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Feefait
24-09-2013, 02:36
Just to be clear I don't think fantasy is dead, or necessarily on life support. However, it is troubling the state it is in. I just watched a Youtube video (forget what it was called) and some guy who appeared to be in the business was talking about GW's current policies and prices. Well anyway, he had kind of a throw away line where he said what he had heard was fantasy was dying and other games were taking over, but 40k was a long term investment for the player and GW.

Now, I have not played a game of fantasy in months. Despite 'my' lizardmen just getting a major release I do not have the book, or any new models. Looking back to my skaven I have only bought maybe 5-6 of the new items - and no big stuff. No cannons, catapults, monsters etc. My group, other than our ogre player, is kind of in the same way. We just don't play it. Checking the lgs it's all 40k games running. Even getting new fantasy stuff hardly makes it to the shelf. Of course, if no one buys it, then why order/stock it?

So basically what I am asking is this... is this the end of fantasy as we know it? Will the core players we have keep on with what we have and boycotting pricing and new armies? Honestly most of my skaven are from circa 1993, maybe up to 1997 at the latest. Anything else has been spot buys or after market. I would be sad to see the game I have played for 20+ years go away, but I wouldn't be naive enough to think it could never happen.

Sotek
24-09-2013, 02:45
I think its a combo of high cost, flawed rules and imbalanced codexes that are major factors.

Ramius4
24-09-2013, 03:14
Do a search through warhammer general. This isn't the first time someone has posted a thread like yours. The 'fantasy is dying' claim is just not true. It's a profitable game for GW.

IcedCrow
24-09-2013, 03:46
Oh good. Another fantasy is dying thread.

We haven't had one in a couple weeks.

:)

I remember my first fantasy is dying thread. It was the summer of 99. Lovely summer that was. I was assured fantasy was dying then too. Why you ask? Well... high prices, imbalanced army lists... and crappy rules!

Fourteen years later, its like groundhog day. Lovely summer that '99 was...

Voss
24-09-2013, 03:54
Oh good. Another fantasy is dying thread.

We haven't had one in a couple weeks.

:)

I remember my first fantasy is dying thread. It was the summer of 99. Lovely summer that was. I was assured fantasy was dying then too. Why you ask? Well... high prices, imbalanced army lists... and crappy rules!

Fourteen years later, its like groundhog day. Lovely summer that '99 was...


99? Wow, that is getting into the 'dying' rants late. I'm pretty sure the first time I heard that was back in '94. Those darn computer things were ruining wargames and RPGs, and everything was ruined forever. And lets not forget how that new fangled 'dumbed down' nonsense in 5th edition 2 years later utterly ruined the perfect beauty of the timeless 4th edition rules that everyone was required to love.

Shadeseraph
24-09-2013, 04:08
inb4comparisonbetweenWHFBandWH40K.

Yes, fantasy is dying. As everything else in the universe. Entropy, and all that.

Bingo the Fun Monkey
24-09-2013, 04:39
When GW axes Fantasy, all your models will melt and Morgan Freeman will show up to explain how that's even possible.

m1acca1551
24-09-2013, 04:47
Not it's not dying, the issue is that it's market share is now being encroached on by more than computer games as it was back in the 90's.

In recent years, fantasy players have had a swathe of options or alternatives from other companies like mantic, avatars, etc etc. they have also had to contend with Game of Thrones which offers older more mature gamers a very grim dark setting that is fantasy yet not. WFB often tends to have an older age group of gamers, who's play time can be much less, and so can the budget for new miniatures due to real life occurrences.

So WFB is not dying, it has simply facing some strict opposition from other areas encroaching on the fantasy genre, I can honestly say that I'd much prefer to read a game of thrones book over anything from BL, and would prefer to buy my miniatures from mantic or perry due to cost.

The only time in which I could see WFB be in serious trouble would be if game of thrones came to table top gaming *drools*

Kakapo42
24-09-2013, 04:53
From what I've seen in the other 'THE END OF WARHAMMER FANTASY IS NIGH!!' threads it also seems to be a regional thing. Fantasy seems to be much less popular in the United States than it is in Europe (which by all accounts has a thriving Fantasy community), for example.

Mike3791
24-09-2013, 04:59
99? Wow, that is getting into the 'dying' rants late. I'm pretty sure the first time I heard that was back in '94. Those darn computer things were ruining wargames and RPGs, and everything was ruined forever.

The irony is that computer games are at the weakest they've ever been, and a lot of computer game companies are either on decline or in full free fall.

Myster2
24-09-2013, 05:05
Not it's not dying, the issue is that it's market share is now being encroached on by more than computer games as it was back in the 90's.

In recent years, fantasy players have had a swathe of options or alternatives from other companies like mantic, avatars, etc etc. they have also had to contend with Game of Thrones which offers older more mature gamers a very grim dark setting that is fantasy yet not. WFB often tends to have an older age group of gamers, who's play time can be much less, and so can the budget for new miniatures due to real life occurrences.

So WFB is not dying, it has simply facing some strict opposition from other areas encroaching on the fantasy genre, I can honestly say that I'd much prefer to read a game of thrones book over anything from BL, and would prefer to buy my miniatures from mantic or perry due to cost.

The only time in which I could see WFB be in serious trouble would be if game of thrones came to table top gaming *drools*



Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2

What a splendid idea to have game of thrones on the table top. You could have the humans fight other humans that are secretly at war with themselves.

Then anyone that has a dwarf gets a bonus to everything unless a prostitute is around.

Finally every double 6 that is roled a random hero or king is instantly killed.

Mike3791
24-09-2013, 05:11
threads it also seems to be a regional thing. Fantasy seems to be much less popular in the United States than it is in Europe (which by all accounts has a thriving Fantasy community), for example.

This is a terrible justification from a business perspective. North America is a giant market, it would be foolish to throw it away without a fight.. or be "content" with only holding the European market. If GW wants Fantasy to be a global game, they need to focus on retaking North America.

lbecks
24-09-2013, 05:28
If Fantasy was dying they wouldn't dedicate half their releases to Fantasy.

Mike3791
24-09-2013, 05:30
If Fantasy was dying they would dedicate half their releases to Fantasy.

They do, look at the 2013 release list.

lbecks
24-09-2013, 05:36
They do, look at the 2013 release list.

Whoops meant to say wouldn't. Fantasy is obviously doing well enough for GW.

Lord Solar Plexus
24-09-2013, 06:18
This is a terrible justification from a business perspective.

Huh? "Not in Europe" is not a justification, from whatever perspective.


If Fantasy was dying they wouldn't dedicate half their releases to Fantasy.

Why not?

ashc
24-09-2013, 07:05
Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2

What a splendid idea to have game of thrones on the table top. You could have the humans fight other humans that are secretly at war with themselves.

Then anyone that has a dwarf gets a bonus to everything unless a prostitute is around.

Finally every double 6 that is roled a random hero or king is instantly killed.

If your opponent fields Joffrey you have permission to slap him.

TheDungen
24-09-2013, 09:32
Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2

What a splendid idea to have game of thrones on the table top. You could have the humans fight other humans that are secretly at war with themselves.

