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Montserrat
05-06-2006, 08:05
In order to... "And you wonder why people hate Eldar? by t-tauri" in the post http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37254&page=49.

Well my theory is simple, all fear the eldar. Thats simple, eldar is a collective of players whith a high TACTICAL vision, we have the biggest troops options, we have the power of the more destructive and CREATIVE tactics. We are the more serious?...well we have powergames and kids...of course.

Using eldar is not an easy task...but it has the recompense...if yo do it well.

Note: i'm not saying the other playes are idiot, only other armys, like marines necrons...etc are no t complex enought to call the attention of this kind of player, he/she selects eldar.

Its all about fear. "those ******* eldar" one second later of being masacred by a quirurgical atack.

EDIT: Every time i read, "make ww twinlinked" or "autarch is X reason not uber-exarc" or "shuricannon not get rending by X reason" ETC ETC ETC ETC......I can smell this fear, not all conscient, but fear.

Sekhmet
05-06-2006, 08:13
People select eldar because they want to bring 10+ star cannons to the table. That's not skill, it's something that tastes good with macaroni and also tastes good in sandwiches. :cheese:

You want a creative and tactical army? Play Witchhunters. :)

bratbag
05-06-2006, 08:16
Starcannon abuse and memories of 2nd edition :cheese:

Michaelius
05-06-2006, 08:27
Let's see half the people play MEQ and then you get eldar army absolutly dedicated to erasing space marines and you wonder why they hate us? :)
Plus most people eperienced something like alaitoc discruption table auto-win in turn 1 or immortal falcon syndrome once or twice and since they can't count probablity they will bitch how broken things are :D
Or they will be crying about starcannons being undercosted for 35 points 3 shot BS3 weappon while getting heavy bolters at 5 points at the same time :D

Khaine's Messenger
05-06-2006, 08:29
Well my theory is simple, all fear the eldar.

Nah.... The "hate" for the Eldar comes from both directions: non-Eldar-players who dislike Eldar players and/or the armylist (for being shamelessly devoted to slaying Marines and/or being a lot of whiners) and Eldar players/enthusiasts who just don't like the direction taken by GW with respect to their chosen army/race (the aforementioned "whiners")...regardless of whether or not any of those reasons are valid. It's not "fear" so much as a whole bevy of legacy-gripes from the 2e/3e transition and the early days of 3e.

lord_blackfang
05-06-2006, 08:34
It's not the army list I hate, it's the players. Never satisfied, never happy. Eldar could be getting as much GW love as Marines and Eldar players would still whine.

Sekhmet
05-06-2006, 08:35
Let's see half the people play MEQ and then you get eldar army absolutly dedicated to erasing space marines and you wonder why they hate us? :)
Plus most people eperienced something like alaitoc discruption table auto-win in turn 1 or immortal falcon syndrome once or twice and since they can't count probablity they will bitch how broken things are :D
Or they will be crying about starcannons being undercosted for 35 points 3 shot BS3 weappon while getting heavy bolters at 5 points at the same time :D

I play Necrons as my primary army, I positively love Eldar. They're very squishy.

Despoiler
05-06-2006, 08:36
Starcannon abuse and memories of 2nd edition :cheese:

so true.

i once knew a guy who had three immortal falcons (with starcannons) and more starcannons in the rest of the army where he could have them.

and when he won he still put it own to his 'Elite tactical thinking' (his words).

and he wonders why no one wants to play him.

now don't get me wrong on this I don't mind eldar and I don't mind playing them, and hell I definatly don't fear them. its just when you see the signs of new player or powergamer (i.e starcannon and/or immortal falcon syndrome) i just get annoyed (mind you I still play them -I'm not one to back away from a game).

Darkseer
05-06-2006, 08:40
It's not the Eldar I dislike, it's certain Eldar players that I dislike.

azimaith
05-06-2006, 08:49
In order to... "And you wonder why people hate Eldar? by t-tauri" in the post http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37254&page=49.

Well my theory is simple, all fear the eldar.

Bwahahahahahhah! (Rolling on floor riddled with uncontrollable spasms of laughter)



Thats simple, eldar is a collective of players whith a high TACTICAL vision, we have the biggest troops options, we have the power of the more destructive and CREATIVE tactics. We are the more serious?...well we have powergames and kids...of course.

Ooooh sorry, you were trying to be serious. Sorry, its not tactical to say "Zomg, 10 starcannons." People hate eldar, well more specifically, MEq's hate eldar (except my crons who eat their faces off along with my nids.. and guard.) becuase of the commong cut and paste 3 wraithlord immortal falcon guardian grav platform cannon packing armies.



Using eldar is not an easy task...but it has the recompense...if yo do it well.

Note: i'm not saying the other playes are idiot, only other armys, like marines necrons...etc are no t complex enought to call the attention of this kind of player, he/she selects eldar.

Sorry but this is not true, its stinks of sheer elitist silliness. Try making your creatures from scratch as a tyranid player or trying to get a single character with wargear to operate an army with Necrons. Hell, even try to get 100 men on the field with the guns, support, and balance needed to take all comers as guard. Far too many eldar players just say: "Well I can use 3 wraithlords with starcannons add in some falcons and vypers!"



Its all about fear. "those fuking eldar" one second later of being masacred by a quirurgical atack.

Actually more like "@*&$*! Eldar" then the eldar player beginning the laborious incredible tactically minded task of rolling 50 starcannon shots.



EDIT: Every time i read, "make ww twinlinked" or "autarch is X reason not uber-exarc" or "shuricannon not get rending by X reason" ETC ETC ETC ETC......I can smell this fear, not all conscient, but fear.
Its not fear, its stupid cut and paste lists. If thinking other people fear a cheesed out starcannon filled 3 wraithlord arym at 1500 points gives you an ego boost, thats your business, but I've never had a real problem actually smushing eldar pretty well.

My nids don't give a flying rats ass about their starcannons and despite all their layers of protection, falcons just plain can't survive venom cannons for long. My guard outnumber them and use cameleoline, thus use 3+ cover saves anyhow, so that doesn't function well against us. And my necrons, we prey on their low leadership, our greater instantaneous maneuverability and vicious firepower.

People hate eldar because they've become attached to "powergamers". Their lists are plagued by both a lack of balance and a lack of units that provide broadscale usefulness.

If eldar want to get rid of this stigma that plagues them, a diverse explosion of lists that rely less on gimicky "I've got 6 wraithlords or 20 jet bikes, or 6 ranger disruption tables!" and more on characterful lists. Otherwise you just end up with the same dislike for Space Marine Las/Plas squads or 9 obliterators in an Iron Warriors army or 6 MC's in a Tyranid army.

But fear? Give my a break, my Necrons and my Tyranids just lick their chops and say "Lunch!" They do love their fast food.

Noobles
05-06-2006, 08:56
because elsr players dont play warhammer 40k they play either re-rollhammer or starcannonhammer gays!

NaT
05-06-2006, 09:15
A typical eldar army is as bad as the new SM ass. cannons of doom army. Except eldar have been doing it all last eddition.

Why do people hate eldar? because they are no fun to paly.

Escaflowne_Z
05-06-2006, 09:43
Eldar players amuse me. "We have to use TACTICS to win!".

Then I see their list. Hmmm, let's see.

WL or 2? Check.
Falcon or 2? Check. (immortal Falcons, of course)
Banshees in W. Serpent? Check.
Scorpions in W. Serpent? Check.
Fire Dragons in W. Serpent/Falcon? Check.
Dark Reapers? Check.
et cetera.

Amusing how pointing your nigh-unkillable falcons/waveserpents at me and shouting "Charge!" is tactical. Or standing there with the Reapers and bombarding the enemy from 48" away is. Hmmm, what a hard tactical decision!

Pfft, please.

Sekhmet
05-06-2006, 10:00
Because technically a charge is a tactic. And you're obviously deciding to use the charge, therefore you're making a tactical decision.

Another tactical decision would be to run your army against your table edge, not shoot and not move and wait until your enemy breaks your army and they run off the board.

Charging is obviously the better tactic, therefore Eldar players are "tactical."

Inquisitor Kallus
05-06-2006, 10:03
So the school-yard disputes begin..... .
I myself play Eldar and Imperial Guard, and if you ask anyone who I have ever played they will tell you that my Eldar army is far from 'power-hungry'.
I regularly use the Biel-Tan list, and sometimes the standard Eldar list and pride myself on not making hugely competitive lists with innumerable Starcannons, Wraithlords and the like. I use guardian squads with no heavy weapons support and regularly take to the field of battle with no vehicles and Wraithlords whatsoever. The more mature gamers that i play find our games rewarding, usually taking place in hab-units, jungles, cities and the like, the idea behind my force being that they have been deployed on the planets surface by means of a Vampire Raider to perform a certain task. I am not saying i have never used a Wraithlord, 3 Vypers with Starcannons or Falcons in an army list but so many people are obsessed with winning their games that they lose out on the fun of them. Ask a friend to join you in making a scenario maybe 1000 points or less with the army lists between yourselves using more standard troops and not maxing them out,......... only one,..or heaven forbid no heavy weapons in my Terminator squad? My Guardians dont have a support platform? Guess theyll have to move forward and use their shuriken catapults:rolleyes:

Inquisitor Kallus
05-06-2006, 10:10
Eldar players amuse me. "We have to use TACTICS to win!".

Then I see their list. Hmmm, let's see.

WL or 2? Check.
Falcon or 2? Check. (immortal Falcons, of course)
Banshees in W. Serpent? Check.
Scorpions in W. Serpent? Check.
Fire Dragons in W. Serpent/Falcon? Check.
Dark Reapers? Check.
et cetera.

Amusing how pointing your nigh-unkillable falcons/waveserpents at me and shouting "Charge!" is tactical. Or standing there with the Reapers and bombarding the enemy from 48" away is. Hmmm, what a hard tactical decision!

Pfft, please.

Dark Reapers have a 36" range, unless they have an Exarch with an Eldar Missle Launcher (48" range), please check the rules to make sure what you are posting is correct.

Apologies for the double post

Kahadras
05-06-2006, 10:26
IMO its easy to spot the real Eldar players from those who just play because they have seen a cookie cutter list on the internet that wins a lot. I, for one, don't mind Eldar players untill they start complaining. OK they got a bad deal with their 3rd ed codex but now many seem to take the attitude that GW are somehow out to get them.

Another annoyance are those Eldar players who seem to think Eldar should be better than every other army at everything (I call it Marine syndrome). Whether it be shooting, saves, vehicles, hth combat Eldar should be far superior to every other race in 40K as they are one of the oldest races around. They don't seem to understand game balance or the fact that Necrons would be even more awesome than them.

Kahadras

Sekhmet
05-06-2006, 10:30
IMO its easy to spot the real Eldar players from those who just play because they have seen a cookie cutter list on the internet that wins a lot. I, for one, don't mind Eldar players untill they start complaining. OK they got a bad deal with their 3rd ed codex but now many seem to take the attitude that GW are somehow out to get them.

Another annoyance are those Eldar players who seem to think Eldar should be better than every other army at everything (I call it Marine syndrome). Whether it be shooting, saves, vehicles, hth combat Eldar should be far superior to every other race in 40K as they are one of the oldest races around. They don't seem to understand game balance or the fact that Necrons would be even more awesome than them.

Kahadras

It's fine that Eldar should be able to have the 2nd best units all around in the game, but they should have pt values to match. Then they'd realize that you can't have 20 pt wraithlords, that'd be unfair. You can have 2+ save wraith lords with jetpacks.. for 275 pts each. 40k isn't about realistic battles, it's about a fair fight (as much as possible) between two armies. If it was about realism, you'd see 28659725 x 10^31895731985 guardsmen in each army, and like 10 space marines in each army. And maybe 15-20 Eldar, they're an endangered species after all.

froo
05-06-2006, 10:35
Dark Reapers have a 36" range, unless they have an Exarch with an Eldar Missle Launcher (48" range)
Actually the Dark Reapers' Reaper Launcher is 48" range, the Exarch's Missile Launcher is 48" range. Hell if you give the exarch a shuricannon its only a 24" range... I dont know how you came up with 36"


please check the rules to make sure what you are posting is correct.

Maybe you should take some of your own advice.

Anyway, the thing about those anti-MEQ armies is that they do poorly against other types of armies and if they meet one, they suffer.

Eldar are a tactical army if you design your list to take on all comers, but I suppose that idea evades some people and instead get lured in by the most complained about choices.

He Himself
05-06-2006, 10:48
How can someone fear little figures?

Well, I can say as a BT player, that trying to desperately get to close combat by walking across the board while cannons rain stars at my marines neck, doesn't make me smile. I do not fear Eldar still, they aren't sum undead.

Problem is, players decide to use these completely lame lists. One can in theoryhammer argue how a starcannon-list has better % to win than one made out of Dire Avengers, Reapers and other aspect warriors, but it doesn't mean that you eldar players couldn't make those lists, that have winning % lower or something.

Why I hate eldar? Cause its players have only one eye open and don't see the complete beauty and variety of that whole race.

devolutionary
05-06-2006, 11:28
Love Eldar, think they're great. Was an Alaitoc fan before they had fancy Pathfinders/Rangers, and still am.

However, while Marine players look like power gamers and twinked out simpletons, Eldar players look like 9 year olds, or 40 year old introverts who get lost without Mommy's directions. I don't mind the weapons so much, but look at the Starcannon. It's basically the Eldar version of the Assault Cannon. If I could field an entire ARMY of Land Speeder Tornados, cheese would be called from the high heavens and God himself would smite me for my complete and utter beardiness.

I am assuming you can see the point here? It's much the same as Iron Warriors, the list is extremely twinkable and so often is twinked because "it's only Marine players who are complaining". That is the single weakest excuse in the book. Your examples are just as weak. Currently, War Walkers are the only walkers I know of in the game that can take two identical weapons and not TL them. Why should they have that benefit? Tau can't get it on Crisis Suits, and we pay a disgusting amount for anything even remotely anti-Marine (or Eldar Aspect, for that matter). You already have your Starcannons, Bright Lances, and other such purely savage armament, so why bend the precedent further at no cost? It's about keeping things consistent and just for all armies.

You claim tactical vision. The most tactical vision I've seen from an Eldar list in a long time is the debate over another Falcon or another Wraithlord. Or the old "do I give my Warlocks Witchblades, or am I using them as ablative armour" argument, weee boy that's some farsighted tactical planning right there. Face it, Eldar don't employ more tactics, they simply employ more varied tactics. They are one of the few armies where mechanized is still fully viable as an elite army. More troops means nothing. The Word Bearers have far greater troop options than you could ever hope to see, with 9 slots and a myriad of different styles.

Do I fear them? Not on your freaking life. I'm afraid of no army in 40k. I'll take on your Infiltrating Obliterator Cult and come out laughing at the sheer lunacy of my plan. My marines have no plasma, ride around in units of 10 in rhinos, and my Termie squad features a single Heavy. Uneven odds make my world go round.

I'd also like to quickly look back at both the original post and that made by Kahadras - As pointed out, it is arrogance that ultimately makes people hate Eldar players. It is the belief that they are somehow superior, using better tactics and more powerful armies no matter how wrong or unresearched such a view is. Post numero uno is a prime example of this attitude.

Montserrat
05-06-2006, 11:37
I have 2500 points of eldar....i have no starcannons, and only 1 WL, this WL has more than a year of dust, it was not included on any list i remeber...

I'v played barcelona's GW central Rogue trader Tournament, my list has no Starcannons and no WL, have no farser councel (was vainilla). The falcon was included. vypers whit scatter lasers, 6 rangers, guardians whint misile launccher, deaht spin (no ide the name in english) suport batery, dark repers and striking scorpions, and a min. farser.

PLayed vs necrons, caos dark eldar, eldar & tau. (1 of caos was exterminated losing 2 striking scorpions and a few guardians)


I finished second losing no battles. It's not about starcannons i think. Every time an eldar wins its because its list? no.

devolutionary
05-06-2006, 11:44
You are an extremely rare Eldar player. At least the list is.

Wraithbored
05-06-2006, 11:48
Why people hate us? Simple bad players and whiners. I am an Eldar player and I play a very balanced list everyone in my gaming group can attest to that. I have 3 Starcannons total and guess what only 1 bright lance and only 1 missile launcher. Yes I do use biel tan, and no i don't field the "invulnerable" Falcon, i also field the Fire Prism.

Also why people hate is the fact that bad players abuse and overabuse the list. And they make all eldar players look bad by doing it.

It's true Eldar players got a semi crappy deal with our last dex but I am sure the new dex will fix that.

Also the seer council of doom, What are these people thinking!?!? Unequipped warlocks? That is so lame and boring I can't even begin to describe it.

And about the gripe people have with our Waveserpents, it's our only transport option, or would you prefer Falcons instead? Don't forget we pay through the nose for a waveserpent. If we hang some upgrades on it it rivals a Leman russ.

And other people are to blame too. Yes okay if you faced a cheesed out Eldar army you have a right to complain, but only against that one player, however if you lost to a got tactician kindly shut up, or better yet get over it IT'S JUST A GAME. And there is too much generalization in 40k these days. Personally I dislike some SM players, but not all of them. And I even met over 7 IW players that were quite simply great guys.

But the thing that makes me boil the most is people who haven't even faced and eldar army and called them cheese, preemptive cheesing? Come on play first judge later, personally I can't judge many armies from 40k as I've never played against them, but I want to.

The Eldar do require a lot of tactics and thought when using a balanced list. But be honest all of you EACH AND EVERY ARMY HAS A NO BRAINER LIST. Not 1 is an exception. To name a few: SM drop pod Boo's, castellan mines, asscannon of doom armies, Necron phalanx, Imperial army of shooty doom or drop troops of doom, Ork Speed freeks(debatable but people used to cry cheese over this), DE webway kaboom, Chaos Daemon bomb and DP with syren, Saim-Hann Vyper of doom and the Ulthwe uber seer councils, the Tau fish of fury these are all of the top of my head oh yes and any army gun-linetastic would field :D.

