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BlackPawl
05-10-2013, 16:59
As a new High Elf player I am a little frustrated with the new DE book. All the new 8th books were fine and balanced, but now I have to think that the last book is - compared with the HE - much better.

Spearelves have the same equipment, points and stats. But the DE spears have hatred against HE (which means 25% more hits in the first round of combat) and their own special rule (rerolls for 1 on the to wound roll). The special rule from HE with spears is only good if you have more bodies in the unit.

HE core can only take one magic banner (and only with spears), DE core units (except dark riders) can all have magic banners up to 25 points (or 50 for witch elves). Really?

Sea cloak is so much better (just another +2 to AS) against a lion pelt.

Now the DE wizards can take all lore from the BRB, have the better special rule and hatred and are 5 points cheaper than the HE wizards. Why?
And they can also ride on a dark pegasus (which grants her more flexibility).

One unit of HE have a ward save (and there was much complaining about the lore attribute of the High lore spells), but now the De have two units which have 4+ ward saves (and one unit is also a sorcerer).

Compared with DE HE are really slow and weak, just one HE unit has Ini 6 and one has S4, but 5 DE units have Ini 6 and 3 have S4.


I though that with the 8th army books the balance was good, but now with this comparision I think they have passed a good chance for balancing the books.

Or have I overseen anything? What did you think? Are HE better (or at least at the same level) as DE? Or is it the same old story like 7th edition with better De then HE story?

Voss
05-10-2013, 17:19
As a new High Elf player I am a little frustrated with the new DE book. All the new 8th books were fine and balanced, but now I have to think that the last book is - compared with the HE - much better.

Spearelves have the same equipment, points and stats. But the DE spears have hatred against HE (which means 25% more hits in the first round of combat) and their own special rule (rerolls for 1 on the to wound roll). The special rule from HE with spears is only good if you have more bodies in the unit.
It kicks in at more than 15 models, which is pretty likely for core spears.


HE core can only take one magic banner (and only with spears), DE core units (except dark riders) can all have magic banners up to 25 points (or 50 for witch elves). Really?
I'm looking at the list of 25 point (or less) banners in the main rulebook (since there aren't any DE ones). I have no idea why this even matters.



Sea cloak is so much better (just another +2 to AS) against a lion pelt. And pretty restricted. It gives that one unit a 4+ save. Except for cav and chariots, nothing else in the army can hit that 'high' level of AS. Yes, masters and dreadlords can hit a 2+ save easily, but honestly, whatever. Most armies can put 1 or 2 fighty characters at 2+ or better.


Now the DE wizards can take all lore from the BRB, have the better special rule and hatred and are 5 points cheaper than the HE wizards. Why?
And they can also ride on a dark pegasus (which grants her more flexibility). They both get +1 to cast.


One unit of HE have a ward save (and there was much complaining about the lore attribute of the High lore spells), but now the De have two units which have 4+ ward saves (and one unit is also a sorcerer).
Yeah, the sisters are toting all of a shield outside of combat. Both eat up the rare allowance pretty quickly and neither unit blocks up like the phoenix guard. If you see a large unit of of warlocks, the DE player is doing something wrong. (The casting bonus is a trap: multiple units of warlocks are much better than additional ranks)


I though that with the 8th army books the balance was good, but now with this comparision I think they have passed a good chance for balancing the books.

Balancing them to be a mirror match would have been pointless and extremely dull. Both armies have strengths and weaknesses and I don't see a lot that suggests dark elves are just going to win. It looks like a pretty brutal fight between evenly matched opponents to me.

babyberg31
05-10-2013, 17:26
Everything that should be said and he said it well.

Nothing more to tell about this rant.

BlackPawl
05-10-2013, 17:45
It kicks in at more than 15 models, which is pretty likely for core spears.

Yes, but you have to take more (for the same price) so that this rule matters. The DE rule matters even with a single fighter.



I'm looking at the list of 25 point (or less) banners in the main rulebook (since there aren't any DE ones). I have no idea why this even matters.

Would like it to have the banner of eternal flame of the banner of discipline or the banner with +1 M in one unit.



And pretty restricted. It gives that one unit a 4+ save. Except for cav and chariots, nothing else in the army can hit that 'high' level of AS. Yes, masters and dreadlords can hit a 2+ save easily, but honestly, whatever. Most armies can put 1 or 2 fighty characters at 2+ or better.

Yes, but DE can do it without access to magic armor, so a BSB on foot with a magic banner and a 2+ armor save is possible for DE.



They both get +1 to cast.

Yes, the same stats, better special rules and both get a +1 for their lore - but HE are 5 points more!!


They should not have done a mirror match for both book, but when one unit has the same stats, better rules and an army wide special rule against one other army and the same points, then there is something wrong. Balancing should be better.

If you take any unit, let the stats, equipment and points the same and add some special rule - is this balancing?

Scammel
05-10-2013, 17:46
Yes, the same stats, better special rules and both get a +1 for their lore - but HE are 5 points more!!

I know, it's ridiculously in favour of HE. You pay a mere 5 points for access to several more lores.


and an army wide special rule against one other army

Don't HE get this too?

BlackPawl
05-10-2013, 17:52
I know, it's ridiculously in favour of HE. You pay a mere 5 points for access to several more lores.



Don't HE get this too?


Maybe do not know it: DE wizards have now also access to all 8 lores from the BRB!

HE have one special rule against DE that says that they can reroll all failed panic, fear and terror test if they fight against DE - nothing you need if the BRB is nearby. But they can not kill so much better against DE

AverageBoss
05-10-2013, 17:54
I know, it's ridiculously in favour of HE. You pay a mere 5 points for access to several more lores.

Actually Dark Elves get all 8 rule book lores plus Dark Magic now (which I would say is far stronger than High Magic).


Don't HE get this too?

High Elves have no special rule against Dark Elves (at least not one that matters) with their 8th edition book.

It seems to me Ward did with the elves what he usually does when writing two Marine books in a row. Make the the second equal the 1st +1. I dont think Dark Elves are in any way broken, but they clearly do alot of the same things High Elves do more efficiently.

Vexare
05-10-2013, 17:59
Don't get why the HE players are crying about DE being too strong.. Like HE got nothing good in their new book...

Sendt fra min ST17i med Tapatalk2

Scammel
05-10-2013, 18:04
Maybe do not know it: DE wizards have now also access to all 8 lores from the BRB!


Okay, fair enough. 5pts is hardly a grave injustice though and I'd still argue that the HE lore attribute far outclasses most others including the DE one.


HE have one special rule against DE that says that they can reroll all failed panic, fear and terror test if they fight against DE - nothing you need if the BRB is nearby.

That's a damn good rule to have. Half the time you don't need the BSB nearby, freeing up your deployment options a bit.


(at least not one that matters)

I wager most Warhammer players would strongly refute that.

Spiney Norman
05-10-2013, 18:31
Actually Dark Elves get all 8 rule book lores plus Dark Magic now (which I would say is far stronger than High Magic).



High Elves have no special rule against Dark Elves (at least not one that matters) with their 8th edition book.

It seems to me Ward did with the elves what he usually does when writing two Marine books in a row. Make the the second equal the 1st +1. I dont think Dark Elves are in any way broken, but they clearly do alot of the same things High Elves do more efficiently.

Lets just say I'm praying for a miracle that he hasn't done wood elves as well

Scammel
05-10-2013, 18:32
He didn't 'do' Dark Elves either. He hasn't worked on any rules for two years.

IcedCrow
05-10-2013, 18:36
Penis envy threads are rarely constructive. I pretty much wholly disagree with everything complained about.

A dark elf book that mirrored high elves would have been lame. High elves have a lot of cool things. Dark elf book does as well.

Stop trying to compare books in a vacuum.

BlackPawl
05-10-2013, 19:31
Penis envy threads are rarely constructive. I pretty much wholly disagree with everything complained about.

A dark elf book that mirrored high elves would have been lame. High elves have a lot of cool things. Dark elf book does as well.

Stop trying to compare books in a vacuum.


Cool things? Yes.
But comparing units and special rules is not "compare in a vacuum". Would it be good to have an army and you know that there is an army out there that can do all the things you do (with the same stats, prices etc.) but is "better"?

I would say nothing if DE are better than HE but with more points.

Scammel
05-10-2013, 19:49
DE certainly have worse Magic Items than HE and I'm not just talking about that banner. DE also, oddly enough, lose out on the monster front.

CrystalSphere
05-10-2013, 19:54
The main thing i think is wrong is the fact that the DE core units can get magic banners, while the HE core units cannot. I also donīt understand why repeater crossbows kept the armour piercing, in comparison bows perform worse, if only slightly.

I donīt mind the rest of stuff, I actually prefer martial prowess over the murderous prowess rule of the DE, but i wished hatred had a downside like in previous editions (forced to pursue), so it is not a simple advantage.

BlackPawl
05-10-2013, 20:02
DE certainly have worse Magic Items than HE and I'm not just talking about that banner. DE also, oddly enough, lose out on the monster front.

Worse items? The dagger to boost your magic phase is really good (and cheap), the robe and the ring too. Only the banner and the hydra blade are too expensive.

HE have only the Frostphoenix, but he has only 4 attacks. He is good as a support unit or against MSU, but the Hydra get 8 attacks and can heal wound back. And it is a lot cheaper and in special now, so you can have 3 of them for two phoenix.

Scammel
05-10-2013, 20:53
Worse items? The dagger to boost your magic phase is really good (and cheap), the robe and the ring too. Only the banner and the hydra blade are too expensive.

HE have only the Frostphoenix, but he has only 4 attacks. He is good as a support unit or against MSU, but the Hydra get 8 attacks and can heal wound back. And it is a lot cheaper and in special now, so you can have 3 of them for two phoenix.

The Dagger is good. It is not the World Dragon nor is it the Book. And whilst Hydras are better in combat than Phoenixes, the birds have the advantage of better movement and one of the most incredible de-buff effects in the game.

Jabbercrow
05-10-2013, 20:58
I have an HE army and my friend is just starting to collect DEs - looking forward to pitting myself against them. I think making all the DEs and HEs mirror each other for point cost and abilities would have been a mistake. Clearly DEs have been made very aggressive with their monsters and special rules and I wouldn't relish going head to head with any HE unit and the rough equivalent DE unit, but I really think HEs have many more defensive and ranged elements that just mean we won't play like the DEs, which is good! Sure, I wish the Seahelm could operate the Eagle Eye Bolt Thrower like the Beastmaster, but such is life - I'm certainly chuffed that we can field phoenixes, sisters of averlorn and have core 2+ armour save cavalry :) I'm sure that if you prevent your opponent DEs playing the way they'd like that you'll be fine and be very happy that the HEs are the way they are.

Odin
05-10-2013, 20:59
The main thing i think is wrong is the fact that the DE core units can get magic banners, while the HE core units cannot. I also donīt understand why repeater crossbows kept the armour piercing, in comparison bows perform worse, if only slightly.

I donīt mind the rest of stuff, I actually prefer martial prowess over the murderous prowess rule of the DE, but i wished hatred had a downside like in previous editions (forced to pursue), so it is not a simple advantage.

I assumed they would lose AP, did they not? Price increase for RXB units at least I hope?

