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View Full Version : Would you allow Forge World Primarch's into regular 40k games?



The Emperor
28-09-2013, 07:00
So I didn't find out until just the other day that not only has Forge World started publishing stats for Primarch's, but they've started releasing miniatures for them as well, and so far there're figures for Fulgrim and Angron, with Ferrus Manus on the way. The moment I heard THAT visions of Roboute Guilliman leading my Ultramarines and punching Eldar Avatars in the face started dancing around in my head, but I was wondering what the general consensus was on Forge World Primarch's. Are you totally open to the idea of your opponent using one, are you totally against, are you somewhere in the middle for whatever reason?

m1acca1551
28-09-2013, 07:10
Being a fluff bunny if say no, and that 30k doesn't really scale to well with 40k... I'd still say no. Primarchs are butchers, plain and simple I think they are way to OP for 40k battle boards.

Sircyn
28-09-2013, 07:15
If my opponent has gone to the trouble and expense of a 30k army and I get to use the same foc (instead of an extra chart at 2k you get the lord of war slot etc) then I'd be game.

It would need to be a planned campaign or narrative game though, if you fancy adding fulgrim to your triple helkdrake list and saying "surprise!" You won't make many friends.

A 40k campaign with plausible resurrection of a surviving loyalist Primarch could be interesting with a little effort.

The Emperor
28-09-2013, 07:16
D'oh! I tried including a poll but I had too many characters. :p As far as gradations of opinion go, I was wondering if anyone who's open to the idea of allowing Primarch's, what restrictions would you impose, if any, based on the fluff? Would you say to your opponent "You can take a Primarch, but ONLY if it's one which, according to the fluff, is still currently active, like the Daemon Prince Primarch's (I.E. Angron, Fulgrim, Magnus the Red, etc)"? Would you be willing to grant more leeway and allow the use of a Primarch who, according to the fluff, isn't definitively dead and could possibly come back, and for whom there are fluff suggestions that they could return (I.E. Leman Russ, Lion El'Jonson, Roboute Guilliman)? Or are you open to the use of all the Primarch's, fluff considerations be damned? "You want to use Sanguinius in your Blood Angels army? Go ahead." Just wondering what peoples thoughts were not just on their use, but on the fluff considerations as well.

Marshal_Loss
28-09-2013, 07:49
If they use a Horus Heresy list - which means you'll need over 2000 points to field a Primarch - then yeah, sure. I play my 40k army against 30k armies and my 30k army against 40k armies with no issues.

Inquisitor Shego
28-09-2013, 08:04
I would, just like I'd play 2k with a stompa or something. I just wouldn't play it seriously, you know?

Kakapo42
28-09-2013, 08:16
I'm not entirely sure what the rules for them are, but if they were in a proper 30k list then sure why not. It helps that I myself have visions of turning Primarchs into thin paste from a very great distance with railgun armed Hammerheads dancing in my head.

agurus1
28-09-2013, 08:16
well I would (since I use a 30k rules now for all of my games) because of two factors. If you play a game with an opponent not using 30k rules they are supposed to use the Age of Darkness FOC too. That means that at the same point value that the 30k player can get a Lord of War choice (see Primarch) the 40k player can choose their own Apocalypse or Superheavy unit. SOOOO technically it will be balanced out at that point, I get Purturabo, you get Stompa/Warhound/Baneblade what have you lol

Kakapo42
28-09-2013, 08:17
That means that at the same point value that the 30k player can get a Lord of War choice (see Primarch) the 40k player can choose their own Apocalypse or Superheavy unit. SOOOO technically it will be balanced out at that point, I get Purturabo, you get Stompa/Warhound/Baneblade what have you lol

Hmmmmmm.. Primarch versus Manta...

Sir Didymus
28-09-2013, 08:31
Sure. I wouldn't deny anyone the chance to put some minis on the table.

But I'm not really into herohammering, where one model dominates the scene and the rest of the army cheers him on. Its fun as a gimmick, but makes for poor games in the long run - just like playing spam lists.

jri0t68
28-09-2013, 08:46
Hmmmmmm.. Primarch versus Manta...

