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misomiso
02-10-2013, 20:00
Ok, so there’s been quite a good discussion in the new power balance between armies thread, and so I thought it would be quite fun to run a forum poll on the matter.
They do these on the privateer press forums and their quite informative s to what forum posters are thinking.

Beastmen 10
Bretonnia 10
Chaos Dwarfs 10
Daemons of Chaos 10
Dark Elves 10
Dwarfs 10
High Elves 10
Lizardmen 10
Ogre Kingdoms 10
Orcs and Goblins 10
Skaven 10
The Empire 10
Tomb Kings 10
Vampire Counts 10
Warrios of Chaos 10
Wood Elves 10

The way it works is that you copy and paste the list above, then add 1 and plus 1 to two armies of your choice, indicating which ones you have chosen.
Only one post per day, and when an army reaches 0 it drops outs and is placed.
We keep going till there is only one.
One line of comment explaining your choice is acceptable.

misomiso
02-10-2013, 20:00
As an example I’ll go first:-

Beastmen 10
Bretonnia 10
Chaos Dwarfs 10
Daemons of Chaos 10
Dark Elves 10
Dwarfs 10
High Elves 10
Lizardmen 10
Ogre Kingdoms 10
Orcs and Goblins 10
Skaven 10
The Empire 10
Tomb Kings 10
Vampire Counts 10
Warrios of Chaos 11 (+1)
Wood Elves 9 (-1)

Wood Elves too weak, WoC dominate.

babyberg31
02-10-2013, 20:05
Beastmen 10
Bretonnia 9 (-1)
Chaos Dwarfs 10
Daemons of Chaos 10
Dark Elves 10
Dwarfs 10
High Elves 10
Lizardmen 10
Ogre Kingdoms 10
Orcs and Goblins 10
Skaven 11 (+1)
The Empire 10
Tomb Kings 10
Vampire Counts 10
Warrios of Chaos 11
Wood Elves 9

Skaven... well duh. Bretonnia for lack of diversity/tactics

sigmarus
02-10-2013, 20:52
Beastmen 10
Bretonnia 9
Chaos Dwarfs 10
Daemons of Chaos 10
Dark Elves 10
Dwarfs 10
High Elves 11 (+1)
Lizardmen 10
Ogre Kingdoms 10
Orcs and Goblins 10
Skaven 11
The Empire 10
Tomb Kings 9 (-1)
Vampire Counts 10
Warrios of Chaos 11
Wood Elves 9

warplock
02-10-2013, 21:12
Beastmen 10
Bretonnia 9
Chaos Dwarfs 10
Daemons of Chaos 10
Dark Elves 10
Dwarfs 10
High Elves 11
Lizardmen 9 (-1)
Ogre Kingdoms 10
Orcs and Goblins 10
Skaven 11
The Empire 11 (+1)
Tomb Kings 9
Vampire Counts 10
Warrios of Chaos 11
Wood Elves 9

Empire have the tools to deal with anything and can easily make their mediocre troops into killing machines.
Lizardmen are still strong but they took a hit, are weirdly costed in places and suffer across the board from poor WS and cripplingly low I.

Ullis
02-10-2013, 23:08
Beastmen 10
Bretonnia 9
Chaos Dwarfs 10
Daemons of Chaos 10
Dark Elves 10
Dwarfs 10
High Elves 11
Lizardmen 9
Ogre Kingdoms 10
Orcs and Goblins 10
Skaven 11
The Empire 11
Tomb Kings 9
Vampire Counts 10
Warrios of Chaos 12 (+1)
Wood Elves 8 (-1)

WoC - Several powerful builds and the unkillable Daemon Prince build was a oversight by GW, in my opinion
Wood Elves - Suffered badly with the release of 8th edition. Steadfast and changes to march blocking really hurt.

Grammaticus Bane
02-10-2013, 23:12
Beastmen 10
Bretonnia 9
Chaos Dwarfs 10
Daemons of Chaos 10
Dark Elves 10
Dwarfs 10
High Elves 11
Lizardmen 9
Ogre Kingdoms 10
Orcs and Goblins 10
Skaven 11
The Empire 11
Tomb Kings 8 (-1)
Vampire Counts 10
Warrios of Chaos 12
Wood Elves 9 (+1)

People give WE a lot of flack, but after seeing them win a low-to-no comp tourney, I think they need to stick around a while longer on this list.

Spiney Norman
02-10-2013, 23:23
Interesting idea, I've seen this kind of hurt/heal routine before, but it generally just indicates army popularity rather than anything else. Here goes

Beastmen 10
Bretonnia 9
Chaos Dwarfs 10
Daemons of Chaos 9 (-1)
Dark Elves 10
Dwarfs 10
High Elves 11
Lizardmen 10 (+1)
Ogre Kingdoms 10
Orcs and Goblins 10
Skaven 11
The Empire 11
Tomb Kings 8
Vampire Counts 10
Warrios of Chaos 12
Wood Elves 9

Lizardmen are still the powerhouse army they've always been, while its true they don't own the magic phase as completely as they used to they can put out strong all-comers lists that can take on the nastiest units/army builds in the game thanks mainly to the stegs and salamanders.

I can't begin to describe how much the overdose of randomness has hurt chaos daemons, I feel this is overlooked somewhat because of how overpowered they were last edition, but they've become even more inconsistent than orcs and goblins without the points breaks that greenskins enjoy.

Mike3791
02-10-2013, 23:33
Allow allies, problem solved.

Trains_Get_Robbed
03-10-2013, 06:19
Beastmen 10
Bretonnia 9
Chaos Dwarfs 10
Daemons of Chaos 9
Dark Elves 10
Dwarfs 10
High Elves 10 (-1)
Lizardmen 10
Ogre Kingdoms 11 (+1)
Orcs and Goblins 10
Skaven 11
The Empire 11
Tomb Kings 8
Vampire Counts 10
Warrios of Chaos 12
Wood Elves 9

High Elf problems have only been exacerbated with the new book. While taking legitimate competitive unit choices, army strategy and items away, and instead replaced the gaping wholes with: a single powerful item that only works against a handful of armies in particular and a antibiotic for our cough in the form of Frosthearts. I played H.E for the magic dominance, and the high cost vs. eliteness feel of the army. The resulting variance in the last book allowed one to at least curtail to certain builds, I didn't sign up for: Warhammer Fantasy Army: Articuno and Friends -shoehorning as many as one can in a list, not very fun.

While I feel Ogres have a express number of good units, with a similar amount of great items (when compared to 8th ed. books). Combining with the ability to toolbox as well as being a more forgiving army, it was able to shift the meta game as one can literally "auto-pilot" some builds and still pull out wins.

Thruster
03-10-2013, 07:12
Beastmen 10
Bretonnia 9
Chaos Dwarfs 9 (-1)
Daemons of Chaos 9
Dark Elves 10
Dwarfs 10
High Elves 10
Lizardmen 10
Ogre Kingdoms 11
Orcs and Goblins 10
Skaven 12 (+1)
The Empire 11
Tomb Kings 8
Vampire Counts 10
Warrios of Chaos 12
Wood Elves 9


Skaven is still solid in all phases despite the new releases.

Chaos Dwarfs <<< Never seen anyone play this army for more than 10 years.

Rakariel
03-10-2013, 07:20
Beastmen 10
Bretonnia 9
Chaos Dwarfs 9
Daemons of Chaos 9
Dark Elves 10
Dwarfs 10
High Elves 10
Lizardmen 10
Ogre Kingdoms 11
Orcs and Goblins 10
Skaven 12
The Empire 11
Tomb Kings 7 (-1)
Vampire Counts 10
Warrios of Chaos 13 (+1)
Wood Elves 9

Yamabushi
03-10-2013, 07:41
Beastmen 9 (-1)
Bretonnia 9
Chaos Dwarfs 9
Daemons of Chaos 9
Dark Elves 10
Dwarfs 10
High Elves 10
Lizardmen 10
Ogre Kingdoms 11
Orcs and Goblins 10
Skaven 12
The Empire 11
Tomb Kings 7
Vampire Counts 10
Warrios of Chaos 14 (+1)
Wood Elves 9

Mercutius
03-10-2013, 07:59
Beastmen 9
Bretonnia 9
Chaos Dwarfs 9
Daemons of Chaos 9
Dark Elves 10
Dwarfs 10
High Elves 10
Lizardmen 10
Ogre Kingdoms 11
Orcs and Goblins 10
Skaven 12
The Empire 11
Tomb Kings 6 (-1)
Vampire Counts 11 (+1)
Warrios of Chaos 14
Wood Elves 9

Shrapnels
03-10-2013, 08:09
Beastmen 9
Bretonnia 8 (-1)
Chaos Dwarfs 9
Daemons of Chaos 9
Dark Elves 11 (+1)
Dwarfs 10
High Elves 10
Lizardmen 10
Ogre Kingdoms 11
Orcs and Goblins 10
Skaven 12
The Empire 11
Tomb Kings 7
Vampire Counts 10
Warrios of Chaos 14
Wood Elves 9

I play both of the armies myself, and currently I can see the pros and cons for both.
At the time being (I know the release og DE are on the doorstep) Dark Elves have really good potential in their dreadlord/master pegasus build and their vast variety of decent/good items.

For bretonnia, they lack variety in their playstyle, combined cannons being really effective (I seem to fail all my blessing ward saves) and when a cannon plows down 2-3 grailknights in first turn you feel kind of saddened :/

Ero-Senin
03-10-2013, 08:59
Beastmen 9
Bretonnia 8
Chaos Dwarfs 9
Daemons of Chaos 9
Dark Elves 11
Dwarfs 10
High Elves 10
Lizardmen 11 (+1)
Ogre Kingdoms 11
Orcs and Goblins 10
Skaven 12
The Empire 11
Tomb Kings 7
Vampire Counts 10
Warrios of Chaos 14
Wood Elves 8 (-1)

Wesser
03-10-2013, 09:05
Beastmen 9
Bretonnia 7 (-1)
Chaos Dwarfs 9
Daemons of Chaos 9
Dark Elves 11 (+1)
Dwarfs 10
High Elves 10 (+1)
Lizardmen 11
Ogre Kingdoms 11
Orcs and Goblins 10
Skaven 12
The Empire 11
Tomb Kings 7
Vampire Counts 10
Warrios of Chaos 14
Wood Elves 8

Based on my own meta. Always going 2nd means that Brets are easy to lock down and a canny player can dictate the game easily since brets have no aces to pull out of the sleeve. It takes an exceptionally gimmicky list to win with brets.

High Elves got no actual weaknesses except for the lack of cannons. The reason they get my vote is that in my meta there's not many playing the high toughness armies (dwarfs, beastmen, WoC) so even the slight issue that spearmen and archers have with such targets doesn't exist for me, thus making HE vastly OP here

Oogie boogie boss
03-10-2013, 09:17
Beastmen 9
Bretonnia 7
Chaos Dwarfs 9
Daemons of Chaos 9
Dark Elves 11
Dwarfs 10
High Elves 10
Lizardmen 11
Ogre Kingdoms 11
Orcs and Goblins 10
Skaven 12
The Empire 11
Tomb Kings 7
Vampire Counts 10
Warrios of Chaos 15 (+1)
Wood Elves 7 (-1)

Gotta go with WoC as the most powerful, though I think it's close between them, Skaven and HE. Gone for WE as weakest simply because in my view they have the most out of date book and are least suited to the 8th style. They can still be competitive, but you have to work hard and tailor your list to make it so.

Piercefierce
03-10-2013, 09:17
Beastmen 9
Bretonnia 7
Chaos Dwarfs 9
Daemons of Chaos 9
Dark Elves 11
Dwarfs 10
High Elves 10
Lizardmen 11
Ogre Kingdoms 11
Orcs and Goblins 10
Skaven 12
The Empire 11
Tomb Kings 7
Vampire Counts 10
Warrios of Chaos 15 +1
Wood Elves 7 -1

ws5 and nurgle is just so damn good. Plus the nurgle dp, obviously.

Wood elves dont work well in 8th. They can pull wins but usually only with an annoying/boring approach.

luntan
03-10-2013, 09:40
Beastmen 9
Bretonnia 7
Chaos Dwarfs 10 (+1)
Daemons of Chaos 9
Dark Elves 12
Dwarfs 10
High Elves 11
Lizardmen 11
Ogre Kingdoms 11
Orcs and Goblins 10
Skaven 12
The Empire 11
Tomb Kings 6
Vampire Counts 11
Warrios of Chaos 17 (+1)
Wood Elves 5 (-1)

Have updated the poll because several posts came the same time and then became missing.
WoC is the best with a boring DP build.
CD is one of the better armies and not so many plays them.
WE is outdated with expensive units.

BlackPawl
03-10-2013, 10:20
Beastmen 9
Bretonnia 7
Chaos Dwarfs 10
Daemons of Chaos 9
Dark Elves 12
Dwarfs 10
High Elves 11
Lizardmen 11
Ogre Kingdoms 11
Orcs and Goblins 10
Skaven 12
The Empire 11
Tomb Kings 6
Vampire Counts 11
Warrios of Chaos 18 (+1)
Wood Elves 4 (-1)

Mithras69
03-10-2013, 10:41
Beastmen 9
Bretonnia 7
Chaos Dwarfs 10
Daemons of Chaos 9
Dark Elves 12
Dwarfs 10
High Elves 11
Lizardmen 11
Ogre Kingdoms 11
Orcs and Goblins 10
Skaven 12
The Empire 11
Tomb Kings 5 (-1)
Vampire Counts 11
Warriors of Chaos 19 (+1)
Wood Elves 4

daynewma
03-10-2013, 11:37
Beastmen 9
Bretonnia 7
Chaos Dwarfs 10
Daemons of Chaos 9
Dark Elves 12
Dwarfs 10
High Elves 11
Lizardmen 10 (-1)
Ogre Kingdoms 11
Orcs and Goblins 10
Skaven 13 (+1)
The Empire 11
Tomb Kings 5
Vampire Counts 11
Warriors of Chaos 19
Wood Elves 4

Gustav Kohn
03-10-2013, 11:55
Beastmen 8 (-1)
Bretonnia 7
Chaos Dwarfs 10
Daemons of Chaos 9
Dark Elves 12
Dwarfs 10
High Elves 11
Lizardmen 11
Ogre Kingdoms 12 (+1)
Orcs and Goblins 10
Skaven 12
The Empire 11
Tomb Kings 5
Vampire Counts 11
Warriors of Chaos 19
Wood Elves 4

snyggejygge
03-10-2013, 12:03
Beastmen 7 (-1)
Bretonnia 7
Chaos Dwarfs 10
Daemons of Chaos 9
Dark Elves 12
Dwarfs 10
High Elves 11
Lizardmen 11
Ogre Kingdoms 12
Orcs and Goblins 10
Skaven 13 (+1)
The Empire 11
Tomb Kings 5
Vampire Counts 11
Warriors of Chaos 19
Wood Elves 4

Skaven is still the powerhouse army, Ogres, HE & WoC are all close behind, but skaven is balanced for a whole other meta & will beat all of them any day (haven´t seen new DE in action yet).
Beastmen suffered a lot from not getting updated to 8:th, overpriced monsters & Monstrous infantry leaves them with basically infantry & razorgors in their slots & nothing else...

Fear Ghoul
03-10-2013, 13:19
I think people need to be slightly more realistic about the power level of Warriors of Chaos.

Beastmen 7
Bretonnia 7
Chaos Dwarfs 10
Daemons of Chaos 10 (+1)
Dark Elves 12
Dwarfs 10
High Elves 11
Lizardmen 11
Ogre Kingdoms 12
Orcs and Goblins 10
Skaven 13
The Empire 11
Tomb Kings 5
Vampire Counts 11
Warriors of Chaos 18 (-1)
Wood Elves 4

Grammaticus Bane
03-10-2013, 13:47
Beastmen 7
Bretonnia 7
Chaos Dwarfs 10
Daemons of Chaos 10
Dark Elves 12
Dwarfs 10
High Elves 11
Lizardmen 11
Ogre Kingdoms 12
Orcs and Goblins 10
Skaven 13
The Empire 11
Tomb Kings 4 (-1)
Vampire Counts 11
Warriors of Chaos 18
Wood Elves 5 (+1)

If we are talking bottom armies, I sadly have to say that Tomb Kings are the ones that sadly ended up with the shortest straw.

Vipoid
03-10-2013, 14:19
Beastmen 7
Bretonnia 7
Chaos Dwarfs 10
Daemons of Chaos 10
Dark Elves 12
Dwarfs 9 (-1)
High Elves 12 (+1)
Lizardmen 11
Ogre Kingdoms 12
Orcs and Goblins 10
Skaven 13
The Empire 11
Tomb Kings 4
Vampire Counts 11
Warriors of Chaos 18
Wood Elves 5

Based purely on my own experiences - Dwarfs just didn't seem to do much in our group, whilst High Elves seem incredibly strong.

SteveW
03-10-2013, 14:37
Beastmen 7
Bretonnia 7
Chaos Dwarfs 10
Daemons of Chaos 10
Dark Elves 13 (+1)
Dwarfs 8(-1)
High Elves 12
Lizardmen 11
Ogre Kingdoms 12
Orcs and Goblins 10
Skaven 13
The Empire 11
Tomb Kings 4
Vampire Counts 11
Warriors of Chaos 18
Wood Elves 5

My three favorite armies are a 7, 5, and 4 :(

Ero-Senin
03-10-2013, 14:42
Beastmen 7
Bretonnia 7
Chaos Dwarfs 10
Daemons of Chaos 10
Dark Elves 12
Dwarfs 10
High Elves 11
Lizardmen 11
Ogre Kingdoms 12
Orcs and Goblins 10
Skaven 13
The Empire 11
Tomb Kings 4 (-1)
Vampire Counts 11
Warriors of Chaos 18
Wood Elves 5 (+1)

If we are talking bottom armies, I sadly have to say that Tomb Kings are the ones that sadly ended up with the shortest straw.