Then anyone that has a dwarf gets a bonus to everything unless a prostitute is around.

Finally every double 6 that is roled a random hero or king is instantly killed.

don't forget you roll a d6 for each unit the first time you sue them in a turn, if you roll 1-3 then they have betrayed you and joined the enemy this turn. A GoT game could possibly be the only game more random than warhammer cause nothing anyone did would ever have to make sense.

Jokes aside, I could see warhamemr benefiting from taking some of the more mature themes from GoT and using them. corruption, faction infighting, more grey morality scale (not to be mistaken for the black and black morality scale of wh 40k) a deeper more complicated setting in all respects. They do know that the fan base for fantasy is older then why not charter to that demographic.

eldargal
24-09-2013, 09:36
This is a terrible justification from a business perspective. North America is a giant market, it would be foolish to throw it away without a fight.. or be "content" with only holding the European market. If GW wants Fantasy to be a global game, they need to focus on retaking North America.
He isn't justifying anything, he is pointing out that WFB has always been more popular in Europe than in the US, which is true. Also worth noting that in the survey of US retailers since 8th edition WFB has popped back up into the top 5 best selling games. So it seems to be doing better in the US than previously.

Kakapo42
24-09-2013, 11:19
Jokes aside, I could see warhamemr benefiting from taking some of the more mature themes from GoT and using them. corruption, faction infighting, more grey morality scale (not to be mistaken for the black and black morality scale of wh 40k) a deeper more complicated setting in all respects. They do know that the fan base for fantasy is older then why not charter to that demographic.

I thought they already had corruption (areas of Bretonnia and The Empire for starters) and faction infighting (Skaven, Chaos, Dark Elves, Orcs/Goblins, possibly Orgres, occasionally Wood Elves if two nobles decide they don't like each other that much, sometimes Dwarves if two of them have a grudge to settle, most times you get a match-up of two armies from the same faction) in Warhammer Fantasy? Grey morality I'll give you, though I'm hard-pressed to think of a faction with truly 'white' morality, but I kind of like that Fantasy has a lighter morality scale, I find it a refreshing change personally. One can only handle so much grey and black in their morality I find.

eldargal
24-09-2013, 11:30
The new High Elf book had a GoT feminist streak in it if you want to view it that way, with Alarielle exerting her power and kicking things into shape instead of just letting the menfolk bicker about stupid things.

Jer
24-09-2013, 11:39
As long as the Hobbit/the Lord of the Rings still is a major product for Games Workshop I don't worry.

Litcheur
24-09-2013, 13:15
This is a terrible justification from a business perspective.

There are places where people are so crazy about guns they think blind people should be allowed to carry one too. :D

40k has lots of guns, fantasy hasn't. :D

Turgol
24-09-2013, 13:32
99? Wow, that is getting into the 'dying' rants late. I'm pretty sure the first time I heard that was back in '94. Those darn computer things were ruining wargames and RPGs, and everything was ruined forever. And lets not forget how that new fangled 'dumbed down' nonsense in 5th edition 2 years later utterly ruined the perfect beauty of the timeless 4th edition rules that everyone was required to love.

Well, to be perfectly fair, 4th edition was indeed awesome. 5th and 6th were really bad compared to it.

Ghremdal
24-09-2013, 13:43
Actually a computer game, Dark Omen, got me into warhammer in the first place. It went from there that I spend more time on tabletop then computer games.

A successful computer game (like DoW or Space marine for 40K) would be a real kicker for fantasy, and I think you would see a lot of new people coming into the hobby.

Commodus Leitdorf
24-09-2013, 13:49
Uggg, Fantasy is not dying, Fantasy just suffers from a severe case of "I don't know how to cross market my IP" Which GW seems to be getting better at with 40K, but still terribly behind in fantasy.

Seriously, just get more board games out there, Video games, hell even a damn straight to video cartoon so people learn about the setting and the history and you can pull in fans. Easy peasy stuff really.

oh...and maybe making Fantasy armies cheaper then 40k armies might help a bit too....:angel:

eldargal
24-09-2013, 13:50
Warhammer: Total War might have an effect too.

SteveW
24-09-2013, 13:53
A warhammer cartoon would be sweet. To bad it would be Space Marines running around hopping from planet to planet so the story wouldn't have to be continuous.

A new warhammer MMO wold also spark my interest. As long as EA didn't get their hands on it.

Romark
24-09-2013, 14:35
Over 700 currently on the WFB section. Wouldnt say it was dying.

I need Warhammer: Total War to hurry up. The concept is just too perfect!

enyoss
24-09-2013, 14:38
From what I've seen in the other 'THE END OF WARHAMMER FANTASY IS NIGH!!' threads it also seems to be a regional thing. Fantasy seems to be much less popular in the United States than it is in Europe (which by all accounts has a thriving Fantasy community), for example.

Not really true in my experience.

The club I played at in London in 2008/2009 was so busy you had to book your table a week in advance or wouldn't get to play.

I then moved to the US, where the scene was also pretty good, but after moving back to London in 2011 I have managed to get just one game. I've tried a couple of different clubs, including the one I played at before, but it has been practically impossible to get a game, never mind getting games "sold out" one week in advance. At one club I was informed that 8th edition had killed it dead, and unless I was interested in playing other stuff (Warmachine, Infinity?... not sure what this stuff is, but I think it was that), it would be a real struggle to get anything.

I've been starting up a new Daemon army over the past 18 months, but to be honest I'm kind of resigned to the fact that I might never get more than a couple of games with it. A real pity as I've been playing the game since 1993, and loving it all the while, but it does feel like it's a lost battle, never mind a losing one :(.

lbecks
24-09-2013, 14:52
I thought they already had corruption (areas of Bretonnia and The Empire for starters) and faction infighting (Skaven, Chaos, Dark Elves, Orcs/Goblins, possibly Orgres, occasionally Wood Elves if two nobles decide they don't like each other that much, sometimes Dwarves if two of them have a grudge to settle, most times you get a match-up of two armies from the same faction) in Warhammer Fantasy? Grey morality I'll give you, though I'm hard-pressed to think of a faction with truly 'white' morality, but I kind of like that Fantasy has a lighter morality scale, I find it a refreshing change personally. One can only handle so much grey and black in their morality I find.

GoT presents that through a first person viewpoint, mostly at the highest political levels, and then through various viewpoints which have their own motivations and opinions of the other viewpoints. I'm not really into the warhammer novels so i'm not sure if Fantasy has that kind of character depth and connection.

Gradek
24-09-2013, 14:58
Not really true in my experience.

The club I played at in London in 2008/2009 was so busy you had to book your table a week in advance or wouldn't get to play.

I then moved to the US, where the scene was also pretty good, but after moving back to London in 2011 I have managed to get just one game. I've tried a couple of different clubs, including the one I played at before, but it has been practically impossible to get a game, never mind getting games "sold out" one week in advance. At one club I was informed that 8th edition had killed it dead, and unless I was interested in playing other stuff (Warmachine, Infinity?... not sure what this stuff is, but I think it was that), it would be a real struggle to get anything.

