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View Full Version : OK, the Terrorgiest/Mortis Engine combo is utter b******t



Foegnasher
15-09-2013, 16:07
I had never played against that crap before, and had, what i feel was my least enjoyable warhammer game ever. It's a game that, since i have no cannons (I play WoC) i have zero chance of winning. my opponent bunkered his skelly/zombies around the mortis engine, flew all around me with the 'Giest, and shouted my army apart. there was nothing i could do. i got into close combat, and my army evaporated from the engine and the shouts. he didnt even need to kill many chaos warriors with his incredible badass vampire. my guys just died. how is that supposed to be fun? The 'Giest being able to scream into CC is BROKEN. total crap. ugh.

Fear Ghoul
15-09-2013, 16:15
What was your army list?

The Terrorgheist is one of the best options in the Vampire Counts book, but it isn't what I would described as broken. Overpowered perhaps, but not broken. It is expensive, has no armour save and a pitiful regeneration save, will be well outside healing and marching range most of the game, loses effectiveness rapidly as it is damaged and as such has an absolute fear of cannons and posion, and won't do much damage to standard infantry blocks most of the time.

Scammel
15-09-2013, 16:30
I question how a Terrorgeist is managing to flap around unmolested against the army with the single best selection of credible flying threats.

Askari
15-09-2013, 16:34
The Mortis Engine/Terrorgheist combo? Here's me thinking 2 Terrorgheists are much worse...

Didn't you say you had Chaos Warriors? One of the few armies with someone who can stand up to a Vampire Lord (Chaos Lord or Daemon Prince) and whose Core choices will obliterate even Vampire Counts elites? Just get into combat, rack up a gargantuan combat res, and crumble the enemy to death.

The Terrrogheist is nasty, sure, but that's it entire purpose - to kill expensive models that rely on quality over quantity like Warriors of Chaos. Feed it one of those Marauder blocks that no-one seems to like anymore and watch it die without killing very much as it's combat ability it poor and it's scream worsens quickly when taking wounds.

Rakariel
15-09-2013, 16:40
I question how a Terrorgeist is managing to flap around unmolested against the army with the single best selection of credible flying threats.

That was the first thing that popped into my head aswell. What happened to your chimeras and demon princes?

theunwantedbeing
15-09-2013, 16:53
The 'Giest being able to scream into CC is BROKEN. total crap. ugh.

Be glad he didn't do a banshee wall and the exact same tactic then, as they can shoot into combat as well.
What was his list exactly and what did you have?

Foegnasher
15-09-2013, 17:18
I dont play with chimeras or demon princes. it's chaos WARRIORS. i run infantry. and i DID run into his units, and i did run up a huge cr. the units did crumble, and he STILL KILLED THEM ALL.

Lance Tankmen
15-09-2013, 17:34
the scream is a complete fun sapper and rage causer when they scream into a zombie/skele combat and take out 8 models

Borgomos
15-09-2013, 17:45
He is horrible in combat, has barely any saves. Hellcannons blast them. Heroes/Lords on Tzeentch Discs can catch up to them and defeat them, popping up due to Unstable. It has a huge footprint and risks getting charged by long distance/swiftstride units. As an Undead it cannot flee a charge reaction....

I understand that you want to stick to the theme of Chaos Warriors, but if you refuse to use your Armybook to its full potential while your opponent does (and believe me, Dual Terrorgeists are a lot better than 1 Giest/1 Engine), then you take the sole responsibility of deploying a force weaker than an optimized list. How is that the VC books fault ? It is the most balanced book of this edition.

Ramius4
15-09-2013, 17:50
I understand that you want to stick to the theme of Chaos Warriors, but if you refuse to use your Armybook to its full potential while your opponent does (and believe me, Dual Terrorgeists are a lot better than 1 Giest/1 Engine), then you take the sole responsibility of deploying a force weaker than an optimized list. How is that the VC books fault ? It is the most balanced book of this edition.

I was pretty much going to say the same thing, so instead I'll just quote you.

Scammel
15-09-2013, 17:50
I dont play with chimeras or demon princes. it's chaos WARRIORS. i run infantry. and i DID run into his units, and i did run up a huge cr. the units did crumble, and he STILL KILLED THEM ALL.

Then you really have no right to complain whatsoever. If you expect to just walk up to anyone and walk over them, expect to lose. Your book has the options to deal with the Terrorgeist.

Rakariel
15-09-2013, 17:52
But you CAN do something against those units. If you don`t use the whole extent of your AB its not the fault of other units being good against certain parts of your army. Or should every other unit from every other book be less effective against every unit you can use? Because thats mostly what your argumentation boils down to.

You shouldn`t get pissed about the fact that if you use weaker lists you are having a harder time winning. You can still win, albeit its more difficult. I think its good however not everyone runs with an optimized list. But what you are asking for is that everyone else also just uses weaker lists so your weak list has a fair chance of winning. Better to be proud to win a few times with a weak list than to hate other lists for being strong.

Lord Solar Plexus
15-09-2013, 17:54
That's the problem: Fluff list meets "power" (strong/optimized...) list, cultures collide. At one level, you refuse to use all the tools your army book offers. That's totally legitimate, mind, but infantry will simply not catch flyers. You can try to defeat a TG with fireballs, or with chariots watching each other's back, or with one single tough flying character and not deviate completely from your theme. A Hellcannon can also help immensely.

Other than that, you will have to avoid such opponents one way or the other. It's not that he was unfair or cheated. I do feel with you but it's everyone's prerogative to use what they think is cool, just as it is yours.

Edit: Pretty much what Rakariel, Borgomos and others have said. Once more, I know the feeling, especially when one sees a combo for the first time. It's awful but it's completely within bounds.

Strongarm
15-09-2013, 18:00
My friend has just bought a Terrorgiest,I am yet to face it so cant really comment on its abilities just yet.But when I do play him next I will have that and a Zombie Dragon to deal with!

theunwantedbeing
15-09-2013, 19:05
I dont play with chimeras or demon princes. it's chaos WARRIORS. i run infantry. and i DID run into his units, and i did run up a huge cr. the units did crumble, and he STILL KILLED THEM ALL.

Your target priority needs altering then.
Magic the terrorgheist as soon as possible, the mortis engine should be next, the later you kill it the more deadly it's explosion upon death is and your army will likely suffer far more from it than his will.

Remember, you do get to overrun units that crumble to nothing if you charged that turn.
You do get ward saves the screams at least, so that is something if you can find a way to have them.

Rakariel
15-09-2013, 19:35
You could also use chariots to protect the flanks of your warrior blocks. Screen their flanks to be able to charge the TG when he comes in. And yes, as has been mentioned, the hellcannon is also a possibility to get rid of nasty stuff. And don`t let yourself be disheartened by units like the TG, its strong but if you use its disadvantages (not being able to march outside generals bubble, massive base - place your blocks so it can`t land easily, keep a tight formation) its doable as its not a broken unit, but when used right still very good against certain things.

@allmyownbattles
15-09-2013, 20:33
I dont play with chimeras or demon princes. it's chaos WARRIORS. i run infantry. and i DID run into his units, and i did run up a huge cr. the units did crumble, and he STILL KILLED THEM ALL.

Sounds a bit like a strop to me. Just have a think about your options and get a tweaked list ready to take him down next time. I've played about six or seven battles with my Beastmen so far and not won yet. I've not spat my dummy out though. I'm plotting and planning and cannot wait to play again. I spend ten times as much time thinking about my hobby as I do playing or painting. Think your way to victory!


I dont play with chimeras or demon princes. it's chaos WARRIORS.

This just makes you sound like an **** when everyone is trying to be helpful.

maze ironheart
15-09-2013, 20:49
I say the Terrorghiest is 1 of the only things to stand up to warrior's of chaos it could of been worse it could of been 2 terrorghiest or 3.It's good not to see a WoC army not doing the monster shuffle list.

Maoriboy007
15-09-2013, 21:56
That huge base and marching restrictions make it harder to maneuver than most fliers, hold back slightly and magic it to weaken its ability then countercharge it when it tries to get close enough to scream, it sucks in combat so it should be easy to smoosh it with warriors. Keeping your general in range of target units helps too.

The reason the terrorgheist can scream into combat is because its deathshreik has an 8" range. As most combats start by turn 3 its main weapon would be essentially worthless by the time the Terrorgheist got a chance to use it.

Voss
15-09-2013, 22:45
I dont play with chimeras or demon princes. it's chaos WARRIORS. i run infantry. and i DID run into his units, and i did run up a huge cr. the units did crumble, and he STILL KILLED THEM ALL.