How can you possibly say Wood Elves are the strongest army? Looks like you are just putting + for Wood elves so that Tomb Kings will be considered worse.

Dreyer
03-10-2013, 15:30
Beastmen 7
Bretonnia 7
Chaos Dwarfs 10
Daemons of Chaos 10
Dark Elves 13
Dwarfs 8
High Elves 12
Lizardmen 11
Ogre Kingdoms 12
Orcs and Goblins 10
Skaven 14 (+1)
The Empire 11
Tomb Kings 4
Vampire Counts 11
Warriors of Chaos 18
Wood Elves 4 (-1)

misomiso
03-10-2013, 15:40
Beastmen 7
Bretonnia 7
Chaos Dwarfs 10
Daemons of Chaos 10
Dark Elves 13
Dwarfs 8
High Elves 12
Lizardmen 11
Ogre Kingdoms 13 (+1)
Orcs and Goblins 10
Skaven 14
The Empire 11
Tomb Kings 4
Vampire Counts 11
Warriors of Chaos 18
Wood Elves 3 (-1)

Between TK and WE, Wood elves are the weaker I think. Ogres are top tier IMO.

Oogie boogie boss
03-10-2013, 15:50
Love the fact that OnG have neither gained nor lost a point yet. Rocking the middle tier!

DaemonReign
03-10-2013, 15:55
Beastmen 7
Bretonnia 7
Chaos Dwarfs 10
Daemons of Chaos 10
Dark Elves 13
Dwarfs 8
High Elves 12
Lizardmen 11
Ogre Kingdoms 13
Orcs and Goblins 11 (+1)
Skaven 14
The Empire 11
Tomb Kings 4
Vampire Counts 11
Warriors of Chaos 17 (-1)
Wood Elves 3

Reason: OnG are better than a mere '10', and while very strong there's just no way WoC are that far ahead of the rest.

EDIT: Sorry Oogie, we crossed posts.. *lol*

Oogie boogie boss
03-10-2013, 16:03
Damn! Ruined our perfect mediocrity!

dutchwarlord
03-10-2013, 16:05
Beastmen 6 (-1)
Bretonnia 7
Chaos Dwarfs 10
Daemons of Chaos 10
Dark Elves 13
Dwarfs 8
High Elves 12
Lizardmen 11
Ogre Kingdoms 13
Orcs and Goblins 11 (+1)
Skaven 14
The Empire 11
Tomb Kings 4
Vampire Counts 11
Warriors of Chaos 17
Wood Elves 4 (+1)

Wood Elves can be very deadly when used as a fast msu army. Monsters in the beastmen army are just priced way too high, ungors with spears cost more than without and they have no dragon ogres, marks. I play beastmen, and don't find the armybook really bad, but I won't make a 4000 pts army like I did with Skaven and Wood Elves. They should have more unit options and lower prices monsters.

Captain Collius
03-10-2013, 16:16
Beastmen 6
Bretonnia 7
Chaos Dwarfs 10
Daemons of Chaos 10
Dark Elves 13
Dwarfs 8
High Elves 12
Lizardmen 11
Ogre Kingdoms 14(+1) Hard to beat without taking uber-spells
Orcs and Goblins 11
Skaven 15 (+1) Once i figured out my army i stopped using them it became a game of can i not roll a misfire.
The Empire 11
Tomb Kings 4
Vampire Counts 11
Warriors of Chaos 17
Wood Elves 3 (-1) No ability to fight they essentially rely on your being 2-3x the general your opponent is and terrain placement.

Gradek
03-10-2013, 17:32
Beastmen 6
Bretonnia 7
Chaos Dwarfs 10
Daemons of Chaos 10
Dark Elves 13
Dwarfs 8
High Elves 13 (+1)
Lizardmen 11
Ogre Kingdoms 14
Orcs and Goblins 11
Skaven 15
The Empire 11
Tomb Kings 4
Vampire Counts 11
Warriors of Chaos 16 (-1)
Wood Elves 3

Again Warriors are simply not that much better (if at all) than other top armies. I gave the + to HE because the white lion botwd death star with Arielle is possibly the least fun to play against army in the game.

the beardless dwarf
03-10-2013, 18:05
Again Warriors are simply not that much better (if at all) than other top armies. I gave the + to HE because the white lion botwd death star with Arielle is possibly the least fun to play against army in the game.

The idea is that we end with one army that is the best!!!! ;)

Beastmen 6
Bretonnia 7
Chaos Dwarfs 10
Daemons of Chaos 10
Dark Elves 14 (+1)
Dwarfs 8
High Elves 13
Lizardmen 11
Ogre Kingdoms 14
Orcs and Goblins 11
Skaven 15
The Empire 11
Tomb Kings 4
Vampire Counts 11
Warriors of Chaos 16
Wood Elves 2 (-1)

I gave a point to dark elves because the new book is looking promising. Wood elves are realy bad.

HalfBlood
03-10-2013, 18:30
Beastmen 6
Bretonnia 7
Chaos Dwarfs 11 (+1)
Daemons of Chaos 9 (-1)
Dark Elves 14
Dwarfs 8
High Elves 13
Lizardmen 11
Ogre Kingdoms 15 (+1)
Orcs and Goblins 11
Skaven 16 (+1)
The Empire 11
Tomb Kings 4
Vampire Counts 11
Warriors of Chaos 16
Wood Elves 2

Randomness for Daemons with unecessary large point increments hit them hard.
Chaos Dwarves have some of the strongest spells(Ash Storm)in the game. Access to the Kdaii, and multiple magma cannons
Skaven are imo the best. WLC + 2 Grey Seers just smacks peoples faces.

Gradek
03-10-2013, 18:47
Beastmen 6
Bretonnia 7
Chaos Dwarfs 11 (+1)
Daemons of Chaos 9 (-1)
Dark Elves 14
Dwarfs 8
High Elves 13
Lizardmen 11
Ogre Kingdoms 15 (+1)
Orcs and Goblins 11
Skaven 16 (+1)
The Empire 11
Tomb Kings 4
Vampire Counts 11
Warriors of Chaos 16
Wood Elves 2

Randomness for Daemons with unecessary large point increments hit them hard.
Chaos Dwarves have some of the strongest spells(Ash Storm)in the game. Access to the Kdaii, and multiple magma cannons
Skaven are imo the best. WLC + 2 Grey Seers just smacks peoples faces.

Follow directions. You get to add ONE plus and ONE minus.

Hragnar Goreskull
03-10-2013, 19:12
Interesting idea, I've seen this kind of hurt/heal routine before, but it generally just indicates army popularity rather than anything else. Here goes

Beastmen 10
Bretonnia 9
Chaos Dwarfs 10
Daemons of Chaos 9 (-1)
Dark Elves 10
Dwarfs 10
High Elves 11
Lizardmen 10 (+1)
Ogre Kingdoms 10
Orcs and Goblins 10
Skaven 11
The Empire 11
Tomb Kings 8
Vampire Counts 10
Warrios of Chaos 12
Wood Elves 9

Lizardmen are still the powerhouse army they've always been, while its true they don't own the magic phase as completely as they used to they can put out strong all-comers lists that can take on the nastiest units/army builds in the game thanks mainly to the stegs and salamanders.

I can't begin to describe how much the overdose of randomness has hurt chaos daemons, I feel this is overlooked somewhat because of how overpowered they were last edition, but they've become even more inconsistent than orcs and goblins without the points breaks that greenskins enjoy.

Beastmen 6
Bretonnia 7
Chaos Dwarfs 11
Daemons of Chaos 8 (-1)
Dark Elves 14
Dwarfs 8
High Elves 13
Lizardmen 11
Ogre Kingdoms 15
Orcs and Goblins 11
Skaven 16
The Empire 11
Tomb Kings 4
Vampire Counts 11
Warriors of Chaos 17 (+1)
Wood Elves 2

I have to agree with the above comment on the state of how DoC play now, as this is my main army, the over-reaction to the last edition and the obvious changes to Khorne/Tzeentch seems just a selling tactic to sell more mini's in the other two under used Chaos gods. WoC and Doc are both Chaos and I understand randomness of that, but DoC took it too far and greatly decreases the enjoyment of playing and decreasing power level also.

askaval30
03-10-2013, 19:21
Beastmen 5 (-1)
Bretonnia 7
Chaos Dwarfs 11
Daemons of Chaos 8
Dark Elves 14
Dwarfs 8
High Elves 13
Lizardmen 11
Ogre Kingdoms 16 (+1)
Orcs and Goblins 11
Skaven 16
The Empire 11
Tomb Kings 4
Vampire Counts 11
Warriors of Chaos 17
Wood Elves 2

Ogres are scary... solid and deadly unit combos and not easy to take down. Beastmen are an anemic army whose unique rules struggle to be effective in most of the games I have seen them in.

AverageBoss
03-10-2013, 19:40
Beastmen 6
Bretonnia 7
Chaos Dwarfs 10
Daemons of Chaos 9
Dark Elves 14
Dwarfs 8
High Elves 13
Lizardmen 11
Ogre Kingdoms 14
Orcs and Goblins 10
Skaven 14
The Empire 11
Tomb Kings 4
Vampire Counts 11
Warriors of Chaos 17
Wood Elves 2

This is the chart ignoring the 3 people that did not follow the rules. Correct me if I messed up.

tw1386
03-10-2013, 20:10
Beastmen 6
Bretonnia 7
Chaos Dwarfs 10
Daemons of Chaos 9
Dark Elves 14
Dwarfs 7
High Elves 13
Lizardmen 11
Ogre Kingdoms 14
Orcs and Goblins 11
Skaven 14
The Empire 11
Tomb Kings 4
Vampire Counts 11
Warriors of Chaos 17
Wood Elves 2

Myster2
03-10-2013, 22:31
Beastmen 6
Bretonnia 7
Chaos Dwarfs 10
Daemons of Chaos 9
Dark Elves 14
Dwarfs 7 (-1)
High Elves 13
Lizardmen 11
Ogre Kingdoms 14
Orcs and Goblins 11 (+1)
Skaven 14
The Empire 11
Tomb Kings 4
Vampire Counts 11
Warriors of Chaos 17
Wood Elves 2

I fixed the above posters list. Here is mine

Beastmen 6
Bretonnia 7
Chaos Dwarfs 10
Daemons of Chaos 9
Dark Elves 14
Dwarfs 7
High Elves 13
Lizardmen 10(-1)
Ogre Kingdoms 15 (+1)
Orcs and Goblins 11
Skaven 14
The Empire 11
Tomb Kings 4
Vampire Counts 11
Warriors of Chaos 17
Wood Elves 2

I the ogre kingdoms have to many "I wins" (Long charge, cannon chariot, good leadbelcher roll, ultra strong scouts). I think lizardmen aren't terrible but they should stay right in the middle.

Shimmergloom
03-10-2013, 22:42
Beastmen 6
Bretonnia 7
Chaos Dwarfs 10
Daemons of Chaos 9
Dark Elves 14
Dwarfs 7
High Elves 13
Lizardmen 10(-1)
Ogre Kingdoms 15 (+1)
Orcs and Goblins 11
Skaven 14
The Empire 11
Tomb Kings 4 (-1)
Vampire Counts 11
Warriors of Chaos 17 (+1)
Wood Elves 2

The Warrior builds are that bad and Tomb Kings are that far behind.

guardian445
03-10-2013, 22:58
Beastmen 6
Bretonnia 7
Chaos Dwarfs 10
Daemons of Chaos 9
Dark Elves 14
Dwarfs 7
High Elves 13
Lizardmen 10
Ogre Kingdoms 15
Orcs and Goblins 11
Skaven 14
The Empire 11
Tomb Kings 4
Vampire Counts 11
Warriors of Chaos 18 (+1)
Wood Elves 1 (-1)

Have personally seen WE's get smashed by almost every army out there this edition (not including DE, no1 at my LGS plays them [yet]), due to high pts costs for sub-standard units, and no real access to a decent heavy-hitting unit that doesn't get mowed down by a unit with Steadfast. In addition, even though they are supposed to be "the best Shooting=phase army in-game," they have nothing to back that up. They have no artillery and no high-strength ranged options whatsoever (magic phase not included, and don't even get me started there....).
WoC get the +1, due to access to some extremely scary units, high WS/I/A statistics, a great magic phase,and the survivability to shrug off most other armies Troops choices like a water off a duck. And thats non-Cav untis. Throw in a huge degree of mobility/firepower in the form of Discs, Wizards, and Flying DP's, WoC are arguably one of the strongest, if not THE strongest army in 8th edition currently.

Note - my statements against WE's may be seen as "hate" towards the army. Just stating my personal observations here is all. I have a friend who plays them, have played them myself, and against all other armies this edition, they get fly-swatted. Some armies take longer to lose against, but the end result is usually the same.

ewar
03-10-2013, 23:33
Beastmen 6
Bretonnia 7
Chaos Dwarfs 11 (+1)
Daemons of Chaos 9
Dark Elves 15 (+1)
Dwarfs 7
High Elves 13
Lizardmen 10
Ogre Kingdoms 15
Orcs and Goblins 11
Skaven 14
The Empire 11
Tomb Kings 4
Vampire Counts 11
Warriors of Chaos 18
Wood Elves 0 (-1)

I put the woodies out of their misery, though I don't think they're that much weaker, if at all, than BM or TKs.

CDs for me are crazy good - the K'daii makes the WOC DP look like a newborn baby - maybe it's lack of familiarity that has stopped people putting them higher?

Dark Elves, just because they're insanely flexible and can almost everything incredibly well.

Kayosiv
03-10-2013, 23:50
I have long heard of the terror of the Khadi Destroyer, but have never even seen anybody playing chaos dwarfs, let alone have to play against them.

ewar
03-10-2013, 23:57
Just be happy that's the case :)

I got taken apart in a comped tourney by one K'daii and an Iron Daemon. Literally nothing else in his army took part and I was completely tabled. Just so horrible - their magic is incredible too. Although on the last turn I managed to kill one of the magma cannons with a Tomb Scorpion, so it wasn't quite a 2600-nil, it was more like 2600-200. Best 200vps I ever scored! Though I think I suffered from PTSD for a while after that game...

Ursus
04-10-2013, 00:52
Beastmen 5 (-1)
Bretonnia 7
Chaos Dwarfs 11
Daemons of Chaos 9
Dark Elves 15
Dwarfs 7
High Elves 14 (+1)
Lizardmen 10
Ogre Kingdoms 15
Orcs and Goblins 11
Skaven 14
The Empire 11
Tomb Kings 4
Vampire Counts 11
Warriors of Chaos 18
Wood Elves 0

Having played since 3rd, it's amusing that the 3 fantasy armies I play are Beastmen, Tomb Kings and Wood Elves. Of the three I find the change from 6th ed Beasts to 7th ed Beasts and then 8th edition the weakest of the three. This might be due to my collection being better suited to the older army book, but damned if I'm spending any more money on them when I hate playing them.

High Elves becasue we have a BotWD death star player in our group. And none of my armies enjoy dealing with it.

misomiso
04-10-2013, 01:10
No new votes for this post, just detaching WE's from the pack.

Beastmen 5
Bretonnia 7
Chaos Dwarfs 11
Daemon of Chaos 9
Dark Elves 15
Dwarfs 7
High Elves 14
Lizardmen 10
Ogre Kingdoms 15
Orcs and Goblins 11
Skaven 14
The Empire 11
Tomb Kings 4
Vampire Counts 11
Warriors of Chaos 18

16th Wood Elves

Timofeo
04-10-2013, 01:20
Beastmen 5
Bretonnia 7
Chaos Dwarfs 11
Daemon of Chaos 9
Dark Elves 15
Dwarfs 7
High Elves 14
Lizardmen 10
Ogre Kingdoms 16+
Orcs and Goblins 11
Skaven 14
The Empire 10-
Tomb Kings 4
Vampire Counts 11
Warriors of Chaos 18

Foegnasher
04-10-2013, 02:08
Beastmen 4 (-)
Bretonnia 7
Chaos Dwarfs 11
Daemon of Chaos 10 (+)
Dark Elves 15
Dwarfs 7
High Elves 14
Lizardmen 10
Ogre Kingdoms 16+
Orcs and Goblins 11
Skaven 14
The Empire 10-
Tomb Kings 4
Vampire Counts 11
Warriors of Chaos 18

AverageBoss
04-10-2013, 02:42
The chart should currently look like this:

Beastmen 5
Bretonnia 7
Chaos Dwarfs 11
Daemon of Chaos 9
Dark Elves 14
Dwarfs 6
High Elves 14
Lizardmen 11
Ogre Kingdoms 15
Orcs and Goblins 11
Skaven 14
The Empire 10
Tomb Kings 5
Vampire Counts 11
Warriors of Chaos 17
Wood Elves: 1

Although I do think it is safe to say wood elves will be the first to go.

And now my vote:

Beastmen 5
Bretonnia 7
Chaos Dwarfs 11
Daemon of Chaos 9
Dark Elves 14
Dwarfs 6
High Elves 14
Lizardmen 11
Ogre Kingdoms 15
Orcs and Goblins 11
Skaven 15 (+1)
The Empire 10
Tomb Kings 4 (-1)
Vampire Counts 11
Warriors of Chaos 17
Wood Elves: 1

Skaven have the ability to absolutely spam high strength template weapons in a rank and file game. They get hordes of the cheapest troops in the game. Although fluff wise being the most cowardly army out there, rules wise they tend to be 100% LD 10 and stubborn. Oh, and they can shoot into hand to hand.

