books so no. And broken army lists and options will be exploited by PGs so they won't moan either.
Ok, so why CSM rant so much ? Codex is relativly strong, especialy if you field baledrake wing.


Tigurius leading 50 Guardsmen makes perfect sense...
Maybe not perfect, but makes sense. Some SM chapters ( and UM in particular ) are not above standing shoulder to shoulder with their faithful bullet shields.... eee i mean fellow defenders of imperium :D.


It already did with the HH series, but I am sure that tournament players are not interested... after all everything from FW tends to be prohibited on tournaments in Poland
I think is because enormous price of FW books and models, and their "legendary" OP rules. FW rules are little known, and people tend to fear the unknown. Thats true not only for Poland.


Fortunatelly there are players and players with 3 Baledrakes and many of them do not ever meet.
Then I keep bombing into wrong ones :p .


I fail to see how this doesn't satisfy the stated request of customizability for the sake of Legion theme.

IMHO its because its almost nothing when compared to old legions rules, when selecting paricular ex-legion warband ( legions as one pice no longer exists ) severvly chaged your army compsition. IW ( being argubably most popular ) for example baned most deamons and had only 1FA ( wich was rarly used anyway :p), but have 4HS choices, and removed 0-1 cap from Obliterators - all serious changes.

TheDungen
17-09-2013, 15:38
jaded 3.5 players? You are missing the point, it's about options not about power, I'd rather have the next chaos book be hordes of chaos (underpowered but with loads of underpowered options) than what it currently is. Sure the tooled up chaos lord and daemon princes was horrible but there was a reason for that these are supposed to be super villains the guy who laughs madly as he plans his global domination of course they should be the badest mansized unit in the game (but unlike 3.5 costed accordingly) that's what makes it heroic when the good guys take him down though teamwork (read superior numbers). Chaos players true chaos players want options they want chaos, they want to go to town converting and making their chaos lord and their chaos army, sure when 3.5 was around we got the power gamers but they left when they no longer was the most powerful army around any more, now they play necrons I guess or maybee chaos again for the helldrakes, but they arent real chaos players, they're power gamers.
I'm still hoping that we'll one day get a chaotic chaos book again, a book for people who want to make their wacky army regardless if it's powerful or not, hey maybe we will. Until then I collect rather than play.


edit: oh and I miss the IG rules for making your own regiment, and the space marine chapter traits system too, I'm just that kind of guy, I'm not that fussed about balance, regardless if it favours me or the enemy, I like options and customability. It's not about legion lists, it's about all those option that were in the legion lists and outside them, it's about all those options that were in all the old books while the new books just loads heap after heap of new units that can only do one thing on us. Take the stalker and hunter why are those diffrent units why not one unit with two options for weapons? why not just upgrades for the predator? same thing with chaos, why do we have warpsmiths, dark apostles and sorcerers when we could have chaos lord and chaos leiutenants that could take these things as upgrades? i get that it's streamlining, but I'll never forget when i picked up the 4.0 csm dex and saw chaos librarians (sorry sorcerers) had no weapons options always took force weapons.

lordreaven448
17-09-2013, 15:53
As in my previous post. I find it interesting most CSM players ignore the fact Daemons not only became their own force, but were expanded beyond what we had. Yes Chaos lost alot of it's Marine variation but the Actual Gods themselves and their servants got better rules (see the amazing 6th edition book) and their fluff was increased significantly intstead of being a foot note.

I do feel for the CSM players but if they got what they Truly wanted (3.5 for 6th) my army would most likely be Squated. I support them getting legions and such but I worry they will want more.

EDIT:Also CD is the best book to run Mono god. In fact the book encourages you to:D

daveNYC
17-09-2013, 16:01
I'm glad you got your army as a stand alone faction, I'm less happy that doing so meant that CSM got stuck with generic lesser and greater daemons for 4th and 5th edition.

