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Orion_76
27-09-2013, 04:07
Hi guys, I have one of those doubts that I cannot find in the BRB. I had an opponent cast fulminating flame cage (hex spell that lasts until next magic phase or until the target unit moves + D6 S4 hits in magic phase also) on my plaguebearers the other day. That same turn he had charged them with a saurus hero on a cold one out of his unit and into a part of my horde where he was not in base contact with either my herald nor my unit champion.

When combat came around, he challenged and if I accepted with either one of them they had to move in order to be in base contact or if I declined he would send my herald to the back rank, meaning in either case the unit would count as having moved and therefore each model in it would suffer a S4 flaming hit.

Two questions concerning this:

1. When the herald or champion is moved because of the challenge, does that count as the unit having moved for the purpose of the spell??

2. If it does -and therefore many wounds are made-, do all of those wounds count towards combat resolution (since the wounds are actually made during the combat phase)??


We weren't sure on it, so I let him have number 1 but not number 2. Would really like to know how this works though, cause I'm thinking all types of nasty evil crap to do to my future rivals (and a good reason to take a level 4 fire mage). Thanks.

Spiney Norman
27-09-2013, 07:13
Hi guys, I have one of those doubts that I cannot find in the BRB. I had an opponent cast fulminating flame cage (hex spell that lasts until next magic phase or until the target unit moves + D6 S4 hits in magic phase also) on my plaguebearers the other day. That same turn he had charged them with a saurus hero on a cold one out of his unit and into a part of my horde where he was not in base contact with either my herald nor my unit champion.

When combat came around, he challenged and if I accepted with either one of them they had to move in order to be in base contact or if I declined he would send my herald to the back rank, meaning in either case the unit would count as having moved and therefore each model in it would suffer a S4 flaming hit.

Two questions concerning this:

1. When the herald or champion is moved because of the challenge, does that count as the unit having moved for the purpose of the spell??

2. If it does -and therefore many wounds are made-, do all of those wounds count towards combat resolution (since the wounds are actually made during the combat phase)??


We weren't sure on it, so I let him have number 1 but not number 2. Would really like to know how this works though, cause I'm thinking all types of nasty evil crap to do to my future rivals (and a good reason to take a level 4 fire mage). Thanks.

1. No, IMHO it should not trigger the spell, the BRB makes it pretty clear that moving the character into B2B is just a visual thing to make the challenge make sense visually, its not the model actually making a move as per the rules on movement, heck the rules even say its not actually necessary to move the model being challenged anyway...
"If for whatever reason this is not possible, assume that the two models are in base contact..."

2. Even if you can argue the opposite for number 1, there is no precedent for the wounds counting towards combat res as they were not inflicted by models on either side if the combat in question.

The thing about flame cage is that it is really a DD spell trying to masquerade as a hex, if they had actually listed it as a DD this would never have come up (because you can't cast a DD spell into combat).

bigbiggles
27-09-2013, 07:57
I really don't think it counts as movement. Half the time I just say they are fighting anyway ( the other half I forget who was supposed to move )
So i feel this is a bit gamey.

Almost positive that no magic damage will count as cc results

Azmodian
27-09-2013, 12:58
"movement" for spells to trigger (had this same issue with the vampire counts bound spell right - cant remember what it's called but similar effects) is only when you move during the movement phase or any other time the "UNIT" has to move... Changing rank and file is not really a "move" for the unit...

It has been described by GW that combat and regiments are not pretty rank and file mini's that are on the board.. Take Orcs for example. I see them standing in a gaggle of a formation that will line up when combat hits, however I picture a snotling or lost goblin running between the ranks playing tag or something like that.

Needless to say no. Moving within ranks doesn't count for the spell - If I am wrong please educate me but I don't think I am.

Artiee
27-09-2013, 13:15
For challenges I would go with no its doesn't count. Character Making Way would go with counts.

Artiee
27-09-2013, 13:21
Needless to say no. Moving within ranks doesn't count for the spell - If I am wrong please educate me but I don't think I am.

If a character in unit moves from one side to the other, the unit is counted has having moved. BRB FAQ

Azmodian
27-09-2013, 14:07
If a character in unit moves from one side to the other, the unit is counted has having moved. BRB FAQ

Learn something new every day... TY

Orion_76
27-09-2013, 14:15
The BRB faq you refer to is this one perhaps??


Q: Can characters change position inside a unit as part of a
normal move?(p97)


A: Yes, as long as they end up in the rank closest to the front
of the unit that has a space in. It is also worth remembering
that even if only the character moves the whole unit will
count as moving that turn. Having a belligerent officer barge
his way through the unit is not conducive to a good round of
shooting!


