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Chucky64
05-10-2013, 06:08
Morning, having got the digital copy at midnight last night I've read through and come up with a couple of questions, may have more to follow but only 2 for now:)

Certain weapons, such as morathi's weapon, is described as a paired weapon. I can't find any mention of these in the rb and it's not an army special rule, but does it basically mean they count as 2 weapons for an extra attack, or that as they're paired they don't get the extra attack?

Also, one of the dark magic spells (can't remember the name and while at work can't get the ipad out) says place small round template then scatter it. Any models hit suffer.... Does this mean any models hit once scattered and finished moving, or from where it's placed to where it ends up any models hit from start to finish are hit? Sorry if this is a bit of a noob question but I've been out of fantasy for about a year and in 40k there are some things that do get hit from start to finish, but now that I think about it those rules say models passed over, but I'd still like clarification pls :)

I hope you're all enjoying reading the new book too, many thanks.

Voss
05-10-2013, 07:06
The paired weapon rules are on the magic weapons page in the main rulebook. Yes, they grant Extra Attack.

When scattering, templates only affect the final location. Note that Black Horror doesn't scatter, but moves, so it (as described in the spell) affects anything touched.

Chucky64
05-10-2013, 07:44
Cool, thanks for that, it was soul stealer that I was thinking of and that does scatter, so just the final position then:)

Galgenvogel
06-10-2013, 18:02
Hey there i will use your Topic Chucky for my DE Question. ^^
It's about the Kharybdiss, and about the special rule for gaining additional w6 auto Hits. Does all Attacks do have to hit the same model or is it a translation bug at the german edition?

and my Second question is for the CoB does it affect all Models in 6" or all units in 6"? As example: the cauldron is positioned so that 1 additionally spearman would be in 6" so is only he allowed to reroll the wound or even the 30 other spearman in the unit?

Edit: I do have an additional question for the fast rare cavallary (dont know the english name sorry) they get w3 wounds if they miscast without any Armor saves allowed, is that correct? So they do have the 4+ ward save? (or is it a German translation bug? And it should be written no saves allowed?)

Joeslop
06-10-2013, 20:46
Hey there i will use your Topic Chucky for my DE Question. ^^
It's about the Kharybdiss, and about the special rule for gaining additional w6 auto Hits. Does all Attacks do have to hit the same model or is it a translation bug at the german edition?

and my Second question is for the CoB does it affect all Models in 6" or all units in 6"? As example: the cauldron is positioned so that 1 additionally spearman would be in 6" so is only he allowed to reroll the wound or even the 30 other spearman in the unit?

Edit: I do have an additional question for the fast rare cavallary (dont know the english name sorry) they get w3 wounds if they miscast without any Armor saves allowed, is that correct? So they do have the 4+ ward save? (or is it a German translation bug? And it should be written no saves allowed?)

Yes, the Kharibdyss must use all its attacks on one model, and if all of those attacks hit, the extra hits go on the same model. Not so great for fighting a unit of infantry but great for other monsters or high W models.

The Cauldron's Strength of Khaine only affects MODELS within 6". allowing them to reroll To-Wound rolls of 1, so just the single Dreadspear if he is the only one within 6".

BZZT! It affects all UNITS within 6". Only models with the Murderous Prowess special rule gain the benefit within that unit.

Doomfire Warlocks are what you're talking about I think. They do have a 4+ Ward Save (except against Slaanesh models) which they would get if they roll a miscast. Normally they would only have a 6+ armor save anyway.

Don Zeko
06-10-2013, 20:51
The Cauldron's Strength of Khaine only affects MODELS within 6". allowing them to reroll To-Wound rolls of 1, so just the single Dreadspear if he is the only one within 6".

This is not correct. The rule reads "friendly models with the murderous prowess special rule in units within 6" of the Cauldron...."

Clowater
06-10-2013, 20:57
Hey there i will use your Topic Chucky for my DE Question. ^^
It's about the Kharybdiss, and about the special rule for gaining additional w6 auto Hits. Does all Attacks do have to hit the same model or is it a translation bug at the german edition?

and my Second question is for the CoB does it affect all Models in 6" or all units in 6"? As example: the cauldron is positioned so that 1 additionally spearman would be in 6" so is only he allowed to reroll the wound or even the 30 other spearman in the unit?

Edit: I do have an additional question for the fast rare cavallary (dont know the english name sorry) they get w3 wounds if they miscast without any Armor saves allowed, is that correct? So they do have the 4+ ward save? (or is it a German translation bug? And it should be written no saves allowed?)


1. All of your attacks have to hit the same model, and be successful. So in mot cases you will need 5 hits to get the extra D6.