Back on topic the Eldar are a great army and some of us really try to play them in character be it Biel-Tan,Saim-HAnn. Utlhwe, Iyanden or Alaitoc. But some people out there have made a really bad name of us all and quite frankly I think they are a minority. An unscrupulous little group of bastards that have to make everyone else look bad.

[/rant]

Sekhmet
05-06-2006, 11:49
Eldar, come with me, throw down your Starcannons and look to a bright new future! Montserrat has show us the way, a shining new golden path filled with things that may be strange to you, but have always been there. Lone farseers, missile launchers, and .. dare I say .. scatter lasers await you and more! Come and see this bright new future and help forge it!


<- doesn't play Eldar at all.

Rork
05-06-2006, 11:50
There is no moral high ground in this game.

The fact is the game contains:

Eldar cheese
Space Marine cheese
Chaos space marine cheese
Tau fromage

etc.

All of which can have very capable players using them (Every list has something that is "point and click" though).

I haven't really changed my eldar list much in three years, so I have a wealth of experience using it against most sorts of army. Do I lose? Certainly. But if another really grabs me like the Eldar, then I'd try to do the same sort of thing - build up a "bank" of experience against various armies and their variations.

It's easy for some eldar players to crow about their success, but chances are there is an army around the corner that will wipe you off the table (it often involves three railguns :cries:). The most important rule of being a good general is never assume that your army is better than someone elses - as soon as you relax you will lose.

Kriegsherr
05-06-2006, 11:53
Once again.

People don't hate ELDAR. People don't hate MARINES.

People hate players that trick out their army to WAAC. Because most player would have to trick out their army too to still stand a chance.

The Eldar have, thanks to Gav Thorpe, a very imbalanced armylist. And if you take the good choices and leave out the bad ones, the army gets more than only nasty.
Same with the new Marine dex. Some choices are a little bit over the top, some are not. As long as both are in an army, noone has a problem.


As long as players would pick choices because they like the minis or it fits their tactics, noone would have a problem. But picking the best choices and then looking for a tactic for this army, something some players do, really freaks me out.

Vanger
05-06-2006, 12:08
@Montserrat: Warseer rules forbid me trolling ;)

I enjoy playing Eldar armies, if their list is constructed to be fun.

But if I see another Alaitoc list, with minimalised Ranger/Pathfinder squads, or Ulthwe with Seer Councils of Doom, tweaked out Falcons, and Guardians with Starcannons, I begin to hate the players who can't put effort into making a fun army list and/or thinking about tactics.
Even tough I play UltraSMurfs, I try to make a fun army list, and think about tactics, and if I can I try to avod Las/Plas squads, and asscannons.

Sekhmet
05-06-2006, 12:15
You know, some people actually figure out their lists by themselves without the internet, then all of a sudden people accuse them of looking it up online and having no creativity.

froo
05-06-2006, 12:27
My Biel-Tan list is a pseudo court of the Young king.. I dont particularly like the actual court of the young king. What this means is that I've taken every aspect and included their exarchs in my army - This is all led by an Avatar.

Basically what my list includes is (2k)

Avatar , 2 Vypers, the 6 Troop Aspects, Swooping Hawks, Shining Spears, Falcon, Wraithlord.

I pretty much chose what I would expect a Biel-Tan craftworld strikeforce would look like.. Will it change in the new codex? sure.. I might drop the wraithlord for a fireprism. I've learned to play it very well, and being a very fluid list it handles most armies it comes up against.

I think the problem is when people overload on too many of the same thing which is where the issues stem from.

EG - Too many:
-starcannons
-warlocks in the seercouncil
-Monstrous Creatures
-assault cannons
-dreads
-obliterators
-- etc

Nobody I've met has had a problem with my list until after they've played it though :)

Kriegsherr
05-06-2006, 12:30
You know, some people actually figure out their lists by themselves without the internet, then all of a sudden people accuse them of looking it up online and having no creativity.

Couldn't it be that this lists are just.... to redundant? I mean, if I see a list of 6 identical squads or with only Vypers or Falcons, it might be that players never looked up the WAAC-List no.5 at the internet, but then again, its still the same list.

If the same player no tried to actually make up a list no-one else would do, then no one could accuse him of copying a list. Never heard of anyone using shoota boyz in a looted rhino built with the FW looted rhino rules. But Even though its not an ultraeffective choice, I think it would look really cool for a Blood Axe army. And I will find ways to make use of this "Panza"-boys as soon as I have built the rhino.

Never wanted to be rude man. Just wanted to point out a reason why some people might get a little bit to copied-from-the-internet if some lists come up.

jfrazell
05-06-2006, 12:30
Mmm...no. Today's eldar are but a pale shadow of their past glory.

In V4 Marines may fear eldar. IG and LATD do not. I doubt you're average nid player is overly concerned.

Kriegsherr
05-06-2006, 12:34
Mmm...no. Today's eldar are but a pale shadow of their past glory.

In V4 Marines may fear eldar. IG and LATD do not. I doubt you're average nid player is overly concerned.

Most of todays armies are a shadow of their past glory.... look at orks for example.... or IG!

A well, Necs and Tau are different.... they don't have a past glory.... but you know what I mean.

Sekhmet
05-06-2006, 12:50
A well, Necs and Tau are different.... they don't have a past glory.... but you know what I mean.

Actually in WH40k v-134 (yes, version negative 134) Necrons were so awesome they owned everyone. They were like the Marines now, everyone played Necrons. There were a few (Kr)Ork, Eldar and Old Ones players, but they mostly lost. Then GW released the Enslaver race and everyone got so mad that they stopped playing, it really wasn't fair. So GW stopped selling 40k for a while, and when they re-released it they removed the Necrons, removed the Enslavers, removed the Old Ones (they really sucked, trust me, it's for the better) and added something called "Space Marines." That's the game we have now.

jfrazell
05-06-2006, 12:51
I would say eldar are not nearly as strong as they were in V2 and V3 (Biel Tan variant). Inversely, with the arrival of DP and new Acannonyness marines have regained seom of their former strength. Ayah Orks - vanilla orks have definitely been crumped.

Again. I think the primary issue is that over half your opponents are marines/chaos marines. Eldar retain certain advantages against MEQ armies. They are weaker against hordes and Tau Fish O fury (I think). I don't in any way have a problem with that. Its actually nice to see an army lists that smashes MEQ, but I look forward to seeing what the new codex brings-hopefully greater diversity without taking away their power.

Neknoh
05-06-2006, 12:54
No hate to Eldars, no hate the Ironwarriors, no hate to High Elves etc.

My hate goes towards the players who see themselves as superior by simply playing a certain army and look down at me for what I play, for instance, Eldar Players claiming to be brilliant tacticians because they won a game aggainst me, or people patronising me in Fantasy for playing Chaos and calling it a real noob army that is point and click.

Sure, some armies do HAVE point and click lists, some armies does not, however, what army I play have NOTHING to do with that, I play what I think look cool and I try to shy away from certain norms used within said armies. It's when people bring up their Über Starcannon Army of Doom or their SAD lists and THEN proceed to claim that they are tactical geniusess for winning a game aggainst my Imperial Guard or my Chaos lists, which both are NOT built to deal with maxed out armies and are either geared to follow a theme (Battle for Stalingrad Imperial Guard) or be a nice and rounded list that offers some good gaming for both sides.

Venkh
05-06-2006, 12:55
Well i have to admit using 2 tricked Falcons and 2 Wave serpents in my 1500pt Biel-Tan force (only 2 starcannons though). However, i have found that my opponents are able to counter my army very easily if Im not really careful about my deployment and tactics.

A glancing hit on one of my falcons has a pretty good chance of stopping it shooting in the next turn and once it has stopped moving it becomes terribly exposed.

The Wave serpents are even worse and usually need to absorb some punishment before they can unload their footslogging aspects into assault.

The mechanised Beil Tan army is by no means a point and click army, any opponent that has a fair ammount of s6 or rending weaponry can cripple me in a couple of turns and my fragile aspects have a hard time assaulting a canny opponent.

I played a nid opponent with 2 tyrants, 6 carnies and 2 units of stealers last week, he could put out more fire-power than i could ever hope to absorb, the carnies all shooting with s6 or greater. I have also found that Marine players who actually use cover can give me a torrid time.

I do think that the other Eldar cheese variants are bad though, the Siam-Hann Vypers, Ulthwe Seer conference and Ailatoc ranger corporate events are abominations that should fade into history.

Kriegsherr
05-06-2006, 13:05
I played a nid opponent with 2 tyrants, 6 carnies and 2 units of stealers last week, he could put out more fire-power than i could ever hope to absorb, the carnies all shooting with s6 or greater. I have also found that Marine players who actually use cover can give me a torrid time.


A well now THAT army is real cheese. Nid MCs really rock the table if they are taken in redundant quantities and if some fast support is available. Not saying its impossible to beat, nothing is, but its a real hard combo.

I have to admit, against such an army you have three choices:
- Starting to also throw cheese at your opponent.
- Taking your normal army, trying to outwit him while preparing for a real good beating from his walking cheese of doom.
- Refuse to play him. Games are about fun for both sides, and not about WAAC. Sure, winning is one part of the fun. But close games, and always having the feeling you could loose/win, even in the last turn, is what makes a game fun in my eyes.

Wraithbored
05-06-2006, 13:06
A well now THAT army is real cheese. Nid MCs really rock the table if they are taken in redundant quantities and if some fast support is available. Not saying its impossible to beat, nothing is, but its a real hard combo.

I have to admit, against such an army you have three choices:
- Starting to also throw cheese at your opponent.
- Taking your normal army, trying to outwit him while preparing for a real good beating from his walking cheese of doom.
- Refuse to play him. Games are about fun for both sides, and not about WAAC. Sure, winning is one part of the fun. But close games, and always having the feeling you could loose/win, even in the last turn, is what makes a game fun in my eyes.
As a personal rule I take my normal army and if I fail I replay if it's a horrid nonfun event for the 2nd time I just won't play against that opponent with that army config. Simple clean and effective.

Lyinar
05-06-2006, 13:17
Actually in WH40k v-134 (yes, version negative 134) Necrons were so awesome they owned everyone. They were like the Marines now, everyone played Necrons. There were a few (Kr)Ork, Eldar and Old Ones players, but they mostly lost. Then GW released the Enslaver race and everyone got so mad that they stopped playing, it really wasn't fair. So GW stopped selling 40k for a while, and when they re-released it they removed the Necrons, removed the Enslavers, removed the Old Ones (they really sucked, trust me, it's for the better) and added something called "Space Marines." That's the game we have now.

LOL!

I'd have to say that the reason people hate Eldar is simply because of the fact that what everyone thinks are the only competitive lists (Hordes of Boxing Warlocks Seer Council; Seer Council of DOOOOOM, with the same number of Warlocks, but actually ARMED!; StarVyper Horde; Guardian Starcannon Wall; etc.), are so cheesy that Pizza Hut will probably get around to making a brand new gimmick pizza based on them.

You can make very balanced and completely non-cheesy Eldar armies if you want to, but very few of the tournament players or tournament-mentality players ever do.

Lord Malachi
05-06-2006, 14:32
I hate the Eldar because they are elves in space. I've hated elves ever since reading LotR. Their answer to the threat against Middle Earth was to sail away to the west and let everyone else deal with it. I always wondered where they went and now I know, the went into space and built Craftworlds! ;)

Lore
05-06-2006, 14:37
I use the same organization as Icewalker, just no Dark Reapers. It's Fire Dragons, lots of starcannons and lots of warp spiders plus wraithlords which are not, I repeat ARE NOT invincible by any circumstances. Just in close-combat they are annoying. :D

Starcannons and the twoshot Dark Reaper missile launcher is why they are hated methinks.

damz451
05-06-2006, 14:38
i find it funny how sm players despise star cannons when there are much worse weapons that sm players should fear i.e the Disintagrator, two modes, maximum power creates a plasma cannon weapon while yet rapid fire mode is a str4 ap3 heavy 3 weapon with bs4 skill crew and can be mounted as a trio on ravagers which will tear through sm's rediculously easily. Altho they are much rarer than the starcannon they are much more effective.

Master Jeridian
05-06-2006, 14:45
Damz- you answered your own conundrum.

Disintegrators are only available on paper thin skimmers, supporting a hideous model range in a near extinct army that relies on a single method of winning.

The Starcannon equivalent would be Marines getting Assault Cannons in Tactical and Devastator Squads...

Icarus
05-06-2006, 15:02
I'll be interested to see what people's opinions of Eldar will be in a year or two, as the 2 big problems people have with them are Starcannons and some overpowered army options.

Both should be adressed in the new Eldar Codex as the Eldar are supposed to get
a) A decent range of guns, meaning people won't just be taking Starcannons and Brightlances because they'll actually be a choice. Starcannons may also be reduced to Heavy 2.
b) Problems with army selection should be dealt with similarly as all units in the codex are supposed to be made viable which will make for much more diverse armies and cut down on the cookie-cutters. Also the Craftworld rules are changing to get rid of the problems from there.

This should lead to a much better situation for the Eldar. Then again, I'm probably being too optimistic if I think any of this will stop people complaining about them.

I'd also ask people who play Space Marine armies to try and counter the Eldar strengths on the tabeltop before you complain about them. I'm always willing to listen to the other side of the argument, but so often I see Space Marine players who put Marines and Terminators in plain view of a Starcannon even when there is ample cover to shield their advance, and then they start complaining!

Sekhmet
05-06-2006, 15:05
It's a sad day when you want your own army list nerfed just so you don't get complaints from other people.

Warjammer
05-06-2006, 15:13
It's a sad day when you want your own army list nerfed just so you don't get complaints from other people.


It is a common rant from Eldar players with thin skin. I fear for the future. The Eldar may be the new whipping boy.

HeraldoftheGods
05-06-2006, 15:21
I personaly don't fear Craftworld Eldar, and any Craftworld Eldar player I've met for a game has been ace (not played them too often, so I'm not jaded by the fact that you only ever see half of the units from the codex).

BUT...

In order to... "And you wonder why people hate Eldar? by t-tauri" in the post http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37254&page=49.
Well my theory is simple, all fear the eldar. Thats simple, eldar is a collective of players whith a high TACTICAL vision, we have the biggest troops options, we have the power of the more destructive and CREATIVE tactics. We are the more serious?...well we have powergames and kids...of course.
Using eldar is not an easy task...but it has the recompense...if yo do it well.
I can smell this fear, not all conscient, but fear.
This is exactly the reason why I don't like reading stuff by internet Eldar players. Fear you? You require more tactical genious? You are more ... serious??

Come on, get a grip. I think from my point of view the three hardest armies to play in the game are Grey Knight, Witch hunter and Dark Eldar. Yet do you see these players complaining or getting moaned at by others? No you don't, because they don't have their heads shoved up their own arses like an unfortunate number of internet Eldar players do.

senban
05-06-2006, 15:35
One intrinsic problem the Eldar list has is specialization, but as this is central to the Eldar concept it's not going to go away. It's very easy to tool Eldar for specific enemies, scatter lasers for example are great for shredding hordes, even shuriken cannon's are great on the right platform. Aspect warriors are the same, they are utterly devastating against the right targets but struggle/get annihilated if you send them against the wrong thing, which means that Eldar players will naturally be tempted to build a list that will vaporize the army that they expect to be playing against, and maybe stick stick in a squad of Dire Avengers just incase they end up facing a horde army, rather than building a take all comers list.

Grand Master Raziel
05-06-2006, 16:13
Dark Reapers have a 36" range, unless they have an Exarch with an Eldar Missle Launcher (48" range), please check the rules to make sure what you are posting is correct.

Apologies for the double post

I'm looking at the Eldar Ranged Weapon Summary right now, and it lists the range of the Reaper Launcher as 48".


Another annoyance are those Eldar players who seem to think Eldar should be better than every other army at everything (I call it Marine syndrome). Whether it be shooting, saves, vehicles, hth combat Eldar should be far superior to every other race in 40K as they are one of the oldest races around. They don't seem to understand game balance or the fact that Necrons would be even more awesome than them.

Kahadras

Kahadras, you should dub that the Eldradmaster syndrome. If you've ever seen that fellow's postings on the GW Games Development forum, you'll have to admit he pretty much epitomizes the phenomenon you're referring to.


It's a sad day when you want your own army list nerfed just so you don't get complaints from other people.

Tell me about it, Sekhmet. I'm already sick of hearing people complain about the assault cannon. If those things crop up in my army, it tends to be by accident. Well, okay, for terminator squads, they're pretty boss, but I don't tend to use them on speeders because I much prefer the other variant of Tornado (heavy flamers RULE). Perhaps more to the point, I don't count on Rending working, so you could take that off and I wouldn't give a hoot.


Anyhow, to get back to the tinkerbell that kicked off this little thread...


Well my theory is simple, all fear the eldar. Thats simple, eldar is a collective of players whith a high TACTICAL vision, we have the biggest troops options, we have the power of the more destructive and CREATIVE tactics. We are the more serious?...well we have powergames and kids...of course.

EDIT: Every time i read, "make ww twinlinked" or "autarch is X reason not uber-exarc" or "shuricannon not get rending by X reason" ETC ETC ETC ETC......I can smell this fear, not all conscient, but fear.

Well, Monty, as others have observed, it's not the army we hate. We hate the ego-inflated ******s who make comments like this with a straight face. Nothing makes me happier than to turn the tables on some arrogant jerk and have him start ranting about how it's not fair.

In addition, the whiners like the aforementioned Eldradmaster don't do much for the reputation of Eldar players, either.

