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Voss
05-10-2013, 07:41
Personally, I'm pretty pleased with it (which is why I'm up at 3am with the iBooks version). There is a lot to like, and not much jumping out at me as bad.

The background is lovely, lots of little bits and pieces on Dark Elf society and religion beyond Khaine. It is almost starting to look like a functional (if horrible and sadistic) society that is at least somewhat rational in a fantasy setting. There is a lot more background I need to delve into, but I'm largely impressed overall.

The new models are great, (yes, even the hydra), and the rules and costs are looking rather good to my eyes.

I'm actually even considering a special character for the first time- Tullaris. Because he gives his entire unit frenzy, and even though they don't get ASF rerolls because they attack at I, extra attacks on executioners when they reroll ones with S6 is really, really disgusting. They're also rather inexpensive as far as S6 killing blow infantry goes. The downside, of course, is he is distressingly easy to kill.

The hydra and scourgerunner as special choices came as a personal surprise to me, which is good, because there are a lot of crazy things in the rare slot, particularly the warlocks. (Effectively, a 5 wound 4++ save level 2 wizard with 10 S4 poisoned attacks and 5 steed attacks? for just a bit more than a level 2 sorceress? Crazy. And good spells too)

The sisters of slaughter, on the other hand, confuse me a fair bit, partly because I'm not sure what they're role really is, and the suffer a bit from special rule overlap, something that comes up in other places as well. They get a bonus to hit and wound, but only if they're in a fight with something with a better weapon skill or higher strength. But they already get rerolls to hit against most targets, and reroll 1s to wound. The overall effect is pushing the dice to a fairly minimum impact, but they are only S3, so they aren't all that impressive against a large range of targets (and given the unique design of the weapons, the fact that they are just hand weapon & shield is pretty disappointing).

Another weird overlap is Kouran Darkhand. He grants Unbreakable if he is with Black Guard, but stubborn all the time. I guess you could run him with a different unit, but...he adds a ridiculous amount to a BG unit that it seems unreasonable.

The fleetmaster confuses me entirely, to the point that it looks like it is in the wrong character area. A master's statline (except +1W) and only 50 points of items allowed, and no options at all, with a special rule that isn't all that easy to pull off unless he's killing unit champions. Lokhir is much, much better, as is a dreadlord.

Bleakswords and Dreadspears are frankly another puzzle. They're clearly trading attacks against the parry save, but the corsairs, while more expensive, are covering both with better armor and extra attacks (and no restriction on those, unlike the spears). The handbows open of some potentially amusing options as well, though they aren't comparable to the repeater crossbows. The brace of handbows for the reaver is nearly free rangedattacks, and can be combined with the additional handweapon as well (since that must bought for the entire unit).

But a few quirks aside, I'm pretty impressed with the entire release.


I will suggest a moment of silence for the poor harpies, since they are entirely outshined and utterly worthless. They aren't dark elves, so have none of the special rules (or any at all beyond fly) and are rubbish in every way possible. Dark riders are vastly better for a mere handful of points (same number of attacks, but 5 are ASF, S4 and reroll 1s to wound), and the warlocks are utterly terrifying in the same role if you want to splurge.

Ville
05-10-2013, 08:06
What's the deal with Harpies, now? Being able to fly is all they need to bring to the table, assuming they're not grossly overpriced.

TheDarkDuke
05-10-2013, 13:58
So far my biggest gripe is everything i like is in special. Why did they have to move the hydra there :( now i havenothing that is even a rare choice in my army and doubt i will as im not overly fond of any of the rare units.


What's the deal with Harpies, now? Being able to fly is all they need to bring to the table, assuming they're not grossly overpriced.

Well they cost as much as a blackguard they have no special rules beyond fly and they are in an extremely bloated special section. I suppose they have uses but I'd never bother with them

Chaos Undecided
05-10-2013, 14:11
Small thing but its nice that they've let non special characters sorceresses use any of the eight lore or Dark magic now

HereticHammer01
05-10-2013, 14:34
I love the inclusion of a lord level beastmaster, don't know if thats been done before? Monster mash seems very possible with the hydra in special and the kharybdis in rare.

lbecks
05-10-2013, 14:44
I love the inclusion of a lord level beastmaster, don't know if thats been done before? Monster mash seems very possible with the hydra in special and the kharybdis in rare.

Are there beasts in the DE army other than the ones that have models?

Chaos Undecided
05-10-2013, 14:45
Indeed I had kind of hoped he/she would be able to boost the monsters leadership without needing to be the general but instead we get the attack buff so a monster mash army would be very cramped together unless you want your monsters high tailing it at the first opportunity, you could always take Malekith on his dragon though.

IcedCrow
05-10-2013, 14:54
So far my biggest gripe is everything i like is in special. Why did they have to move the hydra there :( now i havenothing that is even a rare choice in my army and doubt i will as im not overly fond of any of the rare units.

oh, the horrible process of not getting everything you like and having to choose. I play eldar, and I feel your pain lol (and I'm assembling a dark elf army again, painted as drow)

Voss
05-10-2013, 14:59
What's the deal with Harpies, now? Being able to fly is all they need to bring to the table, assuming they're not grossly overpriced.

They don't really do anything that dark riders don't also do, the points difference is trivial and the riders are much, much better. And core.

Scammel
05-10-2013, 14:59
So far my biggest gripe is everything i like is in special.

My sympathy is limited when Special is up to 50% of the army. In most games that's at least 1000pts.

Nubl0
05-10-2013, 15:21
Was expecting a serious nerf to the hydra, but he appears to be really good still. Not as underpriced as before but still a very strong choice.

Bingo the Fun Monkey
05-10-2013, 15:43
I've been dying to know how Cold One Knights stand now. With the release of new cores, the prospect of building a "house army" seems pretty real to me. Thoughts?

TheDarkDuke
05-10-2013, 16:02
My sympathy is limited when Special is up to 50% of the army. In most games that's at least 1000pts.

Thats fine and all but i'd still prefer bolt throwers and hydras in the rare section that way i can still field my units of CoK, executioners and black guard, it's not a huge issue for me it just means i wont beable to field the army i used to field. We'll see how people like to face even more hydras now that they are cheaper and now in special slots.

Voss
05-10-2013, 16:04
I've been dying to know how Cold One Knights stand now. With the release of new cores, the prospect of building a "house army" seems pretty real to me. Thoughts?

They seem very solid to me. Very accurate and excessively likely to wound, with a lot of attacks from the cold ones on top. A gleaming pennant is a nice little dodge for the first failed stupidity test to help them operate independently, which is good, because a lot of the army is going to want to cluster. Only real downside is the point cost, but considering how ridiculously reliable their attacks are with ASF and MP, it seems justified.

sysy16
05-10-2013, 17:08
There is a lot to like about the new book and I am foremost a High Elf player although Dark Elves are my second largest army by only a small margin.

There are few little things that irritate me.

Why do Shades , a scouting light infantry force, get to have a standard bearer AND great weapons when Shadow warriors and Sisters of Averlon don't?

Not sure why the dark elves now have access to all the lores. It seems a little out of character for them to be using "light or life" or is it just me?

Why do Dark riders have shields, light armour and still retain fast cav status? Yet Chaos horsemen and HE Reavers cav can't?

These do not break the book but they seem a bit random


I do hate that DE have army wide ASF now as well but I also hate that HE have this too. It seems lazy and silly. If they wanted to have re-rolls, there are other ways to do it without having an elven spearmen striking before a Exhaulted Greater Daemon!

All in all, I am not having major huffs about the new book compared to some. Think of all the stupid cheap and broken builds the Dark Elves had before !!!!

IcedCrow
05-10-2013, 17:37
Solid book.

Djekar
05-10-2013, 17:52
I haven't got my book yet (for which I will forever curse GW), but my initial thoughts based on the rather expansive rumors are that the troops got better at killing things and less good at surviving. Magic got toned down in sheer ability to force it through, but Dark Magic does seem pretty solid, and gaining more lore access is a good thing. The magic items certainly have been brought back "in line". I put the "in line" in quotations because I really hate the whole army magic items being overall "meh" that seems to be the trend in 8th. Overall it has a lot of options, which is good. As a dark elf player, I hoped we would get more internal balance than certain armies have going for them (I'm looking at you, regular orcs and common goblins...) and it initially seems that I got my wish.

Shadow_Steed
05-10-2013, 18:01
Almost got shivers when I read the intro and first background! So awesome!

Haven't got through the rest of the book yet, but I love all the new models as well.