Tomb kings cant march ever! In a game where the movement phase is so increadibly important, they are outpaced by dwarves. Their units are overly fragile, lacking in omph, and over pointed.

Spiney Norman
04-10-2013, 08:57
Beastmen 5
Bretonnia 7
Chaos Dwarfs 11
Daemon of Chaos 8 (-1)
Dark Elves 14
Dwarfs 6
High Elves 14
Lizardmen 12 (+1)
Ogre Kingdoms 15
Orcs and Goblins 11
Skaven 15
The Empire 10
Tomb Kings 4
Vampire Counts 11
Warriors of Chaos 17
Wood Elves: 1

See my comments from yesterday, the meta has not changed in the last 24 hrs ;)
P.S. I love that so many folks are +1ing dark elves when the book isn't even out yet, much less anyone has actually played against it, go warseer!

SteveW
04-10-2013, 09:11
P.S. I love that so many folks are +1ing dark elves when the book isn't even out yet, much less anyone has actually played against it, go warseer!
Maybe, just maybe. We are counting the current book that is way overpowered and not the one that isn't quite out yet? I know that's what I did.

Captain Collius
04-10-2013, 12:57
Beastmen 5
Bretonnia 7
Chaos Dwarfs 11
Daemon of Chaos 8
Dark Elves 14
Dwarfs 6
High Elves 14
Lizardmen 12
Ogre Kingdoms 15
Orcs and Goblins 11
Skaven 16 +1 They are really good
The Empire 10
Tomb Kings 4
Vampire Counts 11
Warriors of Chaos 17
Wood Elves: 0 -1 (they really aren't that good)

babyberg31
04-10-2013, 13:48
Beastmen 5
Bretonnia 7
Chaos Dwarfs 11
Daemon of Chaos 8
Dark Elves 14
Dwarfs 5 -1 (for being soooo boring)
High Elves 14
Lizardmen 12
Ogre Kingdoms 15
Orcs and Goblins 11
Skaven 17 +1 (no justification needed)
The Empire 10
Tomb Kings 4
Vampire Counts 11
Warriors of Chaos 17
Wood Elves: 0

Gustav Kohn
04-10-2013, 14:12
Beastmen 4 (-1)
Bretonnia 7
Chaos Dwarfs 11
Daemon of Chaos 8
Dark Elves 14
Dwarfs 5
High Elves 14
Lizardmen 12
Ogre Kingdoms 16 (+1)
Orcs and Goblins 11
Skaven 17
The Empire 10
Tomb Kings 4
Vampire Counts 11
Warriors of Chaos 17
Wood Elves: 0

16th- Wood Elves

I have a friend who declares every 2 or 3 weeks that he has figured out the Beastmen list that is going to be awesome. I then defeat it with wood elves or lizards (no Slann) or whatever. Poor guy.

Lordcypress
04-10-2013, 14:19
I just crushed a local tournament last month with Warriors of Chaos. Closest game was my 2500 VP's to my opponents 350 VP's. Warriors rule all. Hence why I started my Spider God Army of Doom.

Beastmen 5
Bretonnia 7
Chaos Dwarfs 11 (-1 for not really having a real book in many players eyes)
Daemon of Chaos 8
Dark Elves 14
Dwarfs 5
High Elves 14
Lizardmen 12
Ogre Kingdoms 15
Orcs and Goblins 11
Skaven 17
The Empire 10
Tomb Kings 4
Vampire Counts 11
Warriors of Chaos 17 (+1 Warriors of Chaos)
Wood Elves: 0

Ullis
04-10-2013, 14:32
Beastmen 5
Bretonnia 6 (-1)
Chaos Dwarfs 11
Daemon of Chaos 9 (+1)
Dark Elves 14
Dwarfs 5
High Elves 14
Lizardmen 12
Ogre Kingdoms 15
Orcs and Goblins 11
Skaven 17
The Empire 10
Tomb Kings 4
Vampire Counts 11
Warriors of Chaos 17

Wood Elves - eliminated. 16th place

Daemons still have some very powerful elements to their army, despite the randomness.

Bretonnia are currently a one trick pony (no pun intended).

Timathius
04-10-2013, 15:25
Beastmen 4 (-1)
Bretonnia 6
Chaos Dwarfs 11
Daemon of Chaos 9
Dark Elves 14
Dwarfs 5
High Elves 14
Lizardmen 12
Ogre Kingdoms 16 (+1)
Orcs and Goblins 11
Skaven 17
The Empire 10
Tomb Kings 4
Vampire Counts 11
Warriors of Chaos 17

Ogres are nasty when played correctly.

Beastmen can be good but the learning curve is far too steep.

misomiso
04-10-2013, 15:39
IN future posts be sure to keep wood elves in at 16th, and as other armies drop out place them 15th...14th etc

Beastmen 4
Bretonnia 6
Chaos Dwarfs 11
Daemon of Chaos 9
Dark Elves 14
Dwarfs 5
High Elves 14
Lizardmen 12
Ogre Kingdoms 16
Orcs and Goblins 11
Skaven 18 (+1)
The Empire 10
Tomb Kings 3 (-1)
Vampire Counts 11
Warriors of Chaos 17

16th Wood Elves

Love Tomb Kings, but their very weak. The Rats are nasty.

lukas721
04-10-2013, 15:40
Beastmen 4
Bretonnia 6
Chaos Dwarfs 10 (-1)
Daemon of Chaos 9
Dark Elves 14
Dwarfs 5
High Elves 14
Lizardmen 12
Ogre Kingdoms 16
Orcs and Goblins 11
Skaven 18
The Empire 10
Tomb Kings 3
Vampire Counts 11
Warriors of Chaos 18 (+1)

Aethereas
04-10-2013, 15:45
Beastmen 3 (-1)
Bretonnia 6
Chaos Dwarfs 10
Daemon of Chaos 9
Dark Elves 14
Dwarfs 5
High Elves 14
Lizardmen 12
Ogre Kingdoms 16
Orcs and Goblins 11
Skaven 19 (+1)
The Empire 10
Tomb Kings 3
Vampire Counts 11
Warriors of Chaos 18

vorthrax
04-10-2013, 18:27
Beastmen 3
Bretonnia 5 (-1)
Chaos Dwarfs 10
Daemon of Chaos 9
Dark Elves 14
Dwarfs 5
High Elves 14
Lizardmen 12
Ogre Kingdoms 16
Orcs and Goblins 11
Skaven 20 (+1)
The Empire 10
Tomb Kings 3
Vampire Counts 11
Warriors of Chaos 18

Lord Inquisitor
04-10-2013, 18:41
Beastmen 3
Bretonnia 5
Chaos Dwarfs 10
Daemon of Chaos 10 (+1) ... daemons have been doing well in quite a few uncomped tournaments
Dark Elves 14
Dwarfs 5
High Elves 14
Lizardmen 12
Ogre Kingdoms 16
Orcs and Goblins 11
Skaven 20
The Empire 10
Tomb Kings 2 (-1) ... the book has some bite but it's so hamstrung by its own special rules
Vampire Counts 11
Warriors of Chaos 18

Mozzamanx
04-10-2013, 18:48
Beastmen 3
Bretonnia 5
Chaos Dwarfs 10
Daemon of Chaos 10
Dark Elves 14
Dwarfs 5
High Elves 14
Lizardmen 12
Ogre Kingdoms 16
Orcs and Goblins 11
Skaven 21 (+1) ... Ld10 Core for 2pts a model does not rock, particularly when you have exploding cannon lines and sickening magic/monsters to back it up
The Empire 10
Tomb Kings 1 (-1) ... A trainwreck of self-defeating special rules and complete reliance on mediocre magic.
Vampire Counts 11
Warriors of Chaos 18

DaemonReign
04-10-2013, 18:53
Beastmen 3
Bretonnia 5
Chaos Dwarfs 10
Daemon of Chaos 10
Dark Elves 14
Dwarfs 5
High Elves 14
Lizardmen 12
Ogre Kingdoms 16
Orcs and Goblins 11
Skaven 21
The Empire 11 (+1)
Tomb Kings 0 (-1)
Vampire Counts 11
Warriors of Chaos 18

SteveW
04-10-2013, 19:45
Beastmen 3
Bretonnia 4(-1)
Chaos Dwarfs 10
Daemon of Chaos 10
Dark Elves 15(+1)
Dwarfs 5
High Elves 14
Lizardmen 12
Ogre Kingdoms 16
Orcs and Goblins 11
Skaven 21
The Empire 11
Vampire Counts 11
Warriors of Chaos 18

Tomb Kings 15th
Wood Elves 16th

Grom Wronghand
04-10-2013, 20:06
Beastmen 2 (-1) As much as I love the Beasts, they just can't compete on the same level as other armies. I've yet to see a Beast army that was too concerning.
Bretonnia 4
Chaos Dwarfs 10
Daemon of Chaos 10
Dark Elves 15
Dwarfs 5
High Elves 14
Lizardmen 12
Ogre Kingdoms 16
Orcs and Goblins 11
Skaven 21
The Empire 11
Vampire Counts 11
Warriors of Chaos 19 (+1) These guys are nasty, for reasons that have been elaborated upon by everyone else plentifully.

Tomb Kings 15th
Wood Elves 16th

Gradek
04-10-2013, 20:33
Beastmen 1 (-1) the army of "monsters" has the weakest and most costly ones.
Bretonnia 4
Chaos Dwarfs 10
Daemon of Chaos 10
Dark Elves 15
Dwarfs 5
High Elves 15 (+1) The bannerstar is still the most powerful and least fun unit to play against in the game
Lizardmen 12
Ogre Kingdoms 16
Orcs and Goblins 11
Skaven 21
The Empire 11
Vampire Counts 11
Warriors of Chaos 19

Tomb Kings 15th
Wood Elves 16th

Bob Arctor
04-10-2013, 21:03
Beastmen 1
Bretonnia 4
Chaos Dwarfs 10
Daemon of Chaos 9 (-1)
Dark Elves 15
Dwarfs 5
High Elves 15
Lizardmen 12
Ogre Kingdoms 16
Orcs and Goblins 11
Skaven 21
The Empire 11
Vampire Counts 12 (+1)
Warriors of Chaos 19

Tomb Kings 15th
Wood Elves 16th

If a Daemon army does well I think its in spite of their rules, not because of them.
VC are a very solid army where nearly every unit has its uses and several viable builds. Good for relative newbies and veterans.

Dreyer
04-10-2013, 22:26
Beastmen 1
Bretonnia 4
Chaos Dwarfs 10
Daemon of Chaos 9
Dark Elves 15
Dwarfs 5
High Elves 15
Lizardmen 11 (-1)
Ogre Kingdoms 16
Orcs and Goblins 11
Skaven 21
The Empire 11
Vampire Counts 13 (+1)
Warriors of Chaos 19

Tomb Kings 15th
Wood Elves 16th

Rudra34
04-10-2013, 22:31
Beastmen 0 (-1) I hate to be the one to do it, as I love me some beasts. Sadly they have a book full of over-costed units and ineffective rares.
Bretonnia 4
Chaos Dwarfs 10
Daemon of Chaos 9
Dark Elves 15
Dwarfs 5
High Elves 15
Lizardmen 11
Ogre Kingdoms 16
Orcs and Goblins 11
Skaven 21
The Empire 11
Vampire Counts 13
Warriors of Chaos 20 (+1) I think some of the combos in the new WoC book are insane, hard to counter, and overall very effective.

Beastmen 14th
Tomb Kings 15th
Wood Elves 16th

Hragnar Goreskull
05-10-2013, 00:15
Bretonnia 4
Chaos Dwarfs 10
Daemon of Chaos 8 (-1) Dice are random, rules shouldn't be
Dark Elves 15
Dwarfs 5
High Elves 16 (+1) Solid army with many options, solid magic.
Lizardmen 11
Ogre Kingdoms 16
Orcs and Goblins 11
Skaven 21
The Empire 11
Vampire Counts 13
Warriors of Chaos 20

Beastmen 14th
Tomb Kings 15th
Wood Elves 16th

HalfBlood
05-10-2013, 02:05
Bretonnia 4
Chaos Dwarfs 10
Daemon of Chaos 7 (-1)- Overcosted Lords, horrible internal balance, excesive randomness.
Dark Elves 16 (+1)- After reading what Ward did with their magic. I can see them rising to the top fast.
Dwarfs 5
High Elves 16
Lizardmen 11
Ogre Kingdoms 16
Orcs and Goblins 11
Skaven 21
The Empire 11
Vampire Counts 13
Warriors of Chaos 20

Beastmen 14th
Tomb Kings 15th
Wood Elves 16th

sonata1287
05-10-2013, 03:28
Bretonnia 3 (-1) Overpriced and in desperate need of an update. An example that comes to mind is how High Elves now have quicker horses that aren't impeded by barding. Kinda a slap in the face to a knight centered army.
Chaos Dwarfs 10
Daemon of Chaos 7
Dark Elves 16
Dwarfs 5
High Elves 16
Lizardmen 11
Ogre Kingdoms 16
Orcs and Goblins 11
Skaven 21
The Empire 11
Vampire Counts 14 (+1) I actually love and would vote for WoC, but it looks like they are doing quite well at the moment. VC, on the other hand, are a bit underrated in this list ATM. I think they are fantastic, rewarding army to play.
Warriors of Chaos 20

Beastmen 14th
Tomb Kings 15th
Wood Elves 16th

snyggejygge
05-10-2013, 07:32
Bretonnia 3
Chaos Dwarfs 10
Daemon of Chaos 7
Dark Elves 16
Dwarfs 4 (-)
High Elves 16
Lizardmen 11
Ogre Kingdoms 17 (+)
Orcs and Goblins 11
Skaven 21
The Empire 11
Vampire Counts 14
Warriors of Chaos 20

Beastmen 14th
Tomb Kings 15th
Wood Elves 16th

Ogres stomp most units in close-combat with their core-choices, even better than WoC, add to this their other silly stuff & they are one of the most powerful armies out there, out of the 8:th edition ones I would say THE most powerful.

Dwarves lack in just about everything except for ranged attacks, which they do very well, but usually not well enough to place in top, add to that how boring they are to play with & against means they need an update soon!

luntan
05-10-2013, 07:38
Bretonnia 2 (-1)
Chaos Dwarfs 11 (+1)
Daemon of Chaos 7
Dark Elves 16
Dwarfs 4
High Elves 16
Lizardmen 11
Ogre Kingdoms 17
Orcs and Goblins 11
Skaven 21
The Empire 11
Vampire Counts 14
Warriors of Chaos 20

Beastmen 14th
Tomb Kings 15th
Wood Elves 16th

Play Chaos Dwarfs myself and they can be nasty and beat anyone. Most people that put - on them havent seen them in action.
Bretonnia are to much onedimensional

EmperorNorton
05-10-2013, 11:34
Bretonnia 1 (-1)
Chaos Dwarfs 11
Daemon of Chaos 8 (+1)
Dark Elves 16
Dwarfs 4
High Elves 16
Lizardmen 11
Ogre Kingdoms 17
Orcs and Goblins 11
Skaven 21
The Empire 11
Vampire Counts 14
Warriors of Chaos 20

Beastmen 14th
Tomb Kings 15th
Wood Elves 16th

Bretonnia deserves to be the next army to be voted out and I don't understand why people underestimate Daemons as much as they appear to be doing.

AverageBoss
05-10-2013, 13:47
Bretonnia 0 (-1)
Chaos Dwarfs 11
Daemon of Chaos 8
Dark Elves 16
Dwarfs 4
High Elves 16
Lizardmen 11
Ogre Kingdoms 17
Orcs and Goblins 11
Skaven 21
The Empire 11
Vampire Counts 14
Warriors of Chaos 21 (+1)

Bretonia 13th
Beastmen 14th
Tomb Kings 15th
Wood Elves 16th

I have seen effective Bretonian armies, but overall the army suffers from mono-build syndrome. You know there will be trebuches. You know there will be knights. The army completely lacks options and most units are over pointed in today's Warhammer.

Warriors (aside from Skaven) are undoubtedly the strongest army left. Altthough my favorite army (I have over 100 of just the Warriors themselves), this is my least favorite 8th edition book. 3+ rerollable ward save. Mark of Nurgle is clearly the superior mark on most units, Mark of Khrone on pretty much the rest. No point in Chaos Knights when Skull Crushers exist (better than Mounrfangs). The hellcannon out performs the Ironblaster. A unit of Khornate halberds will wipe the floor with any equal pointed ogre unit before they even strike. Gorebeast chariot and Chimaera spam lists. Lore of Slannesh can shut down whole armies for a turn. I could keep going. As I someone else put it on another forum, the army has turned into Chaos Lord Boringaxes Chariot Stag Party and Petting Zoo.