Lol. How many points is a manta/one of the the primarchs?

Inquisitor Shego
28-09-2013, 08:52
I think you're forgetting one thing, guys. Imagine the glory if you take him down. That's bragging rights on your friend forever. Killing his captain is meh. Killing his Primarch? Hell, that goes on a resume

Mandragola
28-09-2013, 10:52
Primarchs aren't really a massive deal actually. The challenge rules kind of hamper them. I've come up against Fulgrim in 30k and he fell over without too much fuss.

I'm actually really looking forward to seeing a late heresy traitor legion force, with daemon Primarchs and all that good stuff.

Kijamon
28-09-2013, 11:11
Primarchs aren't all THAT brilliant. If you get in to hand to hand, everything nearby dies (at least with Angron).

However I wouldn't stop someone using the 30k list against me. I have a bit of experience with 30k lists so I know the abilities.

If you try to merge the best of all worlds and just play codex SM with a primarch, no. The 30k list has some serious weaknesses, such as no marine has ATSKNF.

However if you use the 30k army list, play by the Lords of War rules, let me do the same, I'd be game. Other suggestions have been to allow every 40k codex to double the maximum troop counts in a unit, to combat the 20man tactical squads. That all makes it a lot closer in my eyes.

OuroborosTriumphant
28-09-2013, 11:14
I'd be willing to give in a go by special arrangement; I'd want to know before I wrote my list and ideally, I'd like to be using the Age of Darkness rules for both armies (not necessarily the Legion army list, I'd be up for giving Mortarion and his 40k-era Death Guard a match) and I'd like to be able to go "Actually, that didn't feel fair at the end of the day, can we not do that again?" if it felt like I had never had a chance.

But sure, I'll try anything once except incest and folk-dancing.

Retrospectus
28-09-2013, 11:26
I'm not entirely sure what the rules for them are, but if they were in a proper 30k list then sure why not. It helps that I myself have visions of turning Primarchs into thin paste from a very great distance with railgun armed Hammerheads dancing in my head.

T6 eternal warrior, 3+ or 4+ invulnerable save. it will not die..... good luck

Kakapo42
28-09-2013, 11:27
T6 eternal warrior, 3+ or 4+ invulnerable save. it will not die..... good luck

..... we're going to need a bigger railgun...

Retrospectus
28-09-2013, 11:27
Primarchs aren't really a massive deal actually. The challenge rules kind of hamper them. I've come up against Fulgrim in 30k and he fell over without too much fuss.

I'm actually really looking forward to seeing a late heresy traitor legion force, with daemon Primarchs and all that good stuff.

Angron can challenge every character in a combat at the same time. and gets extra attacks when he wins (not if)

Reinholt
28-09-2013, 13:19
In a normal game? No.

Primarchs go hand in hand with Lords of War. So if we are talking an apocalypse game or a game where the other side also gets access to super-heavies, titans, etc, then yes.

Poseidal
28-09-2013, 13:27
If I get to use my own fan rules too.

Menthak
28-09-2013, 14:09
As a a joke yes, a case of how many Tyranids can the Primarch take before he falls.

In a serious game I would if I could use super heavies and the such.

Fluxeor
28-09-2013, 14:18
In terms of rules, unless it's an agreed game using FW rules on both sides, then no. But the models themselves in a regular game, definitely, if you're using them as a chapter master or captain (or chaos lord for those applicable) for your 40k army.

Radium
28-09-2013, 14:53
If you're using all the rules required to use on the them? Sure. I'd appreciate a heads up before the game though.
I'm not too worried about taking one of 'em down anyway. That's what Fire Dragons are for anyway.

Draquenoire
28-09-2013, 15:02
It doesn't matter really. Killed Fulgrim the other day with a daemon prince in a 1500 pt game. It was a pretty fun game actually.

Khorneguy
28-09-2013, 18:16
If I get to use my own fan rules too.

What do you mean 'fan rules'? Forge World is perfectly official in normal games.

