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TheKingInYellow
24-09-2013, 19:40
According to Pins of War (http://pinsofwar.com) White Dwarf has details on a new Codex?!

Sounds like it will be a standalone product, updated for 6th including Warlord Traits, etc...

anselminus
24-09-2013, 19:44
It looks like strongly a fake

Lord Damocles
24-09-2013, 19:46
'Available as a standalone product for the first time' strongly implies a (updated) reprint of the current list.

Kijamon
24-09-2013, 19:48
'Available as a standalone product for the first time' strongly implies a (updated) reprint of the current list.

Screams it even. No way is this anything remotely what people want.

TheKingInYellow
24-09-2013, 20:01
If it's updated though, it might bring them in line with the current C:SM, and add some of the new units perhaps?

A.T.
24-09-2013, 20:16
It looks like strongly a fakeThe fact that the picture is an edited version of the Fantasy Flight games "Inquisitors Handbook" doesn't help.

edit - actually the alternate version from the original author, after looking into it.

Adyger
24-09-2013, 22:25
Which product did they drop?

Bigglesworth
24-09-2013, 22:29
Which product did they drop?

I heard it was their version of the Immolator, I think they said it was not different enough to the plastic version. I don't know how old it was or if it pre dated the plastic kit.

I would not read much into it, a lot of their older kits vanish when the moulds finally conk out.

Ohman
24-09-2013, 22:32
I belive Best_pone said that the old WD codex would be (re-)released soon. Thread got closed but here it is: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?380291-Codex-Sisters-of-Battle

Darnok
24-09-2013, 22:41
Best_Pone is one of the most reliable sources we currently have. This only supports that SoB rumour. I guess we should wait for WD this weekend then...

Guyver 3
24-09-2013, 23:03
We'll see,

Sisters problem isn't the wd dex (though it doesn't help) its the extreme price of the army on direct sales only,

One thing they need is saint celestine to be properly costed as she is ridiculously cheap.

Darnok
24-09-2013, 23:04
No pricing discussion or wishlisting though, please. ;)


Darnok [=I=]

Guyver 3
24-09-2013, 23:10
Oops

One thing about the cover pic, it is strange to get an old image but it is an old product that is probably gonna be a cut and paste job that anyone with skill could have knocked up in half an hour so an old cover is hardly suprising!

Zion
24-09-2013, 23:11
I, for one, am excited to see Sisters getting some attention. I remain hopeful regardless of naysayers as this is a chance for GW to throw Sisters players a bone.

In an odd moment of irony I've been thinking Sisters and BA would get a release about the same time, but I've been predicting that for an official release late next year off a hunch.

EDIT:
Oops

One thing about the cover pic, it is strange to get an old image but it is an old product that is probably gonna be a cut and paste job that anyone with skill could have knocked up in half an hour so an old cover is hardly suprising!

I agree, it's more likely that GW would NOT use new artwork on a reworked set of rules than spend money on new art.

Guyver 3
24-09-2013, 23:16
With no model support it will be a hard sell.

BTJ
24-09-2013, 23:18
Looks like a digital update to me, with HP and Warlord traits added. Seeing as how the army's all metal though, they need to release a load of FC stuff for it, to replace the minis that don't exist anymore

Guyver 3
24-09-2013, 23:20
Im assuming they won't do anything to the models in an attempt to shift their metal stock

Zion
24-09-2013, 23:22
Looks like a digital update to me, with HP and Warlord traits added. Seeing as how the army's all metal though, they need to release a load of FC stuff for it, to replace the minis that don't exist anymore

I imagine Relics will make it too (Celestine's Sword and Kyrinov's mace come to mind for instance).

If we're REALLY good maybe we'll see some points adjustments (cheaper Heavy Flamers and Battle Sisters top my list).

stevegill
25-09-2013, 00:17
I heard it was their version of the Immolator, I think they said it was not different enough to the plastic version. I don't know how old it was or if it pre dated the plastic kit.

I would not read much into it, a lot of their older kits vanish when the moulds finally conk out.

FW Immolator was out of stock "awaiting repackaging" for months, this week they confirmed to me they won't be remoulding it :cries:

Any sign from GW that they consider the Sisters to be a valid force is awesome right now, even if it is just a slight mod on the WD dex of shame

Santtu
25-09-2013, 00:37
I wonder if Mace of Valaan will become just an ordinary power maul.

Warnoober
25-09-2013, 01:21
Lets not get our hopes up to high. More than likely it a reprint with a couple additions, like Warlord Traits. What it really means is SoB players wont be getting a real dex for even longer now. It's just another stop-gap.

IcedAnimals
25-09-2013, 03:09
It depends on if you are a glass half full or half empty type of person. While it "could" mean that the sisters codex is even further away than we thought. It "could" also mean they are finally looking at sisters seriously and tossing around some ideas. The only thing it DOES mean is they are giving us some new rules to play with. I look forward to seeing our unique warlord traits even if that is the only real change in the whole book.

shabbadoo
25-09-2013, 04:46
Screams it even. No way is this anything remotely what people want.
Ya know, some people just might actually want some updated rules that they can use with the models they have to tide them over until the army is (almost) fully redone.

MajorWesJanson
25-09-2013, 05:30
I wonder if Mace of Valaan will become just an ordinary power maul.

Given recent books, I'd say Power Mace with either Soulblaze or Strikedown added, if they do Relics.

Voss
25-09-2013, 05:30
If it's updated though, it might bring them in line with the current C:SM, and add some of the new units perhaps?

What new units? That would require making new Sisters units, wouldn't it?



FW Immolator was out of stock "awaiting repackaging" for months, this week they confirmed to me they won't be remoulding it :cries:

Well, since there is a GW plastic immolator kit, it wouldn't actually make sense for FW to do so. Regardless of what people feel are the possible merits or flaws of either.

Shibboleth
25-09-2013, 05:49
I don't play Sisters but I'd be interested in a digital codex if it had some good fluff and art.
This sounds like it will be mostly rules though?

Charistoph
25-09-2013, 08:16
'Available as a standalone product for the first time' strongly implies a (updated) reprint of the current list.

Except this wouldn't be the first time that a Codex: Sisters of Battle is available as a standalone product. There was a 2nd Edition book, if I remember correctly. It would be the first time it's in an official digital format, though.

But without new models (not necessarily new units), I don't see how/why this would be happening.

Poseidal
25-09-2013, 09:03
Except this wouldn't be the first time that a Codex: Sisters of Battle is available as a standalone product. There was a 2nd Edition book, if I remember correctly. It would be the first time it's in an official digital format, though.

But without new models (not necessarily new units), I don't see how/why this would be happening.

Yep, which is why it's probably specifically mentioning this one meaning it's the WD 'dex with 6th updates (Warlord Traits, Magic Items, Hull Points).

benogham
25-09-2013, 09:28
i think the image given in pins of war is a fake.
> Adeptus Sororitas is mentionned whereas latest sources call the sista "Adepta Sororitas" (last ref is in the codex:SM)
> In the white dwarf, the first words of each article are in red, not there.

duffybear1988
25-09-2013, 09:31
Give me back my frateris militia and useful arco flagellants god damn it!!!

Baaltor
25-09-2013, 09:54
i think the image given in pins of war is a fake.
> Adeptus Sororitas is mentionned whereas latest sources call the sista "Adepta Sororitas" (last ref is in the codex:SM)
> In the white dwarf, the first words of each article are in red, not there.

GW has had worse errors. Like the Hvy. Bolter Flamer or whatever was in the last WD book, or Phil Kelly chastising the chaos force in the battle report for not making use of a Daemon weapon for the sake of "AP 2".

A.T.
25-09-2013, 10:07
But without new models (not necessarily new units), I don't see how/why this would be happening.It doesn't cost them much to copy/paste a white dwarf article into an ebook template. At 10-20 a copy they'll make back their costs with a half dozen sales and it might encourage a few players to clear out some of the old stock.

Frankly i'd be amazed if they even updated the seraphim pistols rule.

Guyver 3
25-09-2013, 10:27
This, exactly this.

Anyone hoping for more than a cut and paste job is gonna be disapointed.

CaptainSenioris
25-09-2013, 10:55
It wouldn't be the first 6th edition codex to have old artwork as a cover.

This came out before 6th ed & the Chaos book http://www.blacklibrary.com/all-products/blood-gorgons-ebook.html

A.T.
25-09-2013, 12:02
Anyone hoping for more than a cut and paste job is gonna be disapointed.178843

I don't think a warlord chart would be out of the question, though I wonder what has taken them all this time.

War Corgi
25-09-2013, 12:26
I can't help but be excited about this. The current rules are workable. The addition of new warlord traits alone is exciting.

duffybear1988
25-09-2013, 12:49
I can't help but be excited about this. The current rules are workable. The addition of new warlord traits alone is exciting.

The current rules are mostly worse than the ones they replaced... The whole way that acts of faith have been dealt with is terrible, canoness is useless, priests are overpriced, basic sisters are overpriced, tanks are overpriced, arco flagellants are useless, celestians are useless, guns are overpriced, take special characters or go home, etc.

kieranhoare
25-09-2013, 12:56
i just want plastic sisters, i'm not paying $30ish for 3 sisters with bolters, and $22ish for a sister with a special or heavy weapon

Latro_
25-09-2013, 14:01
At least its a sort-of push in the right direction that SoB are not gonna get scrapped entirely (which was the recent fear on the internets/community)

On the other hand a entirly new book would be supported by a digital dex so its fair to say this re-release signals there wont be a 'new' book for a long time.

Zion
25-09-2013, 14:05
The current rules are mostly worse than the ones they replaced... The whole way that acts of faith have been dealt with is terrible, canoness is useless, priests are overpriced, basic sisters are overpriced, tanks are overpriced, arco flagellants are useless, celestians are useless, guns are overpriced, take special characters or go home, etc.

Honestly, I've won more games with the WD Dex than C:WH so I'm not really that sure that the rules ARE worse. It's a give and take at least. Some things are better, some are worse.

eldargal
25-09-2013, 14:05
This, exactly this.

Anyone hoping for more than a cut and paste job is gonna be disapointed.
Funny, but it mentions a new Warlord Traits chart which isn't cut and paste and rules updated for 6th edition which can't be cut and paste. So either you are wrong or you have a very strange idea off what cut and paste is.

Latro_
25-09-2013, 14:13
Ofc the addition of a warlord traits table does not make it a cut'n'paste job.

It makes it a 99% cut'n'paste job.

Guyver 3
25-09-2013, 14:29
I expect them to take their old files cut and paste in the faq changes, add a warlord trait table (using copy and paste no doubt) open a ebook and put the barely changed files into the ebook,

Less than a days work for sure!

Zion
25-09-2013, 14:43
I think we may see some points adjustments to bring Sisters in line with 6th. Cheaper troops and Heavy Flamers come to mind mainly (someone made a great point on another site: a Battle Sisters with a Heavy Flamer is the same cost as a Sternguard with a Heavy Flamer but has -1WS/S/T/I and doesn't have ATSKNF but instead get Acts of Faith....not really good right now).

stevegill
25-09-2013, 14:46
What new units? That would require making new Sisters units, wouldn't it?

And as we can't currently buy most of the basic sisters models from GW that would be exceptionally unlikely.


Well, since there is a GW plastic immolator kit, it wouldn't actually make sense for FW to do so. Regardless of what people feel are the possible merits or flaws of either.

I fully understand the decision from FW's view point, I just wish they hadn't told me it was definitely coming back soon so I could have worked on modelling a replacement for the final one I wanted for my Dominions. Ah well, c'est la vie.

Zion
25-09-2013, 14:55
And as we can't currently buy most of the basic sisters models from GW that would be exceptionally unlikely.

Odd, because as far as I know they're still for sale. In fact, I just looked and I think we just got a model back (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat660008a&prodId=prod1300029a):

178851

I don't recall seeing her for a while at least.

Poseidal
25-09-2013, 14:56
I expect them to take their old files cut and paste in the faq changes, add a warlord trait table (using copy and paste no doubt) open a ebook and put the barely changed files into the ebook,

Less than a days work for sure!

They're going to have to re-word it first for sure, then the editor has to go through it.

But then the design team (not rules studio, but the guys who lay out the books) have to layout in any digital and print formats if relevant, and re-style and apply and draw art assets (like the funny borders and backgrounds they like to have in the new full colour books) to fit the 6th edition aesthetic which the old WD article won't.

There's a lot more work than just making up the rules and faqs. The 6th edition codices are actually exquisite compared with the majority of game rulebooks out there and are technically superior to even the Forge World ones (bar pehaps the HH books) in design effort.

Zion
25-09-2013, 15:09
They're going to have to re-word it first for sure, then the editor has to go through it.

But then the design team (not rules studio, but the guys who lay out the books) have to layout in any digital and print formats if relevant, and re-style and apply and draw art assets (like the funny borders and backgrounds they like to have in the new full colour books) to fit the 6th edition aesthetic which the old WD article won't.

There's a lot more work than just making up the rules and faqs. The 6th edition codices are actually exquisite compared with the majority of game rulebooks out there and are technically superior to even the Forge World ones (bar pehaps the HH books) in design effort.

That's a nice point, by making this a digital release for ereaders/tablets they pretty much have to change things to make them work better in a digital format. And since they're going through that effort why not slap some other changes in there?

Poseidal
25-09-2013, 15:13
That's a nice point, by making this a digital release for ereaders/tablets they pretty much have to change things to make them work better in a digital format. And since they're going through that effort why not slap some other changes in there?

You even have to change it for 'just' a physical release! Without going into the differences of the unit entries (1 page per main unit type, army list), even something as trivial as changing the typeface will completely change how the text fits and will often require a re-work, especially as they're going from an Airport Signage type* to actual for-purpose Book type.

*This was the case in the old 5th edition books at least, not sure about White Dwarf though.

Guyver 3
25-09-2013, 15:27
This is based on the assuption that they are going to bother to change the asthetic to match 6th ed,
much more likely that they will just take an existing imperial one and copy the sisters stuff into it, i'm not saying they will get some inexperianced pion to do it but anyone with experiance knocks this kind of stuff up all the time, it really isn't rocket science.

All i'm saying is that this wont be the brand new sisters codex you've been waiting for.

Shibboleth
25-09-2013, 15:53
It's an updated 6th edition Sister's list. Who cares whether they sweated over it for a day or a month, it will get people through until the real one comes.

Zion
25-09-2013, 15:54
This is based on the assuption that they are going to bother to change the asthetic to match 6th ed,
much more likely that they will just take an existing imperial one and copy the sisters stuff into it, i'm not saying they will get some inexperianced pion to do it but anyone with experiance knocks this kind of stuff up all the time, it really isn't rocket science.

All i'm saying is that this wont be the brand new sisters codex you've been waiting for.

I don't think any of us think it'll be brand new, I'm pretty sure we're just hoping the tweak the current one a bit to fit into 6th better.

Theocracity
25-09-2013, 16:16
I'm confident there will be no new units and prepared for the eventuality that it won't have significant rebalancing - but I'm hopeful it will. If nothing else new warlord traits or artifacts would be neat to see.

I'm optimistic but prepared to be underwhelmed, just in case :).

deathrain-commander
25-09-2013, 17:03
Honestly, while Sisters are in desperate need of an update, I think some basic tweaks (cheapening a few things, making Faith stack with points level) could definitely hold them over until a full book update.

But honestly, even if this is just a 20 dollar PDF of the WD codex, I'll probably buy it just to show support for the Sisters. I definitely want to remind them that people still love the Sisters so they won't get abandoned/rolled into IG.

Asher
25-09-2013, 18:38
I'm more interested in the codex BA which will also be released. Wonder what kind of updates they will get and if there will be crossreferences or cut&paste from the Marine dex as well?

Latro_
25-09-2013, 19:39
Honestly, while Sisters are in desperate need of an update, I think some basic tweaks (cheapening a few things, making Faith stack with points level) could definitely hold them over until a full book update.

But honestly, even if this is just a 20 dollar PDF of the WD codex, I'll probably buy it just to show support for the Sisters. I definitely want to remind them that people still love the Sisters so they won't get abandoned/rolled into IG.

cunning idea, you should start an online petition thing 'lets buy the sob book' thing to convince gw they are worht it, they'll prob ignore the sales figures but meh worth a go

Zion
25-09-2013, 20:19
cunning idea, you should start an online petition thing 'lets buy the sob book' thing to convince gw they are worht it, they'll prob ignore the sales figures but meh worth a go

I'd say about the only thing GW actually will pay attention to 100% of the time is sales figures.

Latro_
25-09-2013, 23:40
I'd say about the only thing GW actually will pay attention to 100% of the time is sales figures.

SoB players should unite then and organise a jolly good church fundraiser :D

Zion
26-09-2013, 00:01
SoB players should unite then and organise a jolly good church fundraiser :D

I've got 3.5k in models at the moment, not too much else for me to really buy unless I start getting into double FOC and most of a t was direct from GW or FW.