DaemonReign
05-10-2013, 15:37
Chaos Dwarfs 12 (+1) They're powerfull. Just looking at the numbers.
Daemon of Chaos 7 (-1) Nurgle-centric build backed by Slaanesh Magic is very competative, book over-all sits just right as slightly better than Dwarves but not an inch 'higher' in ranking.
Dark Elves 16
Dwarfs 4
High Elves 16
Lizardmen 11
Ogre Kingdoms 17
Orcs and Goblins 11
Skaven 21
The Empire 11
Vampire Counts 14
Warriors of Chaos 21

Bretonia 13th
Beastmen 14th
Tomb Kings 15th
Wood Elves 16th

misomiso
05-10-2013, 16:35
Chaos Dwarfs 12
Daemon of Chaos 6 (-1)
Dark Elves 16
Dwarfs 4
High Elves 16
Lizardmen 11
Ogre Kingdoms 17
Orcs and Goblins 11
Skaven 21
The Empire 11
Vampire Counts 14
Warriors of Chaos 22 (+1)

Bretonia 13th
Beastmen 14th
Tomb Kings 15th
Wood Elves 16th

thesoundofmusica
05-10-2013, 16:54
Chaos Dwarfs 12
Daemon of Chaos 6
Dark Elves 16
Dwarfs 3 (-1)
High Elves 16
Lizardmen 11
Ogre Kingdoms 17
Orcs and Goblins 11
Skaven 21
The Empire 11
Vampire Counts 14
Warriors of Chaos 23 (+1)

Bretonia 13th
Beastmen 14th
Tomb Kings 15th
Wood Elves 16th

These things tend to pan out but really to think someone put WE (+1) and Lizardmen (-1) on the first page... Mindboggling.

daynewma
05-10-2013, 19:31
I've been disenfranchised!

179534

My natural rights have been violated! Help, help! I'm being repressed!

Dude totally skipped over my vote when casting his ballot back on page 2. There's some invidious intent here, no doubt (for you US law folk). You can see where the values should have been different, but were not changed. It's cause I voted for lizardmen, isn't it? Reptile discrimination. I put lizards at minus 1 because they really suffer under the new book. Not just in comparison to old one. They're not good.

Sorry for breaking up the flow.

The poll should be:

Chaos Dwarfs 12
Daemon of Chaos 6
Dark Elves 16
Dwarfs 3
High Elves 16
Lizardmen 10 (-1 for my vote)
Ogre Kingdoms 17
Orcs and Goblins 11
Skaven 22 (+1 for my vote)
The Empire 11
Vampire Counts 14
Warriors of Chaos 23

Bretonia 13th
Beastmen 14th
Tomb Kings 15th
Wood Elves 16th

Carry on.

Spiney Norman
05-10-2013, 20:50
To the above poster, averageboss did a full correction/calibration of the list on p.3 which would have caught the synchro error on your post from page 2 so I suspect your correction was unnecessary. T be on the safe side perhaps someone with more patience than me should tot them up and make sure everything is actually correct, there are still a few posts where folks are promoting/demoting two armies each instead of just one.

Chaos Dwarfs 12
Daemon of Chaos 5 (-1)
Dark Elves 16
Dwarfs 3
High Elves 16
Lizardmen 11 (+1)
Ogre Kingdoms 17
Orcs and Goblins 11
Skaven 22
The Empire 11
Vampire Counts 14
Warriors of Chaos 23

Bretonia 13th
Beastmen 14th
Tomb Kings 15th
Wood Elves 16th

See yesterday's comment for justification, except that today my ancient steg has a shiny new daemon prince head adorning his sharpened horns :D

Gradek
05-10-2013, 22:43
Chaos Dwarfs 12
Daemon of Chaos 5
Dark Elves 16
Dwarfs 2 (-1) not good and no fun to play against
High Elves 17 (+1) still no fun to play against
Lizardmen 11
Ogre Kingdoms 17
Orcs and Goblins 11
Skaven 22
The Empire 11
Vampire Counts 14
Warriors of Chaos 23

Bretonia 13th
Beastmen 14th
Tomb Kings 15th
Wood Elves 16th

ewar
05-10-2013, 23:44
Chaos Dwarfs 13 (+1 the K'daii... nothing more needs to be said, these guys are right at the top with the best of them)
Daemon of Chaos 5
Dark Elves 16
Dwarfs 2
High Elves 17
Lizardmen 11
Ogre Kingdoms 17
Orcs and Goblins 10 (-1 they're getting out of their depth in this competition)
Skaven 22
The Empire 11
Vampire Counts 14
Warriors of Chaos 23

Bretonia 13th
Beastmen 14th
Tomb Kings 15th
Wood Elves 16th

AverageBoss
06-10-2013, 00:49
I only removed the votes from those not following the rules (those doing more than 1 + and/or - vote). I did not check to make sure everyone's vote had carried precisely. I am pretty OCD, but not that OCD lol. It does appear his vote was indeed glossed over though, but you carried it into your vote so were good now.

Turgol
06-10-2013, 07:38
Daemon of Chaos 5
Dark Elves 16
Dwarfs 2
High Elves 17
Lizardmen 11
Ogre Kingdoms 18 (+1)
Orcs and Goblins 9 (-1)
Skaven 22
The Empire 11
Vampire Counts 14
Warriors of Chaos 23

Bretonia 13th
Beastmen 14th
Tomb Kings 15th
Wood Elves 16th

OnG: Not as good as they used to be. When an army which is supposed to rule in close combat will actually get reaped to pieces by all kind of Elves, Chaos, Ogres, Lizzies, etc., you know they are not at their best.
OK: They are just nasty and easy to play with.

shelfunit.
06-10-2013, 10:29
Daemon of Chaos 5
Dark Elves 16
Dwarfs 3 (+1)
High Elves 17
Lizardmen 11
Ogre Kingdoms 18
Orcs and Goblins 9
Skaven 22
The Empire 10 (-1)
Vampire Counts 14
Warriors of Chaos 23

Bretonia 13th
Beastmen 14th
Tomb Kings 15th
Wood Elves 16th

My Dwarfs still do pretty well against most armies, and consistantly smash Empire armies, who really didn't get better with the new book in any meaningful way.

luntan
06-10-2013, 11:35
Chaos Dwarfs 13
Daemon of Chaos 5
Dark Elves 16
Dwarfs 3
High Elves 17
Lizardmen 11
Ogre Kingdoms 18
Orcs and Goblins 8 (-)
Skaven 22
The Empire 10
Vampire Counts 14
Warriors of Chaos 24 (+)

Bretonia 13th
Beastmen 14th
Tomb Kings 15th
Wood Elves 16th

O&G isent so good.
WoC is on the top togheter with CD.

EmperorNorton
06-10-2013, 11:39
Chaos Dwarfs 13
Daemon of Chaos 6 (+1)
Dark Elves 16
Dwarfs 3
High Elves 17
Lizardmen 11
Ogre Kingdoms 18
Orcs and Goblins 7 (-1)
Skaven 22
The Empire 10
Vampire Counts 14
Warriors of Chaos 24

Bretonia 13th
Beastmen 14th
Tomb Kings 15th
Wood Elves 16th

I still maintain that Daemons have the most overpowered units in the game. That they also have very bad units does not influence the power balance much. It could just as well be said that WoC are a bad army, because a list consisting of nothing but Marauders and Spawn has dire prospects.

Fear Ghoul
06-10-2013, 11:52
Chaos Dwarfs 13
Daemon of Chaos 7 (+1)
Dark Elves 16
Dwarfs 3
High Elves 17
Lizardmen 11
Ogre Kingdoms 18
Orcs and Goblins 7
Skaven 22
The Empire 10
Vampire Counts 13 (-1)
Warriors of Chaos 24

Bretonia 13th
Beastmen 14th
Tomb Kings 15th
Wood Elves 16th

People are seriously underestimating Nurgle Daemons backe dup by Skullcannons if they think Daemons are that weak.

the beardless dwarf
06-10-2013, 13:12
Chaos Dwarfs 13
Daemon of Chaos 7
Dark Elves 16
Dwarfs 4 (+1)
High Elves 17
Lizardmen 11
Ogre Kingdoms 18
Orcs and Goblins 6 (-1)
Skaven 22
The Empire 10
Vampire Counts 13
Warriors of Chaos 24

My dwarfs can beat O&G any time. 3 hordes of 40 great weapon dwarfs, 2 cannons, organ gun, catapult , BSB and runelord can go toe to toe with everything realy.

AverageBoss
06-10-2013, 13:27
Chaos Dwarfs 13
Daemon of Chaos 7
Dark Elves 16
Dwarfs 4 (-1)
High Elves 17
Lizardmen 11
Ogre Kingdoms 18
Orcs and Goblins 6
Skaven 23 (+1)
The Empire 10
Vampire Counts 13
Warriors of Chaos 24

Bretonia 13th
Beastmen 14th
Tomb Kings 15th
Wood Elves 16th

Lots of I like this army and don't like this one votes going on.

All you really need to win a game with Skaven against any opponent is Warpfire spam, Lightnig Cannons/DoomWheels/HPAs (in any combination), a Grey Seer or two, and a bunch of slaves to hold you enemies army in hand to hand for the whole game, while you shoot into combat. Then just don't roll 10 misfires in a row.

Dwarves, like Brets suffer extreme monobuild syndrome. There will be guns/cannons/anvil and great weapons. If your prepared to fight one Dwarf army, you are prepared to fight them all.

the beardless dwarf
06-10-2013, 13:45
Lots of I like this army and don't like this one votes going on.

All you really need to win a game with Skaven against any opponent is Warpfire spam, Lightnig Cannons/DoomWheels/HPAs (in any combination), a Grey Seer or two, and a bunch of slaves to hold you enemies army in hand to hand for the whole game, while you shoot into combat. Then just don't roll 10 misfires in a row.

Dwarves, like Brets suffer extreme monobuild syndrome. There will be guns/cannons/anvil and great weapons. If your prepared to fight one Dwarf army, you are prepared to fight them all.

I was just saying dwarfs are better than O&G.

Warpfire spam, Lightnig Cannons/DoomWheels/HPAs can all be shut down with 2 cannons and a gurdge thrower with some luck. Organ gun kills any scouts. Rangers/miners can be unpredictable and runelord with Master rune of balance and 2 runes of spelbreaking can shut down most magic phases.

I think you have never seen a dwarf ambush army, because you definetly wont be prepared to fight one.

DaemonReign
06-10-2013, 13:54
Chaos Dwarfs 13
Daemon of Chaos 6 (-1)
Dark Elves 16
Dwarfs 4
High Elves 17
Lizardmen 11
Ogre Kingdoms 18
Orcs and Goblins 7 (+1)
Skaven 23
The Empire 10
Vampire Counts 13
Warriors of Chaos 24

Bretonia 13th
Beastmen 14th
Tomb Kings 15th
Wood Elves 16th

Daemons: We're looking at over-all Power right? Yes; Do the Nurgle-circus with some Slaanesh magic and sprinkle with Skillcannons.. Add some luck from Reign of Chaos and you've got a WAAC-player's delight. In the over-all perspective though Daemons should (probably) have been zeroed out already, and this poll pretty much depletes its validity if they're not the next faction to go.

OnG: A well-rounded book, hoping some more people will come out of the Woods to 'support' them 'cause their score is too low (if I could I'd give them +3 or 4 *lol*)

DaemonReign
06-10-2013, 14:00
I was just saying dwarfs are better than O&G.

I'm having a hard time seeing that.
Dwarves (much like Daemons actually) have just about one build that stands a reasonable chance of competing.
OnG on the other hand have quite a few variants.
I Think we should continue to Review the over-all instead of focusing on what that 'one build' can accomplish - because the latter would be a different poll (in which, it goes without saying, both Daemons and Dwarves ought to rate a whole lot higher than they are in this one).
Otherwise we're not really 'voting' on the same premise. The value of the result will be diminished.

Fear Ghoul
06-10-2013, 14:06
Can we get some clarification about whether we are supposed to be judging these armies from a competitive perspective or a casual perspective? Because clearly people are judging these armies based on different criteria.

SteveW
06-10-2013, 14:09
My dwarfs can beat O&G any time. 3 hordes of 40 great weapon dwarfs, 2 cannons, organ gun, catapult , BSB and runelord can go toe to toe with everything realy.

You are playing some bad OnG players then. Orcs can out shoot that list(2 lobbas, 2 divers, 1 flinger) and smash it in combat with a unit of savage orc big uns. It's cool and all to love your Dwarfs but I think the point of the thread was to point out who we think is the most powerful and +1 it, and who we think is the least powerful and -1 them. I refuse to believe that anyone thinks Dwarfs are the most powerful army.

Eldarin Hope
06-10-2013, 14:24
Dwarfs 4 (-1)


Shouldn't that be 3?

Von Wibble
06-10-2013, 15:13
Chaos Dwarfs 13
Daemon of Chaos 6
Dark Elves 16
Dwarfs 2 (-1)
High Elves 17
Lizardmen 11
Ogre Kingdoms 18
Orcs and Goblins 7
Skaven 23
The Empire 10
Vampire Counts 13
Warriors of Chaos 25 (+1)

Bretonia 13th
Beastmen 14th
Tomb Kings 15th
Wood Elves 16th
Bretonia 13th
Beastmen 14th
Tomb Kings 15th
Wood Elves 16th

I have corrected the oversight where AverageBoss typed the wrong score for dwarfs. In general the idea should be to just quote the last post in order to see the rankings, that way only ninjas can cause problems.

My judgements are based on overall.

-1 for Dwarfs because they are too 1 dimensional. Daemons just edged out there (but will get my vote if they are still in when Dwarfs are eliminated).
+1 for Chaos - do I really need to explain why?

Just a suggestion to speed up the system, most other forums where it has been used you give a +1 and a -2. I would suggest this is done when we get down to the top 10, then a -3 when we reach the top 5. Otherwise we could be here a while...

the beardless dwarf
06-10-2013, 15:35
You are playing some bad OnG players then. Orcs can out shoot that list(2 lobbas, 2 divers, 1 flinger) and smash it in combat with a unit of savage orc big uns. It's cool and all to love your Dwarfs but I think the point of the thread was to point out who we think is the most powerful and +1 it, and who we think is the least powerful and -1 them. I refuse to believe that anyone thinks Dwarfs are the most powerful army.

How the hell can 2 lobbas, 2 divers and 1 flinger out shoot 2 runed cannons, 1 runed grudge thrower and 1 organ gun? And how can a unit of savage orc big uns smash a horde of hammerers, a horde of GW warriors and a horde of GW rangers?

And I am not saying dwarfs are the most powerful army, I am saying they are better than O&G like wariors of chaos are better than wood elves...That is why dwarfs should rank higher than O&G

It's cool and all to love your O&G but I think the point of the thread was rank all armies from the worst to the best ;)

Bob Arctor
06-10-2013, 15:36
Chaos Dwarfs 13
Daemon of Chaos 6
Dark Elves 16
Dwarfs 1 (-1)
High Elves 17
Lizardmen 11
Ogre Kingdoms 18
Orcs and Goblins 8 (+1)
Skaven 23
The Empire 10
Vampire Counts 13
Warriors of Chaos 25

Bretonia 13th
Beastmen 14th
Tomb Kings 15th
Wood Elves 16th

Dwarfs are a solid army, but the others left just seem to be better on the whole (I'm not even convinced they are better than Beastmen).
Orcs & Goblins have been underrated so far. There is a reason they were occupying a lot of the top tables at the last large WFB tournament I went to.

EDIT: beardless dwarf sorry your post wasn't there when I was writing this. It's just coincidence my scores are the exact opposite of what you are saying. I don't think OnG can outshoot Dwarfs either but I still think greenskins are a stronger army as a whole against a wider variety of opponents.

Montegue
06-10-2013, 15:48
The strongest tournament build for the dwarfs is still a serious threat to a lot of armies. Two cannons, grudge, two organ guns, the best anti magic in the game, and 120 t4 ws4 s5-6 dudes to contend with is a beast for a lot of armies. Savages can kill Hammerers, unless they're busted up by organ gun and gt fire. Monsters are vulnerable to cannon fire, etc.

The dwarfs suffer when artillery fails. That's the real flaw. If artillery works it's great, and it usually works because of runic rerolls, etc. however, when it fails things can get ugly fast. That being said, a smart dwarf player can crush an army's magic phase and burn your units down before they can ever seriously threaten the dawi lines.

shelfunit.
06-10-2013, 15:50
At least two people - Ullis and Daemonreign have now voted twice, is this allowed?

EDIT: Oddly enough it is :eyebrows:

Bob Arctor
06-10-2013, 15:53
At least two people - Ullis and Daemonreign have now voted twice, is this allowed?

According to the OP's post, yes. It specifies only one post per day. I took this to mean votes because telling people they could only comment once per day seemed a bit silly.

Foegnasher
06-10-2013, 15:56
Chaos Dwarfs 13
Daemon of Chaos 7 (+1)
Dark Elves 16
Dwarfs 1
High Elves 17
Lizardmen 11
Ogre Kingdoms 18
Orcs and Goblins 7(-1)
Skaven 23
The Empire 10
Vampire Counts 13
Warriors of Chaos 25

Bretonia 13th
Beastmen 14th
Tomb Kings 15th
Wood Elves 16th

AverageBoss
06-10-2013, 16:43
I was just saying dwarfs are better than O&G.

Warpfire spam, Lightnig Cannons/DoomWheels/HPAs can all be shut down with 2 cannons and a gurdge thrower with some luck. Organ gun kills any scouts. Rangers/miners can be unpredictable and runelord with Master rune of balance and 2 runes of spelbreaking can shut down most magic phases.

I think you have never seen a dwarf ambush army, because you definetly wont be prepared to fight one.

I did not call out anyone by name so I don't understand the reply. And yes I have played against a Dwarf ambush army as a good friend of mine runs one. I have two other Dwarf players in my area as well, one who plays the typical super gun line, and a greybeard who ran a pure slayer army back in the day, but has switched to Night Goblins since he can no longer do so.

misomiso
06-10-2013, 16:44
Hey guys
Can we limit comments to a few lines everytime you vote, as otherwise back and forth discussion tends to break up the flow too much.
The criteria for voting is simply the current power balance between armies; remember its just a bit of fun though!