TheDungen
17-09-2013, 16:11
it's nice that daemons became a force of their own but I seldom fielded them in the first place, chaos is cool because they are fallen heroes damned by their own actions, as I said earlier: super villains. daemons are just daemons, sure my chaos lord might have used them from time to time but at the end of the day you can't tell a story about a extra dimensional phenomena at least not without interesting characters interacting with it. A daemon is an object not a character.

lordreaven448
17-09-2013, 16:17
it's nice that daemons became a force of their own but I never fielded them in the first place, chaos is cool becuase they are fallen heroes damned by their own actions, as I said earlier: super villains. daemons are just daemons, sure my chaos lord might have used them from time to time but at the end of the day you can't tell a story about a extra dimensional phenomena at least not without intresting characters interacting with it.
I don't know. Skulltaker could easily have books written for him. Look at the short story of the Changling in the CD 6th book. It made me want to use him, made me want to see what shenanigans he would do next.

Grand Master Raziel
17-09-2013, 16:43
IMHO its because its almost nothing when compared to old legions rules, when selecting paricular ex-legion warband ( legions as one pice no longer exists ) severvly chaged your army compsition. IW ( being argubably most popular ) for example baned most deamons and had only 1FA ( wich was rarly used anyway :p), but have 4HS choices, and removed 0-1 cap from Obliterators - all serious changes.

Well, with the current dex, you can just choose not to take any daemonic units (a lot less to choose from anyway), choose not to take Chaos Daemon allies, fill your Heavy Support slots with Obliterators, and field 3 Chaos Dreadnoughts, AKA Helbrutes (which used to be a Heavy Support choice back in 3.5). All you're really missing is the 4th Heavy Support slot, but I don't see FOC swaps like that coming back ever. You could, however, take some allied (traitor) Imperial Guard to get back the Basilisk (or a squadron of them) that IW used to be able to get in the 3.5 day. Even makes more sense that way - considering how rare Space Marines (good or bad) are supposed to be, no commander in their right mind would waste them manning artillery pieces.

Ssilmath
17-09-2013, 16:46
Ok, so let's see if we can pull this back to a more or less positive path.

To please the Legion players, you need Legion specific rules that are either divorced from, or in addition to, god specific rules. Marks and theming an army are not a good enough representative for these players, mostly due to Chapter Tactics being released (Though there was much complaining even before those).
To please warband/renegade players, you need customization that does not tread on the toes of the Legions (Veteran skills, Dark Mechanicus ties, god specific upgrades without being Legions).
To please the people who want uber units, you have to either make units 50 or so points, and worth it, or make units upgradable to that level.
To please the hordes of Chaos players, you need to let them take masses of MEQ bodies lead by uber characters.
To please old school players, Daemons need to be reintegrated, and probably bring back the Lost and the Damned, mutants and Beastmen.
To please the fluff games, you need options out the wazoo. Judging by comments, it seems that people want 3 or 4 codices worth of customization and options.
To please the power gamers, you need to have one or two uber builds. Of course, the fluffy gamers are going to want their Legion/Warband to be one of those uber builds.

Yeah, I don't think that GW could please anybody, no matter what they do.

skorczeny
17-09-2013, 18:08
Ok, so let's see if we can pull this back to a more or less positive path.

To please the Legion players, you need Legion specific rules that are either divorced from, or in addition to, god specific rules. Marks and theming an army are not a good enough representative for these players, mostly due to Chapter Tactics being released (Though there was much complaining even before those).
To please warband/renegade players, you need customization that does not tread on the toes of the Legions (Veteran skills, Dark Mechanicus ties, god specific upgrades without being Legions).
To please the people who want uber units, you have to either make units 50 or so points, and worth it, or make units upgradable to that level.
To please the hordes of Chaos players, you need to let them take masses of MEQ bodies lead by uber characters.
To please old school players, Daemons need to be reintegrated, and probably bring back the Lost and the Damned, mutants and Beastmen.
To please the fluff games, you need options out the wazoo. Judging by comments, it seems that people want 3 or 4 codices worth of customization and options.
To please the power gamers, you need to have one or two uber builds. Of course, the fluffy gamers are going to want their Legion/Warband to be one of those uber builds.