2. Just break down the criteria.

Friendly models. That have Murderous Prowess. (Those Models) in units. Within 6" get to re-roll all failed wounds.

Its definitely different wording from the typical (and easier) "Units with models within 6" get the re-rolls."

Its just different wording on which is the benefactor and which is the criteria. Its probably worded in such a way that you could not have a friendly model in 6" without murderous prowess and still have a unit that does have the rule, get the re-roll. (Possibility Pending 9th ed Allies)


3. Doomfire Warlocks. if they miscast they Suffer D3 wounds with no armour saves. Yes they do not have an armour save, but they could have one from outside sources. which would be ignored when they take a miscast. So, when they miscast they will take the D3 wounds and still be able to save them with their 4+ Ward.

Mr_Rose
06-10-2013, 21:15
Hmm. How about "models with the MP rule that are part of units which are within 6” of the cauldron…" as a wording?

Don Zeko
06-10-2013, 23:43
1. All of your attacks have to hit the same model, and be successful. So in mot cases you will need 5 hits to get the extra D6.


2. Just break down the criteria.

Friendly models. That have Murderous Prowess. (Those Models) in units. Within 6" get to re-roll all failed wounds.

Its definitely different wording from the typical (and easier) "Units with models within 6" get the re-rolls."

Its just different wording on which is the benefactor and which is the criteria. Its probably worded in such a way that you could not have a friendly model in 6" without murderous prowess and still have a unit that does have the rule, get the re-roll. (Possibility Pending 9th ed Allies)


3. Doomfire Warlocks. if they miscast they Suffer D3 wounds with no armour saves. Yes they do not have an armour save, but they could have one from outside sources. which would be ignored when they take a miscast. So, when they miscast they will take the D3 wounds and still be able to save them with their 4+ Ward.

If the result is that it only applies to models within 6" of the cauldron, then we have redundant phrases. Compare two ways of phrasing the rule:

"friendly models with the murderous prowess special rule in units within 6" of the Cauldron...."

"friendly models with the murderous prowess special rule within 6" of the Cauldron...."

These would be identical in function if your interpretation is correct, because models cannot not be in units. Even a single character model is technically a unit of one. Let's compare two more:

"friendly models with the murderous prowess special rule in units within 6" of the Cauldron...."

"friendly units within 6" of the Cauldron...."

Here we have a difference in meaning. The first sentence applies only to models with the murderous prowess rule in those units, while the second applies to all models, including mounts and so forth. The sentence doesn't make sense unless it means that if a friendly unit is within 6" of the cauldron, then all models in it that have the murderous prowess special rule re-roll all rolls to wound.

Joeslop
07-10-2013, 00:04
Don Zeko is correct! The wording is a little ...unusual at first but makes sense with a bit more careful reading. The important part is that it affects UNITS within 6" but only MODELS within that UNIT that have MP will benefit from it.

Don Zeko
07-10-2013, 00:33
Don Zeko is correct! The wording is a little ...unusual at first but makes sense with a bit more careful reading. The important part is that it affects UNITS within 6" but only MODELS within that UNIT that have MP will benefit from it.

Sometimes actual legal training makes you a better rules lawyer ;)

mariosaezma
07-10-2013, 12:12
Hello, im from Spain and we think that the spanish edition of DE rulebook have a misprint. DE crossbows have Armour piercing rule in english edition of the army?

Thank you

AUN'SHI
07-10-2013, 13:26
The DE book has a pretty funny misprint in their magic section. It state any trebl "tripple" rolled will get 3d6 st 1 attacks :P

Also just want to know what you guys think the COB makes you re-roll all to wound hits even shooting? it does not state close combat do we think this will be FAQ'd

AUN'SHI
07-10-2013, 13:28
yes they do

furrie
07-10-2013, 13:40
3. Doomfire Warlocks. if they miscast they Suffer D3 wounds with no armour saves. Yes they do not have an armour save, but they could have one from outside sources. which would be ignored when they take a miscast. So, when they miscast they will take the D3 wounds and still be able to save them with their 4+ Ward.
They are calvalry so they have 6+ armour save for being mounted, but yes they don't get there armour save agianst the miscast

Artiee
07-10-2013, 14:57
The paired weapon rules are on the magic weapons page in the main rulebook. Yes, they grant Extra Attack.


Chucky64, The page reference for this rule is The Magic Weapons Section of the Magic Item in the appendix. (BIG Book pg 501, Small book pg ??)

CaliforniaGamer
07-10-2013, 15:59
Ok how are people on this one: CoB allows models reroll to wound, doesnt specify CC, Range, Spells.