If you want to play an army that requires "high tactical vision" to succeed, try playing Daemonhunters. Daemonhunters are just like Eldar, only without the easy access to long-range, high-ROF, AP3 and AP2 weaponry...or the flying transports, or the super-hard flying tank, or the nigh-indestructable HQ unit, the skimmers, the high-initiative assault troops, the cannon-toting monstrous creatures, and so on and so forth. If you can consistently win across the board with Daemonhunters, then maybe you can brag about being a tactical genius.


I'd just like to add one more general comment: cut-and-paste army lists off the Internet? That's just sad!

__________________

Sildani
05-06-2006, 16:28
Don't much care for Eldar elitism myself. Eldar take time and effort to learn how to use, yes, but that knowledge, once gained, means exactly squat in the Grand Scheme of Things. We're not curing cancer, here.

Although, if the guy who was curing cancer played Eldar, I'd be tickled pink.

Michaelius
05-06-2006, 17:01
Well arrongance is part of role playing in eldar case :D Remember than on codex cover there's "Their arrogance is matched only by their firepower" :D

Sandlemad
05-06-2006, 17:18
I agree with Malachi. What about all us who dislike eldar on philosophical grounds? ie. We think they're wusses.:)

C'mon, if you play dwarves in WHFB, then you're essentially bidden to hold a dislike of elves. And this is the kind of thing that can't help but spread over in to the other system.
I wouldn't call it hatred now. A joking punch on the arm, a few references to them as pansies and you're done. Its the same kind of fun, background-driven mentality that keeps ork players going.:p

That said, I do have a profound dislike of cookie cutter lists, regardless of army.

jfrazell
05-06-2006, 17:19
I have not found eldar players to be especially arrogant vs. anyone else. I have, however, found that there are a higher percentage of veteran players playing eldar, who tend to know how to use their army more effectively than your average marine player. But I would posit that any non-MEQ force has a higher percentage of veteran players. Eldar just have the ability to smash MEQ much more effectively.

chicodon
05-06-2006, 17:27
No army is the bloody best they all have theyre pros and cons, its how you play with them that determines how good they are :rolleyes:

Kriegsherr
05-06-2006, 17:57
No army is the bloody best they all have theyre pros and cons, its how you play with them that determines how good they are :rolleyes:

Yup.... And how you and your army are perceived by your opponents.

A Lucky Battlewagon, Rolling forward unto a IG Fireline for 3 turns before exploding, absorbing 15+ lascannon/battlecannon/earthshaker/missile launcher rounds and killing a hellhound and a Leman Russ:
"Battlewagons are cheeeeeesy!!!!!"

A well, I could show this opponent that it was pure luck what this Battlewagon did and correct his wrong perception of things.

But this is one way how "cheese" starts. The other is by noob-stomping other players... there should be an ethical codex to go easy on new players. But some player seem to just think about themselves.
If you think your tactical superior... why do you have to "show" it by making winning certain? Sometimes a uncalculated Risk makes your win less certain but the game more entertaining. And gives newcomers something to shoot at if you know what I mean.

chicodon
05-06-2006, 18:00
id love for someone to have an army will just starcannons and b lances avatar 3 falcons fully kitted howling banshees....

painted yellow now that would put the concept of cheese to its limits :D :D :D :D

Wraithbored
05-06-2006, 18:13
Yup.... And how you and your army are perceived by your opponents.

A Lucky Battlewagon, Rolling forward unto a IG Fireline for 3 turns before exploding, absorbing 15+ lascannon/battlecannon/earthshaker/missile launcher rounds and killing a hellhound and a Leman Russ:
"Battlewagons are cheeeeeesy!!!!!"

A well, I could show this opponent that it was pure luck what this Battlewagon did and correct his wrong perception of things.

But this is one way how "cheese" starts. The other is by noob-stomping other players... there should be an ethical codex to go easy on new players. But some player seem to just think about themselves.
If you think your tactical superior... why do you have to "show" it by making winning certain? Sometimes a uncalculated Risk makes your win less certain but the game more entertaining. And gives newcomers something to shoot at if you know what I mean.
I agree and the best games tend to be draws, meaning both sides had equal luck and grasp of tactics, or a combination of those.

Sekhmet
05-06-2006, 18:27
id love for someone to have an army will just starcannons and b lances avatar 3 falcons fully kitted howling banshees....

painted yellow now that would put the concept of cheese to its limits :D :D :D :D

Y'know, banshees aren't that great. I never found them much of a threat, honestly.

Dakkagor
05-06-2006, 18:29
I 'ate da panzees coz dey stink funny and are pointy eared goitz who moan alot about how terrible everyfing is when I chop em up good and propa.

Or: I dislike eldar players, because they seem determined to convince everyone around them that to play eldar you have to be a certified member of mensa. . . instead of some yokel who figured out how to crowbar as many starcannons into his list as possible.

The best game I ever had against eldar was a 3000pt battle with a scorpion and 3 wraithlords. . . . and some waveserpents! I gave him a fair old drubbing, as he did to me (called it a draw) but the player had the gall to call my ork powerklaws "cheesy". 3 wraithlords and a superheavy, and an army full of aspect warriors? Hmm. .. I think not.

Interestingly enough, when he used his "anti ork" marines, with 3(!!!) predator destructors, I tore him a new one. Massacred him down to the last, screaming, blood soaked, surrounded marine. Took maybe 50% casulties tops.

My orks are a well oiled meq destroying machine. . .

shutupSHUTUP!!!
05-06-2006, 18:40
I don't hate eldar, I do find some of them feel they are entitled to win against some armies ignoring game balance and fun for the other player (jfrazell's posts for instance, to paraphrase: "I'm happy there is an army with an unfair advantage against MEQ's" :eyebrows: ).

Then there is this unfounded notion that "Eldar players are better". It is intruiging behaviour and I notice it in computer games from time to time too, a group of people designate themselves as superior despite the fact that, in this case for instance, Eldar don't need any more ability to play than many other races. I think "egoistical nerd with no social skills" sums up the impression I get when Eldar players behave in this way.

The original statements by the thread starter had me snorting my drink through my nostrils, it was hilarious reading what a jumped up Eldar player, who can't keep his baselesss sense of superiority to people who play a different set of toy soldiers to himself state what he thinks. I think I'll save it somewhere so I can give an example of this sort of attitude in future discussions.

Zzarchov
05-06-2006, 18:43
I find its mostly marine players who hate Eldar, since they are naturally Anti-MEQ, this is the same syndrome that many horde army players hate Marines since they are naturally Anti-Horde.

Revlid
05-06-2006, 19:10
Note: i'm not saying the other playes are idiot, only other armys, like marines necrons...etc are no t complex enought to call the attention of this kind of player, he/she selects eldar.


Quibble #1: Rubbish
Quibble #2: Who is "other playes" and why is he "idiot"?



Its all about fear. "those fuking eldar" one second later of being masacred by a quirurgical atack.


Quibble #3: A Seer Council of Doom/Tri-Wraithlord army is not surgical, unless surgeons are those guys with chainsaws who cut trees.
Quibble #4: What on earth is a "quirurgical"?



I can smell this fear, not all conscient, but fear.

Quibble #5: What's a conscient? A conscience? Why would they feel guilty about making fun of Eldar? And how can you smell fear over the internet?

I have no problem games-wise with Eldar, but player wise the only players I've met have been, shall we say, a tad arrogant. I also despise Eldar background-wise on the basis that I don't like anything Elvish. Poofy point-ears. :)

chicodon
05-06-2006, 19:36
Y'know, banshees aren't that great. I never found them much of a threat, honestly.

Theyre ok in a wave serpy :)

lord_blackfang
05-06-2006, 19:38
Theyre ok in a wave serpy :)
But they can't assault on the turn they disembark, my army got totally shafted, cry whine moan etc. If a 250-pts Marine tank can have an Assault ramp, so must an Eldar tank at half the cost!!!

^why I hate Eldar

Orbital
05-06-2006, 19:42
This thread was a really bad idea. I'm sorry to state that so starkly, but making "anti-Eldar sentiment" into an actual issue by bringing it to the fore and throwing a spotlight on it will polarize some people and alienate others... when it's not really an issue at all.

Eldar players: How many times do you go to a friendly game and get chewed out for playing Eldar? 10% of the time? 5%? Less? How many people *really* look you in the eye and say "I hate Eldar and therefore I hate you"? The truth is that most gamers have their personal preferences by, typically, are smart enough to know the difference between a fictional army on the table and a real, live person in front of them. In my gaming circles, the people who have a "hate" on for Eldar are considered weird and anti-social, even among Marine players. The same would be true if they had a similar feeling for other armies. Why? Because this is a social game first and foremost, and anyone who gets that worked up over other peoples' armies are taking that in the wrong direction... and most gamers know that.

Marine Players: Do you *really* begrudge Eldar players? Do you really lie awake at night hating Eldar with every fiber of your being? Do you all get together and discuss Eldar in coffee shops and diners, talking about how much you hate them, forming clubs and mailing lists? I'm going to doubt that you do... not because you, in truth, want to kiss an Eldar player on the lips, but because life is too short to waste it on hate.

Some Eldar-haters are just plain freaking crazy and, frankly, some Eldar players are even worse... but they make up a very slim minority of what's out there. Why focus on the small contingent of people who want to bring more negativity and polarization and prejudice to a game about space battles using plastic and metal dollies?

Guys, for the most part you really don't hate each other or your respective armies. Don't let this thread trick you into thinking you have to side with one camp or the other. People are way, way too free with using the word "hate" in this world as it is.

AgentZero
05-06-2006, 19:52
blah blah blah

Overreacting quite a lot there M.
You got the kids all riled up too.
I rate the topic "horrible".


With regards to the few grots who think they "hate" or dislike Eldar on a whole......first, they're unenlightened..............
second.............people probably only have a problem with the power gamers who field tons of starcannons or fleet sized seer councils. Other than that there is no credible reason for anyone to completely dislike another army in the game save for personal preferences.
For exapmle, I do not like playing against Necron. Not because I "hate" the force or those who use them, I just find the Necron to be on the boring side and it doesn't excite me to play them.

If you're talking about whiners who have a tendency to complain about aspects of other army's features, well the Eldar are no different from any other force.
There will always be crybabies whining about something in a list, no matter what force you use.
That's what happens when GW decides to dumb the game down so 10 year olds can play.

warboss48
05-06-2006, 20:01
i only dislike eldar in a background way, because i dont like elves of any kind. cos' dey aren't big an' ard like da boyz:p
i have no problems with eldar players as a whole, just the few that decide they are better because they collect eldar and the others things that have been listed before.

-jordan

Da Reddaneks
05-06-2006, 20:09
i have no problem with eldar. i would date an eldar chick in a heart beat if she was hot.

Getz
05-06-2006, 20:21
Why do I hate Eldar? Because of Eldar players like the berk who started this thread...

Seriously, I agree 100% with Orbital. Although my personal experience with Eldar players has unfortunately been generally negative, I'm well aware that's because two out of the three Eldar players I occasionally game against are complete pillocks, and are in no way representative of Eldar players en masse...

And to be honest, I just don't bother playing against those two guys any more as they wouldn't be any fun t play against no matter what they brought to the table.

Indeed, I have been occasionally tempted to build a small Eldar list as some of their stuff is just so Freaking Cool...

So no, I don't really hate Eldar and nor do I fear them...

Khaine's Messenger
05-06-2006, 20:30
Don't let this thread trick you into thinking you have to side with one camp or the other.

Indeed. I imagine most of the people in this thread have been citing reasons certain other people have for hating Eldar, yet hardly do so themselves. The opening question was not "why do YOU hate the Eldar?" but rather "why people hate Eldar?" and many people feel bound to answer truthfully. It's just off-the shelf from there, and the "magic" of the internet takes its inevitable course.... :eyebrows:

Duel_Crisis
05-06-2006, 20:31
When you say Eldar, are we grouping the whole race and all its variations in there? Do people that hate Eldar, hate Dark Eldar equally? Do they hate Exodite armies, and Craftworld armies, or are we talking a certain kind of Eldar?

I don't hate Eldar. There are tactics to deal with Eldar that extend outside of an army list. There are invidual weaknesses in any unit, and moments of stupidity that anyone that can recognize can deal with. I'm sure there is some type of thread around here that teaches you how to deal with Starcannons without having to resort to changing your list.

lee
05-06-2006, 20:32
now i dont mind eldar players at all .at my local club we have a this one eldar player who has a army list like the one that won the gt this year he loses all the time. just goes to show that its the player who makes the army work not the list

Sekhmet
05-06-2006, 20:36
silly racists... Eldar are people too. Can't we all just live in peace?

Clang
05-06-2006, 20:42
Traditionally, dwarves always hate elves, so naturally us thousands of Squat players feel obliged to hate Eldar.

Anyway, I hear the new Eldar Codex is changing starcannons to be Strength 5 and 12" Range, so that should make everyone happy... :)

Marshal Lazarus
05-06-2006, 20:48
Well, I'll admit I didn't go through the thread as I doubt my answer would be changed by whether or not someone has said it before:

I like the Eldar. I like playing against them. I dislike certain posters on the board who want the Eldar to have the HTH ability of MEQs, shoot better than the Tau, and basically want everything handed to them in the new codex. I'm not trying to point fingers, but it sounds thus far like every single "wish list" item is coming true (short of rending cats). That's a bit disturbing for me, but one thing I've learned is that as far as rules go, you may get it in your codex re-write, but you're also going to pay handsomely for it if not lose things as well.

As a marine player, I understand the need for a long overdue facelift/codex re-write. I really do. I'm excited about a new codex and some of the new models. It's hard not to secretly want an Eldar army after looking at some of the new models and sculpts.

I just hope and pray that the new codex doesn't turn out to be another C:CSM.

Nothin but love, tho.

Sekhmet
05-06-2006, 20:48
Anyway, I hear the new Eldar Codex is changing starcannons to be Strength 5 and 12" Range, so that should make everyone happy... :)
HAHHAHA that's funny. I don't know if you're serious or not, but that might be one of the biggest game changing effects to date. hahahahaha.

Michaelius
05-06-2006, 21:02
I dislike certain posters on the board who want the Eldar to have the HTH ability of MEQs, shoot better than the Tau, and basically want everything handed to them in the new codex. I'm not trying to point fingers, but it sounds thus far like every single "wish list" item is coming true (short of rending cats). That's a bit disturbing for me, but one thing I've learned is that as far as rules go, you may get it in your codex re-write, but you're also going to pay handsomely for it if not lose things as well.


Not to sound like certain posters :D but eldar should hit really hard while being vulnerable and expensive at least that's how i read Eldar fluff.

Taldaan
05-06-2006, 21:16
silly racists... Eldar are people too. Can't we all just live in peace?

"In the grim darkness of the far future there is only tolerance" doesn't have quite the same ring to it.

Sekhmet
05-06-2006, 21:26
"In the grim darkness of the far future there is only tolerance" doesn't have quite the same ring to it.
No, I guess it doesn't. :cries:

What would the game be called, Love Stick 40,000? Sounds like a... ... never mind.

Souleater
05-06-2006, 22:15
Well, I 'hate' Eldar because...

1. I play Dark Eldar, so feel duty bound to hate CE Eldar for RP reasons. (Actually part of why I started another 'cron army :) )

2. Their refusal to just roll over and die and let the young races get on with it gets up my nose.

3. Hyper arrogant Eldar players who think that only tactical geniuses play Eldar. Best player I know has played SW since day one of RT - he doesnt' feel the need to crow about it, though.

Wintermute
05-06-2006, 22:18
Its all about fear. "those ******* eldar" one second later of being masacred by a quirurgical atack.

Moserrat

I've edited your first post on the thread (quoted above) to remove a swearword. We have very strict rules about the use of obscene language on WarSeer - its banned. Use of obscene language is punishable by a Strike being issued and our access to the forum being suspended for at least 24 hours.

Please heed ny advice and don't post such language again.

Additionally will you please take the time to read the WarSeer Forum Rules and Posting Guidelines which can be found here (http://www.warseer.com/forums/faq.php?faq=rules)

Wintermute
The WarSeer Inquisition

Comandos
05-06-2006, 23:01
Exuse me, but you are bieng very seriotipocal. I never meat one, but i'm sure somewhere out there there are the 60 SC people. Like i'm sure somewhere there are the 6 Carni people and the 3 obligator people and the X Assult cannon people. There is chease in every army.

Now, playing real Eldar, and not some min maxed list with SCs is mighty hard. I am playing for a year now, and all I had is my army handed to me. So? I don't complain. I make every defeat a lesson, tring to take something with me. Sadly by the way, a lot of times the something to take back is "don't play the 2 X 5 troops 3 ordenence X player" when X can be any army. Most people I play are good sports, but there are always bad players.

Now, I play Biel Tan. Yes, I get to take elite troopers as my basic troops. But, so do SMs, and my "Space Marines" have the survibility of a fire warrior at sometimes 38 point price, so don't you call Biel Tan chease. Biel Tan requieres lots of tactics to do well with, and as such a VERY tactical army.

Killgore
05-06-2006, 23:24
if spacemarine players knew that there is such a thing as a coversave they'd be less fearful of the starcannon

oh the ignorance that comes with having a 3+ save army.

paddyalexander
05-06-2006, 23:27
Saying that people fear Eldar because their players are mostly tactical geniuses is absurd. Every army that doesn't work to a gimmick has to be played tactfully to win.

Most expeirienced gamers know that there isn't an all powerfull army list out there. I play as most of the armies that GW has produced ecept for Eldar, Dark Eldar, 'Nids & Witchhunters. I play against Eldar, Dark Eldar & 'Nids all the time.

When selecting units for any army list I pick them based on an invisioned roll in my force. Even with armies that are considered tactless by most Eldar players like Orks need to have unit rolls defined for them. I even take into account rules such as escallation etc.

