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Soulless
30-09-2013, 09:46
First post -on the sense of making this now - the recent rumour leak (fact leak would be more appropriate) gives us the ability to speak about fundamentals now and go deep into the details when everyone have their own copy.

1 Topic - Army Rules

Asf
MP
+1 to cast
Hatred for our HE brothers

Good set ? Best for what ? What units benefit the most from it ?

Soulless
30-09-2013, 09:48
Reserved for magic and magic items

Soulless
30-09-2013, 09:49
Troops selection

Dark Elves Spearman – the old time classic of any Dark Elf army. In this edition we attack from 3 ranks so the default frontage of 5 will dish out 15 A (+1 if champ is taken). Those attacks will most often reroll to hit and reroll 1 to wound. As stated in the overall army description dark elves are masters of S/T manipulation so S of 3 isn’t as bad as it sounds. The default roles for this unit is – anvil duty (albeit pretty weak anvil), and dagger battery. As the dagger will seen most often the FCG (full command group) 30 strong unit of spears is the staple in my roster selection. This ads beef and bodies – not great for the swift strike force but great if you want to decimate your opponent with bodies and infantry. The classical way of war is blocks of infantry supported by smaller more specialized units that specialize in different fields. If you want to go this way – take warriors – almost always.

“A short reason never to take swordsman – think my brother dark elves – do you really want to get your lavishly cloths soaked in animal blood? With a spear I can deliver the killing blow from safe distance and not get stained by unworthy monkeys that I slaughter” - Drachau Soulless

Corsairs – the pirates of Naggaroth – now improved with the whole core selection through the army wide rules but also for the new sea dragon pelt – err I mean cloak. We receive a unit that not only has access to 2hw option (with the new rules this gives exactly the same number of attacks as 15 spearman but from only 10 guys in 2 ranks of 5), on top of it we get 4+ save. Against our brothers that sport arrows it’s pretty decent save. All in all the use of the unit is dictated by the role you want them to play. If you are looking for better anvil then spears – for 2 points more be my guest – unit of 30 with FCG should be your thing. If you want a cheep guard for your hill of RbT take 10 in 2 ranks of 5 and RhB. The 20 shots will make any tunnel or ambush unit think twice before getting close. In themed army this unit is great and makes ark armies possible – good job GW.

Crossbowman – Ahh the legendary RxB – the weapon that defined us for so long and is feared by the enemy. AP is in so we have low S but -1AP – that’s nice. The new rules let us use 2 ranks for shooting. That gives us 2 options. One is Big unit of 20 with standard of eternal flame (fire attacks for ethereal and regeneration removal) – dishes out 40 shoots and that will hurt from time to time. Or you can do this the usual way – 10 naked crossbows – cheep and simple – short front and ability to seem insignificant to the enemy – yet capable of taking down flankers through the mix of shooting and surprise close combat skills (effect of ASF and MP). I won’t leave my tower without 1 unit.

Dark Riders – Well for the core units this one is my personal favorite. It epitomizes all there is about Dark Elves – speed, hard hitting, ranged bait, maneuverability. They need to be taken with shield and RxB. If fully equipped let’s look what they can do. With 9” movement they seem to fly around the flanks of enemy. With RxB they lay down 10 shots – 10 potential hits (with the premise of RxB>LB). With spears they get 5 S4 attacks and 5 S3 attacks on charge most often re rolling to hit and 1 to wound from the riders. On top of that 4+ save. All this (with musician) costs least from all core choices that you can take (and are viable). 1 unit is almost always a must (for all the utility that it brings to the table).

Witch Elves – The brides of Khaine. Sole reason for few suicides when the rumors of their ability’s hit the warseer community. Pretty decent unit in my book but not like some try to make them – answer to all things and the omni-solution. The fact is frenzy, extra hand weapon and we have 3 basic attacks from each. On top of that they sport poison as always. That’s bucket load of attacks that can generate some great combat result. There are 2 main ways of using them. I like to take 1 unit of 20 FCG - this is cheap enough. Gives my opponent good target to worry about and make mistakes during the all important resource allocation. If I want to go to town I add a Hag to the mix with Witch Brew and she is 21 model I line them 3 rows of 7. That way I maximize the damage potential vs normal infantry Death Hag can go with ogre blade – for 6S she will be a threat for all the ogres and big bullies out there. The second option is the altar unit of 30 witches and hag on altar. Great – strong – but it involves you making this the theme of your army OR at least your main tactical asset (in games of 2400 pts or less). It costs fortune (in points), it involves spending over 300 pts on 1 unit from hero slot (if you plan on master and sorceress it may be tight squeeze), and quite frankly it puts a lot of eggs in one very beautiful but fragile basket.

Soulless
30-09-2013, 09:50
Special selection

Repeater Bolt Thrower – The old time best unit of my army. My crews are so old and I have so many of them (about 15 I think from all editions) that each time I tell a story of what they killed young dark elves ask what is this unit from X edition that I’m talking about :D. Through my history of usage I have killed pretty much everything with either solid bolt or a salvo. Now they are finally priced right and in the spot that I want to see them. With the special – rare selection the 4 of them are constant in my armies. If you plan to take them take into consideration how will you defend them – they are best used with some units to help them deal with harasser so they can focus fire on important targets. I mainly use 10 corsairs or 5 dark riders for guard duty. They are also best when used with the counter strike philosophy and not all out attack or can’t touch this – and that seem to rule tables nowadays.

Cold One Chariot – Abbreviated CoC got huge boost in new book. With the cold one 2A per lizard and Knights running the show now (with S4) it gains impressive 6 S4 attacks in rounds following the charge. I would like to stress that the charge itself is impressive d6+1 S5 2A with S6 rerolling to hit AND rerolling 1 to W and 4xS4 attacks will get you large amounts of kills. The chariot itself is pretty tough so it won’t go down easily. Stupidity can be a factor – but bsb will mitigate this. For its points and considering the alternative it is very solid choice to use as a support for big anvil infantry block.

Shades – Swiss army knife, with obligatory great weapons and no other upgrades to stay cheep this is ideal unit to deal with slow chaff and bite the enemy to oblivion. GW makes for impressive S5 on a unit with rerolls of 1 to wound gives them pretty good chance of dragging down eagles and RxB makes hanging in the woods and popping shoots at war machines viable tactic – good initiative lets them survive a charge for common chaff killers. Scout ability lets you surprise your enemy and take advantage of his misguided deployment. There is always possibility of hiding an assassin in larger unit – preferably in more then 2500 pts game and springing him on unsuspecting pray.

Soulless
30-09-2013, 09:51
Reserved for Rare

Soulless
30-09-2013, 09:52
Reserved for Lords & Heroes

Soulless
30-09-2013, 09:55
Reserved for general tactics

Soulless
30-09-2013, 10:07
Ok what had to be reserved for the wisdom my fellow druchii will generate over the course of next few months we can now proceed to the discussion table.

So I think that ASF is very good - puts us in line with the white brothers - we have also more units with elusive I of 6 (DE are just better suited for war) so we will use it pretty often. On the other side we didn't get hit with points increase that much for it so its big plus. Ex are a unit that will benefit hugely from it and with cost as low as it is they are now usable again.

The MP rule we got is a huge boon. Someone did the math and it turns out that extra rank of HE is better BUT it only works if you have ranked units. Ours works all the time. Dark riders ? CoK ? Charioteers ? Basicly if you ever did a charge where you wound on 2+ and said to yourself - i have you now and failed - you know how mind easing this rule is and how more deep it allows us to plan.

+1 to cast dark magic rule. Well this is kind of no brainer - the Dark Magic has high to cast values (more on Dark Magic in next post) so taking lvl 2 mage will lower the cos of the spell by 3 and thats kind of substantial - few key spells become usable on this very level.

Hatred HE - good and fluffy better then no panic - we need all we can get taking back what is ours from those wretched malcontents.

Whats your take ?

cptcosmic
30-09-2013, 10:14
I am happy that DE will get a great book now but DE are, beside a few different units, a better copy of HE.

-many I6 units with army wide ASF.
-All core units can take magic banners but for some reason HE cant.
-Executioners cheaper than WL.
-an army wide rule that also works with lower model count, which is great for an elite army
-Lore is imho better: great hexes, S5 mm sig spell, +1S sig spell with dice generation, save or die spell.
-DE didnt lost dice generation and with their new magic items can build effective covens.
-seadragoncloak gives scaly skin 5+: for 30 points you get 1+ rr AS on foot. white lion cloak cannot even think to compete with that.
-Chariot bolt thrower with S7 and anti monster rules for 30 points more compared to skycutter withonly S5.
-dark riders get shields while reavers dont get barding to match the nice looking models.
-shades are still undercosted better shadow warriors.

pendant lord is gone, a new one is possible that is just as nasty.
1+ RR AS (sea dragon cloak, shield, dawn stone and mount)
3+ ward against shooting and spells (cloak of twilight)
multiple wounds d3 (cloak of twilight)
killing blow (cloak of twilight)
and still 25 points left for e.g. sword of might.

Soundwave
30-09-2013, 10:19
Giggles, i am with you Souless all sounds pretty sweet i like your take. Anyhow i think asf puts us in the super elite catogrey now,we will have to become much more wise with the fact there is going to be less units on the table.
On the flip side M.P is off its tits!;)

Soulless
30-09-2013, 10:29
Giggles, i am with you Souless all sounds pretty sweet i like your take. Anyhow i think asf puts us in the super elite catogrey now,we will have to become much more wise with the fact there is going to be less units on the table.
On the flip side M.P is off its tits!;)

The less units on table is what worries me the least (thx GW for those prices - now even if i got tempted i only have 1 kidney to sell :D) - I'm wondering how tome of furion will effect our magic generation - I think people will start to understand that with this its easy way to get the BIG spell on 4lvl anytime you want it there.

Soundwave
30-09-2013, 10:35
Tome of furion is a biggie,given we have acess to all eight lores now. Dagger is good and the cloak of twighlight is my pick so far. Hydra blade for 100pnts no thankyou.

Rakariel
30-09-2013, 10:47
Thanks for making this thread soulless.

I am also very stoked about this release. So much variaty, so many good units to choose from. There doesn`t really be a letdown unit, item nor lore wise which really baffles me. I do not think they are stronger than HE, just far more offensive. I just can`t stand all this whining as soon as a new book comes out. Hell I too was kinda "WTF stackable wardsave?" when HE hit the shelves but this feeling passes over and its nothing to get worked up about too much tbh. Same here. Yes DE seem to have a fairly strong book but all in all it seems balanced (internally as externally).

I really cannot wait to try all those different builds and units :D

So CoK have 3 attacks in total with the mount. Is there any info yet if the mounts get the racial traits aswell and do have the Knights a 2+ or a 1+ now?

MR. GRUMPY
30-09-2013, 11:12
I was hoping they would tone down Dark elves. So far it seems like I will have to play the inferior elfs another edition.

cptcosmic
30-09-2013, 11:17
I just can`t stand all this whining as soon as a new book comes out.
there is something called game balance to make games fair and fun, seeking for balance is now whining right? :rolleyes:
when some units and rules are basically lazy copy pasted but with something extra than there is obviously something wrong and this is not whining but STATING THE OBVIOUS.

Soulless
30-09-2013, 11:18
From what i see major ubber items had been cut to size - dagger is funny not op now, and ring of hotek is so expensive it will not fit on the champion of a unit and how can it be compered to Banner of World Dragon ? Also - no PoK means no flying lord of you will stand here for as long as I want you too.

Horace35
30-09-2013, 11:23
Tome of furion is a biggie,given we have acess to all eight lores now. Dagger is good and the cloak of twighlight is my pick so far. Hydra blade for 100pnts no thankyou.

Tome of furion is dark magic only. I think you could make practically every one of those magic items work in one way or another. I agree Hydra blade is the weakest but even then, with all the re-rolls and at worst -5WS HKB, you must have a fair chance of HKB something decent?

Soulless
30-09-2013, 11:27
As for power generation. Well we have now few ways left to do it.

Obvious one - the dagger
Not so obvious - 4lvl with ToF and Dark Lore - stick in black guards (they need the S buff the most - or benefit most from it) and cast PoD with 1 dice as the last spell on her (4lvl +1 from racial gets you the level down to 3+) If i score i get 1 extra dice or 2 if i get unlucky and i have to roll ward save then :/ The ToF is there for Soul Stealer - with 36 range on 9 or 18 on 7 its great spell with respectfull 2 dice or 3 dice generating wounds.

So our generation gets us ... 2 to 5 - 6 dice depending on spells that we take and the place we take the dagger on (4lvl). Not anywhere near as potent as it used to be. And it requires taking dark magic or you get stuck with random spells and dagger that works on 4+ ...

Rakariel
30-09-2013, 11:34
there is something called game balance to make games fair and fun, seeking for balance is now whining right? :rolleyes:
when some units and rules are basically lazy copy pasted but with something extra than there is obviously something wrong and this is not whining but STATING THE OBVIOUS.

Its called whining because we have not a single game played so far yet. Theorizing is all good but its just theorizing, we don`t know for sure how the new DE will play in the overall meta. I have been to a pretty big tourney just a few days ago and from 65 people there were 15 HE and 2/3rds of them had a WL horde with the BotWD. Do I whine about that? No because thats just how it is. Its surely not a fair combination but people do take it nonetheless. I especially loath whining if its coming from people who obviously play another strong book (in this case mostly HE). Stackable ward saves, great flying monsters, great magic, broken magic items.. do I need to go on? But I refrain from bashing the HE book just because of that. If a Woodie wants to complain, be my guest they have the right to atleast.

Besides whining about a book does not automatically balance it, or the BotWD would have miracolously vanished into the ether as soon as people knew about it. But please go on, its the same with nearly every book. It will change nothing.

Soulless
30-09-2013, 11:40
Dont feed the troll brother drachau - but i find his whining amusing ... The fact that in Naggaroth i would have to pay for slave girls that will do that - and here I have it for free and on public - let the humiliation continue

Soulless
30-09-2013, 11:44
Just got one revelation - the Warriors are now 9 pts so 1 dice generation cost us 18 pts - not sure if the dagger is that good then :P

cptcosmic
30-09-2013, 11:50
Its called whining because we have not a single game played so far yet. Theorizing is all good but its just theorizing, we don`t know for sure how the new DE will play in the overall meta. I have been to a pretty big tourney just a few days ago and from 65 people there were 15 HE and 2/3rds of them had a WL horde with the BotWD. Do I whine about that? No because thats just how it is. Its surely not a fair combination but people do take it nonetheless. I especially loath whining if its coming from people who obviously play another strong book (in this case mostly HE). Stackable ward saves, great flying monsters, great magic, broken magic items.. do I need to go on? But I refrain from bashing the HE book just because of that. If a Woodie wants to complain, be my guest they have the right to atleast.
tournament results show that HE are midtier at best comped and uncomped, yet some scrubs are still annoyed about WL with BotWD. you obviously dont realise that e.g. fighting some daemon units is just as bad as fighting WL with the banner. you obviously dont realise that the horde with BotWD + magic unit is the only way for HE to compete in tournaments and deal with the deathstar push forward and win game tactics. your comments finally have shown your skill level and credibility which is nonexistent.

comparing similar units, esp. when they are just copies with something EXTRA on top is valid, you dont need to play games to compare that and this is not even close to whining. you are just whining that people are stating the obvious.

Rakariel
30-09-2013, 11:51
Dont feed the troll brother drachau - but i find his whining amusing ... The fact that in Naggaroth i would have to pay for slave girls that will do that - and here I have it for free and on public - let the humiliation continue

Youre right. If others get worked about something like that, be my guest.


tournament results show that HE are midtier at best comped and uncomped, yet some scrubs still whine about WL with BotWD. you obviously dont realise that e.g. fighting some daemon units is just as bad as fighting WL with the banner. you obviously dont realise that the horde with BotWD + magic unit is the only way for HE to compete in tournaments and deal with the deathstar push forward and win game tactics. comparing similar units, esp. when they are just copies with something EXTRA on top is valid, you dont need to play games to compare that and this is not even close to whining. you are just whining that people are stating the obvious.

And you obviously do not realize that childish whining about a miniature game will change absolutely nothing.

Horace35
30-09-2013, 11:56
May not be optimal but I like the black amulet. Reminds me of the rune of spite Ungrim used to have.

cptcosmic
30-09-2013, 11:59
And you obviously do not realize that childish whining about a miniature game will change absolutely nothing.
you are the only one whining about other people comparing units and stating obvious differences. I guess there is no cure for your tunnelvision.