Put 4 RBTs and 40 xbowmen hundled around a CoB, fire, reroll wounds at range+warlocks throwing doombolts or scavenger harpoons =PROFIT.

Discuss.

Mr_Rose
07-10-2013, 17:05
Does the bolt thrower have Murderous Prowess? No it doesn't.
The crew tokens do, but they aren't the ones firing; the bolt thrower simply borrows their Ballistic Skill when it does.

CaliforniaGamer
07-10-2013, 17:33
Does the bolt thrower have Murderous Prowess? No it doesn't.
The crew tokens do, but they aren't the ones firing; the bolt thrower simply borrows their Ballistic Skill when it does.

that is a very interesting perspective. By that logic though a crossbow doesnt have murderous prowess either, it borrows the ballistic skill of the shooter. As does a blade.

I have never imagined inanimate objectives as having personhood and thus requiring rule to be included but for WFB warmachines that somehow might be the case. Dunno.

Lifetaker
07-10-2013, 18:29
Does anyone knows how Black horror works against the Banner of the World Dragon?? Thanks!

kylek2235
07-10-2013, 18:36
Does anyone knows how Black horror works against the Banner of the World Dragon?? Thanks!

Take a strength test, fail and die. Just like Dwellers, Pit of Shades and Purple Sun, the Banner of the World Dragon offers no help.

Blkc57
07-10-2013, 18:45
Take a strength test, fail and die. Just like Dwellers, Pit of Shades and Purple Sun, the Banner of the World Dragon offers no help.

Except that you still get a ward save, which in this case is 2+ . I feel like I actually have to applaud Matt Ward for that change to Black Horror, I am looking forward to the day when all the save or die spells do the exact same thing and Dwellers, Pit, and Purple Sun all give a ward save to resist the effect. It will make MR much more useful.

kylek2235
07-10-2013, 18:49
Except that you still get a ward save, which in this case is 2+ .

Nope. That's where the BoTD fails

Edit: Sorry, at school. Now that I think about it, it did say something about allowing ward saves. My first thought was the standard "take test and die" spell.

Mr_Rose
07-10-2013, 18:53
that is a very interesting perspective. By that logic though a crossbow doesnt have murderous prowess either, it borrows the ballistic skill of the shooter. As does a blade.

I have never imagined inanimate objectives as having personhood and thus requiring rule to be included but for WFB warmachines that somehow might be the case. Dunno.

Who gives a damn about personhood? This is a game about models which have rules that govern their interactions. The war machine is a separate model to the crew and has separate special rules while the standard infantry repeater crossbow is not a separate model to anything.

AUN'SHI
07-10-2013, 19:15
Who gives a damn about personhood? This is a game about models which have rules that govern their interactions. The war machine is a separate model to the crew and has separate special rules while the standard infantry repeater crossbow is not a separate model to anything.

What about magic do I get to re-roll wounds with my spells? also the bolt thrower and chariot imo would both get a re-roll as they are using the weapon not the weapon firing on it's owm. The whole unit has this rule I blieve there is no seperation between the weapon and the crew. IMO this will get FAQ'd to Close combat attacks only but until it does anything with the murderous prowess rule gets to re-roll all to wounds. Bolt thrower, the harpoon, repeater cross bows magic ect ect.

Blkc57
07-10-2013, 19:18
Nope. That's where the BoTD fails

Edit: Sorry, at school. Now that I think about it, it did say something about allowing ward saves. My first thought was the standard "take test and die" spell.

Ya if you read it the spell it still grants you a ward save to prevent the death if you have one. Really really awesome change to such type of spells, I'm actually gonna try and petition my club into making that a current house rule for all the BRB "save or dies". I'm crossing my fingers that GW decides to FAQ the rest to do the same or at least change it to be that way in 9th.

kylek2235
07-10-2013, 19:27
Ya if you read it the spell it still grants you a ward save to prevent the death if you have one. Really really awesome change to such type of spells, I'm actually gonna try and petition my club into making that a current house rule for all the BRB "save or dies". I'm crossing my fingers that GW decides to FAQ the rest to do the same or at least change it to be that way in 9th.

Lol, good luck! I think that's a great idea. The meta down here doesn't have a lot of "6 dice a super spell for victory" types, so it's not something that worries me overly, but I wouldn't shed a tear for a change to those spells, at the very least to give MR some more teeth.

Mr_Rose
07-10-2013, 19:37
The whole unit has this rule I blieve there is no seperation between the weapon and the crew.
You believe wrong. Read the unit entries; they explicitly separate out the crew and the war machine and give each one different special rules.