Iron_Lord
05-10-2013, 18:15
Not sure why the dark elves now have access to all the lores. It seems a little out of character for them to be using "light or life" or is it just me?

Light has Banishment. With the daemons regularly attacking them from the north (alongside Chaos Warriors) it's not that out of place for Dark Elves to be banishing them.

Beasts makes even more thematic sense (transforming into hydras or manticores with Transformation of Kadon).

Heavens has all the weather magic spells.

Life is a bit of an oddball choice for them- but it's good for healing stuff up among other things.

Scammel
05-10-2013, 18:16
I haven't got my book yet (for which I will forever curse GW), but my initial thoughts based on the rather expansive rumors are that the troops got better at killing things and less good at surviving. Magic got toned down in sheer ability to force it through, but Dark Magic does seem pretty solid, and gaining more lore access is a good thing. The magic items certainly have been brought back "in line". I put the "in line" in quotations because I really hate the whole army magic items being overall "meh" that seems to be the trend in 8th. Overall it has a lot of options, which is good. As a dark elf player, I hoped we would get more internal balance than certain armies have going for them (I'm looking at you, regular orcs and common goblins...) and it initially seems that I got my wish.

Spot on. Almost exactly my thoughts.

Voss
06-10-2013, 00:36
Light has Banishment. With the daemons regularly attacking them from the north (alongside Chaos Warriors) it's not that out of place for Dark Elves to be banishing them.

Beasts makes even more thematic sense (transforming into hydras or manticores with Transformation of Kadon).

Heavens has all the weather magic spells.

Life is a bit of an oddball choice for them- but it's good for healing stuff up among other things.
So you can torture them more, of course.

But really, they're still elves, with that whole legacy of knowledge. They didn't randomly forget useful things just because the society is cruel. Most armies magic is limited because they didn't have someone to teach them everything (Slann), or time to learn it from people who did (elves, who passed on the colour wheel to the Empire). Everyone else has had to scrabble for the basics, and its been heavily tinted by their society (orcs, skaven) or their tutors (bretonnia)

But their knack for dark magic gives the elves a predisposition to it, that is all. (plus there is some really good stuff in there, particularly word of pain and shroud of despair).

The bearded one
06-10-2013, 01:21
Life is a bit of an oddball choice for them- but it's good for healing stuff up among other things.

They probably use it to brighten up their gardens with thorns.

Iverald
06-10-2013, 01:39
The thing is, the winds can't be defined as good/evil, not even dhar which can only 'corrupt,' i.e. bring you closer to chaos, which still is not inherently evil.

DE use dhar, because it gives immense power in exchange for relatively small effort. High magic requires much more effort and time, so it presents little value to DE.
In the same vein, I can't see many users of hysh (light) and azyr (heavens) among the impatient and ambitious sorceresses.

sulla
06-10-2013, 02:15
My thoughts on the book;very exciting. There are a lot of smashface options for players who want to push big blocks at each other and roll (and re-roll) buckets of dice, but there are also lots of more subtle units like the bloodwrack or Kharibdyss where you are paying points for abilities you may not get any benefit from. I'm pretty happy because it looks like I can play a more indirect list and because I now have a much better toolbox for dealing with shooty monsters and shooty chariots that could bounce my old war machine hunters.

Wesser
06-10-2013, 08:56
We got a few games with them last night and:

- I don't get sisters. Apart from the fact that their main rule seems bit silly since they already have MP/ASF it's limited what reroll to hit/wound does for them. Likewise hand weapon and shield..Maybe time will tell..

- Monster Mash. 3 Hydras, 2 Kharybidiss and a High Beastmaster for 1100 pts before items/upgrades.. Well I got to see both monsters in action and I must say that while they aren't overpowered the fact that you can field 6 monsters for a fairly low Price irks me. For me I think it is one of those Things that aren't broken OP, but which you just really shouldn't do

- Repeater handbow for corsairs are terrifying. Effective range of 17 vs. 24 (with AP) for the same shots with repeater crossbows for cheaper Guys with better armour? Corsairs are terryfying...but an interesting option now.

- I still believe WE in core is the easily daftest idea in Warhammer, and yesterday showed me why. Even without the cauldron they pulled out absurb amounts of wounds. I guess the only good options against them are shoot them is the bait-and-flank or shooting them. Fighting them just don't seem like an option..

- Rerolling 1's to wound for executioners and Cold one knights end up as basically auto-wounding. The difference may not be great, but it helps making them too much math-hammer units.

- Sacrificial dagger is crazy as it basically allows you to roll less dice than you normally would, because you can normally use it to save yourself from those dice rolls that comes up one or two short. Again not broken, but alas every Dark elf list will have this....


Overall though DE comes off as a balanced book with fairly good internal balance, although some nasty stuff can be done, that's no difference from other armies.

Will it change my armies I asked myself?

Empire: State Troops more and more look like overpriced zombies for every new book, and againt dark elves infantry seems like easy points. Already knights were best.... now they seem better to the inclusion of everything else.

Vampire Counts: I always found Nightshroud and Corpse Cart great. I don't think I shall ever leave home without the latter Again. ASF is soooo common.....

Wesser
06-10-2013, 09:23
We got a few games with them last night and:

- I don't get sisters. Apart from the fact that their main rule seems bit silly since they already have MP/ASF it's limited what reroll to hit/wound does for them. Likewise hand weapon and shield..Maybe time will tell..

- Monster Mash. 3 Hydras, 2 Kharybidiss and a High Beastmaster for 1100 pts before items/upgrades.. Well I got to see both monsters in action and I must say that while they aren't overpowered the fact that you can field 6 monsters for a fairly low Price irks me. For me I think it is one of those Things that aren't broken OP, but which you just really shouldn't do

- Repeater handbow for corsairs are terrifying. Effective range of 17 vs. 24 (with AP) for the same shots with repeater crossbows for cheaper Guys with better armour? Corsairs are terryfying...but an interesting option now.

- I still believe WE in core is the easily daftest idea in Warhammer, and yesterday showed me why. Even without the cauldron they pulled out absurb amounts of wounds. I guess the only good options against them are shoot them is the bait-and-flank or shooting them. Fighting them just don't seem like an option..

- Rerolling 1's to wound for executioners and Cold one knights end up as basically auto-wounding. The difference may not be great, but it helps making them too much math-hammer units.

- Sacrificial dagger is crazy as it basically allows you to roll less dice than you normally would, because you can normally use it to save yourself from those dice rolls that comes up one or two short. Again not broken, but alas every Dark elf list will have this....


Overall though DE comes off as a balanced book with fairly good internal balance, although some nasty stuff can be done, that's no difference from other armies.

Will it change my armies I asked myself?

Empire: State Troops more and more look like overpriced zombies for every new book, and againt dark elves infantry seems like easy points. Already knights were best.... now they seem better to the inclusion of everything else.

Vampire Counts: I always found Nightshroud and Corpse Cart great. I don't think I shall ever leave home without the latter Again. ASF is soooo common.....

tiberius122
06-10-2013, 10:13
What's the deal with Harpies, now? Being able to fly is all they need to bring to the table, assuming they're not grossly overpriced.

To me the point is that, GW knows how AOW harpies miniatures are by far much better.

http://www.avatars-of-war.com/eng/web/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&prodcode=56&prodname=Dire+Harpy+of+the+Apocalypse&id=118&Itemid=115

As a result they do not even try to invest in developing nice harpies minis because they know they wonīt success (see how they have copied Raging Heroes Blood Vestals...)Their only short term solution is just worsen Harpies rules in order to break AOW sales...

just my opinion

nosebiter
06-10-2013, 10:19
To me the point is that, GW knows how AOW harpies miniatures are by far much better.

http://www.avatars-of-war.com/eng/web/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&prodcode=56&prodname=Dire+Harpy+of+the+Apocalypse&id=118&Itemid=115

As a result they do not even try to invest in developing nice harpies minis because they know they wonīt success (see how they have copied Raging Heroes Blood Vestals...)Their only short term solution is just worsen Harpies rules in order to break AOW sales...

just my opinion


Lol.

Just no. GW doesnt care about a teeny tiny manufacturer like AoW.

Most likely scenario is that harpies were not a priority for new rules, and that the author thought they were too cheap.

underscore
06-10-2013, 11:25
In terms of the minis, might* be that they're working on some kind of a kit which can work for Elves, Beastmen and Daemons.

* replace with 'I have a forlorn hope'

tiberius122
06-10-2013, 13:22
Lol.

Just no. GW doesnt care about a teeny tiny manufacturer like AoW.