I'm not sure moving a model for a challenge in combat counts as "part of a normal move"...

Loriel
06-10-2013, 21:01
First of all I have to say dirty trick and I never realized this potential.

RAW sense:
First lets gather rules that dictates this debate

BRB page 102 Refusing a challenge (BOO! HISS!)...Move the model...

BRB page 102 Fighting a Challenge
If a character accepts the challenge, move him... ... if, for whatever reason, this is not possible, assume that the two models are in base contact.

BRB Page 492 Fulminating Flame Cage
...If the target unit moves for any reason,...

BRB FAQ v. 1.8
Q: If a character tries to leave a unit that is afected bythe Net
of Amyntok (or another similar spell or ability such as a
Fulminating Flame Cage) including if he tries to charge out of it,
is he required to take a Strength test? Also, if the test is failed,
will any resulting damage hit only the character? (Reference)
A: Yes to both question. Though it is worth noting that a
test is not required if he leaves without moving, through the
Smoke and Mirrors lore attribute for example

Q: Can characters change position inside a unit as part of a
normal move?(p97)
A: Yes, as long as they end up in the rank closest to the front
of the unit that has a space in. It is also worth remembering
that even if only the character moves the whole unit will
count as moving that turn. Having a belligerent officer barge
his way through the unit is not conducive to a good round of
shooting!

Adding FAQ help to mix. Key word here is that moves for any reason. That is pretty hard to read in any other way. And if there is movement of anykind it would trigger the effect. But if it is not possible to move characters in base contact for challenge I would state no effect in RAW.

This also applies to also to make way movement. This actually got me thinking about Shrinking units.

BRB page 61 Shrinking units and multiple fights
Whenever a unit becomes stranded in this manner, the attacking unit is immediately nudged (by as small an ammount as possible) to bring it back into contact with the foe. This move cannot be used....

So only real way to benefit this would have a rear / 1 wide unit flank charge, survive it for one round not reform and cast hex next turn. But this got me thinking dirty exploits. I cannot find anything that would deny reforming rear to opponent, save. command group requirement to be in front rank(page 92 Position within the unit), and you cannot take them off from base contact with the combat reform ruling (BRB Page 55 Combat reform)... Well not the best trick in sleeves, but certainly fun ;) Actually that addition in BRB FAQ/ERRATA baffles me. If I understand it correctly, it actually denies combat reform to be used to change facing at all. perhaps I missed it in some parts, and I have to look it again tomorrow after I have slept a little ;) ...

RAI / FLUFF sense:

Well as mentioned before it is part of the fight that models will "move" inside the unit thus fluffwise they would trigger the effect of movement everytime they battle. Fulminating Flame Cage flavor text gives a hint of it's fluff mechanic. It does a fiery prison. Way I would see it that every model is encapsulated inside a flaming bars that can be moved through with some painful. Fluffy would have only the character and models he will be pushing from his way to get hits.

RAI: I think GW intended to have some conditional effects and buff/debuff in game. Say condition moved is true then something happens. That FAQ hints that matter little bit.

In conclusion:

Since in my view both RAW & RAI would suggest towards it I would say it will trigger the effect.

---------------------------

Combat resolution question. Lets do RAW first

RAW sense:

BRB Page 52 Wounds inflicted
Each side's basic combat result is equal to the wounds caused in the combat...

Ok. This breaks down to the important definition of combat... And as with GW this is extremely hard to say what does that really mean. Best definition to that term (at least what I could find is from page 46 Close Combat Phase Sequence) and way I would interpret it is that combat is something that starts when player whose turn is nominates which combat, but that is pretty flimsy interpret on my behalf. I actually failed to find pure RAW that would say that it has to be melee swings that gives combat resolution... That doesn't mean that there isn't it and I do hope someone finds it...

Fluff RAI sense:
This is pretty staight forward and for me RAI is clearly seen in many places through out the BRB. If it would count for combat resolution that would be mentioned. For example Breath weapon, impact hits, many magic items has special mention that they count towards combat resolution. In RAW sense those rules are very strongly written, for example if it would just some clarification (that we sure hope from GW) they would have something like "note: these also counts towards combat resolution as default suggest" etc. Another category of RAI is balance, and having this kind of combat resolution boon to any fight with plenty of R&R models would certainly flip the scale of battle incredible much. So RAI perspective I would deny combat resolution from this. Another thing that baffles me is that stand and shoot doesn't count towards combat resolution... Well there is that slight chance to evoke panic test while opponent tries to charge. And it has nothing to do with the matter at hand, so lets move on ;)

Fluff is something quite different. Lets say that you are fighting with lowly peasant against anything and all of a suddenly half your comrades burns horribly screaming at the same time as your enemy hacks and slashes your friends into pieces. Outside combat this almost always causes panic test (at least in some minor units). In combat best way to "simulate" the effect of panic would give combat resolution to opponent for this horrible deed. Then again how would we see for example some template/vortex spell that scatters accidently inside the unit and deals havoc. We all certainly could agree that since it happens in magic phase surely it will not count toward combat resolution...