Latro_
26-09-2013, 00:30
I assumed mass buying of the digital codex might be enough, ofc... GW'd cotton on fast this wasent reflected in mdoel sales :D

Nehemiah
26-09-2013, 00:55
It's an updated 6th edition Sister's list. Who cares whether they sweated over it for a day or a month, it will get people through until the real one comes.


Sorry to be cynical but was that not the point of the White Dwarf Codex?

Not to mention this leaves out all Sisters of Battle players who do not have an I-Pod or other tablet with an updated rule book they cannot buy.

Voss
26-09-2013, 01:04
SoB players should unite then and organise a jolly good church fundraiser :D
Tea and cake or death?

stevegill
26-09-2013, 01:04
Odd, because as far as I know they're still for sale. In fact, I just looked and I think we just got a model back (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat660008a&prodId=prod1300029a):

178851

I don't recall seeing her for a while at least.

I thought she'd been around for a while now, since all the old Superiors came back (but could be wrong). The most obvious issue currently is the lack of Seraphim Superiors.


I've got 3.5k in models at the moment, not too much else for me to really buy unless I start getting into double FOC and most of a t was direct from GW or FW.

I think that's a fairly good example of Sisters players right there, there's far fewer of us than players of the other forces but with quite large collections each.

(it's hauntingly familiar - just like DE were before the restart but this time I really do like the current modes and don't want to replace them all with a new look force)

MajorWesJanson
26-09-2013, 01:08
Sorry to be cynical but was that not the point of the White Dwarf Codex?

The point of the WD Sisters codex was half to update sisters to be playable in 5th, and half to simply remove the 3rd edition Witchhunters codex from circulation, especially after the GK book came out.

Commissar Merces
26-09-2013, 02:27
I can confirm that the picture of the SoB downloadable book is legit, based on a conversation with someone in the know (not a shop manager)

However, I caution EVERYONE. This is probably a reprint with the updated FAQs and a warlord traits table. Do not expect anymore than that. The white dwarf does not hint at or provide any further insight.

IcedAnimals
26-09-2013, 02:31
Sorry to be cynical but was that not the point of the White Dwarf Codex?

Not to mention this leaves out all Sisters of Battle players who do not have an I-Pod or other tablet with an updated rule book they cannot buy.

The last few releases have had PC capable PDFs. So if you can type on these forums you can get the update. On the note of showing support, I will be buying two copies. One on my PC and one on my phone. Just to show support for my sisters. However GW needs to get models out soon or raging heroes is going to take more of my money once their own sisters line is released.

Nehemiah
26-09-2013, 02:32
The point of the WD Sisters codex was half to update sisters to be playable in 5th, and half to simply remove the 3rd edition Witchhunters codex from circulation, especially after the GK book came out.

This does not make me feel any more hopeful for this 'update'.

Treadhead_1st
26-09-2013, 02:47
The last few releases have had PC capable PDFs. So if you can type on these forums you can get the update.

They have? Cool - I was also really worried that the update would be in some way significant (the Warlord Chart could probably be ignored, but if they introduce wargear [relics] and/or change points-costs) I would be well annoyed - owning neither an i-device nor an any sort of e-reader. I have pretty much been ignoring anything with "digital" in its name so I did not realise there were non-e-reader PDF files available.

Nehemiah
26-09-2013, 03:22
The last few releases have had PC capable PDFs. So if you can type on these forums you can get the update. On the note of showing support, I will be buying two copies. One on my PC and one on my phone. Just to show support for my sisters. However GW needs to get models out soon or raging heroes is going to take more of my money once their own sisters line is released.

But I do not type on this forum. I have a well trained helper monkey, and I do not trust him with my credit card.

Polaria
26-09-2013, 06:53
The last few releases have had PC capable PDFs. So if you can type on these forums you can get the update. On the note of showing support, I will be buying two copies. One on my PC and one on my phone. Just to show support for my sisters. However GW needs to get models out soon or raging heroes is going to take more of my money once their own sisters line is released.


They have? Cool - I was also really worried that the update would be in some way significant (the Warlord Chart could probably be ignored, but if they introduce wargear [relics] and/or change points-costs) I would be well annoyed - owning neither an i-device nor an any sort of e-reader. I have pretty much been ignoring anything with "digital" in its name so I did not realise there were non-e-reader PDF files available.

The non-apple version is not PDF, but eBook. Which means you have to have a ebook reader app on your phone/tablet/computer to view it... But as ebook viewers are available free for pretty much any operating system (Android, Windows, even Linux desktops...) the end result is the same. I don't own a single apple-device and since Farsight Enclaves I've downloaded all the new codices into my phone.

Krieg Marshall
26-09-2013, 07:23
According to White Dwarf daily here is the october issue content

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/wnt/blog.jsp?pid=11100018

There is no mention of anything related to SOB. In my opinion if games workshop was about to release an updated SOB army list in White Dwarf they've mentionned it eaven though they don't consider it as important (I'm sorry for this one) as other 40k armies.

Zion
26-09-2013, 07:29
According to White Dwarf daily here is the october issue content

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/wnt/blog.jsp?pid=11100018

There is no mention of anything related to SOB. In my opinion if games workshop was about to release an updated SOB army list in White Dwarf they've mentionned it eaven though they don't consider it as important (I'm sorry for this one) as other 40k armies.

No mention of Dark Elves either.

Seriously, GW doesn't officially announce releases until the Saturday the WD is released, no sooner. This isn't proof of anything.

Krieg Marshall
26-09-2013, 10:23
No mention of Dark Elves either.

Seriously, GW doesn't officially announce releases until the Saturday the WD is released, no sooner. This isn't proof of anything.

I completly agree, but a video teaser has been released on 23rd about the Dark Elves release (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/wnt/blog.jsp?pid=11100002-gws) which isn't the case of SOD... This will certainly not convince you but it doesn't seems likely that games workshop doesn't make any annoucement about an SOB army update, just in order to satify his customers, it would be counter productive don't you think?

BTJ
26-09-2013, 11:22
Why would it be counter-productive? It's literally just an update, it's not a whole new codex or anything. It's probably just this month's supplement slot

duffybear1988
26-09-2013, 12:38
See I think this could be the death of SoB. If all this is is a copy of the WD codex with the FAQ entries added in and a warlord table then that warlord table had better be badass to justify buying it. Following normal GW practices when it comes to SoB it will no doubt be terrible though, and for the stupid price they will charge I can't see it selling particularly well. My reasoning is that most SoB players already have the army list and the FAQ, they already have the models, and new/wannabe SoB players are holding off from buying anything and praying for plastics. I can see GW axing them if people don't buy this digital codex. Then again even if all the die hard sisters fan buy it the sales aren't going to be that huge, not unless they start putting something more worthwhile than a random page of warlord traits in. The problem then is what to do? Do we blow cash on a product we already have in the vain hope of getting a proper update before 10th edition drops? Give up?

A.T.
26-09-2013, 13:00
The problem then is what to do? Do we blow cash on a product we already have in the vain hope of getting a proper update before 10th edition drops? Give up?Hop over to the rules development forum and pick up one of the many sisters fandexes :p

Haravikk
26-09-2013, 13:00
This is probably a reprint with the updated FAQs and a warlord traits table. Do not expect anymore than that. The white dwarf does not hint at or provide any further insight.
If they go to the trouble of adding a Warlord traits table then they may as well update points costs for things; if they do that then it would go a long way to make a lot more of the units at least semi-viable. 12 points per model for battle sisters isn't that bad, it's the cost of adding upgrades that really cripples them. Same issue with the over-priced Immolator and… well, just generally over-priced everything. It'd take someone 10 minutes to tweak all of the prices to at least match Codex: Space Marines, which would make the list a lot more playable, though ideally some of the upgrades should be slightly cheaper still, melee weapons specifically as Sisters suck in combat so it's not like you're getting the same value out of those weapons.

So while it'd be a stretch to expect all new rules or anything, they should at least fix some of the points costs in line with other 6th codexes, and integrate the FAQ changes.

Zion
26-09-2013, 13:56
I completly agree, but a video teaser has been released on 23rd about the Dark Elves release (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/wnt/blog.jsp?pid=11100002-gws) which isn't the case of SOD... This will certainly not convince you but it doesn't seems likely that games workshop doesn't make any annoucement about an SOB army update, just in order to satify his customers, it would be counter productive don't you think?

Last time GW put Sisters into a WD we didn't get any kind of announcement, so why would this be different exactly?

Guyver 3
26-09-2013, 14:11
The big problem for sisters future is that this e-dex really only appeals to existing sisters players who already have all the models, i don't think it will introduce new players to them simply because of the ridiculous cost of a sisters army at the moment, i just don't see it selling very well.

thats not to say if gw released an awesome new plastic army it wouldnt sell very well i'm sure it would.

Zion
26-09-2013, 14:19
The big problem for sisters future is that this e-dex really only appeals to existing sisters players who already have all the models, i don't think it will introduce new players to them simply because of the ridiculous cost of a sisters army at the moment, i just don't see it selling very well.

thats not to say if gw released an awesome new plastic army it wouldnt sell very well i'm sure it would.

Well compare that to now. How many codexes are they selling exactly again? Any sales spike on this can only be a good thing.

stevegill
26-09-2013, 14:22
The big problem for sisters future is that this e-dex really only appeals to existing sisters players who already have all the models, i don't think it will introduce new players to them simply because of the ridiculous cost of a sisters army at the moment, i just don't see it selling very well.

thats not to say if gw released an awesome new plastic army it wouldnt sell very well i'm sure it would.

But it may encourage a few people to try Sisters in 6th using "counts-as" models, it's not hard to simulate a Sisters force using IG or SM models, and there's probably a lot of people who have a few Sisters models lying around.

MajorWesJanson
26-09-2013, 15:39
While Sisters do have a model range, it probably sees some lost sales by the simple fact that the army has a section of the website, and models, but no form of rules available at all. A new player may like the kits, but see there is no way to play the army that they know of, so lost sales while attempting to clear out the current stock of metal models.

Given that W is going to release the WD dex, but in a different format, may as well update a few things since they will have to re-write/format the entire thing anyways. Updating all the vehicles and weapons to use the modern form of entries and USRs is a few hours work at most, and adding Warlord Traits which honestly have a marginal effect on codex balance can be done with little or no need to playtest. Again a few hours work, when it will take at least that long to reformat the codex for digital format.

I don't expect any point changes or significant rules changes. What will likely happen is the addition of more photographs of models and artwork from previous sisters books to pad out the codex. And a very off chance that some more fluff is re-included from the previous Sisters/Witchhunters codex, again to pad the length out.

Kore5022
26-09-2013, 16:46
I can 100% confirm it is real (have read the WD), it has no info beside the small picture you've all seen though.
It may just be a 30min job with some pictures and some warlord traits and that's all i want at this stage tbh, if they try to do small re-balances points wise it could just make the book even worse as it would be a rush job with no effort put in and i can imagine first on their hit lists are special characters to go up in points as there quite appealing as allies and i can see death cult assassins getting changed to 'two power swords' in line with the GW model and for me these two things wouldn't be offset by 1pt cheaper sisters for example.

Zion
26-09-2013, 16:50
I can 100% confirm it is real (have read the WD), it has no info beside the small picture you've all seen though.
It may just be a 30min job with some pictures and some warlord traits and that's all i want at this stage tbh, if they try to do small re-balances points wise it could just make the book even worse as it would be a rush job with no effort put in and i can imagine first on their hit lists are special characters to go up in points as there quite appealing as allies and i can see death cult assassins getting changed to 'two power swords' in line with the GW model and for me these two things wouldn't be offset by 1pt cheaper sisters for example.

Celestine, Jacobus and Kyrinov all deserve a points increase honestly so that's not really an issue. And 11 point Sisters would at least put them 2 points cheaper than CSM. I really want 10 point Sisters. Sure that puts them at the same level as Templar Neophytes but the trade off isn't THAT bad as we get PA over their scout armor.

EDIT: And DCA are a bit of a mess right now. They lack grenades, and an assault transport so it's not like people are playing them half as much as they used too.

DoctorTom
26-09-2013, 21:04
According to White Dwarf daily here is the october issue content

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/wnt/blog.jsp?pid=11100018

There is no mention of anything related to SOB. In my opinion if games workshop was about to release an updated SOB army list in White Dwarf they've mentionned it eaven though they don't consider it as important (I'm sorry for this one) as other 40k armies.

Since it's not an article but a little blurb as part of their new release bit, they won't mention it. I don't recall the White Dwarf Daily mentioning other digital releases being covered in White Dwarf magazine - WDD only mentions it when they're actually released. The Sisters Codex is just a small part of the new releases section, not an article by itself, so there's no need for them to mention it.

Wesser
26-09-2013, 21:19
The big problem for sisters future is that this e-dex really only appeals to existing sisters players who already have all the models, i don't think it will introduce new players to them simply because of the ridiculous cost of a sisters army at the moment, i just don't see it selling very well.

thats not to say if gw released an awesome new plastic army it wouldnt sell very well i'm sure it would.

Never actually seen a Sisters Army here in Denmark.

And frankly the new SM codex seems a pretty flexible thing... I'm sure it's possible to proxy an entire Sisters army except for flaggies and inquisitors.

Personally I'm glad those people WHO are fans of the army gets a Little love in WD, even if I'm surprised that WD should actually be doing hobby-related stuff these days...BUT, if working on sisters actually had pushed say Orks, tyranids or fantasy back for even one month, then it would totally not have been worth it.

It's not that I hate Sisters, absolutely not, but uhm... but couldnt they be in some other game system?

Theocracity
26-09-2013, 21:38
Never actually seen a Sisters Army here in Denmark.

And frankly the new SM codex seems a pretty flexible thing... I'm sure it's possible to proxy an entire Sisters army except for flaggies and inquisitors.

It's pretty obvious that you haven't had any experience with Sisters if you think that Space Marines would make a good proxy for them.


Personally I'm glad those people WHO are fans of the army gets a Little love in WD, even if I'm surprised that WD should actually be doing hobby-related stuff these days...BUT, if working on sisters actually had pushed say Orks, tyranids or fantasy back for even one month, then it would totally not have been worth it.

Releases are scheduled based on model production, not print assets. No new models means no schedule changes. You might as well say that supplements push back army releases, which is clearly false.


It's not that I hate Sisters, absolutely not, but uhm... but couldnt they be in some other game system?

I don't even play Sisters and I consider that comment incredibly frustrating.

Zion
26-09-2013, 21:42
Never actually seen a Sisters Army here in Denmark.

And frankly the new SM codex seems a pretty flexible thing... I'm sure it's possible to proxy an entire Sisters army except for flaggies and inquisitors.

Which explains why you think they still have Inquisitors. :P


Personally I'm glad those people WHO are fans of the army gets a Little love in WD, even if I'm surprised that WD should actually be doing hobby-related stuff these days...BUT, if working on sisters actually had pushed say Orks, tyranids or fantasy back for even one month, then it would totally not have been worth it.

It's not that I hate Sisters, absolutely not, but uhm... but couldnt they be in some other game system?

With how long the dev cycles are on things (roughly 18+ months is the number I've heard before) it's doubtful that this did much to bump anyone else back any. If anything this was something done on the side, or was already being worked on and they finally reached the point where they decided to make it a digital release.

And if you think Sisters need to go to some other setting you might want to spend some time reading about them so you can see why they're tied so heavily the Imperium. They belong in 40k just as much as Marines and Guard.

A.T.
26-09-2013, 22:29
It's pretty obvious that you haven't had any experience with Sisters if you think that Space Marines would make a good proxy for them.Some SoB units are so overcosted that you might as well be proxying marines - you are already paying for them after all.

Wesser
26-09-2013, 22:30
It's pretty obvious that you haven't had any experience with Sisters if you think that Space Marines would make a good proxy for them.

Releases are scheduled based on model production, not print assets. No new models means no schedule changes. You might as well say that supplements push back army releases, which is clearly false.



Hah. I'm stating an opinion (although maybe putting it in the wrong place on the forum), you're offering speculation. What did you say was clear?

I remember browsing the Whole last official codex sisters got and thinking "Why did we need this?". What possible role do they fulfill in the game or the fluff that we couldnt draft in some Space marines to do better?

I mean the Ecclesiarch thing about "No man under arms" justifying the existence of the Whole use of Sisters of Battle have to be the worst fluff I ever read...

Zion
26-09-2013, 22:37
I mean the Ecclesiarch thing about "No man under arms" justifying the existence of the Whole use of Sisters of Battle have to be the worst fluff I ever read...

You never read some of the really bad stuff out there then. ;)

Wesser
26-09-2013, 22:53
You never read some of the really bad stuff out there then. ;)

All opinions aside. Please name me your favourites. If you got worse I'm a bit curious

A.T.
26-09-2013, 23:01
What possible do they fulfill in the game or the fluff that we couldnt draft in some Space marines to do better?The Ecclesiarchy and general religious lunacy are one of the core aspects of 40k humanity, and the sisters are the most developed part of this extremely underdeveloped part of the universe, from game terms at least.