Spider
05-10-2013, 21:09
As a new High Elf player I am a little frustrated with the new DE book. All the new 8th books were fine and balanced, but now I have to think that the last book is - compared with the HE - much better.

Spearelves have the same equipment, points and stats. But the DE spears have hatred against HE (which means 25% more hits in the first round of combat) and their own special rule (rerolls for 1 on the to wound roll). The special rule from HE with spears is only good if you have more bodies in the unit.

HE core can only take one magic banner (and only with spears), DE core units (except dark riders) can all have magic banners up to 25 points (or 50 for witch elves). Really?

Sea cloak is so much better (just another +2 to AS) against a lion pelt.

Now the DE wizards can take all lore from the BRB, have the better special rule and hatred and are 5 points cheaper than the HE wizards. Why?
And they can also ride on a dark pegasus (which grants her more flexibility).

One unit of HE have a ward save (and there was much complaining about the lore attribute of the High lore spells), but now the De have two units which have 4+ ward saves (and one unit is also a sorcerer).

Compared with DE HE are really slow and weak, just one HE unit has Ini 6 and one has S4, but 5 DE units have Ini 6 and 3 have S4.


I though that with the 8th army books the balance was good, but now with this comparision I think they have passed a good chance for balancing the books.

Or have I overseen anything? What did you think? Are HE better (or at least at the same level) as DE? Or is it the same old story like 7th edition with better De then HE story?

So you think the Dark Elves should have simply reprinted the High Elves book with (perhaps) a grimmer cover?

I hear the VC can raise dead dudes back and apparently the deamons have flying fly things.

Maybe you should be complaining about those to?



I feeling snarky.

Any army that can field that banner has no room to argue about anything ever.

TsukeFox
05-10-2013, 21:20
As a new High Elf player I am a little frustrated with the new DE book. All the new 8th books were fine and balanced, but now I have to think that the last book is - compared with the HE - much better.

Spearelves have the same equipment, points and stats. But the DE spears have hatred against HE (which means 25% more hits in the first round of combat) and their own special rule (rerolls for 1 on the to wound roll). The special rule from HE with spears is only good if you have more bodies in the unit.

HE core can only take one magic banner (and only with spears), DE core units (except dark riders) can all have magic banners up to 25 points (or 50 for witch elves). Really?

Sea cloak is so much better (just another +2 to AS) against a lion pelt.

Now the DE wizards can take all lore from the BRB, have the better special rule and hatred and are 5 points cheaper than the HE wizards. Why?
And they can also ride on a dark pegasus (which grants her more flexibility).

One unit of HE have a ward save (and there was much complaining about the lore attribute of the High lore spells), but now the De have two units which have 4+ ward saves (and one unit is also a sorcerer).

Compared with DE HE are really slow and weak, just one HE unit has Ini 6 and one has S4, but 5 DE units have Ini 6 and 3 have S4.


I though that with the 8th army books the balance was good, but now with this comparision I think they have passed a good chance for balancing the books.

Or have I overseen anything? What did you think? Are HE better (or at least at the same level) as DE? Or is it the same old story like 7th edition with better De then HE story?

In response to "all 8th books are created evenly" I would like you to talk to Tomb Kings on how they feel compared to Vampires, Daemons to Warriors, Lizardmen release compared to Dark Elf release and O& G compared to all other books.

So yeah dark elves for the better deal on a lot of things compared to High elves. But try and remember the bottom 3 armies got hosed. Just hosed.
Now is the time to adapt tactics.

Scammel
05-10-2013, 21:27
There are inconsistencies, yes. Personally I honestly can't remember when the game was as balanced and varied as it is now. I certainly don't know why O&G would be complaining...

Spiney Norman
05-10-2013, 21:33
In response to "all 8th books are created evenly" I would like you to talk to Tomb Kings on how they feel compared to Vampires, Daemons to Warriors, Lizardmen release compared to Dark Elf release and O& G compared to all other books.

So yeah dark elves for the better deal on a lot of things compared to High elves. But try and remember the bottom 3 armies got hosed. Just hosed.
Now is the time to adapt tactics.

Well I play Lizardmen, Tomb Kings & O&G and I've got to say I don't see O&G being that disadvantaged compared to any of the 8E books, savage Orc Bigguns are still one of the scariest core units in the game (even with these new-fangled witch elves). Tomb Kings are on the backfoot its true, but then TK have been on the backfoot since their 6th edition book hit the shelves so we've learned to bear that particular cross long ago.

I don't get your comment about Lizardmen at all, they are still one of the most solid lists out there, its true they didn't get anything new or creative in their new list and their core options were actually contracted rather than the new expansions that other recent armies have got, but they remain a very strong army. Its true that I don't have a clue how powerful the new dark elf book will turn out to be, but it will have to be pretty broken to make me lament the strength of the Lizardmen book, which IMHO is currently in the top 25% of armies currently.

If anything I find the dark elf release quite amusing on how much in their book is basically just there to 1up high elves.

Urgat
05-10-2013, 21:52
Yes, but you have to take more (for the same price) so that this rule matters. The DE rule matters even with a single fighter.

Nah, because a small unit of them, even with the special rules, will have little impact on anything.



HE have one special rule against DE that says that they can reroll all failed panic, fear and terror test if they fight against DE - nothing you need if the BRB is nearby. But they can not kill so much better against DE
I doubt you can fit all your army in the BSB bubble. That kind of rule is priceless for flanking or autonomous units such as cavalry.


In response to "all 8th books are created evenly" I would like you to talk to [...] O& G compared to all other books.

He can go ahead: 8th ed is the best time ever for greenskin players, if we except 6th ed goblins that were 2pts and, quite frankly, underpriced.

Odin
05-10-2013, 22:08
In response to "all 8th books are created evenly" I would like you to talk to Tomb Kings on how they feel compared to Vampires, Daemons to Warriors, Lizardmen release compared to Dark Elf release and O& G compared to all other books.

So yeah dark elves for the better deal on a lot of things compared to High elves. But try and remember the bottom 3 armies got hosed. Just hosed.
Now is the time to adapt tactics.

No they didn't. They're a bit below average, that's all.

Blingley
05-10-2013, 22:19
No they didn't. They're a bit below average, that's all.

Lizardmen are not even below average, if we're looking at the latest Blood & Glory tournament results. Tomb Kings, however, are in the crappiest crap-pile of crap-crabs crapping themselves.

theunwantedbeing
05-10-2013, 22:34
Spearelves have the same equipment, points and stats.
Damn...a price rise, lame :(


HE core can only take one magic banner (and only with spears), DE core units (except dark riders) can all have magic banners up to 25 points (or 50 for witch elves). Really?
Does that mean there are some actually good banners to take now?


Sea cloak is so much better (just another +2 to AS) against a lion pelt.
It's always been better, it's made of scales...not fur.


Now the DE wizards can take all lore from the BRB, have the better special rule and hatred and are 5 points cheaper than the HE wizards. Why?
And they can also ride on a dark pegasus (which grants her more flexibility).
Yay, price drop for our mage and access to dwellers so we can 6 dice dweller opposing mages FINALLY.


One unit of HE have a ward save (and there was much complaining about the lore attribute of the High lore spells), but now the De have two units which have 4+ ward saves (and one unit is also a sorcerer).
Hooray, ward saves!
Hooray sorcerer unit!


Compared with DE HE are really slow and weak, just one HE unit has Ini 6 and one has S4, but 5 DE units have Ini 6 and 3 have S4.
Are cold ones mv10 now? Awesome.

Do we get hatred for mounts back?
If not, the book sucks.

IcedCrow
05-10-2013, 23:15
Except that, again, dark elf units as a whole are not super better. Armies operate as parts of a whole. It IS the definition of vacuum comparison when you try and compare two units outside of the whole of an army.

To complain over a 5 point disparity in characters is getting banal.

These threads arise after every army release and typically prove to be mostly hyperbolic comparisons.

Lets not forget about the classical banner of mat ward save the high elves have. Imo probably one of the best items in the game for what it does and how cheap it is.

I Am Forsaken
05-10-2013, 23:25
We have a game today pitting our HE and DE players against each other, i'll let everyone know how it goes for interest.

TheDungen
06-10-2013, 00:01
Lets just say I'm praying for a miracle that he hasn't done wood elves as well

he actually has, the current WE book is a Ward book.

DaemonReign
06-10-2013, 00:19
Personally I honestly can't remember when the game was as balanced and varied as it is now.
I agree completely but this is a matter of core-mechanics being dynamic in a way that the game's never been before.
The balance and variety of 8th Edition exists in spite of Matt Ward's ineptitude at rewriting army books, not the other way around.

SteveW
06-10-2013, 00:49
As a new High Elf player I am a little frustrated with the new DE book. All the new 8th books were fine and balanced, but now I have to think that the last book is - compared with the HE - much better.

Spearelves have the same equipment, points and stats. But the DE spears have hatred against HE (which means 25% more hits in the first round of combat) and their own special rule (rerolls for 1 on the to wound roll). The special rule from HE with spears is only good if you have more bodies in the unit.

HE core can only take one magic banner (and only with spears), DE core units (except dark riders) can all have magic banners up to 25 points (or 50 for witch elves). Really?

Sea cloak is so much better (just another +2 to AS) against a lion pelt.

Now the DE wizards can take all lore from the BRB, have the better special rule and hatred and are 5 points cheaper than the HE wizards. Why?
And they can also ride on a dark pegasus (which grants her more flexibility).

One unit of HE have a ward save (and there was much complaining about the lore attribute of the High lore spells), but now the De have two units which have 4+ ward saves (and one unit is also a sorcerer).

Compared with DE HE are really slow and weak, just one HE unit has Ini 6 and one has S4, but 5 DE units have Ini 6 and 3 have S4.


I though that with the 8th army books the balance was good, but now with this comparision I think they have passed a good chance for balancing the books.

Or have I overseen anything? What did you think? Are HE better (or at least at the same level) as DE? Or is it the same old story like 7th edition with better De then HE story?

I'd take HE spears vs DE spears any day because of martial prowess. You get a whole extra rank of attacks every round vs. their reroll in the first.

Miredorf
06-10-2013, 00:53
It seems to me Ward did with the elves what he usually does when writing two Marine books in a row. Make the the second equal the 1st +1. I dont think Dark Elves are in any way broken, but they clearly do alot of the same things High Elves do more efficiently.

Then wood elf players must be already celebrating in joy :p

ewar
06-10-2013, 01:07
I've been reading with amusement the shirt-tearing nerd rage over on Ulthuan.net - I'm surprised it's taken this long to spill over here.

Some comparisons are just so daft - the sea dragon cloak gives Corsairs a better save in close combat - so what? They're corsairs. The Lion cloak is on ******** White Lions, that's why it doesn't work in close combat. The two items are applied to different units and have different ultimate effects in game i.e. the Lion cloak would make the already very good WLs even better.

Honestly, I think it'll be close between the two armies - I'll wait and see based on actual games next weekend (two of my gaming friends run HE and DE respectively) but overall the new DE book has come down in power. As far as I'm aware the 8th ed HE book was doing ok against the older more powerful DE book so I think it will be fine.

The hydra will be crushed by Frosties, so there is no real competition there. In all honesty that one unit will be the tipping point in a lot of matches - giving a DE unit -1S and ASL will get them beaten in any even close combat.