Yeah, I don't think that GW could please anybody, no matter what they do.

Is this really your attempt at being positive? ;)

Legion players want army wide rules similar to chapter tactics - some sort of legion tactics - to show there is as much a difference between Iron Warriors and Black Legion as there is between Iron Hands and Ultramarines. Future supplements may do this (i.e. Black Legion supplement, which is not "more power", is a huge step in the right direction).

Yes - many chaos players want more options. When 6th hit, there were some very obvious options missing that existed in 4th that weren't overpowered - i.e. only 1 marked daemon weapon in the book. It immediately raised eyebrows. GW can easily add more options - and future supplements may fix many of the options they overlooked.

I don't think we're asking for chaos daemons codex back in the chaos codex.
I don't think we're asking for Lost and the Damned (easily represented by creative use of many existing chaos units + allies, imho)
I don't think we're asking for more power for power-gaming. (And regardless, power gaming with chaos is accomodated every edition. (3.5, 4, and 6 at least))

Chaos 6th edition is without a doubt better than 4th. But GW can do better.

TheDungen
17-09-2013, 18:36
I don't think that the legions need separate rules, just make the old mark = cult unit thing again and you're halfway there, now allow a warpsmith like upgrade on chaos lords and aspiring champions and you have IW (not takable by marked characters at least not for champions), do the same with the dark apostle and you have word bearers (same deal as before), which leaves nightlords and alpha legion so do some option that fits them... having a lord with jumppack (and no mark) lets you take a single unit of raptors as troops, buying some other upgrade lets you infiltrate any (or troops if unbalanced) unit that's joined by the chaos lord.
rengades can then mix these upgrades ad infinitem to be unique (held back only by balance).
If you want you chaos to be a horde army take cultists, problem solved. I think everyone realises daemons can't be reintigrated at this point. so drop a few more cool options and we're done.
If you want to please the power gamers... there's the door we want nothing to do with them, they can take the baledrake and just leave... right now. No but seriously I wouldnt care about them cause they will move to the optimal army the second csm isn't it anyway.

As said there has been underpowered armies with loads of options look at hordes of chaos.

Nymie_the_Pooh
17-09-2013, 18:46
While I have a lot of nostalgia for the old codex, I feel the new one is more in line with the current codices. I'd rather see all of the armies get more options. That's a possibility now through a combination of supplements and maybe the potential for smaller lists designed to be ran as allies. It's uncertain how long or how frequently GW plans to release supplements or if they will decide to take advantage of White Dwarf to print rules for small forces to be designed as allied attachments or not. Probably not on the latter, but I have hope that someday GW will try the option. Not to the point where we need to carry a case of White Dwarfs with us to every game because one little thing changed with the game in most issues, but one off, self-contained bits that can't be covered by FAQs. I hope they keep going with the supplements and that means everybody may have options like what was in the third edition Chaos books.

Vedar
17-09-2013, 18:49
As an Iron Warrior Player I'd say a warpsmith is not a Warsmith. I don't need my leader to fix a Rhino, I need my leader to lead my forces in glorious siege warfare crushing anything and everything in his path. Until we get more books out Iron Warriors continue to be just another CSM army.

Lord Damocles
17-09-2013, 18:59
As an Iron Warrior Player I'd say a warpsmith is not a Warsmith. I don't need my leader to fix a Rhino, I need my leader to lead my forces in glorious siege warfare crushing anything and everything in his path. Until we get more books out Iron Warriors continue to be just another CSM army.
Of course, Warsmiths also had a sideline in repairing Rhinos in 3.5; and the Siege Specialists rule was basically worthless.