The sisters have roughly a third of a codex at this point, with no way of fielding the fanatical forces of the frateris militia nor much in the way of the ecclesiarchal-themed artefacts or units that would help make them distinct from the astartes.

They've also suffered somewhat from having marines and other factions encroaching on areas that were once the sisters strengths, from simple cost balance (you originally got three sisters for every two marines) to special rules such as divine guidance which was taken from the sisters in the WD codex and shortly after reappeared in the eldar book. Even the arcos have gone from elite high cost assault units to a sideshow in the GK book.

As a faction they have a lot of potential, but they are poor because they have been poorly handled.

breadbin
26-09-2013, 23:03
I mean the Ecclesiarch thing about "No man under arms" justifying the existence of the Whole use of Sisters of Battle have to be the worst fluff I ever read...

The Sisters serve as the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Hereticus. Their zelous and penitent nature make them an ideal force to fight mutants, heretics and witches (where Space Marines would be overkill and the Guard... well, useless).

Fluff wise they represent the crazy cult that the imperium has become. Also remember that background wise, you can’t just “draft in some Space Marines” as there simply isn’t enough of them around.

Zion
26-09-2013, 23:04
All opinions aside. Please name me your favourites. If you got worse I'm a bit curious

General rule of thumb is C.S. Goto is pretty much the bottom of the barrel (back flipping terminators, an almost abusive love of multi-lasers, inconsistancy of what vehicle something is from one page to the next). There is also a little novel called Space Marine (http://www.blacklibrary.com/warhammer-40000/Space-Marine.html), a book so out there that the Black Library has this to say on the description page:


Believe us when we tell you that Space Marine is quite unlike any other Warhammer 40,000 novel you’ve ever read.

First published in 1993 – though completed some years earlier – at a time when the background to the Warhammer 40,000 universe was still in a state of flux and not yet fully coalesced, the book follows three young Imperial Fist recruits from their formative years in the underhive gangs of Necromunda through to fighting as part of the First Company within the bowels (literally!) of a Tyranid bioship.

Not only will you find squats in this novel –Tzeentch-worshiping squats at that – but also Space Marines controlling Titans, Space Marines with lasguns, the Pain Glove and more than a small amount of toilet humour. Oh, and a Zoat. How could we forget the Zoat?

Although the temptation was great to rewrite significant portions of this book to make it conform to current background, as a curiosity piece, an historical snapshot of the Warhammer 40,000 universe circa the early 1990s, this book is invaluable. It also serves as a shining example of what can happen when a respected genre author at the height of his powers is let loose on an established shared universe.

Oh, and James Swallow's Blood Angels series is pretty darned silly.

In the context of the universe the loophole used to justify keeping the Sisters makes sense, and had repercussions that lead to the Sisters being watched by the Inquisition pretty closely so it's not like nothing negative happened out of it. And keeping the Sisters has been more of a boon to the Imperium and the Ordos Hereticus than killing them off would have.

EDIT:

The Sisters serve as the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Hereticus. Their zelous and penitent nature make them an ideal force to fight mutants, heretics and witches (where Space Marines would be overkill and the Guard... well, useless).

Fluff wise they represent the crazy cult that the imperium has become. Also remember that background wise, you can’t just “draft in some Space Marines” as there simply isn’t enough of them around.

That's all sorts of wrong there breadbin. Sisters are the militant arm of the Ecclesiarchy. And while they work with the Ordos Hereticus, they don't belong to nor answer to them normally and only work for them as needed.

breadbin
26-09-2013, 23:17
That's all sorts of wrong there breadbin. Sisters are the militant arm of the Ecclesiarchy. And while they work with the Ordos Hereticus, they don't belong to nor answer to them normally and only work for them as needed.

I stand corrected. The internet lied to me again. I wonder then why the Ordo Xenos and Ordo Malleus get their own Chamber Millitant, but Ordo Hereticus don't, and have to borrow from the Ecclesiarchy. Maybe it's cause they're a bunch of moody, crazed, witch-burning psychopaths and can't be trusted with their own army.

Zion
26-09-2013, 23:19
I stand corrected. The internet lied to me again. I wonder then why the Ordo Xenos and Ordo Malleus get their own Chamber Millitant, but Ordo Hereticus don't, and have to borrow from the Ecclesiarchy. Maybe it's cause they're a bunch of moody, crazed, witch-burning psychopaths and can't be trusted with their own army.

Or because they do more internal policing and recruit people as needed, like Arbites, Guardsmen and so on. Dark Heresy is a great example of how the Ordos Hereticus basically handles things: using teams not armies.

When they need armies (mass purgings and so on) then they grab the Sisters for most of them, which usually pairs well with the Sister's duties to root out and deal with Heresy.

Kolvin
26-09-2013, 23:27
That all being said I play Sisters of Battle and a bit of support is well received but I'd love some new models....I mean really LOVE new models.

breadbin
26-09-2013, 23:30
Or because they do more internal policing and recruit people as needed, like Arbites, Guardsmen and so on. Dark Heresy is a great example of how the Ordos Hereticus basically handles things: using teams not armies.

When they need armies (mass purgings and so on) then they grab the Sisters for most of them, which usually pairs well with the Sister's duties to root out and deal with Heresy.

Makes sense, cheers for the info! I've been contemplating picking up the 2nd edition of Dark Heresy once it's out, purely for the background material and artwork. Might order the first edition for the time being based on your recommendation. Best leave the discussion at that before the Ordo Warseer shuts this thread down for non-conformity to the rumour rules.

Santtu
27-09-2013, 00:14
I stand corrected. The internet lied to me again. I wonder then why the Ordo Xenos and Ordo Malleus get their own Chamber Millitant, but Ordo Hereticus don't, and have to borrow from the Ecclesiarchy. Maybe it's cause they're a bunch of moody, crazed, witch-burning psychopaths and can't be trusted with their own army.
They at least used to be the Chamber Militant of Ordo Hereticus in the old codex.

Zion
27-09-2013, 00:27
They at least used to be the Chamber Militant of Ordo Hereticus in the old codex.

Yeah, but they belonged completely to the Ecclesiarchy, there was just a deal that they'd help the Ordo Hereticus when asked.

Necrosis
27-09-2013, 00:43
They at least used to be the Chamber Militant of Ordo Hereticus in the old codex.

According to the 6th edition rulebook they still are.

Zion
27-09-2013, 00:50
According to the 6th edition rulebook they still are.

But it's not in the current codex.

The Dude
27-09-2013, 00:57
This discussion is far too focussed on background, which we have a whole sub-forum for. Please take discussion there and leave this thread for rumour of the new digital publication.

The Dude
The Warseer Inquisition

Zion
27-09-2013, 03:59
So claims have been popping up on Bolter and Chainsword as well as Dakka that this is indeed a real release. Question is, what's actually in it I guess. I'm hoping we get a free preview copy on iTunes pre-launch so we can see what they're giving us.

SpawnOfChaos
27-09-2013, 05:08
Just picked up my White Dwarf and the only info it gives is that it is updated for sixth edition. It says there will be warlord traits but the key word is updated. Not a new codex, just a couple of tweaks.

Furthermore, a digital codex for Blood Angels is also being released, and it seems to be getting a lot more love than SoB (360 degree gallery, auto updating for FAQs). So doubtful about anything new being released.

The Dude
27-09-2013, 05:25
Furthermore, a digital codex for Blood Angels is also being released, and it seems to be getting a lot more love than SoB (360 degree gallery, auto updating for FAQs). So doubtful about anything new being released.

If anything, that's an indication Sisters will get a new Dex before Blood Angels do.

Voss
27-09-2013, 05:31
So claims have been popping up on Bolter and Chainsword as well as Dakka that this is indeed a real release. Question is, what's actually in it I guess. I'm hoping we get a free preview copy on iTunes pre-launch so we can see what they're giving us.
I'll be surprised if it is anything other than the WD dex finally making its way into print with a warlord table thrown in.

duffybear1988
27-09-2013, 09:03
So it's gonna be a cut and paste from WD with a warlord table thrown in? And just how much is this tome going to cost? 10-15 probably...

stevegill
27-09-2013, 09:33
So it's gonna be a cut and paste from WD with a warlord table thrown in? And just how much is this tome going to cost? 10-15 probably...

Does anyone know if it's digital only or will there be a printed version?

A.T.
27-09-2013, 09:44
Does anyone know if it's digital only or will there be a printed version?Just a digital version as far as anyone knows.

It doesn't mean anything, GW just has some guy churning them out - I mean you can buy an ebook about boltguns, or centurions, or bomb squigs...

Zion
27-09-2013, 14:23
Just a digital version as far as anyone knows.

It doesn't mean anything, GW just has some guy churning them out - I mean you can buy an ebook about boltguns, or centurions, or bomb squigs...

Those tacticas and Munititorum things aren't quite the same as converting the WD into a digital codex.

Zion
27-09-2013, 18:39
Evidence of this thing being real (a picture of the WD page) is now live over on Talk Wargaming.

daemonish
27-09-2013, 21:55
Reading the blurb on the white dwarf page its a shame that the BA has no warlord traits added in. I was hopeful that all the updated codex's would have new warlord traits for previous released armies.

MajorWesJanson
28-09-2013, 01:59
BA are not getting warlord traits since it is a full, functioning codex being converted to digital format.
Sisters are a short WD dex, for them there is really no reason not to add warlord traits. It lets them test it out, and makes for a selling point for sisters players (besides the fact that it will be updated with the new format profiles and names for USRs, and any FAQ/errata included already) who already own the WD version.

SpawnOfChaos
28-09-2013, 07:17
If anything, that's an indication Sisters will get a new Dex before Blood Angels do.

Or it just implies that GW don't give a **** about SoB, but just want an excuse to shift old metal stock.

Voss
28-09-2013, 07:21
Or it just implies that GW don't give a **** about SoB, but just want an excuse to shift old metal stock.

Eh. Finally having the army list available for people might generate some sales, and persuade GW that a proper book and plastic range is actually worth doing. If they continue in their current limbo, the army doesn't have much of a chance at all.

IcedAnimals
28-09-2013, 19:47
So claims have been popping up on Bolter and Chainsword as well as Dakka that this is indeed a real release. Question is, what's actually in it I guess. I'm hoping we get a free preview copy on iTunes pre-launch so we can see what they're giving us.

Are these claims coming from well known sources? And I would agree with The Dude if there were warlord traits being added into the blood angel version.

Also, does anyone have a "date" for this one? I am not totally familiar with GWs release schedule for digital products.

Spider-pope
29-09-2013, 09:30
Are these claims coming from well known sources? And I would agree with The Dude if there were warlord traits being added into the blood angel version.

Also, does anyone have a "date" for this one? I am not totally familiar with GWs release schedule for digital products.

No date for it's release is given in White Dwarf, so your guess is as good as anyones at the moment.

Zion
29-09-2013, 20:54
Are these claims coming from well known sources? And I would agree with The Dude if there were warlord traits being added into the blood angel version.

Also, does anyone have a "date" for this one? I am not totally familiar with GWs release schedule for digital products.

I've got a picture of a hard copy of the page in question over on Talkwargaming. It's real.

We also have word now from Games Day that Cruddace has essentially said that the Warlord traits are new, there were some minor point tweaks and they looked into making the Acts of Faith scale with the army size.

Mage
29-09-2013, 22:43
Nice that the sisters are getting that little tweaking so. Sign they are still being playtested.

As for the Warlords with Blood Angels, I get it. If they did have them on the iWhatever version, then the hardcopies we all have would be defunct, which would be idiotic to say the least.

Maxis Lithium
30-09-2013, 08:03
I hope they are play testing and ensuring balance and quality right up to the last possible moment.
Not that we as a community won't find any and all minor errors they made within an hour of the book's release.

One major benifit to digital releases before hard-copy releases is that they can make any changes to the text needed after the document is out to the public, and then incorporate those corrections in to the hard copy later.

A.T.
30-09-2013, 09:40
Nice that the sisters are getting that little tweaking so. Sign they are still being playtested.It's about time, they certainly weren't playtested the first time around.

Now they just need another 25-30 units.

MajorWesJanson
30-09-2013, 12:39
It's about time, they certainly weren't playtested the first time around.

Now they just need another 25-30 units.

Not that many, but 1-2 more for most slots, and say 3-5 more SCs. Add more ecclesiarchy stuff- add Frateris Militia as cheap cannon fodder troops like CSM cultists. More Arcoflagellants. Mobile shrine (combo kit with Exorcist?) Sisters on bikes (based on SM scout bikes?) Flier encrusted with gothic elements (like the Dark Talon but without the giant DA symbols on the wings). Sister of Silence as a single model elite choice character.

Haravikk
30-09-2013, 13:21
I'll be surprised if it is anything other than the WD dex finally making its way into print with a warlord table thrown in.
Again I hope not; it takes longer to come up with a decent warlord traits table than it would to skim through the list and fix points costs to match Codex: Space Marines at the very least. If they're updating them for 6th edition, then that's a perfectly reasonable thing to do as otherwise the army is still completely unplayable. Doesn't need new rules, other than tweaking to use 6th edition universal rules where appropriate, ditch some that are obsolete (Seraphim Pistols for example), but points tweaks are a must as the Immolator is far too expensive, and a kitted out sisters unit is horrible. The current White Dwarf codex seemed to hit at that sweet point right after Heavy Flamers leaped up in points (becoming Assault 1) but before every codex release afterwards bumped them back down again.

Yes some of the units need more work than just points changes, but considering battle sisters are only choice for Troops we really need to be able to afford their upgrades to equip them properly, otherwise the entire list is still pointless. I mean even when the White Dwarf codex came out it was uncompetitive!

The Dude
30-09-2013, 14:04
Not that many, but 1-2 more for most slots, and say 3-5 more SCs. Add more ecclesiarchy stuff- add Frateris Militia as cheap cannon fodder troops like CSM cultists. More Arcoflagellants. Mobile shrine (combo kit with Exorcist?) Sisters on bikes (based on SM scout bikes?) Flier encrusted with gothic elements (like the Dark Talon but without the giant DA symbols on the wings). Sister of Silence as a single model elite choice character.

What's wrong with this post, do you think ;)

Take the wishlisting to 40K General please.

The Dude
The Warseer Inquisition

A.T.
30-09-2013, 14:14
The current White Dwarf codex seemed to hit at that sweet point right after Heavy Flamers leaped up in points (becoming Assault 1) but before every codex release afterwards bumped them back down again.They were always Assault 1.



I mean even when the White Dwarf codex came out it was uncompetitive!There was a quote from GW about how they had been thanked for the great WD dex, i'd always wondered if they were taking the Michael until I read a few posts on B&C and discovered that the WD sisters were actually a nigh unbeatable force that won games through overwhelming numbers, lethal assaults, and powerful long ranged weaponry.

And yet you seem to have the same half-baked WD codex that I do... did they release a different set of rules in the US or something ? :p

Darnok
30-09-2013, 14:33
Re-releasing the WD codex in digital form, with adjusted point costs and some new elements is a good thing in my opinion. Gamers get an update, and GW can playtest some tweaks using the worldwide community. In the end it might lead to some solid rules once the actual codex hits.

Given their current state, the Sisters need a DE level of reboot. Anything that can help with the rules is a step in the right direction. And I think this digital pre-codex is such a right step.

Haravikk
30-09-2013, 16:45
They were always Assault 1.
Hmm, you're right, somehow I got it in my head they must have actually been Heavy weapons at some point and that explained the huge points cost leap that Heavy Flamers took. In that case when and why did that actually happen? I didn't play much of 3rd edition, but my Codex: Witch Hunters has Heavy Flamers at nearly half the cost they are now (for sisters). Even so, marines now have them for less again, with a much cheaper Immolator of their own; hell pretty much everything in Codex: Space Marines costs less, which is pretty shocking as when the Sisters list came out they had to have had some idea that this was going to happen. The cost of Repentia and Penitent Engines made a lot more sense once Rage was updated for example, which felt planned though it could have been pure coincidence.


And yet you seem to have the same half-baked WD codex that I do... did they release a different set of rules in the US or something ? :p
There are elements of the list that are powerful; Seraphim are pretty good and Saint Celestine is great (though IMO not over-powered like some think, especially compared to marine characters that give significant army upgrades). But most of the best stuff aren't really sisters at all; although Repentia got a lot better once Rage came around they're still not amazing, meanwhile Penitent Engines are actually really good for the points now if you can give up that Heavy Support slot, especially with new Rage (the old Rage was a joke, even in the White Dwarf's battle report the Penitent Engine was led around by a single model for the entire game). The real champions of the list are a mixed Death Cult Assassins with some Crusaders Battle Conclave led by Uriah Jacobus; 5 Attacks each for the Death Cult Assassins, and at either S4 AP3 I6 or S6 AP4 I6, and with Hatred and Feel No Pain too iirc, they're absolutely insane. But as a non-scoring unit in an otherwise pretty poor list there's only so much you can do with that option.