Soulless
30-09-2013, 11:59
Well for 15 pts more it returns wounds - If we can get nice decent sv and slap some magic item on Lord on dragon i would say it is pretty decent. Ok it only works in a challenge but it returns on passed WS so i would say its kinda nice.

dhallnet
30-09-2013, 12:02
pendant lord is gone, a new one is possible that is just as nasty.
1+ RR AS (sea dragon cloak, shield, dawn stone and mount)
3+ ward against shooting and spells (cloak of twilight)
multiple wounds d3 (cloak of twilight)
killing blow (cloak of twilight)
and still 25 points left for e.g. sword of might.

Wasn't the pendant lord usually taken with the crown of command ? With your setup, he is no longer stubborn which makes him inferior.
In fact, for the role he was usually assigned (pining something in place for any amount of time), he should take a selection of items along the line of crown of command and talisman of preservation/dawnstone, something that anybody can do.

Your list of difference between HE and DE is indeed stating the obvious : different armies are different... maybe we all could wait a bit before crying foul.

Rakariel
30-09-2013, 12:06
I guess there is no cure for your tunnelvision.

There is neither one for yours ;)

cptcosmic
30-09-2013, 12:07
The pendant lord was usually taken with the crown of command. With your setup, he is no longer stubborn which makes him inferior.
In fact, for the role he was usually assigned (pining something in place for any amount of time), he should take a selection of items along the line of crown of command and talisman of preservation/dawnstone, something that anybody can do.
his role just changed into assassination. imho he will still be as tough to deal with, 3+ ward against ranged threats and on a flying mount allows you to choose your combat and I think this is the very first lord I will play with the new book, destroying all the new big toys of the other books will be sweat :) the rest will be lvl2 mages spamming power of darkness fueling my warlocks and giving my core units the nice S buff.

Soulless
30-09-2013, 12:17
his role just changed into assassination. imho he will still be as tough to deal with, 3+ ward against ranged threats and on a flying mount allows you to choose your combat and I think this is the very first lord I will play with the new book, destroying all the new big toys of the other books will be sweat :) the rest will be lvl2 mages spamming power of darkness fueling my warlocks and giving my core units the nice S buff.

Oh welcome to the DE family - i was under impression that you play HE form the history of your post but I must confess the bandwagon appeal is strong in DE. I hope you will enjoy learning this new army and contributing to the thread. Also let me make suggestion - before you start to get hyped up proxy some of the minis and see how they do on the table - you might get surprised. Also spamming power of darkness will get those 2lvl killed pretty fast if you plan on rolling well - but then again maybe skaven would suit you better :]

cptcosmic
30-09-2013, 12:19
Oh welcome to the DE family - i was under impression that you play HE form the history of your post but I must confess the bandwagon appeal is strong in DE. I hope you will enjoy learning this new army and contributing to the thread. Also let me make suggestion - before you start to get hyped up proxy some of the minis and see how they do on the table - you might get surprised. Also spamming power of darkness will get those 2lvl killed pretty fast if you plan on rolling well - but then again maybe skaven would suit you better :]
I already have DE. I have a small skaven force from IoB too :cool:


power of darkness is a wound caused by a spell so magic resistance or wards in general will help :)

dhallnet
30-09-2013, 12:33
his role just changed into assassination. imho he will still be as tough to deal with, 3+ ward against ranged threats and on a flying mount allows you to choose your combat and I think this is the very first lord I will play with the new book, destroying all the new big toys of the other books will be sweat :) the rest will be lvl2 mages spamming power of darkness fueling my warlocks and giving my core units the nice S buff.
Assassinate what ? Is 4 STR5 attacks (+peg) going to assassinate "big toys" or anything worth his cost ?

cptcosmic
30-09-2013, 12:37
Assassinate what ? Is 4 STR5 attacks (+peg) going to assassinate "big toys" or anything worth his cost ?
I dont see why he cant. great weapon is also an option.

Rakariel
30-09-2013, 12:44
I`m thinking the same tbh. If you give the lord a GW (hes striking in I), has MP and uses that cloak he gets 4 S6 high WS attacks which get KB and D3 wounds. That sounds pretty sweet imo. On second thought I think it would be even better on a hero character because that ones cheaper and gets +1 W and +1T through the peg. Me like.

dhallnet
30-09-2013, 12:50
Yeah great weapon is a better option already but he isn't 1+ in cc anymore. With a lack of inv. save and being wounded on 2+ against any combat oriented threat, he should be able to outright kill any "big toy" or else he will die.
And he can't do that with 4 attacks (be it S5 or S6). Charging with the peg might help for some additional S4 attacks, but I wouldn't hunt monsters with him.

Edit : Sorry ! I forgot the cloak gives KB and multiwound. It can work.

Rakariel
30-09-2013, 12:51
Heavy armor, SDC, peg = 2+ AS, or use a lance instead of the GW and a shield and hes at a 1+ AS again.

Keeper
30-09-2013, 12:51
Does anyone yet know anything about the corsairs , their point costs and the rules for the handbows are they now pistols granting the bonus cc attack?

Rakariel
30-09-2013, 12:54
They have a 4+ AS now due to SDC being a 5+ scaly skin. Their handbows have a 12 range. I don`t know for sure but I don`t think it grants a bonus attack.

cptcosmic
30-09-2013, 12:56
Heavy armor, SDC, peg = 2+ AS, or use a lance instead of the GW and a shield and hes at a 1+ AS again.
you can also take the dragon helm if you go the GW route which puts him at 1+ AS again.

Rakariel
30-09-2013, 12:57
Yup good idea plus it gives you a 2+ ward against skullcannons and the like.

Soulless
30-09-2013, 14:21
So lets say

Pegasus - as delivery system
CoT - As protection from cannons and other shooting
HE, SdC, Dragon Helm - for 1+ save and extra omp aginst fire attacks
And Ogre Blade for 6S

We have 4A at S6 - due to use of Magic weapon we get ASF Rerolls and MP lets us re roll any 1s - in 1 turn d3 wounds and Kb. The only thing that character lacks is WS if he gets bogged down - BUT - pegasi lets him choose his fights so it can be avoided.

Not over expensive (I think about 280 - 320 pts) and quite interesting set up - for offence that is.

Rakariel
30-09-2013, 14:49
I still think its better to use a hero with that setup. You only lose one attack but you gain +1W and 1+T for free while staying far cheaper than with a dreadlord.

Soulless
30-09-2013, 14:57
Hmmm but going Hero option would mean that we lose ogre blade and +2S - something worth considering. Also i wonder how would Beastmaster work with this item - I don't think we will be able to get much armour for this dude but 3+ ward from shooting on a chariot that shoots monster killing bolts and at the same time makes my kraken better ? I think it can be interesting.

Rakariel
30-09-2013, 15:06
Yeah thats definitly to consider aswell. Hell we have so many different options now I really don`t know where to start :D

Edit: With the hero option I would definitly take a GW. Still striking mostly first due to the high initiative and keeping +2S.

Soundwave
30-09-2013, 15:17
Options are going to be the biggest thing with dark elves now.There will be tons of differing armies out there now. The warlocks and sisters are two units that will change game dynamics greatly,not to mention the rest as well.

Knifeparty
30-09-2013, 15:27
Crone Helbrone on a Cauldron in a unit of 40 Executioners with a BSB and a Witchbrew so when the Frenzy Bound spell goes off the witchbrew gives them +1 attack again giving executioners 3 attacks.

Is this possible?

Obscenely expensive perhaps...

Rakariel
30-09-2013, 15:31
I don`t see a reason why this shouldn`t work. Will cost an arm and a leg tho. Or does the brew only work on Welfs?

Knifeparty
30-09-2013, 15:33
I'm still trying to get over the fact the my Cold one Knights won't be as effective this time around, It's like a bad break up, we've been dating since 6th edition...

But at least that leaves me open to using units that I would not have used before such as executioners. I'd really like to make a competitive Khaine list.

Rakariel
30-09-2013, 15:37
While CoKs seem to be worse off than other units, I still think they are very viable still. 3 S4 attacks while in combat per model is nothing to sneeze at (+ there is all the racial traits which makes DE just great in combat) and giving you eleven S6 attacks (ASF, reroll 1s) and ten S4 attacks on the charge. Thats quite alot tbh and can surely tear most units a new one. Sure they are more expensive now but still I think you can build good lists around them. Maybe use ten together with two chariots to flank them, should give them alot of destructive hitting power. On top of it they are the unit with the best AS in the book. I did ask earlier already but, do they have a 2+ or 1+ now?

Knifeparty
30-09-2013, 15:41
Not sure on the armour save, but I would think 2+. It's mostly the loss of the Hydra Banner that I feel so deeply. CoK aren't bad by any means, but they aren't the line breakers they once were. I think you may need more hero support in them now, possibly even a Dreadlord.

12 Knights+Hero+2 CoK Chariots will still lay some hurt down.

Soundwave
30-09-2013, 15:45
Cold one cav will be awsome you can chew your way through protracted combats now, i will be useing them for sure now as a massive hammer in a semi star unit or as a small flanker to cause grevious damage and support corsairs or spears/swords.

Rakariel
30-09-2013, 15:47
You`re right there, especially in comparison to some new stuff they are indeed less well off. But still what I like about this book is that even the "weaker" options (even I have to grin at the word "weak" in this context :rolleyes:) are damn good. I think the CoKs are in line. Maybe they need more character support and screening from other troops but thats okay. Loosing the hydra banner is a small blow to them but I think its overall not that big of a deal. I think that extra S4 attack on the Cold Ones is very good and don`t forget we can reroll 1s to wound now which should with a charge cause alot of mayhem ;)

I for sure will keep running CoKs in my lists, I just love them.

Knifeparty
30-09-2013, 15:48
They are definitely are better at protracted combats now, but given that I have to rely on the Cold One to do much of the damage now I just don't rely on 4+ to hit. But giving them a razor standard will help too. Either them or Black Guard.

Knifeparty
30-09-2013, 15:55
Supreme Sorceress with Tomb of Furion in a 40 man unit of Black Guard with the Razor Standard. Supported by Chariots, 3 Bolt throwers, and Crossbowmen with a lvl 2 with the Sacrificial Dagger, 10 Warlocks and Either a Big Block of Cold One Knights or 2 Hydra/Kharibdris.

I like the Combination of Dark Magic, instant access to Soulblight and Doombolt from the Warlocks and a level 2 with Beasts or something. Especially beasts with +1 to cast on Cold One Knights/Hydra/Kharibdris/Chariots!

Nixon28/02
30-09-2013, 16:24
Hey guys what does the Tome of Furion do? Think the dark magic lore is ace and warlocks being effectively level 2s having access to doombolt AND soulblight is awesome.

Knifeparty
30-09-2013, 16:26
From my understanding, Tomb of Furion allows you to pick your spells from the lore of Dark Magic only. Don't quote me on that.

Rakariel
30-09-2013, 16:31
With the book you can pick one of the spells, the rest is generated as usual. I think it works on every lore.
Edit: sry only on Dark Magic youre right.

Soulless
30-09-2013, 16:53
So the magic set up would be 4lvl with dagger and presumably lore of shadows (for debuffs) and 2lvl with tome and dark magic - I also think the warlocks will be our black horse so to speak - this unit is messed up on so many levels ...

Rakariel
30-09-2013, 17:24
I would actually rather tend to use Dark Magic on my lv4, those spells are just ace imo.

Norngahl
30-09-2013, 19:19
Can anyone tell what magic artefacts the druchii get?

Btw the black guard looks just *********** awesome! :) Personally I'd go for a peggy hero, because of +1 wound and +1 toughness for free. I don't care about 50points more of items, would go for the Lvl4 anyway, especially since the pendant is gone. DE only fear shooting attacks because they have t3 and 5+ as at most times, so for disrupting this a hero on peg is definately enough! Add some harpies and everything is fine.

Rakariel
30-09-2013, 19:22
From the rumor thread. There you go http://plastickrak.blogspot.co.nz/2013/09/dark-elf-rules-leaked.html?m=1

SkawtheFalconer
30-09-2013, 20:08
As they are getting ASF, are Shades with GWs going to make a comeback? They were everywhere in 6th.

Drasanil
30-09-2013, 20:24
Dark Magic is ace from the looks of it. Bladewind will munch hordes like no tomorrow, Soul Stealer has great synergy with PoD, Word of Pain boosted version is fairly cheap and -d3 strength is rocking. Initial thoughts are a level 4 with tome/soul stealer for damage output, backed up by either lvl 2s or a second lvl4 life mage with dagger. Hope for regrowth and you can literally kill your unit to heal it :D

Black Ark Admiral looks like a completely useless whiff of a character though, win challenge unbreakable for a turn? Pass, dreadlord is better in every regard.

High Beastmaster, I am not sold on, looks ok but not a fan of sticking characters on chariots or manticores, too easy to kill. Though a BS7 Super Bolt Thrower does sound interesting.

Dreadlord, lots of new toys, but with the new Sea Dragon Cloaks, thinking simple foot general in a block. Ogre Blade, Shield, Heavy Armour, SDC and Black Amulet, 2+ save, 4++ bouncing wounds in challenges, ASF re-rolls at Strength 6 and re-roll ones to wound.

Zlatan
30-09-2013, 20:46
I'm really liking the look of the dark magic lore too. Doombolt is a really solid signature spell as it helps deal with higher toughness enemies and scores a good number of hits. The boosted version is brutal.
I think the star of the lore is definitely word of pain though. Compare the boosted version with unboosted Enfeebling foe from shadow: for just an extra 2 to cast, you get the same effect with a longer range, plus minus d3 to WS, BS, and I.... It's the most versatile hex in the game. Even if you roll a 1, simultaneously knocking down WS, I and S is likely to make a big difference in combat against pretty much any kind of enemy. It also synergies really well with blade wind and black horror.
I can't wait for a situation when I can cast word of pain on a big scary shooting unit (maybe sisters of Avelorn), then blade wind them - loads of S4 hits and those that survive won't hit much in the next shooting phase. "Mwahaha" seems the apt thing to say.
Soul stealer is useful for getting back wounds but its a little underwhelming in terms of damage output. No AS is nice but scattering makes it less reliable against high AS units.
I see a potential FAQ on the horizon: do wounds caused by the lore attribute allow a roll to gain wounds for soul stealer? Anyone know of any precedent?

Norngahl
30-09-2013, 20:47
From the rumor thread. There you go http://plastickrak.blogspot.co.nz/2013/09/dark-elf-rules-leaked.html?m=1


From the rumor thread. There you go http://plastickrak.blogspot.co.nz/2013/09/dark-elf-rules-leaked.html?m=1

Cool thanks!

Actually I think the DE took a bad hit on the items.. the only useful things I think are the tome, the cloak and the dagger.. I couldn't decide wether to give the cloak to a noble on peggy or to a supreme.. the supreme with cloak and dagger in a unit of spears/hw&s becomes pretty tough to remove with 3++, but I can see that a peggy noble would benefit much more from it.. 3 wounds, 3++, a nice AS and GW with cc bonus would become a very decent WM and mage hunter.

Maybe 4++ and dagger on the supreme and a noble with cloak, HA, S, SDC (should be possible?) and GW/lance would be a very nice duo.

A altar should be worth it that much, I'd prefer adding up bodies for the points, more reliable thing and better vs shooting. DE don't have CC problems but suffer from low body count with bad AS when it comes down to shooting..

CoK are to expensive, even with +1 attack IMO.. I'm looking on spears/HW&S, BG and executioners.. an army on foot. All pretty nice, especialy the executioners, now that they have asf. Negates their biggest weakness.. the new chars seem to be.. nice ideas for list variation but rather shabby in terms of competition..

Oh, and would't swap black magic.. this lore is totally ace, especially with 2(!) signature spell and the nice little lore buff. Every spell is usefull, something against the hard (bolt), something against weak (bladewind), nice hexes and soul stealer with 10 lp sorc and every model takes a wound? yes please!! Shredding cheap units and soaking life, perfect spell!

Rakariel
30-09-2013, 20:50
I must say that so far only the admiral disappoints me. His special rule doesnīt really do all that much. If he would be a hero character he might be useful but as a lord I don`t know. If I would use one I would put him onto a scroungerunner in a chariot heavy list. BS7 S7 Boltthrower oh yes. :D

The beastlord on the other hand does seem fine to me however. His monster bolstering ability isn`t bad and he seems rather cheap as the manticore is included in the cost (which isn`t that high). I will definitly be using him in a monster mash list with dragons, multiple hydras, two kharibdyss, medusa(s) and maybe if my opponent allows it a pagowyrm from SoM. Should be fun, target saturation at its best.

Zlatan
30-09-2013, 20:50
Boohoo. Just reread the lore attribute and realised it says resolve the r tea hits after the spell effects are resolved, so no extra wounds generated for soul stealer...