I do think Mr Ward made the mage 5pts less just to see prod the nerds where it will annoy them though :)

Knifeparty
06-10-2013, 01:27
The High Elf book is extremely competitive. It's a very good book with very good units, I would argue that on a whole the High Elf book is better than the Dark Elf book if you look at the units individually.

However, Dark Elves excel at the type of war that just happens to destroy High Elves, and that is an overwhelming amount of low to midrange strength attacks with re-rolls coming out of their ass. High Elves are the elite of the elite, and can take on just about anything pound for pound especially with their stacking ward saves. The Dark Elves just drown enemies in attacks, and High elves don't have the numbers to stand up to that.

But seriously, High Elves have White Lions, Phoenix Guard and Frost Phoenix's...stop crying.

boli
06-10-2013, 01:45
I haven't read the new book yet but it seems to me most of the annoyance is a DE vs HE match up DEs take the advantage by removing one of the HEs

I'm talking about the fact ASF will cancel each other out but DEs will still retain the rerolls (1st round of combat). I know its a fluff thing but its ruddy annoying.

When you are T3 5+AS the first round of combat really matters

IcedCrow
06-10-2013, 02:24
I've been reading with amusement the shirt-tearing nerd rage over on Ulthuan.net - I'm surprised it's taken this long to spill over here.

These are the same guys that were saying the banner of mat ward vs demons is not even that big a deal and that demon players need to "l2p". lol llololololtrolololol.

Right.

daynewma
06-10-2013, 04:54
Well I play Lizardmen, Tomb Kings & O&G and I've got to say I don't see O&G being that disadvantaged compared to any of the 8E books, savage Orc Bigguns are still one of the scariest core units in the game (even with these new-fangled witch elves). Tomb Kings are on the backfoot its true, but then TK have been on the backfoot since their 6th edition book hit the shelves so we've learned to bear that particular cross long ago.

I don't get your comment about Lizardmen at all, they are still one of the most solid lists out there, its true they didn't get anything new or creative in their new list and their core options were actually contracted rather than the new expansions that other recent armies have got, but they remain a very strong army. Its true that I don't have a clue how powerful the new dark elf book will turn out to be, but it will have to be pretty broken to make me lament the strength of the Lizardmen book, which IMHO is currently in the top 25% of armies currently.

If anything I find the dark elf release quite amusing on how much in their book is basically just there to 1up high elves.

I've read your other postings on Lizardmen, and have to say I'm not getting it at all. Played a couple games with them. Lizardmen are not in the top 25 percent. They're not as weak as Tomb Kings, but they're weaker than O&G. They can take ONE magic banner. In a non-core unit. Every single strong option in 7th got worse in some way. Nothing that was bad got better, and some things that were OK became terrible (really just skroxigor). Skinks lost leadership, Slann nerfed hard. Sallies lost march/fire. EotG nerfed (3 benefits all at once, now just none of them are useful). It's mind boggling how someone can play a game with the Lizards and say "top 1/4, yeah."

For them to be in the top 25 percent/top four armies (according to what the current standings are in the power balance poll), they'd need to be more powerful than one of the following:


WoC
Skaven
Ogre Kingdoms
Dark Elves/High Elves


Quite frankly, they are not. I would argue they aren't as powerful as Vampires or Empire or O/G. They may be on par with some Daemon builds that aren't Epidemius.

On topic, I agree with you that the DE release is actually pretty funny in that it exists to grief High Elves. "Oh, you have a special army rule? We like that, we'll take that and get to reroll wound rolls. And our core infantry will vastly outmatch yours. Because." High Elves shouldn't be the ones complaining. They got a 2+ ward banner. Their infantry is still really strong for the points. They have really fast high armour save core cavalry. They got +1 to cast and a strong casting arcane item (book). And still one of the best monsters in the game with the strongest debuff. Oh, the poor plight of the High Elves (who, on Ulthuan, were hilariously complaining about how powerful Slann were when the LM came out). Not only did HE get a strong book, but a well written (for the most part) one as well.

For example, HE can go cavalry heavy with silverhelms, infantry heavy with any number of good options, or use those good chariots, shooting heavy, etc.. There's one competitive WoC build you see over and over again (I'm guilty as anyone else). See Chosen, Marauders, Dragon Ogres, Marauder horsemen, Forsaken, Hellstriders, Chaos Knights, Chaos lords, Slaughterbrutes, Mutalith beasts, or Shaggoths recently? No. Same reason you won't see Skroxigor, CoC, or any number of LM options. Why, oh why, do HE players on here seem to feel slighted when another strong (or quite possibly stronger) book comes out?

And for the person who said magic banners don't matter, keep in mind they can have units of flaming repeater crossbows. So say goodbye to Chimeras, Trolls, and anything with regen saves. Hellpits will especially feel the pain (very little sympathy).

Nubl0
06-10-2013, 05:36
As I a primarily daemon player I have zero sympathy. When I'm forced to spam nurgle against helf Death Stars it makes for a. Rey boring game. Other than that banner the high elves seems fine, however reading through this new De book I must say it seems more... I dunno "fun" but maybe that's my bias towards evil stuff. I find the books pretty evenly matched having a quick read through the both of them.

Brotheroracle
06-10-2013, 06:14
High Elves still get one of the most fun lord choices in the game, the loremaster. Seriously, knowing all the sig spells is fun, there is a lot of flexibility in that guy, and he can punk down most hero lvl choices based on his stats alone, with a good magic phase he can still tackle fighty lord choices too.

High Elves and Dark Elves are both vulnerable to shooting for the most part, High Elves less so. Sea Dragon cloaks are better then lion pelts but, Corsairs are not really good at taking on White Lions. Sure the Corsairs go first but the White Lions cleave right through them (higher WS, denies their AS). On paper Executioners beat White Lions but lose to Swordmasters. Phoenix Guard still are very durable units.

Also Dragon Princes have I6 (Some one was counting units with I6 earlier)

grumbaki
06-10-2013, 07:12
Phoenix Guard. 4++, easily turns into a 3++. That's brutal against just about anything.

Trains_Get_Robbed
06-10-2013, 08:15
So much faboyism. :rolleyes:

Do H.E have a bad matchup against D.E? Competitively, no. Non-competitively, yes. Every High Elf list takes Frostys now because it is literally our only answer to the meta game, so any commentary stating that "H.E are better because frozen turkeys" is moot; High Elves have to take them, otherwise the book is rather unplayable -competitively speaking.

I feel bad for H.E players as they spent their money on a army that was "good" to only be "outreleased." I know I didn't sign up for: Warhammer Armies: Articuno and Friends, but I guess I'm going to be stuck until my love child comes out in May :D.

While lastly bashing the guys on Ulthuan.net is rather snide isn't it? I think they are one of the nicest communities around, not to mention that just a handful of posters over there have more tournament and meta game insight than this entire site combined. Henceforth, lets be civil.

PS. If your complaining about the BotWD you must either play Demons or just frankly put: lack skill at the game. It doesn't do anything to 80% of the metagame, yet all I see is random posters with no support just bashing it (show me on the doll where the mean ole' elf touched you :p ). If you want to bash the item because it's auto win vs. DoC and feel that it shouldn't have been made for that reason, I have no qualms. However, any other reason seems like a lazy excuse to blame your losses on, grow a pair and bring some crackers if to his proverbial (non-existent) cheese.

BlackPawl
06-10-2013, 09:37
These are the same guys that were saying the banner of mat ward vs demons is not even that big a deal and that demon players need to "l2p". lol llololololtrolololol.

Right.

I'm not "the same guy" - because I did not discussed the banner.

And I don't want to compare the level of one banner or HE against everything. I have just the opinion that the DE get all the rules HE have but with some more special rules for the same price.



I've been reading with amusement the shirt-tearing nerd rage over on Ulthuan.net - I'm surprised it's taken this long to spill over here.

I'm wasn't on Ulthuan.net for a long time, so I don't know anything about what was written there.

Scammel
06-10-2013, 09:49
And I don't want to compare the level of one banner or HE against everything. I have just the opinion that the DE get all the rules HE have but with some more special rules for the same price.

ASF, Martial Prowess and pseudo-ItP against ASF, Murderous Prowess and Hatred. Not sure exactly how you can have that opinion.

rolly_321
06-10-2013, 10:09
High elves are no where no being a low tier army. There will never be perfect balance. While HE and DE have connected fluff that doesn't mean every battle would be between them. Both armies are competitive, neither is going to auto-loose to the other, nor will either play the other in a majority of games. Be glad you don't play wood elves.

Odin
06-10-2013, 10:23
I'd take HE spears vs DE spears any day because of martial prowess. You get a whole extra rank of attacks every round vs. their reroll in the first.

Er, don't the DE guys get their Muderous Prowess reroll every turn?

Eldarin Hope
06-10-2013, 10:34
Think he was referring to Hatred (HE)

IcedCrow
06-10-2013, 15:38
I'm not "the same guy" - because I did not discussed the banner.

And I don't want to compare the level of one banner or HE against everything. I have just the opinion that the DE get all the rules HE have but with some more special rules for the same price.




I'm wasn't on Ulthuan.net for a long time, so I don't know anything about what was written there.

The game is not and has not been designed at the unit level. It is designed at an army level and deals with how units wotk together to form the army, not in a black and white comparison of unit to unit and cost to cost.

You are approaching how they design the game from a want of unit to unit comparison, where all units in all books follow the same formula and are all costedin a vacuum cross books. Where units are nothing more than a mathematical stat block worth X and X remains constant across every army and every unit in the game.

That is not how this game is developed. Its one of the classical debates and complaints but it is not how the game is developed.

IcedCrow
06-10-2013, 15:48
The rest is all subjective opinion. High elves get to fight in an extra rank. They also can be synergized by a frost phoenix dropping init on the dark elves.

Dark elves get murderous prowess.

To me thats about a wash.

High elf casters are 5 points more. That is hugely minor but perhaps ward thought the high magic ward save was worth 5 points more? Who knows. That one is so minor as to not even be worth complaining about.

Not to mention high elf heavy cav is faster and dragon princes carry a ward save, a 75 pt banner, and are I6.

Im not seeing a huge disparity in the two forces to justify such rage.

Veshnakar
06-10-2013, 16:06
The rest is all subjective opinion. High elves get to fight in an extra rank. They also can be synergized by a frost phoenix dropping init on the dark elves.

Dark elves get murderous prowess.

To me thats about a wash.

High elf casters are 5 points more. That is hugely minor but perhaps ward thought the high magic ward save was worth 5 points more? Who knows. That one is so minor as to not even be worth complaining about.

Not to mention high elf heavy cav is faster and dragon princes carry a ward save, a 75 pt banner, and are I6.

Im not seeing a huge disparity in the two forces to justify such rage.

Its always been like this though. Because high elves and dark elves are supposed to be so innately similar that people naturally try to compare them as apples to apples when its really apples and oranges. The two armies work so differently now its not really sensible to compare high elf core to dark elf core and so on.

I mulled over the new dark elf book for a few days now and honestly I still dread facing high elves more than darkies with my tomb kings. A lot of the dark elf army is pathetically armored and mass amounts of shooting and magic will go a long way towards whittling the forces down. With high elves though its definitely not that easy for me. High wardsaves, high magic, botwd, and the book of hoeth, coupled with high attack with small frontage heavy armor infantry via martial prowess= really not cool.