For shooting performance Sisters aren't bad as they are, being a little cheaper than marines, but only if they're not actually shooting at marines, otherwise those guys still have the benefit of Toughness 4. This isn't helped by the fact that the Imperial Fists chapter tactic gives re-roll 1's with bolters or the Ultramarines can get that for a turn (but with Twin Linked on tacticals iirc?), and it's not like the other tactics are any worse either. So in reality their shooting is miles better now, so even the possibility of quantity of fire is no help. Light of the Emperor could have offset that but you're at the mercy of random faith point generation, plus random faith tests that practically require a costly Simulacrum Imperialis. But even if you put one of those on a 20 model battle sister squad you're suddenly at chaos marine points costs, and still might fail that faith test or not have enough faith points to use it on enough units to make a real difference. Ugh.

So yeah, I take back my comment about battle sisters being okay at 12 points if they get better option pricing; unless those options are free they really need to come down in cost per model as well.

Zion
30-09-2013, 17:00
Re-releasing the WD codex in digital form, with adjusted point costs and some new elements is a good thing in my opinion. Gamers get an update, and GW can playtest some tweaks using the worldwide community. In the end it might lead to some solid rules once the actual codex hits.

Given their current state, the Sisters need a DE level of reboot. Anything that can help with the rules is a step in the right direction. And I think this digital pre-codex is such a right step.

Agreed. I wrote them my playtesting notes from the last batch and depending on what this looks like I may do it again!

EDIT: For anyone who wonders I wrote a several page letter a few months back with a long list of notes on what was working, what wasn't and just some general ideas on things that could be fiddled with to make the stuff we've got better for now.

A.T.
30-09-2013, 17:15
In that case when and why did that actually happen?Imperial Guard codex



The cost of Repentia and Penitent Engines made a lot more sense once Rage was updated for example, which felt planned though it could have been pure coincidence.I'd guess that as being luck, and that rage was just used to replace the old rage rules. Remember that in the following WD one of the apocalypse formations allowed you to buy off the rage penalty in the repentia formation - but as of 6th edition you are paying points to nerf your own units.
(hopefully they'll remember to update those two, the other was about the single most fragile apoc formation i'd ever seen).



For shooting performance Sisters aren't bad as they are, being a little cheaper than marinesIt's a false economy, and hopefully one that will be addressed. Sisters are 14% cheaper but 33% more vulnerable to shooting - not taking into account things like chapter tactics or the cost of buying a simulacrum. And that's before you bring close combat into it.

If and how they change an e-book will give some insight into their thinking on the sisters - frankly if the core battle sisters don't change it's safe to say they simply don't get it (or don't give a damn). It's a shame how far they've fallen from 3rd edition despite being essentially the same army.

Kore5022
30-09-2013, 17:16
They were always Assault 1.


There was a quote from GW about how they had been thanked for the great WD dex, i'd always wondered if they were taking the Michael until I read a few posts on B&C and discovered that the WD sisters were actually a nigh unbeatable force that won games through overwhelming numbers, lethal assaults, and powerful long ranged weaponry.

And yet you seem to have the same half-baked WD codex that I do... did they release a different set of rules in the US or something ? :p

I know the 'meta' (hate that term) is different in every country, but when the WD codex first came out it was surprisngly strong in my local scene. There was a lot of grey night deathstars, elite blood angel armies etc that had super tough hard to kill expensive scoring units that the excorcists and jacobus/conclave would tear through without blinking much easier than a lot of the other codexes and it really took people by surprise.
Then a combination of a small amount of people learning the army plus 6th ed came along and the sisters went to the shelves lol

Zion
30-09-2013, 17:18
Yeah, we're now at the point that a base Sister needs to be 10 points or less. :/

Charistoph
30-09-2013, 21:59
If and how they change an e-book will give some insight into their thinking on the sisters...

Not necessarily. The Templars FAQs didn't really provide a focus on how they were going to set up the Tactics at all. So unless we see some major changes, I wouldn't expect this to show their hand on a full book much more than the average FAQ.

That being said, I do hope for more.

Zion
30-09-2013, 23:41
Not necessarily. The Templars FAQs didn't really provide a focus on how they were going to set up the Tactics at all. So unless we see some major changes, I wouldn't expect this to show their hand on a full book much more than the average FAQ.

That being said, I do hope for more.

This isn't really FAQs though as there is talk about more than just some Q&A adjustments going on. It may give us some insight on what GW will be doing to the core of the army (making them cheaper, or what have you).

Charistoph
30-09-2013, 23:46
This isn't really FAQs though as there is talk about more than just some Q&A adjustments going on. It may give us some insight on what GW will be doing to the core of the army (making them cheaper, or what have you).

True, I'm just being an optimistic pessimist about it. I look for the worst so that when the best happens, I am that much more grateful about the situation. I'm also warning about putting too much in to it and getting your expectations up higher than needed.

Zion
30-09-2013, 23:54
True, I'm just being an optimistic pessimist about it. I look for the worst so that when the best happens, I am that much more grateful about the situation. I'm also warning about putting too much in to it and getting your expectations up higher than needed.

As long as it doesn't arrive on fire then poop on my floor my expectations are met.

MajorWesJanson
01-10-2013, 00:10
What's wrong with this post, do you think ;)

Take the wishlisting to 40K General please.

The Dude
The Warseer Inquisition

Apologies. Multiple tabs, and the constant discussion of updating point values, I thought this was in general already. :p

Aluinn
02-10-2013, 03:44
Yeah, we're now at the point that a base Sister needs to be 10 points or less. :/

This reminds me of all those posters who were insisting adamantly that Fire Warriors were such garbage that they needed to be 6 points per model to be worth taking when people were discussing Tau codex rumors. I think the absurdity of that has been pretty well demonstrated by now.

Let me put it this way:

-A Guardsman is generally accepted to be worth 5 points
-Give him +1 BS and +1 Ld and he's worth 7 (cf Veterans)
-Give him carapace armor and he's worth 10--which may be considered too much to pay by some, but as we're talking about Sisters, pretend you're getting power armor for the same cost, and that's kind of a no-brainer upgrade
-A bolter is worth at least an additional point over a lasgun (I'd argue 2 since 6th Ed. Rapid Fire changes have rendered bolters not much worse than storm bolters, but I'll be charitable to the doubtful), so now we're at 11
-From here to reach the current cost of a Sister we're then valuing krak grenades, a bolt pistol, a 6++ save, and an Act of Faith (which costs no finite non-renewing resource now, whatever you want to say about it) at 1 point, and I think it's safe to say that's a decent deal, especially considering we've probably undervalued the upgrade to power armor above

And there you have the current cost of a Sister that so many people complain about. They're actually an excellent deal and do everything that a Marine can do most of of the time; it's not as though you're Running Tac Squads across the table to get them into combat as fast as you can. Sisters also shoot their bolters better, sometimes.

6th Ed.'s emphasis on shooting makes all the advantages Marines may have over them in close combat worth very little, and it also remains the case that a Tac Marine is offensively kinda weak in combat anyway. The only substantial disadvantages of a Sister, considering what really happens on a gaming table, are -1 Toughness and no ATSKNF, but for that you get a 2-4 point discount (depending on your Marine flavor), a generally underestimated Act of Faith, and an invulnerable save--admittedly, yes, a bad one, but combined with the fact that Sisters are the cheapest power-armor wearing things around, it renders AP3 weapons, which pay a high premium for their anti-Marine potential, not especially efficient to shoot at them.

TL;DR: Sisters are fine, rules-wise. I don't want to write an even longer post about all their supporting units and characters but suffice to say that a few are amazing, a few are pretty terrible, but most are solidly good at least, which is the best that can be said for any army list I can think of right now.

The Dude
02-10-2013, 04:03
Okay, off to 40K General with you.

If and when anything new comes up, a new thread can be started in N&R.

Thread moved.

The Dude
The Warseer Inquisition

duffybear1988
02-10-2013, 09:44
It's about time, they certainly weren't playtested the first time around.

Now they just need another 25-30 units.

Give them back frateris militia as a troops choice, break up the battle conclave and make arco flagellants a good elite choice again, make death cult assassins proper assassins with infiltrate (maybe a unit of 1-3), make crusaders a bodyguard choice for confessors (or even a purchasable upgrade like Tau drones or SW fenrisian wolves). Add in valkyries/vendettas.

Drop the points on almost everything. Go back to the previous version of acts of faith where everyone can use each one.

Job done... Somehow GW can't get that the sisters really only need a few tweaks to make them a good force.

A.T.
02-10-2013, 10:05
TL;DR: Sisters are fine, rules-wise.So I take if you've never actually played with the sisters then?



Job done...A frateris choice would have certainly helped the WD dex, or even just the warrior entry brought over with the cultists and the option to make the conclave scoring with confessors.

Too limited for an actual print codex though, there is no variety there.

duffybear1988
02-10-2013, 11:58
Too limited for an actual print codex though, there is no variety there.

This will always be the problem now because GW have gone over the top with unit creation when there was no need. Take a look at the recent armies - did we really need centurions, helldrakes, maulerfiends, riptides, wraithknights, wraith fighters, the Tau flyers, the Dark Angels ravenknights, that stupid plasma speeder etc.

It's all gone crazy, and unless sisters get a massive reboot (and I'm not sure that's a good thing anyway) then they will never have enough stuff to flesh out an entire book.

I think the major mistake GW made was creating a pure Grey Knights codex. If they had made it Inquisition, or Heroes of the Imperium it would have given them the opportunity to finally get Sisters of Battle, Grey Knights and Deathwatch all in one book alongside Inquisitors and the other smaller forces that should be represented, but don't have enough for an entire book.

Personally I dread to think what a new SoB codex would contain. GW has lost it's sparkle recently, and no amount of kiddie-fied toys are going to bring that back.

Aluinn
02-10-2013, 12:00
If I recall the addition of Focus Fire and Photons would add up to 2-3 points, bringing them down to 6-7 points. Not that crazy by a mile, dude. Granted 6 is too low, but it's not "Full Retard".

At the time I argued, and would still maintain, that photon grenades aren't worth even one point. I argued that they should be included as standard kit for no extra cost because, if presented as an option, people (well, more competitive players) would likely never take them even at 0.5 points per model (and 40K just doesn't do half-points anyway as a matter of dev policy). So I don't think that actually increases their value by even a point. (The reasoning here being that they're going to lose combat anyway, unless someone is charging them with something they shouldn't be charging them with, and a Tau player will generally want the unit to be wiped out or run down in a turn rather than hang around, so that the assaulting unit is exposed to shooting in their own turn.)

The value of Focus Fire is debatable. It's good, certainly, but conditional and possibly overrated: After all we're still talking about Snap Shots and, while they can in theory be enhanced by markerlights, it almost never happens because the markerlight effect only persists for a phase, and thus you have to hit the target being Focus Fired with a markerlight that's shooting Snap Shots itself--and Pathfinders, the main markerlight source (though marker drones are totally viable), tend to be kept far back, stationary, and in cover, and so are often not even able to contribute Focus Fire to begin with.

Personally I'd put the rule at a 1-point-per-model value, because of the above and also because it's conditional on something trying to charge them that will be significantly affected by a handful of extra S5 AP5 hits (not to mention the positioning of the FW and lots of other variables). If I'm charging them with Nurgle Spawn or something I probably don't especially care because the FW are still doomed even with massive luck, for example, and if I'm shelling them to death with Heavy Mortars it obviously matters not at all. I'm not going to charge them with T3, 5+ -or-worse-save things unless I have overwhelming numbers, Focus Fire or no, and those are the only things that Focus Fire will totally wreck, barring odd chains of lucky markerlight Snap Shots upon which a Tau player can't really rely.

So I guess I'd meet you so far as to say that maybe they are, in a way, 8 points. But then we're talking 2 points difference, which is in practice the difference between mandatory full-on spamming of them and taking a reasonable number. If they were indeed 6 (and let's be clear that people were arguing for a literal, in-print cost of 6 regardless of other rules changes), there'd be little reason for anyone playing even 1,000 point games not to take 72 all day 'erry day (at 432 total points) beyond the boredom of painting that many and/or the pecuniary cost. And that is, in your phrasing, "full r-tard".

And if we're talking some kind of theoretical, figurative points, I could argue by the same token that Sisters are actually like 10 or something, not 12, because as mentioned in my previous post they're kind of getting either a significant discount on their power armor or their grenades, pistol, 6++, and Act.

So to finish the analogy, if Sisters had everything they now have, and were in fact rather than theory 10 points per model, there'd never be any reason to have less than 60 of them in even small armies, if you consider how hard it is to deal with that many power-armored bodies and the value of that many BS4 (or "4.5", depending) bolters/heavy bolters/(heavy) flamers. You could skip the upgrades altogether for all it mattered; it would be unreasonably hard for opponents to stop you from taking objectives.

@A.T. I've played with them since Codex: Witch Hunters was printed (as an army, not as allies to another), but only have a 1.25k army because the models were a bit on the expensive side even then. If you want to know why I think they're good:

-A solid Troops choice; not underpriced, but that's not what we should be asking for--I get the feeling most people are still trying to use them in small squads in transports, but to ye I have to say--forgive me--get with 6th Ed. and drop the Rhinos
-Celestine and Jacobus, and, really, the characters in general; even the generic Confessor is beastly considering his BS5 straight-up plasma gun, eviscerator, and 4++, compared to what most T3-standard armies can field; the Canoness has a great Act to bestow on a squad and, needless to say, Stubborn is pretty good
-Battle Conclaves, particularly if you don't get obsessed with using Arcos for thematic reasons/nostalgia and rock that Crusader/DCA combo--DCA are, let's be frank here, one of the more undercosted things around, Vendettas and Fire Turkeys notwithstanding
-Exorcists
-Rending heavy bolter Retributors
-Outflanking Dominions

EDIT: I surely agree they could use more units and that some additional "pure" Ecclesiarchy-themed stuff like Frateris Militia/Zealots/whatever-they-decide-to-call-them would be very cool.

duffybear1988
02-10-2013, 12:17
If you want to know why I think they're good:

-A solid Troops choice; not underpriced, but that's not what we should be asking for--I get the feeling most people are still trying to use them in small squads in transports, but to ye I have to say--forgive me--get with 6th Ed. and drop the Rhinos
And get killed by battle cannons, helldrakes, plasma, shuriken, melta, grav, heck even bolters make a mess of T3 troops if you shoot enough. Oh and those fire warriors you claim aint so great... their S5 30" guns will tear sisters to pieces.

-Celestine and Jacobus, and, really, the characters in general; even the generic Confessor is beastly considering his BS5 straight-up plasma gun, eviscerator, and 4++, compared to what most T3-standard armies can field; the Canoness has a great Act to bestow on a squad and, needless to say, Stubborn is pretty good
I'm sorry but in what world is the canoness good? She is far too expensive for what she provides, and with the rosarius and weapons being extra nobody with any sense takes her. The same could be said for that confessor you are chirping on about - he is way overcosted, even without all that gear you have just given him. The only reason you see Celestine and Jacobus is because they are the only worthwhile units in the HQ slot.

-Battle Conclaves, particularly if you don't get obsessed with using Arcos for thematic reasons/nostalgia and rock that Crusader/DCA combo--DCA are, let's be frank here, one of the more undercosted things around, Vendettas and Fire Turkeys notwithstanding
Agreed, but without an assault transport and lacking any way to move faster they are average at best. Unfortunately that still makes them the best in the bad codex. Anyone else find it funny that the best unit in Codex Sisters of Battle isn't actually made up of SoB?

-Exorcists
Yay all those points for a random number of shots...

-Rending heavy bolter Retributors
Reasonable but not game breaking. Especially when you consider that you have to drop exorcists or penitent engines to fit them in. Plus you can always fail that faith test.

-Outflanking Dominions
In my experience is one of the worst things you can do with them. All that does is give the other player time to kill off the rest of your stuff. With no way to manipulate reserve rolls and/or table edges they could be coming in on turn 4 and doing very little. Dominions need to be threatening from the very beginning.

My response in yellow.

Aluinn
02-10-2013, 12:53
Laughable.

I respect your arguments, but there's no need for a snyde jab at the end of the post.

To your comments:

1. I never claimed Fire Warriors weren't so great. To the contrary, I claimed they were so good that they did not deserve the enormous points drop that people were asking for when rumors began circulating about the new Tau codex, and of course the new support, special rules and very minor points drop only help. I'm comparing them to Sisters because I find the arguments for a large points drop similarly misguided in Sisters' case. If someone argued for a change of some kind to Acts to make them more reliable or versatile instead of a points decrease, or something of that nature, I'd never have argued at all.

In other words, they could be slightly better, or, hopefully not to belabor the FW analogy, maybe a point cheaper, or be indirectly buffed by better synergy from the rest of the army, but I have to insist they couldn't be much cheaper and be balanced because at some point the number of bodies that you can throw down just becomes silly. Your point that they die to all that power-armor-wrecking stuff could equally be applied to Grey Hunters, by the by. (And Sisters are more resilient, if only slightly, to almost all of it than Marines, because they're all wounded on 2s by plasma, battle cannons etc. and the Sisters at least get a 6++ if they're caught in the open, not to mention obviously being cheaper and thus less devastating to lose).