Even so, you can still position your units so it has to land in front of at least one to shriek at them. As noted, it does have limits on its movement.

outbreak
15-09-2013, 22:47
as others have said, don't complain about a combo being overpowered if your using a restrictive list. WoC have plenty of weapons to beat this combo but your choosing not to use them.

ashc
15-09-2013, 22:50
Adapt or die I am afraid. WoC has plenty of ways to combat both units.

maze ironheart
15-09-2013, 23:15
But if he build's a all comers list then won't it be pointless to make fluffy army's yeah oh right don't complain when your fluffy army get's tabled but still.

Fear Ghoul
15-09-2013, 23:31
I dont play with chimeras or demon princes. it's chaos WARRIORS. i run infantry. and i DID run into his units, and i did run up a huge cr. the units did crumble, and he STILL KILLED THEM ALL.

If you choose to run only infantry and only Chaos Warriors then it's really only your own fault. There's nothing partiuclarly fluffy about it, you're just handicapping yourself.

Tuttivillus
15-09-2013, 23:34
I dont play with chimeras or demon princes. it's chaos WARRIORS. i run infantry. and i DID run into his units, and i did run up a huge cr. the units did crumble, and he STILL KILLED THEM ALL.

So stick one of Your WARRIOR on a proper steed (disc build or a monster comes to mind) ;) Don't tell me You are not running cavalry as well. What is Your fluff? "We are warriors disguised as a dwarves but without artillery?" :D So don't be mad that You are being outmanouverd by flying creature which is half as good in flying as other flying creatures in the game LOL.

Maoriboy007
15-09-2013, 23:35
But if he build's a all comers list then won't it be pointless to make fluffy army's yeah oh right don't complain when your fluffy army get's tabled but still.
Well first he has a couple of options, he could ask his opponent to play a reasonable fluffy list as well, a decent sort shouldn't mind doing so but you can't really complain if an opponent didn't know he was supposed to power down if all he knew was that he was going up against chaos who can be far more broken than anything that VC can field.
Second, what are you allowed to field in this fluff army? Do Knights and/or chariots count as warriors ? Take a couple of bare bones units and either should reasonably be able to charge a terrorghiest before it gets within scream range even a cheap unit of maurauder horse is actually a dangerous prospect for a terrorghiest.
If your all infantry, then line up your units and hold back to blast with magic (weakening the scream) and keep the landing zones in your front and your LD tight. He might get off one scream them smash him with a charge, a terrorghiest is NOT a dragon in combat regardless of its size.

Lets not forget how broken it seemed to him when you were apparently crumbling through his units with ease, warriors have their strengths after all, try and play towards them and force your opponent to do the same, that's what a lot of the game is about.

Sh4d0w
16-09-2013, 01:16
I dont play with chimeras or demon princes. it's chaos WARRIORS.

Tomb kings are called Tomb kings, Vampire counts are called Vampire counts what is your point O.O You can't expect to just walk over the top of someone with lots of infantry.

Jind_Singh
16-09-2013, 03:14
You can still prevail with an all infantry list IF your willing to change tactics - not list

Adding in some Warhounds or cav or chariots will help though to keep the undead at bay

Castling to one side of the board prevents being enveloped - having counterstrike units like chariots or marauders on horse on your flanks and rear prevent enemy units dancing around to your flanks

Overwhelming force as you concentrate units and focus on one undead unit at a time while pinning down order units wills enable you to win the combats that you want

Lore of Slaanesh is also decent as you can reduce enemy movement to 1D6 random movement - slowing them down

Knights or Skull Crushers will also enable you to deal with terrors - Knights with lances and a flamin banner will make short work of one, even ensorcelled weapons can help (which can't make use of flamin banner)

Either way don't give up - I took a fluffy all goblin list as got tables by gun line empire - and wasn't fun - but I see how I can adapt my set up and tactics to take him on next time...I don't see a win but I think Ivan figure out how to beat him by game 3

Don't give up - keep your chin up!

3eland
16-09-2013, 04:05
Technically they are called "Warriors of Chaos", which last I read, everything in the book is a "warrior" of some sort (even the dogs are bred for battle), and they are gifted with the marks of "chaos". So, luckily for you you can take anything from the book!

However on a side note, why wouldn't you take something other than warriors? Chaos knights are regular warriors with a cool steed, juggernauts are regular warriors riding bad ass behemoth steeds in the name of khorne, chaos lords and heros are regular warriors (well, pretty much). I fail to see how you cannot implement something from the book to help.

Soundwave
16-09-2013, 04:43
Yeah everyones points are valid. Warriors need to be patient sometimes i know its hard but movment and positioning is key. Also try breaking big blocks into smaller so they have more options. You dont need a list change just a re-work with varying tactics to try out. Do not think of it as a cheesy no win situation look at it as a challenge and instead of win or loss situations work on smaller margins like not looseing by so much each time a form of damage control.Little by little this way it raises your awareness as to what worked and what did not and before you know it you will have a really good counter.

SteveW
16-09-2013, 05:05
Did the TS also not use any magic? It isn't hard to magic off a terrorgiest.

Kain187
16-09-2013, 05:56
Does anyone else read this and think "Dam this wall is so OP why wont my fist break through it." other guy "just walk around it bro." poster "I dont walk around stuff!!" lol

Urgat
16-09-2013, 06:59
Hellcannons should fit in your fluff at least, have you tried them? Though I don't quite get it, I run a goblin army, doesn't prevent me from running trolls or giants if I feel like it, they'd be part of the army in the fluff too. A DP used to be a chaos warrior, if anything, it's even more at home in the CW list than in the demon one, if you ask me.

Strongarm
16-09-2013, 11:21
You can still prevail with an all infantry list IF your willing to change tactics - not list

Adding in some Warhounds or cav or chariots will help though to keep the undead at bay

Castling to one side of the board prevents being enveloped - having counterstrike units like chariots or marauders on horse on your flanks and rear prevent enemy units dancing around to your flanks

Overwhelming force as you concentrate units and focus on one undead unit at a time while pinning down order units wills enable you to win the combats that you want

Lore of Slaanesh is also decent as you can reduce enemy movement to 1D6 random movement - slowing them down

Knights or Skull Crushers will also enable you to deal with terrors - Knights with lances and a flamin banner will make short work of one, even ensorcelled weapons can help (which can't make use of flamin banner)

Either way don't give up - I took a fluffy all goblin list as got tables by gun line empire - and wasn't fun - but I see how I can adapt my set up and tactics to take him on next time...I don't see a win but I think Ivan figure out how to beat him by game 3

Don't give up - keep your chin up!

As soon as you add Warhounds,or chariots and marauders horsemen his list is no longer all infantry.The only way a WOC all infantry army would realistically win,would be when facing an all infantry enemy.Just my opinion

Lord Solar Plexus
16-09-2013, 11:34
Does anyone else read this and think "Dam this wall is so OP why wont my fist break through it." other guy "just walk around it bro." poster "I dont walk around stuff!!" lol

Nah, that's a little too harsh. It's quite legitimate to adhere to a certain theme and what feels right for any given list is much more ephemeral than a wall. It all depends where you come from. Some stuff can really seem nasty, especially when it comes totally unexpected.

zoggin-eck
16-09-2013, 11:54
This just makes you sound like an **** when everyone is trying to be helpful.

Yeah, I'm not sure if it's how it really is, but you do come across like that. I may as well say I play NIGHT GOBLINS when asked why I don't have any squigs, trolls, giants, pump wagons etc.

Azaireal
16-09-2013, 14:22
-------------[Big Block]------------
---------------space--------------
[small block]----7"+----[small block]

Terrorgheist should be hard pressed to get enough of your models if you are threatening charges after it moves into position. Two or three screams maybe. Deploy wide to keep larger threat zones with the smaller units, combat reform for efficiency in the second round (if necessary). The Terrorgheist can fly around the smaller units, but this gives the larger unit more time to get business done.

Dreyer
16-09-2013, 15:09
Remember, you do get to overrun units that crumble to nothing if you charged that turn.


Huh I thought they Faqed that you couldnt overrun a crumbling unit?

Lord Shadowheart
16-09-2013, 15:35
Huh I thought they Faqed that you couldnt overrun a crumbling unit?

They did, then changed their minds in the following FAQ.

Soundwave
16-09-2013, 15:43
They did, then changed their minds in the following FAQ.

Faq faqued? Serious!!!