One of the biggest problems with players today isn't their army lists but the tables on which they play on being devoid of terrain. Playing with at least 1/4 of the area of the board covered with terrain makes for a more tactfull game & nullifies powergamers who think that they are Napolean for taking 10+ starcannons/assaultcannons/plasmarifles. I also play against IWs and enjoy a near 50/50 win/loose ratio simply because of the amount of cover on the board.

russian
05-06-2006, 23:36
i play mainly eldar and DE its not the list i dislike just some of the player,and im not talking just about sm, there is a bloke down at my store who has a nasty list but hes nice as can be and even though he has a solid list its enjoyable to play against him, i dont care what list a play against, had a warpscreen 5 fex's boo u run army against me and givien it a good go with nemorous of my differant armys and variations (i normally lose occationally beet it) but the person who lays it is sociable and nice, i wouldnt care what army people played against me if they were scialble and played in the spirit of the game, because i dislike picky players who try and adapt the rules to their own ends and exploit them to people and claim its in the book and such and the person doesnt check because a they dont want to cause an argument or b are trusting, those people could play the worse put together list ever and still be arfull to play against, its about the hobby and being sociable with it,not about winning at all costs to the extant that u suck the fun out of the gamelike a paraiah

Warlord Kyle
05-06-2006, 23:45
i don't hate eldar im just wary
my first ever tournement, my 3rd ever game, the first round of the tournemet....
i was nids he was eldar....
it was an elimation round...
he went first...
i lost every single one of my synapse creatures, that i hid behind a hill because i didn't know star cannons basically disregarde cover...
everysingle one of my synapse creatures dead on the first round of the game...
needless to say i lost...
one thing to say, ELDAR ARE AWSOME!!!(espesially star cannons)
this is coming from an nid/ork player

Comandos
05-06-2006, 23:56
i don't hate eldar im just wary
my first ever tournement, my 3rd ever game, the first round of the tournemet....
i was nids he was eldar....
it was an elimation round...
he went first...
i lost every single one of my synapse creatures, that i hid behind a hill because i didn't know star cannons basically disregarde cover...
everysingle one of my synapse creatures dead on the first round of the game...
needless to say i lost...
one thing to say, ELDAR ARE AWSOME!!!(espesially star cannons)
this is coming from an nid/ork player

Ammm... dude? Starcanons don't nagate cover. You still get a cover save as normal.

russian
06-06-2006, 00:01
i hope your referring to the mobility of the way they got there to negate the cover ie vipers moving to get an open shot rather than them being ableto negate cover

unclejimbo827
06-06-2006, 00:04
I just dislike elves as a whole...

Makaber
06-06-2006, 00:08
There are several reasons I cringe at Eldar. First off, there's the gameplay mechanics. They're supposed to be mobile, hard hitting, specialist, and extremely frail. However, the Codex is made in such a way that the most effective Eldar armies effectivly ignore or negate these minuses, opting for guardian gunlines, mass starcannons, slow and survivable Wraithlords, and Falcons upgraded until near-invincibility. Oh, not to forget the Seer Council, being the singlemost survivable unit in the game with their re-rollable 4+ inv. saves. Rarely do you see an army including any of the many exotic finesse units the Codex includes.

Secondly, the attitude of a vast portion of Eldar players, who play them because they are "best". Also, because of the Eldar pitch as a finesse army, they seem to relish in playing some sort of more advanced version of the game, despite the army lists rarely reflecting this. I'm not saying all Eldar players are like this, but the proportion of arrogant Eldar-playing snobs are definitely higher than amongst Orks or Imperial Guard.

Finally is the entire game world image of them. As a race, they're too slick, too mystical, too flawless. I don't dig that. I like stuff gritty and mean.

Shield of Freedom
06-06-2006, 00:32
I play Eldar. This preposterous claim that all we do is stock up on starcannons and use no tactical thinking is crap. I have THREE starcannons in my WHOLE 1850pt army. (our normal point value for games and tournys at my local store). I have won two tournaments with it and placed third in another. I do NOT use ANY craftworld Eldar lists, I do NOT use Guardian Horde tactics. I use a balanced list of troops and vehicles. Manuever properly for lanes of fire, assault with accuracy and numbers, keep mobile and most of all, keep the initiative to force my opponent to REact instead. If you DO play a "balanced" "all-commers" list then the Eldar are VERY hard to get right and take a lot of finnesse to win. When you do though it is a very satisfying win. With the Eldar you have LOTS of choices in the codex so you can change up your list all the time (I know there are some Eldar players who swear by, or swear against, certain units but what fun is that?). I can also take part in every sequence of the game, I can manuever well in the movement phase, I can shoot lots of firepower, and I can assault with the best of the assault oriented units and armies.

Most of my opponents are Space Marines, Tyranids and Necrons. Necrons are the toughest for me to face (admitedly due to my lack of starcannons) but I can manage with good firepower, and good assault units.

As for Eldar players whining that we don't get enough love...well if you play Space Marines you wouldn't know. The truth is our codex is over 6 years old. We are using models from BEFORE 2nd edition (wraithguard, wraithlord, Warwalker) only the guns have changed on those models. We have rules that either don't exist in 3.5 edition or don't work as intended anymore. I pay 20 points for a weapon that is worse than a 5pt Heavy Bolter (the Shuriken Cannon). I mean c'mon, I'm an Eldar player who wishes I had lower tech weapons because thier better?:wtf:

Tournament winning list:
Avatar

Farseer
-Witchblade
-Shuriken Pistol
-Mind War
-Guide
-Fortune
-Spirit Stones

11 Guardian Defenders
-Warlock w/Witchblade, pistol, Conceal
-Starcannon Platform

11 Guardian Defenders
-Warlock (same as above)
-Brightlance Platform

10 Howling Banshees
-Exarch w/Executioner
-Wave Serpent w/Spirit stone, TW Shurken Cannon + Shuriken Cannon

10 Fire Dragons
-Exarch w/Firepike and Burning Fist
-Wave Serpent w/Spirit Stone, TW Shruriken Catapults + TW Starcannons

10 Striking Scorpions w/Haywire and Plasma Grenades
-Exarch w/Scorpion's Claw, Crushing Blow, Stealth

Falcon w/ TW Shuriken Catapults, Pulse Laser, Starcannon
-Spirit Stones
-Holo-field

Wraithlord
-Bright Lance

1843 points!

Lord of ???
06-06-2006, 02:00
Meh i dislike Eldar

Its not their lists that i dislike (I dislike any which beat mine of course :p)

Its the whole background of them

I dislike Elves and Eldar are Space Elves.

cailus
06-06-2006, 02:40
I like Eldar, but they are the only army I've never played against in 10 years of Warhammer.

I like the idea of elite and highly advanced warrior mystics that belong to an ancient and dying race.

I am actually thinking of starting an Eldar army especially as they have cool new plastic Dire Avengers. But my little Orkses only have 800 points and I need more greenskins to slaughter stoopid oomies.

In fact I hate the Imperium the most (even though I have an Imperial Marine army) simply because they are human and are the good guys when compared to everything else.

Grand Warlord
06-06-2006, 02:42
I don't have a problem with the Eldar at all, but facing an army of starcannons losing its funness after awhile. So its a player vs player thing.

Yarick Zan
06-06-2006, 02:42
Meh i dislike Eldar

Its not their lists that i dislike (I dislike any which beat mine of course :p)

Its the whole background of them

I dislike Elves and Eldar are Space Elves.


and here i thought i was the only one. mine is a severe dislike that i think cannot be curtailed by anything. infact i actively root for wanton elven destruction of any kind be it space elves or the eldar.

Ardathair
06-06-2006, 02:50
Sorry I am so late with this. (will edit later)


Posted by Sekhmet
Because technically a charge is a tactic. And you're obviously deciding to use the charge, therefore you're making a tactical decision.

Another tactical decision would be to run your army against your table edge, not shoot and not move and wait until your enemy breaks your army and they run off the board.

Charging is obviously the better tactic, therefore Eldar players are "tactical."

Thank you for describing Blood Angel, and Tyrannid Tactics to a T. This is not an Eldar Tactic.


@Kriegsherr

Unfortunately too many narrow minded players assume that just because they saw a few Eldar players take 10+ Star Cannons, or Space Marine players take 6 man las-plas squads, they assume that ALL players do, and immediately start whining CHEESE until you over compensate by appeasing, "See I took guardians, put my rangers out in the open, have no Starcannons or Bright Lances in a 2,000 point game and my Farseer only has one power which I won't use. What else do I have to do declare my uncheesiness?"


Posted by Makaber:
Finally is the entire game world image of them. As a race, they're too slick, too mystical, too flawless.
Obviously you haven't read the Eldar background.

Orbital
06-06-2006, 06:21
An example of "Eldar Hate" that I don't have a problem with:

i only dislike eldar in a background way, because i dont like elves of any kind. cos' dey aren't big an' ard like da boyz:p

An example of "Eldar Hate" that I do have a problem with:

People select eldar because they want to bring 10+ star cannons to the table. That's not skill, it's something that tastes good with macaroni and also tastes good in sandwiches. :cheese:

First example: Fluff-based hate. The game is more fun when these rivalries get played out on the table, and then the players can go have a snack and chat about it later.

Second example: Generalizations galore. He's explaining why I chose to play Eldar, and he doesn't even know me. Does he know that I don't even use Starcannons in my army? Does he know that I'm not the only one? Of course not... but there he goes anyhow.

Which leads me to this (about an Eldar player who doesn't take Starcannons):

You are an extremely rare Eldar player. At least the list is.

Ridiculous. This is a myth based on the fact that many *prominent* Eldar players have overdone it with Starcannons. The fact is that most of the rest of us (not Eldar players; I mean *everyone*) want to just have a good, fair game. Unfortunately, the sins of a few have made the rest of us wear scarlet letters.

Again... we're all just players. Some of us are good guys, some not. Those of us who are good guys want fair, fun games. Those of us who aren't want to win and are somehow emotionally invested in doing so to the exclusion of a fair, fun game. It's army-agnostic, guys. We really don't have any reliable data to say it's otherwise.

Anathema
06-06-2006, 06:44
Pretty much most of what I'm reading consists of Waa!! Starcannons! and Waa!! Wraithlords and Falcons! Have you people never heard of tactics? If you happen to put your marines in a little thing called "cover" your marines stop dying as easily and the eldar player may have been better off not paying 50(!) points for that BS3 guardian starcannon.I don't put my 4+ save aspects in the open when facing heavy bolters, so use a bit of sense. I'm not saying eldar can't be cheesed out, but I've been accused of taking a cheesy list with a mighty 3 starcannons in 1500 points, all vehicle mounted, and the rest of my army consisting mostly of shuriken weaponry, purely because eldar vehicles are "cheesy".

Any good player will know how to tackle eldar, it just depends on how extreme their list is. If they have static shooty, they should except to be whittled down a piece at a time while being outmanouvred and so must deploy well. If they play all out assault, they should make use of cover wisely to try and get the charge. If they play a balanced list, then they can except to compete in all areas of the game and the best player should win.

There are some overpowered eldar lists that are not fun if used in a non-competitive environment, (Seer Conference, gunline tastic, alaitoc) but not everyone plays them. A lot of Eldar hate is purely down to people only seeing their strengths and not their weaknesses. It shows that a lot of people consider Reapers cheesy, ignoring the fact that they are static (so easily avoided) only have T3/4+ save (so are speeder/missile pod/autocannon/heavy bolter bait) and cost 37 points each. They are very powerful if you leave your marines in the open directly opposite them, but die ridiculously easily and cost a ton of points. Still cheesy?

Montserrat
06-06-2006, 08:26
Eldar, come with me, throw down your Starcannons and look to a bright new future! Montserrat has show us the way, a shining new golden path filled with things that may be strange to you, but have always been there. Lone farseers, missile launchers, and .. dare I say .. scatter lasers await you and more! Come and see this bright new future and help forge it!


<- doesn't play Eldar at all.

(sorry my english first)

I'have to say someting, yes i'm posibly a rare player....always liked the lost causes...my eldar cause is that i dont need the most powerfull units to win, its about tactics and fluffy love lists :D.

BUT, i still demand that the eldar codex has a 50% of totally nerf units... this is why those that hate eldar does not understand...

devolutionary
06-06-2006, 08:41
Ridiculous. This is a myth based on the fact that many *prominent* Eldar players have overdone it with Starcannons. The fact is that most of the rest of us (not Eldar players; I mean *everyone*) want to just have a good, fair game. Unfortunately, the sins of a few have made the rest of us wear scarlet letters.

Personal experience is ridiculous? Honestly, I expected a bit more from you on this one, buddy.

At the end of the day I don't hate Eldar, but I do despise compulsive whiners who feel the need to go on the attack against anybody who calls them on it... wait, that sounds like people. Damn, caught out by prejudice once again.

Screw this thread, I'm going home. All those who are fed up with the backstabbing, boring rhetoric and animosity, follow me to our new Mecca - The WarSeer Painting Support Group!

Orbital
06-06-2006, 08:49
Personal experience is ridiculous? Honestly, I expected a bit more from you on this one, buddy.

I thought the claim made in the quoted comment was ridiculous, yeah. Saying that a person who plays fair is rare for that army type? Come on.

Personal experience *is* valuable, but it's not the same as research sampling, and some people get the idea the two overlap. If you know ten Eldar players and they're all jerks, that's not a good enough study sample to say that all the Eldar players out there are jerks. If you're on an internet forum in which 100 people play Eldar, and they're all jerks, that's still not a big enough sample, either. You can't even get critical mass without 1%, and if you've played 1% of all the Eldar players in the world then you must be very busy indeed. And that's just sample size; how do you determine who's a jerk? And how do you know it isn't just you remembering the situation incorrectly to weigh it closer to your pre-conceived notions? Do you trust the input of people you meet in an uncontrolled environment such as the internet to somehow form an accurate picture of what's happening out there? Even when you have an adequate study sample, the means of study are sorely skewed. Yet someone can play against an Eldar player or two who are jerks and they think this means the entire Eldar world is full of them.

The idea that an Eldar player who plays fair makes them a rare Eldar player is an idea formed on prejudice (based on the popularity of certain GW winners who are well-known for cheesed-out Eldar lists) and bias. It's a bad conclusion and, as such, ridiculous.

Kriegsherr
06-06-2006, 10:04
Thank you for describing Blood Angel, and Tyrannid Tactics to a T. This is not an Eldar Tactic.


"Charging" is no tactic. "Charging" is an action a unit can take. A "Refused flank" is a tactic. A "Fireline with deepstriking stormtroopers" is a tactic.

Tyrannids or BAs just running towards the enemy without fire support usually get slaughtered. The "Just charge" tactic is therefore a rather bad one. I don't see it as a real tactic. Even Berzerker players should have a trick up their sleeves if they want to be called "tacticians".

Sorry for rambling around, but what some players call "Tactic" is amusing ;)




@Kriegsherr

Unfortunately too many narrow minded players assume that just because they saw a few Eldar players take 10+ Star Cannons, or Space Marine players take 6 man las-plas squads, they assume that ALL players do, and immediately start whining CHEESE until you over compensate by appeasing, "See I took guardians, put my rangers out in the open, have no Starcannons or Bright Lances in a 2,000 point game and my Farseer only has one power which I won't use. What else do I have to do declare my uncheesiness?"


Well I see your point. I know, some players just try to penalize the opponent to make up for their lack in skills. And some players do it even if any reasonable human beeing would see that their opponent already does limit his army.
I think this player just don't spend enough time analyzing their defeats. They number-crunch in advance, but they don't do it afterwards. Else they might have noticed that there was some serious bad luck involved. Or would have seen the brilliant tactic of the opponent, that just worked very well. Even if you only have two of ten possible SC-Bearers outfitted with them, if this weapons are at the right place at the right time and you even get a little lucky, it might look really overpowered to an opponent at the first glance.

If he now spends the time to see why his precious assault squad was slaughtered by two well placed SC at a crucial moment during the game, he might see that he maybe would have better spend another round moving and took the less direct way through cover.... instead of desperately trying to get into CC and get their points back. Especially if the objective is not slaughtering the enemy.

Well, not all players now do this. Some just cry "Eldar cheeeeese" and start ranting. Instead of adapting their tactics (sadly more often they adapt their army. But thats a different story)

The problem is now more with the opponent than with your army. Maybe you should spend the time to show him the facts. Show him that your army is not *that* good, show him ways to avoid getting slaughtered by SC or WL. It might be a pain in the *** that they not seem to be able to do it themselves, but then again. Their your opponents. If you want a good game, you need a good opponent. And as always... if you want something changed, do it yourself ;)

Lame Duck
06-06-2006, 10:10
The thing is, alot of the time on forums when people mention that they play eldar they immmediatly feel that they are a better player tactically than any other player. On stupid threads like 'Whats your favourite/ most kick@ss army' any one that says Eldar usually mentions that you have to be a super genious to use them. I realise this doesnt apply to all Eldar players, but Its kind of annoying that just because they play Eldar they feel superior. And this is the only race where that attitude occurs.

Anyway, fluff wise eldar are really arrogant, and i dont like cocky people (or aliens)

Kriegsherr
06-06-2006, 11:21
The thing is, alot of the time on forums when people mention that they play eldar they immmediatly feel that they are a better player tactically than any other player. On stupid threads like 'Whats your favourite/ most kick@ss army' any one that says Eldar usually mentions that you have to be a super genious to use them. I realise this doesnt apply to all Eldar players, but Its kind of annoying that just because they play Eldar they feel superior. And this is the only race where that attitude occurs.

Anyway, fluff wise eldar are really arrogant, and i dont like cocky people (or aliens)

A well, look there always "this type of people play this army" kinda cliches.

Easygoing, nice chaps looking for a fun game and don't caring if they loose or win play orks (thought I never seen an ork powergamer myself... must be one of the few cliches that are true).

Tactical unskilled, not flufforiented "kids" play vanilla marines (no this is not true, as I myself have seen quite skilled people and fluffnuts beeing Marine players).