Chaos Dwarfs 13
Daemon of Chaos 6 (-1)
Dark Elves 16
Dwarfs 1
High Elves 17
Lizardmen 11
Ogre Kingdoms 18
Orcs and Goblins 7
Skaven 23
The Empire 10
Vampire Counts 13
Warriors of Chaos 26 (+1)

Bretonnia 13th
Beastmen 14th
Tomb Kings 15th
Wood Elves 16th

Daemons of Chaos too random i think.

Veshnakar
06-10-2013, 16:54
Chaos Dwarfs 13
Daemon of Chaos 6
Dark Elves 15(-1)
Dwarfs 1
High Elves 18(+1)
Lizardmen 11
Ogre Kingdoms 18
Orcs and Goblins 7
Skaven 23
The Empire 10
Vampire Counts 13
Warriors of Chaos 26

Bretonnia 13th
Beastmen 14th
Tomb Kings 15th
Wood Elves 16th

Mithras69
06-10-2013, 17:32
Chaos Dwarfs 13
Daemon of Chaos 6
Dark Elves 15
Dwarfs 0 (-1)
High Elves 18
Lizardmen 11
Ogre Kingdoms 18
Orcs and Goblins 7
Skaven 23
The Empire 10
Vampire Counts 13
Warriors of Chaos 27 (+1)

Dwarfs 12th
Bretonnia 13th
Beastmen 14th
Tomb Kings 15th
Wood Elves 16th

sonata1287
06-10-2013, 17:53
Chaos Dwarfs 13
Daemon of Chaos 5 (-1)
Dark Elves 15
High Elves 19 (+1)
Lizardmen 11
Ogre Kingdoms 18
Orcs and Goblins 7
Skaven 23
The Empire 10
Vampire Counts 13
Warriors of Chaos 27

Dwarfs 12th
Bretonnia 13th
Beastmen 14th
Tomb Kings 15th
Wood Elves 16th

Lord Inquisitor
06-10-2013, 17:57
Daemons: We're looking at over-all Power right? Yes; Do the Nurgle-circus with some Slaanesh magic and sprinkle with Skillcannons.. Add some luck from Reign of Chaos and you've got a WAAC-player's delight. In the over-all perspective though Daemons should (probably) have been zeroed out already, and this poll pretty much depletes its validity if they're not the next faction to go.

I think it has to be "max use power" otherwise Skaven and Chaos Dwarfs and to a degree Warriors need to be taken down a few pegs. Chaos Dwarfs in particular are really not very good if you take away their best toys like Destroyers and Magma Cannons.

Even with an "average" daemon army they don't deserve to be below many of the others. Below lizards?

Hragnar Goreskull
06-10-2013, 18:11
Chaos Dwarfs 13
Daemon of Chaos 4 (-1) DoC right back like 7th, abused one trick pony, no other army has non-tailored magic items/not one book specific standard/can't use Insp Presence based on Lord choice, all other books can regardless of one power list. Def middle bunch.
Dark Elves 16 (+1) New magic strength, new units have power with buffs from chariots etc, def moving up to top 5.
High Elves 19
Lizardmen 11
Ogre Kingdoms 18
Orcs and Goblins 7
Skaven 23
The Empire 10
Vampire Counts 13
Warriors of Chaos 27

Dwarfs 12th
Bretonnia 13th
Beastmen 14th
Tomb Kings 15th
Wood Elves 16th

Ullis
06-10-2013, 18:20
Chaos Dwarfs 13
Daemon of Chaos 5 (+1)
Dark Elves 16
High Elves 19
Lizardmen 10 (-1)
Ogre Kingdoms 18
Orcs and Goblins 7
Skaven 23
The Empire 10
Vampire Counts 13
Warriors of Chaos 27

Dwarfs 12th
Bretonnia 13th
Beastmen 14th
Tomb Kings 15th
Wood Elves 16th


DoC - Random? Sure, but they still have some very powerful elements.

Lizardmen - Took a hit with the new book and the new monsters need to be brought in large numbers to be successful.

DaemonReign
06-10-2013, 18:29
Even with an "average" daemon army they don't deserve to be below many of the others. Below lizards?
Well the 'next' elemination should be a race between the Lizards and the Daemons (it's their turn now, in what-ever order). It's looking like a match between OnG and DoC right now though but hopefully that will correct itself now that Dwarves are finally eliminated.
I have my doubts too with regard to the way WoC and Skaven have left the others behind, but again; once we get to the top-tier dept hopefully things will be less rough.
CD looks about right where they are now in score, problem is more to do with Empire's score being way too low (not to mention OnG, and prolly VC too).

Odiriuss
06-10-2013, 19:25
Chaos Dwarfs 13
Daemon of Chaos 6 (+1)
Dark Elves 16
High Elves 19
Lizardmen 10
Ogre Kingdoms 18
Orcs and Goblins 6 (-1)
Skaven 23
The Empire 10
Vampire Counts 13
Warriors of Chaos 27

IMO people here are way underestimating the power of the deamon army,it's not as strong as it used to be,but it's no joke either...

Dwarfs 12th
Bretonnia 13th
Beastmen 14th
Tomb Kings 15th
Wood Elves 16th

Soulless
06-10-2013, 19:58
Chaos Dwarfs 13
Daemon of Chaos 6
Dark Elves 15 (-1)
High Elves 19
Lizardmen 10
Ogre Kingdoms 18
Orcs and Goblins 6
Skaven 24 (+1)
The Empire 10
Vampire Counts 13
Warriors of Chaos 27

Bladelord
06-10-2013, 20:20
Chaos Dwarfs 13
Daemon of Chaos 6 (+1)
Dark Elves 15
High Elves 19 (-1)
Lizardmen 10
Ogre Kingdoms 18
Orcs and Goblins 6
Skaven 24
The Empire 10
Vampire Counts 13
Warriors of Chaos 27

mirloor
06-10-2013, 20:29
Chaos Dwarfs 13
Daemon of Chaos 5 (-1)
Dark Elves 15
High Elves 20 (+1)
Lizardmen 10
Ogre Kingdoms 18
Orcs and Goblins 6
Skaven 24
The Empire 10
Vampire Counts 13
Warriors of Chaos 27

Don Zeko
06-10-2013, 20:46
Chaos Dwarfs 13
Daemon of Chaos 6 (+1)
Dark Elves 15
High Elves 20
Lizardmen 9 (-1)
Ogre Kingdoms 18
Orcs and Goblins 6
Skaven 24
The Empire 10
Vampire Counts 13
Warriors of Chaos 27

Lord Inquisitor is right about Daemons - and he should know!

tanka
06-10-2013, 21:22
Chaos Dwarfs 13
Daemon of Chaos 6 (+1)
Dark Elves 15
High Elves 19 (-1)
Lizardmen 10
Ogre Kingdoms 18
Orcs and Goblins 6
Skaven 24
The Empire 10
Vampire Counts 13
Warriors of Chaos 27

How the hell are HE so high

Kahadras
06-10-2013, 21:38
Chaos Dwarfs 13
Daemon of Chaos 6
Dark Elves 15
High Elves 19 (-1)
Lizardmen 10
Ogre Kingdoms 18
Orcs and Goblins 6
Skaven 24
The Empire 10 (+1)
Vampire Counts 13
Warriors of Chaos 27



How the hell are HE so high

Not sure. Also suprised that Empire aren't higher.

Goblin Gonads
06-10-2013, 21:39
Chaos Dwarfs 13
Daemon of Chaos 5 (-1)
Dark Elves 15
High Elves 19
Lizardmen 10
Ogre Kingdoms 18
Orcs and Goblins 6
Skaven 25 (+1)
The Empire 10
Vampire Counts 13
Warriors of Chaos 27

I have packed my daemons away until the next edition or next book. That amount of randomness just isn't fun. You can win or lose without it being anything you or your enemy do.

Skaven, good grief, if ever an army was just crying out for an updated army book to re-address the sheer overpowered underpriced awfulness!

Spiney Norman
06-10-2013, 21:39
How the hell are HE so high
Great question, its only really the world dragon banner and frost Phoenix that allow them to get anywhere, the internal balance of the book is lamentable. I can only assume its because they have lots of fans.

I've corrected scores to include Don Zekos vote 4 posts up in squaree brackets, which seems to have been skipped over, sorry if I've misunderstood things. My vote is in rounded brackets

Chaos Dwarfs 13
Daemon of Chaos 5 (-1 me) [+1 DZ]
Dark Elves 15
High Elves 19
Lizardmen 10 (+1 me) [-1DZ]
Ogre Kingdoms 18
Orcs and Goblins 6
Skaven 25
The Empire 10
Vampire Counts 13
Warriors of Chaos 27

Dwarfs 12th
Bretonnia 13th
Beastmen 14th
Tomb Kings 15th
Wood Elves 16th

Voting for Lizards because they are one of the few armies that is strong without rely on isolated broken magic items or units, everything bar the troglodon in the LM book is strong, without being overpowered and the army as a whole can compete with even the top tier armies.

Conversely daemons are the opposite end of the scale, relying almost entirely on the skull cannon and greater daemons to get them anywhere, while most of the rest merrily sucks. Basically they're the weakest army lt in the draw IMHO.

EDIT: ok lots of simultaneous posts, I think I have caught them all

Nubl0
06-10-2013, 21:42
Daemons are potentially one of the strongest, the fact you didn't even mention beasts of nurgle makes me skeptical about your knowledge of the army.

daynewma
06-10-2013, 22:05
Chaos Dwarfs 13
Daemon of Chaos 5
Dark Elves 15 (+1)
High Elves 19
Lizardmen 9 (-1)
Ogre Kingdoms 18
Orcs and Goblins 6
Skaven 25
The Empire 10
Vampire Counts 13
Warriors of Chaos 27

Dwarfs 12th
Bretonnia 13th
Beastmen 14th
Tomb Kings 15th
Wood Elves 16th

Didn't realize we could post once per day; Lizardmen are bad. I can list tons of units that are bad (not strong): Skroxigor, jungle swarms, Cold One Riders, Bastilodons, Terradons, Kroxigor on their own, Razordons, Carnosaurs. All of that and more. They've got tons of bad options, several mediocre ones, and like one strong one: Salamanders.

Friedtaterexplosion
06-10-2013, 23:04
Chaos Dwarfs 13
Daemon of Chaos 6 (+1)
Dark Elves 15
High Elves 19
Lizardmen 9
Ogre Kingdoms 17 (-1)
Orcs and Goblins 6
Skaven 25
The Empire 10
Vampire Counts 13
Warriors of Chaos 27

Dwarfs 12th
Bretonnia 13th
Beastmen 14th
Tomb Kings 15th
Wood Elves 16th

Daemons are solid. Despite their increased randomness, they sould still be at the front of the pack. I'm amazed they have so many detractors. Perhaps it's just those who miss their 7th edition army book?

Ogres aren't top three. They need to be brought down a peg.

Hragnar Goreskull
07-10-2013, 01:49
Can already kinda see the top 5 here, DoC and O&G are where they should be, in the middle, they are just not top 5 material. The can still win for sure but not like the others that will finish ahead of them.

Pumpavius
07-10-2013, 03:31
Chaos Dwarfs 13
Daemon of Chaos 5 (-1)
Dark Elves 15
High Elves 19
Lizardmen 9
Ogre Kingdoms 17
Orcs and Goblins 6
Skaven 25
The Empire 10
Vampire Counts 13
Warriors of Chaos 28 (+1)


Dwarfs 12th
Bretonnia 13th
Beastmen 14th
Tomb Kings 15th
Wood Elves 16th

Lord Solar Plexus
07-10-2013, 04:54
Chaos Dwarfs 13
Daemon of Chaos 5
Dark Elves 15
High Elves 19
Lizardmen 9
Ogre Kingdoms 17
Orcs and Goblins 6
Skaven 25
The Empire 11 (+1)
Vampire Counts 13
Warriors of Chaos 27 (-1)


Dwarfs 12th
Bretonnia 13th
Beastmen 14th
Tomb Kings 15th
Wood Elves 16th

SteveW
07-10-2013, 05:57
Chaos Dwarfs 13
Daemon of Chaos 4 (-1)
Dark Elves 15
High Elves 19
Lizardmen 9
Ogre Kingdoms 17
Orcs and Goblins 6
Skaven 25
The Empire 11
Vampire Counts 13
Warriors of Chaos 28 (+1)


Dwarfs 12th
Bretonnia 13th
Beastmen 14th
Tomb Kings 15th
Wood Elves 16th

RatmanForever
07-10-2013, 06:16
Chaos Dwarfs 13
Daemon of Chaos 5 (+1)
Dark Elves 15
High Elves 19
Lizardmen 8 (-1)
Ogre Kingdoms 17
Orcs and Goblins 6
Skaven 25
The Empire 11
Vampire Counts 13
Warriors of Chaos 28


Dwarfs 12th
Bretonnia 13th
Beastmen 14th
Tomb Kings 15th
Wood Elves 16th

Dark Reaper
07-10-2013, 06:55
Chaos Dwarfs 13
Daemon of Chaos 6 (+1)
Dark Elves 15
High Elves 19
Lizardmen 8
Ogre Kingdoms 17
Orcs and Goblins 5 (-1)
Skaven 25
The Empire 11
Vampire Counts 13
Warriors of Chaos 28

Daemons are way stronger than people give them credit for, while O&G really aren't all that.

Dwarfs 12th
Bretonnia 13th
Beastmen 14th
Tomb Kings 15th
Wood Elves 16th

shelfunit.
07-10-2013, 07:11
Chaos Dwarfs 13
Daemon of Chaos 7 (+1)
Dark Elves 15
High Elves 19
Lizardmen 8
Ogre Kingdoms 17
Orcs and Goblins 5
Skaven 25
The Empire 10 (-1)
Vampire Counts 13
Warriors of Chaos 28

Daemons still considerably better than at least two of the remaining options up there. Still shaking my head at how people came to the conclusion Dwarfs are that bad.

Dwarfs 12th
Bretonnia 13th
Beastmen 14th
Tomb Kings 15th
Wood Elves 16th

Trains_Get_Robbed
07-10-2013, 07:18
Chaos Dwarfs 13
Daemon of Chaos 6
Dark Elves 15
High Elves 18 (-1)
Lizardmen 8
Ogre Kingdoms 17
Orcs and Goblins 5
Skaven 25
The Empire 12 (+1)
Vampire Counts 13
Warriors of Chaos 28

H.E shouldn't be that high, they may be middle of the road, but low end middle of the road. Even the BotWD only helps you in character heavy matchups or vs Demons. While everyone and their mother has a cannon these days -I smell thawed turkey.

Empire are the anti-meta. Single-highhandedly the army you take to combat the monster/monstrous filled and Deathstar filled meta game currently. Empire can out combat even "shooty" armies like Dwarfs or multi-Iron blaster and Leadblecher Ogres, but seemed to be mired by the lower tier armies. Can't count how many times Empire thoroughbred stomp a tier army like Skaven or WoC, and then turn around and lose to like Brets or OnG. Ignoring the bottom 3/4 armies that aren't normally prevalent in the later stages of tournies -or in the competitive play to start- I think that Empire are the "Black Horse" and have been under the radar.

Dwarfs 12th
Bretonnia 13th
Beastmen 14th
Tomb Kings 15th
Wood Elves 16th

Wesser
07-10-2013, 07:20
Question is if we're going to rule out any more armies at this point

High Elf players are easily the best moaners on this forum, but they and their now almost similar DE cousins are difficult to evaluate because they're only about average against heavily armoured or high toughness armies, whereas they absolutely shred T3/low armour armies so badly that it is stupid.

Ogres, Skaven and WoC predictably end up as top contenders while the rest is in the middle. Even OnG doesn't really deserve to get ruled out as they got so many decent options (especially that savage orc big'un star).

One might disagree with the ranking order and personally I find Tomb kings badly underrated (maybe it's just frustrating people that they can't march), but the the overall picture seems pretty clear at this point, which prolly ain't gonna change much with new votes

Trains_Get_Robbed
07-10-2013, 07:32
Question is if we're going to rule out any more armies at this point

High Elf players are easily the best moaners on this forum, but they and their now almost similar DE cousins are difficult to evaluate because they're only about average against heavily armoured or high toughness armies, whereas they absolutely shred T3/low armour armies so badly that it is stupid.

Ogres, Skaven and WoC predictably end up as top contenders while the rest is in the middle. Even OnG doesn't really deserve to get ruled out as they got so many decent options (especially that savage orc big'un star).

One might disagree with the ranking order and personally I find Tomb kings badly underrated (maybe it's just frustrating people that they can't march), but the the overall picture seems pretty clear at this point, which prolly ain't gonna change much with new votes

Too many people have been "touched in the bad spot" by the Elves; mainly due to the proliferation of H.E armies coming out of the woodwork. While your assertion of H.E shredding T3 and lower armies is rather indelible, untrue. Skaven and other Elves (W.E and D.E) are actually horrible matchups for a H.E general from a competitive standpoint (which is one of the criteria we're judging here no?).