Lord Damocles
17-09-2013, 19:00
As an Iron Warrior Player I'd say a warpsmith is not a Warsmith. I don't need my leader to fix a Rhino, I need my leader to lead my forces in glorious siege warfare crushing anything and everything in his path. Until we get more books out Iron Warriors continue to be just another CSM army.
Of course, Warsmiths also had a sideline in repairing Rhinos in 3.5; and the Siege Specialists rule was basically worthless.

Ssilmath
17-09-2013, 19:23
Is this really your attempt at being positive? ;) Well, more positive than the petty bickering that usually goes on, I hope. Trying to steer things away from complaining and more towards conceptualizing solutions based on current arguments made and past codices.


Legion players want army wide rules similar to chapter tactics - some sort of legion tactics - to show there is as much a difference between Iron Warriors and Black Legion as there is between Iron Hands and Ultramarines. Future supplements may do this (i.e. Black Legion supplement, which is not "more power", is a huge step in the right direction).

Yes - many chaos players want more options. When 6th hit, there were some very obvious options missing that existed in 4th that weren't overpowered - i.e. only 1 marked daemon weapon in the book. It immediately raised eyebrows. GW can easily add more options - and future supplements may fix many of the options they overlooked.
Yup, there were certainly missteps in this case. Could be wanting to save those options for supplements, could be sheer incompetence. I know where most people will put the explanation, but there's no real way to know why those options weren't included


I don't think we're asking for chaos daemons codex back in the chaos codex.
I don't think we're asking for Lost and the Damned (easily represented by creative use of many existing chaos units + allies, imho)
I don't think we're asking for more power for power-gaming. (And regardless, power gaming with chaos is accomodated every edition. (3.5, 4, and 6 at least))

I don't believe you, based entirely on these endless threads and the comments, requests, rants and suggestions. The biggest complaints about a lack of flavor somehow manage to come mostly from the people who play Legions that are not the top dog of the codex. Complaints about lack of flavor often mention daemons being taken out, lack of LaTD. A great many suggestions are overpowered even now, and would have been game winning on their own in 3rd and 4th. And I don't think people even realize that, as they are caught up in the awesome that their faction could/should be.


Chaos 6th edition is without a doubt better than 4th. But GW can do better. No argument here.

Ironbone
17-09-2013, 20:53
Chaos 6th edition is without a doubt better than 4th. But GW can do better.

No argument here.
Well, concidering how bad was 4th ed dex, GW have to actually work to make something worse :D.

TheDungen
17-09-2013, 22:47
the thing is keeping options for the supplements isn't going to work because many of us ignore those since we realise the next codex is going to invalidate them again and they wont be made official again until they redo the supplement book which could quite frankly be years of being unofficial kind of like the EoT lists, no they need to add option to the main list that we know is going to be at least be mostly official at all times.

thanoson
17-09-2013, 23:45
Demon bomb and Iron Warriors to me, are the things that broke 3.5. The way daemons were summoned and could assault, kill a squad, then consolidate to the next was over the top for that time. Daemons can't do that now and it would not be a factor in brokendess. The part that really got me was taking away all the awesome legion rules because it was too powerful, but then giving the SM chapter traits in the next codex. We got generic daemons. Lol. I used mine to the fullest too. This latest CSM codex feels like the 5th codex with dinosaurs. Not what I was looking for in my new balanced with others codex. The Baledrake is the only thing that stands out in the codex. Every other book has a few things that truly shine, but not chaos. Even the Chaos Daemons had more shining than CSm's. Beast of nurgle, plague drones, chariots of slaanesh, DP's, etc....

Sternguard777
18-09-2013, 08:53
Well, concidering how bad was 4th ed dex, GW have to actually work to make something worse :D.

What about the White Dwarf Sisters "Codex"?

Warsmith Tharak
18-09-2013, 09:51
Warsmith is just the rank to the leader of a Iron Warrior warband. He did not, and does not have to have a servo-arm to be "fluffy".

AdamR
18-09-2013, 09:59
Warsmith is just the rank to the leader of a Iron Warrior warband. He did not, and does not have to have a servo-arm to be "fluffy".