2. Re. the Canoness: If you take a blob of Sisters it's very valuable to make them Stubborn and better in combat. I think they are better in blobs than most people probably do. I think you really have to look beyond the old paradigm of running around in a Rhino and getting within 8" of things on purpose (not that you necessarily do this, but again I get the feeling that a lot of people are just playing them exactly as they did in 5th, and this is part of the reason for their perceived weakness).

Re. the Confessor: Whaa? I don't want to quote points costs excessively but his Rosarius is free, his base cost is low, and he pays no more for for his 2+ -hitting plasma gun than any redshirt dudesman around, and aside from being accurate and having Precision Shots with the thing, isn't going to die from Overheat barring some insanely exceptional bad luck. A BS5 character being able to take an honest-to-goodness plasma gun is really rare for a reason. The eviscerator is expensive, sure; it also suits him perfectly (low Initiative and thus doesn't suffer from Unwieldy hardly at all; Specialist doesn't matter because plasma gun; needs the S boost etc. etc.), but you don't have to take it at any rate.

3. Re. Conclaves: I agree it is very hard to get them across the board, but: A) You can hold them back as a counter-assault unit in an otherwise shooty army; or B) you can advance with them alongside the Troops and if they take fire, well, that takes heat off your scoring units and you're getting a 3++ at least. Furthermore if even only a few DCA survive they'll still eat Tac Squads and the like because, well, their stats are dumb and they have two power weapons of your choice--and they cost no more than a Marine (well, maybe a point, depending on Marine color) themselves, so ... yeah.

4. Re. Exorcists: Well, random isn't bad. Sure, it's worse than always having the average, because reliability is good, but the fact that something has a random number of shots does not in itself make it weak. As an extreme example it could have D6 S10 AP1 shots and would be silly good but no less random.

5. Re. heavy bolter Retributors: I'm sure we agree. I only mentioned them as good, not game-breaking, but then I don't want anything in the game that is game-breaking, be it in my or anyone else's army.

6. Again, random not bad. You can get unlucky and they can come in too late, of course, but shooty Outflankers have become the most desirable sort lately, and they are that. People made use of Outflank without modifiers quite a lot in 5th because it's just a nice ability; it's only faded because a lot of the units that were doing it were assault units, but Dominions of course are not and can do their damage the turn they arrive.

A.T.
02-10-2013, 12:53
-A solid Troops choice; not underpriced, but that's not what we should be asking for--I get the feeling most people are still trying to use them in small squads in transports, but to ye I have to say--forgive me--get with 6th Ed. and drop the RhinosI simply can't agree with your assessment of the battle sisters or canoness, but then again I do recall you once called them 'one of the most resilient infantry units in the game for their cost'.

They are not a solid troops choice - the sisters have the most expensive minimum objective holding squad of any codex and the unit can contribute almost nothing at range nor resist and form of assault. As a blob they require an attached HQ to avoid being swept by the first assault unit that glances in their direction, move at a snails pace, and have no force projection beyond the range of a boltgun.

The only meaningful advantage they have over a blob of almost identically costed CSMs are their 6+ inv save. Beyond that they are a third more fragile in a firefight, less than half as effective in assault, and far more vulnerable to attacks which target stat tests. Loyalists of course have more advantages still.


I suppose if all you ever face are helldrakes and colossus mortars they are pretty good. Don't rate them myself though.



4. Re. Exorcists: Well, random isn't bad. Sure, it's worse than always having the average, because reliability is good, but the fact that something has a random number of shots does not in itself make it weak.On average it's a triple lascannon predator that can't penetrate AV14.
It's ok, but really run the numbers - it's just a more mobile and more unreliable predator at heart.

Kore5022
02-10-2013, 15:50
My response in yellow.

I agree with everything you said 100%

duffybear1988
02-10-2013, 15:53
I respect your arguments, but there's no need for a snyde jab at the end of the post.


Sorry man. Will respond to the rest of the post when I get time.

Zion
02-10-2013, 17:17
This reminds me of all those posters who were insisting adamantly that Fire Warriors were such garbage that they needed to be 6 points per model to be worth taking when people were discussing Tau codex rumors. I think the absurdity of that has been pretty well demonstrated by now.

Let me put it this way:

-A Guardsman is generally accepted to be worth 5 points
-Give him +1 BS and +1 Ld and he's worth 7 (cf Veterans)
-Give him carapace armor and he's worth 10--which may be considered too much to pay by some, but as we're talking about Sisters, pretend you're getting power armor for the same cost, and that's kind of a no-brainer upgrade
-A bolter is worth at least an additional point over a lasgun (I'd argue 2 since 6th Ed. Rapid Fire changes have rendered bolters not much worse than storm bolters, but I'll be charitable to the doubtful), so now we're at 11
-From here to reach the current cost of a Sister we're then valuing krak grenades, a bolt pistol, a 6++ save, and an Act of Faith (which costs no finite non-renewing resource now, whatever you want to say about it) at 1 point, and I think it's safe to say that's a decent deal, especially considering we've probably undervalued the upgrade to power armor above

And there you have the current cost of a Sister that so many people complain about. They're actually an excellent deal and do everything that a Marine can do most of of the time; it's not as though you're Running Tac Squads across the table to get them into combat as fast as you can. Sisters also shoot their bolters better, sometimes.

6th Ed.'s emphasis on shooting makes all the advantages Marines may have over them in close combat worth very little, and it also remains the case that a Tac Marine is offensively kinda weak in combat anyway. The only substantial disadvantages of a Sister, considering what really happens on a gaming table, are -1 Toughness and no ATSKNF, but for that you get a 2-4 point discount (depending on your Marine flavor), a generally underestimated Act of Faith, and an invulnerable save--admittedly, yes, a bad one, but combined with the fact that Sisters are the cheapest power-armor wearing things around, it renders AP3 weapons, which pay a high premium for their anti-Marine potential, not especially efficient to shoot at them.

TL;DR: Sisters are fine, rules-wise. I don't want to write an even longer post about all their supporting units and characters but suffice to say that a few are amazing, a few are pretty terrible, but most are solidly good at least, which is the best that can be said for any army list I can think of right now.

They're only fine when you work up from the Guard, work backwards from a CSM:

-1 Point = -1WS/S/T/I

Or from a Vanilla Marine:
-2 Points = -1WS/S/T/I AND -ATSKNF

The problem is that Marines have gotten so cheap that it's basically making Sisters worse by comparison.

Sisters also have other issues regarding points costs, like paying 20 points for Heavy Flamers (they're worth 10-15 at most, and a number of other books only pay 15 for them), and the 25 Point Eviscerator that Guard pay 15 points for.

They're mechanically fine but they have some points issues that need to be sorted.

A.T.
02-10-2013, 17:32
They're mechanically fine but they have some points issues that need to be sorted.Throw stubborn, adamantine will, sensible weapon options and a decent faith power on them and they'd be fine. Still miffed that the eldar ran off with divine guidance :p

Anyone else find it slightly ominous that Cruddace mentioned they might get a print copy of the digital dex if it sells well enough? Suggests that there isn't anything in terms of models or a codex on the horizon for the sisters.

Zion
02-10-2013, 17:46
Throw stubborn, adamantine will, sensible weapon options and a decent faith power on them and they'd be fine. Still miffed that the eldar ran off with divine guidance :p

Anyone else find it slightly ominous that Cruddace mentioned they might get a print copy of the digital dex if it sells well enough? Suggests that there isn't anything in terms of models or a codex on the horizon for the sisters.

Army wide Stubborn would likely be too much, the weapon options are related to the Holy Trinity so anymore weapon options should be based on that, but I could get behind Adamantium Will. Still not worth 12pts a Battle Sister (and even more for other options).

stevegill
02-10-2013, 18:32
Anyone else find it slightly ominous that Cruddace mentioned they might get a print copy of the digital dex if it sells well enough? Suggests that there isn't anything in terms of models or a codex on the horizon for the sisters.

Ominous? No
Disappointing? Yes

I really was hoping the Sisters reboot would be coming along in the next year or two.

Zion
02-10-2013, 19:25
I really don't see how "if this digital copy sells well we'll shell out the money to do a print run on physical copies" means "not codex for you trolololololol". These are not related events and one does not have a relation to the other.

HoBoAnarki
02-10-2013, 20:32
Re. the Confessor: Whaa? I don't want to quote points costs excessively but his Rosarius is free, his base cost is low

What? He costs more than a chaos lord despite being worse in every aspect.

Honestly, with a few points adjustments the WD codex would be perfectly playable, even if there is a very limited unit choice.

Drop battle sisters to 10 points
Drop heavy flamers to 10 points
Drop the cost of generic HQ's by 10-20 points
Drop the cost of some wargear (mainly looking at eviscerators)
Drop celestians to 12 points (still a pretty poor unit, but at least it wouldn't be over costed)
Not points related, but give the immolator back it's fire point. It really just seems like an over sight to have left it out.

To be honest, if they did all that they could probably bump Celestine and Jacobus up by 15 or so points.

Zion
02-10-2013, 20:42
What? He costs more than a chaos lord despite being worse in every aspect.

Honestly, with a few points adjustments the WD codex would be perfectly playable, even if there is a very limited unit choice.

Drop battle sisters to 10 points
Drop heavy flamers to 10 points
Drop the cost of generic HQ's by 10-20 points
Drop the cost of some wargear (mainly looking at eviscerators)
Drop celestians to 12 points (still a pretty poor unit, but at least it wouldn't be over costed)
Not points related, but give the immolator back it's fire point. It really just seems like an over sight to have left it out.

To be honest, if they did all that they could probably bump Celestine and Jacobus up by 15 or so points.

Celestine can easily be 130 for what she does. I'd say as high as 145 just because she's kind of a troll HQ.

Desteele
02-10-2013, 21:55
Army wide Stubborn would likely be too much, the weapon options are related to the Holy Trinity so anymore weapon options should be based on that, but I could get behind Adamantium Will. Still not worth 12pts a Battle Sister (and even more for other options).
I personally feel that Stubborn fits the Sisters very well. These after all are very 'motivated' troops. I just don't see them running because they have lost a close combat. I see them been ground down in the close combat to the last Sister which does create that heroic feel to them. We did effectively have stubborn in the past in the Witch Hunter codex when we had the book of St Lucia.

Remember these are girls who refused to even believe the Adeptus Custodes when they were told that Ecclesiarch Vandire was insane. They had to be taken before the Emperor himself before they would change their minds. Now that's stubborn!

:)

I have detailed my thoughts re Sisters and stubborn amongst other things in letters to the design studio. Did get a reply back from Phil Kelly saying "Rest assured, your ideas and suggestions have been 'added to the melting pot'". That was in January.

So we will see what we see whan a Full Codex arrives ... when it does.

A.T.
02-10-2013, 22:13
I really don't see how "if this digital copy sells well we'll shell out the money to do a print run on physical copies" means "not codex for you trolololololol".It simply makes it less likely that the line as been greenlit as you would expect decisions on what to do in terms of existing rules and models to have be made at that point.

Zion
02-10-2013, 22:16
I personally feel that Stubborn fits the Sisters very well. These after all are very 'motivated' troops. I just don't see them running because they have lost a close combat. I see them been ground down in the close combat to the last Sister which does create that heroic feel to them. We did effectively have stubborn in the past in the Witch Hunter codex when we had the book of St Lucia.

It fits -some- Sisters more than others (we actually have an Order that fits the bill for that more than giving it to every single Sister). Making it army wide also takes something away from the Canoness.


Remember these are girls who refused to even believe the Adeptus Custodes when they were told that Ecclesiarch Vandire was insane. They had to be taken before the Emperor himself before they would change their minds. Now that's stubborn!

Right, but that's not the same effect as not being shaken by the actions of the enemy on the battlefield. And I'd also say that's a very high level of sceptism and rather smart since they didn't just go "oh, okay" like Horus did and switch sides. :P


I have detailed my thoughts re Sisters and stubborn amongst other things in letters to the design studio. Did get a reply back from Phil Kelly saying "Rest assured, your ideas and suggestions have been 'added to the melting pot'". That was in January.

So we will see what we see whan a Full Codex arrives ... when it does.

I too sent Phil a letter, a couple months ago now actually, but he never wrote me back. I sometimes wonder if he even got it. I hear baaaaaad things about the UK Postal Service.

A.T.
02-10-2013, 22:27
Making it army wide also takes something away from the Canoness.It was army wide in 3rd.

Of course the celestians in 3rd also had +1 init and the (old school) preferred enemy. The canoness is like a condensed example of everything Cruddace was screwing up - the dodgy pricing, the mangled faith powers, the missing wargear and the poor balancing.

There is just so much in the book that you could point to and ask him "explain the thinking behind this" - and I don't think he could.

Desteele
02-10-2013, 22:33
To be fair that was one reply to 6 letters I have sent over as many months. Since they all went to the same address (which was the one you posted online) I presume that they all must have got there ok. Phil did say in his reply that due to the number of letters he received he can't reply to all of them.
I spread my letters out amongst all the developers.

UK postal service is not that bad as I have never had anything go missing from Amazon etc.

Zion
02-10-2013, 23:40
It was army wide in 3rd.

Of course the celestians in 3rd also had +1 init and the (old school) preferred enemy. The canoness is like a condensed example of everything Cruddace was screwing up - the dodgy pricing, the mangled faith powers, the missing wargear and the poor balancing.

There is just so much in the book that you could point to and ask him "explain the thinking behind this" - and I don't think he could.

If we start quoting old books then we might as well point out that Sisters were T4 in 2nd, and we had a T6 Canoness who was S7 in close combat. :D

Seriously, the design philosophies of the past don't line up with the present edition that well. I'd rather have a force that represents the fluff well than one that curb stomps players into a pile of tears and broken dreams.

And frankly handing out stubborn (and later fearless) like candy was an issue they've moved away from. Now we just need ATSKNF to be toned down to "immune to fear, can't be swept" and we'd be doing much better.

A.T.
03-10-2013, 01:17
I'd rather have a force that represents the fluff well than one that curb stomps players into a pile of tears and broken dreams.Not running away when charged does fit the sisters fluff rather well.

deathrain-commander
03-10-2013, 05:32
I'd never thought of writing Phil Kelly. Of course my letter would probably consist of 3 pages of asking why he decided to not make Faith points scale but that's me.

I honestly don't mind the new Faith system as much as some people, at least in theory. I liked the old Witch Hunters Faith Point style, but 3 editions later I can understand them wanting to move away from that (too much book keeping). I think the concept is stable, it's just the D6 thing does not work. It takes the number of Faith points completely out of the player's control (yes yes Uriah, the point stands). I think having it generated by the units would work best, probably on a turn by turn basis. It also would make more sense from a business perspective, buy more units to generate more Faith, etc.

Honestly, my Sisters remind me a lot of my Wood Elves. They're really underpowered NOW, but a couple of quick and minor rules changes and points tweaks and they'd be fine. Anyone have a release date for the Digital Codex (between that and the DE update I'm going to be broke, but I'm buying it just to show support, even if it is just a copy-pasta of the WD dex)

MajorWesJanson
03-10-2013, 07:18
Easy way to scale faith points? d6 per turn per HQ slot used. Allied detachment gets max of d6, normal FOC gets up to 2d6, double force org gets up to 4d6, they reset to 0 faith points at start of your turn (so you can use them in the opponents turn). Certain characters modify this, say Celestine replaces a d6 with 3+d3, or a piece of wargear lets you reroll one or more of the d6s per turn (or once per game)

Aluinn
03-10-2013, 07:51
If we start quoting old books then we might as well point out that Sisters were T4 in 2nd, and we had a T6 Canoness who was S7 in close combat. :D

Seriously, the design philosophies of the past don't line up with the present edition that well. I'd rather have a force that represents the fluff well than one that curb stomps players into a pile of tears and broken dreams.

And frankly handing out stubborn (and later fearless) like candy was an issue they've moved away from. Now we just need ATSKNF to be toned down to "immune to fear, can't be swept" and we'd be doing much better.

I'd actually rather see army-wide Hatred or Crusader and/or Adamantium Will (which would be essentially what they used to get as anti-psykery when combined with standard Deny the Witch).

Army-wide Stubborn would mean they likely couldn't have the above, which I think are more thematic, and I agree that it makes more sense as an ability bestowed by characters.

However, having said all that, it should be noted that although Codex: Witch Hunters is old, it also followed, more or less, the modern (i.e. post-3rd) design philosophy and fit in with things printed in 4th and 5th without many problems. Having said that, it seems to have been a bit of an accident that they got army-wide Stubborn in that book, because they didn't literally have army-wide Stubborn: They had an underpriced-to-the-point-of-stupidity wargear item which all characters from Sister Superiors up (okay, Inquisition stuff excepted) could take without sacrificing any other options and which granted Stubborn. If the intention was for them to all have it all the time, it would likely have been an army-wide rule. I think someone just completely goofed up the points cost on Book of Saint Lucius (the item in question). The fact that every unit could temporarily become Fearless with an Act suggests that this was the case and it was intended that said Act would be used (when needed of course) rather than the ubiquitous Book. That a core rules screwup oddly made Stubborn better than Fearless for a long time didn't help, either.