H.E players haven't moaned anymore than any other army getting a new toy/unit/book outdoing the last (we just may be louder and more correct than the rest ;) ). If I had a Mandrake for every time a DoC player griped at the sight of their new book, if I could have my entire army done by now. :p

shelfunit.
07-10-2013, 07:45
Chaos Dwarfs 13
Daemon of Chaos 7
Dark Elves 15
High Elves 18 (-1)
Lizardmen 8
Ogre Kingdoms 17
Orcs and Goblins 5
Skaven 25
The Empire 11 (+1)
Vampire Counts 13
Warriors of Chaos 28


Fixed ;) .

sandstorm
07-10-2013, 07:51
Chaos Dwarfs 13
Daemon of Chaos 7
Dark Elves 15
High Elves 18
Lizardmen 7 (-1)
Ogre Kingdoms 17
Orcs and Goblins 5
Skaven 25
The Empire 12 (+1)
Vampire Counts 13
Warriors of Chaos 28

I always lol when these polls come out and Empire is underrated. At the same time, Demigryph's consistantly get voted one of if not the best special choice for the points and likewise for the steam tank in rare.

luntan
07-10-2013, 08:46
Chaos Dwarfs 13
Daemon of Chaos 7
Dark Elves 15
High Elves 18
Lizardmen 7
Ogre Kingdoms 17
Orcs and Goblins 4 (-1)
Skaven 25
The Empire 12
Vampire Counts 13
Warriors of Chaos 29 (+)

Why is people not woting for the army they think is the best or worst like the poll should be? Lots of people is now just woting for the armies they like and that the ones they think not should have a high or a low votecount.

Oogie boogie boss
07-10-2013, 09:21
Chaos Dwarfs 13
Daemon of Chaos 7
Dark Elves 15
High Elves 18
Lizardmen 7
Ogre Kingdoms 17
Orcs and Goblins 5 (+1)
Skaven 25
The Empire 12
Vampire Counts 12 (-1)
Warriors of Chaos 29

Don't get why OnG are plummeting, one of the most versatile armies out there, with some truly dangerous units (SO Big Un Horde, anyone?). VC are a good force, but too reliant on magic and the general to be as competitive as the remaining armies. Also lack any real shooting, and an army which lacks an entire phase obviously has a hole.

DaemonReign
07-10-2013, 10:25
Chaos Dwarfs 13
Daemon of Chaos 6 (-1)
Dark Elves 15
High Elves 18
Lizardmen 7
Ogre Kingdoms 17
Orcs and Goblins 6 (+1)
Skaven 25
The Empire 12
Vampire Counts 12
Warriors of Chaos 29

These two armies are the ones I call my own.

Ero-Senin
07-10-2013, 10:25
Chaos Dwarfs 12 (-) No one seems to play them as they are barely an official army so not sure they should be so well represented.
Daemon of Chaos 7
Dark Elves 15
High Elves 18
Lizardmen 7
Ogre Kingdoms 18 (+) Very powerful army that handle all phases of the game well.
Orcs and Goblins 5
Skaven 25
The Empire 12
Vampire Counts 12
Warriors of Chaos 29

Rake
07-10-2013, 10:28
Chaos Dwarfs 13
Daemon of Chaos 7
Dark Elves 15
High Elves 18
Lizardmen 7 -1 (to 6)
Ogre Kingdoms 17
Orcs and Goblins 5
Skaven 25
The Empire 12
Vampire Counts 12
Warriors of Chaos 29 +1 (to 30)

WoC and Skaven so close in sheer silly. I am giving it to WoC as Skaven is an old ed book and silly by definition. Lizardmen are weakest list in here. Too predictable, to dependant on caster lord who no longer dominates (which is a good thing).

Soulless
07-10-2013, 10:34
Chaos Dwarfs 13
Daemon of Chaos 7
Dark Elves 14 (-1)
High Elves 19 (+1)
Lizardmen 6
Ogre Kingdoms 17
Orcs and Goblins 5
Skaven 25
The Empire 12
Vampire Counts 12
Warriors of Chaos 30

DaemonReign
07-10-2013, 10:48
If I had a Mandrake for every time a DoC player griped at the sight of their new book, if I could have my entire army done by now. :p

Bah! :p
Comparing Daemons to the other books Ward have put his name on lately is like a case-study on what the difference is between a douche doing the best he can and the same douche actually trying to be a.. douche.
None of his 4 books are particularly uplifting, but Daemons were hosed like nobody else (and this ain't even about the supposed 'nerfing' going on - it's the ugly way it was done that is the problem).

DaemonReign
07-10-2013, 10:50
Chaos Dwarfs 13
Daemon of Chaos 6
Dark Elves 14
High Elves 19
Lizardmen 6
Ogre Kingdoms 17
Orcs and Goblins 6
Skaven 25
The Empire 12
Vampire Counts 12
Warriors of Chaos 30

Dwarfs 12th
Bretonnia 13th
Beastmen 14th
Tomb Kings 15th
Wood Elves 16th

*List corrected for crossed posts.

Sin Eater
07-10-2013, 10:51
I'm sorry I don't really know enough about Fantasy but where are Chaos Dwarfs in the rules? Are those just proxy Dwarfs?

Foegnasher
07-10-2013, 11:24
Chaos Dwarfs 13
Daemon of Chaos 7 (+1)
Dark Elves 14
High Elves 19
Lizardmen 6
Ogre Kingdoms 17
Orcs and Goblins 5 (-1)
Skaven 25
The Empire 12
Vampire Counts 12
Warriors of Chaos 30

Dwarfs 12th
Bretonnia 13th
Beastmen 14th
Tomb Kings 15th
Wood Elves 16th

Ero-Senin
07-10-2013, 11:47
Chaos Dwarfs 12
Daemon of Chaos 7
Dark Elves 14
High Elves 19
Lizardmen 6
Ogre Kingdoms 18
Orcs and Goblins 5
Skaven 25
The Empire 12
Vampire Counts 12
Warriors of Chaos 30

Somehow my post was ignored. This seems to be correct now

Veshnakar
07-10-2013, 12:06
Chaos Dwarfs 12
Daemon of Chaos 7
Dark Elves 13(-1)
High Elves 19
Lizardmen 6
Ogre Kingdoms 18
Orcs and Goblins 5
Skaven 25
The Empire 13(+1)
Vampire Counts 12
Warriors of Chaos 30

ewar
07-10-2013, 12:18
No one seems to play them as they are barely an official army so not sure they should be so well represented.


How does this in any way impact on their power level? Just giving them a minus because you don't see them is grossly misunderstanding the point of this poll.

EmperorNorton
07-10-2013, 12:34
Chaos Dwarfs 12
Daemon of Chaos 7
Dark Elves 13(-1)
High Elves 19
Lizardmen 6
Ogre Kingdoms 18
Orcs and Goblins 5
Skaven 25
The Empire 13(+1)
Vampire Counts 12
Warriors of Chaos 30

Chaos Dwarfs 12
Daemon of Chaos 8 (+1)
Dark Elves 13
High Elves 19
Lizardmen 6
Ogre Kingdoms 18
Orcs and Goblins 4 (-1)
Skaven 25
The Empire 13
Vampire Counts 12
Warriors of Chaos 30

Ero-Senin
07-10-2013, 13:18
How does this in any way impact on their power level? Just giving them a minus because you don't see them is grossly misunderstanding the point of this poll.

Not really, if they never beat anyone they can't be considered strong.

Also if this poll is going to be helpful or accurate it should represent armies that are actually used.

cptcosmic
07-10-2013, 13:34
High Elf players are easily the best moaners on this forum
anti HE monsterwhinethreads about how OP HE are disagree with you :rolleyes: funny how at real games and tournaments the good players can defeat HE on regular basis without problem and HE end in the middle most of the time, yet some self titled "pros" still suffer from tunnelvision syndrome and think HE are OP. the biggest contender for the best whiners are DoC players whining about the BotWD, they fail to see that fighting nurgle units is as bad as fighting a unit with 2+ ward, except BotWD is on a single unit only. for some reason DoC are usually in the top 3 in tournaments despite fighting HE with the banner...

if anything all the scrubs whining about HE are the best moaners.

furrie
07-10-2013, 13:35
I'm sorry I don't really know enough about Fantasy but where are Chaos Dwarfs in the rules? Are those just proxy Dwarfs?
Forge world has released a chaos dwarf list, which is considerd legal by most tournements

Gradek
07-10-2013, 13:38
Chaos Dwarfs 12
Daemon of Chaos 8
Dark Elves 13
High Elves 20 (+1)
Lizardmen 5 (-1)
Ogre Kingdoms 18
Orcs and Goblins 4
Skaven 25
The Empire 13
Vampire Counts 12
Warriors of Chaos 30

Lizards are actually decent, but of what's left probably are near the bottom. Again, HE have one extremely horrific build that is no fun to play against.

IcedCrow
07-10-2013, 13:46
Again, HE have one extremely horrific build that is no fun to play against.

That doesn't matter if its winning you trophies.

Captain Collius
07-10-2013, 14:41
Chaos Dwarfs 12
Daemon of Chaos 8
Dark Elves 13
High Elves 20
Lizardmen 6 (+1)
Ogre Kingdoms 18
Orcs and Goblins 3 (-1)
Skaven 25
The Empire 13
Vampire Counts 12
Warriors of Chaos 30

12th Dwarves
13th Brettonia
14th Beastmen
15th Tomb Kings
16th Wood Elves

Yeah lizards are better than you think. Orcs and goblins are worse.

misomiso
07-10-2013, 16:03
Chaos Dwarfs 12
Daemon of Chaos 8
Dark Elves 13
High Elves 20
Lizardmen 6
Ogre Kingdoms 18
Orcs and Goblins 2 (-1)
Skaven 25
The Empire 14 (+1)
Vampire Counts 12
Warriors of Chaos 30

12th Dwarves
13th Brettonia
14th Beastmen
15th Tomb Kings
16th Wood Elves

Agree O &G are weak; Empire need more love

kaulem
07-10-2013, 16:09
whoever keeps lowering demons need to check their heads (no insult intended this is just how I speak when I get emotional :-P )

I've never seen demons loose, tie sometimes but never lose, not once, and we have a fairly large group. not since 7th ed.

and I've seen mostly all nurgle armies or mixed gods armies.

kaulem
07-10-2013, 16:12
also, I have 4 armies that I've been collecting for decades, and I can understand why HE and skaven are on top of the list as their lists can create abusive armies but it is possible to create normal lists also and they become very beatable (contrary to deamons)

the beardless dwarf
07-10-2013, 16:18
whoever keeps lowering demons need to check their heads (no insult intended this is just how I speak when I get emotional :-P )

I've never seen demons loose, tie sometimes but never lose, not once, and we have a fairly large group. not since 7th ed.

and I've seen mostly all nurgle armies or mixed gods armies.

Chaos Dwarfs 12
Daemon of Chaos 8 (+99)
Dark Elves 14 (+1)
High Elves 20
Lizardmen 6
Ogre Kingdoms 18
Orcs and Goblins 1 (-1)
Skaven 25
The Empire 14
Vampire Counts 12
Warriors of Chaos 30

Are you happy now? :P

Oogie boogie boss
07-10-2013, 16:34
I find it odd that most threads exploring the idea of army tiers places OnG either in middle or high tiers, yet here they're being voted in pretty low.

Sin Eater
07-10-2013, 16:57
Not really, if they never beat anyone they can't be considered strong.

Also if this poll is going to be helpful or accurate it should represent armies that are actually used.

Yea, I think you've got the wrong end of the stick pal, for example. just because no one you have played/have seen played plays with WoC does that make them weak? For instance. No it doesn't is the answer. If that helps? :)

I'm still wondering where the rules are for them though as I used to really like thier backgrounds.

Gustav Kohn
07-10-2013, 17:11
Daemon of Chaos 8
Dark Elves 14
High Elves 20
Lizardmen 6
Ogre Kingdoms 19 (+1)
Orcs and Goblins 0 (-1)
Skaven 25
The Empire 14
Vampire Counts 12
Warriors of Chaos 30

12th Dwarves
13th Brettonia
14th Beastmen
15th Tomb Kings
16th Wood Elves

iamtheeviltwin
07-10-2013, 17:16
Daemon of Chaos 8
Dark Elves 14
High Elves 20
Lizardmen 5 (-1)
Ogre Kingdoms 19
Skaven 25
The Empire 15 (+1)
Vampire Counts 12
Warriors of Chaos 30

11th Orc and Goblins
12th Dwarves
13th Brettonia
14th Beastmen
15th Tomb Kings
16th Wood Elves

Empire are a pretty versatile army that is competitive with anyone. Lizardmen, not so much.

Ullis
07-10-2013, 17:25
Daemon of Chaos 8
Dark Elves 14
High Elves 20
Lizardmen 4 (-1)
Ogre Kingdoms 19
Skaven 25
The Empire 15
Vampire Counts 13 (+1)
Warriors of Chaos 30

11th Orc and Goblins
12th Dwarves
13th Brettonia
14th Beastmen
15th Tomb Kings
16th Wood Elves

Lizardmen are a decent army, but overall weaker than the remaining ones, in my opinion.

VC's can be tough nasty to face - Terrorgheists, Vampire Lords, Black Knight buses etc.

PS - I am a little surprised to see the Orcs and Golbins going so soon. I think folks are overstating the effect of animosity.

mirloor
07-10-2013, 18:04
Daemon of Chaos 8
Dark Elves 14
High Elves 21 (+1)
Lizardmen 4
Ogre Kingdoms 19
Skaven 25
The Empire 15
Vampire Counts 13
Warriors of Chaos 29 (-1)

11th Orc and Goblins
12th Dwarves
13th Brettonia
14th Beastmen
15th Tomb Kings
16th Wood Elves

DaemonReign
07-10-2013, 18:09
I find it odd that most threads exploring the idea of army tiers places OnG either in middle or high tiers, yet here they're being voted in pretty low.

What could have become something slightly accurate derailed into Comedy as OnG are eliminated with Daemons and Lizards still in play.

luntan
07-10-2013, 18:10
Chaos Dwarfs 12
Daemon of Chaos 8
Dark Elves 14
High Elves 21
Lizardmen 4
Ogre Kingdoms 19
Skaven 25
The Empire 15
Vampire Counts 13
Warriors of Chaos 29

11th Orc and Goblins
12th Dwarves
13th Brettonia
14th Beastmen
15th Tomb Kings
16th Wood Elves

Have already voted today. Have just wrote Chaos Dwarfs again, they disapered a few post ago.

Gradek
07-10-2013, 18:14
PS - I am a little surprised to see the Orcs and Golbins going so soon. I think folks are overstating the effect of animosity.

But look what is left. O&G can be very good, but since we have to assume no comp I think what is left is about right (Slann can still be tough). I do agree though that both Vamps and Demons seem way too low. The blender lord bus with dual geist list is tough for many armies to deal with and demons are still no pushovers when min/maxed (if a bit more random now). I also think Warriors of Chaos are way too high. Sure the monster mash build can give some armies fits, but with the abundance of cannons in the meta now, it isn't as bad as people make it out to be.

Turgol
07-10-2013, 18:22
Chaos Dwarfs 11 (-1)
Daemon of Chaos 8
Dark Elves 15 (+1)
High Elves 21
Lizardmen 4
Ogre Kingdoms 19
Skaven 25
The Empire 15
Vampire Counts 13
Warriors of Chaos 29

11th Orc and Goblins
12th Dwarves
13th Brettonia
14th Beastmen
15th Tomb Kings
16th Wood Elves

DEs are way too low, specially if compared to HE.
Seeing what is left, Chaos Dwarves are way too high as well.

Ullis
07-10-2013, 18:25
But look what is left. O&G can be very good, but since we have to assume no comp I think what is left is about right (Slann can still be tough). I do agree though that both Vamps and Demons seem way too low. The blender lord bus with dual geist list is tough for many armies to deal with and demons are still no pushovers when min/maxed (if a bit more random now). I also think Warriors of Chaos are way too high. Sure the monster mash build can give some armies fits, but with the abundance of cannons in the meta now, it isn't as bad as people make it out to be.

Sure, but the raises another issue - the overstatement of the power of cannons as "anti-meta". I still think the the typical WoC list is THE tournament list, right now. These kind of polls tend to look skewed until they are complete. The end result is to simply rank the armies, not work out by how much some books are better than others.

I agree with your analysis over all though, mate.

Bob Arctor
07-10-2013, 18:38
Chaos Dwarfs 10 (-1)
Daemon of Chaos 8
Dark Elves 15
High Elves 21
Lizardmen 4
Ogre Kingdoms 19
Skaven 26 (+1)
The Empire 15
Vampire Counts 13
Warriors of Chaos 29

11th Orc and Goblins
12th Dwarves
13th Brettonia
14th Beastmen
15th Tomb Kings
16th Wood Elves

OnG eliminated a bit early for me, but this is hardly an exact science and most armies could easily move up or down a place.

Voted Chaos Dwarfs down because their core is either expensive or low quality - a bit like Bretonnians. Also once you take away the 3 nastiest things in the army (K'dai, Magma Cannons, Ash Cloud) they aren't much different from regular Dwarfs and worse in some areas.
Skaven still one of the nastiest armies around imo, and easier to cheese up than some others.

Gradek
07-10-2013, 18:39
Sure, but the raises another issue - the overstatement of the power of cannons as "anti-meta". I still think the the typical WoC list is THE tournament list, right now. These kind of polls tend to look skewed until they are complete. The end result is to simply rank the armies, not work out by how much some books are better than others.

I agree with your analysis over all though, mate.

But why is the monster mash WoC list so prevalent at tournies? I would argue that it is a good list that is very easy to assemble/paint and thus easier to put together than say the typical tourney build skaven list.

Scammel
07-10-2013, 18:42
The issue isn't that O&G and Daemons are bad, not at all - just that everything is also really good.

In fact, one might even say that with the exception of the bottom 25% it might even be... balanced?

Torga_DW
07-10-2013, 18:54
The issue isn't that O&G and Daemons are bad, not at all - just that everything is also really good.

In fact, one might even say that with the exception of the bottom 25% it might even be... balanced?