I've been starting up a new Daemon army over the past 18 months, but to be honest I'm kind of resigned to the fact that I might never get more than a couple of games with it. A real pity as I've been playing the game since 1993, and loving it all the while, but it does feel like it's a lost battle, never mind a losing one :(.

Very anecdotal. For every person who makes a claim like this, there is another who claims that 8th reinvigorated WFB. The reality is that given the local and close knit make up of clubs/groups, it is very likely that dominant personalities who didn't like 8th "coerced" the group to another game. It happens all the time with store owners/club personalities. That is why flavor of the month games are what they are. From GW's perspective WFB sure appears to be doing just fine (in terms of both sales and profits).

IcedCrow
24-09-2013, 15:00
Sometimes it takes you the player to get up and organize events to make games happen. Therein lies the problem ... very few want to do this, they just want to show up and play and go home. Sometimes you have to put some work in for a gaming group to flourish. If you build it, they will come. Sometimes the solution is being the solution yourself.

Gradek
24-09-2013, 15:23
I also want to point out that after going over GW's annual report, we need to keep in mind that they generate almost double the sales in the EU that they do in North American ($69million vs 36 million) and thus the potential higher level of popularity of 40k in the US skews perceptions about the reality of GW's business model as a whole.

enyoss
24-09-2013, 15:27
Very anecdotal. For every person who makes a claim like this, there is another who claims that 8th reinvigorated WFB.

Absolutely :). I just wanted to add a counterpoint to the equally anecdotal "everything is fine in Europe" take on things, which I do tend to see quite a lot. I wish the scene was booming here but that just doesn't seem to be the case. I wish it was!

TheDungen
24-09-2013, 15:48
I thought they already had corruption (areas of Bretonnia and The Empire for starters) and faction infighting (Skaven, Chaos, Dark Elves, Orcs/Goblins, possibly Orgres, occasionally Wood Elves if two nobles decide they don't like each other that much, sometimes Dwarves if two of them have a grudge to settle, most times you get a match-up of two armies from the same faction) in Warhammer Fantasy? Grey morality I'll give you, though I'm hard-pressed to think of a faction with truly 'white' morality, but I kind of like that Fantasy has a lighter morality scale, I find it a refreshing change personally. One can only handle so much grey and black in their morality I find.

Not factions but there are plenty of white morality people, like every special character in one of the good races. I'm not asking for black black morality like 40k nor even black and grey morality, I'm asking for grey-grey morality, no one is truly evil no one is truly good. Everyone have their flaws and strengths, the changes to WoC had them moving in such a direction but the other evil races could be moved in a similair direction. Sure we have in fighting in the skaven ranks but what about dwarfs elves and humans (we have some in the human kingdoms granted). Sure these things exist but they could be given a greater role again. I'm not asking for a GoT style world because that world has gone infighting and bickering to the point where it's unrealistic but some grey shading would be nice and not only on the good evil scale but on the concepts, are all elves about magic are all dwarfs about runes and blackpowder, are there different opinions amongst the northmen on worshipping or how to worship the chaos gods. Lately warhammer has been vary much "all x is y" which might appeal to the younger crowd but not as much to the older who knows the world is rarely so simple

Soundwave
24-09-2013, 16:02
Death of Fantasy...pffff what drivel. Hello October release!

StygianBeach
24-09-2013, 16:35
Sure we have in fighting in the skaven ranks but what about dwarfs elves and humans (we have some in the human kingdoms granted). Sure these things exist but they could be given a greater role again. I'm not asking for a GoT style world because that world has gone infighting and bickering to the point where it's unrealistic.........

There is less in-fighting in GoT than there was in the actual War of the Roses.

I imagine that Bretonia is being retro-fitted to Game of Thrones at this very moment...... its what I would do if I was in charge anyway.

Captain Collius
24-09-2013, 17:51
Not factions but there are plenty of white morality people, like every special character in one of the good races. I'm not asking for black black morality like 40k nor even black and grey morality, I'm asking for grey-grey morality, no one is truly evil no one is truly good. Everyone have their flaws and strengths, the changes to WoC had them moving in such a direction but the other evil races could be moved in a similair direction. Sure we have in fighting in the skaven ranks but what about dwarfs elves and humans (we have some in the human kingdoms granted). Sure these things exist but they could be given a greater role again. I'm not asking for a GoT style world because that world has gone infighting and bickering to the point where it's unrealistic but some grey shading would be nice and not only on the good evil scale but on the concepts, are all elves about magic are all dwarfs about runes and blackpowder, are there different opinions amongst the northmen on worshipping or how to worship the chaos gods. Lately warhammer has been vary much "all x is y" which might appeal to the younger crowd but not as much to the older who knows the world is rarely so simple

The world is not so simple Hell the lizardmen are a good race who are supposed to want to destroy everyone who is not keeping their Plan. That means the Genocide of the Dark Elves the destruction of chaos. Shoving all the dwarves back into the mountains whether your chaos or not and the removal of all chaos from the world. They are order but not good. Points at skink priest sacrificing skaven.

arthurfallz
24-09-2013, 18:08
Up and downs, hills and valleys in sales. Only long term will we see if WHFB is destined for the dusty cupboards or will still be on the battleboards.

There does seem to be a lot less of the ubiquity of games in stores. In the 90s and early 00s it seemed to be everywhere, now less retailers carry it and less games seem to be going on. But my FLGS still runs tournies, and new releases are a big deal.

beerbeard
24-09-2013, 19:36
Hmmm, this October release doesn't look dead to me. Also, I think fantasy appeals more to modelers who don't play, but like to build and paint. A unit of 5 space marines is dull, dull, dull. A unit of 5 Chaos Knights, or Dragon Princes, or Ogres? No comparison. The only 40K armies that are close to being as interesting to model as most of the Fantasy armies are 'nids and Orks, and Fantasy has versions of both. Lizardmen are better than Tyranids, and O&G are about the same.

So there's that.

Voss
24-09-2013, 19:39
The irony is that computer games are at the weakest they've ever been, and a lot of computer game companies are either on decline or in full free fall.

Heard that before too :)

many, many times

TheDungen
25-09-2013, 06:32
There is less in-fighting in GoT than there was in the actual War of the Roses.

I imagine that Bretonia is being retro-fitted to Game of Thrones at this very moment...... its what I would do if I was in charge anyway.

the actual war of roses was much more of a standstill and hostage taking and a lot less burning villages and all out war however. I'm not talking actual game of thrones I'm talking about manoeuvring, politicking and stuff like that from most major characters (and within the factions), perhaps the comparison to GoT is even a bad one think daes'da'mar (the great game) from wheel of time instead. It's never open war seldom even assassinations, it's just trying to gain an advantage from everything.

Ramius4
25-09-2013, 06:42
Also worth noting that in the survey of US retailers since 8th edition WFB has popped back up into the top 5 best selling games.

It's in the top 5 selling games in the U.S. and we've got a thread about the 'death of fantasy'?!? Seriously? Dozens and dozens of companies would KILL to have one of the top 5 selling games.