I can't remember anyone using the servo arm in 3rd anyway - 30 points for 1 powerfist attack and unimmobilising a vehicle on a 6 if you did nothing for a turn...
If it was on the model it was generally to represent Daemonic Strength IME.

Warsmith Tharak
18-09-2013, 10:28
I can't remember anyone using the servo arm in 3rd anyway - 30 points for 1 powerfist attack and unimmobilising a vehicle on a 6 if you did nothing for a turn...
If it was on the model it was generally to represent Daemonic Strength IME.

I used it on one of my liutenants:-) I remember I had 3 Liutenants, 1 sorcer, one sorcer Lord, a Daemon Prince and of course the Warsmith. They all led different parts of the 3.Grand Company. The one With servo-arm led the artilery divison: 3 Defilers and a Baselisk.

1 was the infeltrator With several Squads with infeltrate, the sorceror was the breach holder With 30 possessed, and so on and so forth.

That for me was the biggest joy of 3.5: the fluff, or to be more accurat, the fluff I made up :-) Before I painted another 10 man havoc Squad becouse one of my Liutenants needed some more fire support, and the other 3 havocs belonged to another of the Liutenants.

That is the reason I am closing in on 20000 painted Points:-)

Now when I open the Codex I do not feel the great pull to make sevral New divisons to my army... At least until after my 60 cultist led by a Warpsmith, who rule over a semi-forge world in the real Space, that churns out daemonic armour support in the form of 2 hell brutes, deceminator, 3 fiends and 2 drakes are painted.


Damn, 15 years in and still loving the hobby and army:-)

AdamR
18-09-2013, 10:34
I used it on one of my liutenants:-) I remember I had 3 Liutenants, 1 sorcer, one sorcer Lord, a Daemon Prince and of course the Warsmith. They all led different parts of the 3.Grand Company. The one With servo-arm led the artilery divison: 3 Defilers and a Baselisk.

1 was the infeltrator With several Squads with infeltrate, the sorceror was the breach holder With 30 possessed, and so on and so forth.

That for me was the biggest joy of 3.5: the fluff, or to be more accurat, the fluff I made up :-) Before I painted another 10 man havoc Squad becouse one of my Liutenants needed some more fire support, and the other 3 havocs belonged to another of the Liutenants.

That is the reason I am closing in on 20000 painted Points:-)

Now when I open the Codex I do not feel the great pull to make sevral New divisons to my army... At least until after my 60 cultist led by a Warpsmith, who rule over a semi-forge world in the real Space, that churns out daemonic armour support in the form of 2 hell brutes, deceminator, 3 fiends and 2 drakes are painted.


Damn, 15 years in and still loving the hobby and army:-)

And this is why Warseer needs a like button!

Ironbone
18-09-2013, 11:20
What about the White Dwarf Sisters "Codex"?
You mean this WD poor excuse for codex ? Compared to codex:lash ? Still better :D ( in terms of enjoyment for both sieds and list vaietry, not power level ofc).

Warsmith Tharak
18-09-2013, 11:47
And Reading it back, I see that my work computer should really have a spell check:p

But in all seriousness, we who played back in 3.5 miss custemizeble of the army. We had many, if not the most, number of competative list of all time: daemon bomb, all infeltrate, Iron Warrior, Khorn army (bloodthirster + tooled up daemon prince), Siren Prince and most likely many more.
I took a cheap liutenant (+str, +a, pw) 2 land raiders, 18 possessed With rending and a couple 6 men las/plas, 2*1 obliterator and made 3 in my countrys biggest turnament (around 30-40 people). I met, and killed the "standard" IW list, and 4 other competative list. Lost aganst Siren Bomb. This was the last turnament I played in, I am much more a bear and pretzel player.
The problem With this turnament was that 4 out of 5 top Places was held by Chaos players. The good thing was that the 4 armyes did not look like alike at all.

Now we have had 1 competative list for two editions, and Chaos players are bored.