Rakariel
30-09-2013, 20:55
Boohoo. Just reread the lore attribute and realised it says resolve the r tea hits after the spell effects are resolved, so no extra wounds generated for soul stealer...
That would be ridicolously broken. Its fine as it is imo.

Zlatan
30-09-2013, 21:15
That would be ridicolously broken. Its fine as it is imo.

Yeah I'm not complaining. It was just wishful thinking.

What's the concensus on the attribute? It seems a little underwhelming at first. Lets say you roll a double on a casting attempt about 50% of the time. And 2D6 S1 hits cause on average around 1.2 wounds vs T3 targets. That works out as just over half a wound per successful casting. Not great really.

I guess the saving grace is that it applies to almost all the spells as opposed to the limited applicability of some of the attributes. It's a nice bonus, but nothing game breaking.

Rakariel
30-09-2013, 21:20
I think the lore attribute is good. Is it the best there is? Surely not but I think its very fluffy and can get you some lucky additional kills. Its nowhere near the HE lore attribut which I think is pretty much the best there is but I think thats comepletly fine.

Trains_Get_Robbed
01-10-2013, 05:24
Well seeing that I'm sick of being being stuck under the boot of the scrub gamer denying a major victory because of a particular build/army; hello Naggaroth, may you quake at the sight of Nagarythe's avengers! :D

Since anyone with any sense of judgement, or iota of research and understanding of metagaming, understands the power level at which D.E sit at. I would like to bring up how the prevalence of the mirror match will effect lists.

Seeing that everyone and their mother will now be playing D.E, how will you prepare for the mirror match? Will tailoring some of your tool box towards D.E be helpful, or will keeping your units sharp for WoC and Ogres for example, be more effective strategy? Currently, I plan to fiddle with the RoH on something flying and just throw it at where ever their Lvl 4 bunker is -sensing this to fail, I might just eventually roll with a Hero on a Peg. Meanwhile, I'll be taking a double Lord level casting to split up target priority -I'll also eventually fiddle around with the Light Coven as well. GW Shades are now money again.

Wesser
01-10-2013, 05:48
I think Dark Elves are gonna be very powerful..maybe too powerful as well.

Maybe even powerful and popular enough to rock the meta even more....

Already the more average troops (aka. not elites and not expendables/tarpits) such as State troops, Orc boyz and Clanrats are in trouble.

Never the most cost-efficient troops to begin, but fluffwise the core of their armies, these fine fellows are in even greater trouble now with the influx of even more supercharged elves complete with lotsa monsters for the stomps.

Will DE rock the boat so that Empire armies will be even less State Troops and even more knights? Will TK go all-chariots? Will any WC player take marauders? Will anyone take non elite/ non tarpits infantry like the above mentioned anymore?

And how will the DE players deal with all knight armies in case of Silver Helms/Empire Knights in that context?

Trains_Get_Robbed
01-10-2013, 05:55
I think Dark Elves are gonna be very powerful..maybe too powerful as well.

Maybe even powerful and popular enough to rock the meta even more....

Already the more average troops (aka. not elites and not expendables/tarpits) such as State troops, Orc boyz and Clanrats are in trouble.

Never the most cost-efficient troops to begin, but fluffwise the core of their armies, these fine fellows are in even greater trouble now with the influx of even more supercharged elves complete with lotsa monsters for the stomps.

Will DE rock the boat so that Empire armies will be even less State Troops and even more knights? Will TK go all-chariots? Will any WC player take marauders? Will anyone take non elite/ non tarpits infantry like the above mentioned anymore?

And how will the DE players deal with all knight armies in case of Silver Helms/Empire Knights in that context?

I think we'll deal with them with Magic, the A.P banner (you can have a BsB sit in the second rank of Witch units that are 7 wide with a Cauldron if you take one more character in the unit as well, not that is super optimal), Executioners/B.G with the A.P banner and kitted characters, as well as statistics (enough wounds you'll eventually roll a 1). The Empire matchup can be hard, but the H.E one will be rather a auto win depending on how soon you can mop up the Phoenixes, our only real answer (as a H.E player) to the entirety of the D.E army. Don't be surprised if you see triple Phoenix lists start popping up.

The worst matchup right now I can see for D.E is Dwarf castle gunline, and Skaven -still due to the amount templates and access to HPAs and anti monster battery.

Nixon28/02
01-10-2013, 06:05
Looks like Executioners will be viable now due to AsF and them striking at initiative order, hope so as the models really are nice. Black Guard are too

Soundwave
01-10-2013, 07:13
Couple of quick things. Lets not get to excited on peg heros the pegasus isnt confirmed yet is it?

And for everyone fretting about power or cheesy players wanting power the dust in this book will need to settle first.

Wesser
01-10-2013, 07:34
Couple of quick things. Lets not get to excited on peg heros the pegasus isnt confirmed yet is it?

And for everyone fretting about power or cheesy players wanting power the dust in this book will need to settle first.

Those oh so usual comments about "lets wait and see" are quite meaningsless aren't they? I mean of course we are going to make somewhat premature comments based on some limited knowledge, but it's not like we can't change our opinions when more information arrives is it?

And it's not like it'll stop anyways as every new release can change the playing field and every player have different experiences due to different metas. So if we wait for "the dust to settle" why even discuss anything?

And about this "context of the book" thing. I only need to glance at DE core troops cost and abilities to know my state troops are getting more of a liability with just about every release. Skaven players who haven't given up on making their core anything but tarpits are probably swapping any horde movement trays for something deeper too...

Soulless
01-10-2013, 07:45
Well i think we could discuss the core units for now - for a moment.

So WE - the new Ward-ness of 8th ed - so strong ? so overrated ? Lets try to think backwards (the irony...) for a moment and think how we would deal with them

Corsairs - with the ASF, MP and new improved SdC (with LA its now full plate save) - doable ? RhB worth it with the increased range ? (loads of shoots from them)

Warriors - RxB - good as always - best mini in the box crossbow looks amazing - now why would we ever use swordsman ?

Rakariel
01-10-2013, 08:53
Seeing that everyone and their mother will now be playing D.E, how will you prepare for the mirror match? Will tailoring some of your tool box towards D.E be helpful, or will keeping your units sharp for WoC and Ogres for example, be more effective strategy? Currently, I plan to fiddle with the RoH on something flying and just throw it at where ever their Lvl 4 bunker is -sensing this to fail, I might just eventually roll with a Hero on a Peg. Meanwhile, I'll be taking a double Lord level casting to split up target priority -I'll also eventually fiddle around with the Light Coven as well. GW Shades are now money again.

I honestly don`t know which list I will take to tourneys, as I really need the book in my hands for that. DE have a crapload of tools now which all seem viable so I guess I will sit and spend my future gaming time (the little that I can afford) and try each and every combination I can think of. One of my regular opponents is an avid HE, Liz and DoC player so I should get enough opportunities for lots of different setups. At heart am a theme player however so there will be some fluffy combinations in any case ;)

As for the Peg, while not confirmed I am nearly 99% sure we will have one. Its our thing, our mount, don`t know how else I can explain it. Call it a hunch. What mounts do we have? Manticore, Dragon, Horse and well Peg. Its not all that much anyway. Its iconic. I don`t see why we shouldn`t have it anymore.

WE are, while very good indeed especially with a cauldron, only S3 T3 models with no save. They will be seen alot, but only Welfs? I doubt it. Corsairs have their merit as do warrior bunker. The question for me is not how valid other options are in comparison to Welfs but how good are corsairs in comparison to warriors. I would take corsairs over warriors all the time tbh. They have a better AS, can have shooting or more attacks. What do warriors offer beside one more rank (spears) or a parry (sword & board)? Whats your take on this?

Norngahl
01-10-2013, 10:47
I

They have a better AS, can have shooting or more attacks. What do warriors offer beside one more rank (spears) or a parry (sword & board)? Whats your take on this?

Pretty simple- Sacrificial Dagger Madness. Sure it isn't as reliable as before, but still reliable enough to allow one or two dice casting with a Lvl4. And whatever the damage output is corsairs can offer over the warrior, it gets easily beaten by the magic output when some extra spells get through. On top of this they are cheaper, allowing rank bonus, more bodies, points denial.

Depends pretty much on your play style. If you are going for aggressive Druchii without Lvl4 you are truely better off with the corsairs, when you take the level 4 you should have these cheap warriors i think.

Soundwave
01-10-2013, 11:32
A bus of bleak swords on a flank to do some counter or risky charges will be ideal,a unit of 25 will stay steadfast even from a charge of knights or a monster,supported they will work very well at denying units to the main fight.

Rakariel
01-10-2013, 12:29
Good ideas. I forgot to say however that I have to leave the dagger out of the equation as I think it won`t be allowed in our tournament scene around here (only 1 PD is allowed per magic phase atm for DE so...). I find the idea interesting to use 25 swords as a throw away unit to bog stuff down as cheap as we can (we are very expensive class cannons after all) and countercharge with some sisters to negate ranks, chariots or monsters. Hmmm ideas ideas :)

Edit: I`m quite interested how they will handle power of darkness were you cannot control the amount of PD you will get. ;)

Thori
01-10-2013, 12:54
Just a tought:

As our SS (or sorceress) can now join Exec, do you think this is a good idea if we play the Tome (and 4++) without the dagger to join them as a bunker:
I mean they have KB so other Chars will not come or be afraid
They have S6 so Cav/Monsters will be afraid and now we have a good use of PoD +1S
No dagger so no sacrifice

We can even imagine a BsB with RoH with them.

What do you think ?

Soundwave
01-10-2013, 13:18
Just a tought:

As our SS (or sorceress) can now join Exec, do you think this is a good idea if we play the Tome (and 4++) without the dagger to join them as a bunker:
I mean they have KB so other Chars will not come or be afraid
They have S6 so Cav/Monsters will be afraid and now we have a good use of PoD +1S
No dagger so no sacrifice

We can even imagine a BsB with RoH with them.

What do you think ?
Not a bad idea.I would prefer to keep my sorceres out of combat for as long as possible and give the Pod +1 str to a unit that needs it more...where do you start?I mean even sword or spearmen will be lethal with that de buff we now have then PoD,the synergy in the dark magic lore seems quite insane.

Symrivven
01-10-2013, 13:20
Just a tought:

As our SS (or sorceress) can now join Exec, do you think this is a good idea if we play the Tome (and 4++) without the dagger to join them as a bunker:
I mean they have KB so other Chars will not come or be afraid
They have S6 so Cav/Monsters will be afraid and now we have a good use of PoD +1S
No dagger so no sacrifice

We can even imagine a BsB with RoH with them.

What do you think ?

Well then you'd have a close combat unit with a model in it that you really don't want to see in combat.

Why take the tome? Its a bit expensive for what it does. Of course its better than sacrificing executioners (Though I'd appreciate the poetic justice). but there are also arcane items in the brb that can be worth it.

Soundwave
01-10-2013, 13:37
Good ideas. I forgot to say however that I have to leave the dagger out of the equation as I think it won`t be allowed in our tournament scene around here (only 1 PD is allowed per magic phase atm for DE so...). I find the idea interesting to use 25 swords as a throw away unit to bog stuff down as cheap as we can (we are very expensive class cannons after all) and countercharge with some sisters to negate ranks, chariots or monsters. Hmmm ideas ideas :)

Edit: I`m quite interested how they will handle power of darkness were you cannot control the amount of PD you will get. ;)

Yeah dont get me wrong,you will want a bus of 25 to do something.For support i am loving the sounds of the warlocks,those guys can hang back doombolting stuff then charge from out of nowhere,fairly decent in a fight then soulblight your enemy when in combat.Throw away at these points now is not something we can afford like we used too.
Ideas,ideas i hear you my head is spinning also at all the possabilitys now:) wish they could all cram into a 3k list:/

Rakariel
01-10-2013, 13:48
I actually like the idea having a cheap sorc lv1 in a horde of Executioners. Go for the Signature spell and they are strength 7 without alot of hustle. That will mow down pretty much everything in your path. If you put a cauldron behind them they are even rerolling to wound. And if she dies who cares, shes not very expensive now ;)

Ach don`t get me started on ideas, theres so many forming in my head already. Want book now :D

Knifeparty
01-10-2013, 13:52
I feel like the Magic Items list is severely lacking. Lets analyze.

The Hydra Blade:
+d6 attacks, roll a -2 ld check every turn or loose -5WS and gain Heroic Killing blow for grand total of your Lords entire Magic Item allowance.
At first I though this item was awesome, but because the Heroic Killing Blow aspect of the Item is random it has become almost useless, especially considering it's cost. I might have picked this weapon up if it cost 40 points and I could put it on a hero.

Chillblade:
Attacks wound automatically, then toughness test on unsaved wounds or -3 to your attacks until the end of combat.
Grand Total: Your entire Hero Allowance.
Again Chillblade is in the book, and now for 3 editions in a row it has been one of the worst choices in the game. Pass
Edit: Sorry, this magic weapon might be ok on a sorceress who doesn't want to die, or possibly an assassin if his poisons can work on top of it which remains to be seen.

Black Dragon Egg:
Once per game gain Strength and Toughness 6 and a St 2 no armour save breath weapon.
Grand Total: Your entire Hero allowance.
This could be good in the right situation. I'm thinking possibly on a Sorceress who accepts a challenge from a Combat Lord and has debuffed the enemy's toughness. Expensive though.

Cloak of Twilight:
3+ ward vs. Magic and Shooting. First round of any combat gain Killing blow and D3 wounds.
Grand total: Entire Hero allowance.
This at least can be fit onto a Hero. This may be good to put on a Noble on a Cold One with a Lance, can make him more effective against Characters and Monsters.

Black Amulet:
4+ Ward Save and it reflects saved wounds back onto the attacker with no armour save, but only in a challenge.
Grand Total: Just over the Hero limit
Again, not amazing. This can be good against Chaos as they are forced to challenge. It has it's place I think, but would be far better if they had omitted the challenge part.

Ring of Hotek:
Magic Resistance 3, enemy wizards targeting a unit within 6" of the ring suffer a Miscast on a double 1 or double 6.
Grand Total: Hero Limit
At least you can take it on a hero and at least it doesn't blow your own sorceress's heads off now. it's not amazing.

Gem of Spite:
Everytime you Miscast all enemy wizards within 12" take a strength 6 hit or may sacrifice a Dispel Die to ignore the wound.
Grand total: Not expensive, not necessarily cheap
I don't know what to think about this item. It can be useful, but it doesn't mitigate the damage done to your own sorceress so, I don't really care.

Banner of Naggarythe:
Great...unbreakable for a unit, and it affects some high elf units too? Wonderful.
Grand Total: About 75 points too expensive.
8th edition is all about sticking around. No one bought this item in previous editions when sticking around for an infantry unit was unheard of, and the banner was better then. I see no reason why this banner will be used now. I can't believe they dropped my beloved Hydra Banner in place of this one. Terrible.

Sacrificial Dagger:
It's pretty much the same but only works on a 4+
Grand Total: It's pretty much the same as I said...
Still a great Item, cheap and cheerful but it will be more costly in the long run than it's predecessor.

Tomb of Furion:
Choose one spell on the lore of Dark Magic, roll as normal for the Rest. Or as I like to call it the Tomb of Word of Pain, because I will automatically be choosing the best Hex spell in the game that synergies with almost every other spell in the Dark Lore so it doesn't matter what I roll for spells after that.
Grand Total: As much as the Sacrificial Dagger
This item is amazing and is on par with the Sacrificial Dagger for must have's.

Soundwave
01-10-2013, 14:01
Yeah i am unimpressed with the magic items,not worried though new it was coming.Cloak of twighlight is my pick for sure.
Hydra blade is a poor poor badly designed item,this one really baffles me...

Knifeparty
01-10-2013, 14:10
It's interesting that initially, many of the "synergies" in the book that were rumoured had me thinking that this book would be a dud for the most part. I actually still think that the Cauldron/Blookwrack shrine won't be worth it for the most part and that most of the magic items suck. But then you look at the Lore of Dark Magic, and you think "Oh...thats *********** brutal". Seriously the Dark Lore is insane, I think you'd be crazy not to take it.

Soundwave
01-10-2013, 14:19
Yeah the lore does look great.I want a 10 wound sorceress!Or Malekith or Morathi. The attribute is iffy but not as bad as some.eg warpflame.

Rakariel
01-10-2013, 14:21
I agree with you on the two weapons pretty much, too expensive while not being really all that great. The Dragon Egg however can be a very nasty item. Put it on a lord on a peg fly over beside a unit of high armor targets and use it, alternatively it can also be used to get S6(new which means you should be S8 with a GW) and T6 which makes the character VERY strong. The cloak is one of the best items in the list and overall very useful, can be used on a hero which makes him pretty much unkillable by ranged stuff.