Heh.* Keeping in mind its just a poll on the internet, looking at the differences in scores vs which books have been updated for 8th edition, it looks a bit lopsided to me.

*i don't think any blanket statement that starts with: 'aside from 1 out of 4, the results are good' ever ends well.

Kahadras
07-10-2013, 19:07
I find it odd that most threads exploring the idea of army tiers places OnG either in middle or high tiers, yet here they're being voted in pretty low.

I think this is more a 'which army do you hate the most'.

Scammel
07-10-2013, 19:15
Heh.* Keeping in mind its just a poll on the internet, looking at the differences in scores vs which books have been updated for 8th edition, it looks a bit lopsided to me.

*i don't think any blanket statement that starts with: 'aside from 1 out of 4, the results are good' ever ends well.

Of course, I should have put 'relatively speaking'. The only truly balanced GW game I've ever played is LotR and that suffers from being a teensy bit limited. Considering the scope of Fantasy and the twisted, mewling abomination of an edition that preceded it, I think they've done very well.

Torga_DW
07-10-2013, 19:22
Sorry, i probably misinterpreted, and as things go its a poll on the net - not implying anything about the posters, just that it'll be a microcosm of a microcosm. Still interesting to see, and if the average is ~15, not too bad. I picked up the lotr and wotr rulebooks a couple years ago, i thought they looked really good as far as rules go.

Captain Collius
07-10-2013, 20:04
I think this is more a 'which army do you hate the most'.

Well hell the army I hate most is demons. However if you don't use Nurgle you lose easy as that. Also to Kaulem: Demons ain't broken bring em over here and good ole Lord kroak will show you that they are not.

RanaldLoec
07-10-2013, 20:36
Chaos Dwarfs 10
Daemon of Chaos 8
Dark Elves 15 (+1)
High Elves 21
Lizardmen 4 (-1)
Ogre Kingdoms 19
Skaven 26
The Empire 15
Vampire Counts 13
Warriors of Chaos 29

11th Orc and Goblins
12th Dwarves
13th Brettonia
14th Beastmen
15th Tomb Kings
16th Wood Elves

Warriors are very powerful with a nurgle build no doubt.

Lizardmen just didn't get any overly abuseble builds. I think its a great book for balance it's a shame other books aren't similar.

The new dark elves book every other book I've read the worst reaction I had was "ok a few powerful units and combos but nothing too bad"

Reading the Dark elves new book has me cursing the dark gods for betraying me.

outbreak
07-10-2013, 20:55
Chaos Dwarfs 10
Daemon of Chaos 7 (-1)
Dark Elves 15
High Elves 21
Lizardmen 4
Ogre Kingdoms 19
Skaven 27 (+1)
The Empire 15
Vampire Counts 13
Warriors of Chaos 29

11th Orc and Goblins
12th Dwarves
13th Brettonia
14th Beastmen
15th Tomb Kings
16th Wood Elves

Skaven because some of their rules don't gel right with 8th and dropped daemons as their a bit random now and out of the armies left I feel their the least solid on a reliable basis. If I could add +1 to more armies I would have dark elves, woc,high elves and ogres come next in that order.

Lord Inquisitor
07-10-2013, 21:02
Well the 'next' elemination should be a race between the Lizards and the Daemons (it's their turn now, in what-ever order). It's looking like a match between OnG and DoC right now though but hopefully that will correct itself now that Dwarves are finally eliminated.
Yet Daemons seem to be placing well at uncomped tournaments. A lot of top three placings at GTs recently.

I didn't peg daemons being that strong when they came out but they really seem to be doing a lot better than OnG, Empire, Chaos Dwarfs, etc.


I have my doubts too with regard to the way WoC and Skaven have left the others behind, but again; once we get to the top-tier dept hopefully things will be less rough.
CD looks about right where they are now in score, problem is more to do with Empire's score being way too low (not to mention OnG, and prolly VC too).
Empire and VC are being left behind with the new breed of books coming out. Skaven also seem to be way too high. Maybe it's because my area doesn't see a lot of rats but it seems to me that the once-great Skaven under-empire that dominated in early 8th is crumbling in the new meta. Chaos Dwarfs are really unbalanced and have some great matchups, but they have some awful matchups too so the CD just don't seem to do well enough to place consistently well at tournies.

Spiney Norman
07-10-2013, 21:41
Chaos Dwarfs 10
Daemon of Chaos 6 (-1)
Dark Elves 15
High Elves 21
Lizardmen 5 (+1)
Ogre Kingdoms 19
Skaven 27
The Empire 15
Vampire Counts 13
Warriors of Chaos 29

11th Orc and Goblins
12th Dwarves
13th Brettonia
14th Beastmen
15th Tomb Kings
16th Wood Elves

We're not really going to see Lizards drop down before daemons, that's crazy talk, Lizards should outrank at least vamps, and maybe empire too, they have daemons beat easily.

I guess not many folks like, or know much about Lizards...

ewar
07-10-2013, 21:45
Not really, if they never beat anyone they can't be considered strong.

Also if this poll is going to be helpful or accurate it should represent armies that are actually used.

I see Chaos Dwarfs at every single tournament I go to... because they're frickin awesome. Maybe I just dreamed getting tabled by that K'daii - though it would have been more like a nightmare.

Chaos Dwarfs 10
Daemon of Chaos 6
Dark Elves 15
High Elves 21
Lizardmen 6 (+1)
Ogre Kingdoms 19
Skaven 27
The Empire 14 (-1)
Vampire Counts 13
Warriors of Chaos 29

11th Orc and Goblins
12th Dwarves
13th Brettonia
14th Beastmen
15th Tomb Kings
16th Wood Elves


I'm with Spiney on this one, LM got nerfed but they are still incredible all rounders: wyssan spam + saurus horde is just made of win. As for Empire, I just don't rate them the way others do - Stanks are one dimensional and now people take the tools for dealing with MCs surely they're not still causing problems? I even managed to beat the Stank and chicken horde with my TKs at the last tourney I went to.

nick larking
07-10-2013, 21:56
Chaos Dwarfs 10
Daemon of Chaos 7 (+1)
Dark Elves 15
High Elves 21
Lizardmen 5 (-1)
Ogre Kingdoms 19
Skaven 27
The Empire 14
Vampire Counts 13
Warriors of Chaos 29

11th Orc and Goblins
12th Dwarves
13th Brettonia
14th Beastmen
15th Tomb Kings
16th Wood Elves



With DoC consistently being in top 5 of the last 5 major tournaments they are still very powerfull. If you build the correct list they are certainly stronger in tournaments than LM, OK, HE, empire and VC without doubt. [edit fixed scores]

Lord Inquisitor
07-10-2013, 22:44
We're not really going to see Lizards drop down before daemons, that's crazy talk, Lizards should outrank at least vamps, and maybe empire too, they have daemons beat easily.

I guess not many folks like, or know much about Lizards...

That's funny, I was thinking the same about daemons :p

Daemons seem to be doing well as nick says. It's early days for the new lizards.

I've seen Chaos Dwarfs at 3 out of 4 of the last 4 GTs I've been to. Definitely one of the least common armies but certainly being used.

ewar
07-10-2013, 22:48
It is early days I agree - however surely people don't think they're weaker than Empire or VC? I don't have any qualms coming up against them at tournaments. I haven't played against new DoC, so won't comment on them, though from what I've seen online they still look very good.

Furbyballer
08-10-2013, 00:13
Chaos Dwarfs 10
Daemon of Chaos 7
Dark Elves 16 (+1)
High Elves 21
Lizardmen 4 (-1)
Ogre Kingdoms 19
Skaven 27
The Empire 14
Vampire Counts 13
Warriors of Chaos 29


11th Orc and Goblins
12th Dwarves
13th Brettonia
14th Beastmen
15th Tomb Kings
16th Wood Elves

lizardmen are not very good at all right now and DEs just got a huge boost with asf. As to DoC? They are much better than most people in here give them credit for and will get smoked in the south east meta if they come with that attitude towards them.

Hragnar Goreskull
08-10-2013, 00:37
Chaos Dwarfs 10
Daemon of Chaos 6 (-1) I highly doubt any top 5 DoC list at a tourney is any diff then Nurgle/SC list I've seen, they are not going to gain much ground on the 8 armies above them, sorry.
Dark Elves 16
High Elves 21
Lizardmen 5 (+1) 3d6 LD tests, great magic and item/abilities options, solid troops
Ogre Kingdoms 19
Skaven 27
The Empire 14
Vampire Counts 13
Warriors of Chaos 29


11th Orc and Goblins
12th Dwarves
13th Brettonia
14th Beastmen
15th Tomb Kings
16th Wood Elves

daynewma
08-10-2013, 01:12
Chaos Dwarfs 10
Daemon of Chaos 7 (+1) Daemons are pretty good. At least not worse than...
Dark Elves 16
High Elves 21
Lizardmen 4 (-1) ...these guys.
Ogre Kingdoms 19
Skaven 27
The Empire 14
Vampire Counts 13
Warriors of Chaos 29

They're at least on pa
11th Orc and Goblins
12th Dwarves
13th Brettonia
14th Beastmen
15th Tomb Kings
16th Wood Elves

sandstorm
08-10-2013, 02:50
Chaos Dwarfs 10
Daemon of Chaos 7
Dark Elves 16
High Elves 21
Lizardmen 3 (-1)
Ogre Kingdoms 19
Skaven 27
The Empire 15 (+1)
Vampire Counts 13
Warriors of Chaos 29


11th Orc and Goblins
12th Dwarves
13th Brettonia
14th Beastmen
15th Tomb Kings
16th Wood Elves

Moss
08-10-2013, 02:59
Chaos Dwarfs 10
Daemon of Chaos 7
Dark Elves 16
High Elves 21
Lizardmen 4 (+1)
Ogre Kingdoms 19
Skaven 27
The Empire 14 (-1)
Vampire Counts 13
Warriors of Chaos 29


11th Orc and Goblins
12th Dwarves
13th Brettonia
14th Beastmen
15th Tomb Kings
16th Wood Elves

I really don't think LM should be the next to go. It's not easy anymore, but it's very possible to consistently win with them while using a variety of builds.

jarbo
08-10-2013, 02:59
Chaos Dwarfs 10
Daemon of Chaos 7
Dark Elves 17 (+1)
High Elves 21
Lizardmen 3 (-1)
Ogre Kingdoms 19
Skaven 27
The Empire 15
Vampire Counts 13
Warriors of Chaos 29

HalfBlood
08-10-2013, 03:01
Chaos Dwarfs 10
Daemon of Chaos 6 (-1)
Dark Elves 17
High Elves 21
Lizardmen 4 (+1)
Ogre Kingdoms 19
Skaven 27
The Empire 15
Vampire Counts 13
Warriors of Chaos 29

11th Orc and Goblins
12th Dwarves
13th Brettonia
14th Beastmen
15th Tomb Kings
16th Wood Elves

Lord Solar Plexus
08-10-2013, 04:53
Chaos Dwarfs 10
Daemon of Chaos 6
Dark Elves 17
High Elves 20
Lizardmen 4
Ogre Kingdoms 19
Skaven 27
The Empire 16 (+1)
Vampire Counts 13
Warriors of Chaos 28 (-1)

11th Orc and Goblins
12th Dwarves
13th Brettonia
14th Beastmen
15th Tomb Kings
16th Wood Elves

Drasanil
08-10-2013, 05:00
Chaos Dwarfs 10
Daemon of Chaos 7 (+1)
Dark Elves 17
High Elves 20
Lizardmen 3 (-1)
Ogre Kingdoms 19
Skaven 27
The Empire 16
Vampire Counts 13
Warriors of Chaos 28

11th Orc and Goblins
12th Dwarves
13th Brettonia
14th Beastmen
15th Tomb Kings
16th Wood Elves

Dreyer
08-10-2013, 06:10
Chaos Dwarfs 10
Daemon of Chaos 7
Dark Elves 17
High Elves 20
Lizardmen 4 (+1)
Ogre Kingdoms 19
Skaven 27
The Empire 15 (-1)
Vampire Counts 13
Warriors of Chaos 28

11th Orc and Goblins
12th Dwarves
13th Brettonia
14th Beastmen
15th Tomb Kings
16th Wood Elves

Trains_Get_Robbed
08-10-2013, 06:24
Chaos Dwarfs 10
Daemon of Chaos 7
Dark Elves 18 (+1)
High Elves 20
Lizardmen 3 (-1)
Ogre Kingdoms 19
Skaven 27
The Empire 15
Vampire Counts 13
Warriors of Chaos 28

11th Orc and Goblins
12th Dwarves
13th Brettonia
14th Beastmen
15th Tomb Kings
16th Wood Elves

Glen_Savet
08-10-2013, 07:07
Chaos Dwarfs 10
Daemon of Chaos 7
Dark Elves 18
High Elves 20
Lizardmen 4 (+1)
Ogre Kingdoms 19
Skaven 27
The Empire 14(-1)
Vampire Counts 13
Warriors of Chaos 28

11th Orc and Goblins
12th Dwarves
13th Brettonia
14th Beastmen
15th Tomb Kings
16th Wood Elves

I'm not sure why people don't rate the Lizards either. They didn't really lose anything with the new book; they've still got one of the BEST lord level casters for the cost in the game, Scar Veterans on Cold Ones are terrifying, skirmishing skinks are still amazing and now that they have SUPER easy access to level 1 beast casters, I can see Saurus blocks making a comeback. Ancient Stegadons got excellent upgrades as well.

dooms33ker
08-10-2013, 07:27
Chaos Dwarfs 11 (+1)
Daemon of Chaos 7
Dark Elves 18
High Elves 20
Lizardmen 4
Ogre Kingdoms 19
Skaven 27
The Empire 14
Vampire Counts 13
Warriors of Chaos 27 (-1)

11th Orc and Goblins
12th Dwarves
13th Brettonia
14th Beastmen
15th Tomb Kings
16th Wood Elves

Someone posted that if you take out the K' daai destroyer, Magma Cannon, and Ash Storm, Chaos Dwarfs are possibly worse than normal dwarfs. This is simply untrue. The aforementioned things when used properly will easily place Chaos Dwarfs into the top 5 armies, so why wouldn't you take them unless playing in a very friendly environment? Sure, there are few really powerful CD builds at the moment, but does that make the army any less competitive? I think every Chaos Dwarf player will take at least one of these choices, but even when taking some of the sub-optimal units, the army is still stronger than Dwarfs. Think of it this way, Skaven wouldn't be where it is right now were it not for Skavenslaves, HPA, and the screaming Bell. CD are no different, except you hardly ever meet them in the field to discover it.

Now on the other hand, I think warriors of Chaos should not be number two, as much as it is a powerful book, it doesn't have anything to make it stand shoulders above Ogres and High Elves. Perhaps number three or four would be more suitable.

Soulless
08-10-2013, 07:54
Chaos Dwarfs 11
Daemon of Chaos 7
Dark Elves 17 (-1)
High Elves 21 (+1)
Lizardmen 4
Ogre Kingdoms 19
Skaven 27
The Empire 14
Vampire Counts 13
Warriors of Chaos 27

ivan55599
08-10-2013, 08:05
Chaos Dwarfs 11
Daemons of Chaos 6 (-1)
Dark Elves 17
High Elves 21
Lizardmen 4
Ogre Kingdoms 19
Skaven 27
The Empire 14
Vampire Counts 13
Warriors of Chaos 28 (+1)

11th Orc and Goblins
12th Dwarves
13th Brettonia
14th Beastmen
15th Tomb Kings

I was a Hordes of Chaos player. Now in 8th edition I'm only WoC player. Doc randomness and Beastmen-problems are too much to hold 3 armies at this moment.

Turgol
08-10-2013, 08:14
Chaos Dwarfs 11
Daemons of Chaos 5 (-1)
Dark Elves 18 (+1)
High Elves 21
Lizardmen 4
Ogre Kingdoms 19
Skaven 27
The Empire 14
Vampire Counts 13
Warriors of Chaos 28

11th Orc and Goblins
12th Dwarves
13th Brettonia
14th Beastmen
15th Tomb Kings

DoC and Lizzies should be very close. Both can be very powerful but seem a little bit behind the rest of the remaining armies.
Voted DE because they should be on par with HE.

Turgol
08-10-2013, 08:20
Chaos Dwarfs 11
Daemons of Chaos 5 (-1)
Dark Elves 18 (+1)
High Elves 21
Lizardmen 4
Ogre Kingdoms 19
Skaven 27
The Empire 14
Vampire Counts 13
Warriors of Chaos 28

11th Orc and Goblins
12th Dwarves
13th Brettonia
14th Beastmen
15th Tomb Kings

DoC and Lizzies should be very close. Both can be very powerful but seem a little bit behind the rest of the remaining armies.
Voted DE because they should be on par with HE.

luntan
08-10-2013, 08:22
Chaos Dwarfs 11
Daemons of Chaos 5
Dark Elves 18
High Elves 21
Lizardmen 3 (-)
Ogre Kingdoms 19
Skaven 27
The Empire 14
Vampire Counts 13
Warriors of Chaos 29 (+)

11th Orc and Goblins
12th Dwarves
13th Brettonia
14th Beastmen
15th Tomb Kings

mirloor
08-10-2013, 08:33
Chaos Dwarfs 11
Daemons of Chaos 5
Dark Elves 18
High Elves 23 (+1)
Lizardmen 3
Ogre Kingdoms 19
Skaven 27
The Empire 14
Vampire Counts 13
Warriors of Chaos 28 (-1)

11th Orc and Goblins
12th Dwarves
13th Brettonia
14th Beastmen
15th Tomb Kings

Somhere above, near "Solar Plexus" vote list was changed. You can easily see this when check. That's why HE 23. Warriors are hardcore, but what they have so hardcore? Characters and chariots. And this wont work agains everyone. So they maybe top3 but not 1st for sure.