Which, by the way, is something they could go back to as an alternative, by creating a hybrid of the current Acts system and the old one, e.g. allowing each unit to choose from the same list of Acts (possibly with different costs e.g. 2 Faith Points for the Rending one), and including a Fearless-for-a-turn/phase Act in that list. That would really represent their faith granting them courage better than just a slapped-on across-the-board Stubborn IMO.

It's roughly comparable to IG Independent Characters and camo cloaks granting whole units Stealth for approximately nothing--almost certainly a bungle.

Or Saint Lucius was the galaxy's most prolific writer. I don't know.

EDIT: Derp, suggested Zealot but forgot it includes Fearless IIRC; I'm separated from my book.


They're only fine when you work up from the Guard, work backwards from a CSM:

-1 Point = -1WS/S/T/I

Or from a Vanilla Marine:
-2 Points = -1WS/S/T/I AND -ATSKNF

The problem is that Marines have gotten so cheap that it's basically making Sisters worse by comparison.

Sisters also have other issues regarding points costs, like paying 20 points for Heavy Flamers (they're worth 10-15 at most, and a number of other books only pay 15 for them), and the 25 Point Eviscerator that Guard pay 15 points for.

They're mechanically fine but they have some points issues that need to be sorted.

It would have to be a Chaos Marine with Mark of Tzeentch and access to their Act of Faith. I'm not sure what Acts of Faith are worth per model (as they're not a constant thing, rely on a randomly-generated-per-turn resource, and are variably easy/hard to pass the test for depending on army/unit comp, it's pretty much impossible to assess), but if it's even something like 0.5, that seems fair--MoT is 2 points/model for CSM.

But I'll be the first to admit that generic Chaos Marines aren't really a grand comparison for anything; there's a good reason why you (probably; local meta and all) rarely see them.

Tactical Marines are better, but again you're throwing out 6++ and the Act. I could go on about this for a long time but I think there are psychological reasons why a 6++ is somewhat undervalued by most players. It's probably not worth 2 points per model, as CSM pay, but it's worth something. 1-1.5, maybe--it depends on the value of the model it's protecting, which, to give Phil some credit, is why it's reasonably costed for Cultists.

The Act is also undervalued if your Sisters army comp is such that you can attempt it, let's say, 5/6 turns reliably, and pass it reliably due to modifiers, but that is an "if", I confess. If you have no Jacobus and a bunch of support units it's probably worth next to nothing; if you have relatively few units and Jacobus it's pretty much a constant free buff. This is one of the reasons why I advocate blobbing the Troops and relying on bolters/heavy bolters.

I do agree on some upgrades and also have thought that Priests/Preachers have needed some revamping for a while. It makes some sense for a Confessor to pay what he does for an eviscerator (more attacks, high-ish WS), but that cost for a mini-IC is way over the top, surely. They're also both made to have Zealot and need to be given it, points being adjusted accordingly if necessary.

I don't notice the heavy flamer thing much because, to be totally honest, I never use them, but yes that is wonky.

Baaltor
03-10-2013, 09:09
A 6++ save isn't worth a single point on a marine, especially from the mark of Tzeentch, prohibiting you from useful upgrades. For the thirteen points you'd save from not buying the mark for 13 guys at one point each, you'd lose two guys, 26 points. That's not too bad on paper, but that's a worst case, your army got rapid fired by railguns out of cover, and you were fearless scenario. Very low chance of it ever seeing use, and ridiculously low payoff means worthless. Insult to injury is that the weapons you're using the save against are often going to obliterate them if they took so many wounds. But yeah, you said you understood that the mark was soggy beans.

The marines actually are pretty comparable, especially with the Iron hands, as feel no pain is usually all round superior to inv. saves.

You failed to account for the fact that their gear has cost already, and that options are usually marked up by about two times over them being standard.If I were to math out the sisters, starting a guardsmen, I'd go:

5 Guard
Vet. 5
Las=>Bolter 1
Flak=>Power armour 3
Faith 2
6+ Save 1

Total 5+((7)/2)=~9 total

That said I'd rather they got abilities that go this low. But I find some of your reasoning for prices a little strange given that you think defensive grenades are less than a point. I'd agree focus fire is worth one point on firewarriors, but where it comes into play is on the other units in the army. Not to say it should go up in cost. But as an upgrade defensive grenades run a unit about 2 points, and standard they're about 1 point.

A.T.
03-10-2013, 10:04
Having said that, it seems to have been a bit of an accident that they got army-wide Stubborn in that book, because they didn't literally have army-wide StubbornSomeone asked Andy Hoare about it way back and he said it was intentional - it followed on from the 2nd edition sisters where many of the results on the pre-game sacred rites table made the sisters fearless or otherwise resistant to psychology.

While the book itself in 2nd was used for tests to recover from being broken rather than the break tests themselves sisters did have a 5 point item that simply allowed them to auto-pass moral tests and with special characters on the board they were typically running at Ld10, often with rerolls, and sometimes on the best of 3d6.

They made marines look like a bunch of weak-kneed pacifists.

HoBoAnarki
03-10-2013, 13:38
So the sisters of battle section on the games workshops store has been changed to Adepta Sororitas, so I'm guessing they must be releasing the codex soon.

Although I don't know why it's changed to Adepta Sororitas considering it's called codex:sisters of battle in the white dwarf ad.

stevegill
03-10-2013, 14:31
So the sisters of battle section on the games workshops store has been changed to Adepta Sororitas, so I'm guessing they must be releasing the codex soon.

Although I don't know why it's changed to Adepta Sororitas considering it's called codex:sisters of battle in the white dwarf ad.

How odd indeed, especially as 'Adepta Sororitas' apparently goes between 'Orks' and 'Space Marines' in the alphabetical list :D

Zion
03-10-2013, 14:47
I'd never thought of writing Phil Kelly. Of course my letter would probably consist of 3 pages of asking why he decided to not make Faith points scale but that's me.

Cruddace wrote the last batch of rules, so Phil wouldn't be able to tell you.


It would have to be a Chaos Marine with Mark of Tzeentch and access to their Act of Faith. I'm not sure what Acts of Faith are worth per model (as they're not a constant thing, rely on a randomly-generated-per-turn resource, and are variably easy/hard to pass the test for depending on army/unit comp, it's pretty much impossible to assess), but if it's even something like 0.5, that seems fair--MoT is 2 points/model for CSM.

Acts of Faith are small, temporary bonuses that only occur on your turn. Fearless, re-roll 1s, ect. The rules are good but the limitations and requirements to activate them really don't make them worth much. .5 points seems a little high just because of how rarely that you can consistently use every Act of Faith in your army in a turn, and I don't just mean because of Faith Points, I mean because they're so situational that more than half the time they don't do anything helpful.

The 6++ I love, but no, it's not worth 2 points. -Maybe- a point. It's a tiny bonus and not one I'd ascribe any significant points value too. Even if we take CSM at that 2 point cost we see a 3 point increase to gain +1WS/S/T/I. That's still not a reasonable gap. It's better, but not reasonable.


But I'll be the first to admit that generic Chaos Marines aren't really a grand comparison for anything; there's a good reason why you (probably; local meta and all) rarely see them.
I've got some die hard CSM players locally, so no, I see them often enough.


Tactical Marines are better, but again you're throwing out 6++ and the Act. I could go on about this for a long time but I think there are psychological reasons why a 6++ is somewhat undervalued by most players. It's probably not worth 2 points per model, as CSM pay, but it's worth something. 1-1.5, maybe--it depends on the value of the model it's protecting, which, to give Phil some credit, is why it's reasonably costed for Cultists.
The main problem is that C:SM are still going to only be 2 points more and they may not have a 6++ or AoF but they have the stat bonus and the game's most broken USR.

And we're ignoring the bad pricing on other units as well.
Here's some examples:
Canoness - Same cost as a Chaos Lord, but loses -1WS/S/T/I. Canoness has Stubborn, Lord is Fearless. AoF can easily be traded for Champion of Chaos as they're both incredibly situation and sometimes useless.
Celestians - 3 points more than a Battle Sister each. WS4/A2/Ld9. Apparently they had to pay a point for each of those upgrades but a massive stat boost to Marine levels is worth 1-2 points.

The pricing inside the book doesn't even follow a real internal logic. Dominions have scout so they're 13, but the Retributors can flip on Rending as a rule and they're 12.


The Act is also undervalued if your Sisters army comp is such that you can attempt it, let's say, 5/6 turns reliably, and pass it reliably due to modifiers, but that is an "if", I confess. If you have no Jacobus and a bunch of support units it's probably worth next to nothing; if you have relatively few units and Jacobus it's pretty much a constant free buff. This is one of the reasons why I advocate blobbing the Troops and relying on bolters/heavy bolters.

Very few Acts really have a reason to be used every turn. Even the shooting ones are limited, and there is no way to make every single unit pass AoF often enough to call it "reliable".


I do agree on some upgrades and also have thought that Priests/Preachers have needed some revamping for a while. It makes some sense for a Confessor to pay what he does for an eviscerator (more attacks, high-ish WS), but that cost for a mini-IC is way over the top, surely. They're also both made to have Zealot and need to be given it, points being adjusted accordingly if necessary.
The model already pays for those stats when you buy him, charging him a second time for them is BS, pure and simple. There is a downside to the Eviscerator too: I1, no bonus attacks for extra CCWs, meaning you're going last so you to not die before you get to swing, and then you have 1 less die to throw in your favor too. And this isn't a Specialty Weapon, but a 2 Handed Weapon that prohibits this, so buying two doesn't fix it.

Dryaktylus
03-10-2013, 15:07
So the sisters of battle section on the games workshops store has been changed to Adepta Sororitas, so I'm guessing they must be releasing the codex soon.

Although I don't know why it's changed to Adepta Sororitas considering it's called codex:sisters of battle in the white dwarf ad.

It was always Adeptus Sororitas (yes, yes... it's always Adeptus here, regardless of the organisation) in German. Looks just better on a book IMO (and MUCH better than "Schwestern der Schlacht" or "Kampfschwestern").

A.T.
03-10-2013, 15:35
Celestians - 3 points more than a Battle Sister each. WS4/A2/Ld9.Due to the way the unit was written they are effectively A1 with a bolter, bolt pistol, and cc weapon - the one model that can get a bonus attack by wielding two weapons doesn't get the extra attack for being a superior.

The sad thing about the celestians is that if you were to combine all of the options and abilities of the celestian squad and the celestian command squad into a single unit they'd almost work as a command squad for the canoness.


On the subject of points what I would like to see are 10pt plasma pistols - i've got a converted superior all modelled up with a pair of them but 47-50pts is a little steep for my liking.

Zion
03-10-2013, 15:47
Speaking of Adepta Sororitas:

179400

Looks like it's this weekend for the release.

Kore5022
03-10-2013, 17:18
Repentia have a 4+ save according to gw ssite
saint is also str 5 3 attacks which makes me think heR sword has changed so she isn't strong against all the new expensive monsters, makes me wonder if she's changed entirely going to be a big laugh if the changes make them even worse

HoBoAnarki
03-10-2013, 17:32
Good catch, looking through unit stats seraphim are up to I4

andrewm9
03-10-2013, 17:33
Mostlikely those are the same stats from the Witch Hunter codex like theh have always been throughout 3rd, 4th, and 5th edition product listings. In other words the web guys were lazy about the transition from the old codex to uhe new and just kept the descriptions and stats.

After all those are the stats the Repentia, Mistress, and Seraphim had before from Witch Hunters.

A.T.
03-10-2013, 17:34
Repentia have a 4+ save according to gw ssite
saint is also str 5 3 attacks which makes me think heR sword has changed so she isn't strong against all the new expensive monsters, makes me wonder if she's changed entirely going to be a big laugh if the changes make them even worseNo - those are the old 3rd edition statlines, GW have never bothered to update them.

edit- ninjaed :p


The old celestine was an interesting case though, she'd have wiped the floor with her 5th edition counterpart easily enough but if she died your army got hammered in the faith department and then she had to deepstrike back in rather than just standing up - so she was effectively out of the game at that point.

She featured in a white dwarf battle report between the witch hunters and the tau - around about turn 2 the tau railgunned her and knocked out the faith powers of the entire sisters battleforce for the rest of the game. It was odd as she was would have been a far more common sight if she just dropped dead when shot instead of sucking up all the faith points to stand back up again.

As for the repentia, they had 4+ armour as FnP wasn't a save back then. They were more expensive, less dangerous in combat, much faster, and were only ever used in the witch hunter 'joke' autopilot lists where you would put down your army and then have pretty much no control over what most of them did from that point on.

Kore5022
03-10-2013, 17:40
Bahhh knew I should of dug out my old book that will teach me for being lazy llol was kinda looking forward to useful repentia again

A.T.
03-10-2013, 17:57
Sisters of battle paint set up, naturally for the Order of Our Martyred Lady and for some reason lacking seraphim sepia.

Aluinn
03-10-2013, 19:59
Cruddace wrote the last batch of rules, so Phil wouldn't be able to tell you.



Acts of Faith are small, temporary bonuses that only occur on your turn. Fearless, re-roll 1s, ect. The rules are good but the limitations and requirements to activate them really don't make them worth much. .5 points seems a little high just because of how rarely that you can consistently use every Act of Faith in your army in a turn, and I don't just mean because of Faith Points, I mean because they're so situational that more than half the time they don't do anything helpful.

The 6++ I love, but no, it's not worth 2 points. -Maybe- a point. It's a tiny bonus and not one I'd ascribe any significant points value too. Even if we take CSM at that 2 point cost we see a 3 point increase to gain +1WS/S/T/I. That's still not a reasonable gap. It's better, but not reasonable.

I've got some die hard CSM players locally, so no, I see them often enough.

Re. CSM I meant the model/unit, i.e. generic Chaos Space Marines on foot as opposed to e.g. Plague Marines, not the army. I play the army :). Since they lost their close combat weapons at the current cost, I myself don't and rarely see other CSM players use the generic entry because of: A) The marked Lord making "cult" units Troops (and there being little reason not to take the Lord because he can cost so little), and some of those being pretty good; and B) the addition of Cultists if you want either a blob or a cheap scoring unit that hides.

Re. Light of the Emperor, I've had quite a few games, even when using heavy bolter Retributors, where I attempted it every turn and passed it almost every turn (almost always in the shooting phase). Jacobus means you're very unlikely to have less than 3 Faith Points in any given turn, and IMO only Retributors "need" to use it--even Dominions are absolutely fine without theirs unless you need a (near-as-possible) guaranteed Land Raider kill or something. So amongst units that I want to use Acts for I usually just have 2 large Sisters squads (plus a small one for scoring purposes--no pun intended), a squad of Retributors, and a squad of Dominions, and that usually means Light of the Emperor on a 2+ every turn where it matters.

It sounds like we're completely agreed on the 6++. As I said I don't think it's worth the 2 points that it costs a Chaos Marine, but it's worth a point at least, especially on a model as relatively valuable (compared to most Troops) as a Sister.


The main problem is that C:SM are still going to only be 2 points more and they may not have a 6++ or AoF but they have the stat bonus and the game's most broken USR.

And we're ignoring the bad pricing on other units as well.
Here's some examples:
Canoness - Same cost as a Chaos Lord, but loses -1WS/S/T/I. Canoness has Stubborn, Lord is Fearless. AoF can easily be traded for Champion of Chaos as they're both incredibly situation and sometimes useless.
Celestians - 3 points more than a Battle Sister each. WS4/A2/Ld9. Apparently they had to pay a point for each of those upgrades but a massive stat boost to Marine levels is worth 1-2 points.

The pricing inside the book doesn't even follow a real internal logic. Dominions have scout so they're 13, but the Retributors can flip on Rending as a rule and they're 12.

I agree there are some bad units and that some things are overcosted. When I originally said Sisters were "fine", I should probably have been clearer that (aside from that conversation being more specifically about the Battle Sister as a model or Battle Sisters as a Troops unit) I meant it in a relative and holistic sense, i.e.: "Taken as an entire army list, considering that other armies generally also have internal balance problems--sometimes very bad ones--I think the Sisters list is functional and competitive enough."

As for comparing them to 14-point Marines with ATSKNF, although I know Marines are considered by some to be the standard by which all other Troops units/models should be judged (because they're common, I guess), working back from them produces wonky results in a lot of cases. It's just that satisfied folk generally never attempt the exercise. However, do it for a Kabalite Warrior, a Guardian, especially a Dire Avenger, or even a Fire Warrior and it will seem that they're getting massive stat increases for nothing.

Part of the problem here is that, in real gameplay, WS4, S4, and I4 often mean nothing for Tacs (well, maybe dying a little more slowly if an assault specialist gets to them). They don't want to be in combat and everyone knows what they can do so well that they almost exclusively end up fighting things that will womp them. It's an issue of a unit that is better off shooting being asked to pay for combat stats, and in that case, it may make some sense that they come at a discount. It's my guess that if Marine players could take Tacs with lower WS, S, and I for a points drop they would probably do so.