Powergaming Herohammer-freaks play Iron Warriors or Chaos in general (Not completly true, thought I've seen a lot of **** done with the DP, and non-powergaming CSM players generally tend to stop using/Abusing the demonic stature)

Lazy players take the necs because they're quite good out of the box (Also have seen both so not entirely true)

And arrogant "tactical geniouses" take eldar.

I think its clear, that not all players of an army fall into the army player cliche. But I have to agree that some cliches have a truth behind them. Its true that an army attracts a specific kind of player more than others, Maybe eldar attract the tactical interested player more than the fluffnut or lazy player. Maybe Eldar DO need more tactical thinking to use effectively because of their squads specialications. Maybe some of them overestimate their skill and/or just have to build up their ego with it. But that doesn't means, whoever picks up eldar and beats their opponents can claim himself a "tactical genious".
There are always people with a too much ego and a big mouth. And YOU can now show your that your superior in kind of maturity by just not listening to him and just giving him that patronizing smile every time he starts bitching how much more kleva he is.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
06-06-2006, 11:25
In order to... "And you wonder why people hate Eldar? by t-tauri" in the post http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37254&page=49.

Well my theory is simple, all fear the eldar. Thats simple, eldar is a collective of players whith a high TACTICAL vision, we have the biggest troops options, we have the power of the more destructive and CREATIVE tactics. We are the more serious?...well we have powergames and kids...of course.

Using eldar is not an easy task...but it has the recompense...if yo do it well.

Note: i'm not saying the other playes are idiot, only other armys, like marines necrons...etc are no t complex enought to call the attention of this kind of player, he/she selects eldar.

Its all about fear. "those ******* eldar" one second later of being masacred by a quirurgical atack.

EDIT: Every time i read, "make ww twinlinked" or "autarch is X reason not uber-exarc" or "shuricannon not get rending by X reason" ETC ETC ETC ETC......I can smell this fear, not all conscient, but fear.

Sorry, but I fail to see how shoe horning in as many Dark Reapers, Starcannons and Rangers when playing against Space Marine type lists has any sort of tactical thought behind it at all.

The sort of tactics you seem to believe exist only really work for Tau and Tyranids, where a certain synergy needs to be worked into the list, and then executed properly on the table. Eldar simply do not have this.

The main reason people don't like Eldar, is that the most vocal Eldar players are a bunch of whinging gits who want everything their way. Quite why this seems exclusive to Eldar players is a complete mystery!

And why are most Eldar players labelled as whinging gits? It's the same reason people not involved in the Hobby only seem to think of gamers as greasy, spotty geeks. You don't notice the ordinary. If I'm buying stuff during my lunch break, I'll be wearing my suit. Smartly dressed people go into all manner of shops. This is perfectly normal. Essentially, although coming out of a GW, I don't registeron most peoples consciousness, as theres nothing out of the ordinary about me. But, when you see some sweaty, heaving social reject ambling out, well you simply don't see that many of them, so it gets flagged up in your consciousness. As GW games do indeed attract a higher proportion of such people, your likely to notice the high volume of them in such a place, hence the reputation.

It's exactly the same with Eldar players, and indeed any army with negative connotations about the players. Because a lot of whingers seem to play Eldar, it appears that the majority of Eldar players are whinging idiots. The same with the previous examples of Iron Warriors etc.. We just don't notice the ordinary!

nevermore
06-06-2006, 11:51
In order to... "And you wonder why people hate Eldar? by t-tauri" in the post http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37254&page=49.

Well my theory is simple, all fear the eldar. Thats simple, eldar is a collective of players whith a high TACTICAL vision, we have the biggest troops options, we have the power of the more destructive and CREATIVE tactics. We are the more serious?...well we have powergames and kids...of course.

Using eldar is not an easy task...but it has the recompense...if yo do it well.

Note: i'm not saying the other playes are idiot, only other armys, like marines necrons...etc are no t complex enought to call the attention of this kind of player, he/she selects eldar.

Its all about fear. "those ******* eldar" one second later of being masacred by a quirurgical atack.

EDIT: Every time i read, "make ww twinlinked" or "autarch is X reason not uber-exarc" or "shuricannon not get rending by X reason" ETC ETC ETC ETC......I can smell this fear, not all conscient, but fear.


HAHAHA, your an idiot!!:p

Small children, closet homosexuals and retards pick eldar. They are the most boring army to play against and almost as easy as ork's to defeat. There players always cry, your necrons are boring! Where is the diversity!, While i am destroying their armour with one scarab swarm.

Kriegsherr
06-06-2006, 11:51
It's exactly the same with Eldar players, and indeed any army with negative connotations about the players. Because a lot of whingers seem to play Eldar, it appears that the majority of Eldar players are whinging idiots. The same with the previous examples of Iron Warriors etc.. We just don't notice the ordinary!

So very true. Cliches are just that... cliches. But there always are the ones that fit the cliche. And they count a tousand times as much as the ones not fitting a cliche in a normal persons perception.

And @ Monserrat:

You also just repeat a cliche. Just because there are skilled players amongst eldar player don't mean ****.
There are equally skilled amongst all other armies. And I also think that the kind of complexity you talk of is a part of almost any army in some aspects. Playing close range firefight IG is quite challenging. More so than playing close range eldar. But I wouldn't say, whoever does such an IG army an can win while limiting his army in this way is a better human beeing in any way. He just found out ways to use his army. And I really congrat him because I as shooty ork player like to firefight with IG Players with the courage to close the distance (yes, getting closer to orks not always means your imperial soldiers are screwed).

Beeing good at a tabletop game just means, you have picked a balanced army, found out good tactics to counter your opponents tactics and army and have gained some expierience. Thats all.

Even marines need tactics to win against a good enemy. yup. as impossible as it sounds.

Wraithbored
06-06-2006, 12:10
HAHAHA, your an idiot!!:p

Small children, closet homosexuals and retards pick eldar. They are the most boring army to play against and almost as easy as ork's to defeat. There players always cry, your necrons are boring! Where is the diversity!, While i am destroying their armour with one scarab swarm.
Post reported. And I saw you troll in the other thread as well. Who are you anyway, gun-line tastic with an alternate nickname?

dneff23
06-06-2006, 12:31
HAHAHA, your an idiot!!

Small children, closet homosexuals and retards pick eldar. They are the most boring army to play against and almost as easy as ork's to defeat. There players always cry, your necrons are boring! Where is the diversity!, While i am destroying their armour with one scarab swarm.

Wow...that was mature :rolleyes: So people shoud not choose Eldar because they are weak, easy to beat, and according to your comments says something about them :rolleyes:

Kahadras
06-06-2006, 12:47
I just think a lot of ill will has been generated by the percieved veiw of Eldar players that most people have. I have met people play Eldar who are perfectly alright and others who fit the steriotype to a T.

Similar accusations get aimed at Marine players as well. I have been playing Marines for five years now. I'm not a noob. I don't min max, I don't loadout on assault cannon and yet everybody who plays Marine armies is lumped togther under the title of noob. Everybody who plays Chaos is a power gamer. Everybody who plays Eldar whine and complain all the time. Everybody who play Necron are boring etc etc etc.

Kahadras

xiophen
06-06-2006, 17:25
As for why people hate Eldar. It has to do with a number of things.

Eldar have always been called cheese since the days of RT for one and unfortunatly they will always be called cheese.

In 2nd eddition the one man kill exarch, uber spiders from hell easily gave reason for why the eldar were considered the :cheese: and hated.

3rd Ed was a mockery thanks to Gav thorpes interpretations. Im certain hes a nice chap and all but he utterly destroyed what diversity the army had. Too cheap Wraithlord by 3rd ed standard not so much 4th. the 8+ starcannons, the uber seer councels are what give the the desire of anger. And the fact that too many players choose to abuse the loopholes in the list.

Plus yes Eldar players are somewhat whining wanting to return to the diversity they enjoyed in the 2nd ed.

Wintermute
06-06-2006, 17:36
Nevermore has been punished for his offensive comments. TI've edited posts which have repeated or responded to the post in question.

This matter is now closed.

Can we now return the thread to its orginal topic please?

Thanks

Wintermute

Getz
06-06-2006, 18:42
A well, look there always "this type of people play this army" kinda cliches.

Easygoing, nice chaps looking for a fun game and don't caring if they loose or win play orks (thought I never seen an ork powergamer myself... must be one of the few cliches that are true).

Tactical unskilled, not flufforiented "kids" play vanilla marines (no this is not true, as I myself have seen quite skilled people and fluffnuts beeing Marine players).

Powergaming Herohammer-freaks play Iron Warriors or Chaos in general (Not completly true, thought I've seen a lot of **** done with the DP, and non-powergaming CSM players generally tend to stop using/Abusing the demonic stature)

Lazy players take the necs because they're quite good out of the box (Also have seen both so not entirely true)

And arrogant "tactical geniouses" take eldar.

I think its clear, that not all players of an army fall into the army player cliche. But I have to agree that some cliches have a truth behind them. Its true that an army attracts a specific kind of player more than others, Maybe eldar attract the tactical interested player more than the fluffnut or lazy player. Maybe Eldar DO need more tactical thinking to use effectively because of their squads specialications. Maybe some of them overestimate their skill and/or just have to build up their ego with it. But that doesn't means, whoever picks up eldar and beats their opponents can claim himself a "tactical genious".
There are always people with a too much ego and a big mouth. And YOU can now show your that your superior in kind of maturity by just not listening to him and just giving him that patronizing smile every time he starts bitching how much more kleva he is.

Interesting, it makes my wonder what the cliche of us Guard players is..? :angel:

That said, form my own experience and reading around the different Tactics forums, it's the Guard that tend to attract the most "tactically interested" players - it certainly attracted me and I very much an old school wargamer well into my refused flanks, split deployments, picket lines and fire screens...

I'm afraid the curse for Eldar players is that the Vocal Minority that have formed the cliche (as Mad Doc Grotsnik so excellently pointed out) like to think they are tactical geniuses, but in actual fact are load mouthed snotty oiks who have discovered that "Starcannons kill Smurfs Good!!!1one" and think this qualifies them as Napoleon Boneparte.

Problem is, I know two such Eldar players but only one who plays interesting balanced and clever lists. I know the latter chap is probably more representative of the breed overall, but it's the irritating players that we remember...

PS. Kreigsherr, as it would happen, I play my Guard in a close ranged firefight style. It can be quite scary at times, but it's a lot of fun and I've had good success playing that way.

BrainFireBob
06-06-2006, 19:05
Y'know, I always stereotyped Guard players in my head as "rich bastards" or "poor broke bastards", but regardless, admired/pitied their painting grit.

Then again, that's a holdover from before the Cadian plastics. I dunno about now.

Grand Master Raziel
06-06-2006, 20:21
Now, I play Biel Tan. Yes, I get to take elite troopers as my basic troops. But, so do SMs, and my "Space Marines" have the survibility of a fire warrior at sometimes 38 point price, so don't you call Biel Tan chease. Biel Tan requieres lots of tactics to do well with, and as such a VERY tactical army.

I've found that I don't mind Biel Tan if the player takes a broad mix of Aspects. What gets up my nose is if the player takes a whole pile of one Aspect to the exclusion of all else. AKA: the Reaperwind army.

Here's a little pearl of wisdom from Kilgore...

if spacemarine players knew that there is such a thing as a coversave they'd be less fearful of the starcannon

oh the ignorance that comes with having a 3+ save army.

And here's another little nugget from Anathema

Pretty much most of what I'm reading consists of Waa!! Starcannons! and Waa!! Wraithlords and Falcons! Have you people never heard of tactics? If you happen to put your marines in a little thing called "cover" your marines stop dying as easily and the eldar player may have been better off not paying 50(!) points for that BS3 guardian starcannon.

Yeah, comments like these get up my nose, too. Y'think anybody other than a daisy-fresh newbie doesn't know this? It takes a heck of a lot more tactical acumen for a SM player to deal with the stereotypical Eldar army than it does for said Eldar army to blast the SMs off the table with starcannons. Comments like these illustrate the obnoxious arrogance of that small minority of Eldar players that the rest of us don't like.


As for Eldar players whining that we don't get enough love...well if you play Space Marines you wouldn't know. The truth is our codex is over 6 years old. We are using models from BEFORE 2nd edition (wraithguard, wraithlord, Warwalker) only the guns have changed on those models. We have rules that either don't exist in 3.5 edition or don't work as intended anymore. I pay 20 points for a weapon that is worse than a 5pt Heavy Bolter (the Shuriken Cannon). I mean c'mon, I'm an Eldar player who wishes I had lower tech weapons because thier better?

Actually, Shield of Freedom, that's not true. Until the current Codex was released, Codex Space Marines was almost as badly out of date as Codex Eldar. True, there was the whole pile of mini-dexes and whatnot, but that didn't really do the bulk of us much good. I'll concede the point on old models, but as far as old codex goes, anyone who's been playing SMs for more than 2 years can relate to that. As far as the Shuricannon/Heavy Bolter comparison goes: infantry-wise, sure, it's not as good, but on the other hand it's on a platform that lets your squad move and still fire the thing. Besides, it's been my observation that the Shuricannon was really intended to be a vehicle-mounted weapon, and as such (given the vehicles it goes on), it's a pretty worthwhile weapon.

Orbital
06-06-2006, 20:22
I've found that I don't mind Biel Tan if the player takes a broad mix of Aspects. What gets up my nose is if the player takes a whole pile of one Aspect to the exclusion of all else. AKA: the Reaperwind army.

I actually have an entire army of Fire Dragons. Can't say I remember ever losing so much with one force before!

TzarNikolai
06-06-2006, 20:40
why i hate eldar is people using stupid mindless clone cookie cutter lists they found on the internet and giving the rest of us a bad name.

people have refused to play me because i played eldar, without even looking at my army list. just assuming it was as broken as the standard eldar lists.

i learned to play eldar from the ground up, being massacred a couple of times before i figured them out and it really annoys me when a newbie turns up with a list they found on the internet, start winning games due to their overwhelming firepower etc but no real thinking. (i've seen it done with sm, csm, brettonians and chaos for fantasy) and they think they're god because of it.

tactical thinking indeed.
thats my biggest annoyance, being lumped into the same category of eldar players as those who think they have such great tactical brilliance for cramming their list full of starcannons, or 11 disruption rolls or 3 wraithlords. etc.

Grand Master Raziel
06-06-2006, 20:51
I actually have an entire army of Fire Dragons. Can't say I remember ever losing so much with one force before!

A whole army of Fire Dragons? That's funny! Admittedly, Fire Dragons are probably currently the best Wave Serpent payload you can pick, but a little more diversity would probably serve you better.

alphaecho
06-06-2006, 22:20
I've never read the Eldar Codex or took much notice of the Eye of Terror army list so I was not really aware of what an Eldar army could do. Until earlier tonight. Lets just say I did not have a very entertaining game playing an Eldar army consisting of an 18 strong Seer Council, 1 Avatar, 2 Wraithlords, 1 Falcon plus 4 x 7 man Guardian squads (with Starcannons). The guardians were held at the back shooting (when they could) while the Seer Council took 3 turns to be killed by about 25 Orks. I have no doubt that it is a good army to win with but the most entertaining thing for me was watching everyone else at the Gaming Club coming up and stroking their chins while looking at the Eldar army. Oh, there was the look on my opponent's face when my Kommando Nob with powerclaw took a Wraithlord out!!!! In one turn!!!!

My point is that if this kind of Army selection is prevalent among Eldar players, I certainly wouldn't rush out to play against another one.

Michaelius
06-06-2006, 22:36
Right becouse he took some of those 6 or 7 choices in list that are worth their points :D
Apart from 18 man seer council it still nice list. And it's rather low on the scale what can be done with ulthwe.
Your Kommando Nob taking out WL is best proof those things are balanced at current 4th edition rules too.
And why with so many shots from big shootas was seer council problem? Or maybe it was you who took tons of rokkit launchas/power claws to kill marines quickly and got pissed at their inv saves ? :D

Anathema
07-06-2006, 00:17
It takes a heck of a lot more tactical acumen for a SM player to deal with the stereotypical Eldar army than it does for said Eldar army to blast the SMs off the table with starcannons.

Depends if they're using the "stereotypical" marine army doesn't it? Marines in cover with heavy bolters have exactly the same stats to kill gunline guardians in cover (3 shots, equal range, wounds on 2's, ignores armour saves) only they have better BS and the heavy bolter costs nothing like a starcannon. 7 guardians with starcannon costs about the same as 6 marines with a heavy bolter and will kill less due to worse BS, only marines also have better Stregth, toughness, WS, leadership, ASKNF etc. the eldar in return can move and fire. Woo. So which is better and which is cheesier? If you found marine players using gunline 6-man heavy bolter squads they would soon destroy those gunline guardians if they were in cover, they'd also kill a lot of vypers too. Point is, no-one takes heavy bolters in tac squads because they all like las/plas. Why? Because everyone plays marines. Lots of marine armies are packed to the gills with plasma and ass cannons, even more so than eldar in some cases. Your choice.
Hidden powerfists kill wraithlords very well not to mention ass cannons, I use my lord as a gun platform now after he's got hit by the big hand too many times. If you don't use them, your choice.
Marine players can also infiltrate and rapid fire the tar out of guardians, and get first turn penetrating shots on elar skimmers. They can drop pod in and rapid fire the tar out of pretty much anything in an eldar gunline army as well as making most of it run off the table with Boo, both stereotypical marine armies that require no great tactical thinking to use effectively. First couple of times I played pods I got mullered severely. So I figured out some tactics and now I know how to beat them.

So in summary, you have the tools for the job, just choose not to use them or use them badly. Not my problem and doesn't make my tournament list (containing a mighty 4 starcannons and one wraithlord) cheesy. Hard yes, cheesy, no, especially compared to some other codexes out there.