Scammel
16-09-2013, 19:20
Nah, that's a little too harsh. It's quite legitimate to adhere to a certain theme and what feels right for any given list is much more ephemeral than a wall. It all depends where you come from. Some stuff can really seem nasty, especially when it comes totally unexpected.

You might have a bit more of a point if, say, he were asking how to take down a Blenderbus. A single Terrorgeist and a single Mortis Engine isn't exploitive/spammy/overpowered in any way, it's a pair of units that the OP lost to and thus decreed OP.

Ullis
16-09-2013, 20:12
I had never played against that crap before, and had, what i feel was my least enjoyable warhammer game ever. It's a game that, since i have no cannons (I play WoC) i have zero chance of winning. my opponent bunkered his skelly/zombies around the mortis engine, flew all around me with the 'Giest, and shouted my army apart. there was nothing i could do. i got into close combat, and my army evaporated from the engine and the shouts. he didnt even need to kill many chaos warriors with his incredible badass vampire. my guys just died. how is that supposed to be fun? The 'Giest being able to scream into CC is BROKEN. total crap. ugh.

It is quite possible to stick to a Chaos Warrior themed army and still be balanced/competitive. You do not have to resort to the cheesy Daemon Prince/Chimera build or Throgg lead troll hordes to be successful (despite what you might read on the internet).

Chaos Warriors, Knights, Chosen, Forsaken, Chaos Lords, Sorcerers, Skullcrushers and both types of chariots are all essentially Warriors in different guises. A list constructed from these choices and a Hellcannon would be quite viable and more than a match of the Terrorgheist/Mortis Engine.

I would not dream of building an Empire list entirely from State Troops and expect to win often. While I applaud your desire to stick to traditional Warriors of Chaos, you do need to broaden your definition of what a Chaos Warrior is.

ashc
16-09-2013, 20:14
You might have a bit more of a point if, say, he were asking how to take down a Blenderbus. A single Terrorgeist and a single Mortis Engine isn't exploitive/spammy/overpowered in any way, it's a pair of units that the OP lost to and thus decreed OP.

This was my original thought too. Taking a single Mortis and Terrorgeist is hardly some kind of gamebreaking combo, or spammable cheese.

Captain Collius
16-09-2013, 20:20
As has been Said take a few knight units and chariots the deploy them to cover one another on the flank. These are just warriors on mounts so you stick to theme. Problem solved. Hell every time my High Elves ran into it A unit of dragon princes destroyed it everytime.

Also the hellcannon can kill it or neuter its effectiveness.

SteveW
16-09-2013, 20:57
My VC gaming buddy stopped bringing his mortis engine because I always blow it up while he's bunkered around it.

Lordcypress
17-09-2013, 00:43
@Foenasher,

This is exactly what I told you about some of the weakness in your army when you posted it in the Army Lists section. Your units are only 12 Warriors strong. Not enough staying power in a grind fest. Undead don't run away. They don't flee. Either they kill you or you kill them.

3eland
17-09-2013, 03:56
@Foenasher,

This is exactly what I told you about some of the weakness in your army when you posted it in the Army Lists section. Your units are only 12 Warriors strong. Not enough staying power in a grind fest. Undead don't run away. They don't crumble. Either they kill you or you kill them.

I decided to go check out his thread after reading this and had a laugh, the whole thread was him going on at how it was destroying everything and blah blah blah and then he writes this thread complaining how he got floored...

GrandmasterWang
17-09-2013, 07:25
Does anyone else read this and think "Dam this wall is so OP why wont my fist break through it." other guy "just walk around it bro." poster "I dont walk around stuff!!" lol

Maybe the tc wants to actually be able to break the wall with his fist and is hoping for help with that?

I can see where tc is coming from however him saying he had ZERO chance to win vs 1 terror gheist didnt do him any favours.

Remember the gheist can only scream in its own shooting phase so make the best of your own combat phase to crumble undead. Also the gheist is massive and can only affect 1 combat at a time

Lord Solar Plexus
17-09-2013, 07:49
Well, the OP's apparently gone awol, so the "debate" has pretty much run its course... ;)

Fear Ghoul
17-09-2013, 10:11
I checked out his army list in the army list section, which leads me to three conclusions:

1. He/she obviously has no problem destroying their opponents, otherwise they wouldn't have boasted about it in the army list section.

2. The army list isn't particularly good in my opinion, unless there is something very specific about his/her meta I'm not understanding. Nearly all the Lord points have been spent on both a Chaos Lord and Chaos Sorceror lord, leaving precious little points for any kind of substantial Chaos Warrior units (they are 12 large) that can weather enemy attacks. The Chosen are also only 10 large, meaning a single Terrorgheist scream basically destroys a third of the unit on average each turn.

3. The list includes Warhounds, Chariots, and Chaos Knights so the assertion that he/she only plays infantry and Chaos Warriors is entirely incorrect.

In summary the OP took a (in my opinion) substandard list to game thinking it was curb-stomping but got destroyed by two units in the Vampire Count army that specialize in fighting MSU, even thought he had several options available in his list which could have mitigated against the Terrorgheist at least (Chaos Lord, Chaos Sorceror Lord, Chaos Knights).

Wesser
17-09-2013, 12:46
Ah, leave off guys

He just lost a game and maybe the terrorgheist were just a high-roller.

Likely he just came to vent some steam with no particular agenda. Even the best of us is guilty of that:

Example:

"Did your Beasts of Nurgle just save 14 out of 15 wounds from my Blood Knights!!??. Argh, my unit crumbled to death... Beasts of Nurgle are soo #%% OP!!!"

Rant is rant and maybe we should just leave it at that :)

maze ironheart
17-09-2013, 13:02
Faq faqued? Serious!!!

Thats cause they think on the spot they don't even test to see how it work's out.

Lord Solar Plexus
17-09-2013, 13:44
Yep. Very flexible company.

quietus1986
17-09-2013, 18:32
you would hate my fluff list. My fluff list is 2 terrorgheists :D. strigoi list :D.

maze ironheart
17-09-2013, 18:41
you would hate my fluff list. My fluff list is 2 terrorgheists :D. strigoi list :D.

I too have a strigoi list but it has only 1 terrorghiest as my usual opponent hates the one I have now so imagine how he'll feel with 2.

SteveW
17-09-2013, 18:51
I just lost a game to a two terrorgheist list. I was running an all goblin(forest) list with two Aracks and everything got screamed off the table :/

Urgat
17-09-2013, 19:57
you would hate my fluff list. My fluff list is 2 terrorgheists :D. strigoi list :D.

Funny how you didn't choose the varghulf :p Didn't it fit the list too? :p No, not even one? :p

quietus1986
19-09-2013, 16:27
Got 2 varghulfs to just prefer the 2 terrorgheis list at the moment. Like to change my list around even my fluff lists. Don't like playing the same list over and over. And it make's it harder for my opponent to know what I will be fielding :D

Ramius4
19-09-2013, 17:45
Got 2 varghulfs to just prefer the 2 terrorgheis list at the moment. Like to change my list around even my fluff lists. Don't like playing the same list over and over. And it make's it harder for my opponent to know what I will be fielding :D

Same here, I never play the same army list twice in a row. In fact, I rarely ever use the same list twice at all (unless I'm forced to for a tourney, but I avoid playing those these days.)

BigbyWolf
19-09-2013, 17:54
I dont play with chimeras or demon princes. it's chaos WARRIORS. i run infantry. and i DID run into his units, and i did run up a huge cr. the units did crumble, and he STILL KILLED THEM ALL.

So basically, you went up against a powerful build VC army, delibarately not taking certain choices in your army book, and got beaten?

Excuse me while I cut off my foot and then challenge Usain Bolt to a sprint...

Ramius4
19-09-2013, 18:01
Excuse me while I cut off my foot and then challenge Usain Bolt to a sprint...

Funny analogy :p

Although in fairness, unless you happen to be a world class sprinter, I'm pretty sure you could keep the foot and it would still be a lost cause.

SteveW
19-09-2013, 19:48
Funny analogy :p

Although in fairness, unless you happen to be a world class sprinter, I'm pretty sure you could keep the foot and it would still be a lost cause.

He might have a better chance by throwing his severed foot at Mr. Bolt.

Ramius4
19-09-2013, 20:08
He might have a better chance by throwing his severed foot at Mr. Bolt.

LOL! All I know is, I NEVER want to have a foot race against anyone with the last name Bolt!

Captain Collius
19-09-2013, 21:59
He might have a better chance by throwing his severed foot at Mr. Bolt.