Brotheroracle
06-10-2013, 16:13
While lastly bashing the guys on Ulthuan.net is rather snide isn't it? I think they are one of the nicest communities around, not to mention that just a handful of posters over there have more tournament and meta game insight than this entire site combined. Henceforth, lets be civil.

Wow that comment isn't snide at all :rolleyes:. Hopefully you didn't mean that how it sounds, otherwise thats pretty hypocritical.


PS. If your complaining about the BotWD you must either play Demons or just frankly put: lack skill at the game. It doesn't do anything to 80% of the metagame, yet all I see is random posters with no support just bashing it (show me on the doll where the mean ole' elf touched you :p ). If you want to bash the item because it's auto win vs. DoC and feel that it shouldn't have been made for that reason, I have no qualms. However, any other reason seems like a lazy excuse to blame your losses on, grow a pair and bring some crackers if to his proverbial (non-existent) cheese.

Now who is the fanboy? Also so much for being civil.

I always felt the main complaint is that it's too cheap for what it does. I don't have a problem with that effect if you pay the points for it. But it is far too cheap; it should of been at a price that forced a BSB to carry it. It is a cheap auto include for any White Lion horde that synergises with their resistance to shooting. If you honestly think that the only problem with that banner is that it screws over Deamons (and Wood Elves, treekin are one of the more competitive units and are magic) then I really don't know what to say.

Dr. Who
06-10-2013, 16:49
He didn't 'do' Dark Elves either. He hasn't worked on any rules for two years.

Eh? Care to elaborate?

And no, I don't think the new DE book is better or worse than the HE book as far as balance go.

- Dr.

Phazael
06-10-2013, 16:58
Demons, woodies, Tomb Kings, and a lot of dwarf and chaos dwarf builds get screwed by that banner. It also discourages fighty characters since they are shut down the moment they take a magic weapon. It creates one of the lamest builds, in the form of the WL deathstar with 75% of the armies points crammed into it. It also lets HE six dice kill spells with total impunity without risking losing large chunks of their Caucasian lion unit. That last thing alone by itself is worth well beyond the cost of the item. Hell, MR is priced at 15 per every where else, so just making something MR5 should cost 75 by itself. It is by any measure the single most overpowered item the game has ever seen. Who lacks skill again?

Abyhow, DE are probably a little too strong and the sac dagger should never have been reprinted. Witch elves are hilariously under costed for what they do, even without the cauldron. The army still compares fairly evenly to HE, though. evem if you ignore the skillbanner. HE have vastly superior special options, cavalry, arcane options, monsters, and even shooting. A unit of 15 HE bowman has a very small footprint amd can strike more consistently at a much longer range than the DE counterparts, who now cost more. Aside from that exception, the DE core decisively outclass HE core, though HE can run silver helms so the gap is not huge. HE players are just subject to mass group think (hence they nearly all run the exact same list) and whine like no other community in warhammer. I think they have a usr called AWF, Always Whine First.

Scammel
06-10-2013, 18:02
Eh? Care to elaborate?

And no, I don't think the new DE book is better or worse than the HE book as far as balance go.

- Dr.

Mat Ward hasn't written any rules for the last two years, according to the man himself.


HE players are just subject to mass group think (hence they nearly all run the exact same list) and whine like no other community in warhammer.

I do distinctly remember them giving only a single unit above a 4 in that racial survey a while back. Some users rated units such as Swordmasters and Dragon Princes as 1 out of 5. Overall, the community thought less of their book than Bretonnian players do of theirs.

IcedCrow
06-10-2013, 18:13
That i think is largely because the last time the high elves could powergame on an epic level was 5th edition

the beardless dwarf
06-10-2013, 18:23
If we look at just the army special rules, it is quite even.
High elves: ASF, ItP, martial prowess
Dark elves: ASF, harted, murderous prowess

ASF is the same, mybe more in favour for the dark elves because they have more units with I6
Harted is much better than ItP because elves already have high LD and the rerolls are always nice.
On the other hand Martial prowess is much better than murderous prowess. Rerolling 1 is not much, just like lizardmen predatory rule. You only get few more wounds in. But with martial prowess you get a whole extra rank to fight, much better in my mind :)

kaulem
06-10-2013, 18:45
rerolling 1's to wound on 15+ attacks is better (imho) than getting an extra 5/6 attacks that must hit then wound

Scammel
06-10-2013, 18:50
rerolling 1's to wound on 15+ attacks is better (imho) than getting an extra 5/6 attacks that must hit then wound

Not sure why you really need to 'IMHO' it. 20 DE Spearmen will inflict roughly 4/5 wounds on an identical unit of HE Spearmen (without armour or Hatred for ease of calculation) whilst said HE Spearmen solidly hit that 5. Minor difference, but in large units (i.e, the ones that people actually field and not in some strange land where everyone runs minimum units to try and prove a point) Martial Prowess is better.

And before anyone says anything, that example is not to prove how those two units specifically match up against each other or else I would have included Hatred.

Laniston
06-10-2013, 19:34
As far as I can tell battles between High Elves and Dark Elves are going to be, with these new books, fantastic. I think that they match up in a way that is going to force each player to really learn to use everything at their disposal. To me the books in comparison will create a great sense of tension just like it would be in "reality". I feel like the closeness in the rules is going to force dark elf and high elf generals to stretch and grow and become expert at their forces. Maybe it will even make battles against other forces seem like the opponent is in slow motion compared to fighting your rival elf faction.

I for one am excited for Dark Elf players and I want them to be able to enjoy their army and have as much fun with all the cool builds available and battles they play in as I am with my High Elves. I'll take Dark Elves on any day and have a blast. Just don't be sad when my sisters of avelorn erase your black guard unit and I won't be sad when your executioners tear up my white lions.

I Am Forsaken
06-10-2013, 21:34
OK so our game went down yesterday 2500 pts HE vs DE. I didnt get a great look in as my strigoi horde was having a good old bloodbath with some lizards, but here's what I saw/spoke to the players about after the game.

HE = 20ish Phoenix Guard with Caradryan, 20ish Swordmasters with Loremaster, 30ish Seaguard with Lvl 4 Shadow Mage, 2x15 Archers, Frost Phoenix, Flame Phoenix

DE = 30ish Corsairs with Lvl 4 Dark Sorc, 30ish Witch Elves withe 2 Death Hags (1 on Cauldron), 3 Bolt Throwers, 2x5 Warlocks, Hydra, Karybdiss (sp?)

Swords & Frost P charged Witches, Phoenix died, 5 Locks flanked, HE lost by 2, Swords ran and were caught.

Phoenix Guard and Seaguard charged and killed Witches.

Corsairs and Kary charged Phoenix Guard, Flame P Rear charged Corsairs, HE lost by 2, both broke and were ran down.

Hydra kill a unit of archers, bolt throwers and archers did not much, Warlocks cast a couple of spells and got a flank charge.

Magic didn't play a huge role, and neither did either sides special rules or unique units. Basically came down to dice rolls and maybe player mistakes.

Overall neither list was the best either side could bring.

Spiney Norman
06-10-2013, 23:18
I've read your other postings on Lizardmen, and have to say I'm not getting it at all. Played a couple games with them. Lizardmen are not in the top 25 percent. They're not as weak as Tomb Kings, but they're weaker than O&G. They can take ONE magic banner. In a non-core unit. Every single strong option in 7th got worse in some way. Nothing that was bad got better, and some things that were OK became terrible (really just skroxigor). Skinks lost leadership, Slann nerfed hard. Sallies lost march/fire. EotG nerfed (3 benefits all at once, now just none of them are useful). It's mind boggling how someone can play a game with the Lizards and say "top 1/4, yeah."

I would say if you're judging an army based on its magic banner distribution then you've failed to grasp that not all armies need a magic banner in every unit to work. As it happens I don't take any magic banners in my lizard army because I don't find the need for them. Its true they took a kick in the teeth in the strongest parts of the 7th edition book, but that is because that book was broken as hell in a few key areas. What we have now is a book that is solid across the board, I would go so far as to say that no other book is as consistent as Lizardmen, with only the troglodon being really sub-par.


For them to be in the top 25 percent/top four armies (according to what the current standings are in the power balance poll), they'd need to be more powerful than one of the following:


WoC
Skaven
Ogre Kingdoms
Dark Elves/High Elves


Quite frankly, they are not. I would argue they aren't as powerful as Vampires or Empire or O/G. They may be on par with some Daemon builds that aren't Epidemius.

I'd argue that Lizards are at least as good as high elves, which means they are presumably at least as good as dark elves if the books we as similar as they appear. I've yet to lose a game to high elves, in fact I've yet to even break a sweat when playing them. In my experience high elf armies rely too much on broken toys to be competitive which ususally means the silverhelms bus with the world dragon banner and frost Phoenixes, which Lizardmen can both circumvent relatively easily. The only problem that high elves can throw up to my lizards is a large unit of dragon banner white lions, and salamanders can usually manage to deal with them before they get close.

As an O&G player the idea that Lizards are less competitive than them is laughable, even the most competitive O&G builds are inferior to a balanced Lizard army. The greatest strength IMHO of the Lizard list is that it has good answers to the strongest parts of the curnt metagame; Monsterous units, esp monstrous cavalry, and no question they absolutely knock daemons out of the park.

Kahadras
06-10-2013, 23:18
Demons, woodies, Tomb Kings, and a lot of dwarf and chaos dwarf builds get screwed by that banner. It also discourages fighty characters since they are shut down the moment they take a magic weapon. It creates one of the lamest builds, in the form of the WL deathstar with 75% of the armies points crammed into it. It also lets HE six dice kill spells with total impunity without risking losing large chunks of their Caucasian lion unit. That last thing alone by itself is worth well beyond the cost of the item. Hell, MR is priced at 15 per every where else, so just making something MR5 should cost 75 by itself. It is by any measure the single most overpowered item the game has ever seen. Who lacks skill again?


HE players are just subject to mass group think (hence they nearly all run the exact same list) and whine like no other community in warhammer. I think they have a usr called AWF, Always Whine First.

:eyebrows:

I have to admit that I did raise my eyebrows when I saw that DE were getting ASF and would get Hatred against HE. Then I remembered that I could take the Banner of the World Dragon on my horde of White Lions, IF spells every turn and put two Frostheart Phoenix on the table (all of which I always take because, as a High Elf player, I'm subject to mass group think). I also planned to rush straight on here and complain about how OP Dark Elves were with precisely 0 games played against them.

On a serious note I'm quite pleased that Gw seem to be making Dark Elves more dangerous in combat. The guy who played DE at our club used to turn up with a Level 4 Sorceress, about a million repeater crossbows, shades with repeater crossbows, Dark Riders with repeater crossbows and a full battery of Bolt Throwers with the reasoning that HE were much better in close combat. The main complaint I have about Dark Elves is Ģ35 for 10 core infantry models which aren't all that to look at. WTF GW?