The Black Amulet I find not bad at all tbh. Its a flat out 4+ ward with side effects if you run into a challenge. I think its good because it gives your army another 4+ ward through an item. Normally you can only take one talisman of pres but with this you can outfit another important character (maybe a sorc, 4+ ward to be used against misscasts and if she really runs into combat she can even kill her opponent through the item).

The Ring of Hotek sadly got worse. Its double the points but half the range for the effect. Not a big fan anymore. Magic Res does nothing, but maybe the authors know something about 9th edition which makes Magic Res viable again.

Gem of spite is good, not too expensive and can mean trouble for other spellcasters. DE are an offensive army and therefore should get into combat. If you look at my earlier post about the Executioner horde with a lv1 and signature spell you can give the Gem to her and try to force out dispel dice or even kill enemy wizards. Your sorc will be near the enemy line in this case.

Banner of N. sucks sorry to say. Too expensive for what it does. How much was the BotWD again? ;)

The dagger is great, not as good as before but had to be brought in line. The Tome is great aswell. Rather cheap and gives alot of versatility in the magical departement.

All in all I find our items good, not perfect. But if you count out the banner and the two weapons I think the rest is very usable.

Symrivven
01-10-2013, 14:31
I can't see the gem of spite working:
First you need your sorceress to get close to the enemy wizards, something that not normally happens so often you actively have to move them in range.
Then you need a miscast, something which you can't control and can ruin your day as well.
And then the enemy should be out of dispel dice. Considering the magic phase is often pretty close to its end after losing d6 casting dice, most opponents will gladly throw a any leftover dispel dice against this item.

So unless I missed something this item does not seem to be worth it.

Knifeparty
01-10-2013, 14:40
At first I though there was a Synergy between the Ring of Hotek and the Gem of Spite, but alas this is not so.

I also missed the Strength bonus on the Black Dragon Egg, It is rather useful after all. I wonder if Assassins can take it?

Rakariel
01-10-2013, 14:49
At first I though there was a Synergy between the Ring of Hotek and the Gem of Spite, but alas this is not so.

I also missed the Strength bonus on the Black Dragon Egg, It is rather useful after all. I wonder if Assassins can take it?

They can. ;)

Setomidor
01-10-2013, 14:49
Just a tought:

As our SS (or sorceress) can now join Exec, do you think this is a good idea if we play the Tome (and 4++) without the dagger to join them as a bunker
.. [snip] ...

What do you think ?

I think this will be fairly common, mostly because I expect people to spend most of their core points on Dark Riders, a medium sized XBow unit and maybe some small WE unit. This means the only proper fighting block to hide the Sorc in will be the Execs. I would probably kit her out with the Ring of Hotek and a Dispel scroll, MR(3) will do a very good job protecting the otherwise magically exposed Executioners, and even deters hexes to be cast at them for the risk of having an extra miscast.

I ran the numbers for Ring of Hotek over at druchii.net (link (http://druchii.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=72798&p=876124#p876124)), and as expected the RoH almost doubles the risk of enemy wizards miscasting for a mere 5 pts increase over the Lodestone.

Knifeparty
01-10-2013, 14:50
That sounds promising indeed.

Rakariel
01-10-2013, 14:55
Btw what do we know of the Bloodwreck Shrine? Does it only have the LD shenanigans and do you have to use it as a mount for a medusa? I think stats haven`t been posted for it and I don`t know if it can march like the cauldron, but lets say it can and would be S5 T5 with a 4+ AS it might not be that bad as combat support (medusa having KB attacks and so on).

The Ring of Hotek isn`t bad per se, I`m just a bit miffed that they halfed the range while being pretty expensive. If you have a up and close combat character and the points its definitly gonna mess up some enemy spellcasters. I am not sure why it had to be so expensive however. I know I shouldn`t use the BotWD as example all the time, but both items being the same price kinda baffles me.

Setomidor
01-10-2013, 15:37
The Ring of Hotek isn`t bad per se, I`m just a bit miffed that they halfed the range while being pretty expensive. If you have a up and close combat character and the points its definitly gonna mess up some enemy spellcasters. I am not sure why it had to be so expensive however. I know I shouldn`t use the BotWD as example all the time, but both items being the same price kinda baffles me.

I have a feeling you've misunderstood the item; it affects all enemy spellcasters that either are within 6", OR that are targetting a spell any unit within 6" of the ring. That means the enemy will risk miscasting twice as often when casting spells at any unit (friend or foe!) which has any model within 6" of the ring. With some clever positioning, you can probably have this 6" bubble covering at least half your army (and parts of the enemy army when they get close).

TowerGuard
01-10-2013, 15:58
Is anyone else concerned about the DE vulnerability to shooting?

The old Cauldron used to virtually cover any particular target whenever needed. As I play HE, this used to irritate me to no end (CoK - 2+Sv 5+Wsv, BlackGaurd - 5+Sv 5+WSv) The new cauldron has a worse WSv (Besides WEs that have no armour to begin with) and only gives it to a unit is joins, which pretty much eliminates CoK from being a good unit to use it on.

I see a lot of other armies (HE players too) complaining about the new DE power level. But whenever I look at all the new rules for them, all I seem to think about is how easily I'm going to be shooting everything up. We have longer range and virtually every one of our elites has some special ability to absorb BS-based shooting. Even my friends O&G will be relatively successful shooting these guys up.

I mean ASF and Murderous Prowess is cool and all but it won't mean anything if nobody's left standing to use it.
How are DE players feeling about the lack of shooting protection now?

Drasanil
01-10-2013, 16:06
For items I agree with most of the assessments, except for the Black Amulet. This one has the potential to get real nasty real quick in combination with the Tome of Furion, pre-select Soul Stealer and suddenly you can have a 10 wound sorc challenging and bouncing wound back at enemy characters! This is also makes he rather safe in a combat unit so she can put the PoD strength boost where it will do the most good.

Sorc: "Hello Blender Vamp!"

Vamp: "Sigh... not again."

Sorc: "Why do you keep killing yourself blender vamp?"

naloth
01-10-2013, 16:11
I mean ASF and Murderous Prowess is cool and all but it won't mean anything if nobody's left standing to use it.
How are DE players feeling about the lack of shooting protection now?

I'm not quite sure where this is coming from... Before one unit could get a 5++ if you weren't using the cauldron for something else. Now you can use it for one unit (admittedly, it's going to have to stay with that one unit, but it's still *one unit*) and it gives you other buffs at the same time though it apparently costs a bit more. It's not like a cauldron could cover your CoK, naked WE, Exec horde, and other units at the same time before. Was there some jedi mind trick you used to keep your opponents only shooting at the *one* unit you used your cauldron on and some magic that made a 5++ so much better than it is now?

What I take from the rumors is that troops got a buff - almost across the board. The Cauldron is more expensive with a shorter range, but it's also a lot more potent as well. The new magic lore looks pretty amazing. The only real "nerfs" are that the super cheesy selection of magic items are gone - replaced by a moderate list (much like all the other new armies) and that the hydra was drastically rebalanced.

BattleofLund
01-10-2013, 16:34
The MP rule we got is a huge boon. Someone did the math and it turns out that extra rank of HE is better BUT it only works if you have ranked units. Ours works all the time. Dark riders ? CoK ? Charioteers ? Basicly if you ever did a charge where you wound on 2+ and said to yourself - i have you now and failed - you know how mind easing this rule is and how more deep it allows us to plan.

I'm quite excited by what I've read, it seems Dark Elves will go from being almost overly competent, to being definitely so. Happy sneer!

However, how far will Murderous Prowess go? Monsters and Magic - probably not. Ranged attacks - hope so? It's possible. Impact hits - seriously doubt it ('Crew only' is what I'm thinking).

Knifeparty
01-10-2013, 16:44
Being incredibly vulnerable to shooting has always been a weakness for DE, the only thing is that last edition you could spam Hydras and CoK with a 5+ ward save for target saturation which means you'd have to target one of them to little effect. I should know, I ran that list for 5 years.

Clearly Dark Elves are one of the strongest, if not THE strongest army in close combat. Their Magic is clearly quite powerful too, as is their shooting. I'd say having one weakness to ranged fire is fair.

Murderous Prowess only works on close combat attacks. Lol could you imagine if it worked on shooting? So this is my army of 150 crossbowmen and 4 bolt throwers...

Soulless
01-10-2013, 17:02
What i like about this book is the many choices that it brings us - I love to field army that gives my opponent the wtf !? syndrome - 1 he is amused 2 he is happy and sure of his win 3 he is surprised 4 he is furious that he lost :D

Norngahl
01-10-2013, 17:22
As well, wait for the point costs.. as amazing as DE seem to be with their choices, you can't have all the shiny toys at one time.

Assuming some equippment included:

Supreme Sorc lets say 300 points
Peggy Hero around 225 points
Cauldron around 300 points
30 Black Guard around 500 points
30 Executioners around 400 points
Hydra around 225 points

And you still got to fill 500 points full of core.. See what I mean.. you are reaching your pointlimit really fast.. for a relativly small model count very vulnerable to shooting. I'm a big fan of the black guard, I have always been, since the time they costet 16 points and had 1 attack and did next to nothing.. with the new models and new rules they will be great as well, through executioners got the biggest boon in the book thx to asf. Whatever they fight, it dies.. But the enemy will know this as well ;)

I wouldn't whine about dark elves, even if they got pretty strong in combat. Their magic is pretty evil, through. Hard to get rid of it and overwhelming in the magic phase.. You should always have a well rounded list able to deal with everything at least a bit, if you go for combat with Woodelves and get screwed up, well, don't wonder, you gotta play a race on their strenghtes, if it doesn't fit your playstyle, swap the armybook :D

Me as an old Chaosdwarf/DE player.. well.. lest say the DE would have a pretty hard time reaching me, Magma cannon, double deathshrieker, blunderbusses.. go home little DE. :shifty: Same goes for dwarfes or gunny imperium.. Especially now that the hydra is redone with regeneration, 4+ reg and regaining wounds at the end of the turn makes a huge difference IMO.

TowerGuard
01-10-2013, 18:09
I'm not quite sure where this is coming from... Before one unit could get a 5++ if you weren't using the cauldron for something else. Now you can use it for one unit (admittedly, it's going to have to stay with that one unit, but it's still *one unit*) and it gives you other buffs at the same time though it apparently costs a bit more. It's not like a cauldron could cover your CoK, naked WE, Exec horde, and other units at the same time before. Was there some jedi mind trick you used to keep your opponents only shooting at the *one* unit you used your cauldron on and some magic that made a 5++ so much better than it is now?.


Well, generally the DE armies that I'd face on a regular basis had a Unkillable PegLord, Cauldron, COKs and/or ASF BlackGuard DarkRider core. So maybe I'm just bitter:D

Seriously though, the new Cauldron only gives out a 6+Wsv to these units now. It would hamper the CoK movement if it joined them so it's now a great choice to join them. And since the Cauldron is joining a unit now and takes up space in that unit, it means the cauldron also mitigates the unit's attacks in close combat assuming it's pushed into the front rank.

I think with all these things considered, esp. that it only gives non-WitchElf units a 6+WSv, a considerable difference.

naloth
01-10-2013, 18:26
Well, generally the DE armies that I'd face on a regular basis had a Unkillable PegLord, Cauldron, COKs and/or ASF BlackGuard DarkRider core. So maybe I'm just bitter:D
So, it's not really a comparison to other armies but to what DE could field before... and here I thought you were comparing them to similarly if not higher costed, similarly vulnerable models...

TowerGuard
01-10-2013, 18:36
So, it's not really a comparison to other armies but to what DE could field before... and here I thought you were comparing them to similarly if not higher costed, similarly vulnerable models...

Absolutely. I thought I was pretty clear that I was comparing the old Dark Elves to the new. They've certainly gotten more vulnerable to shooting than before if anything. Some of the troop costs have gone up, which generally means less boots on the ground and hence why I figured some would be concerned at a lack of protection to shooting esp. compared to HE. Just a thought really.

[SD]Daenyathos
01-10-2013, 18:44
Murderous Prowess only works on close combat attacks. Lol could you imagine if it worked on shooting? So this is my army of 150 crossbowmen and 4 bolt throwers...

Are you trying to give my High Elves nightmares? :)

meowser
01-10-2013, 19:32
Gem of Spite: I'm surprised no one has pointed out how this seems to be a great Hellheart counter.

Ring of Hotek: I could see it being useful in a Cauldron deathstar unit. 5++ vs shooting, and 2++ versus spells. Not too shabby. Might have to do something awkward like put it on assassin to get it in the unit and stay alive, though, since Hags can only carry magic weapons and khainate poisons/gifts.

What do people think the textbook netlist will look like in a few months once the meta has stabilized with DE's introduction?

for 2.5k I'm thinking something along these lines:

Supreme Sorceress (Level 4 Wizard, Lore of Death, Sacrificial Dagger)

Death Hag (Battle Standard Bearer, Cauldron of Blood, Rune of Khaine)
Sorceress (Level 2 Wizard, Lore of Dark Magic, Dispel Scroll)
Sorceress (Level 1 Wizard, Lore of Beasts, Gem of Spite)

35 Witch Elves (FC, Standard of Discipline)
2x5 Dark Riders (Shields, RXB)

2x5 Shades (AHW)
5 Harpies
30 Executioners (FC)
1 War Hydra (Fiery Breath)

1 Kharibdyss
1 Bloockwrack Medusa

naloth
01-10-2013, 21:01
Absolutely. I thought I was pretty clear that I was comparing the old Dark Elves to the new. They've certainly gotten more vulnerable to shooting than before if anything. Some of the troop costs have gone up, which generally means less boots on the ground and hence why I figured some would be concerned at a lack of protection to shooting esp. compared to HE. Just a thought really.

There seemed to be a bit of both. Comparison to HE (though that might be the other thread claiming decent ward saves on every HE), comparison to other armies, and comparison to the old DE.

Really I still don't see they lost out. The Cauldron is better but more expensive and focused on a single unit. Yes, you can't buff knights easily but it greatly helps infantry in many ways. Corsairs seem to have gotten a general buff (4+ save, like T3 ASF chaos warriors) to durability as well as fighting prowess. Many units will kill far more effectively than before both on their own and due to buffs (ASF, re-roll some to wounds) meaning that you shouldn't be taking as many saves either.

Furthermore fantasy isn't like 40k. Many armies don't have much of a shooting component and for those that do, DE can generally match them. RxB infantry and the new cheaper, special RBT outshine most armies. I suppose you could complain they don't have a cannon or catapult but I don't really think they need it.

Worried about getting pasted by magical attacks? Seems like DE had items to help create miscasts, offer additional MR, and perhaps more.

Rakariel
01-10-2013, 21:07
I have a feeling you've misunderstood the item; it affects all enemy spellcasters that either are within 6", OR that are targetting a spell any unit within 6" of the ring. That means the enemy will risk miscasting twice as often when casting spells at any unit (friend or foe!) which has any model within 6" of the ring. With some clever positioning, you can probably have this 6" bubble covering at least half your army (and parts of the enemy army when they get close).
Cheers I misread that! Youre right. Well in this case the ring definitly has its uses and is priced right (maybe a bit too high but thats the opportunist in me speaking ;)).


Really I still don't see they lost out.
DE didnīt lose out, no, they got redefined into an even more combat oriented, magic heavy but very fragile army.

As you said the Cauldron is more potent now but more suited to a specific theme (Welfs) aswell. So no, it cannot be used as flexible as before buffing units on the fly but when it does buff a unit, it does so properly. The cauldron (atleast for me) should have always been welf or executioner themed, imo it should have never synergized with every other troop choice the way it did. Now the cauldron is great but not as flexible. Maybe DE lost this one flexibility but there are other things that can overcome the now missing strong points of the last book. Dark Riders who have a good AS for Fast Cav(!), chariots which always were great got another great version on top of it, hydra rebalanced and still damn viable, another monster which seems to work great for its points, very strong magic, good racial rules etc. the list goes on.

DE are fragile, thats their downside. Maybe you don`t see it that way but at the end of the day DE are T3 troops which don`t sport high AS. Corsairs seem to be the exception now and maybe that is their new purpose. Rather cheapish (for Elves that is) troops with a good AS. But they are pretty much the only ones, every other infantry troop choice has a 5+ AS at best which is, even in WHFB that doesn`t sport alot of shooting, not very good. Especially against other Elves but also against template warmachines or flame template monsters they will die in droves.