Of course, depending on the grup "competative" might not be the only way to play...

AndrewGPaul
18-09-2013, 12:21
I sort of miss the days when World Eaters armies included Tactical and Devastator squads as well as Assault squads, and their Techmarines could bring along units of beastman slaves with explosive collars. Oh, and when a daemon weapon was worthy of the name, and cost half your army points total. :)

But only in the abstract. It's perhaps better remembered than experienced again. :)

thanoson
19-09-2013, 04:41
Another thing I miss about older chaos list; having non space marine units in my army. Beastmen, ratlings, minotaurs, ogryns, orks and elder were all candidates for being possessed and being part of your warband. I had a Ratling chaos lord with one oversized foot. God he was awesome. And if you really want to talk fluff, Slaves to Darkness was where it was at. And that Lost and the Damned book. Dark Sensai? Sure. The Starchild? Ok. I'm kinda of tired of just CSM's as chaos.

Baaltor
19-09-2013, 05:07
Well, more positive than the petty bickering that usually goes on, I hope. Trying to steer things away from complaining and more towards conceptualizing solutions based on current arguments made and past codices.

I can take that claim in good faith, but I found the way you wrote that list as a little derogatory.



I don't believe you, based entirely on these endless threads and the comments, requests, rants and suggestions. The biggest complaints about a lack of flavor somehow manage to come mostly from the people who play Legions that are not the top dog of the codex. Complaints about lack of flavor often mention daemons being taken out, lack of LaTD. A great many suggestions are overpowered even now, and would have been game winning on their own in 3rd and 4th. And I don't think people even realize that, as they are caught up in the awesome that their faction could/should be.

There've been endless threads, comments requests, rants, and suggestions, petitions etc. for every faction in 40k, not the least of which have been the Astartes loyalists. They alone have asked for the same sort of treatments that we do, with the notable difference being that they have a tendency to see their issues addressed more than we do. It's not a majority opinion that daemons should be in the main book, I'm one of the people who believes this, but I know I'm the minority; it's actually pretty rare for players to want LatD in as well. Every faction's been asking for over the top OP garbage, it's a fact: I've seen people talking about 'fluffy' '5's across the boards for astartes (I've yet to see a chaos marine player advocate this), similar stats for Eldar, and gitz asking for S5 T5 orks.

I really don't understand how chaos players are singled out like this, is it really believe that we're some sort of abhuman monstrosities, that endlessly complain about everything? Do we have any empirical data that proves we're some sort of genetic anomally, and that our armybook hasn't just been ill-fated? You're all of course free to believe what you will, but I'm confident enough in my belief that chaos has just had a bad run of luck for its history.

Ssilmath
19-09-2013, 05:25
Might have something to do with bi weekly threads complaining about the plight of Chaos, the lack of flavor (Or an acceptable amount) and how Loyalists get all the cool stuff. Things do pop up for other factions (Sisters had a good run for a while) but not nearly with the frequency or raw fury that the Chaos threads seem to be characterized by. But that's just my view on it.

Baaltor
19-09-2013, 06:06
Might have something to do with bi weekly threads complaining about the plight of Chaos, the lack of flavor (Or an acceptable amount) and how Loyalists get all the cool stuff. Things do pop up for other factions (Sisters had a good run for a while) but not nearly with the frequency or raw fury that the Chaos threads seem to be characterized by. But that's just my view on it.

These bi-weekly thread won't be forever. A month ago chaos complaint threads weren't common place, and before that, leading up to the new chaos book they weren't anymore common than complaints for another race. What attracted the whine threads from Codex: CSM was the lack of shinyness, and frankly, those threads weren't very punctuated; they were entirely in the scope of whine threads for a normal release, including opponents complaining about the book being too good. Hell, I've seen a lot more complaint threads AGAINST chaos, for the sake of the helldrake. A little over year ago threads complaining about Tyranids were far more common than chaos by a good margin.