Shadeseraph
07-10-2013, 03:03
All right, I'm one of the guys that initially got... let's say angry about the DE releases. I have to fully admit it's got nothing to do with balance, and tons with 1) me thoroughly hating DE (not their players... sorry, not all their players) and whishing them the worst book ever, 2) because of 1), disliking the solid amounts of 1ups the book delivers on high elves. A mirror Fast cav unit with a better shooting weapon and access to shields for no reason, Shades getting access to great weapons and dual weapons, RBTs in special, the cloak thingie, the banner in core thingie (though after thinking a bit I can see one very valid reason to not allow SH to get magical banners...), and, of course, Hatred VS Valour of the Ages.

This doesn't mean these things make DE much better than HE, though. It doesn't even mean DE vs HE matches are going to be unbalanced on either side. After giving it some though, the DE seems more or less decently balanced externally (not so sure about internal balance, though, I'll talk about that one later). It's just that, in my absolutely not un-biased mind, DE SHOULD be worse than HE.

My point is: Despite what many people say, DE and HE are actually quite similar in gameplay. More or less squishy elite troops, strong magic phases, mediocre shooting, lack of decent warmachines, very solid chaff, and a couple big gribblies to add color (and which lately get all the attention. The older books made this a bit less stringent by making the average DE weaker but cheaper and the average HE stronger but more expensive. This one, however, reduces drastically the existing differences. There are still some divergences: DE have better access to shooting and chaff, while HE have better cavalry, and so on, but comparisons are unavoidable. As such, both armies fill the same niche... and that alienates people and factions against each other.

It also helps that I'd give an arm and a leg (or, in this case, a bird and a flag, even if that means I'm losing in the exchange) for a HE version of those Warlocks. The rules, not the models or the background, mind you. I'd miss frostie, but I'd be happy to say good ridance to the useless piece of text the BotWD is wasting on my book.

That said, more critically, I have to admit both books are fairly matched: Many of the biggest draws of the old DE book have been removed or stealth nerfed:
-The level of the nerf on the hydra is actually worth the status of troll.
-The dagger is actually far less interesting than it was: You are now, at the very least, sacrificing 50% more points, and it still has yet another 50% possibility of not working. Those dice become VERY expensive VERY fast.
-RXB cost now a couple points more than they costed before, which go to pay ASF and MP... both of which do not help in regards to their true role.
-The whole army still lacks solid tools to deal with solid armor... and their old tools against those have got largely nerfed. Their magic is but a shadow of what it was (:D), and the khardibyss is not good enough to plug the hole left bythe old hydra. The only remaining reliable tool are executioners and RBTs, which got far better.
-The cauldron, one of the best buffers in the game, is now very restricted in the way it works, and costs a hand and a leg.
-The army lost a huge deal of its old durability due to the price increase with no improvement on defensive abilities. Up until now, they could soak casualties through being largely underpriced and dynamic allocation of cauldron ward saves.

All in all: They got killier... in the areas they were already killy enough. Actually, WE on core makes them laugh at things like Sphinxes, which feels like bullying. At least TK can shoot them out of the table.

What is my problem as a non-biased player? limited internal balance.
-For starters, they have the same issues in core than HE: Different units are as good as their role. You can certainly use spears... but you could just as easily spend those points on Witches/Silver Helms. In fact, the thing with WE is that there is even less of an incentive to pick spears over them, because their role and cost is similar enough. RXB and Dark riders will still be picked because they have their own roles, but competitively I don't see too many people taking spears or corsairs.
-Second, Special. Executioners, RBTs, Shades and, to a lesser extent, hydras, are so much better than anything else you can find there, and they are actually the best option against the large amount of armored targets you find in the current meta. BG are just overpriced, there aren't too many reasons to pick CoK over Hydras due to their price increase. Shades are straight up awesome: solid chaff removers, competent combatants, powerful shooters... They are the Jack of All Trades done well. Maybe too well. Ask Harpies. The CoC is not a bad deal... but in the same vein than CoK, it is overshadowed by Hydras. And so on.
-The hero and Lord slots both have the same problem: Nothing holds a candle to the basic caster or fighter. At least the Loremaster and the Annointed were worth it.
-And, finaly, Rare: 25% points to spend on Warlocks are too many points, specially when you are limited to 2 Rare choices. Khardibyss are decent, and may see play thanks to their cost, but Sisters have the huge problem of competing with a very well costed unit in core for the same role. I can see a couple as support, but their fragility will be a deterrent for many DE players.

Sooo... In my opinion, most competitive armies will be something like this:
Core: some dark rider units and a large unit of WE with Razor Banner and possibly Cauldron.
Special: 3-4xRBT, large unit or two of executioners, maybe some shades or Hydras.
Rare: Khardibyss, Warlocks.

SteveW
07-10-2013, 07:20
So everyone loves WE's now? Don't they still have no save and T3? So they die to literally anything stronger than a cool breeze. I think Corsairs are the way to go with the new core for DE's. Also, the monsters are kinda junk now so don't take em.

Lord Solar Plexus
07-10-2013, 07:47
So you think the Dark Elves should have simply reprinted the High Elves book with (perhaps) a grimmer cover?

So you've taken a nap during reading class? Or are you and other posters just putting words in the OP's mouth as a pastime?



I would say nothing if DE are better than HE but with more points.


I'd take HE spears vs DE spears any day because of martial prowess. You get a whole extra rank of attacks every round vs. their reroll in the first.

And re-rolling wounds all rounds. Even so, a re-roll is usually better - especially when it is considerably cheaper, as DE don't have to take as many models to use their rule.


High elves are no where no being a low tier army.

Perhaps, but that is not the topic of this thread - it's a question about game design.

Let's assume Bretonnians get a unit of WS 4 stubborn full plate Ld 8 foot Knights with great weapons for 11 points per nose with an inbuilt ward. Pretty sure Empire players would be pretty pissed, and rightly so (and it wouldn't be about tiers or winning either).

---
There are quite a lot of useful cheap magic banners btw.

Soundwave
07-10-2013, 09:26
It is actually rather well balanced.Dark elves always suffer due to a basic 6" range the high elves have.
I play this scenario out" more times than i can remember and i ,a dark elf player am usually pinned on the way toward my oppenent basically where i stand.
People seem to be way to infatuated with stars nowdays,yet the dynamics have changed.

cptcosmic
07-10-2013, 09:46
:eyebrows:

I have to admit that I did raise my eyebrows when I saw that DE were getting ASF and would get Hatred against HE. Then I remembered that I could take the Banner of the World Dragon on my horde of White Lions, IF spells every turn and put two Frostheart Phoenix on the table (all of which I always take because, as a High Elf player, I'm subject to mass group think). I also planned to rush straight on here and complain about how OP Dark Elves were with precisely 0 games played against them.
on the other hand the BotWD + book + phoenix is the only way to compete with other armies. the tournament results speak for themself.

and most people dont get the whole picture. HE players are not "whining" because DE are stronger, HE players are just angry because the DE book is just an insult to HE players. the DE book is alot more nice, better thought out with the internal balance. on the contrary there are alot of restrictions in the HE army book that actually makes no sense that do not appear in the DE book... to list a few slaps in the face to HE players:
-No mundane 1+ or 2+ for HE BSB unless on mount
-DE army wide rules synergises better with an elite army.
-DE combat characters are just better for the same costs due to wound rerolls and access to sea dragon cloak.
-DE mages are cheaper if I am not mistaken for no reason
-HE Handmaiden being unable to be the BSB
-HE core units cant take banners except a single spear unit
-HE Reavers being inferior to DE Dark Riders AGAIN for unknown reason. the IoB have barding and nice armor but for some reason they did not give it to them as option
-HE Shadow Warriors being inferior to DE Shades AGAIN for unknown reason
-HE Lion Chariot being inferior to the DE cold one chariot imho
-DE get a unit that can cast spells out of nowhere. If am not mistaken, this was asked for by HE players. it would make alot of sense for Swordmasters, they are after all training combat and some also magic. instead HE players got an expensive lord that has hard time against lvl4 lords in the magic phase. to add more insult, Swordmasters, one of the most skilled warriors in the HE arsenal, training for ages for melee can parry arrows but not melee attacks :rolleyes:
-DE lore synergises alot better with the army
-in a DE vs HE fight, WL and SM are totally outclassed without a phoenix

DE is just another army where HE players have to auto include all the crutches in the HE arsenal (banner + book + phoenix) to compete, which isnt a good game design at all.

Rake
07-10-2013, 11:48
I get a lot of the grief of High Elf players regarding the Dark Elf book. Its this stupid schism in G.W. mentality between their games designers, some want complete combos, some cut the combo short cause it would be "OP".
Example: Malus Darkblade has a 1+ save, Kurt Hellborg a 2+ even though a shield would make him 1+.
Sea Dragon Cloak vs White Lion cloak, etc.
Swordmasters vs. Sisters of Slaughter, etc.

These don't have a real impact in the game but they annoy the crap out of somebody.

On the other hand having the BEASTMASTER army and not a single monster that can dream of sniffing the Phoenix's toes in terms of effectiveness can be annoying. As can having the points of your blackguard increase by 2 for NO REASON whatsoever or the cauldron nerved to oblivion. Or our Rare choice emptied out so that the sisters of slaughter are the only real choice in there along with the moving of witch elves to Core to encourage the sale of the single most Overpriced box in GW history (to date obviously... poor Dwarves and their combo kits) can also be annoying. Ultimately I think in casual gaming terms the dark elves are more powerful than the HE (aided in VERY large part by the Hatred rule). But in powerbuilds and tournament play they will lag behind the high elf cousins.

ewar
07-10-2013, 13:29
on the other hand the BotWD + book + phoenix is the only way to compete with other armies. the tournament results speak for themself.

and most people dont get the whole picture. HE players are not "whining" because DE are stronger, HE players are just angry because the DE book is just an insult to HE players. the DE book is alot more nice, better thought out with the internal balance. on the contrary there are alot of restrictions in the HE army book that actually makes no sense that do not appear in the DE book... to list a few slaps in the face to HE players:
-No mundane 1+ or 2+ for HE BSB unless on mount
-DE army wide rules synergises better with an elite army.
-DE combat characters are just better for the same costs due to wound rerolls and access to sea dragon cloak.
-DE mages are cheaper if I am not mistaken for no reason
-HE Handmaiden being unable to be the BSB
-HE core units cant take banners except a single spear unit
-HE Reavers being inferior to DE Dark Riders AGAIN for unknown reason. the IoB have barding and nice armor but for some reason they did not give it to them as option
-HE Shadow Warriors being inferior to DE Shades AGAIN for unknown reason
-HE Lion Chariot being inferior to the DE cold one chariot imho
-DE get a unit that can cast spells out of nowhere. If am not mistaken, this was asked for by HE players. it would make alot of sense for Swordmasters, they are after all training combat and some also magic. instead HE players got an expensive lord that has hard time against lvl4 lords in the magic phase. to add more insult, Swordmasters, one of the most skilled warriors in the HE arsenal, training for ages for melee can parry arrows but not melee attacks :rolleyes:
-DE lore synergises alot better with the army
-in a DE vs HE fight, WL and SM are totally outclassed without a phoenix

DE is just another army where HE players have to auto include all the crutches in the HE arsenal (banner + book + phoenix) to compete, which isnt a good game design at all.

/slow hand clap/

I think you may have just validated a lot of opinions about HE players with your post - I'm hope you'll find less sympathy here than on Ulthuan.net.