Edit: I forgot about Cold One Knights. Them having the best AS in the DE army makes their option viable in comparison to other units in the book (atleast for me).

naloth
01-10-2013, 22:26
DE are fragile, thats their downside. Maybe you don`t see it that way but at the end of the day DE are T3 troops which don`t sport high AS.

While I can see it as a downside, it's a fairly minor one that a lot of other armies share since T3 with a 5+ or worse is fairly common.

Rakariel
01-10-2013, 22:38
While I don`t deny that its not that big of a downside for DEs most other armies who sport T3 with a 5+AS have cheaper troops. This is complaining on a high level however, I think DEs will ultimately fall into the same tier as HEs, not winning tournaments all over but being able to sport some nasty combinations.

librerian_samae
02-10-2013, 08:03
I'm seeing a lot of potential flanking maneuvers, and also with the new monsters and scourge runner some good answers to the opponents bigger monster-y threats.

Harpies and black riders and the new warlocks look great for disrupting and whittling down the enemys infantry blocks before they reach combat.

Repeater crossbow men and repeater bolt throwers are going to be as good as ever, now with added range repeater pistols on corsairs will make a nice road block flank/rear protector.

Cold one knights got better at being shock cavalry ditto the cold one chariot.

basic corsairs for a screening unit still capable of combat and then your choice of of a solid block of your killy infantry of choice.

sprinkle in some magic support and combat hero punch and you should have a nice balanced list that will grind down the opponents by the death of a thousand cuts before sending in your elite infantry to mop up.

Rakariel
02-10-2013, 08:06
You mentioned the Cold One Chariot, was there any talk about its point cost? I don`t need actual costs I would be interested however if it has gone up (won`t have gone down as it was pretty cheap already).

Edit: I was just thinking of how the banner of N. could be made useful (or atleast a bit). Wouldn`t it be feasible to put it on a death hag bsb with a cauldron and the cauldron in an executioner horde? That would mean the Executioners would get a 6+ ward, reroll to wound, 1+ attack if you can get the bound spell trough (btw was it said what powerlevel the bound spell is?) and they will be unbreakable. One hell of an expensive unit but also pretty strong. Put a lv1 sorc with the signature spell and the ring of hotek into the unit and they will dish out repercussions when targeted with spells on top of it while being able to get another +1S through the signature spell. The sorc would have a 3+ ward against spells aswell.

Setomidor
02-10-2013, 09:28
Edit: I was just thinking of how the banner of N. could be made useful (or atleast a bit). Wouldn`t it be feasible to put it on a death hag bsb with a cauldron and the cauldron in an executioner horde?

All I hear is the sound of cannon balls closing in... ;)

Rakariel
02-10-2013, 09:40
Thats why I said "atleast a bit". ;)
Cannons are a problem for many expensive units/models. The Hag has a 5+ ward which is not all that bad.

Soundwave
02-10-2013, 12:07
Yet you are right Rakariel cold one knights and lets not forget corsairs will still have a place in this army i will go as far as saying vital! Cold ones are even better now,far better than most give them credit for.I recall in the white dwarf the reasoning for cold ones losing the extra attack wich was they would have to cost as much as a chaos knight in fact! Pfff that was rubbish,yet back in the day with two attacks they could munch most things on the go! If you want extra attacks worry not the hydra banner is gone,why not take the gambit on a level four light wizard with dagger? Possabilitys are endless now.
Corsairs are one of the few troops that can consistley sneak under the radar of a shooting line presented in a big enough block can do well both options are and always have been dangerous!

Thori
02-10-2013, 12:18
I am less and less convince by Cauldron for its costs:
300+pts Character ? Only really usefull with WE ? 600+pts unit to be effective ? Sad. We lost +1A and 5++ witch is horrible.

Did anybody try to make an army list ?
We've got very few minis now, it's strange. I'm really waiting my AB to read carefully Hydra regen rule because without Handlers (lost 6attacks) and regen + variable attacks according to Wounds ? Its a Meeeh right now. The same for the Kraken without handlers...

So now if we talk about the dagger. Did anybody think about Life Lore and regain minis ?
Low sacrificial warrior time is now over and 9 points a mini just for a sac bag cost too much.So what do we use as a sacrifice ? WE are not possible because of the 1d6 S3 rule, Xbowmen is not a good idea. Corsairs are now bad without SSS banner or old cauldron. So what ? Elites ?
BG are now 15pts. They are a good bunker with ItP/stubborn but again they cost a lot.
Exe are cheapper so more minis on the unit. We can use the Sig spell regen to protect them for 5++ and can sacrifice some of them if we have the 5th spell ? I don't really see any other bunker for dagger SS.
Any thought about dagger ?

Rakariel
02-10-2013, 12:28
Yeah thats what I like so much about this new book. It seems that every option can have a place in your army list without decreasing the overall effectiveness. And yes, you are absolutely right about the sorceress. I keep on forgetting that we can use every BRB lore now which opens up a huge amount of possibilities to buff your own troops. Nevermind the hydra banner, want to give your Cold One Knights more punch? Put a lv1 on a steed to follow them with Beasts to cast Wyssans on them. You can even put the sorc inside the unit on a Cold One and the amulet for protection. Or use a Life Sorceress who keeps on regening your monsters. Possibilities galore :D

Thori
02-10-2013, 12:35
I am less and less convince by Cauldron for its costs:
300+pts Character ? Only really usefull with WE ? 600+pts unit to be effective ? Sad. We lost +1A and 5++ witch is horrible.

Did anybody try to make an army list ?
We've got very few minis now, it's strange. I'm really waiting my AB to read carefully Hydra regen rule because without Handlers (lost 6attacks) and regen + variable attacks according to Wounds ? Its a Meeeh right now. The same for the Kraken without handlers...

So now if we talk about the dagger. Did anybody think about Life Lore and regain minis ?
Low sacrificial warrior time is now over and 9 points a mini just for a sac bag cost too much.So what do we use as a sacrifice ? WE are not possible because of the 1d6 S3 rule, Xbowmen is not a good idea. Corsairs are now bad without SSS banner or old cauldron. So what ? Elites ?
BG are now 15pts. They are a good bunker with ItP/stubborn but again they cost a lot.
Exe are cheapper so more minis on the unit. We can use the Sig spell regen to protect them for 5++ and can sacrifice some of them if we have the 5th spell ? I don't really see any other bunker for dagger SS.
Any thought about dagger ?

Rakariel
02-10-2013, 12:48
As was usus before a warrior bunker. Warriors were far too cheap in the old book, now they are in line. The dagger is a good item and powerdice generation at this scale should not come without repercussions. If you take the sig spell + dagger you can generate atleast two powerdice every magic phase (three is the average number - without channeling). Thats quite alot in my book.

The cauldron is everything but useless. Its a very powerfull tool which synergizes alot with Welfs. The cost is the drawback but would it be any cheaper I guess the whole unit would be broken and op. Besides the cauldron is not only usefull together with Welfs as it lets every unit inside 6 reroll to wound.

The hydra is another example of a complete overpowered unit (last edition). It had to be brought down either in effectiveness or a significant point increase. I like what Ward did with it, the hydra is less powerfull but also cheaper and can synergize very well with other things (see above, life sorceress e.g.).

Black Guard will probably always hit first even against HE, they reroll to hit every round of combat, reroll 1s to wound, have multiple attacks and are stubborn. 15 points is the right price, they are not overpriced by any means. In any case I would never sacrifice BG nor Executioners with the dagger, thats what warriors are there for.

About the hydra/Kharibdyss: are the handlers truly only for show or are their attacks in their profile? We know that the special handler rule isn`t there anymore, that doesn`t mean however that the attacks are gone.

Symrivven
02-10-2013, 12:56
I'm not convinced that life magic and the dagger are that great. Regrowth is 12+ to cast for and average of 3 wounds. Considering you need 3 dice to reliably cast it with a lvl 4 you wont really win anything by sacrificing and then healing, actually you lose an average of 1.5 dice or 3 wounds (whichever way you want to see it). At best it gives you a bit more control over when the power dice arrive (which is nice) but its far from game breaking.
Of course with Throne it gets a bit better but you still wont break even.

Soundwave
02-10-2013, 12:58
Excellent analergie there Thori the cauldron is a massive points sink,leaving little in the way of characters,yet if you can tailor lists for "mates" or semi commpetative hammer time a Khainite list works spectacularey well against the dead,(khemri,vamps),chaos,deamons and ogres.
Anywhere a good punch on ensures khainite lists work well,oh forgot orcs...and beastmen.We can do it better through sheer spite yet the casualties are high and only marginal victory is available.

Rakariel
02-10-2013, 13:01
I think its good that the cauldron is as it is now. Do you remember a few days ago when some people claimed that lists would only be comprised of two welf hordes with a cauldron respectively? Well, if the cauldron was that good that is exactly what we would see all the time. I am really against units that are so good noone ever takes something else. Thats mostly a Cruddace AB design flaw and I am glad it seems its not the case with the new DE book.

Knifeparty
02-10-2013, 13:05
I like that Executioners will put the fear of god (or Khaine) into the enemy, Just like no one charges white lions, I think even less people will charge Executioners because of how dangerous it is for Characters to be anywhere near that unit. Drop a lvl 4 in there and she's pretty much safe. Run them beside a Witch Horde with a cauldron and that's starting to look pretty scary.

Rakariel
02-10-2013, 13:08
Anyone know about the Handlers attacks or if the normal chariot had a price increase?

Soundwave
02-10-2013, 13:14
I like that Executioners will put the fear of god (or Khaine) into the enemy, Just like no one charges white lions, I think even less people will charge Executioners because of how dangerous it is for Characters to be anywhere near that unit. Drop a lvl 4 in there and she's pretty much safe. Run them beside a Witch Horde with a cauldron and that's starting to look pretty scary.

Do executioners need str 7 though?Killing blow and m.p(do they have this spec rule?) I can see it used elsewhere.

Rakariel
02-10-2013, 13:23
Every DE has MP.

Soundwave
02-10-2013, 13:37
Every DE has MP.

Well there you go! Executioners are now 100% completeley self sufficient,with re-rolls and strike at iniatative a small block of 20 is a serious threat in any list or situation,guaranteed to be shot to pieces here though.I personally will not be hordeing anything i am looking at support and speed that hits like a ton of bricks(dropped at 7000meters mind you) to deal with stars and play styles.
In my own lists i want to be highly effective in all four phases,particullarly movement and combat.(damn i need the book!).

Knifeparty
02-10-2013, 13:37
I wasn't really implying that they do need strength 7, although it may not be a bad idea if you run into a lot of Frost Phoenixes, Steam Tanks and Warsphynx's like I do.

It's the fact that they now can join Khainite units that got me excited. I always figured that there were magic users inside the Cult of Khaine, especially after reading the Malus Darkblade series. I was thinking of converting up a male Dark Elf sorcerer as an Adept of Khaine.

Rakariel
02-10-2013, 13:40
...damn i need the book!....
Yeah me too! :D

Good idea with the Excecutioners. Instead of a horde running maybe two units of 15 is expensive but they will pretty much kill every chaff, warmachine etc. and are also a serious threat to cav due to KB and ASF and MP (jeez ;)).

Morathi's Darkest Sin
02-10-2013, 13:42
Aye, even if they haven't given us a stat line for them, the choice of lores being open, will allow for some simple but fluffy Disciple of Khaine conversions. Any Lore of Life casters in my force will get converted that way. :)

Rakariel
02-10-2013, 13:45
Aye, even if they haven't given us a stat line for them, the choice of lores being open, will allow for some simple but fluffy Disciple of Khaine conversions. Any Lore of Life casters in my force will get converted that way. :)

Man thanks for that idea, sounds great. Just have to think of suitable bits hmm. Will nick that if you don`t mind ;)

Thori
02-10-2013, 13:50
Do executioners need str 7 though?Killing blow and m.p(do they have this spec rule?) I can see it used elsewhere.
yes because 1+save is not your friend and S6 is not enough. So we have 2 options: Razor Standard or +1S sorceress.


Rakariel

For the cauldron, its not a bad unit but it costs a lot !
Lets say you take one cauldron: 300 pts. You also need a least a lvl4: 300 pts. You need a BsB: 160+pts. OKAY you are already at 760 without lvl2 nor Some speedy Pegazus? If you want another Char, it means that you will be in trouble to have enough minis in your list, so no other Char.

Hydra: sorry but the most part of it power before was 3 things: Regen, Attacks, Cost
>Regen is now off and you only have a 4+ save to protect versus mass little arrows and canonball. If i understand well you only do your new regen at the end of your turn/phase. So you need to wait a full turn of shoot & magic & combat before rolling regen ? Hydra is already dead. Handlers are now gone so no more (like) 5++ ward.
>Attacks! 3+W(5W or 6W?): lets say you close ennemy with 3 remaining wounds: 6 attacks S5 : good but not enough versus infantry or high armour troop. It was 13 attacks in the old book even with 1 wound including handlers. Now no handlers.
>Cost: same as before
So do you really think that hydra are still good now ? :)

I don't think so for the moment. Maybe playing them again will change my mind.

Morathi's Darkest Sin
02-10-2013, 13:50
No worries, will be nice to think that a few of us Druchii players out there will be keeping one of the more interesting Warhammer Age of Reckoning classes alive. :)

Knifeparty
02-10-2013, 13:57
The hydra never used the Handlers as defence because of the special rule saying that you couldn't target them, so that's no change. On top of that you do still get handler attacks as per the monster/handler rule.

Wesser
02-10-2013, 13:59
Hydra: sorry but the most part of it power before was 3 things: Regen, Attacks, Cost
>Regen is now off and you only have a 4+ save to protect versus mass little arrows and canonball. If i understand well you only do your new regen at the end of your turn/phase. So you need to wait a full turn of shoot & magic & combat before rolling regen ? Hydra is already dead. Handlers are now gone so no more (like) 5++ ward.
>Attacks! 3+W(5W or 6W?): lets say you close ennemy with 3 remaining wounds: 6 attacks S5 : good but not enough versus infantry or high armour troop. It was 13 attacks in the old book even with 1 wound including handlers. Now no handlers.
>Cost: same as before
So do you really think that hydra are still good now ? :)

I don't think so for the moment. Maybe playing them again will change my mind.

I've heard someone mutter that it cost 160 pts. before upgrades. If that's true that it is great even if it is slow and it lost handler attacks (which ain't a given).

It still got decent amount of attacks as well as a way of regaining wounds, causes terror, can take a breath weapon, and have synergy with that Beastmaster Lord. I'd call that a pretty versatile monster overall.

Thori
02-10-2013, 14:08
Maybe i'm wrong but my noze says that BeastMaster Lord will not really be used in competitive place :) Auto include Manticore or chariot for 300+pts Char before choosing objects ? no !

Rakariel
02-10-2013, 14:09
No worries, will be nice to think that a few of us Druchii players out there will be keeping one of the more interesting Warhammer Age of Reckoning classes alive. :)
Hey I played one and liked it alot so if I can now build one as a life sorceress it will be some sort of tribute :)

@Thori
The cauldron is very expensive I am not denying that. But if you want to build a Welf list it is a very viable option. The cauldron mostly lost its usage in every single list. In my opinion this is good because it pushes us away from monotony in list building to more variety.

The hydras regen works at the end of your turn. Of course this is nowhere as good as it was before but lets face it, if the hydra had stayed the same it would be a 260+ points monster in the new book. Now you could take two for a few more points. If you go this route take a life sorceress and back those hydras up with regrowth, Flesh to stone etc. Again the hydra went from a no brainer choice everyone and his mother includes in his list to something that works well if taken with the right, synergizing setup. The thing is, you cannot really compare the old hydra to the new one, as the old one was broken as hell and should have never existed like it did.

My question is: Do you want a monster that is so good everyone has to take it because if not you will decrease your overall compatability? Seriously diminishing overall variety in the process (see WoC and Chimeras). Or do you want a monster that may be less good but still very valid for how much it costs? For me I can only second what Wesser said, its still a great monster that seems to be very useful overall.

Edit: I ask again, do we really know that the handlers attacks are gone just because there is no more handler rule? Maybe the attacks are a seperate profile below the hydras profile?
Edit2: I don`t think the Beastmaster Lord is the strongest choice in the book but he is not very expensive and buffs the monsters around you. If you put him into a scroungrerunner thats a BS7 S7 Boltthrower with D3 wounds and a 50% chance of inflicting an additional wound. Even on a manticore I think he has his merit. Before the manticore was just too expensive with a character but it seems that at the suggested point cost it can work in the right setup.

Knifeparty
02-10-2013, 14:17
The handlers attacks are on a separate profile just like they've always been, it's under the Monster/Handler section of the rule book.