Only on a Warhammer forum.


Yes he is gimping himself and crying. If you play a limited list you must accept there are things you can't deal with. I used to play a 5 Stegadon list it could not deal with some armies to make my LM competitive I have had to open my mind to new options.

Torga_DW
19-09-2013, 22:15
okay people, nothing more to see here. Lets all fill in the paperwork and file this under 'closed'.

Maoriboy007
20-09-2013, 00:04
okay people, nothing more to see here. Lets all fill in the paperwork and file this under 'closed'.:cool:Thou art a mighty deity for bringing such awesomeness to our world , "butt for the ******** god"

Terrorgheigts are overrated anyway ;)

Foegnasher
20-09-2013, 04:18
ok, let me clear the air before i start addressing these.

This was supposed to be a freindly little 3 game tourney, 2k points, bring something fun to play against. i did not bring my usual list. the point where the game stopped being fun was when, dispite doing what i needed to get into close combat and do what I do with my army, a pair of models killed off the whole mess without a) rolling to hit b) rolling to wound or c) allowing my rank and file a armor save at all. what else in warhammer does that? into combat? i say again, HOT GARBAGE. let's get into some of these criticisms.


But if he build's a all comers list then won't it be pointless to make fluffy army's yeah oh right don't complain when your fluffy army get's tabled but still.

i get that. i do. my all Nurgle all the time list is going to be a bad draw against some armies, and kick others in the teeth. valid point. i am not optimizing my list in any way.


If you choose to run only infantry and only Chaos Warriors then it's really only your own fault. There's nothing partiuclarly fluffy about it, you're just handicapping yourself.

I usually run a little cav, chariot, and some hounds to help draw fire. the list works pretty good, i do have trouble with big mobile monsters. but i refuse to play with ridiculous models that are nigh unkillable and no fun for my opponent to play against. (i'm looking at you, tricked out demon prince/2 chimera lists)


Yeah, I'm not sure if it's how it really is, but you do come across like that. I may as well say I play NIGHT GOBLINS when asked why I don't have any squigs, trolls, giants, pump wagons etc.

again. haveing fun is why i play. if my opponent isnt haveing as much fun as i am, i think it'sbogus. when i look at a list like most people here are suggesting. (why dont you max out the best things in your book?) that's crap. i shouldn't have to play with the same demon/chimera/skullcrusher list that every other WAAC WoC player says i should play.


@Foenasher,

This is exactly what I told you about some of the weakness in your army when you posted it in the Army Lists section. Your units are only 12 Warriors strong. Not enough staying power in a grind fest. Undead don't run away. They don't flee. Either they kill you or you kill them.

and against most things, i can wear them down. with buffed magic, those 12 guys are *******' tough. but my army isnt really why i'm bitching. it's an effect that has no casting cost, no roll to hit, and no roll to wound that i find bogus. give it a casting value and make it a spell. make it roll to wound. ANYTHING but "i roll a 12 and you lost 8 more wounds" oops. there went your 1+ knights that are t4 and cause fear. that's horsecrap.


I decided to go check out his thread after reading this and had a laugh, the whole thread was him going on at how it was destroying everything and blah blah blah and then he writes this thread complaining how he got floored...

you werent there. and i said i do ok because most people dont see it coming. i dont floor everyone. i win about half my games, but they are all competative and fun. except for the one in question.


I checked out his army list in the army list section, which leads me to three conclusions:

1. He/she obviously has no problem destroying their opponents, otherwise they wouldn't have boasted about it in the army list section.

2. The army list isn't particularly good in my opinion, unless there is something very specific about his/her meta I'm not understanding. Nearly all the Lord points have been spent on both a Chaos Lord and Chaos Sorceror lord, leaving precious little points for any kind of substantial Chaos Warrior units (they are 12 large) that can weather enemy attacks. The Chosen are also only 10 large, meaning a single Terrorgheist scream basically destroys a third of the unit on average each turn.

3. The list includes Warhounds, Chariots, and Chaos Knights so the assertion that he/she only plays infantry and Chaos Warriors is entirely incorrect.

In summary the OP took a (in my opinion) substandard list to game thinking it was curb-stomping but got destroyed by two units in the Vampire Count army that specialize in fighting MSU, even thought he had several options available in his list which could have mitigated against the Terrorgheist at least (Chaos Lord, Chaos Sorceror Lord, Chaos Knights).

thanks for your well thought out and reasoned analysis. my "substandard" list won 4th place.


Ah, leave off guys

He just lost a game and maybe the terrorgheist were just a high-roller.

Likely he just came to vent some steam with no particular agenda. Even the best of us is guilty of that:

Example:

"Did your Beasts of Nurgle just save 14 out of 15 wounds from my Blood Knights!!??. Argh, my unit crumbled to death... Beasts of Nurgle are soo #%% OP!!!"

Rant is rant and maybe we should just leave it at that :)

thanks. exactly.


So basically, you went up against a powerful build VC army, delibarately not taking certain choices in your army book, and got beaten?

Excuse me while I cut off my foot and then challenge Usain Bolt to a sprint...

again. had no idea who i would be facing. we were encouraged to be friendly. that crao is not fun, not even remotely. and i can have fun loseing. one of the funnest games i ever had, i lost 2700 to zip against a dwarf list with my skaven. i had fun, i got whacked, but it was fair. the scream power doesnt seem fair at all to me. just saying. you may continue defameing my army choice and or life choices.

Shadeseraph
20-09-2013, 04:51
I understand your point: You field a "fun" army, and you expected your enemy to do so, as the context was a friendly tourney.

The point is that someone's cheese is another's fun list. Double 'geists, triple riptide and tooled DPs are quite common where I play. I consider my own list fairly "soft" for that environment, with a single frost phoenix, level 4 with book, no banner and no kitted character, but maybe for you that's a "non-fun" list. As others have posted, 'geist+mortis engine is a solid list, but in no way the most cheesy thing VC can field.

Maoriboy007
20-09-2013, 05:20
This was supposed to be a freindly little 3 game tourney, 2k points, bring something fun to play against.Then the problem is not t hat there is anything wrong with the terrorgheist but that perhaps your opponent didn't abide by the conditions of the battle you had agreed apon. Although I have to wonder did you just expect to have some of your infantry and some of his infantry to just go head to head? because that is not what I would call a fair fight.

i did not bring my usual list. the point where the game stopped being fun was when, dispite doing what i needed to get into close combat and do what I do with my army,In other words you bowled headfirst into his trap and expected to simply smash him? If your opponent lets you get away with it that its probably a trap. You were expecting a clear advantage and didn't get it so.....

a pair of models killed off the whole mess without a) rolling to hit b) rolling to wound or c) allowing my rank and file a armor save at all. Id have to have seen this to believe it, and you got suckered, but were your own troops going quietly into that good night? I bet not. Chaos tend to hit first on 3s wound on 2s or better and rarely allow any kind of saves, and that's on their standard troops.

what else in warhammer does that? into combat? Spells , Breath Weapons , Troll Vomit and for all intents and purposes, Chaos Warriors. Have you never faced a Terrorghies or heard how they work? What did you do to mitigates its effect before it got within that mighty 8"range? Where was your general, did you have decent Ld anywhere nearby?There are a lot of things you can still do to combat this threat if you know what to look out for, but if you're unprepared its going to be a really nasty surprise.

I usually run a little cav, chariot, and some hounds to help draw fire. the list works pretty good, i do have trouble with big mobile monsters. So do undead, and they have a lot of trouble VS high WS and Armour, terrorgheist are one of the few options they have,

but i refuse to play with ridiculous models that are nigh unkillable and no fun for my opponent to play against. (i'm looking at you, tricked out demon prince/2 chimera lists) And I can respect you for that , don't forget to add hellcannons to that list.


again. haveing fun is why i play. if my opponent isnt haveing as much fun as i am, i think it'sbogus. Agains that's respectable, but that's not how its coming across, it sounds like you expected to trounce your opponent and he pulled his ace out and took the game. It can be really hard facing chaos without the tools to do so, as my TKs can attest.

when i look at a list like most people here are suggesting. (why dont you max out the best things in your book?) that's crap. i shouldn't have to play with the same demon/chimera/skullcrusher list that every other WAAC WoC player says i should play Not at all, its simply that you can't complain when he is bringing his A game and you refuse to, we can respect that but your opponent and whatever he brings is blameless. He bought one of the few effective devices he had against you and you didn't bring your counters. Even then we have pointed out that you did have solutions and there were weakness' in your opponants game here (range, base size , march restrictions, bad in combat), we are assuming you might not be familiar with them.
.
and against most things, i can wear them down. with buffed magic, those 12 guys are *******' tough. but my army isnt really why i'm bitching.sorry but it comes across as "my army of awesomeness didn't smash my opponent this sucks!"
.
it's an effect that has no casting cost, no roll to hit, and no roll to wound that i find bogus.Its got short range , allows other saves, is limited by Ld and the wounds on the monster using it, a monster that is one of the weaker combat monsters in the game BTW .

give it a casting value and make it a spell. make it roll to wound. ANYTHING but "i roll a 12 and you lost 8 more wounds" oops. there went your 1+ knights that are t4 and cause fear. that's horsecrap..Sure, give it better range and take the march restrictions off the terrorgheist too.