Rudra34
25-09-2013, 06:46
In the Pacific NW fantasy has made a huge comeback in the last few years. We've gone from scrambling to find people for events to having to turn people away because we have filled up venues.

ashc
25-09-2013, 06:50
A unit of 5 space marines is dull, dull, dull. A unit of 5 Chaos Knights, or Dragon Princes, or Ogres? No comparison.

From that point of view its true, but what about painting a valkyrie/vendetta over another 10 of a unit of 50 skeletons or zombies? - I think the big unit sizes of 8th aren't actually that great an idea and it puts people off playing. I think lack of new players in fantasy is a big issue right now.

Ramius4
25-09-2013, 06:51
I live in Minnesota, which is hardly a mecca for gaming (other than Fantasy Flight Games headquarters within 10 miles), and it's very very easy to find games.

Caiphas Cain
25-09-2013, 07:44
I live in Minnesota, which is hardly a mecca for gaming (other than Fantasy Flight Games headquarters within 10 miles), and it's very very easy to find games.

That's interesting. Burnsville is just 20 minutes south of the TCs (FFG is in Roseville right?) and nobody plays fantasy at the local store. It's mostly WarMachine with a sprinkling of 40k.

Lord Solar Plexus
25-09-2013, 07:49
Hello Mr Johnson ;-)

We just welcomed two new guys into our little local league, so I cannot say it's dying over here...although of course some express the same concerns as elsewhere.

Soundwave
25-09-2013, 07:53
Fantasy is booming in my area for a back water town in Oz. We have 8 fantasy to 6 40k players locally.

Ramius4
25-09-2013, 07:53
That's interesting. Burnsville is just 20 minutes south of the TCs (FFG is in Roseville right?) and nobody plays fantasy at the local store. It's mostly WarMachine with a sprinkling of 40k.

Yup, FFG is in Roseville. There's a lot of local stores in the twin cities though. The Source being the biggest. I don't play in stores more than once a year anymore, but I've seen more than one place where a fantasy game is being played. Even at a little hole in the wall place called Level Up Games (primarily a magic seller), great owners!

I do think it's somewhat true in most areas that us fantasy players tend to play outside of stores however.

If you're interested in a game sometime, drop me a PM.

Yowzo
25-09-2013, 07:56
Here it boomed with 8th, bringing back players who had fell out of the hobby on 7th and 6th.

Nowadays is slightly upwards curve. Some players drop although new entries more than make up for the losses.

It helped we set up an escalation/painting league starting at 500 points. We got some formerly exclusively 40K and/or FoW that way and some of them already boast 2500 point tournament armies (though a disproportionate number of them play WoC).

IcedCrow
25-09-2013, 13:32
Our fantasy campaign had 32 players all told. We have 26 regulars.

Karak Norn Clansman
25-09-2013, 13:49
WHFB sales might have dipped recently, and it seem there is some miscontent about 8th edition (not from my side, though) which might play a part if some rumours about 9th edition are true. Fantasy, however, don't seem to be dying, but the mounting GW prices will eventually take its toll on the playerbase and even GW's profits. They have already done so in Lotr/The Hobbit.

From my local perspective and certainly from my gaming group's play frequency the current edition has been an upsurge for all things Warhammer, although current prices have made us search Ebay and alternative producers for new miniatures.

GlenMorray
25-09-2013, 14:18
This sort of rumour comes and goes, it's all tub thumping nonsense and take it all with a pinch of salt.

The reactions are usually;

1. Ohhh Fantasy is dead here, the only game anyone ever plays here is (Insert none-GW game, because I want everyone to think GW are doing really badly to reinforce my own personal agenda)

2. Fantasy is in the top 20 games played in my neck of the woods...

3. People don't play Fantasy near me because of the huge unit sizes and ridiks prices that GW charge people for this extremely specialist niche hobby we all secretly love.

4. Oh sales have dipped because the rules are teh suxx...


Pick and choose which ever type of Warseerite you want to listen to but usually the only people that tend to reply on these threads are the type of people that aren't bored of sprouting the same tripe over and over and over and over again...

FANTASY IS DOOMED!

GlenMorray
25-09-2013, 14:20
Oh and for my two pence worth since moving to Bucks I've only seen Fantasy played, which is why I've been dragged in kicking and screaming!
(I still don't know how to counter Chaos chariots with High Elves, If you know send a PM you bum!)

Feefait
25-09-2013, 16:55
Sometimes it takes you the player to get up and organize events to make games happen. Therein lies the problem ... very few want to do this, they just want to show up and play and go home. Sometimes you have to put some work in for a gaming group to flourish. If you build it, they will come. Sometimes the solution is being the solution yourself.

I think this is a good point, among a lot of good points in this thread. The derailment of GoT is not. :P lol Anywya, take myself for example... I could potentially organize a new game at the lgs, if they did fantasy. Typically when we go we are fighting for space among the yugioh, mtg, Cardfight crowd. The few left over tables might have 40k on them. The issue with me, and my one battle in a year+, is that I had a group that was very much solid and regular. As we have dropped from buying new stuff because of rices of books, models, etc we find we just don't care as much. Finding a new group that might do things different can be scary. I don't mind arguing with a friend of 20+ years if Model A can see, but I don't want to do it with a stranger. I used o play both systems competitively, and I was very good at it. I don't have that same motivation. I like my proxy's and my groups house rules. Plus, there are no more fantasy games around here.

Is this regional? Sure, but I think that it s also problematic. as has been mentioned, this is not isolated. Before new games popped up and disappeared before GW's might. Now? I see way more PP stuff going on then GW. I think the entrance price of PP is less, but I do not think it is necessarily a cheaper game. Each of their models is wicked expensive too. I just think the appeal of fantasy has diminished greatly across the board. 700 registered users in fantasy section here? That's not a lot, really. Someone said that fantasy was dying in 1999? Well that was a long time ago and even the best ostrich cannot deny that much has changed since then.

Sure, our models won't dissolve if/when the system dies but much interest will. There will be no new players, no new models if that happens. Not that I ever see new players anyway. Honestly, how many people do you know who has started fantasy in the last 5 years? GW puts half it's releases to fantasy? Sure...kinda, for now. :) Because we have had more Vampire, Chaos and High Elf books in the last 5 years then anything else. It is not healthy enough to take a chance on new armies, or rewrite old ones like Brettonia or Wood Elves.

I do not think that fantasy will be cancelled at the end of the year. Or next year. But I do think that with 9th there will be a major shift in books and releases that will be aimed at stemming rising costs and falling profits. I also think that if prices continue to rise then there is no hope of new players, which is effectively a death sentence for future development.

Feefait
25-09-2013, 16:59
Sorry, not sure if this is allowed, but this is the original video that got me thinking this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZuk6oO4J0s

Glen_Savet
25-09-2013, 17:07
In the Pacific NW fantasy has made a huge comeback in the last few years. We've gone from scrambling to find people for events to having to turn people away because we have filled up venues.

Really now? What events are these, and what part of the PNW?

yabbadabba
25-09-2013, 17:30
Just to be clear I don't think fantasy is dead, or necessarily on life support. However, it is troubling the state it is in. I just watched a Youtube video (forget what it was called) and some guy who appeared to be in the business was talking about GW's current policies and prices. Well anyway, he had kind of a throw away line where he said what he had heard was fantasy was dying and other games were taking over, but 40k was a long term investment for the player and GW.

