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arthurfallz
16-09-2013, 13:28
Played an amusing game using my Bretonnians against my friend's Vampire Counts. It wasn't my best showing for the Brets, and the table turned against me in a hurry. My knights just don't seem capable of taking that army very well. That's all right, imho.

What I ran into trouble with is that the Vampires spammed their IoN, and kept adding zombies to his zombie blocks.

I know in the rules it states you aren't allowed to add more zombies than you have models for, but otherwise (on zombies) there is no limit. We've relaxed the rule about models (because it's a blatant sales tool, and he's poor), but when he has a bag of wooden blocks for proxies, and over 25 wooden block zombies are appearing the back rank by turn three....

I don't want to be a jerk. But at a loss to stop this abuse. And a bit frustrated that the rules seem to allow this. Advice?

Wesser
16-09-2013, 14:04
My group too allows flexibility

If you wanna try something different we don't think models should be a bar forcing you to play the same force every time. It's just a karma thing as we know wysiwyg and painted armies rolls better dice :)

So while you are technically correct you just forcing the issue of forced selection and play style, which is up to you.


But lets assume that he buys a million zombies or you let him proxy.

There honestly isn't a lot you can do apart from building magic defence. Take a dispel scroll, silver mirror and focus on not letting IoN get through.
Bretonnia has absolutely no way of effectively combating zombies, skavenslaves and similar disposables other than avoiding them. Zombies are however likely to be out of the march zone of the general (at least some of them will), so just avoid at least any unit that's away from the general as they get stranded easy. Your lances should be focussed on charging his best unit first anyway

Whaagnomore
17-09-2013, 09:45
Buy 60-ish of mantics zombies for your friend as a x-mas present.
Dirt cheap and looks good.

theunwantedbeing
17-09-2013, 11:07
Nothing wrong with removing the relaxation on the rules.
You put it there for his benefit, he's abusing it so it's time to enforce the rules again.

Wesser
17-09-2013, 11:53
Nothing wrong with removing the relaxation on the rules.
You put it there for his benefit, he's abusing it so it's time to enforce the rules again.

Isn't that pretty much a dick move for friendlies? Even at tournies I care little if anything about a bit of proxying.

But if things are tight then ask him to make some unit fillers. They can be made rather easily from maybe a few zombies and some tombstones

Artiee
17-09-2013, 13:06
But if things are tight then ask him to make some unit fillers. They can be made rather easily from maybe a few zombies and some tombstones

I have to QFT this.

Ramius4
17-09-2013, 13:14
Proxying doesn't bother me one bit.

A bit of advice. A horde of Men at Arms beats the dog-snot out of Zombies. Knights are the last thing you want to get in combat with them.

arthurfallz
17-09-2013, 14:08
Proxying doesn't bother me one bit.

A bit of advice. A horde of Men at Arms beats the dog-snot out of Zombies. Knights are the last thing you want to get in combat with them.

Not when my opponent can put Vampires in every zombie bunker. The Men-at-Arms are comparable to zombies (they're terrible, WS2!), with low leadership unless close to a Knight. Vampires cut them to ribbons, so I have trouble beating any of his units in CR to win combat resolution. It's just not a competitive matchup imho.

That being said, I was debating asking for a "zombie pool". Something like 1 zombie / 100 points in the army list, and making all losses go into the pool. Heck, I'm fine if he even uses Zombies from the game of that name, just that there are tokens, and there is some limit to them. Is this reasonable? In a 2000 point game, that is 20 extra zombies available to buff up armies (4 ranks or 2 horde ranks).

Wesser
17-09-2013, 14:23
Proxying doesn't bother me one bit.

A bit of advice. A horde of Men at Arms beats the dog-snot out of Zombies. Knights are the last thing you want to get in combat with them.

Men-at-arms got low LD making them likely to fail fear test unless babysitted. They are also more expensive than zombies and simply unlikely to be cost-effective in an attempt to outgrind zombies

Ramius4
17-09-2013, 14:25
Not when my opponent can put Vampires in every zombie bunker. The Men-at-Arms are comparable to zombies (they're terrible, WS2!), with low leadership unless close to a Knight. Vampires cut them to ribbons, so I have trouble beating any of his units in CR to win combat resolution. It's just not a competitive matchup imho.

WS 2 is irrelevant against WS 1. You hit on 3's and he hits you back on 4's. Might as well be WS5 vs. WS4 for all it matters. You also kill him on 3's with Halberds. Yes a Vampire will cut a few models to ribbons, but a single Vampire really shouldn't be enough to make up for the combat resolution you get from killing Zombies. Not unless it's a Lord with Red Fury in every unit.


Men-at-arms got low LD making them likely to fail fear test unless babysitted. They are also more expensive than zombies and simply unlikely to be cost-effective in an attempt to outgrind zombies

I must've missed the part where Knights are "cost effective" at grinding out Zombies... The 6 Ld isn't a huge deal against Zombies either. Failing a fear test is just going to mean you hit on 4's for a round, while they've gained nothing against you (nor would the Vampire), and that's not even taking into account that you could very well have a Knight unit within 8" for their Leadership.