In conclusion:

This is pretty hard for me to decide how I would play it... My usual way of thinking is to study what is RAW in it's purest form. Then mix in RAI/FLUFF. And finally make the choice with occam's razor principle. Since RAW isn't too clear, and fluff is something that is nice but really doesn't fit in rules I would go for my RAI interpret on this matter, since it is the most clearest for me.

So I wouldn't count those wounds towards combat resolution

bigbiggles
09-10-2013, 06:52
I always picture flame cage as a ring around the whole unit, not each guy. So character movement was fine in my fluff

Blinder
09-10-2013, 17:55
I wouldn't really consider the might-happen-for-visual-and-attacks-shenanigans shifting of a character during a challenge part of a "normal move," which is what the FAQ addresses. Similarly, a unit being nudged due to a shrinking enemy seems like it would be a pretty hard sell for triggering "unit moves" effects (would these trigger if a unit was "nudged" for clarity after a neighbor was charged, as is suggested at times in the rules?). Combat Reforms are a fairly safe "yes" because they refer directly back to Reforms, which are a move, and I could see good reason to consider Make Way as triggering the effect as well as it is "significant" rather than "cinematic" (challenges blocking off attacks between the remainder of two units and such has always seemed to be an unattended unintended side-effect, as the rules make a point that having the characters face off is for show and not actually required).

Loriel
09-10-2013, 22:53
FAQ gives official intend and sometimes it can be used to dig out intentions on matter that are similar (that is the best document to get that kind of information). Lets make a hypothesis that FAQ would have dictated that character leaving unit or character that would just use "normal move" to change position, or if it stated that if unit reforms and only characters change place it wouldn't consider whole unit as moved for purpose of shooting / other effects. (For me that would be much more sensible, when thinking it lorewise). If that would be the case in FAQ it would be pretty easy to say that GW intented this boolean "is unit considered moved" is false for make ways, challenges movement, nudges. Now the FAQ just gives hints other wise. Character leaving the unit will trigger boolean condition to true and FAQ is pretty clear for the matter. And it is rather easy to lead to conclusion that other similar effect would be considered "moved". IMO Errata is readed with RAW, FAQ is readed with RAWish RAI. But I am not trying to convince anybody on the matter purely on RAI perspective since RAI/fluff consideration is too subjective. I am simply pointing out some nuances that I have found on the matter.

That is true that rules for challenge has flavored text with cinematic idea. But there is strong ruling about the procedures that has to be followed (if you intent to follow the rules in game). It is pretty odd to say that because there is some "fun additional sentences" inside rules text that it would nullify perfectly stated rules afterwards? And rules states very clearly that character has to be moved in base contact, and if it not possible for some very strange situation, say different base sized character in side of horde and main battle is fighting in the middle of the horde (as illustrated by my epic ascii skills below ;) ) In that case you cannot do it then you don't do it. But I do agree that this isn't "strongest" possible rule statement, but in normal battle I don't see any reason why you couldn't move characters to base contact. I wouldn't say that because you have models that is perfectly fitted to be in exact places inside the unit (say black orcs which can be really pain in the ass to have perfectly fitted) that you "couldn't do it". Way I would say that, we would agree with my opponent that this character is really in the place of that rank&file and perhaps we would put marker next to it or something, and work it out, then use all the rules that applies after that as if it were there and moved there (Personally I hate that challenge/attack deny ruling very much. Bad(or good) challenges can really deny lots of attacks... And that no where to run, nowhere to hide is perhaps the worst ruling ever in this game... speaking as poor general of star dragon prince that was beaten by some lowly peasants or what the hell they were...) And I agree also that there is RAI hint inside those flavored additions, but I for one really fail to see them clearly.

.....C
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RAW is pretty clear on matter. There is movement there for trigger moves for any reason is fullfilled. But because many of the rules in game is really... bad ... this matter is perhaps best to be judged by house ruling / the most important rule principle. But when making any decision about any house ruling or anything, imo it is very important to understand what is RAW on the matter. (I have started to use Make Way! + Command Group rules as good example that if you do RAW hammering on the matter, then you quickly realize that if you deny command group pushed to second rank all the other ruling becomes clearer and lots of very strange situations will dissipate Here is the link to that thread if anybody cares ;) http://z4.invisionfree.com/Khemri/index.php?showtopic=13966.)