Blkc57
07-10-2013, 20:43
They are all still one model Rose with a split profile, in 8th edition crewmen are not separate models anymore. Strength of Khaine only cares if the model posses the Murderous prowess rule, which if one part of the model does then the whole model does. Warmachines lack the rule that most split profile cavalry models have that prevents bleed over from one part of a model to another of special rules.

Its pretty much BS, but RAW I can't see anyway to stop it. I will be house ruling this in most games and informing any TO at tournaments that they need to put a stop to such shenanigans and make the Strength of Khaine apply only to close combat attacks as I believe Mr. Ward intended it to.

Mr_Rose
07-10-2013, 20:52
Where is the general rule "split profile ≡ one model" because I can't find one? There is a specific statement to that effect for cavalry and an identical one for chariots, and monstrous cavalry refer to the regular cavalry, but no equivalent (specification or referral) for war machines.

Blkc57
07-10-2013, 21:01
Its on page 108 for Warmachines, Rose, and page 82 for cavalry.

Crew are ignored for gaming purposes and only considered wound markers if you even bothered to place them down (which in many places I've seen people not bother to do). The model uses split profile, if the crew actually were models it really wouldn't need the split profile now would it?

Blkc57
07-10-2013, 21:02
Its on page 108 for Warmachines, Rose, and page 82 for cavalry.

Crew are ignored for gaming purposes and only considered wound markers if you even bothered to place them down (which in many places I've seen people not bother to do). The model uses split profile, if the crew actually were models it really wouldn't need the split profile now would it?

Mr_Rose
07-10-2013, 21:37
Care to address the question?
Where is the general statement that having a split profile makes members of a unit one model?
That's easy, it doesn't exist, or at least I cannot find it and you won't tell me where it is. Fine, next question?
Where then is the specific statement that the split profile of a war machine and crew makes them all one model?
Such statements exist for cavalry and chariots, but not for war machines.
Further, on the same page you refer to, you are told to "remove a crew model" which would be difficult of the crew and war machine were all one model as you would then, by your own argument, remove the whole thing as soon as it suffered one wound.

Blkc57
07-10-2013, 22:06
Ok I'll address the question because you are really interested in having this discussion devolve in this manner. On page 108 is a section called Split Profile that states that the warmachine has two profiles one for itself and one for its crew it tells you when to use each profile. Also located on page 108 is this box, I know its hard to see because its really boldy outlined and has all these bright pictures of warmachines inside of it. In it there is a headline that reads THE CREW. You may have skipped over it. It states that the crew aren't really a unit, you ignore them for gaming purposes, and I guess this might be important to you "TREATING THE WARMACHINE ITSELF AS THE EXTENT OF THE UNIT". For gaming purposes you consider only the warmachine as the model, hence why it uses the split profile and doesn't really need to consider the models of the crew except as a handy way of keeping track of your wounds and attacks and giving your model some aesthetic pleasure.

I'll put it this way, a little more kindly because I think we are getting too hot headed over this. The crew models are only markers, wound counters if you will, they have no rules. The rules for the crew go onto the warmachine split profile which is part of the rules for the warmachine model. Thus part of the model has the Muderous Prowess rule. Thus the entire model can now be effected by the Strength of Khaine.

Mr_Rose
07-10-2013, 22:24
And thus the entire war machine model is removed when you "remove a crew model" whenever the unit takes a wound.

In simplest terms: either war machine crew are separate models to their machine or war machines all have only one Wound; you cannot have it both ways and be consistent.

I will happily play either way, even though I prefer the one where all the distinctions built into the rulebooks actually make a lick of difference. Your third way, however, where war machines and crew are sometimes one model and other times several, switching whenever it seems most convenient, I will not touch.

AUN'SHI
07-10-2013, 22:27
You believe wrong. Read the unit entries; they explicitly separate out the crew and the war machine and give each one different special rules.

What how dare you let me read the book oh I mean you are wise beyond your years my good fellow :P lol ya you are right I did believe wrong my bad :angel:

AUN'SHI
07-10-2013, 22:30
And thus the entire war machine model is removed when you "remove a crew model" whenever the unit takes a wound.

In simplest terms: either war machine crew are separate models to their machine or war machines all have only one Wound; you cannot have it both ways and be consistent.

I will happily play either way, even though I prefer the one where all the distinctions built into the rulebooks actually make a lick of difference. Your third way, however, where war machines and crew are sometimes one model and other times several, switching whenever it seems most convenient, I will not touch.