That's not even mentioning the fact that for the price of a single Knight of the Realm, you get 4 Strength 4 Attacks rather than 2 Strength 3 Attacks, and they occupy roughly the same footprint. Tell me again how cost effective they are at grinding Zombies?

Men at Arms are decent against Undead Core troops, and a much needed source of multiple, cheap Strength 4 Attacks that the Bretonnian army often needs. Of course they're not good against every army, that's obvious. I'm just pointing out, that other than 1 point of Leadership, they're no worse off against Zombies than an Empire Halberdier, which is not a bad place to be if that's the role you require them to fill.

decker_cky
17-09-2013, 17:21
I think spear MaA may fare even better, since they would have a 5+ save and against zombies, the spear attacks are actually more effective than the halberd, aside from when you charge. If you're using a horde, spears and halberds cause the same damage to zombies (but you're losing less models because of the extra armour).

Ramius4
17-09-2013, 17:26
I think spear MaA may fare even better, since they would have a 5+ save and against zombies, the spear attacks are actually more effective than the halberd, aside from when you charge. If you're using a horde, spears and halberds cause the same damage to zombies (but you're losing less models because of the extra armour).

True enough. Either way though, it's certainly better than using Knights to try and cut through a Zombie tarpit.

The only thing I'd add to the spear vs. halberd issue is that I would still consider Halberds if my opponent was also prone to fielding a good amount of Black Knights, and/or Grave Guard, just in case.

Wesser
17-09-2013, 20:30
Which takes us back to the point of AVOIDING zombies...

Brets have no answer to rabble that don't run away which is why Brets aren't going to win against Skaven till they get a new book

Ramius4
18-09-2013, 12:41
Which takes us back to the point of AVOIDING zombies...

Brets have no answer to rabble that don't run away which is why Brets aren't going to win against Skaven till they get a new book

Then you need to rethink your strategy. I just beat Skaven with my Brets about a week and a half ago... :eyebrows: Mostly using Men at Arms to counter infantry blocks.

Wesser
18-09-2013, 15:33
Then you need to rethink your strategy. I just beat Skaven with my Brets about a week and a half ago... :eyebrows: Mostly using Men at Arms to counter infantry blocks.

Then he was playing nice.

Skaven can just train up skavenslaves and even clanrats to absorb knightly charges and clanrats are both cheaper and better fighters than Men-at-arms.

He must have been trying very hard to let you win...

quietus1986
18-09-2013, 17:14
I use a little arms and heads for extra zombie's.

Ramius4
18-09-2013, 17:18
Then he was playing nice.

Skaven can just train up skavenslaves and even clanrats to absorb knightly charges and clanrats are both cheaper and better fighters than Men-at-arms.

He must have been trying very hard to let you win...

Wow, you have a very overrated sense of how this game works then bud. Instead of trying to understand how such a thing is possible, you come up with lame ass insults like “he was trying hard to let you win”. What are you, 5 years old?

Rather, I was trying very hard to make him lose.

The key to using your peasants is not to go in and plan on winning every combat. You often just need to hold the enemy in place long enough so that they can’t get at your Knights.

Men at Arms vs. slaves is a victory (not in the long run, 'I will beat you' sense mind you, but you’ll hold them where they are long enough that it matters), they are not strictly worse fighters. They are a worse value for their cost, but not worse fighters.

3500 points (8' wide table), 2 units of 60 Men at Arms in the center, and 2 units of 40 on my flanks. Grail Knight bus-hammer in the center (with General and BSB), and Knight units deployed between and on the flanks of each Men at Arms unit. Flaming, skirmished archers and Trebuchet were able to deploy across from his HPA (on far right flank), some Peg Knights, and a couple units of Mounted Squires. So, something like this (with archers in front of the trebuchet and Mounted Squires in front of my line to draw out/block potential flankers)…

Peg Kn - Kn – MaA – Kn – MaA – Grail – MaA – Kn – MaA – Kn – Treb - Archers

Skaven guy fields 2 units of 100 Slaves that flank his Clanrat/Screaming Bell/BSB unit, and almost always has 2 units of 60+ Clanrats flanking those (can’t recall how many each unit had that day, and yes he’s got roughly five hundred! painted Skaven). That’s the typical core of his army. 1 WLC, 2 Doomwheel, 1 HPA, 6 Jezzails, 10 Rat Ogres (a surprise unit that absolutely ate through a good portion of my left flank when I failed to redirect it with Squires), 50 Plague Monks, some Censer Bearers, and several smaller support units.