Most likely scenario is that harpies were not a priority for new rules, and that the author thought they were too cheap.

Well, I think they actually do. They had a legal issue with the term "Space Marine". Remember also the legal problems they had with with Scibor...
I wonīt call AoW a "teeny tiny manufacturer", firtly for the respect I think they deserve, as people who are making up great minis...remember that Paniagua was hired by GW...
In the other hand many companies begun as a "teeny tiny manufacturers" before becaming thinks like Apple, Honda, or even Games Workshop...
Finally, at least as far as I know people is getting minis from Aow, as they are really nice and metal made.

Voss
06-10-2013, 19:59
To me the point is that, GW knows how AOW harpies miniatures are by far much better.

http://www.avatars-of-war.com/eng/web/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&prodcode=56&prodname=Dire+Harpy+of+the+Apocalypse&id=118&Itemid=115

As a result they do not even try to invest in developing nice harpies minis because they know they wonīt success (see how they have copied Raging Heroes Blood Vestals...)Their only short term solution is just worsen Harpies rules in order to break AOW sales...

just my opinion
That... makes no sense, sorry. GW has a limit on the new kits they produce per month, and harpies were so far down the list it isn't funny.

As for copying the 'blood vestals,' I... lack the adequate words. They're are solely and completely a witch elf knock-off, based on witch elf models 2 generations past, right down to the high heels.



@wesser - on the corsairs vs darkshards; repeater crossbows aren't move or fire, so their effective range can go up to 29". Both corsairs and darkshards are horribly inaccurate with move, long range and multishot penalties, however, so it isn't a great idea with either.

Wesser
06-10-2013, 20:29
@wesser - on the corsairs vs darkshards; repeater crossbows aren't move or fire, so their effective range can go up to 29". Both corsairs and darkshards are horribly inaccurate with move, long range and multishot penalties, however, so it isn't a great idea with either.

I'm well aware of the fact that Repeater crossbows bizarrely are move-and-fire, but they get -1 for moving which Corsairs don't which is why I amde 17' vs 24' comparison as that their equal to hit chance.

The differences are that darkshards can hit up to 29' away and with armour piercing whereas Corsairs can always stand-and-shoot, are more flexible shots (about-turn and fire with no penalty) and got a better save

Seems about equal to me... oh but Corsairs are 2 pts. cheaper. Then Again the Armour Piercing is sweet against cavalry, but a 30-man Corsair horde is pretty damn scary.

DE got a lot of scary stuff in core.... In fact the core section is a lot more scary than the special or rare sections despite the abundance of STR3

tiberius122
06-10-2013, 21:12
[QUOTE=Voss;6943441]That... makes no sense, sorry. GW has a limit on the new kits they produce per month, and harpies were so far down the list it isn't funny.

As for copying the 'blood vestals,' I... lack the adequate words. They're are solely and completely a witch elf knock-off, based on witch elf models 2 generations past, right down to the high heels.

With all respects, It might not make sense to you...thatīs ok but... There is no fixed number of new kits as far as I know...you might have better info. Can be checked.
Regarding the blood Vestals, you do not like them, fair enough... many people are getting those as I did, rather than buying the new plastic witches...In the other hand you can check the bodies positions, are almost the same.
All this is off topic...
as I said...just my opinion :)

The bearded one
07-10-2013, 02:24
My initial thoughts on dark elves are that their core selections are pretty damned ace. Even their basic spear and swordsmen have rerolls to hit and wound. I was always enamoured with big chunky masses of spearelves, and the new regimented easy to assemble pikes look great in massed formations. If I were to go with a dark elf army at this point I think I'd max out on lots of spear elves and crossbows, a couple smaller blocks of witch elves and corsairs, and a bunch of reaper bolt throwers to back them up. A horde-style dark elf army.

Jind_Singh
07-10-2013, 05:58
It's a bloody solid book is what it is - almost to the point of tears!

Magic items - thy have a number of items tht scare me - and are worth taking

Magic lore - it's good for dealing out a LOT of damage, the hexes are nasty and will allow even rank and file DE to hold their own vs elite enemy infantry

Army wide rules are solid - especially rerolling 1s to wound

The new monsters are solid for their price

New units are again decent but some more than others

Points costs are again well balanced

Now why did not the Ward put this much effort into Daemons of Chaos!

I actually think this is one of the better books of 8th I've seen by a fair margin - and while its not broken its not fixed either - meaning that we shall be seeing some pain inflicted on us by many a dark elf player in the conning years!

Yowzo
07-10-2013, 07:03
Why do Dark riders have shields, light armour and still retain fast cav status? Yet Chaos horsemen and HE Reavers cav can't?

If something as lowly as goblin wolf riders can, why not?

I am sad to see gobbos losing their status as the only 4+ AS fast cav, but these things happen.

How do dark riders compare to reavers points-wise, though?

eldargal
07-10-2013, 07:10
To me the point is that, GW knows how AOW harpies miniatures are by far much better.

http://www.avatars-of-war.com/eng/web/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&prodcode=56&prodname=Dire+Harpy+of+the+Apocalypse&id=118&Itemid=115

As a result they do not even try to invest in developing nice harpies minis because they know they wonīt success (see how they have copied Raging Heroes Blood Vestals...)Their only short term solution is just worsen Harpies rules in order to break AOW sales...

just my opinion
Firstly, as mentioned GW don't pay much attention to smaller producers. Second, the new Witch Elves are based on GW art dating back before Raging Heroes existed. Third while the AoW harpies may be better than GWs harpies they are still not particularly impressive in my opinion. Not enough to threaten GW if they ever produced a nice plastic kit. Not to mention you can get 5 GW harpies for the price of two AoW harpies which isn't exactly competitive, unless there is a discounted box I can't find.


I've only had a quick look at the rules section of a friends book but I'm really, really impressed.

Urgat
07-10-2013, 07:43
as I said...just my opinion :)
Clearly. Those harpies are nothing to write home about, they're not cheaper, and they so stink of "we've copied Warhammer" that they even show signs of AOW getting the Skull Overload Syndrome. I used to really like AOW, but they got zero creativity, and they seem to not be up to the task anyway as a company. Been hearing tons about undelivered warriors of chaos and a certain dwarf BSB. I doubt GW fears a company that can't even send the minis they're selling.

tiberius122
07-10-2013, 14:27
Firstly, as mentioned GW don't pay much attention to smaller producers. Second, the new Witch Elves are based on GW art dating back before Raging Heroes existed. Third while the AoW harpies may be better than GWs harpies they are still not particularly impressive in my opinion. Not enough to threaten GW if they ever produced a nice plastic kit. Not to mention you can get 5 GW harpies for the price of two AoW harpies which isn't exactly competitive, unless there is a discounted box I can't find.


I've only had a quick look at the rules section of a friends book but I'm really, really impressed.

Firstly, as mentioned GW don't pay much attention to smaller producers.

Well I bet they do, read above(Space Marine term issue, legal problems with Scibor...)it sometimes looks like they invest more in lawers tahn in game development :)

Second, the new Witch Elves are based on GW art dating back before Raging Heroes existed

I haven't notice, Still said before is just a question of personal choice, I prefer Raging Heroes ones...as many people

Third while the AoW harpies may be better than GWs harpies they are still not particularly impressive in my opinion. Not enough to threaten GW if they ever produced a nice plastic kit. Not to mention you can get 5 GW harpies for the price of two AoW harpies which isn't exactly competitive, unless there is a discounted box I can't find.

Again, I prefer those ones, they are more realistic to me, and u probably missed the 5 harpies blister from AoW, already OOP

Cheers :)

tiberius122
07-10-2013, 14:31
Clearly. Those harpies are nothing to write home about, they're not cheaper, and they so stink of "we've copied Warhammer" that they even show signs of AOW getting the Skull Overload Syndrome. I used to really like AOW, but they got zero creativity, and they seem to not be up to the task anyway as a company. Been hearing tons about undelivered warriors of chaos and a certain dwarf BSB. I doubt GW fears a company that can't even send the minis they're selling.