Now, I have not played a game of fantasy in months. Despite 'my' lizardmen just getting a major release I do not have the book, or any new models. Looking back to my skaven I have only bought maybe 5-6 of the new items - and no big stuff. No cannons, catapults, monsters etc. My group, other than our ogre player, is kind of in the same way. We just don't play it. Checking the lgs it's all 40k games running. Even getting new fantasy stuff hardly makes it to the shelf. Of course, if no one buys it, then why order/stock it?

So basically what I am asking is this... is this the end of fantasy as we know it? Will the core players we have keep on with what we have and boycotting pricing and new armies? Honestly most of my skaven are from circa 1993, maybe up to 1997 at the latest. Anything else has been spot buys or after market. I would be sad to see the game I have played for 20+ years go away, but I wouldn't be naive enough to think it could never happen. In part you are confusing sales with gaming. The two are linked but not intimately The second is your location, in some places in the world WFB is far stringer than others and on a par or even exceeding 40K. Finally for a game to be played, two people need to play it. If you are not playing WFB, or trying to get a game, then it is almost guaranteed that no one will play it.

edit: Can I also add that the OP shows signs of GW Syndrome - that activity for the hobbyist is almost exclusively synonymous with new product. It's not. As hobbyists we need to move away from the idea that because we are not playing the current set of rules or not buying new models, somehow that is a disaster. Play WFB with whatever you want, if you like it just play it. Let GW worry about you buying stuff.

IcedCrow
25-09-2013, 17:37
Can I also add that the OP shows signs of GW Syndrome - that activity for the hobbyist is almost exclusively synonymous with new product.

I call this Conditioned Capitalism. That being, if new product isn't being created for a game-line, the game-line is dead and you shouldn't play it. If new product is not being visibly bought enmasse by consumers for a game-line, the game-line is dead and you shouldn't play it. That a game is only as viable as the new stuff created for it and once new stuff stops coming out for it, that somehow this kills the rules and makes the game dead and that you can't continue playing it.

yabbadabba
25-09-2013, 17:42
I call this Conditioned Capitalism. That being, if new product isn't being created for a game-line, the game-line is dead and you shouldn't play it. If new product is not being visibly bought enmasse by consumers for a game-line, the game-line is dead and you shouldn't play it. That a game is only as viable as the new stuff created for it and once new stuff stops coming out for it, that somehow this kills the rules and makes the game dead and that you can't continue playing it. I think you can also add to that if you haven't bought the product on the day of release, then you might as well not bother. This is more related to the video game industries where there is a huge amount of pressure for monster release days.

The Emperor
25-09-2013, 18:10
He isn't justifying anything, he is pointing out that WFB has always been more popular in Europe than in the US, which is true. Also worth noting that in the survey of US retailers since 8th edition WFB has popped back up into the top 5 best selling games. So it seems to be doing better in the US than previously.

Now if only it were doing better in Miami. I blew $400 on an Empire army before I realized that Fantasy was pretty much dead in my neck of the woods. D'OH!

beerbeard
25-09-2013, 19:41
Now if only it were doing better in Miami. I blew $400 on an Empire army before I realized that Fantasy was pretty much dead in my neck of the woods. D'OH!

Then get people to play! Buy a cheap Skaven army on ebay, make a 1,500 point list, and loan it to your friends who play 40k. If they are over 16, watch what happens.

beerbeard
25-09-2013, 19:42
Now if only it were doing better in Miami. I blew $400 on an Empire army before I realized that Fantasy was pretty much dead in my neck of the woods. D'OH!

Then get people to play! Buy a cheap Skaven army on ebay, make a 1,500 point list, and loan it to your friends who play 40k. If they are over 16, watch what happens.

IcedCrow
25-09-2013, 22:42
This came up today actually. As I have said, we have a pretty large and thorough fantasy community here. However, if you just go to the GW store in town... fantasy is dead. There is a player there I was talking to that was under the assumption that fantasy is dead because the GW store NEVER has any fantasy games going on there. By never I mean to my knowledge since it opened this spring there has been one fantasy game played there, and that was my group playing there. To him and his experience, fantasy is pretty much dead in our city.

red_zebra_ve
25-09-2013, 23:34
From GW Financial High Lights:

"The world will not tire of miniatures, nor fantasy.
The world can and does play computer games, online
and on phones now, not old-style
computers. Other people will produce great games an
d products. "

‘Fantasy’ becoming unfashionable
Fashion is a short-cycle phenomenon. We have been i
n business long enough to have lived through fantas
y being on no-one’s horizon (Lord
of the Who?), through a huge surge in interest earl
ier this century, back to where we are today. We al
so know that games played on
computers are not a threat, having lived through ma
ny cycles of their lives as well.
We are often asked about the threat caused by ‘fash
ions’, but we believe the evidence shows it is not
a threat to the business. Just so long
as we do our jobs properly"

Poseidal
26-09-2013, 10:36
Fantasy was the main GW game (and my main game) in the club where I played for a long time, but now no one plays it here regularly and the population has shifted in favour of 40k as the 'regular' game. I think the transition happened not long after 8th had been around for a few months IIRC.

Feefait
27-09-2013, 05:28
You're very defensive Iced Crow... perhaps nervous I may be right? Mua ahahahah... :) Say what you want about a system not being supported meaning the system is not dead and I will show you my stacks of confrontation minis, necromunda minis, or any pre-8th edition army books, magic cards, rule books gathering dust. Sure, there is no official rule that once a new edition comes out an old should be abandoned, and yes there will be some holdovers, but by and large people move on. look at any mmo, when content stops being released the game eventually dies. I don't know why I am arguing so hard for a point that is probably moot, but I think it's a fair thought. It's kind of like if I go to a store/restaurant every day and then stop going for a year or two, when i pass it again I am kind of surprised it is still there. fantasy may be the same way, i just wonder how many people will come back and try it out and buy new things. And yes, I do believe if people stop buying the product they will stop making it. Call me crazy on that one. :)

The Emperor
27-09-2013, 05:49
Then get people to play! Buy a cheap Skaven army on ebay, make a 1,500 point list, and loan it to your friends who play 40k. If they are over 16, watch what happens.

I tried getting my friends back into it, but they've all got mortgages and kids to worry about, and so don't really have the time or the money to spare on it. I think I'll give that a try at my local gaming store, though. I'm a habitual starter box purchaser, so I've got the Orcs, Goblins, Dwarfs, Skaven, and High Elves from the last few starter boxes. Maybe I'll try organizing something at the local game store, although I don't exactly have a lot of free time either, even though I don't have the kids to worry about. I don't know. We'll see.

m1acca1551
27-09-2013, 06:00
I tried getting my friends back into it, but they've all got mortgages and kids to worry about, and so don't really have the time or the money to spare on it. I think I'll give that a try at my local gaming store, though. I'm a habitual starter box purchaser, so I've got the Orcs, Goblins, Dwarfs, Skaven, and High Elves from the last few starter boxes. Maybe I'll try organizing something at the local game store, although I don't exactly have a lot of free time either, even though I don't have the kids to worry about. I don't know. We'll see.