- You're complaining about a 5pt difference? Really? Maybe he thought that was because you can give your units a 5+ ward with high magic.
- Is it even confirmed DE lords/nobles can take the SDC? I have read it was only available to Fleetmaster or Beastmaster. Does it really matter? Very few armies can get a mundane 1+ save on an unmounted model (in fact, I can't think of any?)
- Reavers might be worse than Dark Riders, but you still have access to Eagles. The armies should NOT be carbon copies of each other.
- can you point me to some batreps which support your assertions that the lore synergises a lot better?

I find it hilarious you think you should have a magic casting unit 'because we asked first'; my two year old constructs more convincing arguments.

FYI I don't play High or Dark elves, but play against them both very regularly. The new DE book is a significant nerf to their overrall power so there really is no need to feel "angry" because they got some different options than you. Honestly, take a step back and look at the big picture, rules changes come and go, units get more or less powerful over time. Just play an army you like for fluff, models, game play reasons and focus less on what others get, it'll make you happier in the long run.

Scammel
07-10-2013, 13:33
to add more insult, Swordmasters, one of the most skilled warriors in the HE arsenal, training for ages for melee can parry arrows but not melee attacks


Methinks someone doesn't quite understand game mechanics. You know that WS stat? The one that's really high for Swordmasters?

IcedCrow
07-10-2013, 13:51
Methinks someone doesn't quite understand game mechanics. You know that WS stat? The one that's really high for Swordmasters?

I think instead what he's after is another ward save built into another unit for all attacks.

cptcosmic
07-10-2013, 13:59
/slow hand clap/

I think you may have just validated a lot of opinions about HE players with your post - I'm hope you'll find less sympathy here than on Ulthuan.net.

- You're complaining about a 5pt difference? Really? Maybe he thought that was because you can give your units a 5+ ward with high magic.
- Is it even confirmed DE lords/nobles can take the SDC? I have read it was only available to Fleetmaster or Beastmaster. Does it really matter? Very few armies can get a mundane 1+ save on an unmounted model (in fact, I can't think of any?)
- Reavers might be worse than Dark Riders, but you still have access to Eagles. The armies should NOT be carbon copies of each other.
- can you point me to some batreps which support your assertions that the lore synergises a lot better?

I find it hilarious you think you should have a magic casting unit 'because we asked first'; my two year old constructs more convincing arguments.

FYI I don't play High or Dark elves, but play against them both very regularly. The new DE book is a significant nerf to their overrall power so there really is no need to feel "angry" because they got some different options than you. Honestly, take a step back and look at the big picture, rules changes come and go, units get more or less powerful over time. Just play an army you like for fluff, models, game play reasons and focus less on what others get, it'll make you happier in the long run.
nice cherry picking from yet another average warseer poster with tunnelvision syndrome. if you do not understand something, why do you bother to post? I will let you figure out by yourself why you are missing the point, once you find out you can come back and post valid arguments :rolleyes:


Methinks someone doesn't quite understand game mechanics. You know that WS stat? The one that's really high for Swordmasters?
what does what I wrote have to do with WS? absolutely nothing. the point is that some limitations in the HE book make no sense. some of those limitations promote crutches that seem to be implemented on purpose and those limitations are lifted in the DE book thus the DE book is overall better designed than the HE book. this has absolutely nothing to do with unit profiles or relative strength of the book.

Nubl0
07-10-2013, 15:11
Do people want these armies to be mirror images? Why aren't the DE combat characters aloud to be better, why are the dark riders not allowed to be superior to the reavers?

Soundwave
07-10-2013, 15:32
Yes,yes the sky has fallen on the high elves with the new Dark Elves book.
"Suck it up princess" .

BramGaunt
07-10-2013, 15:33
Do people want these armies to be mirror images? Why aren't the DE combat characters aloud to be better, why are the dark riders not allowed to be superior to the reavers?

In the case of High Elves and Dark Elves, yes. These armies are the same people, and should only differ in choice of units. I'm complaining about the decisions that were made.

Why did all rare units got moved from the DE rare slot, while Great Eagles and Bolt Throwers are still rare for High Elves? Especially with the Bolt Thrower that's downright unfair. DE outperform High Elves on shooting anyway, but it's a lot easier to make room in the special slot, as opposed to the rare slot.

Why is the Repeater Crossbow, which is superior in any way, the same points on basically the same model as the Bow? I agree that Reavers and Black Riders are the same unit, and thus cost the same points. But Bows are more then less useless, while Repeater Crossbows pose a threat to anything without a 1+ AS.

Why is the Sorcerer less points, but the surpreme sorceress the same? This is outright stupid.

Why is the Corsair the same points as Seaguard, even though they outperform them in anything?

I consider both Armybooks to be good (for Mat Ward, they are outright perfect), but it just seems that he put a lot more thought into Dark Elves, the internal balance of the book is just great. The problem is that I see multiple themed competative builts in one book, and only one in the other. Without Frosty High Elves are outright screwed agains Dark Elves. I play both armies with a passion, and am still sad for both of them. Dark Elves will get a lot of crap for this book, not only from hgh elves.

IcedCrow
07-10-2013, 15:56
that's downright unfair

It sucks having to make decisions on what to take in your army instead of having army lists that write themselves (which is a typical staple of mat ward books so its odd he's actually gone this way) but I can't agree with you sorry. RBTs being special on dark elves instead of rare makes sense to me because the dark elves are more of a pirate race and as such naval units and weaponry would be more accessible... even though they are the same machine, the dark elves having them as uncommon as opposed to rare doesn't make me blink one bit because it makes sense to me.

They don't write the lists in a vacuum.

Bows useless, repeating crossbows a threat. Right. There's that hyperbolic word "useless". I guess I'd need that one more or less explained to me how bows have no worth but repeating crossbows are somehow several steps above them.

Same strength. Bows have longer reach. HE archers can fire in an additional rank.

Not seeing the useless here sorry. I see a wailing and gnashing of teeth because the two books aren't exact copies of each other, and I'm thankful for that and I see the two books as being quite solid.

BramGaunt
07-10-2013, 16:07
It sucks having to make decisions on what to take in your army instead of having army lists that write themselves (which is a typical staple of mat ward books so its odd he's actually gone this way) but I can't agree with you sorry. RBTs being special on dark elves instead of rare makes sense to me because the dark elves are more of a pirate race and as such naval units and weaponry would be more accessible... even though they are the same machine, the dark elves having them as uncommon as opposed to rare doesn't make me blink one bit because it makes sense to me.

They don't write the lists in a vacuum.

Bows useless, repeating crossbows a threat. Right. There's that hyperbolic word "useless". I guess I'd need that one more or less explained to me how bows have no worth but repeating crossbows are somehow several steps above them.

Same strength. Bows have longer reach. HE archers can fire in an additional rank.

Not seeing the useless here sorry. I see a wailing and gnashing of teeth because the two books aren't exact copies of each other, and I'm thankful for that and I see the two books as being quite solid.

High Elves have the biggest, bestequippend and bestfunded Navy in the entire Warhammer World. Also, Repeater Botlthrowers are not manned by corsairs, but by warriors.

I was not talking about the Longbow, but the Bow. On Ellyrian reavers. So the bow is the same range, same strength, but lacks armourpiercing and the potential to fire multiple shots. 5 shots S3 don't bother anyone in 8th. 5-10 shots S3 with armourpiercing however pose a threat even to heavy cavallry, as long as it's not running a 1+ AS. The chance to kill a knight is double for Black Riders, at the same points.

theunwantedbeing
07-10-2013, 16:11
Same strength. Bows have longer reach. HE archers can fire in an additional rank.

Not seeing the useless here sorry.

It's usless because everyone plays the battle where you deploy 24" apart.
Nobody ever needs to be able to shoot further than 24", so they're paying extra for no benefit.

Also firing in an extra rank just means you have to pay 50% more to benefit from that rule...because changing formation is forbidden.
Also everyone knows that it's impossible to deploy a shooting unit in more than 3 ranks, because then they have to be 10 wide or they don't benefit from the horde rule...which they need because everyone is deployed no further than 24" apart.

See, 100% usless and my logic is as exactly as watertight.

Soundwave
07-10-2013, 16:22
High Elves have the biggest, bestequippend and bestfunded Navy in the entire Warhammer World. Also, Repeater Botlthrowers are not manned by corsairs, but by warriors.

I was not talking about the Longbow, but the Bow. On Ellyrian reavers. So the bow is the same range, same strength, but lacks armourpiercing and the potential to fire multiple shots. 5 shots S3 don't bother anyone in 8th. 5-10 shots S3 with armourpiercing however pose a threat even to heavy cavallry, as long as it's not running a 1+ AS. The chance to kill a knight is double for Black Riders, at the same points.
Dark Elves have "Black Arks"a floating castle held aloft by magic and pulled along by a sea leviathan? How do High Elves have the best navy?

BramGaunt
07-10-2013, 16:24
Dark Elves have "Black Arks"a floating castle held aloft by magic and pulled along by a sea leviathan? How do High Elves have the best navy?

Black Arks are only pulled out when Dark Elves go to all out War. High Elves command a great many sea creatures themselves, and use Dragons on their boats like Gunships.

IcedCrow
07-10-2013, 16:25
I would say that as the rbt is rare for high elves that means the high elves do not deploy them in their armies as much as dark elves. I don't know of any fluff that says that the high elves have the best navy in the entire world and that the repeating bolt thrower is a common theme in their armies. We know that the elven armies have strong navies. That's about the extent of it. Any further reading into the fluff would be just that... reading into it to try and justify our opinion.

You agreeing or disagreeing with that notion is fine either way but regardless, it is as such. The rules are black and white. Dark Elf RBTs are more common in their armies than High Elf RBTs. That really is a minor thing to rage at IMO.

Armies are not designed in a vacuum. The two books are not mirrors. Thats really what the complaint is about.

Cant agree with it. Im glad they arent mirror.

Soundwave
07-10-2013, 16:32
It's usless because everyone plays the battle where you deploy 24" apart.
Nobody ever needs to be able to shoot further than 24", so they're paying extra for no benefit.

Also firing in an extra rank just means you have to pay 50% more to benefit from that rule...because changing formation is forbidden.
Also everyone knows that it's impossible to deploy a shooting unit in more than 3 ranks, because then they have to be 10 wide or they don't benefit from the horde rule...which they need because everyone is deployed no further than 24" apart.

See, 100% usless and my logic is as exactly as watertight.
Did i miss that rule in the brb,where 24 " apart is essential?When i play High Elves my opponent usually deploys 6" back to make optimum and effective use of his archer units.:)

IcedCrow
07-10-2013, 17:03
Did i miss that rule in the brb,where 24 " apart is essential?When i play High Elves my opponent usually deploys 6" back to make optimum and effective use of his archer units.:)

Well typically when arguing from hyperbole, the arguments will also be based on assumptions made in vacuums to prove a point. Soundwave's example is an example of sarcastic hyperbole being used to prove a point :D

cptcosmic
07-10-2013, 17:16
Dark Elves have "Black Arks"a floating castle held aloft by magic and pulled along by a sea leviathan? How do High Elves have the best navy?
as far as I know HE ships are alive, they are made from treeman formed by magic and the biggest ships are huge because they are made out of huge treeman, carrying dragons and RBT as weaponry.

also those black arks only move out in war, not for raiding...