I agree with u, they're terribly slow shipping minis :)...I never said GW fears, please do not put those words in my mouth, they just keep an eye to any other company..
As said, u missed the 5 harpies blister wich as cheaper than the GW ones

;)

tiberius122
07-10-2013, 15:31
I agree with u, they're terribly slow shipping minis :)...I never said GW fears, please do not put those words in my mouth, they just keep an eye to any other company..
As said, u missed the 5 harpies blister wich as cheaper than the GW ones

;)

As all these comments about the minis and companies policies are off topic and people deserves respect in the forum I created a new threat here so we can talk about ,which in the other hand is always really interesting, :)

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?382414-What-DE-minis-do-u-prefer-for-making-up-a-new-army-GW-AoW-Ragin-a-mix-of-several

cheers! :)

Voss
07-10-2013, 18:17
That... makes no sense, sorry. GW has a limit on the new kits they produce per month, and harpies were so far down the list it isn't funny.

As for copying the 'blood vestals,' I... lack the adequate words. They're are solely and completely a witch elf knock-off, based on witch elf models 2 generations past, right down to the high heels.

With all respects, It might not make sense to you...thatīs ok but... There is no fixed number of new kits as far as I know...you might have better info. Can be checked.
Regarding the blood Vestals, you do not like them, fair enough... many people are getting those as I did, rather than buying the new plastic witches...In the other hand you can check the bodies positions, are almost the same.

I didn't say anything about not liking them (though I don't, because they're knock offs of witch elf models I actually own from 10 odd years ago). I said the claim that the new witch elves are copies of the 'blood vestals' is ridiculous, because the 'blood vestals' are copies of GW witch elves from several editions back.

As for the number of new kits. No, it isn't fixed, it is limited. They have a maximum limit on their production, which is why month after month, the number of releases is roughly the same.

Jind_Singh
07-10-2013, 18:17
I read the book again - it's just so solid!

Witches are really good -especially with a hero level witch granting a fear test at -3 - a lot of armies will be failing that fear test and being reduced to WS1. The Cauldron is a power house, it's not that anything in the book is pure over the top - just really good rule-sets all over the place - this is a top tier book for sure - on par with WOC and OK for sure.

Squiiiiig
07-10-2013, 18:39
Am I right assuming the executioners just fight at I5 as they have ASF and ASL? How does the rereoll from the ASF work in this case? do you still get it as technically you still are using the ASF, its just countered by the ASL rule.
the book as a whole seems to be pretty strong, Cant really see a weakness, hope that doesnt mean its another Matt Ward disaster army

kylek2235
07-10-2013, 19:21
Looks weaker than the last Dark Elf Book. Ward kicked out the crutches of Hydra, Cauldron, Chuck and "i can use all the dice in the world to cast Okkam's."

There's a strong monster mash element to the army. The past three of four books have followed that trend and even the high elves can play that style of game if one so desires. I love the new Hydra rules.

Like people have said before, the Core section is strong, but there's a down side. Although characters got cheaper, units generally got more expensive. I'm not sure the added killing power offsets the decrease in model count.

GW introducing an entirely new rare section was pretty bold. I didn't see that coming.

The fluff and new miniatures are top notch.

Overall, I like it. I think the army will play very differently from the 7th ed DE, which played very different from the 6th ed DE, which played very different from the 4th/5th ed DE..... Ah, the cycle continues

IcedCrow
07-10-2013, 19:25
Am I right assuming the executioners just fight at I5 as they have ASF and ASL? How does the rereoll from the ASF work in this case? do you still get it as technically you still are using the ASF, its just countered by the ASL rule.
the book as a whole seems to be pretty strong, Cant really see a weakness, hope that doesnt mean its another Matt Ward disaster army

ASF and ASL cancel out so you go by init. They don't get a re-roll to hit in that case. So they are I5 great weapon wielding troop striking at S5 with killing blow. Pretty cool. Sword masters get 2A instead of 1, but executioners get the killing blow.

tiberius122
07-10-2013, 19:35
I didn't say anything about not liking them (though I don't, because they're knock offs of witch elf models I actually own from 10 odd years ago). I said the claim that the new witch elves are copies of the 'blood vestals' is ridiculous, because the 'blood vestals' are copies of GW witch elves from several editions back.

As for the number of new kits. No, it isn't fixed, it is limited. They have a maximum limit on their production, which is why month after month, the number of releases is roughly the same.

Sorry, no offence, really. Firstly you should consider that the ownership/copyrights of a model or a design is from a legal point of view the company.To me , and from an ethic point of view is from the designer itself who did the mini in the first place. After saying that, apart of who copied before have a look carefully to the Vestals and the New Witches(which I still like), they are almost the same...bodies, weapons and even the "helmet".
You said that Raging copied before...sorry, I do not agree. If you refer to 3rd edition witches (which by the way are ugly to me) there is no similarity, apart from a head, two arms,two legs and a base. In the global world we live in everyone copies the others, even GW...Am not saying Raging never copied other company...please do not missundertand me.

If u wanna speak longer about old models, cool..I opened a threat just for that and will be a pleasure, but we're completely off topic know...people wants to speak about the book for sure

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?382414-What-DE-minis-do-u-prefer-for-making-up-a-new-army-GW-AoW-Ragin-a-mix-of-several

cheers :)

Squiiiiig
07-10-2013, 19:51
Looks weaker than the last Dark Elf Book. Ward kicked out the crutches of Hydra, Cauldron, Chuck and "i can use all the dice in the world to cast Okkam's."



Shades still seem to be a problem though, especially as they now stike at I5 with great weapons. Looks like an army that needs a proper look at

RanaldLoec
07-10-2013, 19:56
Ok my issue with dark elves

The magic lore

Holy moly the spells good I mean really good.

Combined with all the leadership reductions available to the army the spells are relatively cheap and devastating.

Hex, For 9+ you can minus d3 off we and bs. For 12+ you can minus off d3 from ws, bs, s and t.

Say whaaaaaaat!

Direct damage, every model takes a ws check fail it's st4 armour piercing hit.

Hex, unit within 12" can't use inspiring presence or hold your ground, fail a pd test it's also -1 to ld which is cumulative with it self till next casters magic phase.

The Cauldron of blood giving all friendly units within 6" that have the murderous prowess rule reroll to wound.

Unless errata'd that could make facing multiple repeater throwers very painful heck we may see missile unit gunlines return.

The hydra is still fairly nasty if anything it's new variation of 40k's it will not die is good, it gets 8 attacks if unwounded and cost has dropped.

There are quite a few nasty ld bomb combos that are horrible.

It's going to be a top book at tournaments with out any doubt.

kylek2235
07-10-2013, 19:57
Shades still seem to be a problem though, especially as they now stike at I5 with great weapons. Looks like an army that needs a proper look at

I did notice that and it made me sad to see their return. Maybe they'll get lost in the abundance of choice?

Well put. It does look like an army that needs a proper look at!:)

shinankoku
07-10-2013, 21:04
Ok, you know what I really noticed the first time I read the new book? I HATE the Hydra Blade at 100 points. And I LOVE the Chillblade at 50. I would like the former more if you could actively choose loosing between the -5 WS and KB vs not. That whole 'make a leadership test' thing is just plain dumb.

ewar
07-10-2013, 21:31
I think some interesting side effects of the new book might be to tip the meta back towards BS based shooting a little more and actually make people consider taking magic resistance on units. Regular shooting units can make a lot of points out of witch elves or executioners - losing the ability to switch the ward save is quite big.

The amount of direct damage spells in Dark and High magic will also make MR3 more useful - I know I'm definitely considering adding it to some of my units now that there are more '4D6' damage spells. Also, blade wind is a great spell - it'll be just brutal on big blocks of weak troops (I know my TK skellies are going to get absolutely thrashed by it... 50 WS2 tests or suffer S4 hits? Ouch...)

GrandmasterWang
08-10-2013, 07:22
I see the shades with great weapons as a nod to the manflayers.

glad that tullaris and kouran are finally heroes.

I bought the khar monster kit yesterday. Its rules are incredibly strong for the points. Just compare it to the more expensive varghulf for example.

Hydra wasn't really nerfed at all as gw want to pimp their new kit. Storm of magic hydra rules/points were balanced. These are not. Still rule/pointswise its a pretty even choice between the hydra and k monster.

Like what has been done with the core!

This is a powerful book no doubt!

Is it just me or do the elf monsters crap all over the other 8th edition monsters?

Executioners which I used to field 2 units of 10 with full command (really happy with the look of the units, had to use them)... are now pretty flicking good!! I expect my units of 10 to do more than just look boss now... all for no points increase. Huge! Striking at initiative makes sense for these guys. Shame bout the new models.... I wont be getting any more.

Black guard - love it! No more unit size restrictions (gw pimping the new kit) and they are now truly elite and a great rival for the Phoenix guard.

Plastic executioners are no match for the old metals however when built as BG there is massive potential.