Are the crew not used for close combat? take the crew out and the bolt thrower can't fight as the rules are for the model. That being said so I can re-roll my wounds for magic it seems :) that's cool

Blkc57
07-10-2013, 22:32
Rose. I wil say this again for the last time because I now realize you will never get this, like Neo in the Matrix trying to understand that in truth there is no spoon: THERE ARE NO CREW MODELS, THEY ARE ONLY CONSIDERED COUNTERS. You use a split profile and the warmachine model has the split profile.

You do not need to "remove the model" when you place it without crew all you have to do is put a few coins down or put a dice down next to it to symbolize how many wounds it has left (AKA how many crew it has) just like we do for every other multi wound model in warhammer. Like I said there are many people who don't even bother to play with the crew models, because they know that the only model that matters for gaming purposes is the warmachine model.

RanaldLoec
07-10-2013, 22:41
Are the crew not used for close combat? take the crew out and the bolt thrower can't fight as the rules are for the model. That being said so I can re-roll my wounds for magic it seems :) that's cool

I used to be able to stack the abilitys of the empires celestial hurricanum to get +2 to hit for about four weeks.

Then the errata and faq landed.

I'm not saying it will change but be aware it could. I never rush into army builds until the errata lands so I know exactly how everything works.

Mr_Rose
07-10-2013, 23:00
Yeah, I'm going to let my last post on the topic of war machine crew in the other thread stand and leave that topic in here as it is getting silly having one thread dedicated to the subject and also having the same argument in this one.

Lord Zarkov
07-10-2013, 23:08
You do not need to "remove the model" when you place it without crew all you have to do is put a few coins down or put a dice down next to it to symbolize how many wounds it has left (AKA how many crew it has) just like we do for every other multi wound model in warhammer. Like I said there are many people who don't even bother to play with the crew models, because they know that the only model that matters for gaming purposes is the warmachine model.


When the War Machine suffers a wound, remove a crew model. Once all the crew have been removed the war machine itself is removed
from play.
So yes you do have to removed a model when the the War Machine takes wounds - the rules are in fact quite explicit about it. Also if someone deploys a War Machine without crew then it's dead - so don't do it.
If some people want to house rule things to allow their cool conversions/dioramas then good for them, but it's not what the rules actually say.

Also worth noting from p108:

we ignore them for most gaming purposes
Emphasis mine. Note most not all. Separate special rules for the different models that comprise a War Machine would be one of those cases where they're not ignored.

Blkc57
07-10-2013, 23:27
No Zarkov, you can just use other ways of keeping track of the wounds. Its not that hard to do it without crewmen. I play Empire and I don't put crewmen down. It makes it easier to place the model down or carry it around if I don't have to keep track of crewmen that get lost or break. They say MOST gaming purposes because you can still use the crewmen as wound markers for gaming purposes. But things like special rules, and effects? You ignore them, thus the warmachine is the target and the you alter the split profile appropriately. Its what I have always done with my warmachines it makes it so simplistic to play. The argument in this is does a rule or effect trigger against all of them. The answer would be yes, for instance lets say I hit a cannon with the spell The Withering and drop its toughness by 3, is only the cannon effected? No both the cannon and the crew are suffer since they share a split profile, thus the cannon is now T 4 and the crew all T 1. Depending on what you do to it you use the appropriate profile. Thus if shooting you now wound against t4, if smacking it in close combat you pummel a t1 model with three wounds.

Ignore the Strength of Khaine, because honestly it pisses me off that I have defend the idiotic writing of Matt Ward, who couldn'trealize that Strength of Khaine should obviously only effect close combat attacks.

Lets say in the next book for some crazy reason wood elves now get to operate bolt thowers (lets call them branch cannons) and all wood elves have a brand new cool rule that lets them reroll ones on shooting attacks. i would argue that if only the crewmen had the rule that branch cannon would still be allowed to reroll that to hit roll of 1, because the crazy Marksman's Prowess rule applies to the whole model which the profile of the wood elf crew is included in.

bigbiggles
09-10-2013, 06:45
The crew has to count sometimes, like when figuring out how many attacks you can make in CC

cptcosmic
09-10-2013, 10:10
I would like to repeat what I already wrote in the other thread here.

-first Reaper Bolt Thrower army list entry
Special Rules (Crew)
Always Strike First
Hatred (High Elves)
Murderous Prowess

Special Rules (Reaper Bolt Thrower)
Repeater Bolt Thrower

-second, in the rulebook, crew are referred to as models and warmachines split profile is not treated as single models by RAW (unlike cavarly)

-and third, by RAW, as already mentioned the crew has the special rule and the warmachines rules state that the crew are just markers and are ignored. the crew only matters when specifically stated, like in close combat or when you determine the ballistic used for the warmachines attack.