Scammel
07-10-2013, 17:34
what does what I wrote have to do with WS? absolutely nothing.

The ability to deflect blows is represented by being harder to hit with a higher WS...

cptcosmic
07-10-2013, 18:43
The ability to deflect blows is represented by being harder to hit with a higher WS...
this has nothing to do with parry special rule at all, nor does it have anything to do with the point I provided all the tunnelvision kids seem to miss

BlackPawl
07-10-2013, 18:46
I don't think that many will understand the point:

HE are not whining about the DE book or say that it is the new powerbook of 8th edition. But they get more "toys" to play with then the HE book. That would be Ok if the one is an old book and the other is just released, but both are new and we have to live with them the next few years. I would have expect more internal balance between the two book.

It is not a competition between HE and DE against all other books, but between these two book.

Imagine there would be another new book "Order of Good". Core troops would have WS5, S/T 4, Ini 4, 2A, a 4+ AS and some upgrades like -1 to hit or something else - but with the special rule "hatred (chaos)" - all for the same price as a Chaos warrior.
And they would have a warmachines from dwarves with a 5++ ward, good stats like an monster and a S5 template - but it is now in special (because they use it more often than chaos warriors their own machine), also for the same price - would you think that chaos player would say: hey, it's nice that you have it too but better. :cool:

The same could be done for all other armies too. Look at the list from cptcosmic for all the "nice" things which difference between HE and DE.
And it can not be the answer "but they have the phoenix and the banner"!

I don't want a mirrow book, but it would be fine if HE would have get some more toys like the DE brothers. I don't want to have a frenzy unit in my HE army, but if you have many good rules in one book (stubborn, more units with Ini6 / S4, armour piercing, more units with a 4++ save, better armor, more attacks, frenzy, killing blow, dark pegasi for wizards etc.) and the other book is a little "empty" then it is not balanced.


That means that HE can have only one build because all other choices are worse? We have to play with the Everqueen, the banner (which will have nearly 0 effect against DE if they are in close combat), two F-phoenix and a horde of White lions?
That would be as if you play against vampire before they get their new book - (nearly) all vampire armies looked the same and this was boring.

Scammel
07-10-2013, 18:47
this has nothing to do with parry special rule at all

Except when, you know, you block incoming attacks with your weapon.


And it can not be the answer "but they have the phoenix and the banner"!


Okay, you can't comment on Murderous Prowess or Hatred: HE. Only fair if we're going to discuss armies by arbitrarily taking bits out of them.

BlackPawl
07-10-2013, 18:59
Okay, you can't comment on Murderous Prowess or Hatred: HE. Only fair if we're going to discuss armies by arbitrarily taking bits out of them.

I think that it is a big difference if there are one or two good toys / unit in one book and in the other book there is a army wide rule and many more special rules.

In comped tournaments I have seen restrictions for the book / banner / F-phoenix. But I don't think that there will ever a comp against such rules like in the DE book. And when I play with my HE against DE I don't want to think "it's better for the same price but I'm happy because they are no mirrowed books" *fnord*

I want to have fun and as far as I can see HE is a good book but DE get more love (more toys, more special rules etc.).

Voss
07-10-2013, 19:08
I think that it is a big difference if there are one or two good toys / unit in one book and in the other book there is a army wide rule and many more special rules.

And... we're back to pretending that half the high elf book doesn't exist. High elves have lots of good toys. Like a 4++ block unit that can be raised to 3++. You keep bringing up the idea that 'DE have two 4++ units,' but ignore their limitations. They are both small, fragile and in the rare slot, and aren't designed as an anvil unit. 4++ is the only thing that gives them any durability at all, and they aren't viable in large numbers. The warlocks especially aren't bad units, but they aren't an equivalent to phoenix guard in any way- they have a vastly different function and purpose.

HE, as you say, is a good book. You can have fun with it. Having a knee-jerk jealous reaction about some totally-in-a-vacuum special rules in the DE book doesn't stop you.

Kahadras
07-10-2013, 19:10
on the other hand the BotWD + book + phoenix is the only way to compete with other armies. the tournament results speak for themselves


DE is just another army where HE players have to auto include all the crutches in the HE arsenal (banner + book + phoenix) to compete, which isnt a good game design at all.

If people feel they need to use the Banner/book/Phoenix combo then I doubt an underpowered DE army book is somehow going to change things.

I'm very doubtful that the idea of a big block of White Lions + BotWD + Archmage + Book + Frostheart Phoenix is actualy as good as people make out. Against an army that relies on magical damage it's going to do well but there are plenty of armies out there which don't.

Kahadras

Scammel
07-10-2013, 19:37
Which is why I tend to see Alarielle taken over an Archmage to handle that 'Don't' part - 3+ AS against shooting and 5++/2++ is very nice. Not to mention 6-dice Dwellers every possible turn with little-to-no repercussions FTW!

Dr.Zahnfleisch
07-10-2013, 20:08
GW will most likely not make any changes past release just to please the HE demographic. It has never been GW's intent to create a perfectly balanced game and there are lots of army books that are way worse off than High Elves. Right now this bickering is nothing but pathetic. If you (and your local gaming community) think that the rules are unfair, feel free to use house rules. If you think that you won't be able to play successfully in tournaments using High Elves, choose another book.

IcedCrow
07-10-2013, 20:18
I guess it comes down to a point of who really cares? If an "order of good" book came out that was the mirror of the chaos book and it had "more toys", I honestly wouldn't care.

There are a lot more things out there to worry about than "the dark elf book has more cool toys than the high elves do!! RAGE!!!! {tears shirt off Hulk-Hogan style to show off man-boobs jiggling in anger so you get my point}"

Especially when whether or not that they do is highly debatable.

If you find the dark elf book has more cool things about it then the high elf book does, then buy the dark elf book and collect them. If that is unacceptable, then counts-as with your high elf models. If that is unacceptable, write a fan-dex that shows how much better you can do and be prepared to have it torn apart in the merciless internet wargaming underground.

Kahadras
07-10-2013, 20:28
Which is why I tend to see Alarielle taken over an Archmage to handle that 'Don't' part - 3+ AS against shooting and 5++/2++ is very nice. Not to mention 6-dice Dwellers every possible turn with little-to-no repercussions FTW

Granted that you manage to roll up Dwellers, roll high enough on the magic dice to be able to 6 dice it, manage to get the double 6 and hope the resulting miscast doesn't see you forgetting the spell or take Alarielle off the table.

I'd certainly like to play games where stuff that gets described like this actualy happens. I'd love to roll up Dwellers every time I use Lore of Life. I'd love to have 6+ power dice every turn, get that double six every turn and some how avoid rolling up anything bad on the miscast table.

Scammel
07-10-2013, 20:43
Granted that you manage to roll up Dwellers, roll high enough on the magic dice to be able to 6 dice it, manage to get the double 6 and hope the resulting miscast doesn't see you forgetting the spell or take Alarielle off the table.

I'd certainly like to play games where stuff that gets described like this actualy happens. I'd love to roll up Dwellers every time I use Lore of Life. I'd love to have 6+ power dice every turn, get that double six every turn and some how avoid rolling up anything bad on the miscast table.

Aren't the odds of getting a given spell with a level 4 somewhere in the region of 80-90%? You'll note I did qualify my statement though - 'Every turn possible' and 'More often than not'. IR may not be happening every turn but it's up the air as to whether one can dispel it or not. My regular HE opponent does this all the time and most turns it works out exactly as described.

TheDungen
07-10-2013, 20:43
If the DE book is stronger than the HE one, I'm glad it is, that means all those annoying bandwaggoners go play that instead. Leaving the HE for people who actually like HE.

Kahadras
07-10-2013, 21:29
You'll note I did qualify my statement though - 'Every turn possible' and 'More often than not'. IR may not be happening every turn but it's up the air as to whether one can dispel it or not. My regular HE opponent does this all the time and most turns it works out exactly as described.

I did note that you qualified your statement but I still am amazed that people seem to pull this kind of stuff off regularly. If the chances of getting Dwellers is around 90% then there's going to be 10% of games where the whole plan falls apart at the first hurdle. Something as simple as a couple of low rolls for Magic/Dispel dice and a Dispel scroll could throw a spanner in the works. Even the IF's themselves can screw Alarielle over. Does this HE player never roll a Power Drain or Dimensional Cascade?

IcedCrow
07-10-2013, 21:41
Dimensional cascades are very rare. At least in my experience.

Kahadras
07-10-2013, 21:48
Dimensional cascades are very rare. At least in my experience.

Well if you're throwing an IF every turn surely Power Drain and Dimensional Cascade are going to crop up. I don't like the idea that being in a unit with BotWD is suddenly consequence free miscasting. I've played enough games where my Archmage has disappeared into the Relms of Chaos or forgotten his best spells when I'm not aiming for an IF spell a turn.

innerwolf
07-10-2013, 22:03
The only thing I find stupid is DE getting Light and Life lores. It doesn't make any sense form a fluff point of view, and feels absolutely forced and gamey. You need atunement to a certain wind of magic to use it. And Dark Elves aren't attuned to them by their culture, beleifs and way of life.

sysy16
07-10-2013, 22:14
Man this is a little bit embarrassing how much some folk are getting worked up about the new DE book.

As a 20+ years player who has collected almost every army and lavished the most attention on my High Elves, my favourite of all, I see little things in the DE book that irritate me. Shields for dark riders but still fast cav, all the core inf options have magic banner choice. Shades being scouts with great weapons... why? But some of this is the problem with the HE book. Perhaps one core unit could take a 25points banner in the HE book instead of just spears. Maybe barding for Reavers (like the models in IOB have) or Shadow warriors with AHWs ? But this is the problem with the HE book, not the DE one.

I have played one battle against the new book. My sister loves Dark Elves and was delighted they got ASF..

I hate ASF rule on armies, including my beloved Asur. But we fought a 2500 points battle and the result was a thumping win for the Asur. (she may still be getting to grips with them to be fair)

Phoenix Guard, Eagles, Silver Helms, the book and of course the Frostie bird. The increase in points for the DE makes a difference. They lost the most annoying thing - the pendant. The dagger is very unreliable (she wasted a number of spears with failing to roll the 4+). They lost banner of murder for 25 points, they lost the chucking tonnes of dice at spells. I think our magic items are way more useful. Star lance, check, Golden Helm, ace., book of Hoeth, trumps. Forget the banner of WD. It causes so much rage I either don't take it or offer to play it as a simple MR 3 banner with the dragon stubborn rule.

Yes, its annoying that units like Sword Masters (probably my favourite unit) frankly get minced by even corsairs but the rage really is OTT.

Stop moaning and figure out how to win using your book. for goodness sake, image how it feels to be Asari!!!

sysy16
07-10-2013, 22:22
The only thing I find stupid is DE getting Light and Life lores. It doesn't make any sense form a fluff point of view, and feels absolutely forced and gamey. You need atunement to a certain wind of magic to use it. And Dark Elves aren't attuned to them by their culture, beleifs and way of life.

Yes, I agree with this.... I always felt DE in theory will know all the winds but in practice not be interested in using them. Perhaps though, death does not sound too High elf though.....