Crone!!! Finally a model and what a beast!! Even a bloodthirster should be fearful of this maiden. Yowsers what damage potential!!

Shadow blade finally has a worthy model and the rules/ points are better for the 2nd best assassin I warhammer.

No obvious Ward fail like the high elf banner... this is good.

Fun times!

Rakariel
08-10-2013, 07:35
The Cauldron of blood giving all friendly units within 6" that have the murderous prowess rule reroll to wound.
Unless errata'd that could make facing multiple repeater throwers very painful heck we may see missile unit gunlines return.
I don`t know if I get your meaning right but MP does not work on shooting.

Wesser
08-10-2013, 08:59
I don`t know if I get your meaning right but MP does not work on shooting.

The Cauldron allows units with the Murderous Prowess rule within 6' to re-roll all to wound rolls.

It doesn't say close combat attacks, so RAW you can reroll wounds from spells and shooting as well. This is likely to turn out to be absurd beyond reason, so just based on that alone my finger hovers over the "OP" button

Rakariel
08-10-2013, 09:21
Cheers for the heads up. I didn`t think about this being possible due to kinda being, well pretty strong thats why I didn`t give it a closer look. They might FAQ this.

Wesser
08-10-2013, 09:52
Cheers for the heads up. I didn`t think about this being possible due to kinda being, well pretty strong thats why I didn`t give it a closer look. They might FAQ this.

Maybe. FAQS usually don't turn up for 6 months, and usually it doesn't clarify the issues people actually have.

It tends to be: "Can a Sorceress ride a Black Dragon", "Can a Sorceress sacrifice herself with the dagger" and such...

Rakariel
08-10-2013, 10:09
Maybe. FAQS usually don't turn up for 6 months, and usually it doesn't clarify the issues people actually have.It tends to be: "Can a Sorceress ride a Black Dragon", "Can a Sorceress sacrifice herself with the dagger" and such...
Well in this case its a bit ambiguous. MP says "reroll to wound rolls of 1 in close combat" if the cauldrons ability therefore lets units with MP reroll all to wound rolls I would asume its not only models with MP but also in relation to MP aswell. Atleast I think so. But you are right of course, its not written like that so could be the other way round aswell.

Romark
08-10-2013, 10:41
Well in this case its a bit ambiguous. MP says "reroll to wound rolls of 1 in close combat" if the cauldrons ability therefore lets units with MP reroll all to wound rolls I would asume its not only models with MP but also in relation to MP aswell. Atleast I think so. But you are right of course, its not written like that so could be the other way round aswell.

I think in this case you have to go off the MP Special Rule, so re-roll CC only. Otherwise you would just sit your Supreme Sorceress within 6" of a CoB and get re-rolls on Doombolt/Fireball/Searing Doom/other "#D6 Hit's" spells. Nevermind putting RBT's there.

Wesser
08-10-2013, 10:48
I think in this case you have to go off the MP Special Rule, so re-roll CC only. Otherwise you would just sit your Supreme Sorceress within 6" of a CoB and get re-rolls on Doombolt/Fireball/Searing Doom/other "#D6 Hit's" spells. Nevermind putting RBT's there.

Indeed, but the argument could just as easily be made that the reference to Murderous Prowess is just to exclude allies and monsters.

RAW people are allowed to do exactly what you suggest there....


Indeed it gets worse. The wording of "models". Since a mounted model like cold one knights or manticore rider is one model, and at least the rider have MP, it's easy to argue that any mounts should be allowed the rerolls too.. indeed it could be argued that it affects chariot impact hits as well..

Rakariel
08-10-2013, 11:18
I was wondering about Cold Ones in this regard. The unit entry says ASF (Rider only) and Hatred High Elves (Rider only) but under MP there is no bracket. Does that mean the Cold One (Chariot and Knight ones) has MP aswell? Same goes for the Horses of Dark Riders and the Scroungerunner.

Lord Solar Plexus
08-10-2013, 11:39
Sounds like a hard-as-nails book and a rough awakening for the other factions. 14 S5 magic missile attacks every round, all stats down to 1 for next to no PD, hordes of Elves autowounding, better cheaper more monsters, possibly efficient gunlines...sounds pretty scary.

Wesser
08-10-2013, 12:04
I was wondering about Cold Ones in this regard. The unit entry says ASF (Rider only) and Hatred High Elves (Rider only) but under MP there is no bracket. Does that mean the Cold One (Chariot and Knight ones) has MP aswell? Same goes for the Horses of Dark Riders and the Scroungerunner.

Well that alone is clear. Under Murderous prowess it says "not their mounts". So no...

It's just the Cauldron trolling us for now :)

Rakariel
08-10-2013, 12:06
Ah thanks again Wesser. Really need my own book, so much oversight if you only reading someone elses AB ;)

Sotek
09-10-2013, 02:39
Just had a look at points costs and rules of new book. Hydra and CoB seem OP.

sulla
09-10-2013, 04:17
Just had a look at points costs and rules of new book. Hydra and CoB seem OP.because...? Cauldron looks expensive because it takes up half your hero allowance, stopping you fielding fun units like manticore masters, dual pegasus riders or even multiple lvl2s to take advantage of all the new lores.

Hydra looks perfectly priced considering it's rules don't synergise well; Ld6 beast that has attacks based on wounds and doesn't regain wounds until the end of the turn. So; hits a heavy hitter unit, loses wounds and thus attacks, then tests on puny Ld... I suppose you could keep them close to the general, or only attack low strength opponents, but you could probably take knights, elite infantry of even witches to do the same job.

Hydras role looks to me to be pests now, lurking around frightening off light flankers and threatening to unleash a breath weapon along the flanks of infantry blocks. Pricing looks ok for that role, but there is other stuff that suits the DE army's needs more.

Litcheur
09-10-2013, 12:58
Personally, I'm pretty pleased with it (which is why I'm up at 3am with the iBooks version). There is a lot to like, and not much jumping out at me as bad.

Honestly, it sucks.



Dark Elves are high elves, except they're better in every aspect. ASF with high initiative, murderous prowess...
Dark Elves having access to jade and white magic. Yes, sure.
Hellebron. Welcome back to Herohammer. ASF with I9, murderous prowess with S10. On 5+2+D3 attacks.
The Medusa.


Turning things to stones was so old-school, and old-school sounds like uncool. You have to make things bleed to death instead.
It's more... cinematic ? That's the word we use instead of stupid, IIRC. :D

Why is it stupid ? Because half of the low-init armies are fething undead. You're gonna make mummies and wraiths bleed to death ? :wtf:

Oh, wait, that's supposed to work just like poisonned weapons : they always bring a spare anti-undead medusa, just in case. That one will definitely NOT turn things to stone (because it's so uncool) and just make undead really really dead.

Rakariel
09-10-2013, 13:17
Dark Elves having access to jade and white magic. Yes, sure.


And HE have access to Death and Shadow magic. Yes, sure (according to your logic).
I am not sure why it is so hard to understand that Dark Elves actually want to use Light Magic to banish Daemons more effectively (who are in fact threatening their borders constantly) or use Life Magic to keep their numerous creatures alive longer so they can kill more enemies? Someone who is a double dealing bastard has less scruple using all the tools available to him than someone who is honorable, therefore it should be rather asked why HE use Death Magic than DE using Light or Life.

IcedCrow
09-10-2013, 13:27
All elves should know all of the basic magic lores. I see no problem with dark elves having access to light and life magic just like i have no problem with high elves using death and shadow magic.

The volume of whining seems to increase with every release. I'm surprised people even play this game anymore, you'd expect it to be so horrible that it be virtually unplayable when you read internet forums.

Rake
09-10-2013, 13:30
I've got to admit I don't get the excitement over a number of new points:

A) Warlocks and Doombolt: Are we aware that for warlocks to cast doombolt reliably they need to use 4 dice? For 4 dice my sorceress can cast Occams (she might have to dagger) or -d3 Strength or Toughness.
B) Dark Elf Lore: The lore is good. It is better than most. But it will still not see play over Shadow on the level 4 in serious games. It has 1 amazing debuff. Block that and its a buffed Lore of Fire. Meh. I would rather have 3 hexes, occams and pit.
C) Black Guard: Would you field Phoenix Guard without the 4+ Ward? Cause god knows I would not. Stubborn is nice, but in the age of steadfast it is only a reform away.
D) Kouran: Giving Unbreakable to a unit that is already ItP, Stubborn and LD9 is such stupid overkill as to merit a new prize. Why spend 150+pts like that?
E) Tullaris: Dies if you sneeze at him.
F) Kharybdis: Another monster without a ward save. Ok. Go line up next to all the others over there. You might someday see play in a fluff roster. Why are we pretending this one is different? The cool model? Somebody tried to compare it to a Varghulf. Yeah. Lets forget the hatred, lets forget the Hunger wound regain (after thunderstomp it actually is a serious factor) lets forget the 2 more points of movement and above all lets forget the REGENERATE. Short of those two factors they are comparable... Really.