Rakariel
02-10-2013, 14:21
The handlers attacks are on a separate profile just like they've always been, it's under the Monster/Handler section of the rule book.
Thanks KP, confirming what I expected :)

Thori
02-10-2013, 14:22
The handlers attacks are on a separate profile just like they've always been, it's under the Monster/Handler section of the rule book.
Good news ! So ld8 for the monster . How many attacks each ?

@Rakariel
Thinking of it, its really the random attack number wich bother me !

Rakariel
02-10-2013, 14:28
Yeah I know Thori the loss of the attacks is there but if you look at it its still a rather cheap monster that can regen and has as a worst case scenario one S5 + D6 S5 + four S4 rerollable to hit, ASF, MP, AP hits (handlers). Thats still not bad at all. Look at other monsters, what they cost and how many attacks they have and you will see they are worse off ;)

I think the handlers are the same as before.

Soundwave
02-10-2013, 14:32
[QUOTE=Thori;6938265]yes because 1+save is not your friend and S6 is not enough. So we have 2 options: Razor Standard or +1S sorceress.



Well please sir i do not diss your element of relevation and understand our views differ,yet with my own personal view i do not need executioners in my army with strenght seven re-rolling their killing blow on a natural one.
Your information is highly relevent and with all of us,yet bear in mind i see things on a differing scale and like to spread my power across the board.:).
But anyhow it is a great discussion so far so keep it coming!

Thori
02-10-2013, 14:50
[QUOTE=Thori;6938265]yes because 1+save is not your friend and S6 is not enough. So we have 2 options: Razor Standard or +1S sorceress.

Well please sir i do not diss your element of relevation and understand our views differ,yet with my own personal view i do not need executioners in my army with strenght seven re-rolling their killing blow on a natural one.
Your information is highly relevent and with all of us,yet bear in mind i see things on a differing scale and like to spread my power across the board.:).
But anyhow it is a great discussion so far so keep it coming!

Yep no problem :) The problem is not normal cavalery 1+ save because KB is there. The problem is high armor MC (Emp, OK, WoC, Dem(?)) and having -4AS. But maybe i was too much traumatize playing with my OK versus these armies ^^

Knifeparty
02-10-2013, 14:54
A level 2 on beasts with the Tomb of Furion wouldn't be bad. Boost the Hydra up to St/T 6, or give a noble Savage Beast of Horrors combined with the Cloak of Twilight for 6 strength 7 killing blow/d3 wound attacks.

Soundwave
02-10-2013, 14:55
[QUOTE=Soundwave;6938324]

Yep no problem :) The problem is not normal cavalery 1+ save because KB is there. The problem is high armor MC (Emp, OK, WoC, Dem(?)) and having -4AS. But maybe i was too much traumatize playing with my OK versus these armies ^^

i understand,killing blow will not work on the above given examples anyhow;)

Rakariel
02-10-2013, 15:10
I`d actually use hydras and Kharibdyss against other Monsters and MCav. Especially the latter has a very high WS for a monster backed up by pretty high strength attacks while being apparently relatively cheap. Together with two scroungerunners they`ll go monster and MCav hunting.

Soundwave
02-10-2013, 15:19
I`d actually use hydras and Kharibdyss against other Monsters and MCav. Especially the latter has a very high WS for a monster backed up by pretty high strength attacks while being apparently relatively cheap. Together with two scroungerunners they`ll go monster and MCav hunting.
Well speaking of low toughness a balance of these toughness five creatures and options can really help.I love cold one chariots for this.Are they still three up on armor?

Rakariel
02-10-2013, 15:24
No idea if they have changed or not. Would be very interested aswell. What we do know is that they will sport two more S4 attacks due to the Cold Ones so I guess the chariot will be more expensive. If they stayed the same pointwise I would be very happy however ;).

Soundwave
02-10-2013, 15:31
Dare i say it will have gone up in points,well that is ok we have to look at making the most of our resources again.People are under the impression that the Dark Elves are uber now yet field testing will prove their quality and it is not as high as most think...we have a full unit less now and we must tread carefully.

Rakariel
02-10-2013, 15:46
I would be very surprised if it hasn`t gone up. If its in line however I don`t mind. Seeing the Scroungerunner being not that cheap I guess the normal version will be cheaper but by how much I dare not say. Hope its somewhere near a WoC chariot but less in any case.

Soundwave
02-10-2013, 15:54
I would be very surprised if it hasn`t gone up. If its in line however I don`t mind. Seeing the Scroungerunner being not that cheap I guess the normal version will be cheaper but by how much I dare not say. Hope its somewhere near a WoC chariot but less in any case.

Scroungerunner i will sugest in pairs!You can pull a monster to and fro it is a fantastic piece of highly mobile artillery that can not only skewer monsters and pull them out of position,yet slay knights and hordes that may become to familiar with a flank...

Rakariel
02-10-2013, 16:01
A beastmaster lord on a runner has BS7 means he hits on a 2+ even at long range and after moving :D

Soundwave
02-10-2013, 16:09
A beastmaster lord on a runner has BS7 means he hits on a 2+ even at long range and after moving :D
Well three if this is the case:D.

Frankly
02-10-2013, 16:47
'dusts off 30 dark riders, 30 harpies, 30 shades, 4 assassins ....'

Reads this thread ...

Fist pumps!

Any news on harpies? My favorite dark elf unit.

Rakariel
02-10-2013, 16:51
Any news on harpies? My favorite dark elf unit.
I think apart from them being special now I don`t think any changes have been mentioned.

Soundwave
02-10-2013, 16:53
I think apart from them being special now I don`t think any changes have been mentioned.

Use of generals leadership is key here,no more "beasts rule"and i think so............given there points an all.

Soundwave
02-10-2013, 16:56
'dusts off 30 dark riders, 30 harpies, 30 shades, 4 assassins ....'

Reads this thread ...

Fist pumps!

Any news on harpies? My favorite dark elf unit.
Pumped bro dust off and up! I can not promise easy wins yet only satisfying tasty murder!;).

Don Zeko
02-10-2013, 17:10
A beastmaster lord on a runner has BS7 means he hits on a 2+ even at long range and after moving :D

Sure, but wouldn't it be better to take two regular ones for the same price?

Nixon28/02
02-10-2013, 17:17
What's happened to the new Cold ones? Have they changed much, seeing as the models are nice and I very much like that Fineca$h Dreadlord on Cold one

Wesser
02-10-2013, 17:19
Sure, but wouldn't it be better to take two regular ones for the same price?

Well he could team up with a Hydra.

He shoots monsters and boosts Hydra

Hydra goes stomping with bonus and can act as a bodyguard for him

ither option might be viable

Soundwave
02-10-2013, 17:22
What's happened to the new Cold ones? Have they changed much, seeing as the models are nice and I very much like that Fineca$h Dreadlord on Cold one

He has terrible hair...really,really bad hair day but hey yeah,cold one knights just got better for the minimum points vs performance "tax" in the whole range!

Rakariel
02-10-2013, 17:26
Sure, but wouldn't it be better to take two regular ones for the same price?

Pretty much what Wesser said. I was thinking about a monster heavy list (a few hydras, Kharibdyss, medusas, dragons) backed up by chariots. If its a monster heavy list why not take a Beastmaster, hes not all that expensive for what he is and can synergize well with them. Actually I would take two normal runners and him on one aswell. He can be screened by the big monsters and will in tandem be very useful in taking out other monsters, MCav (hello hitting on a 2+, wounding on a 2+ and no AS) or MInv. Question is if the pulling away ability only works on monsters or MCav and MInv aswell.

Soundwave
02-10-2013, 17:54
Tandem is the word for this thread,i can not see any units winning solo.Also speed with slice and shred,are key factors here as well as synergie between magic,support and the various units available,Dark Elves hit,hard and fast you can not let your opponent control these factors.It lies within a solid deployment and simple plan.

warplock
02-10-2013, 19:15
>Attacks! 3+W(5W or 6W?): lets say you close ennemy with 3 remaining wounds: 6 attacks S5 : good but not enough versus infantry or high armour troop. It was 13 attacks in the old book even with 1 wound including handlers.

Huh? The Hydra has 7 attacks in the 7th Ed. book. Including two supporting attacks from the handlers, that's 9. If you somehow played the handlers as having 2 attacks each through the Hydra (even though they're supporting attacks) that's still only 11.

Last Edition
02-10-2013, 20:55
Huh? The Hydra has 7 attacks in the 7th Ed. book. Including two supporting attacks from the handlers, that's 9. If you somehow played the handlers as having 2 attacks each through the Hydra (even though they're supporting attacks) that's still only 11.

supporting attacks? what are you saying, that handlers did attacks as being in 2nd rank? Im afraid beastmasters had 3 attack each in last book. 7+6 attacks

Rakariel
02-10-2013, 20:58
No thats wrong. The handlers had 2 attacks in 7th with the AP rule. The attacks were not supporting attacks, a hydra therefore did seven S5 and 4 S3 AP attacks in combat.

mostlyharmless
02-10-2013, 21:02
No thats wrong. The handlers had 2 attacks in 7th with the AP rule. The attacks were not supporting attacks, a hydra therefore did seven S5 and 4 S3 AP attacks in combat.

Beastmasters had hand weapon and beastlashes, which counted as additional hand weapons, so they actually had three attacks each.

Last Edition
02-10-2013, 21:03
Beastmasters had hand weapon and beastlashes, which counted as additional hand weapons, so they actually had three attacks each.

correct :)

warplock
02-10-2013, 21:04
Beastmasters had hand weapon and beastlashes, which counted as additional hand weapons, so they actually had three attacks each.

Ah, I forgot that the Beastmasters had 2A on their profile. Mental!

Knifeparty
02-10-2013, 21:05
Handlers had 3 attacks each in 7th edition guys, mostlyharmless has got it right.

Rakariel
02-10-2013, 21:05
You are right, I have overlooked that. Serves me right, not been using a Hydra in some time.

Chain
03-10-2013, 00:17
Just wondering is there any news regarding Khainites?

Do WE & Executioners retain Khainite? If yes what does it do now?
Can we still chose Gifts of Khaine?

Orphic
03-10-2013, 00:35
I'm in the process of making movement trays for my units/figuring out how many models to buy.

I was wondering what's a good frontage to actually run with units?

a18no
03-10-2013, 02:20
All my trays are 5*2. So I can field horde or steadfast unit, and reform easely during a game.

Rakariel
03-10-2013, 08:10
For 20mm models I have mostly 5*4 to easily reform from horde to bunker (for units like corsairs or warriors). For XBows I build the trays 5*2 and for specialist troops like Executioners I have some 7*5 trays aswell. For skirmishers I am mostly building custom made trays (harpies, shades).

Dooks Dizzo
03-10-2013, 08:59
What do people think of putting a level 2 on a cold one in a unit of Cold One Knights and then casting Power of Darknes AND giving the unit frenzy with the bound spell off the cauldron?

Even a minimum sized unit would be putting out 11 S6 attacks and 15 S5 attacks on the charge or just 26 S5 attacks with no charge. All for 230 points. Assuming you were going to take a cauldron anyway.

I also think that Witch Brew giving auto frezny to a unit is huge. Basically a Hag with the brew can give +1 attacks to any infantry unit you want for dirt cheap.

Rakariel
03-10-2013, 10:08
Even without the bound spell from the cauldron a 10 men unit of CoKs and a Sorc accompanying them will be dishing out massive dmg. On the charge thats 10 S7 ASF, MP and 10 S5 attacks. Maybe put in an AP banner and thats really gonna hurt (even MCav like Demis or Skullcrushers). I would even go so far and run a cheap lv1 beast sorc on a steed with wyssans behind them for another +1S and 1+T.

Symrivven
03-10-2013, 11:03
'dusts off 30 dark riders, 30 harpies, 30 shades, 4 assassins ....'

Reads this thread ...

Fist pumps!

Any news on harpies? My favorite dark elf unit.

You might sprinkle some new dust over your harpies they are now apparently 15, special and keep the same stats.


Just wondering is there any news regarding Khainites?

Do WE & Executioners retain Khainite? If yes what does it do now?
Can we still chose Gifts of Khaine?

IIRC its gone, but witches get some kind of bad **** crazy rule where they inflict d6 str3 hits on non hag/assassin characters joining them (might be on a 4+).

Gifts have been modified hags have 3 choices assasins have 3 poisons.

AngelofSorrow
03-10-2013, 11:08
Having the book in front of me (unless I'm missing something) hydra and kharib do not benefit from monster and handler rules. Unit type is monster and there are no stats for the beastmasters.


Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk 2

Symrivven
03-10-2013, 11:13
You are indeed a bringer of sorrow. :/


Thanks for clearing that up.

Eldarin Hope
03-10-2013, 11:14
The handlers attacks are on a separate profile just like they've always been, it's under the Monster/Handler section of the rule book.

Is this not true then?

AngelofSorrow
03-10-2013, 11:23
Is this not true then?

Like I said unless I'm missing something ( could be the case) I'm not seeing anything regarding the beastmasters.
There is no profile listed for them in the army list portion and unit type is monster.

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk 2

Setomidor
03-10-2013, 11:55
Having the book in front of me (unless I'm missing something) hydra and kharib do not benefit from monster and handler rules. Unit type is monster and there are no stats for the beastmasters.

Unfortunately, this is consistent with information from other's with the book :/

Edit: However, other's like Knifeparty seem to be confident it's in there somewhere. Here is a though, what language is your book? could it possibly be lost in translation?

Rakariel
03-10-2013, 12:16
I guess if there really is no usable Ld from handlers anymore, babysitting the monsters with a beastmaster lord or hero will be necessary (or very helpful atleast). On a sidenote others indeed are claiming to have seen the handlers on a seperate profile. Whatever the outcome if there are no more handlers I find it rather strange they even put em on the base with the monster. While this doesn`t have to indicate seperate rules it strikes me as unusal not using half of the base for two models that have no more impact on the model.

AngelofSorrow
03-10-2013, 12:22
Unfortunately, this is consistent with information from other's with the book :/

Edit: However, other's like Knifeparty seem to be confident it's in there somewhere. Here is a though, what language is your book? could it possibly be lost in translation?


My book is English.

I only have the army list entries in front of me at current


Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk 2

Thori
03-10-2013, 12:36
Playing Hydra/Kraken without Handlers is a joke !!
No thanks for me.

Rakariel
03-10-2013, 13:01
If you only have the army list entries I remain highly sceptical sorry. I still believe the handlers are there ;)

BUB
03-10-2013, 13:07
Here's my take on what might be a pretty solid list.

Dreadlord: Cloak Of Twilight; Charmed Shield; Dawnstone; Dark Pegasus; lance; heavy armour; shield; Sea Dragon Cloak.
Supreme Sorceress: Dispel Scroll; Level 4 Wizard; Death

Master: Glittering Scales; shield; Sea Dragon Cloak; Battle Standard.

10 Dark Shards
10 Dark Shards
30 Witch Elves: Champion; Musician; Standard Bearer; Banner Of Eternal Flame.

30 Har Ganeth Executioners: Draich-master; Musician; Standard Bearer; Banner Of Swiftness.
Reaper Bolt Thrower
Reaper Bolt Thrower
Reaper Bolt Thrower
Reaper Bolt Thrower

5 Warlocks
5 Warlocks
Kharibdyss

Setomidor
03-10-2013, 13:16
@BUB: I like it, pretty close to my own, but I have more Dark Riders as core instead of WE. I also think you want that flaming banner on the crossbows to remove any regeneration before your RBTs let lose.

Wesser
03-10-2013, 13:31
I guess if there really is no usable Ld from handlers anymore, babysitting the monsters with a beastmaster lord or hero will be necessary (or very helpful atleast). On a sidenote others indeed are claiming to have seen the handlers on a seperate profile. Whatever the outcome if there are no more handlers I find it rather strange they even put em on the base with the monster. While this doesn`t have to indicate seperate rules it strikes me as unusal not using half of the base for two models that have no more impact on the model.

Not at all. I really hate that monsters such as Chimeras are running around on their own. The whole thing about "bound" monsters is a bit weak. Visualizing handlers help explain things beyond "a wizard did it" and helps tie it to the rest of the army.

So if handlers are gone, I'm glad they kept them visually

superawesomeraptorman
03-10-2013, 13:32
Although it is early days yet I'm seeing some great combinations.

I believe Dark Elves might be one of the hardest hitting armies yet.

I however am not seeing the tools right now to compete with the hardest WoC, Skaven and Empire armies. I do see a lot of potential against OK, VC, O&G, HE, LM.