Are they interested though? As in do they like the games they have tried? Or the idea of getting away and playing?

If yes? Than you have a window to work with. There is no rule in WFB saying you must play large or go home, smaller games can be far more involving and fun plus cheaper. Otherwise suggest mantic, or alternative miniature companies.

Yowzo
27-09-2013, 10:12
Are they interested though? As in do they like the games they have tried? Or the idea of getting away and playing?

If yes? Than you have a window to work with. There is no rule in WFB saying you must play large or go home, smaller games can be far more involving and fun plus cheaper.

There's this thing we do from time to time. 750 points games, then another game swapping armies.

Takes about the same time or less as your regular 2500-3000 point game and is great fun. Also makes you think about exploiting the advantage some armies may have in a small points game vs others, because your will be on the receiving end on the second game.

Litcheur
27-09-2013, 12:25
Then get people to play! Buy a cheap Skaven army on ebay, make a 1,500 point list, and loan it to your friends who play 40k. If they are over 16, watch what happens.
+1.

Or you can build an inexpensive Bret or Empire Army with proxys. There are lots of manufacturers out there.


Building your armies in pairs is something I discovered in historicals. Everybody have two or more matching pairs, and I think it's a great idea.

Because if I play Republican Romans and you play Hundread Year War French, we're going to have a problem, both with timeline and balance. If I have a Roman and a Carthinaginian army, and you have HYW French and English armies, then everything is fine, we can both play ancients and medievals...

IcedCrow
27-09-2013, 13:50
You're very defensive Iced Crow... perhaps nervous I may be right? Mua ahahahah... :) Say what you want about a system not being supported meaning the system is not dead and I will show you my stacks of confrontation minis, necromunda minis, or any pre-8th edition army books, magic cards, rule books gathering dust. Sure, there is no official rule that once a new edition comes out an old should be abandoned, and yes there will be some holdovers, but by and large people move on. look at any mmo, when content stops being released the game eventually dies. I don't know why I am arguing so hard for a point that is probably moot, but I think it's a fair thought. It's kind of like if I go to a store/restaurant every day and then stop going for a year or two, when i pass it again I am kind of surprised it is still there. fantasy may be the same way, i just wonder how many people will come back and try it out and buy new things. And yes, I do believe if people stop buying the product they will stop making it. Call me crazy on that one. :)

Right, that's why I call it conditioned capitalism. Its purely psychological. Nothing stops someone from playing an older version of the game, yet no one wants to if there is a newer edition (even if the newer edition is something they don't like). If a game goes out of print, that doesn't make the game not worth playing anymore, but people will stop playing it because suddenly new stuff isn't coming out for it.

I never said if people stop buying product that they shouldn't stop making it though. That's also called capitalism; there's no point producing something no one buys. My statement is that people stop using a product if it stops being selled even if they already own it. Games like EPIC, Warmaster, Battle Fleet Gothic... these are all very solid and great games but finding people to play it is impossible because no one wants to touch a game that is not "active" (despite the fact you can use counters, ebay old ships, etc fairly easily)

yabbadabba
27-09-2013, 17:52
Right, that's why I call it conditioned capitalism. Its purely psychological. Nothing stops someone from playing an older version of the game, yet no one wants to if there is a newer edition (even if the newer edition is something they don't like). If a game goes out of print, that doesn't make the game not worth playing anymore, but people will stop playing it because suddenly new stuff isn't coming out for it.

I never said if people stop buying product that they shouldn't stop making it though. That's also called capitalism; there's no point producing something no one buys. My statement is that people stop using a product if it stops being selled even if they already own it. Games like EPIC, Warmaster, Battle Fleet Gothic... these are all very solid and great games but finding people to play it is impossible because no one wants to touch a game that is not "active" (despite the fact you can use counters, ebay old ships, etc fairly easily) We can also add to that that old BS that "support" = "new models" or "new rules". It doesn't. Support means you still stock the product and your customers still buy it, even in dribs and drabs. Babysitting means that you hold your customers hands while they play with their toys. Money-grabbing whatsits is what happens when someone keeps pumping out new stuff regardless of the useability of the old stuff - Apple and mobile phones are ideal examples of this.

Soundwave
27-09-2013, 18:18
Mmm all of these threads should be renamed "fantasy is dead for me in my area " and placed somwhere else other than in the wfb general section??? Should i go post a thread in the 40k section of how it is losing interest in my area? No us fantasy players are much more tactfull.

IcedCrow
27-09-2013, 18:26
It needs to go under "chaos space marine penis-envy whine thread" lol

Soundwave
27-09-2013, 18:48
It needs to go under "chaos space marine penis-envy whine thread" lol
Indeed Sir!:).

Coldhatred
27-09-2013, 18:59
My statement is that people stop using a product if it stops being selled even if they already own it. Games like EPIC, Warmaster, Battle Fleet Gothic... these are all very solid and great games but finding people to play it is impossible because no one wants to touch a game that is not "active" (despite the fact you can use counters, ebay old ships, etc fairly easily)

Well of course it would be hard. Those games are not supported, they do not capture new players very easily if at all due to no marketing, support, and the lack of ease to get the models. Sure, you can find deals on Ebay, but you'll find the vast majority of people who would be interested in these games are not willing to take the time to hunt for that deal. Might it be conditioned capitalism? Sure, but that is exactly the problem in the end, as if the market truly wanted more of these games GW wouldn't have stopped supporting them. That's what it comes down to in the end, because as much as I like my Warmaster army, it's hard to find opponents due to the above, therefore I've stopped using it.

IcedCrow
27-09-2013, 19:31
However those games stopped being played for years while the models were still available on GW's specialist store because they werne't being updated and new stuff wasn't coming out for them.

Jimjim
27-09-2013, 19:43
The "warhammer is dying" topic has been around approximately half of my WHFB-days. From 1999-2005, the WHFB community where I live was booming. Suddenly, it could go months between each time I found someone willing to play, as literally everyone moved to 40k or other games. The WHFB scene was basically dead. And I was on and off for a number of years. When I decided to actively engage myself again, I went to the local club, which had moved, and gotten quite a few new members. Only difference this time was that 40k was still huge, along with Warmahordes and FoW - but it turned out fantasy was alive and well.
I've never played so much WHFB as I do now. This could be exclusive for my area, but Fantasy surely has had a revival.. We decided to make a FB group for all the WHFB players in the area - and to my great surprise - we are now over 40 people. So in my experience, Fantasy is alive and well - at least our community is thriving.

Jimjim
27-09-2013, 19:43
The "warhammer is dying" topic has been around approximately half of my WHFB-days. From 1999-2005, the WHFB community where I live was booming. Suddenly, it could go months between each time I found someone willing to play, as literally everyone moved to 40k or other games. The WHFB scene was basically dead. And I was on and off for a number of years. When I decided to actively engage myself again, I went to the local club, which had moved, and gotten quite a few new members. Only difference this time was that 40k was still huge, along with Warmahordes and FoW - but it turned out fantasy was alive and well.
I've never played so much WHFB as I do now. This could be exclusive for my area, but Fantasy surely has had a revival.. We decided to make a FB group for all the WHFB players in the area - and to my great surprise - we are now over 40 people. So in my experience, Fantasy is alive and well - at least our community is thriving.