I am not saying it is a bad roster. I am saing get excited about the good things in the book:
Warlocks and SOULBLIGHT
Spammable S6 infantry with WS5 I5
CORSAIRS with 12" handbows and 4+ AS!
Dagger didnt go away! It just got more expensive.
Hags with 6-8 S6 attacks that reroll to hit and wound.
You know, stuff like that...

eldargal
09-10-2013, 13:35
Honestly, it sucks.



Dark Elves are high elves, except they're better in every aspect. ASF with high initiative, murderous prowess...
Dark Elves having access to jade and white magic. Yes, sure.
Hellebron. Welcome back to Herohammer. ASF with I9, murderous prowess with S10. On 5+2+D3 attacks.
The Medusa.


Turning things to stones was so old-school, and old-school sounds like uncool. You have to make things bleed to death instead.
It's more... cinematic ? That's the word we use instead of stupid, IIRC. :D

Why is it stupid ? Because half of the low-init armies are fething undead. You're gonna make mummies and wraiths bleed to death ? :wtf:

Oh, wait, that's supposed to work just like poisonned weapons : they always bring a spare anti-undead medusa, just in case. That one will definitely NOT turn things to stone (because it's so uncool) and just make undead really really dead.
Yes, Dark Elves are High Elves. Naggaroth is the Evil Twin of Ulthuan, a twisted reflection. It absolutely makes sense for them to mirror each other in some ways. That Dark Elves are better in some ways is also to be expected, to claim they are a superior book is simply presumption at this stage. The high Elf book is very well balanced.
You do know how magic works, right? Poor stupid humans can only master one type, Elves can master ALL of them. The notion that Dark Elves, because they are a bit evil, would suddenly lose that capacity would be offensive.
She's expensive and relatively fragile.
'The Medusa' isn't a criticism, it is a statement.

Turning to stone is old school yes, it's thousands of years old school. It's boring. Having a medusa that causes every blood vessel in a victims body to rupture is a new take on it and far from stupid. Who is to say it doesn't affect undead in a different way? It's magic afterall, not some kind of radiation or natural effect. I mean really, turning stuff to stone is sensible but magically making them explode into a cloud of gore or whatever is just stupid? right.

Rakariel
09-10-2013, 13:37
I've got to admit I don't get the excitement over a number of new points:

A) Warlocks and Doombolt: Are we aware that for warlocks to cast doombolt reliably they need to use 4 dice? For 4 dice my sorceress can cast Occams (she might have to dagger) or -d3 Strength or Toughness.
B) Dark Elf Lore: The lore is good. It is better than most. But it will still not see play over Shadow on the level 4 in serious games. It has 1 amazing debuff. Block that and its a buffed Lore of Fire. Meh. I would rather have 3 hexes, occams and pit.
C) Black Guard: Would you field Phoenix Guard without the 4+ Ward? Cause god knows I would not. Stubborn is nice, but in the age of steadfast it is only a reform away.
D) Kouran: Giving Unbreakable to a unit that is already ItP, Stubborn and LD9 is such stupid overkill as to merit a new prize. Why spend 150+pts like that?
E) Tullaris: Dies if you sneeze at him.
F) Kharybdis: Another monster without a ward save. Ok. Go line up next to all the others over there. You might someday see play in a fluff roster. Why are we pretending this one is different? The cool model? Somebody tried to compare it to a Varghulf. Yeah. Lets forget the hatred, lets forget the Hunger wound regain (after thunderstomp it actually is a serious factor) lets forget the 2 more points of movement and above all lets forget the REGENERATE. Short of those two factors they are comparable... Really.

I am not saying it is a bad roster. I am saing get excited about the good things in the book:
Warlocks and SOULBLIGHT
Spammable S6 infantry with WS5 I5
CORSAIRS with 12" handbows and 4+ AS!
Dagger didnt go away! It just got more expensive.
Hags with 6-8 S6 attacks that reroll to hit and wound.
You know, stuff like that...

Because maybe some people get excited that there is a new book that seems well balanced internally with alot of viable options. Not all of us just look at hardcore builds ;)

@IcedCrow Agreeing that all Elves should know all the basic lores.

Rake
09-10-2013, 14:35
Never got that from the posts. Overall I have to admit i was pleasantly surprised by the fluff. It got Hollywoodized quite a bit (to be expected) but still works and they added some nice bits. I think the book is OK, but still has a lot of work before I can believe GW knows their own game well enough to design a book. Their target audience probably; their game? No way.

Litcheur
09-10-2013, 14:45
You do know how magic works, right? Poor stupid humans can only master one type, Elves can master ALL of them. The notion that Dark Elves, because they are a bit evil, would suddenly lose that capacity would be offensive.
No. Just. No.

WHFB already has serious balance and codex creep issues. Allowing more combos because "why shouldn't they master [insert stuff here] " is just wrong.

I mean, some of these combos are so obvious you won't have to wait a couple months to see them on the tables.

Pack Hellebron, and a cauldron in a witch elf death star. Don't forget to cast Flesh to Stone.
ASF + High Init + Murderous Prowess (on S10 for Helle) + Frenzy + Witch Brew + Poison + Bonus to dispel + Toughness 7. :wtf:

eldargal
09-10-2013, 15:04
You do know how magic works, right?


No. Just. No.

Yep.

Hellebron+CoB+40 Witch Elves +Command+BareLV3 Sorceress=1115pts.

At that price it should damn well kill All The Things. Not to mention requiring 3000pts battle to be fielded in, less if you go with a LV2 sorceress and hope you get the right spell.

jeffzcubfan
09-10-2013, 15:07
Maybe its just me but like a werewolf and silver an evil character attempting white magic should get a good bit of damage. Their is just too tainted too make it possible IMHO.

Jeff

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I777 using Tapatalk 2

IcedCrow
09-10-2013, 15:37
That assumes that "white magic" has morality in warhammer. To my knowledge and everything I have ever read, the magic in warhammer has no morality. It is a strand of a piece of a whole. Light magic is not morally good that burns something morally bad.

Just like high elves don't get burned when using shadow magic and death magic.

Dark and High magic are concentrated forms of all of the warhammer magic "colors"

Rakariel
09-10-2013, 15:42
Maybe its just me but like a werewolf and silver an evil character attempting white magic should get a good bit of damage. Their is just too tainted too make it possible IMHO.
Jeff


Does that mean every human wizard is purehearted? :rolleyes:

Iverald
09-10-2013, 19:56
Magic is chaos and chaos is magic, the unlimited potential flowing through the world form the warp.
The warp is shaped by emotions of sentient beings and so are the winds of magic

Hysh (light) is nothing more than a representation of light (duh) it's ephemeral, it's extremely fast (hence Birona's Timewarp) it obliterates the horrors of the night (increased damage vs. undead and daemons) but it can also blind you or even burn you. If you are able to bend it to your will, it doesn't matter whether you turn it to do "good" deeds or "evil".

If people are questioning Dark Elves using Light, then what about Tomb Kings? They are effectively using magic that is their antithesis. :rolleyes:

theJ
09-10-2013, 20:05
Maybe its just me but like a werewolf and silver an evil character attempting white magic should get a good bit of damage. Their is just too tainted too make it possible IMHO.

Jeff

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I777 using Tapatalk 2

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LightIsNotGood

peukestas
09-10-2013, 20:34
I was wondering about Cold Ones in this regard. The unit entry says ASF (Rider only) and Hatred High Elves (Rider only) but under MP there is no bracket. Does that mean the Cold One (Chariot and Knight ones) has MP aswell? Same goes for the Horses of Dark Riders and the Scroungerunner.

The stats and special rules of the Cold Ones and Dark Steeds are mentioned in the "Mounts" section under the Lords. They do not have Murderous Prowess.

Voss
09-10-2013, 21:04
Moreover, they don't have murderous prowess because the rules for MP specifically state 'not mounts.'