.
again. had no idea who i would be facing. we were encouraged to be friendly. that crao is not fun, not even remotely. and i can have fun loseing. one of the funnest games i ever had, i lost 2700 to zip against a dwarf list with my skaven. i had fun, i got whacked, but it was fair. the scream power doesnt seem fair at all to me. just saying. you may continue defameing my army choice and or life choices.I've gone up against Chaos lists that were zero fun to play against, there are just times that that happens, see how much fun your opponent has when you send a purple sun across his bows, now that sucks.

Torga_DW
20-09-2013, 06:32
This was supposed to be a freindly little 3 game tourney, 2k points, bring something fun to play against. i did not bring my usual list. the point where the game stopped being fun was when, dispite doing what i needed to get into close combat and do what I do with my army, a pair of models killed off the whole mess without a) rolling to hit b) rolling to wound or c) allowing my rank and file a armor save at all. what else in warhammer does that? into combat? i say again, HOT GARBAGE. let's get into some of these criticisms.

Thats kind of the thing about warhammer (and gw games in general), why grumbling longbeards (like me) like to grumble about it into their beards (can i just take a moment to say this excludes the actual bearded one. He's the most undwarf-like dwarf (picture) i've ever seen). Situations like you described happen quite a bit, you've just become aware of this one because it hit you personally. You want another example of this sort of thing? Banner of the (matt) ward save if you're a daemon player.



I usually run a little cav, chariot, and some hounds to help draw fire. the list works pretty good, i do have trouble with big mobile monsters. but i refuse to play with ridiculous models that are nigh unkillable and no fun for my opponent to play against. (i'm looking at you, tricked out demon prince/2 chimera lists)

I saw your list. The first thing that came to mind was that opening scene from the original conan movie, with james earl jones and his crew showing up to kill arnie's tribe. Again, why people like me complain that there's such a massive disparity between internal balance in army books. Nevermind external balance between them. If you want a fluffy list thats decently competitive, you have a couple of army choices and thats it. Again, why many people complain on the net about it. Welcome to darkfall, subscribe if you really want to.

Also, your list gave me the impression a bit of 6th ed chaos warriors, which i imagine would have performed a little better at the time with what you had.



again. haveing fun is why i play. if my opponent isnt haveing as much fun as i am, i think it'sbogus. when i look at a list like most people here are suggesting. (why dont you max out the best things in your book?) that's crap. i shouldn't have to play with the same demon/chimera/skullcrusher list that every other WAAC WoC player says i should play.

Fun is subjective, but yeah, this is why people talk about a tighter ruleset. There will always be players who like to game the game, thats why you need good rules. Incidently, has the arachnarok/thundertusk shooting of warmachine type weapons vs conventional weapons questions ever been faqed? Genuinely curious, but i suspect not, and not worth me digging around for. I always liked the official butchers and magic armour rules should be played RAW, but if you do that you're not playing RAI faq update for ogres. That really was a noticeable moment, in my opinion.



and against most things, i can wear them down. with buffed magic, those 12 guys are *******' tough. but my army isnt really why i'm bitching. it's an effect that has no casting cost, no roll to hit, and no roll to wound that i find bogus. give it a casting value and make it a spell. make it roll to wound. ANYTHING but "i roll a 12 and you lost 8 more wounds" oops. there went your 1+ knights that are t4 and cause fear. that's horsecrap.

you werent there. and i said i do ok because most people dont see it coming. i dont floor everyone. i win about half my games, but they are all competative and fun. except for the one in question.

thanks for your well thought out and reasoned analysis. my "substandard" list won 4th place.

Thats the thing about meta. I've taken army lists that were really good in one place, and sucked really hard somewhere else. Again, i attribute a fair part of this to the ruleset.



again. had no idea who i would be facing. we were encouraged to be friendly. that crao is not fun, not even remotely. and i can have fun loseing. one of the funnest games i ever had, i lost 2700 to zip against a dwarf list with my skaven. i had fun, i got whacked, but it was fair. the scream power doesnt seem fair at all to me. just saying. you may continue defameing my army choice and or life choices.

I like humanity, its the people i can't stand. [/brokenrecord] needs less broken and abusable ruleset [/brokenrecord]. But.... this is warhammer, and as far as i can tell its been like this long before I started playing. You had a ******** moment. Everyone does. Ask people here, i've certainly done it. Fill in the paperwork and file it under closed. Build a bridge, get over it. And remember what it feels like the next time you see someone else acting ******** about something. Life sucks sometimes, don't take it personally. :)

edit: typo

Scammel
20-09-2013, 06:58
This was supposed to be a freindly little 3 game tourney, 2k points, bring something fun to play against. i did not bring my usual list.

Sure. Just so you know, a single Terrorgeist and Mortis Engine is also completely friendly. It's just a random pair of units. Not exploitive, not spammy, not nothing.


i refuse to play with ridiculous models that are nigh unkillable and no fun for my opponent to play against. (i'm looking at you, tricked out demon prince/2 chimera lists)


You don't have to. Running a single Chimera/Disc Rider/Prince (and that's all you need if you can lock the 'Geist in combat early) is also not exploitive/unfair in any which way.


that's horsecrap.


:cries:

ashc
20-09-2013, 07:02
Sure. Just so you know, a single Terrorgeist and Mortis Engine is also completely friendly. It's just a random pair of units. Not exploitive, not spammy, not nothing.

That is my opinion too, Scammel. I want to get a Mortis engine and a Terrorgeist for my vamps, I don't think it makes me a beardy git for wanting to do so.

Juicy21
20-09-2013, 09:55
It might be just me but when i play bretonnians sure double terrorgheist is hard but you have to addept your playstyle.. You just cant expect your warriors to kill a terrorgheist.. use magic/fastcav/chims etc then you will see its not that hard to beat.

jaxom
20-09-2013, 20:35
As a WoC player who tries to play "fluffy" I have a lot of sympathy for the OP but I have to point out...

Even without the Mortis Engine you'd have had a similar bad result. You brought a friendly list that had no way to cope with a mobile monster. As has been pointed out, the Terrogheist has risks and weaknesses. You just didn't have any kind of counter for it and you probably knew that when you designed your list.

Even without the typical netlist you could have countered this by building a "better" list. Taking a half-kitted Daemon Prince or a single Chimera would have slowed down this VC list a lot and would still be considered "friendly" by most players.

I think Torga probably said it best recently... Every player has a different idea of what a "Friendly" is and it's very common to find that if you are trying to close holes in a list you will wind up getting tougher and tougher until someone decides that it is no longer a friendly list. E.G. bringing one flying monster to deal with a monster like the Terrorgheist or a Skaven Abom means that you're throwing points away against a two-cannon Dwarf list (something that I consider borderline but still usually friendly unless it has a lot more war machine and shooting support). So then you add another target for the two-cannon opponent, either another flier or a group of MoCav. Now you're pushing the limits of good taste and someone else feels justified in bringing an Abom, a Seer on a Bell and a couple of war machines and you're pretty much out of the regime *I* call friendly but other people are still thinking "It's not net lists so we're still playing friendlies" and has no problems with things.

Foegnasher
20-09-2013, 21:19
As a WoC player who tries to play "fluffy" I have a lot of sympathy for the OP but I have to point out...

Even without the Mortis Engine you'd have had a similar bad result. You brought a friendly list that had no way to cope with a mobile monster. As has been pointed out, the Terrogheist has risks and weaknesses. You just didn't have any kind of counter for it and you probably knew that when you designed your list.

Even without the typical netlist you could have countered this by building a "better" list. Taking a half-kitted Daemon Prince or a single Chimera would have slowed down this VC list a lot and would still be considered "friendly" by most players.