Things I'm keen to try

1. Scourgerunners - whilst I'm dubious about the shooting due to the likely hood of -1 for long range and -1 for moving and shooting, I believe with some reaper bolthrowers/crossbow you can put some serious hurt on crucial targets like monstrous cav, and monsters.
2. Dreadlord - Dark Pegasus, 1+ armour, Dawnstone, potion of strength, lance - he picks his fights, he charges in, he hits with re-rollable attacks (ASF), and re-rollable ones (MP). D3 first round of combat, he can easily finish off monsters, do serious damage against MC, as well as hunt warmachines and assassinate characters (eyeing up 1+ armour save high elf lord in dragon princes)
3. small unit of executioners hitting hard into the flank
4. Careful debuffs, including soulblight from warlocks ensuring your opponents units can't hit as hard
5. I believe the hydra and kharbyss have a lot of potential. Low cost, hard hitting. They are cannon fodder yes, but so are many monsters.

I see a lot of good things overall, I don't think they'll dramatically alter the current meta though

Rakariel
03-10-2013, 14:18
Don`t get me wrong Wesser, its not that I wouldn`t like the fluffy part of having a monster with handlers but I think its a bit strange that GW would put two figures on a base nearly occupying half of it without them ever being relevant rules wise. I may be an optimist but I still think that the handlers are present rules wise aswell.

Btw a chimera with handlers, would they be strapped to its back or hanging on ropes while the chimera is flying around? ;)

A list without the book, hmm... atop of my head I would try:

Supreme Sorc lv4 Dark Magic
Sorceress lv2 Dark Magic on Cold one with Black Amulet
Sorceress lv Beast Magic on Steed with Scroll
Master on Peg, new Cloak, GW, HA,

30 Corsairs
12 XBows
12 XBows
5 Dark Rider
5 Dark Rider

10 Cold One Knights
15 Executioners
15 Executioners
Chariot
Chariot
Scroungerunner
Scroungerunner

5 Warlocks
K-Rib

No real idea about actual point costs so don`t know how much that is but should be around 2500. Lv4 into XBows, lv2 Dark Magic Sorc into Cold One Knights to buff them up second lv2 to either buff corsairs or CoKs. Don`t know if effective but I`d give it a go. One thing is for sure however, we can try lots of different combinations :D.

Knifeparty
03-10-2013, 14:26
I think that last edition's Dark Elf book was an exception to the rule for Dark Elves.

I don't think that they have ever been a meta changer necessarily, but instead just really excel at whatever they decide to be good at, except for survivability. These guys are now the ultimate glass cannon, and I think people need to realize that they will loose quite a few guys before they get into combat.

Armies like WoC were never a problem for Dark Elves because we can out manoeuvre them, and beat them in combat. The only thing is now they have an awesome Daemon Prince that you need to get rid of, but thats why we have bolt throwers and one of the best magic lore's in the game.

HE I still think are a better army than DE for all comers, but I honestly think that DE armies are going to be the bane of HE armies now. Our access to witch elves gives us the answer to the two things that no one else seems to have an answer for (white lions, Frost Phoenix).

Vampire Counts won't even be able to stand a chance against DE.

It's a shame about loosing the Monster/Handler rule for Hydra's if thats true.

Rakariel
03-10-2013, 14:30
I think the term "glass cannon" really fits the style of the army now. I actually like it. Yes there will be lots of losses but when we do get into combat... well Khaine will be happy I guess ;).

mostlyharmless
03-10-2013, 16:59
It's entirely possible that the monster and handlers are printed in some and not others. I suspend judgment until I have the book in my hands. It's also entirely possible for us to get a first day FAQ, just like what the Tau got, and quite a few other books. They have made mistakes in the past.

Rakariel
03-10-2013, 18:25
- Okay I can confirm that the hydra has no more handlers anymore. Two upgrades, one is flame breath as usual the other a flame shot which has S and amount of shots equal to the current wounds the hydra has; the hydra has 3 + one attack for every wound it still has; therefore its 8 attacks with all wounds and 4 attacks if she only has one wound left
- Peg is in
- normal chariot is a tad more expensive but not much, stats are the same
- manticore can have two upgrades: 4+ Scaly Skin and +W3 attacks
- The cauldrons bound spell is power level 3
- The bloodwreck shrine isn`t all that expensive considering there is a medusa on top of it and is a chariot that can march, its like a debuffing version of the empire laser wagons but far more offensive considering the medusa is attacking aswell
- Kharibdyss has poison attacks and a 4+ Scaly Skin

Have someone beside me who got the book today, ask away ;)

Reading the book I must say the only real thing that bugs me is that there are no handlers anymore. But its not something major tbh.

mostlyharmless
03-10-2013, 20:01
- Okay I can confirm that the hydra has no more handlers anymore. Two upgrades, one is flame breath as usual the other a flame shot which has S and amount of shots equal to the current wounds the hydra has; the hydra has 3 + one attack for every wound it still has; therefore its 8 attacks with all wounds and 4 attacks if she only has one wound left
- Peg is in
- normal chariot is a tad more expensive but not much, stats are the same
- manticore can have two upgrades: 4+ Scaly Skin and +W3 attacks
- The cauldrons bound spell is power level 3
- The bloodwreck shrine isn`t all that expensive considering there is a medusa on top of it and is a chariot that can march, its like a debuffing version of the empire laser wagons but far more offensive considering the medusa is attacking aswell
- Kharibdyss has poison attacks and a 4+ Scaly Skin

Have someone beside me who got the book today, ask away ;)

Reading the book I must say the only real thing that bugs me is that there are no handlers anymore. But its not something major tbh.

Hrm, I see, no handlers in the book profile? How disconcerting. I will be writing a stern letter explaining the idiocy of having something redundant like handlers on a monster's model when they no longer have handlers.

Rakariel
03-10-2013, 20:25
Hrm, I see, no handlers in the book profile? How disconcerting. I will be writing a stern letter explaining the idiocy of having something redundant like handlers on a monster's model when they no longer have handlers.
Nope there are no handlers in the profile. I am quite surprised by that aswell if am honest. Its still a Ld6 monster so thats not all that bad but still. The chariots are a steal however, the stats are great and they got two more S4 attacks and ASF and MP on the handlers on top of it. Whats interesting is that the way it is written it seems the Cold ones have MP aswell.

Artinam
03-10-2013, 21:10
I'm a bit confused about the Warlocks, what is so good about them?
Yes they are fast and they do have a decent wardsave but aren't they very vulnerable (like normal fastcav) to shooting and the like.

Their spells are nice but you also need enough dice to utilise them. I'd take normal Dark Riders over them.

Rakariel
03-10-2013, 21:17
Dark riders cannot run up and sniper characters out of units with one of the best spells in the game. An inbuilt 4+ ward makes warlocks pretty resilient against miscasts too and if they do and don`t make the ward only a few of them die and not an expensive caster. The other spell is nothing to sneeze at neither. Dark Riders cannot put out the hurt as warlocks can. Besides they don`t really compete in points as DRs are core and Warlocks rare.

Brotheroracle
03-10-2013, 22:03
The problem is they compete with the K-dis.

Rakariel
03-10-2013, 22:11
Its a complete different role the Warlocks have in comparison to the Kharibdyss. The latter is no new version of the old hydra, more expensive, no more handlers and will die without company (other monsters) very quickly to cannon balls. Sure, its by no means a bad unit but I would only include a Kharibdyss if I do a list that supports monsters in general.

AngelofSorrow
03-10-2013, 22:48
- Okay I can confirm that the hydra has no more handlers anymore. Two upgrades, one is flame breath as usual the other a flame shot which has S and amount of shots equal to the current wounds the hydra has; the hydra has 3 + one attack for every wound it still has; therefore its 8 attacks with all wounds and 4 attacks if she only has one wound left
- Peg is in
- normal chariot is a tad more expensive but not much, stats are the same
- manticore can have two upgrades: 4+ Scaly Skin and +W3 attacks
- The cauldrons bound spell is power level 3
- The bloodwreck shrine isn`t all that expensive considering there is a medusa on top of it and is a chariot that can march, its like a debuffing version of the empire laser wagons but far more offensive considering the medusa is attacking aswell
- Kharibdyss has poison attacks and a 4+ Scaly Skin

Have someone beside me who got the book today, ask away ;)

Reading the book I must say the only real thing that bugs me is that there are no handlers anymore. But its not something major tbh.

I knew I wasn't blind :p about the handlers. I have the book been reading it since Monday. Just had the army list portion in pics at work.

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk 2

Wesser
04-10-2013, 07:00
Hrm, I see, no handlers in the book profile? How disconcerting. I will be writing a stern letter explaining the idiocy of having something redundant like handlers on a monster's model when they no longer have handlers.

I couldn't disagree more

Apart from that I'm bit miffed as a VC and Empire player

My poor state troops will get murdered and with the abundance of monsters and chariots, I'll have to take more cannons (though it's apparently beardy if I do...)

Seems my VC will have to include a Blender Lord every time... A list that just murder average foot troops and monsters? Not sure what the poor ol' vampires are going to do about that.... maybe ethereal spam will be the option... can dark elf champs still take magic weapons?

Morathi's Darkest Sin
04-10-2013, 07:10
The only shame with the monsters will be the risk from panic rolls, or if a combat goes south, but I suppose eight isn't much better on the latter anyways. Still bloody odd, especially as they have been a feature since we had the monster in our book, and other races have the same mechanic. More than once in the past of my previous Druchii armies a handler attack had turned a combat in the Hydra's favour.

Rakariel
04-10-2013, 07:27
I knew I wasn't blind :p about the handlers. I have the book been reading it since Monday. Just had the army list portion in pics at work.
No you weren`t :)
I just hoped you were mistaken, but now that I saw it myself, well. Its a shame and really not that understandable considering the fluffy nature of handlers themselves. It makes sense for monsters such as hydras or kharibdysses to be goaded along the way not to mistakenly plow into their own troops! They even put them on the model why they got rid of the rules I don`t know. Well as Wesser said earlier already its good however that the handlers atleast are represented visually and it doesn`t make a whole lot of difference anyway.

Regarding Welfs and the Cauldron and some saying that it would be common sight to see two hordes of them and two cauldrons. I highly doubt that. The costs are so high that if you that you seriously diminish your overall effectiveness because you won`t have enough points left to put units into your list to counter something Welfs cannot easily beat.

All in all after reading the book I really like it. There is some strange design decisions (no handlers, banner of N. and magic weapons cost) but they are minor and won`t break the book, neither making it overpowered nor bland nor weak. I think they did a good job on the whole project, making room for some nice army combinations and alot of variety in general. I do not want to bash the Lizardmen book but in comparison I find the new DE (and also the new HE) alot more appealing due to not being bland.

Rakariel
04-10-2013, 07:30
Seems my VC will have to include a Blender Lord every time... A list that just murder average foot troops and monsters? Not sure what the poor ol' vampires are going to do about that.... maybe ethereal spam will be the option... can dark elf champs still take magic weapons?
Cold One Knight and Black Guard Champs can take one.

Morathi's Darkest Sin
04-10-2013, 07:30
On a side note, is Hellebron a viable choice. Been waiting for ages to have her lead my army again, hoping she isn't crippled by an insane pts cost?

Rakariel
04-10-2013, 07:34
Can`t say as I don`t have the book on my atm. Another sidenote, Malus Darkblade is a Lord now (he was a hero before wasn`t he?) so maaaaaybe we will see a new model? ;)

Morathi's Darkest Sin
04-10-2013, 07:44
Hope so, spite looks awful compared to the redesign, hopefully he'll get a new model in the same vein as how Tyrion was improved last time for Asur.

As to Witch Elves chat, think I'll be going forty carrying the Cauldron, seems like a good centre to cause chaos in an opponents battle line.

Rakariel
04-10-2013, 09:48
I think Malus is very much possible. Iconic character, now a lord choice, if hes done well he is on my to buy list instantly. If I am doing a Welf list I would do pretty much the same, one horde with the cauldron and another 20-30 on top of it ;)

Soundwave
04-10-2013, 14:03
It will be ok guys worry not about any of the nerfs from what i have read our Dark Elves are still top tier warrior elves with fantastic speed and lightning quick death.Being fairly traditional in formation and play style units such as shades and dark riders have become even more indispensable,these our our tools to deal with a variety of situations and will shine even more now.
Shooting will hurt us alot the dwarven and high elf archer line will still be a problem.Do assassins still have the ability scout? A unit of shades with an assassin make for an incredible crack team to kill small blocks of shooting and then war machines.

Rakariel
04-10-2013, 14:17
You can put an assassin in every possible DE unit except harpies.

Symrivven
04-10-2013, 14:23
Because you will not be fielding harpies. ;)

Soundwave
04-10-2013, 14:34
Because you will not be fielding harpies. ;)

They can use the generals leadership now right? So in a solid mini star of,meaning one or two budget characters in a block of cold one knights and if your general is one of those characters and can keep a flock of harpies together than maybe yes... rolling toward ripe pickings of war machine crew is a good thing,do harpys have m.p?

Rakariel
04-10-2013, 14:35
Because you will not be fielding harpies. ;)
I will if I think I will need them. Neither Dark Riders nor Shades have the same maneuverability (as in 20 inch fly march) as harpies do. Depends on your playstile really.

@Soundwave: I agree with your argument. And no to your question.

Soundwave
04-10-2013, 14:47
What do we do for chaff now guys? Everything is so damn expensive now?

Rakariel
04-10-2013, 14:53
Multiple 10 men Swords Warrior units should work. We have nothing cheaper.

Soundwave
04-10-2013, 14:58
Multiple 10 men Swords Warrior units should work. We have nothing cheaper.

Urghh well they have threat potential yet i do not think they are anywhere quick enough...i think with the bolt thrower reduction i am leaning toward shoot and slice with units of cleverly deployed shades for back up budget ones or maybe spear riders yet if caught out becomes costly?

Rakariel
04-10-2013, 15:02
Well if I am honest I would include DR in a normal setup anyway. I don`t know if I would do 2x5 DRs or 1x5 DR and 1x5 Harpies but in terms of chaff we do have options, albeit no cheap ones. But then again our chaff is far better than other armies chaff, it all evens out I guess. You could even do 2x10 Executioners, they sure as hell will kill all other chaff easily but are very susceptible to shooting. It depends on your setup pretty much.

Soundwave
04-10-2013, 15:09
Well if I am honest I would include DR in a normal setup anyway. I don`t know if I would do 2x5 DRs or 1x5 DR and 1x5 Harpies but in terms of chaff we do have options, albeit no cheap ones. But then again our chaff is far better than other armies chaff, it all evens out I guess. You could even do 2x10 Executioners, they sure as hell will kill all other chaff easily but are very susceptible to shooting. It depends on your setup pretty much.

Yep agreed,not so much with the exos.I think i will be using 10 man corsair handbow units now given the extension plus the added durability.I dont know what it is with me but i can not do smaller than 6 for any cav unit.5 never works for me.

Rakariel
04-10-2013, 15:12
Hmm 10 men corsairs with bows, that idea I like too :)

Soundwave
04-10-2013, 15:24
Hmm 10 men corsairs with bows, that idea I like too :)
But 10 man executioners can add some serious power to a fight mid field,in the thick of things your idea is great also! And they can clear any chaff threatening the center fight also. Just to clarify i am looking into the first wave of our attack and all the special opp units perform well,they just got a little more pricey.:/.

Rakariel
04-10-2013, 15:31
Thats what I like about the book, so many options and everything looks overall viable. I`m also thinking of including a few Reavers in most lists. They are pretty cheap and can clear chaff or be a real danger to MCav.

Soundwave
04-10-2013, 15:38
Reavers?Meaning bolt throwers?Reapers?

Dark Elf
04-10-2013, 15:46
About chaff. What will be the pricing of Bleakswords? 4.5 slaves or 4? They shouldn't be the same price as Darkspears since darkspears fight in an extra rank. So there's that, if they're 4 slaves that could work just fine.
As for harpies, I've never liked them and have very rarely used them, and I'm seeing their end in this eddition as they are special choice. Thing is, you will need those special points for executioners, bg, CoK, hydras... I don't think that there will be plenty of room for harpies in the army + you have some better options.
It also seems that corsairs will actualy be viable since SDC now confers 5+AS. Combined with LA it gives them a 4+AS for 4.5 slaves. 5.5 slaves if you take second hand weapon/repeater pistol thingy.

Now for those who haven't read I reccomend reading this this (http://plastickrak.blogspot.co.nz/2013/09/dark-elf-rules-leaked.html).
Dark riders will be able to carry a shield now and not lose the fast cav. rule and with a repeater crossbow they will be 10 slaves which is to my liking and I will probably use them as chaff/support. Though that will have to depend on the enemy I'm facing.
As for shades, I'd like to see their stats and point cost before making any assumption on them.