Kakapo42
09-10-2013, 21:18
In regards to magic access, my thinking has always been that it wasn't a case of the Dark Elves not being able to use Light and Life, but rather them choosing not to. The way I imagine it, High Elf mages would take a very balanced approach to magical lore, encouraging the study of all the 'mainstream' lores and High magic, but not Dark magic since that really is evil and corrupting. Dark Elf sorceresses meanwhile I imagine would instead throw balance out the window and focus their knowledge and prowess on all out attack, which would leave no room for comparatively more benign lores like life or light.

At any rate I think we're all going to have to agree to disagree on the whole magic lore debate. Some folks want to see Dark Elf magic be 'evil' and destructive, others want general access to everything, and neither side is going to budge.

Yowzo
09-10-2013, 21:22
If people are questioning Dark Elves using Light, then what about Tomb Kings? They are effectively using magic that is their antithesis. :rolleyes:

Because Tomb Kings aren't undead by choice and their main deity is the sun god Ptra.

Voss
09-10-2013, 21:28
At any rate I think we're all going to have to agree to disagree on the whole magic lore debate. Some folks want to see Dark Elf magic be 'evil' and destructive, others want general access to everything, and neither side is going to budge.
Largely because background-wise, it doesn't make much sense. If some of the 8 lores were more 'evil and destructive' the High Elves certainly wouldn't have taught them to humans. They taught them everything, except high magic, either because they wanted to hold something back, or it was too advanced for the monkeys. Everything else was apparently equal in their eyes.

Urgat
09-10-2013, 21:32
Maybe its just me but like a werewolf and silver an evil character attempting white magic should get a good bit of damage. Their is just too tainted too make it possible IMHO.

Jeff

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I777 using Tapatalk 2
Why? Is white magic inherently good or something? It's magic, it comes from chaos, it's bad. There's no reason for magic restrictions based on alignement that is supported by fluff. An elf's an elf, regardless of if he's evil or not. I'm sure there's bloody nasty HE wizards that enjoy frying cats and birds when bored, and they too can use white magic.

Tupinamba
09-10-2013, 21:34
All elves should know all of the basic magic lores. I see no problem with dark elves having access to light and life magic just like i have no problem with high elves using death and shadow magic.

The volume of whining seems to increase with every release. I'm surprised people even play this game anymore, you'd expect it to be so horrible that it be virtually unplayable when you read internet forums.

Thatīs so true. :(

Iīm liking the book a lot. And honestly canīt understand how HE players can find it so much stronger. Iīm actually quite amazed at how balanced it is, how much better the fluff has become (considering Ward as main author) and how much variety it has.

IcedCrow
09-10-2013, 21:38
Perhaps its a form of puffing up ones own mad skills by trying to pass off that ones list is garbage so that winning with it seems like a great thing.

Shadeseraph
09-10-2013, 23:23
At any rate I think we're all going to have to agree to disagree on the whole magic lore debate. Some folks want to see Dark Elf magic be 'evil' and destructive, others want general access to everything, and neither side is going to budge.

No, I just want DE to be worse than HE at magic. And everything else, for that matter :P. I mean, they are just dirty druchii.

Forse
09-10-2013, 23:52
I think it's good that all magic lores are available to the druchii. It makes both the Dark Elves and the winds of magic less polarized in terms of good-evil. It makes the world a bit more grey-scale, which is good IMO. Sure, the DE may have wacky rulers and a wacky culture. But at the end of the day they are just elves using the same magic as their cousins on Ulthuan.

Ramius4
10-10-2013, 00:44
Largely because background-wise, it doesn't make much sense. If some of the 8 lores were more 'evil and destructive' the High Elves certainly wouldn't have taught them to humans. They taught them everything, except high magic, either because they wanted to hold something back, or it was too advanced for the monkeys. Everything else was apparently equal in their eyes.

This has always been my take on it too. In some fluff (depending on the edition), High Magic was just a bit too advanced for the 'younger' races to learn. The Elves originally learned it from the Slaan if you go back to the 5th ed fluff.

Drasanil
10-10-2013, 01:42
No, I just want DE to be worse than HE at magic. And everything else, for that matter :P. I mean, they are just dirty druchii.

Too bad Asur are descended from the weak-blooded elves who wouldn't know holding a sword by the sharp end is bad were it not for Aenarion telling them otherwise:D

Shadeseraph
10-10-2013, 02:12
Too bad Asur are descended from the weak-blooded elves who wouldn't know holding a sword by the sharp end is bad were it not for Aenarion telling them otherwise:D

At least we don't follow the words of a mother-complex little crybaby who couldn't accept the fact Asuryan though he was too much of a douche, which, call me cynic, kinda makes sense given what he did to Bel Shanaar, the guy he himself had accepted as his rightful king. How is he taking that his mother is more interested on Tyrion than on him, mmm?
And something tells me that dealing with slaanesh on a daily basis isn't exactly healthy, either.
Well, I'm quite sure it's that "evil is cool, evil is sexy" phase. Teenagers, pretty much.

Drasanil
10-10-2013, 02:45
At least we don't follow the words of a mother-complex little crybaby who couldn't accept the fact Asuryan though he was too much of a douche, which, call me cynic, kinda makes sense given what he did to Bel Shanaar, the guy he himself had accepted as his rightful king.

Funny thing, only two elves in history survived going through the Flames of Asuryan with out protection; Aenarion and Malekith. Tell me how has your long line of pretender-princes worked out for you? Seems kind of odd that Asuryan's 'chosen' have habit of meeting bad ends... to say nothing of the stellar success that was Caledor II, a real inspiration there.


How is he taking that his mother is more interested on Tyrion than on him, mmm?

I imagine he'd be quite happy with it, give her something else to do besides killing his girlfriends for 'not being good enough' :)


And something tells me that dealing with slaanesh on a daily basis isn't exactly healthy, either.

Looking at Malekith's track record... its certainly healthier than being a 'Phoenix King' ;)


Well, I'm quite sure it's that "evil is cool, evil is sexy" phase. Teenagers, pretty much.

Says the one who espouses the view that high elves should be better because they are good. If I'm going through a teenage inspired 'evil is sexy' phase, what does it say about your children's cartoon inspired 'good should always win' phase?

Shadeseraph
10-10-2013, 03:04
Says the one who espouses the view that high elves should be better because they are good. If I'm going through a teenage inspired 'evil is sexy' phase, what does it say about your children's cartoon inspired 'good should always win' phase?

All right, I can see how that last one could be understood as an attack against DE players. I was referring to the DE collective -in game-, as a race, not to the DE players, against who I have no problem at all. To avoid bad blood, I'll say that I do not think at all DE should get a bad book, nor I would enjoy it, but I do love taunting dark elves as a whole. I admit I dislike the DE army, but mainly because while I can rationalize "good" armies as just that, "good" in name (more of a grey-ish approach), I can't do so with "evil" armies, specially when lore tends to paint them as straight out bad guys. I've heard the new books are a bit more reasonable on that aspect, and I may be able to change my mind, but my experience with the old fluff is that "good" is usually allowed to not be really "good", while "evil" is "evil" for "evil"'s own sake.
To sum it up: The ones going through "teenageness" from the point of view of my HE are DE themselves, not necessarily DE players (though I do know a couple who suffer from that). I actually find some themes in Dark Elves as a whole quite compelling, such as the parallels to the late Rome, or the pirate theme (and not the embellished one).
And, for the record, High Elves should be better than Dark Elves because they are MY faction, and Dark Elves are their ancestral enemies, and, as such, MY enemies. Not related to good or bad in any way :P.

grumbaki
10-10-2013, 03:58
DE are no more evil than Spartans or Aztecs.

We humans have had societies that have relied on slave labor (Helots). We've done some pretty messed up sacrifices in the names of our gods. And unlike us, the DE gods actively reward them for this. It's not a rebellious teenager phase. It's their society.

That said, it always struck me that the DE fluff focuses on the extra whence of the ruling elite. Nobody wants to hear about the bakers or millers who can't afford to constantly replace their slaves.

Drasanil
10-10-2013, 04:06
but mainly because while I can rationalize "good" armies as just that, "good" in name (more of a grey-ish approach), I can't do so with "evil" armies, specially when lore tends to paint them as straight out bad guys. I've heard the new books are a bit more reasonable on that aspect, and I may be able to change my mind, but my experience with the old fluff is that "good" is usually allowed to not be really "good", while "evil" is "evil" for "evil"'s own sake.

For all its faults the 6th edition book did one thing right; it gave dark elves some plausible functional background. Shame 7th didn't build on it and just went for full derpage instead... but then that's what happens when you let Gav "I don't care if it's believable" Thorpe get his hands on things. Haven't had a chance to pick up the 8th book yet, but if it moves back more towards the 6th edition fluff it should be a lot better.