Anyway, at the end of the day, 2 points sounds like very little, but on a Troops model it's a lot. You're generally taking a ton of them and it adds up to a ton of points in your whole army list.


The model already pays for those stats when you buy him, charging him a second time for them is BS, pure and simple. There is a downside to the Eviscerator too: I1, no bonus attacks for extra CCWs, meaning you're going last so you to not die before you get to swing, and then you have 1 less die to throw in your favor too. And this isn't a Specialty Weapon, but a 2 Handed Weapon that prohibits this, so buying two doesn't fix it.

Eh it's just not enough for me to complain about. If a fair cost for a power fist on such a model would be 15, and I think that is indeed as low as you can go (it's the IG, i.e. "I'm-just-a-humie-with-extra-Wounds-and-WS" standard), well, the eviscerator has an additional ability and, in consideration for rounded points costs where possible--or multiple-of-5 costs where possible I should say--it's probably fair for it to be 20. Then we're left quibbling over 5 points and I just don't care to do it.

It starts to matter when it comes to Preachers, who I admit should get it for the Guard cost because they really don't have up-to-snuff IC stats, but rather unit-leader stats, and also because there can be enough of them in an army that the difference can add up.

andrewm9
03-10-2013, 21:02
It starts to matter when it comes to Preachers, who I admit should get it for the Guard cost because they really don't have up-to-snuff IC stats, but rather unit-leader stats, and also because there can be enough of them in an army that the difference can add up.

Its even more egregious when you compare the Priest himself to an Inquisitor from Codex Grey knights which is 20 points less and has better WS, BS, I, Ld, A, more wounds and has stubborn and psyke out grenades. Further for 5 points more the Sanguinary Priest has +2 WS & L, +1 S, T, BS, power armor, and a feel no pain, furious charge bubble.
The Priest is probably the worst unit for his points in any current codex.

People might say he has a Rosarius so that makes him worth his points, but the first failed 4++ save and he is dead.

Zion
03-10-2013, 21:38
Re. CSM I meant the model/unit, i.e. generic Chaos Space Marines on foot as opposed to e.g. Plague Marines, not the army. I play the army :). Since they lost their close combat weapons at the current cost, I myself don't and rarely see other CSM players use the generic entry because of: A) The marked Lord making "cult" units Troops (and there being little reason not to take the Lord because he can cost so little), and some of those being pretty good; and B) the addition of Cultists if you want either a blob or a cheap scoring unit that hides.

I know, I wasn't talking about the Cult Marine options.


Re. Light of the Emperor, I've had quite a few games, even when using heavy bolter Retributors, where I attempted it every turn and passed it almost every turn (almost always in the shooting phase). Jacobus means you're very unlikely to have less than 3 Faith Points in any given turn, and IMO only Retributors "need" to use it--even Dominions are absolutely fine without theirs unless you need a (near-as-possible) guaranteed Land Raider kill or something. So amongst units that I want to use Acts for I usually just have 2 large Sisters squads (plus a small one for scoring purposes--no pun intended), a squad of Retributors, and a squad of Dominions, and that usually means Light of the Emperor on a 2+ every turn where it matters.

Light of the Emperor is a BSS only option. Every unit is locked down to one AoF (not counting SCs who can share). So I'm not sure what you're talking about there.

And while Jacobus makes it harder to have less than 3 Faith Points you can still easilly roll a 2 followed by a 1, or a 1 then a 1 or a 1 then a 2. I've had all three happen in the same game before. Not fun.


It sounds like we're completely agreed on the 6++. As I said I don't think it's worth the 2 points that it costs a Chaos Marine, but it's worth a point at least, especially on a model as relatively valuable (compared to most Troops) as a Sister.

Agreed. I just feel the gap in points between Marines and "mere humans" should be a bit bigger. This just doesn't feel big enough to me.


I agree there are some bad units and that some things are overcosted. When I originally said Sisters were "fine", I should probably have been clearer that (aside from that conversation being more specifically about the Battle Sister as a model or Battle Sisters as a Troops unit) I meant it in a relative and holistic sense, i.e.: "Taken as an entire army list, considering that other armies generally also have internal balance problems--sometimes very bad ones--I think the Sisters list is functional and competitive enough."

Taken alone, in a vacuum against no other army, yes, Sisters are fine. But those costing issues make themselves known the more you play. Who likes having a 37 point Sister with a Heavy Flamer who has to stand in the front to be effective, basically works 1 time, gets shot and dies before she can overwatch? I can say it bothers me quite a bit. I'd be less annoyed by it if adjacent models in the unit (who weren't characters) could attempt to pick up the weapon, but as is, it *******' sucks.


As for comparing them to 14-point Marines with ATSKNF, although I know Marines are considered by some to be the standard by which all other Troops units/models should be judged (because they're common, I guess), working back from them produces wonky results in a lot of cases. It's just that satisfied folk generally never attempt the exercise. However, do it for a Kabalite Warrior, a Guardian, especially a Dire Avenger, or even a Fire Warrior and it will seem that they're getting massive stat increases for nothing.

I don't have my book in front of me, but if I recall most of those units also have rules like Battle Focus, supporting fire, and increased range over a Sister. They have something to show for it that really balances them out in a fight against a Marine. Sisters, statline and equipment wise at least, don't. We get a -few- more models for the same points but that's about it.

Okay, now I admit I'm sounding a little bitter, but it's frustrating to see your army get an update where they finally fix the cost of the Rhino then increase the cost of the army points wise almost everywhere else.

MagicHat
03-10-2013, 22:54
Part of the problem here is that, in real gameplay, WS4, S4, and I4 often mean nothing for Tacs (well, maybe dying a little more slowly if an assault specialist gets to them). They don't want to be in combat and everyone knows what they can do so well that they almost exclusively end up fighting things that will womp them. It's an issue of a unit that is better off shooting being asked to pay for combat stats, and in that case, it may make some sense that they come at a discount. It's my guess that if Marine players could take Tacs with lower WS, S, and I for a points drop they would probably do so.


I take it you mean 1 point? Possibly 2?
I would consider that a foolish trade, but my assault marines would laugh.
Less likely to pass I test like blind and sweeping advance, will lose more men to enemy assault/wont escape them.
Worse at assaulting other short range firepower units, worse at running them down.

My tacticals have often accomplished more in assault then they did in shooting, taking down genestealers, orks and gaunts in melee.
Even hostile terminators haven't been safe, or tervigons.

Baaltor
04-10-2013, 02:38
I'd guess it's only viable at 5-3 points drop.

Kore5022
04-10-2013, 06:13
Just wondering if anyone else can check to see if kyrinov is still availiable ? He's missing from the GW Australia store (probably a stock thing)

IcedAnimals
04-10-2013, 06:20
THe kyrinov model is still available on the US site.

A.T.
04-10-2013, 09:38
Just wondering if anyone else can check to see if kyrinov is still availiable ? He's missing from the GW Australia store (probably a stock thing)He's missing from the UK site along with the seraphim superiors but it depends where you are, i'm guessing the molds have worn out and GW aren't re-cutting them.

Baraqiel
04-10-2013, 13:00
The new cover: http://pinsofwar.com/codex-adepta-sororitas-cover/

and from the GW FB page:

It's certainly based on the White Dwarf Sisters of Battle Codex, but with new additions to bring it in line with the new books. Things like Warlords table, new Ecclesiarchy Relics and an Altar of War.
There's also new artwork and an expanded background section.

A.T.
04-10-2013, 13:21
It looks like new art, i've not seen that one before.

deathrain-commander
04-10-2013, 13:32
Since a large portion of this discussion has been highjacked by a running question of points worth (especially of the 6++ and the AoF) I have to weigh in:

The 6++ is not worth a full point on basis Sisters, probably not worth a full point anywhere in the army. MAYBE it plus Light of the Emperor is worth a full point, but even then I doubt it (I think some acts of Faith like oh I dunno, Divine Guidance, are worth more than others, like say Hand of the Emperor).

The thing about Shield of Faith is that it's so rarely useful, I don't think it should be worth much of anything, except on vehicles, where it is occasionally hilarious. With a 3+ armor save, it's never going to come into play against light arms fire and even if your opponent did bring a lot of plasma weapons, it immediately becomes useless again if you have any kind of cover save. So I guess it's universally useful against D-Scythes or if your opponent has really good luck with his AP rolls on his Liquifier guns, but those situations are so specific that it's hardly worth paying a point for.

It'd be good for units that are hanging in the open but the only units that would be routinely out of cover are downfield close combat and tank hunting squads so I guess it's worth it for Seraphim (who with their rerolls can actually use it pretty effectively), Repentia and melta-Dominions. The rest it's maybe worth half a point, less if they spend most of their time camping in cover.

MajorWesJanson
04-10-2013, 13:37
If it comes out as a pdf or epub, I will buy it to support the Sisters. And for the art.

Zion
04-10-2013, 13:42
http://www.talkwargaming.com/2013/10/rumors-sisters-of-battle-digital-codex.html Everything we know so far rolled up into a little package. Also a confirmation of what's in the book by GW Digital Editions.

Commissar Merces
04-10-2013, 13:46
Do we have any idea how much the cost of this thing is going to be exactly?

It's certainly based on the White Dwarf Sisters of Battle Codex, but with new additions to bring it in line with the new books. Things like Warlords table, new Ecclesiarchy Relics and an Altar of War.
There's also new artwork and an expanded background section.

That post from GW gives me a little faith (ha) but not enough really. Does this mean we will not be getting a real codex or release in the near future? If so, total bullspit.

Zion
04-10-2013, 13:49
It doesn't mean anything other than GW is updating the place holder into 6th. No price has been announced yet.

MajorWesJanson
04-10-2013, 13:57
Until they get around to putting out (new) models, there is no real reason to majorly overhaul the Sisters book, which is functional if not great. Just a few tweaks, and stuff to bring it in line with 6th, and it's fine. Once new models come out, then they will have reason to rewrite/rebalance the book.

Zion
04-10-2013, 13:58
Until they get around to putting out (new) models, there is no real reason to majorly overhaul the Sisters book, which is functional if not great. Just a few tweaks, and stuff to bring it in line with 6th, and it's fine. Once new models come out, then they will have reason to rewrite/rebalance the book.

Exactly. I think this is more to drum up interest and get an idea of interest levels more than anything.

Commissar Merces
04-10-2013, 14:03
Until they get around to putting out (new) models, there is no real reason to majorly overhaul the Sisters book, which is functional if not great. Just a few tweaks, and stuff to bring it in line with 6th, and it's fine. Once new models come out, then they will have reason to rewrite/rebalance the book.

Right, I agree with that. But I am not going to spend $50 on a tweak. Seems just a bit... coldhearted. Also no mention of inquisitors as options is a big minus for me. If the price is reasonable, I will probably get a copy because I am a "loser" who loves sisters.

Zion
04-10-2013, 14:06
Right, I agree with that. But I am not going to spend $50 on a tweak. Seems just a bit... coldhearted. Also no mention of inquisitors as options is a big minus for me. If the price is reasonable, I will probably get a copy because I am a "loser" who loves sisters.

Inquisitors went back out of the book in 5th. No surprises there.

Commissar Merces
04-10-2013, 14:17
Inquisitors went back out of the book in 5th. No surprises there.

Regardless of if it should be a surprise or not, I am simply saying that for me, sisters without the ability to field inquisitors (without allying with grey knights) is a turn of for me. Even if they would just put a footnote in the book like "may field inquisitors from GK book on pages so and so with options from the wargear so and so" it wouldn't be THAT hard to get the rules for inquisitors in this update.

I truly believe that is one of the reasons people have given up on sisters. I know of at least two people in my community who have said they love sisters, but they need more diversity in their HQ and elite slots and that they miss the inquisitor elements. Why isn't GW exploring this?

A.T.
04-10-2013, 14:18
...but they need more diversity in their HQ and elite slots and that they miss the inquisitor elements.You mean you aren't looking forward to having a dozen new relics and nothing but the canoness to put them on? :p

Commissar Merces
04-10-2013, 14:21
You mean you aren't looking forward to having a dozen new relics and nothing but the canoness to put them on? :p

Exactly. Just give us a basic inquisitor. The 25 point variety with a couple of upgrade options. Slap on some relics and give them the same retinue options members of the ecclesiarchy have and bam. Awesome sauce.

MajorWesJanson
04-10-2013, 14:54
Exactly. Just give us a basic inquisitor. The 25 point variety with a couple of upgrade options. Slap on some relics and give them the same retinue options members of the ecclesiarchy have and bam. Awesome sauce.

I would prefer Inquisitors to be removed from the GK codex, and made into a separate "Allied" codex. Inquisitors in HQ, Assassins and Interrogators in Elite, Stormtroopers and basic Henchmen units (troopers, servitors, mystics) as troops, DCA unit in Fast Attack, Chamber militant units in HS (Basic GK Terminator unit, Deathwatch team, Sisters of Battle Squad, based on what ordo your inquisitor is)

Spiney Norman
04-10-2013, 14:57
It depends on if you are a glass half full or half empty type of person. While it "could" mean that the sisters codex is even further away than we thought. It "could" also mean they are finally looking at sisters seriously and tossing around some ideas. The only thing it DOES mean is they are giving us some new rules to play with. I look forward to seeing our unique warlord traits even if that is the only real change in the whole book.

On the one hand its disappointing, because the fact that they are bothering to morph the white dwarf article into a digital version strongly implies they don't expect to produce a proper set of rules for the army any time soon (otherwise why spend money converting the old rules to digital format). On the other hand it is encouraging that they have stopped pretending that Sisters don't exist and makes it look less likely that they will be squatted. Does WD actually say there will be warlord traits, or is that just wishful thinking, given what they did to the sisters list with that WD article I would be expecting the absolute bare minimum of effort to give gamers something to use.


You mean you aren't looking forward to having a dozen new relics and nothing but the canoness to put them on? :p
Well there is the generic confessor, but those two are as bad as each other. Its kind of a shame that there is no reason to field a HQ that isnt Jacobus or Celestine...

MajorWesJanson
04-10-2013, 15:03
Well, SM relics turned out decent enough to make some Generic character builds quite viable if not popular, so maybe some Ecclesiarchal Relics will help balance the basic Confessor and Canoness against the SC versions?

Spiney Norman
04-10-2013, 15:15
According to one of those sites, Cruddace has supposedly said they've tweaked points in the codex, is it bad that I'm expecting them to have made it even worse and decided that regular battle sisters are actually too good and need to be 13 pts a model...

It wouldnt be so bad if it hadnt come from the mouth of a designer who clearly has no idea how to balance points values in any of the codexes/army books he has written.

The idea of tweaking faith points to make them scale is an interesting one though

duffybear1988
04-10-2013, 15:22
According to one of those sites, Cruddace has supposedly said they've tweaked points in the codex, is it bad that I'm expecting them to have made it even worse and decided that regular battle sisters are actually too good and need to be 13 pts a model...

It wouldnt be so bad if it hadnt come from the mouth of a designer who clearly has no idea how to balance points values in any of the codexes/army books he has written.

The idea of tweaking faith points to make them scale is an interesting one though

I bet you he has just bumped the price of Jacobus and Celestine up to make the canoness and confessor more appealing...

HoBoAnarki
04-10-2013, 16:39
On the one hand its disappointing, because the fact that they are bothering to morph the white dwarf article into a digital version strongly implies they don't expect to produce a proper set of rules for the army any time soon.

The 5th edition space marine codex had a digital release less than a year before the current codex released, so I wouldn't really read into it too much.

RanaldLoec
04-10-2013, 16:39
Confirmed for the 19th

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2

eldargal
04-10-2013, 16:44
The 5th edition space marine codex had a digital release less than a year before the current codex released, so I wouldn't really read into it too much.
But that's half of what Warseer does, read too much into things.;)

We actually have no idea what the Codex will consist of beyond that the rules are based on the 5th edition rules. If you don't think it is going to be worth it, wait to read some reviews. It's quite possible it will be improved, 6th edition has been very well balanced in general. Personally I'll be buying it for the expanded background section and to show there is demand for SoB.

corps
04-10-2013, 18:15
James swallow book about the sister are pretty good in my opinon. S sotto is not the only one who write about it. I don't think that just some updates rules will be enought ( new ally chart, new warlors trats etc ect) or updates cost will be enought. They need more flavor in their fluff more diversity ( i want my mounted militia back) and plastic minis and vehicule. In short they need a DE remake. unfortunately if the rumours are true i don't expect anything other than updates rules and prices.

Kore5022
04-10-2013, 19:11
But that's half of what Warseer does, read too much into things.;)

We actually have no idea what the Codex will consist of beyond that the rules are based on the 5th edition rules. If you don't think it is going to be worth it, wait to read some reviews. It's quite possible it will be improved, 6th edition has been very well balanced in general. Personally I'll be buying it for the expanded background section and to show there is demand for SoB.