Comments like these illustrate the obnoxious arrogance of that small minority of Eldar players that the rest of us don't like.


I stand by my earlier comments that people are just complaining about something they don't know how to beat (see above), as they are complaining mainly about unit types and weapons and not exclusively about particular lists. If this thread had led to "yeah, X type of list is really cheesy" then the merits of that list could be debated, but its not, its a lot of "cheesy eldar starcannons blah, I can't beat them". There are certain armies which are a problem and give eldar players a bad name, Seer conferences and Sniperkrieg being the greatest offenders, but not everyone plays them. Most object to being labelled cheesy because their opponent has a big chip on their shoulder about Eldar while being festooned with plasma and power fists. :wtf:

Ardathair
07-06-2006, 00:46
Posted by Kriegsherr:
"Charging" is no tactic. "Charging" is an action a unit can take.

Well that was kind of my point. Unfortunately it shows an unfavorable steryotype I have reguarding the two armies I mentioned. Will try to work on correcting that.

(Darn I hate responding to statements from pages ago.)

alphaecho
07-06-2006, 04:43
Right becouse he took some of those 6 or 7 choices in list that are worth their points :D
Apart from 18 man seer council it still nice list. And it's rather low on the scale what can be done with ulthwe.
Your Kommando Nob taking out WL is best proof those things are balanced at current 4th edition rules too.
And why with so many shots from big shootas was seer council problem? Or maybe it was you who took tons of rokkit launchas/power claws to kill marines quickly and got pissed at their inv saves ? :D


No, two rokkit launchas and 2 powerclaws (one of those on my lone mega armoured nob) in the whole army. My big shootas were used in an attempt to do something about the rear-of-the-table hogging guardians. Unfortunately the mobs with the big shootas then got mired down in the combat with the seer council. The re-rolling of the failed armour saves from the Council started to get a little bit tiring.

As I stated, never having read the Eldar codex I have no real concept of what is power gaming or min/maxing. It was just not an adventurously used list hence the game was not fun. As for killing Marines quickly, I find my Skarboys mob with the 3 Burnas tend to do that quite well(especially if they get to charge).

GuardsManJared
07-06-2006, 05:47
I dont hate Eldar, in fact i love fighting against them with my IG and usually the game is up in the air until the final turn when something miraculous happens on either side and wins me or my pal andrew the game.

In fact i dislike playing marines cause i see them way to often where im at, and tau cause they just a pain to fight with IG.

the only time i dont like the Eldar is when he drops his Phoenix Lord Baharroth on to the field usually resulting in alot of my armor save 4+ guardsmen to die......until baharroth takes a battle cannon shell to the chest....then i like them again:D

MadJackMcJack
07-06-2006, 06:23
wow, 13 odd pages until someone says the obvious
'people hate eldar because they're poncy like all other elves'

Well, that just goes without saying. But meself, I hate Eldar because of the Prism rush. One time, me (as Chaos) and a Guard ally were tangling with a Pri.....wait, wrong game!

ashc
07-06-2006, 10:30
Well, im going to say what i usually say to pretty much all these sort of posts for every army.

Its the players, not the race/army.

Every list can be tweaked for max power, its the player who chooses to do so.

Eldar suffer alot for it thanks to the minority who do this knowing full well the eldar codex is fairly shall we say easy to tweak? They then take on the fluff-based idea of eldar arrogance and superiority and basically embody it, and its these sort of people that really bring the Eldar down and really tarnish the race (and players) as a whole.

I personally dont identify well with the Eldar due to the arrogance and superiority; its just not really the way i want a race i play to be; but i leave it at that, it doesnt mean i *hate* ALL eldar players for it!

This tarring of people with the same powergamer brush for the army they play is why im dropping my iron warriors. Im sick of being told i only win games because i play iron warriors even though i play a troop-heavy no-obliterators list. So im now out to find an army that provides a tactical challenge where people will sit up and go 'ooh he can play.'

People like Wraithbored and Orbital on here are fine examples of upstanding eldar players; they have wins, and losses, but overall they have fun. I know 2 eldar players in Leeds; they play what you could call 'average' eldar lists; yet they are great guys, have their wins and losses and dont mind.

Ash

lord_blackfang
07-06-2006, 12:48
People like Wraithbored and Orbital on here are fine examples of upstanding eldar players; they have wins, and losses, but overall they have fun. I know 2 eldar players in Leeds; they play what you could call 'average' eldar lists; yet they are great guys, have their wins and losses and dont mind.


We'll be having none of those cuddy feel-good vibes in here, please. This is a hate thread :p Take it to Who Loves Eldar? (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38305)

Elanthanis
07-06-2006, 13:07
I had a Dire Avenger army at one point.

I bet my Dire Avenger army lost more than Orbital's Fire Dragon shrine. ;)

You'd actually be hard pressed to find someone more thrilled about the changes to the Children of Asuryan than myself. Thankfully though, I've switched to a more broad-based Biel Tan army (because not only were the Avengers horrible, but boring) with a solid Avenger core backed up by a single squad of almost every other aspect save Shining Spears (which I wanted, but were too expensive money-wise).

Oh yeah, and the only weapons I use on my vehicles are shuriken cannons and the occasional bright lance. I will admit I would like to model a unit of a tank sniper unit of Warwalkers, which may yet come to fruition with the new warwalker models, if I make the switch to Alaitoc (which would be mostly a stealth army with warwalkers/rangers/shadow weavers/striking scorpions/pathfinders). If not, it'll probably become more of a wave serpent/aspect warrior force with the only real anti tank portion being haywire grenades and fire dragons.

Grand Master Raziel
07-06-2006, 13:10
Depends if they're using the "stereotypical" marine army doesn't it? Marines in cover with heavy bolters have exactly the same stats to kill gunline guardians in cover (3 shots, equal range, wounds on 2's, ignores armour saves) only they have better BS and the heavy bolter costs nothing like a starcannon. 7 guardians with starcannon costs about the same as 6 marines with a heavy bolter and will kill less due to worse BS, only marines also have better Stregth, toughness, WS, leadership, ASKNF etc. the eldar in return can move and fire. Woo. So which is better and which is cheesier?

Easy. The Guardians. 2 Reasons.

1: They can move and fire their big gun.
2: The starcannon is much more universally useful than the heavy bolter.

The second reason is the more important of the two. A SM army which is heavy on the heavy bolters will do dandy against some armies but not so well against any with high armor saves. The starcannon has the same ROF as a heavy bolter, but negates all armor saves in the game. It's also got a higher Strength than the heavy bolter, making it a much more significant threat against Monstrous Creatures and most vehicles. So, an Eldar player can load up his army with starcannons and and be fairly confident that he can take all comers with it. The same thing can't be said of an Imperial army similarly loaded with heavy bolters.

Now, I concede the fact that, other than the bright lance, there really isn't anything other weapon option for Guardians worth taking. I wouldn't take the shuricannon on a weapon platform, the Eldar missile launcher is overpriced, and the scatter laser in its current incarnation is poop. However, the starcannon-heavy bolter comparison is completely spurious.


If you found marine players using gunline 6-man heavy bolter squads they would soon destroy those gunline guardians if they were in cover, they'd also kill a lot of vypers too. Point is, no-one takes heavy bolters in tac squads because they all like las/plas. Why? Because everyone plays marines. Lots of marine armies are packed to the gills with plasma and ass cannons, even more so than eldar in some cases. Your choice.

Again, completely spurious. There is no way a SM player can pack as many assault cannons into his army and not have a completely self-crippling mix of forces as an Eldar player can manage with starcannons in an Eldar army. Assault cannons are only found on a few platforms in the SM army, and those platforms are either extremely expensive, fragile, or in some cases both. More to the point, the assault cannon can't be taken by any Troops choices, nor does it appear on any transports or most tanks. By comparison, the starcannon can be taken on everything in the Eldar list.

As far as Imperial plasma vs. the starcannon goes, again that comparison is all in favor of the starcannon as well. Imperial armies have either the plasma cannon, which is a 1-shot weapon that's been nerfed by the 4th ed blast template rules, or the plasma gun, which is a 1-shot weapon with a foot less range, or a 2-shot weapon with 2 feet less range. Oh, yeah, they both have a tendency to overheat and kill their gunners, unless vehicle mounted, which is largely impossible to Imperial armies. Only the Leman Russ Demolisher can mount any kind of plasma weaponry.





Marine players can also infiltrate and rapid fire the tar out of guardians, and get first turn penetrating shots on elar skimmers. They can drop pod in and rapid fire the tar out of pretty much anything in an eldar gunline army as well as making most of it run off the table with Boo, both stereotypical marine armies that require no great tactical thinking to use effectively. First couple of times I played pods I got mullered severely. So I figured out some tactics and now I know how to beat them.

Having extensively played the infiltrating SM schtick, I can tell you with confidence that it's generally not as easy as you're making it out to be. Usually, it's extremely difficult to get Infiltrators much closer to an opponent's deployment zone than they would otherwise be able to get if they were simply deployed during the deployment phase. Plus, units that Infiltrate can't take transport vehicles, so while they MIGHT start closer, they're not going to close the remaining difference particularly quickly. So, unless you're leaving a massive hole on your flank that allows your opponent to place Infiltrators there, doing the all-infiltrating army does in fact take a lot of tactical acumen to pull off. If you are leaving a big hole in your flank that allows opponents to place infiltrators there, then that's your own damn fault.

As far as drop pod army goes, again that's fairly tricky to pull off well. Only about half the army is likely to come in on the second turn, with the rest dribbling in over subsequent turns. That leaves the podding army very
vulnerable to being annihilated piecemeal unless the person playing it is very savvy with it. As far as Fear of the Darkness goes, if that's making most of your army run off the table, then you must be clustering it really close together and really close to the back of your deployment zone. The core rules are intentionally designed to be harsh to armies that did so - the designers even said so in one of the articles of White Dwarf preceding the release of the 4th edition rules. If FotD is causing you a lot of trouble, then that's your own fault.


So in summary, you have the tools for the job, just choose not to use them or use them badly. Not my problem and doesn't make my tournament list (containing a mighty 4 starcannons and one wraithlord) cheesy. Hard yes, cheesy, no, especially compared to some other codexes out there.

You are making two unwarranted assumptions here.

1: I haven't figured out what works for me.
2: I haven't figured out how to use what's in my codex.

Making a statement freighted with such assumptions is an example of the arrogant elitism displayed by some Eldar players which reflects badly on Eldar players as a whole.



I stand by my earlier comments that people are just complaining about something they don't know how to beat (see above), as they are complaining mainly about unit types and weapons and not exclusively about particular lists. If this thread had led to "yeah, X type of list is really cheesy" then the merits of that list could be debated, but its not, its a lot of "cheesy eldar starcannons blah, I can't beat them". There are certain armies which are a problem and give eldar players a bad name, Seer conferences and Sniperkrieg being the greatest offenders, but not everyone plays them. Most object to being labelled cheesy because their opponent has a big chip on their shoulder about Eldar while being festooned with plasma and power fists. :wtf

Funny, this current thread was sparked off by an Eldar player displaying exactly the same attitude toward non-Eldar players that you are ascribing to non-Eldar players having toward Eldar. What's more, this thread has displayed very little of the attitude you are ascribing to Eldar, and one of those posters was a goit who got banned. Therefore, by standing by your earlier comments - for that matter, for even having made them in the first place - you are showing yourself not to be in the majority of Eldar players, who have been widely credited here by almost everyone who has posted as being perfectly reasonable fellows, but as the stuck-up minority that gives the rest a bad name.

Orbital
07-06-2006, 16:30
We'll be having none of those cuddy feel-good vibes in here, please. This is a hate thread :p Take it to Who Loves Eldar? (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38305)

Or my other new thread: Who Hates Lord Blackfang?

;)

Anathema
07-06-2006, 17:31
So, an Eldar player can load up his army with starcannons and and be fairly confident that he can take all comers with it. The same thing can't be said of an Imperial army similarly loaded with heavy bolters.

Nope, the only reason an eldar player can load up on starcannons and be fairly confident that he can take all comers with it is because most of those opponents are marines. If the most popular armies were orks, guard and nids, which is better? The starcannon is worse vs. horde armies than the heavy bolter, including guardian heavy eldar, why? Because the marines have BS4. If nids were most popular, that starcannon gunline would do worse than the heavy bolter gunline in shooting them down, then get absolutely eaten when the first wave of hormogaunts hit. Those same gaunts can quite easily bounce off power armour on the other hand, not to mention the marines superior leadership, ASKNF, etc. etc. for a similar price in points.
So the only reason starcannons are better weapons is due to the prevailing army type. Hence nobody takes heavy bolters and then wonders why they get outshot by guardian heavy eldar. If the eldar player doesn't go guardian heavy, they can't take as many starcannon.


Again, completely spurious. There is no way a SM player can pack as many assault cannons into his army and not have a completely self-crippling mix of forces as an Eldar player can manage with starcannons in an Eldar army.

Did I just mention ass cannons? Nope, I also included plasma. I might have included lascannons and missile launchers in there too. Why do people take las/plas? Because it kills marines. Why do people take ass cannons? Becuase they kill pretty much anything in large numbers. The Eldar player can pack many starcannons in the list through guardians at the cost of mobility and loss of combat power and through vypers through fragility. Marine players can pack plasma weapons that don't lose them combat power (marine stats), loses some mobility, but can take transports, drop pods etc (which guardians can't take) and ass cannons at the expense of some fragility (land speeders not open topped) and points cost (termies) but gaining a 2+/5++ save. Suddenly people use termies now they get rending, whereas before they complained they got killed by plasma. Wonder what happened there?


More to the point, the assault cannon can't be taken by any Troops choices, nor does it appear on any transports or most tanks. By comparison, the starcannon can be taken on everything in the Eldar list.

The assault cannon can't be taken on troops choices,but plasma, lascannon, heavy bolter, meltagun, missile launcher can, 2 weapons per squad. The starcannon can certainly not be taken on everything on the eldar list, what rubbish. Can any Aspects take it? No. One out of 4 troops choice (which are very fragile) can, vypers, war walkers (rofl) falcons, wave serpents and wraithlords.


As far as Imperial plasma vs. the starcannon goes, again that comparison is all in favor of the starcannon as well. Imperial armies have either the plasma cannon, which is a 1-shot weapon that's been nerfed by the 4th ed blast template rules, or the plasma gun, which is a 1-shot weapon with a foot less range, or a 2-shot weapon with 2 feet less range. Oh, yeah, they both have a tendency to overheat and kill their gunners, unless vehicle mounted, which is largely impossible to Imperial armies.

So marines lose range and can overheat. In return they get the option to take 2 plasma guns a squad, BS4 and an extra point of strength as well. The starcannon may have the better of the trade in general, but hey, eldar get the better heavy infantry killer, marines get the better horde killer. Hang on, isn't the assault cannon better at both, and can even kill AV14 better than a lascannon? Again, if the prevalent armies were horde, Tau would be the beard kings. As marines are, eldar get the crap.


As far as Fear of the Darkness goes, if that's making most of your army run off the table, then you must be clustering it really close together and really close to the back of your deployment zone. The core rules are intentionally designed to be harsh to armies that did so - the designers even said so in one of the articles of White Dwarf preceding the release of the 4th edition rules. If FotD is causing you a lot of trouble, then that's your own fault.

Haha, FotD doesn't bother me, I'm mostly mech anyway and use tactics to stop it making my expensive aspect running away. Against the gunline guardians so despised, it does horrible things, as do drop podding squads. But hey, does that make you an arrogant marine player fro assuming I can't deal with a unit?

Just because I disagree with the vocal majority doesn't make me arrogant or stuck-up. I happen to think Ulthwe and Alaitoc are overpowered mostly and should be toned down, but I don't think the Eldar list in general is unbeatable or unfair. There are always ways to beat it if you think hard enough and have a good balanced list. I'm not claiming any tactical genius as was the first post, which I thought was daft by the way. Its the type of people who take all las plas and predators vs. starcannons and bright lances then complain when they're beaten that annoy me most, and they seem to be everywhere these days. Including whenever you say you're taking eldar. People complain at the name. A good balanced marine army should have a good chance vs one trick pony eldar outside of seer council and alaitoc territory, and people who are getting continually beaten by starcannon spam need to think of ways to beat it rather than complain.

BrainFireBob
07-06-2006, 18:52
Allright, Anathema, you're a) Ignoring the fact that Marines cost considerably more points, so you can't just say "Guardians have this, Marines have this" without noting that marines are also paying way the heck more per model to get that.

B) You're also ignoring the fact that a balanced marine list can have serious problems against All Starcannons, All the Time. Sure, a Marine list tricked out to deal with Eldar/Orks/Maybe Nids will have comparable/superior performance against Eldar as Eldar have against Marines with the all-Starcannon list. However, said list will not stand up as well against Tau, nor will it deal very well with Marines (any variant), Necrons, or Guard (tanks). However, the Eldar starcannon army, while not optimal against hordes, still can do decently against hordes. The same is not true in reverse of the heavy bolter army, which does well against Eldar and hordes but falls on its face against any more elite army. Stop assuming everyone who dislikes Eldar starcannon lists and plays marines runs las/plas. Yes, I gather it's common, but y'know, half the players in my area play marines (at least part-time) and I've only seen it once.

Maybe I shouldn't say that. I play Marines. I do have squads with lascannon and plasma gun. 2 of them. Both 10 men strong, in an IW list with no pie plates and no oblits. Why? Seemed fluffy, actually. In addition to other Troops choices, I might add. And boy, it took forever to get enough bolters for that army with the half'n'half chaos sprue. Then again, that's also the list with the all heavy bolter infiltrating Havoc Squad, which I run just because a) It's not a bad unit, and fairly cheap (even against Marines or 'crons, that many heavy bolters will kill something), and b) I'm always hearing whining about how Marine players can take heavy bolters, and don't, and so have no right to be irritated. Well, I'm doing my part, then.

smokingmonkee
07-06-2006, 19:05
I don't hate dem weedy panzees. I just feel kinda bad for 'em cuz they get krumped easy.