Mithras69
08-10-2013, 08:43
Chaos Dwarfs 11
Daemons of Chaos 5
Dark Elves 18
High Elves 23
Lizardmen 2 (-1)
Ogre Kingdoms 19
Skaven 27
The Empire 14
Vampire Counts 13
Warriors of Chaos 29 (+1)

11th Orc and Goblins
12th Dwarves
13th Brettonia
14th Beastmen
15th Tomb Kings

Ero-Senin
08-10-2013, 08:55
Yea, I think you've got the wrong end of the stick pal, for example. just because no one you have played/have seen played plays with WoC does that make them weak? For instance. No it doesn't is the answer. If that helps? :)

I'm still wondering where the rules are for them though as I used to really like thier backgrounds.

It's because you can debate that they aren't a proper army. Not convinced they should be in the poll at all personally. They don't have a proper army book (it's forge world by the way) and at most 1% of players use them or even know they exist. But i didn't want to get into a debate just thought that as they are hardly ever seen and wouldn't be allowed in all comps and tournies that they shouldn't really count.

shelfunit.
08-10-2013, 09:03
Chaos Dwarfs 11
Daemons of Chaos 6 (+1)
Dark Elves 18
High Elves 23
Lizardmen 2
Ogre Kingdoms 19
Skaven 27
The Empire 13 (-1)
Vampire Counts 13
Warriors of Chaos 29

11th Orc and Goblins
12th Dwarves
13th Brettonia
14th Beastmen
15th Tomb Kings

Fear Ghoul
08-10-2013, 09:04
Chaos Dwarfs 11
Daemons of Chaos 5
Dark Elves 18
High Elves 22 (-1)
Lizardmen 3 (+1)
Ogre Kingdoms 19
Skaven 27
The Empire 14
Vampire Counts 13
Warriors of Chaos 29

11th Orc and Goblins
12th Dwarves
13th Brettonia
14th Beastmen
15th Tomb Kings

Neither Lizardmen nor Daemons of Chaos are that bad in a tournament. From a power perspective they are pretty much on par with Orcs and Goblins, Empire, and Vampire Counts.

The reason people downvote Orcs and Goblins despite their overall average performance at tournaments is that they are more random than other armies, and the one thing competitive types hate more than anything else it's randomness.

DaemonReign
08-10-2013, 09:08
Chaos Dwarfs 11
Daemons of Chaos 3 (-1)
Dark Elves 18
High Elves 21
Lizardmen 4 (+1)
Ogre Kingdoms 19
Skaven 27
The Empire 14
Vampire Counts 13
Warriors of Chaos 29

11th Orc and Goblins
12th Dwarves
13th Brettonia
14th Beastmen
15th Tomb Kings

* I'm not sure what's been going on in the last few hours but it seems one or two 'votes' have been skipped so I corrected the current ranking as best I could; Turgul's minus on Daemons was forgotten and Mirloor appears to have added 2 Points to High Elves with only +1 somehow.

My Points today:
-1 for Daemons - I would ask that we rise above lingering 7th Ed groupthinking as well perhaps evaluating Daemons of Chaos and not merely Daemons of Nurgle as some people are obviously doing. I said this Before as well, in so many Words - for this poll to have any value we need to apply the same measuring stick to all armies. If we are going to look at High Elves without tBoTWD, or Chaos Dwarves without their best toys (etcetera) then it stands to reason that Flamers and Daemon Princes are factored into the DoC-score (not just Beasts and Slaanesh Magic - because, indeed, the score would be much higher).

+1 for Lizards - It's probably a pretty even race between DoC and Lizards in the over-all. A grand shame that OnG have already been eliminated though; too bad that one was forced through while the more realistic people were away.. Afaic the 11th-10th ranking belongs to DoC/Lizzies (in whatever order) while OnG should sit as the 9th army.. I would venture to guess that this will actually be the single most blatant discrepancy of this poll when all is said and done.

EDIT
Crossed post with Fear Ghoul, added his score to the above ranking. :)

shelfunit.
08-10-2013, 09:35
Chaos Dwarfs 11
Daemons of Chaos 5 (-1)
Dark Elves 18
High Elves 22
Lizardmen 4 (+1)
Ogre Kingdoms 19
Skaven 27
The Empire 14
Vampire Counts 13
Warriors of Chaos 29

11th Orc and Goblins
12th Dwarves
13th Brettonia
14th Beastmen
15th Tomb Kings

* I'm not sure what's been going on in the last few hours but it seems one or two 'votes' have been skipped so I corrected the current ranking as best I could; Turgul's minus on Daemons was forgotten and Mirloor appears to have added 2 Points to High Elves with only +1 somehow.


Fixed - Turgul had a double post, and Fear Ghoul had mis-typed the Daemon score originally EDIT: And poor old HEs keep getting demoted randomly somehow.

Fear Ghoul
08-10-2013, 09:51
My Points today:
-1 for Daemons - I would ask that we rise above lingering 7th Ed groupthinking as well perhaps evaluating Daemons of Chaos and not merely Daemons of Nurgle as some people are obviously doing. I said this Before as well, in so many Words - for this poll to have any value we need to apply the same measuring stick to all armies. If we are going to look at High Elves without tBoTWD, or Chaos Dwarves without their best toys (etcetera) then it stands to reason that Flamers and Daemon Princes are factored into the DoC-score (not just Beasts and Slaanesh Magic - because, indeed, the score would be much higher).

Internal balance means nothing in a tournament. It's your most powerful tools that win games not the least powerful. If people are evaluating armies based on the least sued options in a book then I'm afraid they don't really understand external balance.

mirloor
08-10-2013, 09:52
Again, HE lost one point without voting (2 points total one with no vote)

shelfunit.
08-10-2013, 09:54
Again, HE lost one point without voting (2 points total one with no vote)

That's the second time you've fixed that today :p

Oogie boogie boss
08-10-2013, 09:58
Chaos Dwarfs 11
Daemons of Chaos 5
Dark Elves 18
High Elves 21
Lizardmen 5 (+1)
Ogre Kingdoms 19
Skaven 27
The Empire 14
Vampire Counts 12 (-1)
Warriors of Chaos 29

11th Orc and Goblins
12th Dwarves
13th Brettonia
14th Beastmen
15th Tomb Kings

Really do think Lizardmen are better than VC. I'd also be tempted to say the have the edge on DoC too.

mirloor
08-10-2013, 10:02
And i think that thats the last time ;-) couse it goes on again and again and again (last post too)

DaemonReign
08-10-2013, 10:23
And i think that thats the last time ;-) couse it goes on again and again and again (last post too)

From what I could see on the last page HE Went up 2 Points as you added your +1, which looked odd.
I Believe HE jumped from 21 to 23 with your +1.
That's what I tried correcting. Now it's just confusing.

mirloor
08-10-2013, 10:26
Agree from 21 to 23 but before that look at "Solar Plexus" post above, he did not vote for HE and he demoted them too, again it was done by "DaemonReign (http://www.warseer.com/forums/member.php?64921-DaemonReign)" its you ( you did not vote and you demoted them), and then again it was done by "Oogie boogie boss (http://www.warseer.com/forums/member.php?77895-Oogie-boogie-boss)" now. And really, you cant argue with simple plus minus math so ... there is really no point if you cant see that.


Ah and if you wanted to correct it you could read why it was changed, i described it under the vote.

Lord Solar Plexus
08-10-2013, 10:47
My Points today:
-1 for Daemons - I would ask that we rise above lingering 7th Ed groupthinking as well perhaps evaluating Daemons of Chaos and not merely Daemons of Nurgle as some people are obviously doing.

I'm just back from a tourney (4 games) in which DoC simply waltzed through all opposition. There are a lot of if's and when's here - one tourney, a player ranking in the German top 20, some comp but still, it's got nothing to do with 7th Ed groupthinking when you see how someone effortlessly twentynils his opponents. And he didn't have Nurgle only, either.

Spiney Norman
08-10-2013, 10:50
I'm just back from a tourney (4 games) in which DoC simply waltzed through all opposition. There are a lot of if's and when's here - one tourney, a player ranking in the German top 20, some comp but still, it's got nothing to do with 7th Ed groupthinking when you see how someone effortlessly twentynils his opponents. And he didn't have Nurgle only, either.

Hooray for the triumph of anecdotal evidence...

Surely the point in this is for everyone to award points based on their own personal experience of play with/against each army, trying to argue someone round to your own point of view by suggesting your experience is somehow more normative or more valid than theirs because you went to 'a tourney' would seem to detract from the point of this poll.

EmperorNorton
08-10-2013, 11:11
Hooray for the triumph of anecdotal evidence...
What an odd thing to say when this whole poll, as you note yourself, is nothing but a collection of anecdotal evidence.
To go a bit beyond anecdotal evidence, I'll repost this link (http://www.tabletopturniere.de/t3_armies.php?gid=1&cid=1&latest=1) to an overview of the outcome of the tournaments in Germany held over the last six months. Looking at the overall rankings, Daemons come in third. Lookin at wins only, they come in second.

Ergo my vote of the day:
Chaos Dwarfs 11
Daemons of Chaos 6 (+1)
Dark Elves 18
High Elves 21
Lizardmen 4 (-1)
Ogre Kingdoms 19
Skaven 27
The Empire 14
Vampire Counts 12
Warriors of Chaos 29

11th Orc and Goblins
12th Dwarves
13th Brettonia
14th Beastmen
15th Tomb Kings

Friedtaterexplosion
08-10-2013, 11:23
Chaos Dwarfs 11
Daemons of Chaos 7 (+1)
Dark Elves 18
High Elves 21
Lizardmen 4
Ogre Kingdoms 19
Skaven 27
The Empire 13 (-1)
Vampire Counts 12
Warriors of Chaos 29

11th Orc and Goblins
12th Dwarves
13th Brettonia
14th Beastmen
15th Tomb Kings

I think this thread has served the purpose of showing that Daemons are the most devisive army.

Romark
08-10-2013, 11:48
Chaos Dwarfs 11
Daemons of Chaos 6 (-1)
Dark Elves 19 (+1)
High Elves 21
Lizardmen 4
Ogre Kingdoms 19
Skaven 27
The Empire 13
Vampire Counts 12
Warriors of Chaos 29

11th Orc and Goblins
12th Dwarves
13th Brettonia
14th Beastmen
15th Tomb Kings

Just feel that Deamons without a Nurgle build aren't that playable... Or, that's the impression i get from the armies I've faced.

EmperorNorton
08-10-2013, 11:51
Just feel that Deamons without a Nurgle build aren't that playable... Or, that's the impression i get from the armies I've faced.

If you take away the best units in any army, it won't be as powerful as it is with them. So what is your point?

Chaos Warlord
08-10-2013, 11:56
Chaos Dwarfs 11
Daemons of Chaos 6
Dark Elves 19
High Elves 21
Lizardmen 4
Ogre Kingdoms 19
Skaven 27
The Empire 13
Vampire Counts 12
Warriors of Chaos 29

11th Orc and Goblins
12th Dwarves
13th Brettonia
14th Beastmen
15th Tomb Kings
16th Wood Elves
17th Dogs of War
18th Kislev

i just took the opportunity to add the bottom two still playable armies to the list of forfeits.
some turnaments still allow them after all, including the german turnaments linked above.

please note that i did not vote at all in this post, since im a casual gamer i dont think i have the expertise on wich army is cheesier than the other

carry on.



Wood Elves are so bad they've disappeared from the list?

Edit: it seems they disapeared on page 11 in post #211
added them to the list again :D

SteveW
08-10-2013, 12:04
Wood Elves are so bad they've disappeared from the list?

Romark
08-10-2013, 12:26
If you take away the best units in any army, it won't be as powerful as it is with them. So what is your point?

But i haven't seen seen Tzeentch or Slaaneshi builds. And apart from Flamers i haven't seen any of their models (except a Tzeentch Deamon Prince). And i'm not talking tourney play here, friendly play and you only ever see Nurgle. They are using a quarter of the book, basically, and therefore worthy of a -1 in my opinion.

Captain Collius
08-10-2013, 12:26
Chaos Dwarfs 11
Daemons of Chaos 5 (-1)
Dark Elves 19
High Elves 21
Lizardmen 5 (+1)
Ogre Kingdoms 19
Skaven 27
The Empire 13
Vampire Counts 12
Warriors of Chaos 29

11th Orc and Goblins
12th Dwarves
13th Brettonia
14th Beastmen
15th Tomb Kings
16th Wood Elves
17th Dogs of War
18th Kislev

Veshnakar
08-10-2013, 12:43
Chaos Dwarfs 11
Daemons of Chaos 5
Dark Elves 18(-1)
High Elves 21
Lizardmen 5
Ogre Kingdoms 19
Skaven 27
The Empire 14(+1)
Vampire Counts 12
Warriors of Chaos 29

11th Orc and Goblins
12th Dwarves
13th Brettonia
14th Beastmen
15th Tomb Kings
16th Wood Elves
17th Dogs of War
18th Kislev

dementian
08-10-2013, 12:47
Chaos Dwarfs 11
Daemons of Chaos 5
Dark Elves 18
High Elves 21
Lizardmen 4 (-1)
Ogre Kingdoms 19
Skaven 28 (+1)
The Empire 14
Vampire Counts 12
Warriors of Chaos 29

11th Orc and Goblins
12th Dwarves
13th Brettonia
14th Beastmen
15th Tomb Kings
16th Wood Elves
17th Dogs of War
18th Kislev

Lord Solar Plexus
08-10-2013, 12:52
You've robbed The Empire of a point there.

ewar
08-10-2013, 12:55
Why are people rating Empire so highly? I don't see them as that strong.

Plus, does anyone else think we need to up the +/- value a bit to stop this going rou d in circles and fizzling out?

dementian
08-10-2013, 12:58
You've robbed The Empire of a point there.

Had an old page where that post was not made yet. Editted thanks

TheSpid
08-10-2013, 13:03
Why are people rating Empire so highly? I don't see them as that strong.

Plus, does anyone else think we need to up the +/- value a bit to stop this going rou d in circles and fizzling out?
People just need to vote properly instead. Stop voting up the army you "don't think is the worst army" and voting down the army you "don't think is the best army".

The whole point of a voting system like this is that everyone votes who they think is the best/worst and nothing else. That will give a rating that means something. You can't control what other people vote so just let it go and vote for the army YOU think is the best/worst. Surely noone thinks LM is the best army out there, yet they have received numerous +1 votes. Same goes for WoC the other way around. How on earth would anyone rate WoC lower than all of the armies left on this list?

Nothing to do with you ewar, i just think that rather than changing the system, people should just use it right.

the beardless dwarf
08-10-2013, 13:51
People just need to vote properly instead. Stop voting up the army you "don't think is the worst army" and voting down the army you "don't think is the best army".

The whole point of a voting system like this is that everyone votes who they think is the best/worst and nothing else. That will give a rating that means something. You can't control what other people vote so just let it go and vote for the army YOU think is the best/worst. Surely noone thinks LM is the best army out there, yet they have received numerous +1 votes. Same goes for WoC the other way around. How on earth would anyone rate WoC lower than all of the armies left on this list?

Nothing to do with you ewar, i just think that rather than changing the system, people should just use it right.


The point of this voting system is to rank all armies from worst to the best. So it is ok if someone thinks LM are better than DoC.

Romark
08-10-2013, 13:55
The point of this voting system is to rank all armies from worst to the best. So it is ok if someone thinks LM are better than DoC.

I people voted as TheSpid said from the start we would have a true list from best to worst. As that hasn't happened it is now sqewed. As each army disappears off the list a new 'worst' army will be available to all those that thought the previous one was. Simple.

Gradek
08-10-2013, 14:16
Chaos Dwarfs 11
Daemons of Chaos 5
Dark Elves 18
High Elves 22 (+1)
Lizardmen 3 (-1)
Ogre Kingdoms 19
Skaven 28
The Empire 14
Vampire Counts 12
Warriors of Chaos 29

11th Orc and Goblins
12th Dwarves
13th Brettonia
14th Beastmen
15th Tomb Kings
16th Wood Elves

Still going with HE as best and LM as worst of what is left.

EmperorNorton
08-10-2013, 14:20
But i haven't seen seen Tzeentch or Slaaneshi builds. And apart from Flamers i haven't seen any of their models (except a Tzeentch Deamon Prince). And i'm not talking tourney play here, friendly play and you only ever see Nurgle. They are using a quarter of the book, basically, and therefore worthy of a -1 in my opinion.

If you only ever see Nurgle, play can't be all that friendly.
And how does it affect the relative power level of the book negatively how much of the available units get used as long as those which are used frequently used are among the best in the entire game?

Spiney Norman
08-10-2013, 14:32
Surely noone thinks LM is the best army out there, yet they have received numerous +1 votes.

If we are voting for the overall strength of the army, factoring into account every unit it contains, then yes I think Lizardmen are one of the strongest, if you are just voting for the army with the most broken build, then no because Lizardmen don't have any broken builds. What they do have is consistently strong units in every slot and probably the best non-SC wizard in the game.

Its fine to say that Daemons are great because of beasts of nurgle and skull cannons, but they don't look so great when you consider anything slaaneshi or Tzeentchian.

And even as things stand Lizards should be above Vamps, Empire and Daemons at the very least, I'd put them on about the same level as high/dark elves,

SteveW
08-10-2013, 14:34
Lizerdmen have fiery convocation, that is enough to get a +1 from anyone who understands the magic phase.