I think Torga probably said it best recently... Every player has a different idea of what a "Friendly" is and it's very common to find that if you are trying to close holes in a list you will wind up getting tougher and tougher until someone decides that it is no longer a friendly list. E.G. bringing one flying monster to deal with a monster like the Terrorgheist or a Skaven Abom means that you're throwing points away against a two-cannon Dwarf list (something that I consider borderline but still usually friendly unless it has a lot more war machine and shooting support). So then you add another target for the two-cannon opponent, either another flier or a group of MoCav. Now you're pushing the limits of good taste and someone else feels justified in bringing an Abom, a Seer on a Bell and a couple of war machines and you're pretty much out of the regime *I* call friendly but other people are still thinking "It's not net lists so we're still playing friendlies" and has no problems with things.

I refer to this as "Filth Creep"> making filthier and filthier lists to counter each other until you stopped having fun 4-5 games back. in my 2K freindly list i had a unit of 3 dragon ogres to try to squish big things. they could never catch the giest between his flying and screening it with single blocks of spirit hosts. so, you know what happened.

SteveW
20-09-2013, 21:55
A unit of 5 marauder horsemen with mark of khorn and flails can do some damage to it and two units of them should be enough to catch and kill it.

theunwantedbeing
20-09-2013, 22:15
A unit of 5 marauder horsemen with mark of khorn and flails can do some damage to it and two units of them should be enough to catch and kill it.

It's plenty possible to hide the thing within the army where it's literally impossible to get at by foot troops.
That and place it where it can easily reach the target unit with it's scream attack (as it can hit combat, it only has to be in range of the front of the unit it's sat behind)

Without ranged magic, you'de have to kill your way to it in combat.
Which is where it just yells at you and that's exactly what it wants to do.

It's not exactly cheesy, barring how it screams into combat and ignores the general "no attacking into combats you're not part of" rule that virtually everything else has to abide by.
There are of curse lots of way cheesier things to do....like a banshee wall doing the same thing.

Grammaticus Bane
20-09-2013, 22:38
I know the Terrorgheist flies and all...but a T6 6 Wound 6+ Regen huge base monster...not very "nigh-unkillable". Even with the Mortis Engine, 5+ Regen?

I understand you didn't have much to catch him, but if you had lined up even a chariot at him, he would have bit the dust. He is a frail, frail beastie. He might scream nicely, but remember he can only scream in his own shooting phase. In combat he has to use is WS3 Str 5 3-4 attacks...which won't do much to, say, a chariot or knights.

Grammaticus Bane
20-09-2013, 22:39
Oh, and if you do a few wounds to him, his scream becomes nigh-useless.

Phazael
20-09-2013, 22:52
On the one hand, scream spam lists are BS and anyone with half a brain knows this. On the other hand, two screaming models that are not even hiding in units are not even close to spamming screams and anyone with half a brain knows this. Watching your ******** feed on itself like a cascading warp core breach is amusing and all, but I am guessing that the thought never occurred to you that the vampire guy does not exactly find the idea of nurgle warriors blowing through his skellies like a lawn mower through dry reeds fun in the least, either. There are times when people are cheesing out and times when it is matchup. In neither instance is this sort of public nerd raging appropriate, but this is a case of the latter.

SteveW
20-09-2013, 23:37
It's plenty possible to hide the thing within the army where it's literally impossible to get at by foot troops.
That and place it where it can easily reach the target unit with it's scream attack (as it can hit combat, it only has to be in range of the front of the unit it's sat behind)

Without ranged magic, you'de have to kill your way to it in combat.
Which is where it just yells at you and that's exactly what it wants to do.

It's not exactly cheesy, barring how it screams into combat and ignores the general "no attacking into combats you're not part of" rule that virtually everything else has to abide by.
There are of curse lots of way cheesier things to do....like a banshee wall doing the same thing.

My usual gaming partner is a two terror and three banshee kind of guy. he totally screamed off my whole army last game and copied my happy dance from our previous game.

Whaagnomore
21-09-2013, 00:04
I agree that the terrorgheist's scream is kind of ********, but look at it like this. Had you played any army with artillery of any kind, the terrorgheist would've struggled to make his points. And then your opponent could have just as well started a thread like "OK, the cannon/engineer combo is utter E*****T!"
As a VC-player I tend to go with two terrorgheists because one will get shot off in turn 1-2, not because they are killy, but because they are my only real shooting.
Since you wanna go a "human" only army, I guess you could turn to lore of slaanesh and give the terrorgheist random movement, would pin it down long enough to pop a charge at it.

DeathlessDraich
21-09-2013, 11:01
I had never played against that crap before, and had, what i feel was my least enjoyable warhammer game ever. It's a game that, since i have no cannons (I play WoC) i have zero chance of winning. my opponent bunkered his skelly/zombies around the mortis engine, flew all around me with the 'Giest, and shouted my army apart. there was nothing i could do. i got into close combat, and my army evaporated from the engine and the shouts. he didnt even need to kill many chaos warriors with his incredible badass vampire. my guys just died. how is that supposed to be fun? The 'Giest being able to scream into CC is BROKEN. total crap. ugh.

:) Hi - even with a nearly all infantry army you should have the upper hand

A) Looking at the VC list -
With Rare at 22% + 25% Core + Characters (about 20-25% min. normally) - that leaves about 500 pts for the good combat units in Special - either 1 big block or 2 blocks of around 20 Grave Guard or maybe GG + Crypt Horrors. 12 CH would be the best choice for him but that would mean only 2 combat blocks!
I don't consider this VC list to be strong and definitely weaker than the standard VC list.
i.e. this VC list is weaker in combat against WOC

30 Khorne Warriors will defeat any of those VC blocks in 2 or 3 rounds of combat leaving the door open for a direct attack on the Terrogheist or Mortis Engine (which he should have been sheltering behind battle lines as long as poss and avoiding combat).

B) Terrogheist
a) Death Shriek - needs LOS and can only target enemy units in combat provided it is in base contac with that unit.
Therefore expect 2 rounds of Death Shrieks - easily absorbed - about 10 wounds altogether. If you manoeuvre & shelter correctly without exposing the same unit to the Death Shriek you should have 2 units reduced by about 5 wounds each - no problems if your combat blocks are at the right size.
Alternatively, sheltering your main blocks behind a line of Sacrificial Warhounds as you march into enemy territory also works. (unless your interpretation of TLOS is the unjust/impractical version)

c) Mortis Engine
a) Not a threat in turns 1 and 2 - S1 or S2 hits. The 6+ Regen rule is ineffective unless he has Crypt Horrors - which is easily negated by your unit with Flaming attacks - assuming you have correctly included one?
b) In turn 3 or 4 the Mortis Engine Aura hits (S3and S4) become significant. D6 hits however should be easily absorbed by all except maybe 1 of your weaker units - so no problems.

Good luck the next time :)

spagg
22-09-2013, 03:34
:) Hi - even with a nearly all infantry army you should have the upper hand

A) Looking at the VC list -
With Rare at 22% + 25% Core + Characters (about 20-25% min. normally) - that leaves about 500 pts for the good combat units in Special - either 1 big block or 2 blocks of around 20 Grave Guard or maybe GG + Crypt Horrors. 12 CH would be the best choice for him but that would mean only 2 combat blocks!
I don't consider this VC list to be strong and definitely weaker than the standard VC list.
i.e. this VC list is weaker in combat against WOC

30 Khorne Warriors will defeat any of those VC blocks in 2 or 3 rounds of combat leaving the door open for a direct attack on the Terrogheist or Mortis Engine (which he should have been sheltering behind battle lines as long as poss and avoiding combat).

B) Terrogheist
a) Death Shriek - needs LOS and can only target enemy units in combat provided it is in base contac with that unit.
Therefore expect 2 rounds of Death Shrieks - easily absorbed - about 10 wounds altogether. If you manoeuvre & shelter correctly without exposing the same unit to the Death Shriek you should have 2 units reduced by about 5 wounds each - no problems if your combat blocks are at the right size.
Alternatively, sheltering your main blocks behind a line of Sacrificial Warhounds as you march into enemy territory also works. (unless your interpretation of TLOS is the unjust/impractical version)

c) Mortis Engine
a) Not a threat in turns 1 and 2 - S1 or S2 hits. The 6+ Regen rule is ineffective unless he has Crypt Horrors - which is easily negated by your unit with Flaming attacks - assuming you have correctly included one?
b) In turn 3 or 4 the Mortis Engine Aura hits (S3and S4) become significant. D6 hits however should be easily absorbed by all except maybe 1 of your weaker units - so no problems.