You have likely noticed that the backlash is much worse now than it was when the chaos book itself was released, and you've clearly demonstrated you know of the contant comparison against the loyalists. These facts are evidence of the true problem: not that chaos fans are just jealous of loyalists, and want their toys; but that 4th ed. crippled the spirit of chaos' book, removed swathes of options, and replaced them with nothing. The martyrdom of CSM and DA saved other books from the torch at their own expense. You may recall DA being "the whiny marines". Throughout the time between 4th and 6th we've been told that the stuff we wanted for our book wasn't possible. Solidly into 6th ed., we see that the chaos book was halfassedly slapped together, with huge chunks of crunch transposed, the only book with troops that got worse, AND more expensive. But the catalyst for all these rants aren't those results, the catalyst is that the same rules we were denied on grounds of it being too unfluffy, and OP were given to loyalists. They got a polished, reworked book, and we got a rehash. If everyone else got the same, we wouldn't be complaining. For the second time in a row we got served a Fillet-o-fish while the other diners got seabass.

malisteen
19-09-2013, 06:10
When a sisters player complains about the poor handling of their faction, they get some sympathy, and the conversation ends there. When chaos marine players complain, even when its as inoccuous as asking 'why exactly did kelly see fit to remove our beacons altogether, aren't large deep striking terminator retinues an iconic chaos thing?', it's met with "OMG WAAC POWER GAMER HELLDRAKE HELDRAKE HELLDRAKE".

You also don't see threads being started simply to bait chaos complaints.

Also, theres a fair bit more chaos players than sisters or black templars players, and even then, I have seen sisters and templars complaint threads, and tons of very similarly negative complaint threads about the current tyranid codex, and if the new nid book is as much of an improvement over the current one as the chaos book was over its prior incarnation, then we'll see a lot more such threads out of bug players in the future.

Ssilmath
19-09-2013, 06:15
Hah. Yeah no, these Chaos complaint threads have been going on for far longer than the release of a book with Chapter Tactics. They've been going for a lot longer than that. I officially joined Warseer to point out to the people ranting and raving about Chosen losing a weapon that they were not looking close enough at the leaked pictures. And in those threads there was constant rage at GW failing to make good on promises that had been in rumor threads (Of totally broken stuff) that was fabricated. So you won't convince me that this phenomenon only manifested when Space Marines got to have more special rules available than Chaos did.

@Malisteen. Those Sisters and Templar complaints threads also tend to devolve into one person endlessly complaining while other people offer some sympathy but ultimately tell them to get over it.

Wishing
19-09-2013, 07:30
and they wont be made official again until they redo the supplement book

An aside, but I totally assume that the supplement books are a one-off, and in the next edition they'll have been replaced by something else. GW doesn't tend to stick with a design model for very long, in my view. That said, the rules in the supplements have every chance of being incorporated into their respective codexes in the future. But it's not a given, I think.

Baaltor
19-09-2013, 08:50
So you won't convince me that this phenomenon only manifested when Space Marines got to have more special rules available than Chaos did.

I won't convince you, because that's definitely not what I said.

malisteen
19-09-2013, 16:15
@Malisteen. Those Sisters and Templar complaints threads also tend to devolve into one person endlessly complaining while other people offer some sympathy but ultimately tell them to get over it.

And if thats how people responded to chaos complaint threads, well there might or might not be fewer of them, but they'd be a lot shorter and less ornry.

lordreaven448
19-09-2013, 19:56
Might have something to do with bi weekly threads complaining about the plight of Chaos, the lack of flavor (Or an acceptable amount) and how Loyalists get all the cool stuff. Things do pop up for other factions (Sisters had a good run for a while) but not nearly with the frequency or raw fury that the Chaos threads seem to be characterized by. But that's just my view on it.
Remember, it's not ALL of Chaos complaining. It's only the traitors.

Soldado
20-09-2013, 13:15
Easy to fix, giving the choice to take a servo-arm instead a power fist and making servo-armed models being able to repair in a roll of 5+