Belakor
27-09-2013, 19:47
It needs to go under "chaos space marine penis-envy whine thread" lol

Damn it!

I too wish I was morbidly and personally insulted that my beloved Black Legion codex supplement wasn't fully packed to the brink with Heldrake equivalent choices.

The Emperor
27-09-2013, 21:39
Are they interested though? As in do they like the games they have tried? Or the idea of getting away and playing?

Yep. Hell, one of them suggested we get back into miniature gaming, which is part of the reason why I splurged on the Empire army, while another used to play 40k back when we got into it during 2nd edition, and had an Eldar army that I smashed all the time with my Space Wolves. But like I said, work and kids. They don't have a whole lot of time to spare these days. I've been trying to get at least one of them to find the time and use one of the spare starter forces I've got lying around, but no luck so far.

Coldhatred
28-09-2013, 05:44
However those games stopped being played for years while the models were still available on GW's specialist store because they werne't being updated and new stuff wasn't coming out for them.

Because they were running down the stock. Eventually the sales data probably showed it was better to write off the little that was left than keep it around.

Voss
28-09-2013, 07:39
However those games stopped being played for years while the models were still available on GW's specialist store because they werne't being updated and new stuff wasn't coming out for them.

But there is a fair bit to suggest that they stop the updates because people weren't buying the stuff that was available. This isn't exactly a one way street, and specialist games lingered on far longer than most companies would have bothered. They tried several different approaches, including community driven stuff with both gothic and epic. It still didn't keep those lines above water.

yabbadabba
28-09-2013, 08:19
But there is a fair bit to suggest that they stop the updates because people weren't buying the stuff that was available. This isn't exactly a one way street, and specialist games lingered on far longer than most companies would have bothered. They tried several different approaches, including community driven stuff with both gothic and epic. It still didn't keep those lines above water. The problem is Voss no matter how often you say that the sales of anything were awful, people will always choose to blame GW rather than accept the evidence. The vast majority of threads such as these often forget simple things that greatly change the situation. It's easier to blame GW for not being like Walmart than it is to think through such things logically.

Spider
28-09-2013, 10:13
Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2

What a splendid idea to have game of thrones on the table top. You could have the humans fight other humans that are secretly at war with themselves.

Then anyone that has a dwarf gets a bonus to everything unless a prostitute is around.

Finally every double 6 that is roled a random hero or king is instantly killed.

Don't forget, that in order to play as any faction one is required to disrobe on role of any double.

barjed
28-09-2013, 15:46
These topic are getting really old fast.


Just to be clear I don't think fantasy is dead, or necessarily on life support. However, it is troubling the state it is in. I just watched a Youtube video (forget what it was called) and some guy who appeared to be in the business was talking about GW's current policies and prices. Well anyway, he had kind of a throw away line where he said what he had heard was fantasy was dying and other games were taking over, but 40k was a long term investment for the player and GW.

See, the problem with this kind of armchair general mentality is that the reality completely disproves it. We just had a sweeping Dark Elf release with another wave coming next month - a release that is nearly double the size of GW's bestselling Marines. If anything this shows dedication to the product. Last WD claims that the DE release was the biggest one the Design studio has worked on ever yet. This is the "long term investment" you are talking about. A lot of the "bad blood" of the "people in the business" comes from GW's recent attempts at uprooting independent retailers, because it hurts their business directly.


I think its a combo of high cost, flawed rules and imbalanced codexes that are major factors.

Wait, what? While the "cost" is highly subjective, both rules and army books balance are fine. 8th is the most balanced edition yet, any imbalances that are left are because of the older armies and are getting nullified as we speak (DE are gettin the axe now). Design-wise it's WHFB's prime time.

Jer
28-09-2013, 19:13
Does Games Workshop publishes any financial reports? If they do, we can easily figure it out.

Sotek
28-09-2013, 19:57
Wait, what? While the "cost" is highly subjective, both rules and army books balance are fine. 8th is the most balanced edition yet, any imbalances that are left are because of the older armies and are getting nullified as we speak (DE are gettin the axe now). Design-wise it's WHFB's prime time.

Erm 70 for 250pts of core witch elves. For 70 I can get 2 tactical squads and a rhino. That's 4 scoring units, all of my troops choices and a vehicle as well as extra weapons and bits that I can use on my other space marines.
2 boxes of witch elves I get 10 not very customisable elves, which won't last as long as my 2 units of marines. In addition the extra options in the box can only be used with witch elves to make an alternative unit.

The balance is returning to 8th with every new army book. Infact its probably more balanced than 40k at the moment. But it is criminally expensive, compared to 40k and compared to almost any other miniature game.
I'm quite depressed about this as while the army is beautiful there is no way on earth that I could justify getting a new dark elf army no matter how much I want to. And believe me I really do.

Scammel
28-09-2013, 20:17
The balance is returning to 8th with every new army book. Infact its probably more balanced than 40k at the moment.

8th has been more balanced than 40k since - well, probably release I'd say.

yabbadabba
28-09-2013, 20:31
Erm 70 for 250pts of core witch elves. For 70 I can get 2 tactical squads and a rhino. That's 4 scoring units, all of my troops choices and a vehicle as well as extra weapons and bits that I can use on my other space marines. Something is not quite right with your cash numbers there. Can you explain how you got your figures please?

2 boxes of witch elves I get 10 not very customisable elves, which won't last as long as my 2 units of marines. Your Marines are not that customisable either. In addition in most armies across 40K and WFB most units will not last as long as your 2 squads of marines either, not in a "blind" match up anyway.

In addition the extra options in the box can only be used with witch elves to make an alternative unit. Fair enough, but I think you can be more creative, but the knock on effects could be higher.

The balance is returning to 8th with every new army book. In fact its probably more balanced than 40k at the moment. But it is criminally expensive, compared to 40k and compared to almost any other miniature game. I'm quite depressed about this as while the army is beautiful there is no way on earth that I could justify getting a new dark elf army no matter how much I want to. And believe me I really do. I think you could bu it depends on how you approach it. If you love the new models, then you have to pay. If not you could probably knock up a mixed manufacturer army quite easily and for a reasonable price.

GW absolutely have an issue with prices, but that should only affect those who must have a GW only army, or those who haven't been informed of the breadth of other manufacturers, and Ebay.

Johnmclane
28-09-2013, 21:48
The recent prices will really open up the market for third party producer to make infantry unit kits. I just got a mail from AoW where they told about making their warriors of apok in plastics :)

Kakapo42
29-09-2013, 01:25
2 boxes of witch elves I get 10 not very customisable elves, which won't last as long as my 2 units of marines. In addition the extra options in the box can only be used with witch elves to make an alternative unit.

Erm, wouldn't 2 boxes of Witch Elves give you 20 of them, not 10? Since, y'know, they come in boxes of 10.