Good luck the next time :)

The Terrorgeist scream can target units in combat without itself being in base contact. Check the FAQ out.

Even with that said the Terrorgeist is a good choice but in know way broken, even with a Mortis engine.

Clockwork
22-09-2013, 12:12
I love it when Warriors of Chaos get out-played and then complain about it. What is the opponent supposed to do - march their inferior units forward so they can be smashed up in combat (by an entire army that's marked with Nurgle, no less)?

TheDungen
22-09-2013, 12:25
Get a decent unit of marauder horsemen and catch it with then drown it in regular marauders as the horsemen hold it in place, thatway you're not using monsters and magic but deals with it anyway (though less effectively)

Borgomos
22-09-2013, 13:16
How are you catching a flyer with land-bound horsemen?

I would actually scream at Marauder Horsemen. Wipe a unit of 5-7 and the Geist has already claimed around half of his points.

I still think Tzeentch Disc Hero is the best counter for this type of monster. Ward save Shenanigans protect it from the scream, and it will almost always kill it in a couple of rounds. People really underestimate how terrible the Terrorgeist is vs. stuff he can't stomp.

TheDungen
22-09-2013, 15:24
You don't need to catch him you need to keep him out of 8 of your chaos warriors, now I don't play chaos and don't know if the horsemen are to expensive for this but I was just throwing the ball out there.

Maoriboy007
22-09-2013, 21:28
Its an 8" range attack, in every way the attack itself is good, its range is equally crap, that's why it has to work in combat, otherwise by the time you actually got a chance to use the deathshreik, everything would be in combat, effectively making the Terrorgheist unable to use its attack and making it an expensive paperweight. In order to use it he has to come within less than the average infantrys charge distance. Since it cant afford to get into anything but the most sure fire of combats, as soon as it comes within that range you should have at least one unit held back to take advantage of this, especially since its base is so huge you should have more success controlling its landing zones than the VC player would. If he is hiding the terrorgheist behind his lines to protect it from such tactics then you have effectively neutralised it, job done. Even if you don't wan't to use the standard counters (DP , Hellcannons) there is nothing wrong with throwing the far cheaper and just as overpowered chariots at the problem. Take two or more chariots, hold them slightly back facing the blind spot of any unit you are concerned about, if the Terrorgheist takes the bait...dead Terrorgheist.
Finally, its a Ld based attack, wound the terrorgeist and its attack is weakened , keep your general within range and the attack is weakened, do both and theres not much to worry about.

spagg
22-09-2013, 23:39
Its an 8" range attack, in every way the attack itself is good, its range is equally crap, that's why it has to work in combat, otherwise by the time you actually got a chance to use the deathshreik, everything would be in combat, effectively making the Terrorgheist unable to use its attack and making it an expensive paperweight. In order to use it he has to come within less than the average infantrys charge distance. Since it cant afford to get into anything but the most sure fire of combats, as soon as it comes within that range you should have at least one unit held back to take advantage of this, especially since its base is so huge you should have more success controlling its landing zones than the VC player would. If he is hiding the terrorgheist behind his lines to protect it from such tactics then you have effectively neutralised it, job done. Even if you don't wan't to use the standard counters (DP , Hellcannons) there is nothing wrong with throwing the far cheaper and just as overpowered chariots at the problem. Take two or more chariots, hold them slightly back facing the blind spot of any unit you are concerned about, if the Terrorgheist takes the bait...dead Terrorgheist.
Finally, its a Ld based attack, wound the terrorgeist and its attack is weakened , keep your general within range and the attack is weakened, do both and theres not much to worry about.


The terrorgeist can scream into any combat whether or not it is involved. So the terrorgeist is actually very effective if you can get other units in combat.

ewar
23-09-2013, 00:01
This has been the best thread I've seen on WS for a while, definitely raised a smile.

@the OP: we've all been there, the first time you play against something and it seems so utterly broken that it's inconceivable that it made it into the army book. In future I would wait until you've played against something at least 5 times until you declare it broken - I guarantee that the next time you come up against a VC army like this you'll be able to handle it better and will hopefully have tweaked your list a bit.

The first time I played against a K'daii destroyer I didn't appreciate how good it was... try coming up against that bad boy, it'll put the terrorgheist into perspective.

Maoriboy007
23-09-2013, 01:23
The terrorgeist can scream into any combat whether or not it is involved. So the terrorgeist is actually very effective if you can get other units in combat.If the Terrorgheist is in combat the only one it can scream into is its own, otherwise it has to be within that very close 8" range with that huge base and marching restrictions. I know that it can scream into combats when not engaged, but that is a practical concession to the attacks extremely short range, as it would be otherwise impractical. With only 8" range If you let your opponent tie up all of your units in combat then yes you can have a bad day, but simply holding ,for example, a chariot say 9" behind your main line should be either an effective deterrent or counter.
It is far harder to effectively counter, say, a Hellcannon however. So far a Hellcannon kills anything I send against it short of a fully equipped Lord Characterand can wipe out units and models from 40"

Lance Tankmen
23-09-2013, 02:47
hellcannon really? i find the whole fact that it has to be accurate, wound still, then LD tests and misfires thrown in. To be perfectly reasonable. where as the whole scream into any tar pit undead unit remove models to be slightly more... heartbreaking?

Foegnasher
23-09-2013, 03:01
i really wish you would've seen this list. two huge cheap blocks of "crap" infantry. if you think having fear causing unbreakable reraiseable infantry are crap. bunkered around the mortis engine, the corpse cart, another behind it hiding the wizards. teh giest, hounds and single blocks of etheral guys. oh lets not forge the goddamn vampires. and my list, which everyone agrees here is universal crap, had very little i could counter with. the counterable units were quickly tied up and then shouted to death. those of you who keep telling me to charge in there and kill the engine it would have been easy, if it werent screened by teh cart, which was so close to the zombies that i had to fight them both. thanks to the buffs from magic these crap troops were going first, rerolling hits or wounds against my troops. while my guys are good, the thing that would have helped swing the fght, my characters, were tied up fighting unkillable nasty vamps. then the **** hit the fan. i am suprised i lasted as long as i did. it was a bad matchup for me, and i get i had a fluffy nerfbat of a list. but that isnt the point. the point is the mechanics suck, and they do things that nothing else in warhammer does. THAT's the problem.

Lance Tankmen
23-09-2013, 03:19
see finally some one who hates the scream as much as i do, yes it has a ****** chance of getting the scream off if it couldnt scream into combat but yet since it can it nukes any small units or any unit tied up by the best tarpits in the game. i mean if it couldnt scream into combat you simply fly it next to a unit you wish to scream and scream at it or simply use it as a flank charger to reduce attacks back at it.

nearchus
23-09-2013, 03:30
i really wish you would've seen this list. two huge cheap blocks of "crap" infantry. if you think having fear causing unbreakable reraiseable infantry are crap. bunkered around the mortis engine, the corpse cart, another behind it hiding the wizards. teh giest, hounds and single blocks of etheral guys. oh lets not forge the goddamn vampires. and my list, which everyone agrees here is universal crap, had very little i could counter with. the counterable units were quickly tied up and then shouted to death. those of you who keep telling me to charge in there and kill the engine it would have been easy, if it werent screened by teh cart, which was so close to the zombies that i had to fight them both. thanks to the buffs from magic these crap troops were going first, rerolling hits or wounds against my troops. while my guys are good, the thing that would have helped swing the fght, my characters, were tied up fighting unkillable nasty vamps. then the **** hit the fan. i am suprised i lasted as long as i did. it was a bad matchup for me, and i get i had a fluffy nerfbat of a list. but that isnt the point. the point is the mechanics suck, and they do things that nothing else in warhammer does. THAT's the problem.

First, there's nothing particularly "fluffy" about your list. It's just a poor list with no answers to many of the things that armies will regularly face. Answers that your army book has readily available. Second, your opponent clearly outplayed you. They used the strengths of their list to their advantage and positioned their troops in such a manner as to protect them. There is more to this game than the combat phase. Deployment, list building, movement...all these things are part of the game for a reason (despite countless claims on warseer that these things are irrelevant.) VC have plenty of weaknesses. I'd suggest looking for them rather than complaining about the few things they do well.

SpanielBear
23-09-2013, 03:43
Or to put it another way- there are plenty of examples in this thread how he could have used the terrorgeist poorly. He could have placed in range of chariots. He could have left gaps between his units. He could have skimped on necromancers,and his zombies would have collapsed into mouldering heaps. If all these counters exist, and he managed to avoid the pitfalls, that seems to be not because the units are overpowered, but because he knows how to use them.