The Black Shield
28-09-2013, 18:33
In a friendly game, yes, but someone has to have the rules for the character.

The Emperor
28-09-2013, 18:43
Primarchs aren't really a massive deal actually. The challenge rules kind of hamper them. I've come up against Fulgrim in 30k and he fell over without too much fuss.

I'm actually really looking forward to seeing a late heresy traitor legion force, with daemon Primarchs and all that good stuff.

Yeah, I'd very much like to see stats for the Chaos Primarch's as they are now, not as they were before the Heresy. Like the Daemon Prince Angron that an army of Grey Knights faced off against, or the Daemon Prince Magnus the Red who attacked Fenris long after the Horus Heresy ended and killed the Great Wolf of that era. THAT would be neat!

Though I'd still like to see stats for Roboute Guilliman, Leman Russ, and Lion El'Jonson, among others, and use the fluff justification that they've finally returned after their long recovery, absence, nap, whatever. I remember when I first heard about the Wulfen for the Codex: Eye of Terror and, for a while there, I genuinely thought that Leman Russ would come roaring out of the Eye of Terror, too, but sadly no such luck.

Carlosophy
28-09-2013, 18:50
I would love to see Fulgrim take on my Avatar for real, so heck yes!

They would be good in a proper friendly game of herohammer: Only HQ choices are allowed.

The Emperor
28-09-2013, 19:02
They would be good in a proper friendly game of herohammer: Only HQ choices are allowed.

Yeah, my intent here is using the Primarch in the appropriate Codex army list, not using the 30k army lists (I.E. A Chaos Marine player uses the regular Codex: Chaos Space Marines except he could select Fulgrim as an HQ choice). Although yeah, it is fair that someone be allowed a super-heavy or equivalent to balance that out.

Angelwing
28-09-2013, 23:19
Yes i would, but I'd need a heads up first to make sure my list actually had something to balance it out a bit.

Rolsheen
29-09-2013, 00:31
I've played a couple of games now with both Fulgrim and Angron using Codex CSM and while they are a bit harder to kill, their not impossible. Angron especially is a easy target in the open because of his comparitivly low save. We've added them to the Lords of the Black Crusade as well for our Apoc games, which makes for an intresting game but thankfully not one sided

Fizzy
29-09-2013, 01:50
Of course :D (Only have legion armies). My friends accept it as well. We are testing out different things to make it more even.

Xerkics
29-09-2013, 02:07
At the Dawn oF time Primarch Sanguinius meets Necron Overlord BuddyCronHotep

BuddyCronHotep: Yo Sanguinis Meet Mindshackle Scarabs:

Sanguinis: Dude but we just...OW!
BuddyCronHotep : Stop Hitting Yourself, Stop Hitting yourself....Eventually both get really Bored And walk away
And since then Both Necrons and Blood Angles only fight as bros , i guess other Primarchs didnt get the memo :p

Elodin
29-09-2013, 02:19
Honestly, if my opponent went to the trouble of buying expensive Forgeworld models AND the $100 book that goes along with it to get the rules, then I would be happy to let them use the Primarch at least once or twice.

If I find that it's too overwhelming, then I'd probably put a limit on it, but seeing as I desperately wish I could field my own Emperor's Children 30k army and I would want my opponent to do the same for me, I can't really say otherwise. (Seriously, I've had to convince myself against taking out loans so I could buy that Pre-Heresy EC multiple times now.)


Edit:

Ahh I'm sorry I think I misunderstood what you meant. What I was saying is, if my opponent had a WH 30k list and they wanted to play it against my 40k list I would be more than happy to. If they are just throwing in a 30k Lord of War into their 40k list, then I would be less willing to allow that to happen. I know that might sound like a stupid point, but I feel like the Primarch was balanced around his forces, not the 40k ones.