Fizzy
29-09-2013, 01:41
Still they are overpriced for 10 simple models...

Anyway fantasy is not dying. I really hope it wont either. I dont play it. But FW releases some pretty nice fantasy stuff I buy randomly so I want it to live.

Lord Solar Plexus
29-09-2013, 11:37
At no time have I played as much as this year. Not even back in the days when I went to school and had much more time to kill, when we all played nothing but 40k did I play this much.

There are a few who express open dislike, and many are into FF and Infinity here but then again others are coming back into our league.

Sexiest_hero
29-09-2013, 14:29
FANTASY HAS DIED! IT is DEAD. Then it came back as undead and will exist forever, long after we are dust. So when people claim warhammer is dead just agree and say yet it still lingers on like some dusty tomb king.

As for the Game of Thrones table top on a role of double 1s you get the "Dreaded TV casting". The other player gets to paint one of your special heroes with brown skin and declare it evil regardless of what your armybook says. on double 6s you get to paint on of his brown villains pale and declare it good, regardless of what his army book says. And yes this actually happened with the show.

dalezzz
30-09-2013, 07:47
Are avatars of war any cheaper? No doubt the models look excellent , but I see 30 for 17 avatars of war chaos warriors and 20 for 12 GW ones , pretty much the same price per model . I expect a lot of the dwarves are cheaper than their metal counterparts, if they have them of course :p

Lord Solar Plexus
30-09-2013, 08:00
AoW cost nearly the same. Perry Minis are noticeably cheaper than GW humans and not terrible but they're also visibly smaller.

ashc
30-09-2013, 18:11
This is always my argument with warmachine; yes i understand you only need a 35 box to immediately play, but their boxes ofplastic men are still 35 for 10 plastic men in most cases.

Zhudas
01-10-2013, 13:56
if you travel at all, you. Will see that fantasy is dead in many probably most areas, though I think that there has been an occasional heart beat lately.

many reasons for it, number one the incredible price of entry into the game, from rule books at 75 bucks, to starter sets that are expensive and don't even provide nice little starter armies ( look to war machine for sweet starter sets). Then you have a rule set that has taken out much of the wargame and left a game, 8th ed. will never be used as the basis for a warhammer ancients game, because it's taken out some of the huge downsides of being flanked along with its idiotic Los and skirmishes rules.

Fantasy really took off with the first big box set, it was a good value, and while the entry price started to rise about that time it still hadn't reached the horrendous levels of today. Just think of the difference in cost between units 4 across and 4 deep and 10 accross and 4 deep. You have gone from lead minis that cost a buck and a quarter each to plastic minis that cost 4 bucks each.

And nod just as in 40k with the utterly idiotic flyers in the current edition, you have fantasy turning into big box monster kkit game.

In the end fantasy is still getting played in some places, but it's pretty much dead in most game stores accross the us in terms of game play, even if some of the minis are still selling.

eldargal
01-10-2013, 14:07
In the end fantasy is still getting played in some places, but it's pretty much dead in most game stores accross the us in terms of game play, even if some of the minis are still selling.
And yet according to US retailers it is selling better than it has in years.:rolleyes:

IcedCrow
01-10-2013, 14:35
And yet according to US retailers it is selling better than it has in years.:rolleyes:

"Fantasy is dead" - been waiting since 1998 for it to come true, as that was when it started being said all the time.

Still hasn't happened.

Gradek
01-10-2013, 14:57
"Fantasy is dead" - been waiting since 1998 for it to come true, as that was when it started being said all the time.

Still hasn't happened.

I wonder how much of this sentiment is perpetuated by independent retailers who are upset because a)a nearby GW store has taken their business, b) GW pricing policies reduce margins on GW (for the independent retailer), or c) required investment to even carry GW products.

IcedCrow
01-10-2013, 15:10
I'm sure part of it is related to the independent retailers' woes. A lot of it is self perception. A lot of it is intentional trolling to push a warmachine/hordes or flames of war or whatever non fantasy game agenda by gaming the conditional capitalism game (no one plays fantasy why are you wasting your time with it? come play hordes with us!)

Voss
01-10-2013, 15:51
I'm sure part of it is related to the independent retailers' woes. A lot of it is self perception. A lot of it is intentional trolling to push a warmachine/hordes or flames of war or whatever non fantasy game agenda by gaming the conditional capitalism game (no one plays fantasy why are you wasting your time with it? come play hordes with us!)

Eh, it isn't that. The 'death of fantasy' happened long before there were reasonable alternative games running around. Even before the price hikes. Seems to be a psychological thing- if someone gets tired of something, it must be bad or dying. It can't be the person moving on.

plantagenet
01-10-2013, 19:27
There are sales numbers out there though which do show that Fantasy is not in comparison to games such as 40k, warmachine, hordes, x-wing doing particularly well. GW have made an army game and priced it at skirmish game prices. You can argue about the value of a model vis a vie another but fact is that the price of 10 witch elves is now more expensive than it cost to buy the Battle of Skull pass intro box set when it was first released.
One of the reasons why GW have done well traditionally is that wherever you went you could find players. So unlike historical games where everybody used different rulesets etc you knew with GW that you were all working from the same book. Now fantasy in the my area in the US at the very least is now the fringe game like warmachines and hordes used to be.
I also think Fantasy is slightly hurt by the time it takes to play and collect. Warmachine you slap up your 10 to 20 models and play. Fantasy takes far more effort to transport setup, collect and paint. As soon as a hobby require work you are immediately going to cut into the player base.

Its a shame I love fantasy, I like 8th edition and think its a good game. I actually in general think the models are getting nicer all the time and the quality of the product that is being produced is also better than ever. However I can't at its current prices recommend anyone entertain starting and that's a sad thing to say about your own hobby. In terms of the value proposition historicals just have us fantasy gamers beat. And where it used to be about half the price to collect a historical army versus GW it is probably in the region of a 1/10th of the price now. Historical companies have taken advantage of plastics to lower prices or increase the value of there offering, GW has used it as an excuse to rise prices.

IcedCrow
01-10-2013, 19:40
Warmachine you slap up your 10 to 20 models and play. Fantasy takes far more effort to transport setup, collect and paint. As soon as a hobby require work you are immediately going to cut into the player base.

The trend the past eight years now or so is heavy push on skirmish level games that require fewer and fewer models. Warhammer is a game about armies and units, not a handful of models led by a super model. It will always while it remains an army game have this cross comparison against it.

Personally I prefer that because I don't enjoy skirmish level games and now a days we are flooded with those style of games. Its nice that there is still an army level game still out there.

Kuroi
02-10-2013, 03:44
Oh good. Another fantasy is dying thread.

We haven't had one in a couple weeks.

:)




This wins^^

chaospantz
02-10-2013, 09:04
I think the biggest mark agains fantasy is that people like their tanks and supper humans, and the cost. Mostly the cost. You can buy a box of space marines for 35 and have a full 10 man unit, or you can spend 25 on 10 models and still need another 20-30 just for one unit. I will say that not matter how much I play 40K, fantasy is still more fun for me.