Like some people have already said, now you are wise to some of the tricks, take him on again. There ain't no match like a grudge match!

stewy37
23-09-2013, 03:53
I'm new to fantasy butI've been playing 40k for a while. A "fluffy" list doesn't have to be a weak or bad list. It just fits a theme the creator likes. Sometimes people like to cover up poor list building skills by calling their list "fluffy" and in doing so give themselves something to blame besides their own skill for a loss. In 40k, I can make a fluffy list that still covers the bases I need to handle most things in the game. I know I need to be able to handle heavy and light armored vehicles, I need some long range firepower, I need to be able to handle heavy infantry and hordes, I need enough bodies to claim and hold objectives, etc. So even when sticking with a theme I will make a list that still gives me the tools to deal with most threats in the game. It may not always be the most efficient way and may require more skill on my end to achieve, but I want to give myself at least a decent chance.

Being new to fantasy, I don't have specific advice to give you about your army. But everyone is telling you that your army has the tools to handle this threat and still remain fluffy, so my advice would be to take a harder look at your codex and see what changes you can make. Make a list of the differing threats you will have to deal with in the game and see what fits your theme and can still handle them.

And then, practice practice, practice and try new strategies to grow as a player.

Maoriboy007
23-09-2013, 04:17
hellcannon really? i find the whole fact that it has to be accurate, wound still, then LD tests and misfires thrown in. To be perfectly reasonable. where as the whole scream into any tar pit undead unit remove models to be slightly more... heartbreaking?I would , hand on my heart, swap the Terrorgheist for the Hellcannon any day (from a power gaming point of view, luv the Terrorgheist in concept not execution). It is a serious threat from turn one. It can kill entire units just as well as monsters and has a pretty mild Misfire chart. It will cause 15-20 casualties to infantry units even before they take a -1ld Panic test and can punch through all but the hardest armour and apart from hoping for a catastrophic misfire there is not a god@#n thing you can do to it.

i really wish you would've seen this list. two huge cheap blocks of "crap" infantry. if you think having fear causing unbreakable reraiseable infantry are crap..You forgot unstable, Low initiative , Low Ws Average toughness and Strength with no amour. Even with re-rolls they need 5s to hit you. And Fear is pretty much acknowledged as a joke these days. I mean if you managed to fail a significant amount of fear tests I'd be asking how. Steadfast gains them no advantage whatsoever, so the reason they are so huge is so that they survive the massive casualties they will take from CR. Its no impossible to wipe out a 30 strong unit of Zombies in one turn.

bunkered around the mortis engine, the corpse cart, another behind it hiding the wizards. teh giest, hounds and single blocks of etheral guys..In other words he spent points on unit support and used it properly, pretty much what they are supposed to do. Where were your support units and what were they doing?

oh lets not forge the goddamn vampires..Where are your 3+ Ward save Chaos Lords then? If you are not countering his characterds with your own then its no wonder you had such a problem with Undead.They should at least be able to fight a LOrd 1 on 1. Vampres don't get ASF re-rolls against them , and a 3+ Ward prevents anything but Luck getting them smited by Red Fury. And each character lost is catastrophic for VC so you should be throwing recourses at killing them. Its basic undead 101.

and my list, which everyone agrees here is universal crap, had very little i could counter with. the counterable units were quickly tied up and then shouted to death. those of you who keep telling me to charge in there and kill the engine it would have been easy, if it werent screened by teh cart, which was so close to the zombies that i had to fight them both..The cart is not a significant obstacle, nor are Zombies. Zombies work best with support, but the y certainly need that support , and even then rise form less than mediocre to close to average. And if your counterable units were tied up so quickly it sounds like they were committed too early and had no support or weren't doing proper support duties.

thanks to the buffs from magic these crap troops were going first, rerolling hits or wounds against my troops..Did you dispel any spells at all, otherwise he was having a mighty lucky magic phase? And even buffed, Zombies come off a very poor second best against Chaos Warriors sans some pretty Legendary rolling. And were you buffing your own troops at all? Regenerating Chaos warriors that nerf your stats is no joke.

while my guys are good, the thing that would have helped swing the fght, my characters, were tied up fighting unkillable nasty vamps.Chaos warrior characters should have the right stuff to take on Vamps and are very bit as unkillable and nasty, if not more so. Vamps are very good in every way the rest of their troops are very bad. Melt them with instability

then the **** hit the fan. i am suprised i lasted as long as i did. it was a bad matchup for me, and i get i had a fluffy nerfbat of a list.Yes you had a soft list, but you also got outmanoeuvred and didn't play the right game against your opponent, that's the point.

but that isnt the point. the point is the mechanics suck, and they do things that nothing else in warhammer does. THAT's the problem.Chaos has just as many of their own mechkanics that suck to other armies. (Unbreakable Indestructible war machine or Demon Princes of Doom anyone?) Undead have their own problems, instability , Low initiative and WS, March restrictions etc. There is nothing wrong with the Mechanics, in fact VC are considered way more balanced than Warriors are, the problem here is that you played into your opponents hands and didn't see his true game. You saw what you thought were easy combats , and got rolled when your opponent played to his strengths. About all anyone agrees with you here is that you were playing a comparatively soft list.

see finally some one who hates the scream as much as i do, yes it has a ****** chance of getting the scream off if it couldnt scream into combat but yet since it can it nukes any small units or any unit tied up by the best tarpits in the game. i mean if it couldnt scream into combat you simply fly it next to a unit you wish to scream and scream at it or simply use it as a flank charger to reduce attacks back at it.Best Tarpits in the game is something of a stretch, in fact instability has reduced their tarpit status as secondary to steadfast. And the concept of having a Terrorgheist join combats means the concept of instability is lost on you. You never join a combat with you expensive models as hey become free casualties when your opponent shreds your zombies. If the Scream had a better range and the Terrorghiest wasn't limited by march restrictions, then yes it would be unessesary to have it scream into combats, but with restrictions and a short range....
In the end I have to agree with the following:

First, there's nothing particularly "fluffy" about your list. It's just a poor list with no answers to many of the things that armies will regularly face. Answers that your army book has readily available. Second, your opponent clearly outplayed you. They used the strengths of their list to their advantage and positioned their troops in such a manner as to protect them. There is more to this game than the combat phase. Deployment, list building, movement...all these things are part of the game for a reason (despite countless claims on warseer that these things are irrelevant.) VC have plenty of weaknesses. I'd suggest looking for them rather than complaining about the few things they do well.Take chariots dude, all your problems can be solved with Chariots.

spagg
23-09-2013, 15:51
Excellent post Maoriboy

Yowzo
23-09-2013, 16:52
How are you catching a flyer with land-bound horsemen?

Because it can't flee and because quite a few times it won't be able to march either.

Snue
25-09-2013, 20:35
@OP. First of all, i think it is cool that you choose to deploy a "warrior" heavy WoC army:)

Ok so the way i understand you, you have an issue with the scream mechanics. The scream is rolled at 2d6 with an expected value of 13 (7 on 2d6 and 6 wounds). With ld 8 this will mean 5 wounds with wards allowed. Do I understand you correctly if I say that your problem with the Tbat is that it doesn't make you roll on any of your characteristics? Because your leadership characteristic is fundamental for the whole attack (and IP is allowed). If you consider the scream mechanics in relation to the terrorgheists mobility and surviveability, i think you will come to another conclusion. The bat is essentially standing on a pizzabox with a movment of 10'' whenever it is more than 12'' apart from the general. The 8''scream radius says come and charge me, unless he outdeploys/outmanouver you. This makes the terrorgheist a cool threat vector which forces you to play the movment game in a tactical manner.(tactical not cheesy conga lines or the likes). If your issues is with countering the monster, try a magic 2d6 missile to its face, or do not leave >16 square inch holes in youre battle line unprotected.

Loosing on average 5 models (given ld8) per turn to shooting attacks, screaming or otherwise, is considered a fairly small loss.

OFC the CC aspect is fun for a WoC player, there is few who can stand toe to toe with them.

I would argue that dwellers, purple sun and pit of shades would be incredibly less fun than a Tbat scream and hellish vigour cast the poorest CC unit in the game.

(The corpse cart is the least competative unit in the VC book btw)

My question to you, can you think of another way to make the attacks of the terrorgheist a threat but at the same time more fun, without killing the role of the creature?