Nymie_the_Pooh
29-09-2013, 03:36
I'd be fine with it as long as we are playing by the same rules. I don't necessarily feel the need to know you are bringing a Primarch, but knowing what the FoC and such is before I build my list would endear me to play even if he's unpainted. I might go for it without any prewarning once or twice if the model and army are well done.

agurus1
29-09-2013, 04:08
I definetly think that Primarchs should only be used alongside a 30k list. Their rules were made to be balanced against the inthe unis within a 30k army list with its built in weaknesses (no ATSKNF for instance). And I have to reiterate since most people posting here didn't seem to read it the first time: BOTH SIDES HAVE TO USE THE 30k FOC!!! THIS MEANS THAT IF THE HORUS HERESY ARMY IS USING A PRIMARCH THE OTHER 40k LIST GETS A SUPERHEAVY/APOCALYPSE UNIT TOO!

Fizzy
29-09-2013, 04:21
I definetly think that Primarchs should only be used alongside a 30k list. Their rules were made to be balanced against the inthe unis within a 30k army list with its built in weaknesses (no ATSKNF for instance). And I have to reiterate since most people posting here didn't seem to read it the first time: BOTH SIDES HAVE TO USE THE 30k FOC!!! THIS MEANS THAT IF THE HORUS HERESY ARMY IS USING A PRIMARCH THE OTHER 40k LIST GETS A SUPERHEAVY/APOCALYPSE UNIT TOO!

That is FW's recommendation. They tell us to try out different ways of balancing up games of 30K vs 40K. Because honestly I played 1000pts Legion army vs 1000pts orks. I lost 10 marines and killed an ork army.

Konovalev
29-09-2013, 04:21
Having read the rules for the primarchs I wouldn't mind. They don't appear to be that much more powerful than Draigo, Lysander, or Swarmlord, and they are insanely expensive points wise at 300+. It wouldn't be that terribly difficult to just kite or tarpit the primarchs since they are most dangerous in close combat. You consider they will probably have an entourage of elite CC troops, and an assault transport like a storm raven or land raider and you're looking at a unit that pushed 1000 points by itself.

agurus1
29-09-2013, 04:41
That is FW's recommendation. They tell us to try out different ways of balancing up games of 30K vs 40K. Because honestly I played 1000pts Legion army vs 1000pts orks. I lost 10 marines and killed an ork army.

That sounds about right :chrome: yeah even playing a heavily themed Iron Warrior army I'm pulling out some pretty big wins when I do win. I think in most cases it's down to unfamiliarity with the list and the rules. Most people aren't used to blobs of marines with FNP (since blood angels went out of vogue) with some gnarly heavy support. Honestly I don't think it would be a primarch that would cause problems but underestimating the basic troops. Most of my games were won because people didn't begin targeting the Tactical Squads until it was too late "FNP what? Fury of the Legion what?" I mean I explain all of the rule and point out what's what beforehand, but most people just don't get it until they are on the receiving end once. I have a feeling any round twos won't be so lopsided.

The Emperor
29-09-2013, 06:16
*sigh* If only Forge World miniatures weren't so expensive. I'd kill to have a Legion army, with or without a Primarch.

I'm serious, by the way. I would kill any one of you in exchange for a 2,000 point Legion army. o_O

YourChapterMaster
29-09-2013, 07:45
Normal games definitely not. Regular FW is always fine but the primarchs come from a different game system even if it seem similar. Maybe at 2500 points and the other person had one also, or you just used heresy rules.

Spider-pope
29-09-2013, 11:14
If someone at GW Liverpool has a Primarch model i'd ask, nay, demand they use them in a regular 40k game. To have such brilliant models facing me on the tabletop would be a real treat, sod the rules.

Sqallum
29-09-2013, 14:55
Let them have the Age of Darkness Force Organisation Chart, and increase their maximum squad sizes by 10. Then, give them a 250 point advantage first time you play. Second time, 150. Third time, evens :)

Poseidal
29-09-2013, 15:10
Yeah, I'd very much like to see stats for the Chaos Primarch's as they are now, not as they were before the Heresy. Like the Daemon Prince Angron that an army of Grey Knights faced off against, or the Daemon Prince Magnus the Red who attacked Fenris long after the Horus Heresy ended and killed the Great Wolf of that era. THAT would be neat!