TzarNikolai
07-06-2006, 21:10
...that a balanced marine list...
don't think i've ever seen one... :p

just kidding. but marines can easily be as broken (if not more when you discount ulthwe) than eldar. so its really a 2 way street.

again, i'd like to stress here that a lot of eldar players do play broken lists and i'm not trying to defend them in any way, just like to point out that most other armies have their own cheese as well, maybe not as well known as the: "ooh, look, ap2 weapons galore" eldar though.

Anathema
07-06-2006, 21:33
Allright, Anathema, you're a) Ignoring the fact that Marines cost considerably more points, so you can't just say "Guardians have this, Marines have this" without noting that marines are also paying way the heck more per model to get that.

Actually my original post was concerning 2 squads of approximately equal points, while also mentioning what marines get over the eldar. In my example with heavy bolter and starcannon, marines don't pay more they pay the same, illustrating how expensive the starcannon is. I don't see any marine player paying 50 points for a single heavy weapon in a tac squad. But thats irrelevant, marines get cheaper weaponry than eldar for their basic troops. Their troops cost more because they are better, the eldar weaponry costs more as its better. Does it balance out over the full gaming experience? Impossible to say. What remains is that starcannon guardians are very fragile and have relatively low leadership (these days with all the ld boosting stuff available), relatively expensive for what you get and only hit 1.5 times a turn. They can be made better, but at the costs of a warlock and/or farseer, which are very expensive upgrades. Sure you can take a lot, but at the cost of flexibility.


B) You're also ignoring the fact that a balanced marine list can have serious problems against All Starcannons, All the Time. Sure, a Marine list tricked out to deal with Eldar/Orks/Maybe Nids will have comparable/superior performance against Eldar as Eldar have against Marines with the all-Starcannon list. However, said list will not stand up as well against Tau, nor will it deal very well with Marines (any variant), Necrons, or Guard (tanks). However, the Eldar starcannon army, while not optimal against hordes, still can do decently against hordes

So you're saying that a balanced marine army is effectively no good against half or more of the armies out there? So you have to take low AP weaponry to have to deal with them? Are all your other weapons useless because you only face Meqs? Now why do you think the starcannon is the weapon du jour?

A starcannon gunline eldar army is not a balanced army. Its a marine killer army. Against nids with the right amount of cover, its toast. Those guardians are dinner. Shooty guard can outshoot it too, unless they load up on las and plasma (see where I'm going with this?).


Stop assuming everyone who dislikes Eldar starcannon lists and plays marines runs las/plas.

OK fine. If you run other weaponry such as heavy bolter, missile launchers etc. and use a variety of units, with enough cover you have a good enough chance to beat the pony. I don't assume everyone does las/plas, but I've seen and read quite a few posts from people on the net who've complained about eldar and then posted up a marine killer list wondering why they lost. My apologies and the same to anyone who doesn't like eldar and uses other balanced lists. My main point is that while the starcannon army will be hard to face, there are enough tools in a balanced marine list to take it on. My metagame point stands. If hordes were the majority, everyone would complain about the heavy bolter. Eldar would have to use combos like Hot-dropping Dire Avengers, Eldritch storm, dual shuricannon vypers, war walkers with scatter lasers and such. A different metagame would form where the starcannon would be seen as overpriced as it only kills 1.5 orks a turn. Its all relative to the prevailing lists, which are MEQs in this universe, so starcannons get the stick.


Maybe I shouldn't say that. I play Marines. I do have squads with lascannon and plasma gun. 2 of them. Both 10 men strong, in an IW list with no pie plates and no oblits. Why? Seemed fluffy, actually. In addition to other Troops choices, I might add. And boy, it took forever to get enough bolters for that army with the half'n'half chaos sprue. Then again, that's also the list with the all heavy bolter infiltrating Havoc Squad, which I run just because a) It's not a bad unit, and fairly cheap (even against Marines or 'crons, that many heavy bolters will kill something), and b) I'm always hearing whining about how Marine players can take heavy bolters, and don't, and so have no right to be irritated. Well, I'm doing my part, then.

And I salute you. 4 heavy bolter havocs are a very good unit. A pain to shift and pump out a fearsome rate or infantry/light vehicle killing firepower, especially if they infiltrate. As an Iron Warrior player I'm sure you get accused of cheese before people even see the list. One of the nicest compliments I had was after a cracking game at the GT heat last year. I narrowly beat a guy and his mates came over as we were packing up. On finding out I played Eldar they immedialtely asked if it was Reaper doom, Seer council or starcannon heavy. On reading my list he said it was a fair balanced army and congratulated me on the win. People need to see that eldar can be beaten, even when "cheesed out". A good eldar player is a thing to be feared, but so is a good player of any army.

Anathema
07-06-2006, 21:35
again, i'd like to stress here that a lot of eldar players do play broken lists and i'm not trying to defend them in any way, just like to point out that most other armies have their own cheese as well, maybe not as well known as the: "ooh, look, ap2 weapons galore" eldar though.

Agreed and on reflection it probably looks like I'm defending lists like this. I'm not, I'm trying to point out that they can be beaten and that they do pay a price for all that AP2. I would never play a list like that anyway, so I can sleep at night:angel:

Marshal Lazarus
08-06-2006, 00:11
Let's not get too far-sighted, here. There's alot of reasons to hate all armies. Personally, I'm surprised this thread hasn't erupted into a flame war. Props to you all.

Who do people hate Eldar? The same reasons that every other army out there is hated..."cheese potential":

Standard Eldar: Starcannons, wraithlords, and Seer Councils
Ulthwe: Portal strikes, black guardians
Altioc: Ranger Disruption
Saim Hann: CTM Vipers of doom with starcannons and bright lances
Swordwind: Aspect Troops
Ghost Warriors: Wraithlords and T5 wraithguard in serpents
Astartes Space Marines: Las/plas squads, land raider ramps, assault cannons
Blood Angels: Death Company, overcharged engines, the thirst.
Dark Angels: Deathwing assault cannons, stubborn, Ravenwing Tornados
Black Templar: Vows, Land raider crusaders, righteous zeal
and on
and on
etc.
etc.
...

You get the point. Every army is a potential "cheese wheel". I'm just wondering why knowing this, so many people appear to be lactose intollerant?

Don't like to make "cheesey" lists or play against them? Guess what? They're always going to be there and will always be testing your skills as a tactician as well as your patience. I, myself don't believe in "cheese" but I know what it is.

Go ahead. Do your worst. More power to me if I can overcome it. If I can't, then I hope I learned something.

Grand Master Raziel
08-06-2006, 00:19
Agreed and on reflection it probably looks like I'm defending lists like this. I'm not, I'm trying to point out that they can be beaten and that they do pay a price for all that AP2. I would never play a list like that anyway, so I can sleep at night:angel:

It does, in fact, and it also looks as if you are accusing all Marine players of being idiots throughout all your posts, which is what I was objecting to in the first place. Perhaps if you moderated your tone and tried to see the issue from other people's perspectives, you won't get as many people responding negatively to your posts.

Anathema
08-06-2006, 06:49
I'm not implying that marine players are idiots, that was never my intention. My point that a lot of people complain about eldar without thinking about how to beat them is still a valid one however IMO. This happens with most things considered "cheesy". I'm NOT advocating taking a starcannon heavy list, a Seer Council army of doom or sniperfest. Personally I find them boring. Although they can be beaten. I played a tournament level Alaitoc list and lost, but I learnt a lot from talking to the player and analysing my game and tactics. Next time I play them, I'll have a better idea. Same with Iron Warriors. The reason I know exactly what to do against generic stand and shoot marines is through facing them so many times, as many xenos players will also. If cheesy Eldar are that prevalent, then experience should teach people what to do. If, outside of tournaments, they're not (as is my experience), then you're just facing normal eldar lists so whats the problem?

Kriegsherr
08-06-2006, 10:23
Allright, Anathema, you're a) Ignoring the fact that Marines cost considerably more points, so you can't just say "Guardians have this, Marines have this" without noting that marines are also paying way the heck more per model to get that.

B) You're also ignoring the fact that a balanced marine list can have serious problems against All Starcannons, All the Time. Sure, a Marine list tricked out to deal with Eldar/Orks/Maybe Nids will have comparable/superior performance against Eldar as Eldar have against Marines with the all-Starcannon list. However, said list will not stand up as well against Tau, nor will it deal very well with Marines (any variant), Necrons, or Guard (tanks). However, the Eldar starcannon army, while not optimal against hordes, still can do decently against hordes. The same is not true in reverse of the heavy bolter army, which does well against Eldar and hordes but falls on its face against any more elite army. Stop assuming everyone who dislikes Eldar starcannon lists and plays marines runs las/plas. Yes, I gather it's common, but y'know, half the players in my area play marines (at least part-time) and I've only seen it once.

Maybe I shouldn't say that. I play Marines. I do have squads with lascannon and plasma gun. 2 of them. Both 10 men strong, in an IW list with no pie plates and no oblits. Why? Seemed fluffy, actually. In addition to other Troops choices, I might add. And boy, it took forever to get enough bolters for that army with the half'n'half chaos sprue. Then again, that's also the list with the all heavy bolter infiltrating Havoc Squad, which I run just because a) It's not a bad unit, and fairly cheap (even against Marines or 'crons, that many heavy bolters will kill something), and b) I'm always hearing whining about how Marine players can take heavy bolters, and don't, and so have no right to be irritated. Well, I'm doing my part, then.

A well, couldn't resist.

A) Marines pay to less "more". And additionally their heavy weapons cost nothing in tac squads whereas the eldar HW in defender squads are real espensive. True they can move an shoot, but in infantry squads its a small gain for a big price.

B) A balanced Eldar army also has serious problems against the ascannon-list from hell. All balanced lists have problem against a list tailored against this special army. Lifes hard, and WH40k isn't just about WAAC. If noone would take overly unbalanced armies, it wouldn't be any problem.

Like this I have to admit... I'd like to see the SC restricted in a small way. But the asscannons rending has to go. the sooner the better.

I don't hate marines, and I'm ok with their cheapness. But the rending rules are just ridicoulos, turning a tactical anti-horde weapon into a anti-everything no brainer.

In every codex there are the weak spots and the cheese. Its up to the player to restrict the cheese and find ways to put the weaker units to good use.

Brother_Falco
08-06-2006, 16:03
The problem seems to be for most non-eldar players that the pointies don't seem to regard their cheese *as* cheese, instead smugly chalking it up to their (imagined) place as the 'best' tactical race in 40k.
Whether that is true or not is really irrelevant, it's the attitude that annoys people.
Now I play Marines, and Eldar are my bugbear (gaming) race not because they're cheesy and not because they're inherently tactically superior to the Astartes, but because I run a list tailored for killing chaos and 'crons at close range, which the Eldar, oddly enough, don't want fight at.
Fair enough. That's not cheesy.
What is cheesy are the Eldar comments on a Marine army list that contains *any* assault cannons.
There's a difference in perception in the (majority) of their heads which seems to say "oh it's ok for us to take dubious all comers weapons because we're TACTICALLY SUPERIOR!!shift1!" and then whine ferociously about the presence of a 20 point strapped to a 40 point one wound model who's got only a few meatshields between him and death.
Eldar players who do *not* react like this are I'm sad to say, the exception not the rule on the internet. Pleasantly different irl, but here, mostly they engender rather fierce dislike with cheese and whining. That's why people hate them.
Psychic Hood thread I'm looking at you for instance.
Yes, my brutally expensive libby needs nerfing again because he has a 40% chance of neutralising the psychic powers a much cheaper model is sprinkling around his army like confetti.
Wait a minute...

Disclaimer : I'm not saying all Eldar players are whining cheese mongers and I'm not saying Marines are pure and noble creatures who only run 10 strong termie squads with cyclones. What I am saying is clear enough.

An other note : I don't actually hate them as a race either, I'm toying with starting an Eldar army full of swooping hawks because they look cool >.>. My personal irrational hatred is reserved for the DAMNED BLUIES, OH I HATE ..er. ahem.

Kriegsherr
08-06-2006, 17:02
The problem seems to be for most non-eldar players that the pointies don't seem to regard their cheese *as* cheese, instead smugly chalking it up to their (imagined) place as the 'best' tactical race in 40k.


That always struck me as something funny.

The one thing marine players call cheese in an eldar players army are Starcannons.
The thing Eldar players (and most other races player to) annoy most about marine cheese is the almighty asscannon.

Now I think players of every race tend to call the cheddar of other armies cheese while their own is just smelly food.
Its time to see the own armylist in the right angle before you can call other armies choices cheese. and better don't call them that till you encounter an opponent who has stacked the cheese so badly you just can't stand it no more.

There are some weapons I for my part think to be overpowered:

- Star Cannon. Sure its expensive. But the only thing it can't hurt are Tanks. I'm okay with the antimarine part, if it would be super antihorde and super antilightveh at the same time.

- Assault Cannon. Needless to say more than: Rending. No-Brainer. Meh.

- Zzap Gun. Okay, its the only real good ork gun against Tanks. Its maybe just a little bit to good... as it does a meltaguns work at 24".

-Demonic Stature. Not a weapon per see, but the worst thing about the Chaos codex in my eyes. Why pay for a normal P-Weapon if you can have stature for the same price (Even if you're one of the rusher-front, you can get pretty fast with the speed)

- Inferno Cannon. It might be only anti horde, but its pretty good at it. And ignores cover, an ork players only friend on the tabletop.
Thank Gork and Mork there can't be more than three in an IG army.

Its time we all settle down, let the opponent take his odd pieces of cheddar while enjoying our own.

If someone cries "asscannon!" as soon as he sees a Termi squad with two, he should get his big ranty mouth shut. But when I see the amounts of asscannons some players take instead of other weapons just because "their better!" I would start to rant too. same with SCs, or any other overtailored or -powered army.

You don't have to be a tactical genious to make a list of optimal choices. Even a PC Program could do this with the right numbercrunching routines.
The tactics start on the tabletop.

glowing in the dark
08-06-2006, 17:35
Blood Angels: Death Company, overcharged engines, the thirst.
Dark Angels: Deathwing assault cannons, stubborn, Ravenwing Tornados
Black Templar: Vows, Land raider crusaders, righteous zeal


I don't belive any of them are cheesy 'cause of the above written.
Deathwing asscanns don't do anything standard asscanns does.Stubborn,nah.
Blood angels are massacred in 4th ed and the thirs is a more of disadvantage than advantage.
BT:Everyone now can have LRC-s.Wows cost,alot!

On topic:I hate eldar 'cause two things:Zillion starcannons and disruption table.
Plus their fluff:Oooh we're so pathetic,we're dyin', noone loves us.
For Emperors sake you've created Slaanesh,who would love you(beside Emperors children and other assorted chaos scum)

Marshal Lazarus
08-06-2006, 18:25
<snip>
Deathwing asscanns don't do anything standard asscanns does.Stubborn,nah.
Blood angels are massacred in 4th ed and the thirs is a more of disadvantage than advantage.
BT:Everyone now can have LRC-s.Wows cost,alot!<snip>

DW - you can field 2 Assault Cannons in every Termie squad, same as everyone else...but when your termies count as troops that leaves HQ, Elite and Heavy slots open for even more assault cannons. So lets review:

HQ Squad - 2
6 min sized troops - 2x6=12
3 dreads - 3
1 Land Raider Crusader - 1 (twin-linked)
TOTAL = 18 Assault Cannons. That's how. Even if you're only talking 1850 to 2000 points you can still fit at least 12 to 14 of them. :cheese:

Blood Angels are far from killed in 4th edition. As matter of fact, they got a boost in some areas from the new rules along with their update.

Unless you're BT, you cannot take a LRC as a transport option for your troops without taking a Heavy slot. ;)

I never said it was cheap. Nor did I say that these were concrete reasons. I illustrated things that people complain about when facing said opponents. :)

BrainFireBob
09-06-2006, 19:39
*sigh* Look, the Eldar list right now is bipolar, much like *gasp* Orks, specifically Feral Orks.

You either run an overpowered list, or show up and tell your opponent "Congrads, you won!" It's not QUITE that bad, but it gets close.

Yes, that does tend to make playing them unpleasant. And it does contribute to hating playing them.

And yes, plenty of Eldar players think they're awesome for "making their list work." I include Dark Eldar here- I knew a guy who run the Dark Lances, Dark Lances, interrupt the tedium with more Dark Lances, then a wych cult/Archon-Incubi one-two assault punch, and refused to play anyone but Marine players. He had an almost perfect record- boasted of it. Very smug and superior, and telling his opponents how they were playing so wrong as he swept.

Oh, and he only ever deployed terrain deep in his deployment zone (most groups here use alternating placement).

I gather for many people, that's the current face of Eldar players, fairly or not.

Tanith Ghost
09-06-2006, 19:57
I never minded these so called 'cheese' lists. Cheese, is, and always will be, the excuse of the weak. 'I only lost because he took a cheese list.'

Beleive it or not, there are DICE involved somwhere in the equation. Dice that don't always just give you 5.0 hits and 2.5 wounds. The dice can easily spit in your face with a bellow average roll, or further your cause with high rolls.

But 10 starcannons is not the end of the world. Two words, folks- Shoot back. No whinig, no excuses, just shoot back and see who lasts longer.

And since it's been mentioned, the assault cannon rending is even less the end of the world. it can rend. Get over. That means it kills on a 6. Not very often at all.

TWB
09-06-2006, 20:07
Why people hate eldar?