And, for the record, High Elves should be better than Dark Elves because they are MY faction, and Dark Elves are their ancestral enemies, and, as such, MY enemies. Not related to good or bad in any way :P.

Easy for you then. Been collecting both factions since I started playing back in 5th edition, so they're both 'my faction' so to speak and I don't really have an 'instinctive' favourite. But yeah no bad blood, I just tend to get annoyed when it looks like people try to turn what I like to think of a nice greyscale civil war into D&D style goody-goods Vs bady-bads, which is what I thought you were doing.

EDIT:
That said, it always struck me that the DE fluff focuses on the extra whence of the ruling elite. Nobody wants to hear about the bakers or millers who can't afford to constantly replace their slaves.

This. But Let us not forget those visionary ruling elites who dare to bravely think that killing off the household appliances for having the sniffles is a terrible waste of their money!

Shadeseraph
10-10-2013, 10:56
DE are no more evil than Spartans or Aztecs.

Ehem. First paragraph of the 7th edition Dark Elven army book bestiary. If that's not straight out "Evulz", I don't know what it is. Spartans and Aztecs were conquerors and had some strange beliefs, but they didn't hate "even other [of their own kind]", nor got pleasure from torture and extending misery. The 5th edition army book was quite similar in this regard, though I admit I missed the 6th edition army book (I got so fed up with 5th ed heroehammer I left the game for a long while, and didn't come back until the end of 7th ed).


It's not a rebellious teenager phase. It's their society.

Yes, yes, Dark elves can keep on telling themselves that. "It's not my fault, is the society which forces me to be like this" :P.

Dalamyr the Fleetmaster
12-10-2013, 01:47
There's some really scary units out there hellebron leading her horde of witch elves with three lvl 1 beasts shamans with wyssans puts the fear in me, as does the horde of executioners with tullaris, it's going to be top tier in competitive play however if your playing casual games it's not going to be over powered kill everything, which is cool

shinankoku
28-10-2013, 17:42
Mea culpa ... off topic a bit but ... I hate the new chariots with one wheel. My DEs are now the Warhammer army driving the Reliant Robins, for &@!k's sake ...

Odin
28-10-2013, 22:02
Only got to see the book last weekend. The Fleetmaster is hilarious. What the hell were they smoking when they wrote his rules?! Utterly useless. Still, it's a rubbish model anyway.

Wesser
28-10-2013, 22:21
Only got to see the book last weekend. The Fleetmaster is hilarious. What the hell were they smoking when they wrote his rules?! Utterly useless. Still, it's a rubbish model anyway.

He's like a fluff guy. Someone you can use and claim you're playing casual.

For further explanation please Google : Seahelm, Tomb Herald, Generals of the Empire, Skink Chiefs....

Rakariel
29-10-2013, 09:44
The problem is, the Fleetmaster stinks no matter which way you look at his rules. Using him in a fluffy list can work but then again I would rather use Lokhir because I like his model far better on top of it. They should have made a Master BSB instead, or a Malus model, or a new Morathi (the old one is just urrgh imo).

JWH
29-10-2013, 10:33
...or Tullaris and Kouran, even though their fluff has been greatly expended and they've made a combined execs/bg box. I agree the lack of a new malus baffles me, because the old one was understandably taken down. The fleetmaster just sucks balls big time, both model wise and on rules-wise. I'd much rather have a cool plastic on foot dreadlord.

Cons:
- It's a master with an extra wound that's a lord choice instead of a hero choice.
- It costs more than twice the points of a master for +1 wound, a SDC, and an extra HW.
- It's only allowed 50 points of magic items instead of the normal 100 for lords.
- It has a rediculous special rule for an elf character with 3W and T3. Furthermore, the 50 point item allowance means that you can't really give him both a defensive and offensive item.
- As Rakariel said, Lokhir may have one less wound than the fleetmaster, but is much, much better at doing what the fleetmaster wants to do and at a hero level to boot.
- The model is just horrid! I actually like the harpoon leg, however I dislike that the rediculous jaw-collar is sculpted on the body and thus not easily removed, I'm appaled by the throwback 'keep my upper arms pressed firmly against my body' pose and the head is just so bad. What irks me overall though, is that the fleetmaster is supposed to represent a salty sea dog, but the model looks like a metrosexual Cruella DeVille.

Pros:
-Finally a corsair character!

RTB01
29-10-2013, 10:44
- The model is just horrid! I actually like the harpoon leg, however I dislike that the rediculous jaw-collar is sculpted on the body and thus not easily removed, I'm appaled by the throwback 'keep my upper arms pressed firmly against my body' pose and the head is just so bad. What irks me overall though, is that the fleetmaster is supposed to represent a salty sea dog, but the model looks like a metrosexual Cruella DeVille.

Pros:
-Finally a corsair character!

101 Kharybdissis?...

On another note I really like the new book, some may question some of the models but the army options are great and seemingly there are loads of viable builds which is great, what's not to like?

JWH
29-10-2013, 10:47
101 Kharybdissis?...

On another note I really like the new book, some may question some of the models but the army options are great and seemingly there are loads of viable builds which is great, what's not to like?

I agree! I love the new book: it's so nice to love playing with my DE's again after the very underpowered 6th edition book and the horribly overpowered 7th edition one!

Romark
29-10-2013, 10:52
...or Tullaris and Kouran, even though their fluff has been greatly expended and they've made a combined execs/bg box. I agree the lack of a new malus baffles me, because the old one was understandably taken down. The fleetmaster just sucks balls big time, both model wise and on rules-wise. I'd much rather have a cool plastic on foot dreadlord.

Cons:
- It's a master with an extra wound that's a lord choice instead of a hero choice.
- It costs more than twice the points of a master for +1 wound, a SDC, and an extra HW.
- It's only allowed 50 points of magic items instead of the normal 100 for lords.
- It has a rediculous special rule for an elf character with 3W and T3. Furthermore, the 50 point item allowance means that you can't really give him both a defensive and offensive item.
- As Rakariel said, Lokhir may have one less wound than the fleetmaster, but is much, much better at doing what the fleetmaster wants to do and at a hero level to boot.
- The model is just horrid! I actually like the harpoon leg, however I dislike that the rediculous jaw-collar is sculpted on the body and thus not easily removed, I'm appaled by the throwback 'keep my upper arms pressed firmly against my body' pose and the head is just so bad. What irks me overall though, is that the fleetmaster is supposed to represent a salty sea dog, but the model looks like a metrosexual Cruella DeVille.

Pros:
-Finally a corsair character!

I like the Fleetmaster, purely from a fluff perspective. I agree with all your Cons' and pro. Except i like the jaw-collar, and hate the leg. He lands on beaches, how will he stand on a damned beach with a SWORD LEG?!?!

Sorry. Always gets me. I have built 2 army lists (one used) that included him as my main Lord, and General. But then i am prone to building over fluffy, and not very competitive, lists. If i was building an army for a tournament, he wouldn't be close to the line-up.

Like a mate that's crap at football. You pick him for a kickabout, but not for a match.

JWH
29-10-2013, 11:01
Thing is, I live for fluff....competition comes second. But I just cannot bring myself to using the fleetmaster rules; I would use him as a dreadlord with two hand weapons and a SDC any day of the week; just as fluffy if you use the model, the same amount of points and one hell of a lot better.
The point with the leg is that it is a loose part; I wouldn't mind the jaw so much if it was a loose part as well. But the way it's stuck on the torso makes it almost impossible to remove.

Soundwave
29-10-2013, 13:22
The fleet master is a bad and qwerky model but it is growing on me.I would like to paint it for some reason...

IcedCrow
29-10-2013, 13:35
I was actually consider leading my army with a fleetmaster for our lustria campaign next year. You know, because I'm a hipster and everyone else hates it ;)

Soundwave
29-10-2013, 13:52
I was actually consider leading my army with a fleetmaster for our lustria campaign next year. You know, because I'm a hipster and everyone else hates it ;)

Haha its not the bad rules,its what you can do with them:).

IcedCrow
29-10-2013, 14:49
Yep. I like challenges. And its fun when you can get something that everyone thinks is horrible and do well with it.

Ravening Wh0re
30-10-2013, 01:11
I like the Fleetmaster, purely from a fluff perspective. I agree with all your Cons' and pro. Except i like the jaw-collar, and hate the leg. He lands on beaches, how will he stand on a damned beach with a SWORD LEG?!?!

He uses a cork :)