Though I'd still like to see stats for Roboute Guilliman, Leman Russ, and Lion El'Jonson, among others, and use the fluff justification that they've finally returned after their long recovery, absence, nap, whatever. I remember when I first heard about the Wulfen for the Codex: Eye of Terror and, for a while there, I genuinely thought that Leman Russ would come roaring out of the Eye of Terror, too, but sadly no such luck.

They actually did stats for Angron at Armageddon for an apocalypse scenario a few years back for that very scenario.

He was pretty good, I would say on par with the current GW Avatar or Bloodthirster but with a few more special abilities (Instant Death sword, leadership penalty on enemies).

Azazel
29-09-2013, 20:33
Sure you can use your primarch, so long as you don't mind me using my An'ggrath.

Mr_Rose
29-09-2013, 22:46
Sure you can use your primarch, so long as you don't mind me using my An'ggrath.

Angron vs An'ggrath? Sold!
Just use the age of darkness FoC and everything's good.

cuda1179
30-09-2013, 05:13
Is it just me, or are the current primarchs simply "super" versions of the special characters we all ready have. Angron seems to simply be Kharn on steroids. Horus seems like a super Abbadon.

Warsmith Tharak
30-09-2013, 07:14
That is becouse Angron and Kharn they are both beat-sticks. I do not see the Horus/Abbadon since Horus have alot of special rules witch helps him deploy and sice the initive.
It is some simalarity betwine Fulgrim/Lucious but not alot likenes With Mortarion/Typhus.

I would relishe the chance to take Down a primarch in 40K, and when Gulliman gets relesed it will happen (or more likely in 30k)

IcedCrow
30-09-2013, 14:55
wouldn't bother me.

cuda1179
30-09-2013, 20:57
I had to see how this would work out on the board. I let a friend take Angron in his 40k Worldeaters list against my Necron list. We were playing at 2500 points, on a 8x4 board. We decided to treat Angron similarly to a superheavy in Apoc, and also decided that since he had Angron I could take an unbound C'Tan shard to even things up.

Well, we each wanted to see what would happen when the big baddies faced eachother. Angron in a Landraider with Berserker backup. I used VOD to teleport in a unit of Immortals, which destroyed the Landraider, and then shot with the C'tan shard. It killed Angron and all but two berserkers in a SINGLE round of shooting.

For this reason, I believe that the Primarchs are NOT too over-the top to be included in a 40k list. Just as long as the opponent is aware of it, it is a 2500 point game or higher, and he is allowed a superheavy as well.

FashaTheDog
01-10-2013, 01:36
So I didn't find out until just the other day that not only has Forge World started publishing stats for Primarch's...

No wonder you were voted worst father of the millennium two millenniums in a row. Kind of explains how you also got blindsided by the whole Horus Heresy thing, what with neglecting your sons so you could lock yourself in your basement to work on your hobby. ;)

As for would I allow Primarchs, I would have to face them, no two ways about it. Bring any and all Primarchs you dare. My Death Korps of Krieg will eagerly drop them with artillery and lasgun fire! Even if offered a super heavy I'd refuse for artillery, Lucius pattern lasguns, and bayonets are all I need to overcome all obstacles!

LordofDestruction1992
01-10-2013, 18:13
I would just so I could say my chaos marines had killed a primarch :D

Fizzy
01-10-2013, 18:25
*sigh* If only Forge World miniatures weren't so expensive. I'd kill to have a Legion army, with or without a Primarch.

I'm serious, by the way. I would kill any one of you in exchange for a 2,000 point Legion army. o_O'

I want to tease you... I got 3 Legion armies!. Sorry I just had to. Save money though. I sold everything I did not need and saved tons of money. I also wished for models from FW for my birthday and Christmas eve's.

gwarsh41
01-10-2013, 21:55
I wouldn't allow it in a pickup game, but if a friend asked if I wanted to play against his primarch I would be OK with it... assuming he wanted to play against my brass scorpion or Gargantuan unclean one.