I basically kept my Knights back from getting charged and threw my Men At Arms units at his center to pin his infantry in place. The Grail Knights had to hack through 2 Doomwheels that were running interference to reach his Screaming Bell unit, but with the charge I was able to take out the Bell (and then the BSB and Seer the next round). But the key to ALL of it, were those units of Men at Arms that held the Skaven infantry off for 3 rounds so that my Knights could strike targets with value.

Now, did everything go perfectly for me? Nope. I got a bit bottlenecked over on my left flank, and his Rat Ogres had their way with me for a while. But what won me the game was not losing sight of my goal of getting rid of his General and BSB, and using the right tools to make that happen. (Archers and Trebuchet also bombed his HPA off the table on turn 2).

Perhaps the most ridiculous thing I hear Bretonnian players say is “the peasant infantry are crap! They can’t keep up to support the Knights and they have 2WS!” Well of course not, but the Knights don’t have to go running full tilt, out ahead of them either! I can say with all honesty, that it’s usually my Men at Arms who get into combat first (unless I get a lucky opportunity for Knights to charge something important). If you keep those Men at Arms within your own BSB, General bubbles, they usually aren't going anywhere soon.

Despite what the internet seems to think, Bretonnia is still a very solid army. Skaven are a VERY tough army book in 8th, but certainly not immune to losing.

Wesser
18-09-2013, 20:49
Well cheers to you then

My Skaven opponents doesnt dream of actually committing any important units.

I'm not certain either how it is you pinning his infantry when he gets the first turn? It's is him pinning your units in his 2nd turn with his disposables...



Nevermind, we can argue that particular point forever.

My only real argument that belong in this thread is: Be part of the solution not the problem.

Get some thin Wood sheets and cut out 100 20x20 bases. Then grab as many old sprues from those men-at-arms, elven spearmen etc. as you can and cut off any extra heads, arms and body parts. Then on the bases create a forest of arms coming out of the ground, legs with no bodies running around etc. Splash some PVA-glue or similar to "gory up" the various parts and voila.

Be the best damn hobbyist you can be and help him build that unit. Then if your unit dies at least it will be hilarious

Akkaryn
19-09-2013, 06:35
Also granted there likely will be a better target on the board from them but trebs will thin zombie bunkers out quite nicely. I'd be more inclined to charge a big gribbly with the knights. Especially if the lord has hkb. And use the trebs to horde thin rather than snipe.

arthurfallz
19-09-2013, 12:28
I'm going to weigh in and say that my opponent has found he can bait my knights too easily, and always bring in flanking units. Surrounding my Knight busses, which wheel terribly through dense terrain. As well, zombies have Fear (which can turn my already terrible MaA into even worse than zombies). I agree - I need to put more Men At Arms up there. But the VC are essentially a Horde army, and can field a table full of units in comparison to me.

They're a solid army. I'm an outdated army. But speaking of solutions, we are going to use Empire rules for my Brets until the update appears.

Back to the OP - the rule is such that the opponent is supposed to have models to represent the created zombies. I agree with the sentiment that in this case, proxies need to look good. Heck, I'm even in full support that I aught to help him make those proxies. Why not? I do think it's reasonable to ask him to stop using wood-slat proxies, and work with me to make some solid proxy units for his summoned zombies.

I mean, the alternative, if I was a jerk, he would have to put aside an amount of his zombies and not field them to make sure he had some to field. I feel, I don't know, like my sportsmanship is being abused here. I had fun, even though I was loosing (we both ham it up), but the gamist in me is a little cheesed off at the rule, and would like a creative solution.

Wesser
19-09-2013, 13:09
Back to the OP - the rule is such that the opponent is supposed to have models to represent the created zombies. I agree with the sentiment that in this case, proxies need to look good. Heck, I'm even in full support that I aught to help him make those proxies. Why not? I do think it's reasonable to ask him to stop using wood-slat proxies, and work with me to make some solid proxy units for his summoned zombies.

You know. If you two get around to doing that then post pictures under a thread named "Friends works with bitz to sort out rule-query and avoid buying ugly GW-zombies"

You'll get to be my hobbyist heroes and everything :)

sulla
19-09-2013, 21:28
Not when my opponent can put Vampires in every zombie bunker. The Men-at-Arms are comparable to zombies (they're terrible, WS2!), with low leadership unless close to a Knight. Vampires cut them to ribbons, so I have trouble beating any of his units in CR to win combat resolution. It's just not a competitive matchup imho..In my experience, those vampires cleave through heavily armoured infantry and knights just as well as those peasants of yours. I know which ones I'd rather be losing. Besides, the goal is to lock the zombies in place with the infantry, then hit them in the flank with knights to crumble them. Not easy, but it wouldn't fun if it was easy.

I'm gonna second Mantic zombies for him as well as unit fillers. Fillers are especially important as zombies go on the board quickly but they come off just as fast. Another old zombie movie staple is to halve a few zombies; sets of walking legs and a few torsoes crawling along the ground will fit in perfectly with the zombie horde. Heck I've even seen just hands sticking out of the ground as well as the everpresent tombstone as a zombie.