All that moaning about wave serpents ;)

Tanith Ghost
09-06-2006, 20:09
I will admit my heavy weapon platoon was a bit vexed when nine rocket launchers failed to dent one wave serpent.:p

MadJackMcJack
09-06-2006, 20:33
But 10 starcannons is not the end of the world. Two words, folks- Shoot back. No whinig, no excuses, just shoot back and see who lasts longer.



As has been said, a starcannon-heavy list decolces the game to "Who gets first turn". I've played a Saim-Haan list a few times with my Tau (the guy retired the list after finding it horribly boring, and only brings out all the vypers for mega-battles), and each and every time, whoever got the first turn won. When he did, my squads got mauled in the first turn, and had difficulty taking down the vypers. When I went first, his stuff died horribly, and he had little left to effectively destroy me. Booooooring

buried_alive
09-06-2006, 20:41
A balanced Eldar army also has serious problems against....

has anybody ever played against the mythical ''balanced'' eldar list?

Tanith Ghost
09-06-2006, 20:59
As has been said, a starcannon-heavy list decolces the game to "Who gets first turn". I've played a Saim-Haan list a few times with my Tau (the guy retired the list after finding it horribly boring, and only brings out all the vypers for mega-battles), and each and every time, whoever got the first turn won. When he did, my squads got mauled in the first turn, and had difficulty taking down the vypers. When I went first, his stuff died horribly, and he had little left to effectively destroy me. Booooooring


Funny, my IG have little trouble surviving the initial onslaught, and returning the favor threefold.:eyebrows:

The same for the marines, though it's more of a fight for them to regain the upper hand. The same holds true though- stick to your guns, never let up,
and victory is never out of reach.

insanenecronpope5
19-06-2006, 06:20
In order to... "And you wonder why people hate Eldar? by t-tauri" in the post http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37254&page=49.

Well my theory is simple, all fear the eldar. Thats simple, eldar is a collective of players whith a high TACTICAL vision, we have the biggest troops options, we have the power of the more destructive and CREATIVE tactics. We are the more serious?...well we have powergames and kids...of course.

Using eldar is not an easy task...but it has the recompense...if yo do it well.

Note: i'm not saying the other playes are idiot, only other armys, like marines necrons...etc are no t complex enought to call the attention of this kind of player, he/she selects eldar.

Its all about fear. "those ******* eldar" one second later of being masacred by a quirurgical atack.

EDIT: Every time i read, "make ww twinlinked" or "autarch is X reason not uber-exarc" or "shuricannon not get rending by X reason" ETC ETC ETC ETC......I can smell this fear, not all conscient, but fear.

look like it or not eldar are on their way out and 4 out of 5 times from what i have seen in battles against eldar they have been totally massacered due to the fact that they are a weak and frail race, advanced yes, but frail and weak at the same time. noone truely fears eldar. they just dislike playing a race that seems to have an answer for everything (not a bad thing at all). it gets a little bit dull after a while, but it is not dull for me any more because i am feilding a necron army that will steal many a eldar life and soul happy gameing

Orbital
19-06-2006, 06:34
look like it or not eldar are on their way out and 4 out of 5 times from what i have seen in battles against eldar they have been totally massacered due to the fact that they are a weak and frail race, advanced yes, but frail and weak at the same time. noone truely fears eldar. they just dislike playing a race that seems to have an answer for everything (not a bad thing at all). it gets a little bit dull after a while, but it is not dull for me any more because i am feilding a necron army that will steal many a eldar life and soul happy gameing

See, this is why starting a thread about why people hate something is a bad idea. It's a breeding ground for arguments. Like take this guy for instance... "No one fears Eldar", "Weak and frail race", "a little bit dull", "[they're] on the way out". If it were any other thread, this would be a clear case of troll-bait but, because this is a thread about hate, it's right on topic. If this thread does what it's meant to, then you get one guy after another talking about hatred... and you just know some Eldar guy is going to have to start replying to that. Instant flamewar. Just add water and stir.

There are enough bad vibes in the friendly threads. Do we have to drum them up intentionally?

noneedforaname
19-06-2006, 06:47
I think the main problem stemmed from a poorly thought out codex, it didn't make it rewarding enough to try out all the different options. It seemed they simply decided ok this is what we see at tournaments these squads must be good we will make them good in the new codex. This removed a lot of choice from the eldar list and made a lot of it no brainer.

However if what i have read rumour wise is true for the new codex it seems the new eldar codex will make you want to try everything out. Everything should have been made worthwhile taking. I think this was probably there intention. Powerful, lots of combinations and a bit more back to the fluff.

Mmmm fluffy warm.

Kriegsherr
19-06-2006, 09:28
There are enough bad vibes in the friendly threads. Do we have to drum them up intentionally?

My thoughts exactly.... what should this thread be good for? Why now, where the new eldar dex and the possible solution of all problems eldar related, wether problems of eldar players or their opponents, is near?

Just settle down a moment and ask yourself where this hate is coming from. Do you really hate eldar? Or do you just utterly hate that annoying player in your shop that plays eldar?

Its true annoying players stick to annoying tactics. But other armies also allow this, and noone is done any good by letting his army eat the hatred for him.

noneedforaname
19-06-2006, 18:31
what amuses me is the fact with changes to the codices that have been made so far if you stick to the "old annoyin" tactics you don't actually get the best out of the list the tau codex being the best example. If they can't adapt then they will simply be surpassed by those can can.

boogle
19-06-2006, 18:38
I must admit, it's fear for me, as i've only beaten Eldar once since i started playing

Corn Berserker
19-06-2006, 19:18
It goes beyond fear but I can't deny that either. I dislike Elves in just about all fantasy, the transition to sci-fi doesn't diguise the ponce.

insanenecronpope5
19-06-2006, 21:21
See, this is why starting a thread about why people hate something is a bad idea. It's a breeding ground for arguments. Like take this guy for instance... "No one fears Eldar", "Weak and frail race", "a little bit dull", "[they're] on the way out". If it were any other thread, this would be a clear case of troll-bait but, because this is a thread about hate, it's right on topic. If this thread does what it's meant to, then you get one guy after another talking about hatred... and you just know some Eldar guy is going to have to start replying to that. Instant flamewar. Just add water and stir.

There are enough bad vibes in the friendly threads. Do we have to drum them up intentionally?
well if we are to look at the fluff for a minute arent eldar kind of on their way out(not even extinction maybe just leaveing the universe to settle some place less hostile towards them)? the eldar are a trait-wise weak and fragile people, and how many imperial, chaos, ork or nid worlds would be panicing for dear life for an eldar invasion? i do not like to start needless and most of all un-wanted arguements personally i cannot stand people who start them but is my case for what i have said about eldar not air tight? if i am wrong correct me but these are the facts as i have seen. even in the game almost all eldar armys i have seen in play have suffered a horrible defeat.

Orbital
19-06-2006, 21:31
well if we are to look at the fluff for a minute arent eldar kind of on their way out(not even extinction maybe just leaveing the universe to settle some place less hostile towards them)? the eldar are a trait-wise weak and fragile people, and how many imperial, chaos, ork or nid worlds would be panicing for dear life for an eldar invasion? i do not like to start needless and most of all un-wanted arguements personally i cannot stand people who start them but is my case for what i have said about eldar not air tight? if i am wrong correct me but these are the facts as i have seen. even in the game almost all eldar armys i have seen in play have suffered a horrible defeat.

Yeah, I know the fluff. As for the Eldar being weak... maybe you should read it yourself. What Lieutenant Pharaik has to say about Rangers, or Imperial Colonel Brin has to say about Eldar decadence, or Ieldan Soecr's time among the Eldar... it's all there.

My point wasn't about whether Eldar are weak or not. It's that this thread is about stirring up hateful feelings. Where, exactly, do we all think that's headed? How many times do you think you can talk about how much you hate someone else's army before bad feelings start becoming part of the discussion?

insanenecronpope5
19-06-2006, 21:59
Yeah, I know the fluff. As for the Eldar being weak... maybe you should read it yourself. What Lieutenant Pharaik has to say about Rangers, or Imperial Colonel Brin has to say about Eldar decadence, or Ieldan Soecr's time among the Eldar... it's all there.

My point wasn't about whether Eldar are weak or not. It's that this thread is about stirring up hateful feelings. Where, exactly, do we all think that's headed? How many times do you think you can talk about how much you hate someone else's army before bad feelings start becoming part of the discussion?

yes you are exactly right. the reasons stated by me earlier are the reasons i dislike eldar and their players, but as for the fluff part i was only talking about eldar departing from the universe not anything else i said. all of those things that i said are the things that made me come to dislike them. i personally do not judge armys as i have been beaten by eldar before (one of them few times eldar have actually won around me). every army player etc. is different. noone can be sure as how the outcome will be. above all i just dont like eldar and i am not afraid to admit it, just how players hate on necrons so if i am going to be looked upon as someone who posts flame bait what about the ones who talk about necrons or is that ok to diss them without any reprisal? i have not seen anyone who has said a bad word about necrons been singled out as flame bait(even when the post is not about "who hates necrons". i am not trying to be sarcastic or mean to anyone in anyway its just as soon as i spoke my mind the words that came to peoples minds was flame bait. even if they didnt say them i know thats what they were thinking.as for the bad feelings part mentioned earlier "if its the truth its the truth so deal with it with out crying about it" would be my response.

Kriegsherr
19-06-2006, 22:03
It goes beyond fear but I can't deny that either. I dislike Elves in just about all fantasy, the transition to sci-fi doesn't diguise the ponce.

Is it maybe the old male fear of homosexual style / lifestyle? :)

Maybe they should rewrite the fluff, let the eldar drink beer and enjoying football. ;)

Yes they are weedy, as the orks would say. But they look d*mn good while beeing weedy.

insanenecronpope5
19-06-2006, 22:07
Is it maybe the old male fear of homosexual style / lifestyle? :)

Maybe they should rewrite the fluff, let the eldar drink beer and enjoying football. ;)

Yes they are weedy, as the orks would say. But they look d*mn good while beeing weedy.
amen to that eldar do lack a little manlyness(not to say none is there). it would be a good move for GW to add in some more man-like perspectives for eldar.

senban
19-06-2006, 22:16
amen to that eldar do lack a little manlyness(not to say none is there). it would be a good move for GW to add in some more man-like perspectives for eldar.

I dunno, those banshees are some pretty damn macho beyatch's.

Cebo
23-06-2006, 04:37
yea nothing says manly like long hair and big... (big areas over thier hearts ;-) Sorry, gotta keep it friendly for the kids.

noneedforaname
23-06-2006, 07:29
eldar don't just swing both ways they swing everyway.

Grand Master Raziel
23-06-2006, 14:02
yea nothing says manly like long hair and big... (big areas over thier hearts ;-) Sorry, gotta keep it friendly for the kids.

Huge tracts of land, Cebo. Just say, "huge tracts of land".

Tanith Ghost
26-06-2006, 04:29
It goes beyond fear but I can't deny that either. I dislike Elves in just about all fantasy, the transition to sci-fi doesn't diguise the ponce.


Amen to that. I'd like the Eldar much better if the men were men.
Muscle, grit, and combat knive for starters. Have the barehead gardians sporting a 5 o' clock shadow. A bandana over a head wound. Some bionics,
or even a bayonet stuck on a shruiken captapult.

Just some bits here and there that declare the wearer a competent fighter at least, and hard-ass veteran in the case of the aspect warriors like dire avengers or scorpions. A scorpion should be catachan beefy, and look like he could singled-handedly kick up a pub fight even without his armor.

Orbital
26-06-2006, 05:07
Amen to that. I'd like the Eldar much better if the men were men.

Please tell me that you are not so insecure in your sexuality that even the gender roles of little plastic space men have to be a certain way for you to like them.

starlight
26-06-2006, 05:55
<waves>

Doesn't hate Eldar.

Doesn't have issues with sexuality either.:p

Ardathair
26-06-2006, 06:22
Posted by Tanith Ghost:
Some bionics, or even a bayonet stuck on a shruiken captapult.

Need to get a digital camera so I can provide pics.
Have two squads which came with chainsaw bayonets attached, and a few models with bionics, these are not conversions. Then again they have been OOP for over fifteen years.:p

Tanith Ghost
26-06-2006, 23:41
Please tell me that you are not so insecure in your sexuality that even the gender roles of little plastic space men have to be a certain way for you to like them.


It's more the fact the eldar have always been way too 'clean and soapy' types for my liking(I liked the 2nd ed 'blood and guts' marines better than the clean cut warrior monks, but that's beside the point.

If you read the rest of the post, you'd know what I meant.
Try posting on topic instead of bating.:eyebrows:

Grubnar
27-06-2006, 01:49
I'd also like to quickly look back at both the original post and that made by Kahadras - As pointed out, it is arrogance that ultimately makes people hate Eldar players. It is the belief that they are somehow superior, using better tactics and more powerful armies no matter how wrong or unresearched such a view is. Post numero uno is a prime example of this attitude.

What he said!

MrLiy
27-06-2006, 03:27
Actually in WH40k v-134 (yes, version negative 134) Necrons were so awesome they owned everyone. They were like the Marines now, everyone played Necrons. There were a few (Kr)Ork, Eldar and Old Ones players, but they mostly lost. Then GW released the Enslaver race and everyone got so mad that they stopped playing, it really wasn't fair. So GW stopped selling 40k for a while, and when they re-released it they removed the Necrons, removed the Enslavers, removed the Old Ones (they really sucked, trust me, it's for the better) and added something called "Space Marines." That's the game we have now.
I just have to save this!!!

insanenecronpope5
02-07-2006, 03:20
Amen to that. I'd like the Eldar much better if the men were men.
Muscle, grit, and combat knive for starters. Have the barehead gardians sporting a 5 o' clock shadow. A bandana over a head wound. Some bionics,
or even a bayonet stuck on a shruiken captapult.

Just some bits here and there that declare the wearer a competent fighter at least, and hard-ass veteran in the case of the aspect warriors like dire avengers or scorpions. A scorpion should be catachan beefy, and look like he could singled-handedly kick up a pub fight even without his armor.

5 o'clock shadow? bandana? eh? i would like to see eldar just look more fierce and less "i am a banshee with a blade and i can spin around a couple times and kill things". For example Sisters Of Battle is a female army (mostly female anyways) and they look great war torn armour awsome looking features etc. if eldar could take a lesson on looking better it would most likely be from SoB the thing eldar are lacking in the most is just being SCARRY looking.if eldar had some more actually aw inspireing or rugged intimadateing units i would give them my approval but until then the wrecths (eldar armies not eldar players) will crumble under the unrelenting force of gauss packing necrons and the almighty C'tan **note** theses are my opinions i am not trying to hurt anyones feelings. i mean if you see a eldar unit tank etc. that you think looks awsome thats good for you. personally no unit tank etc. of the eldar race appeals to me at all not even the annoying but useful avatar

Kriegsherr
02-07-2006, 11:09
What eldar need are more slaaneshi features. They look to manly now :p

I don't know. Manly eldar wouldn't be eldar anymore. But a little more battlefield damage on armour and man would make a lot of armies look better.
Then again, the players could learn from ork players who already try to give their equipment a battlefield wear. Even if the eldar wash their tanks everyday, One hour in a dusty warzone, one or two hits from krak missiles and bolters and some IG Soldier.... ehm.... dealt with while tankshocking and the tank is in dire need of some cleaning again.

noneedforaname
02-07-2006, 12:13
eldar are always refered to as tall and unnaturaly slender, think tau air caste.

Orbital
02-07-2006, 14:42
if eldar had some more actually aw inspireing or rugged intimadateing units i would give them my approval

FINALLY someone has told us how to get insanenecronpope5's approval!!

Pardon me... I'm gonna run off to paint stubble and NASCAR logos on my Banshees...

insanenecronpope5
02-07-2006, 18:08
FINALLY someone has told us how to get insanenecronpope5's approval!!

Pardon me... I'm gonna run off to paint stubble and NASCAR logos on my Banshees...

HAHAHA, nascar logos??? i think that might make them look a little more redneck. if you want to go with that approach add some naked chick mud flaps to the back of your prizims and gravs along with some "Fish Fear Me" and "No Pants No Shirts No Problem" bumper stickers and you will have your toby keith loveing,larry the cable guy watching just plain out redneck themed eldar army.as for the guardians, add some stbble and nascar logos as you said before.maybe if you are feeling up to it add some little plastic john deer baseball caps and convert their weapons to 12 gauges now tell me that would'nt make a person laugh.

p.s. dont forget to include many american flags on plastic sticks hanging out what eldar consider windows

i have actually done something like this before it was called hive fleet cabrini it had its jive tyrant complete with purple and black leopard skin paint job and a gigantic afro its too bad i dont have any of the pictures on this computer otherwise ou guys would be in for a good laugh

Orbital
02-07-2006, 19:25
HAHAHA, nascar logos??? i think that might make them look a little more redneck. if you want to go with that approach add some naked chick mud flaps to the back of your prizims and gravs along with some "Fish Fear Me" and "No Pants No Shirts No Problem" bumper stickers and you will have your toby keith loveing,larry the cable guy watching just plain out redneck themed eldar army.as for the guardians, add some stbble and nascar logos as you said before.maybe if you are feeling up to it add some little plastic john deer baseball caps and convert their weapons to 12 gauges now tell me that would'nt make a person laugh.

p.s. dont forget to include many american flags on plastic sticks hanging out what eldar consider windows

i have actually done something like this before it was called hive fleet cabrini it had its jive tyrant complete with purple and black leopard skin paint job and a gigantic afro its too bad i dont have any of the pictures on this computer otherwise ou guys would be in for a good laugh

That's probably the funniest thing I've ever read from you, INP5. :)

insanenecronpope5
02-07-2006, 19:31
That's probably the funniest thing I've ever read from you, INP5. :)

I knew you would laugh at that REDNECK ELDAR maybe just maybe i see irish SMurfs next......"(irish accent):p Shaw, shaw shaw pull back to the forward command boyos:p ".Eh.....idk about that one...