Rakariel
04-10-2013, 15:53
The former. They have parry, spears don`t.

mostlyharmless
04-10-2013, 15:58
With the way I play, I don't much worry about my opponent's chaff. They need to worry about my chaff. C'mon, folks, we're dark elf players. We have some of the best, fastest chaff out there, and for a very reasonable points cost. I would go with 5-man units of dark riders. Take four units and you'll overwhelm your enemy's chaff and then be in their back nine, taking out war machines.

Dark Elf
04-10-2013, 15:58
And exactly the same equipment? Eh well, it's still chaff so I'd still go with bleakswords vs dreadspears/darkspears.

Rakariel
04-10-2013, 16:01
Yep completely the same eq. I second mostlyharmkess thoughts about chaff :)

Soundwave
04-10-2013, 16:02
About chaff. What will be the pricing of Bleakswords? 4.5 slaves or 4? They shouldn't be the same price as Darkspears since darkspears fight in an extra rank. So there's that, if they're 4 slaves that could work just fine.
As for harpies, I've never liked them and have very rarely used them, and I'm seeing their end in this eddition as they are special choice. Thing is, you will need those special points for executioners, bg, CoK, hydras... I don't think that there will be plenty of room for harpies in the army + you have some better options.
It also seems that corsairs will actualy be viable since SDC now confers 5+AS. Combined with LA it gives them a 4+AS for 4.5 slaves. 5.5 slaves if you take second hand weapon/repeater pistol thingy.

Now for those who haven't read I reccomend reading this this (http://plastickrak.blogspot.co.nz/2013/09/dark-elf-rules-leaked.html).
Dark riders will be able to carry a shield now and not lose the fast cav. rule and with a repeater crossbow they will be 10 slaves which is to my liking and I will probably use them as chaff/support. Though that will have to depend on the enemy I'm facing.
As for shades, I'd like to see their stats and point cost before making any assumption on them.
Yes i did read that^;) And yeah all options in the book are great!Dark Elves have gained alot yet on the same token have lost what made them exceptional and that was an abundance of quality,now we must pay premiums for well everything and all models must fulfill the specific tasks allocated to them.WE can not afford to much in the way of losses,so deployment and roles will be very specific we cannot afford to casually lose a unit or two anymore.(and people are whinging about how "powerful we have become")
Yes corsairs are still one of the premier options as with playing we will find out.

mostlyharmless
04-10-2013, 16:04
With the way I play, I don't much worry about my opponent's chaff. They need to worry about my chaff. C'mon, folks, we're dark elf players. We have some of the best, fastest chaff out there, and for a very reasonable points cost. I would go with 5-man units of dark riders. Take four units and you'll overwhelm your enemy's chaff and then be in their back nine, taking out war machines.

Soundwave
04-10-2013, 16:26
The former. They have parry, spears don`t.
Ha hahhahahhaahahahhaahhah (insert sinister laugh) high elves do not have this option:).This is one of the things that made me the most happiest.:)

Dark Elf
04-10-2013, 16:35
Yes i did read that^;) And yeah all options in the book are great!Dark Elves have gained alot yet on the same token have lost what made them exceptional and that was an abundance of quality,now we must pay premiums for well everything and all models must fulfill the specific tasks allocated to them.WE can not afford to much in the way of losses,so deployment and roles will be very specific we cannot afford to casually lose a unit or two anymore.(and people are whinging about how "powerful we have become")
Yes corsairs are still one of the premier options as with playing we will find out.

Indeed, we are elite and thus pay the price and a fair one I think. But when did Elves , especialy Druchii, pay attention to what mere mortals told them ?
And oh yes bad deploying is going to cost now more than ever. As for roles, there's SOME (no matter how tiny) felxibility. But yeah, not enough and most units will have to fulfil their specific role.

Soundwave
04-10-2013, 16:40
Indeed, we are elite and thus pay the price and a fair one I think. But when did Elves , especialy Druchii, pay attention to what mere mortals told them ?
And oh yes bad deploying is going to cost now more than ever. As for roles, there's SOME (no matter how tiny) felxibility. But yeah, not enough and most units will have to fulfil their specific role.

Well let us do start from the ground up!Deployment. As a dark elf player do you look at what is being placed across the board or do you always take your own idea of how your army will work from your own deployment zone?

Mullitron
04-10-2013, 17:42
Based on the info we know, which appeals to you the most out of executioners and black guard? Also what do you see becoming the popular unit size/banner/characters chosen for them?

Executioners seem stronger independently , however with support of other elements, the black guard start to put out reasonable damage whilst being stubborn. Adding a sorceress with power of darkness, the razor standard and having a cauldron close by (perhaps in a unit of corsairs or witch elves) gives the black guard a reasonable damage output. Power of darkness could improved their strength to 5 (including halberds) they have re-rolls to hit, a cauldron close by would allow them re-roll roll's to wound and potentially add frenzy for a third attack. Then again you could give all those augments to executioners and even go for Tullaris/hag with witchbrew combo for +2 attacks frenzy if you wanted to be a bit more risky. Now I'am really just thinking out load, but I'am curious to think what the more learned of you think on these two units?

Dark Elf
04-10-2013, 17:58
Well let us do start from the ground up!Deployment. As a dark elf player do you look at what is being placed across the board or do you always take your own idea of how your army will work from your own deployment zone?

Hard one, especialy now. I adapt my tactics according to my enemy and that works for me since my "enemies" are all my good mates and I know them for a long time. But for the sake of conversation lets imagine facing an unknown guy/girl on a beautiful, flat, open field.

I'm thinking that this is going to be my "standard" 1000 slaves army:

Lords&Heroes will be pricy, and shouldn't exceede 350 slaves. Even 300 slaves will be a lot but I guess we're used to that. Note that I did count in some magic items, although I didn't write them down:
Lord Mage lvl 4 with dark/shadow magic (general)
Im not sure of heroes pricing and how much they cost, but suppose you can field these two for those capped 25%:
Master BSB
Hag+CoB

Core:
2x 5 dark riders with full equipment+musician. ~110 slaves
Witch Elves (full command, horde formation, at least 30 models x 5.5 slaves) ~185 slaves

Special:
As executioners strike harder than ever and are cheaper than BG, they would deffinetly be my primary choice especialy since they have the MP aka "auto-wound" against all T4 and weaker units.
So at 6 slaves per mod. taking 30 of them+command should be ~20 slaves
So far it is 855 slaves and we still have 145 slaves to go.
At this point we should check Kharybdiss (up to 125 slaves is my guess) Hydra (fully upgraded 90 slaves) and RBT's (35 slaves per model, up to 4 models in army)

I would take a hydra and 1 RBT (totaling 125)

And now its time for calculating so far we have spent 350+295+325= 970 the rest of these points can be used for magic banners and stuff like that/ or you can say they are spent since I'm dealing with mostly unknown prices. Your call.

Now deployment:
LEFT FLANK| dark riders--------- hydra--- Witch E.+CoB ----- executioners+BSB----RBT ---- Dark riders |RIGHT FLANK

Nasty thing about the power of darknes now is that it affects the casters unit, so it means our mage has to go with a unit. She'd be more useful in witch elves, but they could turn on her and quite easily kill her. Thus I'd reccomend the shadow lore for use as it is a hexy lore and the mage could be behind a unit safe from shooting and combat and we all know how good shadow is with possibility to hex down the T,S,WS,BS,I... and never forget Okkam.

That would basicly be it. Now I realise this is a pretty bad list, and until we have more acurate data we probably won't be able to make an accurate one. What I would like to see is what would you guys build based on the existing info?

Max_Killfactor
04-10-2013, 18:04
Based on the info we know, which appeals to you the most out of executioners and black guard? Also what do you see becoming the popular unit size/banner/characters chosen for them?

Executioners seem stronger independently , however with support of other elements, the black guard start to put out reasonable damage whilst being stubborn. Adding a sorceress with power of darkness, the razor standard and having a cauldron close by (perhaps in a unit of corsairs or witch elves) gives the black guard a reasonable damage output. Power of darkness could improved their strength to 5 (including halberds) they have re-rolls to hit, a cauldron close by would allow them re-roll roll's to wound and potentially add frenzy for a third attack. Then again you could give all those augments to executioners and even go for Tullaris/hag with witchbrew combo for +2 attacks frenzy if you wanted to be a bit more risky. Now I'am really just thinking out load, but I'am curious to think what the more learned of you think on these two units?

I've been trying to figure out which 2 blocks to run out of three choices: Witches, Black Guard, and Executioners.

Witches I think are going to make the cut mainly because they are Core. If they weren't, I think I would run the BG and Executies.

While I think Executioners are great for their points, I am leaning Black Guard right now. Mainly because I have a very strong preference for rerolls. I plan on putting a low level Sorc in the Black Guard with a Ring of Hotek. She will just be there for Power of Darkness. The ring should keep her relatively safe from Power of Darknesses negative effects and keep the unit safe from scary magic.

The Witches will have the Armor Piercing banner and maybe the Cauldron (I'll need to book for myself before I commit to that). I'll try to keep them close to the Ring of Hotek also.

Executioners are nice for cracking armor and scary for a lot of characters to face, but I'm leaning Black Guard, at least to start with. They served me very well under the last book. One of my main opponents is Chaos. If Black Guard can't get the job done, I still think Executioners will be an excellent unit.

I like the rules so far. I think our characters got nerfed (rightly so), but our infantry got better. Should be fun.

Dark Elf
04-10-2013, 18:07
Based on the info we know, which appeals to you the most out of executioners and black guard? Also what do you see becoming the popular unit size/banner/characters chosen for them?

Executioners seem stronger independently , however with support of other elements, the black guard start to put out reasonable damage whilst being stubborn. Adding a sorceress with power of darkness, the razor standard and having a cauldron close by (perhaps in a unit of corsairs or witch elves) gives the black guard a reasonable damage output. Power of darkness could improved their strength to 5 (including halberds) they have re-rolls to hit, a cauldron close by would allow them re-roll roll's to wound and potentially add frenzy for a third attack. Then again you could give all those augments to executioners and even go for Tullaris/hag with witchbrew combo for +2 attacks frenzy if you wanted to be a bit more risky. Now I'am really just thinking out load, but I'am curious to think what the more learned of you think on these two units?

Dont forget that its a 3 point difference between execs and BG's in favour of exe's. Although I agree with most of your post, I see the BG more of an anvil unit now rather than a hammer. And that's it, if you want to drag down your opponent slowly you should pick BG. On the other hand execs are better in general bacause they have S6 and strike in I order. bascily they will chop down half of the enemy unit before those guys can retaliate.

Soundwave
04-10-2013, 18:23
Dont forget that its a 3 point difference between execs and BG's in favour of exe's. Although I agree with most of your post, I see the BG more of an anvil unit now rather than a hammer. And that's it, if you want to drag down your opponent slowly you should pick BG. On the other hand execs are better in general bacause they have S6 and strike in I order. bascily they will chop down half of the enemy unit before those guys can retaliate.
Black guard can do that too,dont forget.They are a great anvil and hammer unit.It is against high armour that they struggle but they rarely lose combats.My biggest gripe with both mentioned units is they are very easy to kill even high elf archery can nail them to the place they stand in your deployment zone:(.

Dark Elf
04-10-2013, 18:44
Black guard can do that too,dont forget.They are a great anvil and hammer unit.It is against high armour that they struggle but they rarely lose combats.My biggest gripe with both mentioned units is they are very easy to kill even high elf archery can nail them to the place they stand in your deployment zone:(.

I guess they can especialy if you do what Max_KillFactor proposed and it does sound really nice. I guess we'll be trying them out definatley! Dunno they're my favorite and 1st unit and due to 20 models restraint they haven't seen much action since 8th ed... But until I see them in action I'll be putting my faith in exe's

Von Wibble
04-10-2013, 23:05
Gem of Spite: I'm surprised no one has pointed out how this seems to be a great Hellheart counter.



Probably because it isn't ;) Hellheart doesn't cause wizards to miscast, it just makes them roll on the miscast table. Gem of Spite only works when you miscast. These are not the same thing, so the Gem would not trigger.

Given the small range and way to mitigate the wound as well I just can't see the Gem of Spite being used.

I think the ring of Hotek doesn't increase miscast chances by enough to make it worth taking personally. I'd rather have a dispel scroll or some equivalent to this.

For me the winners in the magic items selection are the cloak, black amulet, dragon egg, tome and dagger. Dragon Egg was an item I felt was underrated in the previous book, and now it adds strength too - very nice. Shame you can't take it with the Hydra Blade on the same model!

Hydra Blade unfortunately is about twice as expensive as it should be. GW are continuing with their general trend of overpricing magic weapons - at least they are consistent.

Unlike a lot of posters I am not convinced by the S7 bolt thrower. The key reason for this is that I am paying far more than for regular S6 bolt throwers - does the price increase really justify the +1S and 7" move per turn? You can argue its a chariot - but with S4 it really doesn't do much in that role (unlike the high elf version), and unlike the Khorne version enemy units charging it are pretty likely to beat it. I think a lot of people are selling the Skycutter short compared to this, and I don't think that much to the Skycutter.

Trains get robbed asked about the mirror match - imo the best approach is going to be to use RXBs. Still a great shooting unit, and a lot of DE units are vulnerable to shooting. I will be using a unit in any game as I think they will always have some role to play. I think Cold one knights look fine too - virtually rerolling all to hit and to wounds on charge means they are a very reliable unit. A unit of 5 is not breaking the bank and can still cause headaches.

Brotheroracle
05-10-2013, 00:13
I'm thinking if your going Black Guard then you need to roll a Life Sorceress, regen, and the the possibility to grow back those expensive BG models seems like the way to go.

In fact there are three list styles that I'm interested in trying out:
Life and beast magic + Black Guard + K-dis with Crossbowmen as core

All cav, and use rare for Warlocks and have nothing slow in the army.

Corsair Themed- so blocks of corsairs, corsaira with handbows, K-dis, scourgerunner chariots, RBTs

Von Wibble
05-10-2013, 11:58
Now that I have the book, one thing that is sticking out to me is how good Tullaris is. Glass cannon for sure, but he's the kind of character enemy characters are going to be scared to go up against, and Executioners with frenzy are brutal.

No-one has mentioned the Medusa. The ability to do a fair bit of damage to things like demigryph knights looks a great choice and one that will be hard to turn down. Cheap enough to use as chaff too.

Harpies are up in price but imo still decent. Again for less than 100 points you have the best war machine hunter going.

As far as the Black Guard vs Executioners go I think Executioners look the better choice. They are cheaper, but more importantly they dent enemy armour. This is something our core struggles to do, so I feel compensation is needed in special and rare.

I thought Sisters of Slaughter had poison until reading the book. This changes them from a unit worth taking to try out to one that I don't think does too much. In a msu army I can see them having a role, otherwise I think I'll use Witch Elves from core to fill their role and take a Kharibdyss with the rare allowance.

Warlocks look to me like a good choice if you go magic light, otherwise I'd rather just have Dark Riders. Units of 5 look the way to go.

There is no choice in the book (apart from some magic items) that I could never consider using in an army. There is also no choice that screams out OP to me. This looks like a great book overall.

Mars
05-10-2013, 12:40
some observations:

- Executioners on their own got worse. striking at I is fun against lower I cavalry and monsters and what not, but I usually had enough models to survive that anyway. on the other hand they lost their re-roll on the first turn, as well as the Stuborn and 5++ from the Caudlron
with heroes they got better however. the ability to hide a Sorceress in there with black amulet and life/soulstealer to keep her wounds up is going to be a killer unit
also, Executioners have become more valuable because I can no longer have KB on any unit I want

- you can now put the CoB in units. before it always hung back, trying to keep my units in range and not forget to use its abilities, but I felt it was a shame all that combat power was trying to stay out of the action. now they give a unit extra depth, attacks, automatic ward save and optional wound re-roll, increasing its usefulness for the points you're investing

- I like the new Hydras. sure they got weaker, but as a cheaper special choice it's now easier to spam them, giving my opponent even more monsters to worry about without being called a master of cheese
in some ways, the new regeneration rule can be better. I'm asuming it's not negated by fire attacks, making it actually more survivable in a way; it regenerates all lost wounds every turn, so if you can just keep it alive long enough it will heal up completely; and you can now use Life magic to heal them up even faster

Von Wibble
05-10-2013, 16:16
Something to consider with that "regeneration" rule is that it effectively doesn't exist against units that can kill a hydra in 2 rounds of combat though, the reason being you only get to roll for it at the end of your turn. This could also mean that if the enemy put some wounds on a Hydra in their shooting phase, you may have to be cautious about charging into combat in your own turn. There are plenty of enemy units capable of finishing off a wounded Hydra in 1 go.