Games Workshop: Digital Editions (https://www.facebook.com/GamesWorkshopDigitalEditions)Hey Marc,
It's certainly based on the White Dwarf Sisters of Battle Codex, but with new additions to bring it in line with the new books. Things like Warlords table, new Ecclesiarchy Relics and an Altar of War.
There's also new artwork and an expanded background section.

- Eddie

Thats directly from the GW digital facebook page. So i guess thats probably all that's in it.
For me i'm just happy my favourite army is getting some attention as well as being able to put my white dwarfs on the shelf as there starting to get a bit ragged.

Angelwing
04-10-2013, 20:54
Torn on this.
Do I want an updated codex? Yes
Do I want to buy it to show support for a favoured army? Yes
Do I want a digital only version? No
Is it going to be what I consider value for money? Trends say no.

H'mm

Spiney Norman
05-10-2013, 00:07
The 5th edition space marine codex had a digital release less than a year before the current codex released, so I wouldn't really read into it too much.

That was slightly different, SM are the most popular army out there so converting their existing codex when the digital editions took off was pretty logical, the SoB army list article has been out of print for almost 2 years and they've only just decided to convert it now, if they have even started writing the next SoB codex at this point I'd be surprised at the decision to throw money at a soon to be obsolete digital product when they could/should have done it years ago.

On the other hand will a slick digital codex on my iPad look better than a tatty collection of photocopied WD pages, you bet it will.

The Emperor
05-10-2013, 00:18
I would prefer Inquisitors to be removed from the GK codex, and made into a separate "Allied" codex. Inquisitors in HQ, Assassins and Interrogators in Elite, Stormtroopers and basic Henchmen units (troopers, servitors, mystics) as troops, DCA unit in Fast Attack, Chamber militant units in HS (Basic GK Terminator unit, Deathwatch team, Sisters of Battle Squad, based on what ordo your inquisitor is)

Agreed. I'd prefer to see Inquisition forces taken out and put into an Allies/Mercenary Codex alongside other alien units and whatnot.

But that being said, yeah, the Sisters of Battle definitely need to have their options massively expanded. Their current army list only consists of 18 units, and most of those are just generic Battle Sisters.

Commissar Merces
05-10-2013, 00:26
Agreed. I'd prefer to see Inquisition forces taken out and put into an Allies/Mercenary Codex alongside other alien units and whatnot.

But that being said, yeah, the Sisters of Battle definitely need to have their options massively expanded. Their current army list only consists of 18 units, and most of those are just generic Battle Sisters.

I just don't see GW doing that. I talked to one of the development team members about that at gamesday and he said he didn't think an inquisitor stand alone codex would be profitable. I think he is off his rocker though. I would be all on that. At least give SoB the option for those of us with, you know, massive amounts of storm troopers and inquisitor models laying around. That's all I am asking. I feel dirty having to ally with grey knights.

eldargal
05-10-2013, 06:34
Games Workshop: Digital Editions (https://www.facebook.com/GamesWorkshopDigitalEditions)Hey Marc,
It's certainly based on the White Dwarf Sisters of Battle Codex, but with new additions to bring it in line with the new books. Things like Warlords table, new Ecclesiarchy Relics and an Altar of War.
There's also new artwork and an expanded background section.

- Eddie

Thats directly from the GW digital facebook page. So i guess thats probably all that's in it.
For me i'm just happy my favourite army is getting some attention as well as being able to put my white dwarfs on the shelf as there starting to get a bit ragged.
Your point in posting that was what exactly? That in no way contradicts my statement that we have no idea what the rules consist of beyond being based on the 5th edition rule brought in line with 6th edition. When it comes to rules the same can be said for most codices. The point being doomsaying about the rules bases on what we know of them now is pointless.

Spiney Norman
05-10-2013, 07:37
I just don't see GW doing that. I talked to one of the development team members about that at gamesday and he said he didn't think an inquisitor stand alone codex would be profitable. I think he is off his rocker though. I would be all on that. At least give SoB the option for those of us with, you know, massive amounts of storm troopers and inquisitor models laying around. That's all I am asking. I feel dirty having to ally with grey knights.

I think the real tragedy is what GW did with the inquisition is that the image of the inquisition fits so much better with the ultra-gothic gritty image of the sisters than the shiny-paladin-most-Mary-sue-ish-of-space-marines Grey Knights. Fair enough the old Ordo codexes differentiated the characters of the malleus and hereticus with the malleus being the shiny he-man types that go around bashing daemons while the hereticus are the more sinister, hat-wearing, tortures-warted-ladies type. I really don't think it would hurt grey knights at all to put hereticus inquisitors back into SoB, its not like they fit the image of GK at all anyway.

eldargal
05-10-2013, 07:40
The SoB aren't part of the Inquisition, Grey Knights are and always have been. That's an end to it as far as I'm concerned. They should never have been shoehorned into a SoB book in the first place.

Spiney Norman
05-10-2013, 07:47
The SoB aren't part of the Inquisition, Grey Knights are and always have been. That's an end to it as far as I'm concerned. They should never have been shoehorned into a SoB book in the first place.

Fair enough,from my point of view I got into 40K when the Witch Hunter codex dropped and WH Sisters were my first army, I just think it would be nice to retain Hereticus inquisitors as a HQ option even if they're not the focus of the codex.

The thing that is really wrong with the sisters list is that there is just no reason to field many of the Hq choices, the generic confessor just doesn't have a role at all (sure he unlocks a conclave, but being at least 20pts overcosted really hurts him in comparison to Jacobus and Kyrinov), the Canoness is really only good for manning a quad gun because the command squad is a complete waste of space. I basically always come down to Celestine leading my army every time, which is fine, she's a great character, but I do like to vary my list some of the time.

Torga_DW
05-10-2013, 07:59
The SoB aren't part of the Inquisition, Grey Knights are and always have been. That's an end to it as far as I'm concerned. They should never have been shoehorned into a SoB book in the first place.

I feel that way about arco-flagellants. I'm planning to remove that =I= from their faces when i eventually get around to assembling them.


Back on topic, is it a free update or one of those online supplement things? Changes or not, i think it would be good for them to have official rules of any sort available again.

eldargal
05-10-2013, 07:59
I wouldn't object to the option for an Inquisitor HQ either really, so long as it doesn't become an Inq/Ecclesetc. combined list. Or having them awkwardly attached to the Inquisition in the background which did neither institution any justice.

Commissar Merces
05-10-2013, 13:20
I wouldn't object to the option for an Inquisitor HQ either really, so long as it doesn't become an Inq/Ecclesetc. combined list. Or having them awkwardly attached to the Inquisition in the background which did neither institution any justice.

I just disagree with that. Ultimately, inquisitors can request (though sometimes not nicely) imperial forces. Sisters of Battle are beyond corruption and hate witches. They are the perfect choice for Inquisitor Bob to use has his sword. It's not awkward at all.

Axel
05-10-2013, 13:43
I have not bought anything 40k for a year now, but unless they try to get me broke with it I will be in with this one. It has been some time that my AS (and former SoB) have seen the field.

corps
05-10-2013, 15:48
I couldn't find the digital codex and so i called. The answer was that now that Iyanden is on paper, Farsight will be on paper the 19 october and the digital sister should comme at the same time. They don't know if it will be free or not.

Zion
05-10-2013, 16:04
I just disagree with that. Ultimately, inquisitors can request (though sometimes not nicely) imperial forces. Sisters of Battle are beyond corruption and hate witches. They are the perfect choice for Inquisitor Bob to use has his sword. It's not awkward at all.

And that's what the allies system is for.

Spiney Norman
05-10-2013, 17:45
And that's what the allies system is for.

Which would be fine if there was a troops squad that I could take alongside an Ordo hereticus Inquisitor that wasn't silver, shiny and utterly conflicting to the style of army I wish to run. Why is "I don't want uber-boring Mary-sue marines in my army of gritty gothic nuns" so difficult to understand?

Inquisitors are essentially tagged on to the GK codex as an afterthought so why can't they be inserted into the AS codex in the same way?

Zion
05-10-2013, 17:53
Inquisitors are essentially tagged on to the GK codex as an afterthought so why can't they be inserted into the AS codex in the same way?

Because two wrongs don't make a right.

Spiney Norman
05-10-2013, 17:56
Because two wrongs don't make a right.

The wrong in my eyes was taking the. Out of the SoB codex in the first place.

Zion
05-10-2013, 18:24
The wrong in my eyes was taking the. Out of the SoB codex in the first place.

Odd because I see the wrong as putting them in there in 3rd instead of just expanding on what we had in 2nd. Oh and dropping our 5 SCs that we had in 2nd as well.

Spiney Norman
05-10-2013, 18:32
Odd because I see the wrong as putting them in there in 3rd instead of just expanding on what we had in 2nd. Of and dropping our 5 SCs that we had in 2nd as well.

Fair enough, I didn't even play 40k back then, 3rd ed witch hunters was my first experience of 40k and the fluff back then was excellent.

Aluinn
05-10-2013, 23:29
It really makes very little difference either way as, if you want, you can count the Confessor as an Inquisitor and the Battle Conclave as his henchmen. You don't get all the henchman options, but you do get the best ones, aside from Jokaero I suppose--but they don't really fit the image of the army and are meant, in fluff terms, to indicate an Ordo Xenos Inquisitor.

And the Confessor is, IMO, much better than Inquisitors, who literally cannot get any sort of invulnerable save whatsoever--doubly so for Jacobus who's almost an auto-include anyway and can also count as an Inquisitor.

The only real loss is for those who wanted to field a specifically Ordo Hereticus army without Sisters, because Inquisitorial Storm Troopers are gone of course. I had such an army when Codex: Witch Hunters was the official book so believe me when I say I do sympathize with anyone who has that complaint. However, if you peruse the rules carefully enough you'll find other ways to do it, provided you're down with counts-as. (Essentially you have to use the Codex: GK Coteaz list or IG with allies, but it can suffice and even be reasonably good from a gaming perspective.)

The whole thing would be 100% resolved if they added Frateris Militia/Zealots/whatever as a Troops choice, as then you could have an army with no Sisters that could stand in for a "pure" Ordo Hereticus army.

Dkoz
05-10-2013, 23:58
Isn't just a lot of this just pure conjecture given that we have no idea what is going to be in the new AS codex when it comes out?

Zion
06-10-2013, 01:08
Isn't just a lot of this just pure conjecture given that we have no idea what is going to be in the new AS codex when it comes out?

We have some idea:

5th Ed WD with the following changes:
- Warlord Traits
- Relics
- Altar of War
- Faith has been "looked at" in response to the scaling issue
- 'Minor' point tweaks
- Will probably get a physical release if it sells well enough
- Released on 19th, preordering and a preview on the 12th
- New artwork
- New fluff

This is a combination of what Cruddace said at Games Day UK, the WD and what was said on Facebook by GW: Digital Editions.

The bearded one
06-10-2013, 01:24
If Iyanden and farsight enclaves are anything to go by, the fluff section will be fairly massive.

Zion
06-10-2013, 01:33
If Iyanden and farsight enclaves are anything to go by, the fluff section will be fairly massive.

Likely a return of the old 2nd Ed fluff given some new life.

corps
06-10-2013, 01:55
No new units? No new vehicule? No flyer? No Return of old unit? Air strike missile launcher too, militia too. I hope RC could have been more specific.

Zion
06-10-2013, 02:23
No new units? No new vehicule? No flyer? No Return of old unit? Air strike missile launcher too, militia too. I hope RC could have been more specific.

I doubt we're getting anything that doesn't have a model or a kit. Unless we can take Empire Flagellates as Zealots or something,

Spiney Norman
06-10-2013, 08:00
No new units? No new vehicule? No flyer? No Return of old unit? Air strike missile launcher too, militia too. I hope RC could have been more specific.

This isn't a full codex release, its the white dwarf codex put into digital form with some fiddling. Im fairly certain there wont be any new units in it because there arent going to be any new models accompanying the release.

If I were the optimistic sort I'd hope that penitent engines might get hopped across to elite so I can field them alongside my retributors and exorcists, but I doubt they're even going to change that much, and lets just say that if any of the 'points tweaks' make any of the over pointed stuff cheaper rather than just making some stuff more expensive I will be pleasantly surprised.

Carlosophy
06-10-2013, 14:03
I'd imagine it will be points breaks across the board, if only for financial reasons. Suddenly your army doesn't reach 1850 anymore so you have to crawling to GW who want to sell you lots of expensive metal models :D

I would also hope that some of the rules got a little tweaked. We know Celestine has seen some changes with the Ardent Blade (+2S, probably AP2) and I bet they will have tweaked miraculous intervention as a once-only, deep strike affair rather than the immortality she currently has. It would also be nice if faith powers required a Ld test rather than a specific dice roll.

A.T.
06-10-2013, 14:36
We know Celestine has seen some changes with the Ardent Blade (+2S, probably AP2)If you are referring to the statline on the GW page - those are her 3rd edition numbers.

Spiney Norman
06-10-2013, 15:03
If you are referring to the statline on the GW page - those are her 3rd edition numbers.

Yeah, I'm liking her current profile more, plus the way the current ardent blade works comes in very handy if you have wraith knights to deal with.

Sephillion
06-10-2013, 15:22
expensive metal models :D



It's not like plastic models are any cheaper nowadays... :shifty:

I'm pretty ambiguous about this (not that I play SoB). On one hand, it's good that they are not forgotten. On the other, they seem to be given a second-rate treatment. I'm not sure what it says about possible future releases, or even about a possible future, new codex.

Zion
06-10-2013, 15:36
I'd imagine it will be points breaks across the board, if only for financial reasons. Suddenly your army doesn't reach 1850 anymore so you have to crawling to GW who want to sell you lots of expensive metal models :D
I expect it more because 6th Edition has been nothing but point breaks on infantry all over.


I would also hope that some of the rules got a little tweaked. We know Celestine has seen some changes with the Ardent Blade (+2S, probably AP2) and I bet they will have tweaked miraculous intervention as a once-only, deep strike affair rather than the immortality she currently has. It would also be nice if faith powers required a Ld test rather than a specific dice roll.
As pointed out, those are old rules your seeing on the GW site. I don't know why they bother leaving stats there if they won't update them.

I don't see Miraculous Intervention changing though since it's fine as a rule, just needs to cost you more to field.

A.T.
06-10-2013, 15:45
It's not like plastic models are any cheaper nowadays... :shifty:It would help if they were in boxes rather than blisters - even back in early 5th edition you could buy two boxes of 10 sisters each for 30 from independents.

Spiney Norman
06-10-2013, 15:54
It would help if they were in boxes rather than blisters - even back in early 5th edition you could buy two boxes of 10 sisters each for 30 from independents.

When the 3rd edition WH codex hit sisters were sold in squad boxes containing a veteran superior, 7 sisters with bolt guns, one with Flamer and one with storm bolter, which I think originally were 18 for the set. I bought almost my entire army in that era. About the only thing in the sisters range that is reasonably priced nowerdays is the penitent engine. Which reminds me I should really pick up another one of those just in case they take the opportunity of the new codex to hike the price up to the price point of equivalent plastic kits.

Zion
06-10-2013, 16:12
When the 3rd edition WH codex hit sisters were sold in squad boxes containing a veteran superior, 7 sisters with bolt guns, one with Flamer and one with storm bolter, which I think originally were 18 for the set. I bought almost my entire army in that era. About the only thing in the sisters range that is reasonably priced nowerdays is the penitent engine. Which reminds me I should really pick up another one of those just in case they take the opportunity of the new codex to hike the price up to the price point of equivalent plastic kits.

Immolator kits cost the same price as the Rhino and comes with a bunch of extra parts, and can make a Rhino or an Immolator (plus you can swap the two).

The Exorcist kit costs the same price as a Space Marine Predator kit as well, so that's not that far out there.

corps
07-10-2013, 01:45
At least if we could use other minis range to represent the Frateris militia will be a boon even ifit just a minor one. I could use my Knight empire on cold blood.

Spiney Norman
07-10-2013, 09:32
At least if we could use other minis range to represent the Frateris militia will be a boon even ifit just a minor one. I could use my Knight empire on cold blood.

What would you suggest? They rehash the redemptionist gang from Necromunda and sell that as fraternis militia? IMHO there isn't anything that really fits well with frateris militia, sure you can convert something fairly easily by combining empire flaggellants with some kind of pistols, but that isn't generally how Gw works, if they can't market you a box of models with <unit name> on the front I don't expect them to add the unit to the army list.

Lester
08-10-2013, 18:44
What would you suggest? They rehash the redemptionist gang from Necromunda and sell that as fraternis militia? IMHO there isn't anything that really fits well with frateris militia, sure you can convert something fairly easily by combining empire flaggellants with some kind of pistols, but that isn't generally how Gw works, if they can't market you a box of models with <unit name> on the front I don't expect them to add the unit to the army list.

Well the Grey Knight Codex blatantly suggest using IG Models as Warrior Acolytes. The new SM Codex has a White Scars Sergeant using a Space Wolves head (and says it too). So while it is very rare, GW has done it.


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