I suppose arguments can be made for why the DE have access to all 8 but it just feels wrong.

gd09garett
07-10-2013, 22:31
Dark Elves have "Black Arks"a floating castle held aloft by magic and pulled along by a sea leviathan? How do High Elves have the best navy?

Actually in the new fluff all of Ulthuan is floating via magic, so it can be argued that the entire High Elven nation is part of its navy.

Drasanil
07-10-2013, 22:40
The only thing I find stupid is DE getting Light and Life lores. It doesn't make any sense form a fluff point of view, and feels absolutely forced and gamey. You need atunement to a certain wind of magic to use it. And Dark Elves aren't attuned to them by their culture, beleifs and way of life.

Makes perfect sense for them to be able to use from a fluff perspective and they should have always been able to. If you can channel raw Dhar you can channel light or life because they are each a part of raw Dhar. It's only humans that need to be attuned to a specific wind and even at that it's not a necessity so much as the sane thing to do unless you want to end up frying your brain or get corrupted.

As for culture and beliefs... what exactly would prevent them from having an interest in being able to heal people and themselves or having the right tools to handle finicky daemons? Despite being overall 'evil' DE are still supposed to have a functional society and guess what most societies tend to need healers and such. Think of it this way, DE Sorceress with Lore of Life would have a role in DE society comparable to the Haemonculi of the Dark Eldar, minus the extra wacky out there 40k stuff like full on resurrections and such.

ewar
07-10-2013, 22:40
nice cherry picking from yet another average warseer poster with tunnelvision syndrome. if you do not understand something, why do you bother to post? I will let you figure out by yourself why you are missing the point, once you find out you can come back and post valid arguments :rolleyes:

This is frankly embarrassing and I'm not entirely convinced you know what tunnel vision means. In my post I suggested you look at the bigger picture (kind of the opposite of tunnel vision) so you can appreciate the way each army works on as a whole entity, instead of comparing unit to unit, which is fruitless.

But if you insist on doing it your way I would immediately say:

- HE got Loremaster and annointed who both are at least useful, the Fleetmaster and Beastmaster are nowhere near as good
- HE got OP frostphoenix, DE hydra got nerfed hard, it's just so UNFAIR
- DE lost the ability to cast on >6 dice, HE got BoH it's EVEN MORE UNFAIR
- HE get really useful eagles, we only have rubbish expensive harpies, DE book SUCKS
- HE get core heavy cavalry, that IS SO OP

See? not big, not clever.

loveless
07-10-2013, 22:40
Actually in the new fluff all of Ulthuan is floating via magic, so it can be argued that the entire High Elven nation is part of its navy.

Now I just want to see the Phoenix King driving the continent of Ulthuan into the Empire because he was really craving some Marienburger Meat Pies.

Mithrilherz
07-10-2013, 22:45
I play both HE and DE, and this whole thread is just ridiculous, Always Whine First on both sides

Laniston
07-10-2013, 22:51
This is frankly embarrassing and I'm not entirely convinced you know what tunnel vision means. In my post I suggested you look at the bigger picture (kind of the opposite of tunnel vision) so you can appreciate the way each army works on as a whole entity, instead of comparing unit to unit, which is fruitless.

But if you insist on doing it your way I would immediately say:

- HE got Loremaster and annointed who both are at least useful, the Fleetmaster and Beastmaster are nowhere near as good
- HE got OP frostphoenix, DE hydra got nerfed hard, it's just so UNFAIR
- DE lost the ability to cast on >6 dice, HE got BoH it's EVEN MORE UNFAIR
- HE get really useful eagles, we only have rubbish expensive harpies, DE book SUCKS
- HE get core heavy cavalry, that IS SO OP

See? not big, not clever.

HE get Sisters of Avelorn who can have quick to fire on BS 5 , wounding DE on 3+ and denying armour on most if not all their elite infantry.
HE not only get Eagles but can take UNITS of Eagles which then become skirmishers forcing crossbows to take an additional -1 to hit if they weren't having a hard enough time to hit as it is.
HE get Dragon Mages. Just throwing that in there. (they have initiative 6 by the way. Odd but true)
HE get Chariots in units of 1-3. 1-3d6 Str 5 impact hits that circumvent ASF. DE infantry will be small in number thanks to the points costs. Walk between Worlds gets those chariots up to speed.
HE get Phoenix guard with martial prowess and an easy 3+ ward
HE get Dragon Princes who have a 6+ ward, easy access to star lance, 2 attacks, I6, 2+save etc, etc,
HE get Alith Anar - a mobile Str 7 bolt thrower who doesn't have to take stupidity checks like the cold one chariot and has other cool stuff
HE get Skycutters, which aren't all that great, but they look cool!

I'm not feeling one bit miffed at the Dark Elf book. They have cool stuff. So do High Elves. Cool stuff for everyone!

Spiney Norman
07-10-2013, 23:17
Stop moaning and figure out how to win using your book. for goodness sake, image how it feels to be Asari!!!

Mock us all you like shiny white elf, our time will come. We'll be here again in about 7 months time when both Asur and Druchii can lament their plight when the Asrai +1 you both...

Grammaticus Bane
07-10-2013, 23:25
Spearelves have the same equipment, points and stats. But the DE spears have hatred against HE (which means 25% more hits in the first round of combat) and their own special rule (rerolls for 1 on the to wound roll). The special rule from HE with spears is only good if you have more bodies in the unit.

While it is true you have to take more Spear Elves to get the use out of the HE rule, if you aren't taking at least 3 (4) ranks...why are you taking Spear Elves?

Not to mention the rule also works for HE Archers, who don't have a Multiple Shots penalty to their shooting. Murderous Prowess does not help DE shooting in any way.

Kakapo42
07-10-2013, 23:31
Mock us all you like shiny white elf, our time will come. We'll be here again in about 7 months time when both Asur and Druchii can lament their plight when the Asrai +1 you both...

They already do that............. in the model department. :p

SteveW
07-10-2013, 23:35
Mock us all you like shiny white elf, our time will come. We'll be here again in about 7 months time when both Asur and Druchii can lament their plight when the Asrai +1 you both...

If the rumors are true we get our new book in May.

CrystalSphere
07-10-2013, 23:50
The only thing I find stupid is DE getting Light and Life lores. It doesn't make any sense form a fluff point of view, and feels absolutely forced and gamey. You need atunement to a certain wind of magic to use it. And Dark Elves aren't attuned to them by their culture, beleifs and way of life.

Then you know nothing about the WHFB setting or itīs lore. It is not D&D where there is good and evil alignments, warhammer is not about that. All magic (even the so-called good Light or Life lores) comes from chaos, so everyone who uses magic is effectively warping reality and unwillingly helping chaos take over the world. Wood elf spirits are related to demons as they are warp creatures too, and other things you probably donīt care about.

There is a clearly established lore saying how elves, before the split, mastered all the lores of magic, at least the ones the old ones taught them, which probably included Qhaysh (the most refined magic, and what the old ones used because it is the most refined and stable). Later on Morathi discovered how to refine Dhar to create True Dhar (which is way stronger and less unstable), and that is the magic which characterises the dark elves. It doesnīt mean that they only know that kind of magic, if anything, only a selected few dark elf sorceress would have the capabilities to learn True Dhar, most, like their high elf counterparts, would settle with mastering the basical lores of magic, which are very useful for specialised tasks that high magic or black magic just canīt do.

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?269410-Why-don-t-Dark-Elves-have-access-to-the-8-Lores

IcedCrow
07-10-2013, 23:56
If DE using light and life lores is stupid, then so is High Elves utilizing death and shadow magic.

SteveW
08-10-2013, 00:12
If DE using light and life lores is stupid, then so is High Elves utilizing death and shadow magic.

If the lowly Empire can have all eight lores I don't see why Elves shouldn't have them all as well.

Drasanil
08-10-2013, 00:18
If DE using light and life lores is stupid, then so is High Elves utilizing death and shadow magic.

No, no. You just don't get it, that last bit is different because High Elves are entitled to their entitlements. Totally not the same thing at all! Just take the Sea Dragon Cloak Vs. the Lion Cloak thing, clearly Lion Cloaks should be giving 5+ scaly skin saves and SDCs only +2 Vs Missiles after all everyone knows fluffy fur should make for much better armor than iron hard scales.

IcedCrow
08-10-2013, 00:32
If the lowly Empire can have all eight lores I don't see why Elves shouldn't have them all as well.

I dont care that the elves have them all. Im still wearing my shirt i didnt tear it off.

I was commenting on dark elves being stupid using light and life

gd09garett
08-10-2013, 03:45
If the lowly Empire can have all eight lores I don't see why Elves shouldn't have them all as well.
First, the 'lowly Empire' should have the preeminent magic users as humans are known for their creativity, not being hidebound by tradition, and being all too willing to experiment (read, traffic with the forces of Chaos) :-).

Does this mean you are expecting the WEs to have access to all lores as well? The modelling possibilities of a Flaming Sword of Rhuin-ed Drayds seem interesting.

Laniston
08-10-2013, 04:28
First, the 'lowly Empire' should have the preeminent magic users as humans are known for their creativity, not being hidebound by tradition, and being all too willing to experiment (read, traffic with the forces of Chaos) :-).

Does this mean you are expecting the WEs to have access to all lores as well? The modelling possibilities of a Flaming Sword of Rhuin-ed Drayds seem interesting.

Empire was taught to better harness magic by Teclis. Humans being unable to learn High Magic instead were taught the 8 lores.

And I wouldn't mind seeing flaming dryads. "Anger fire"!

Drasanil
08-10-2013, 04:59
First, the 'lowly Empire' should have the preeminent magic users as humans are known for their creativity, not being hidebound by tradition, and being all too willing to experiment (read, traffic with the forces of Chaos) :-).

Creative humans tend to get their brain-fried when experimenting with magic and the colleges of magic are incredibly hidebound and traditional for that very reason. As for the Empire I have no objection to them having access to all 8 lores, there are 8 colleges after all. That said all empire wizards should be WYSIWYGed to their chosen lores!

Brotheroracle
08-10-2013, 05:32
That said all empire wizards should be WYSIWYGed to their chosen lores!

This is the best sentence this thread has created so far. I agree.

Lord Solar Plexus
08-10-2013, 06:04
Do people want these armies to be mirror images?

As explained above - no, people do not. :) People do jump to that conclusion by asking trick questions though.



Armies are not designed in a vacuum. The two books are not mirrors. Thats really what the complaint is about.

Cant agree with it. Im glad they arent mirror.

Dead wrong I'm afraid. Of course they are mirrors - to some extent, namely stats and race. The Light Elf with a cloak and stats x, the Dark Elf with a Cloak and stat X. It's like a Bretonnian and an Empire Knight. The only difference is one of the two has a better special rule and is cheaper.

That cannot be explained away by letting oxygen into the vacuum. The dark oxygen (e.g. magic) is better, too.


The ability to deflect blows is represented by being harder to hit with a higher WS...

You mean on 4's like usual? Wow, that training really paid off. ;)

innerwolf
08-10-2013, 06:59
Then you know nothing about the WHFB setting or itīs lore. It is not D&D where there is good and evil alignments, warhammer is not about that. All magic (even the so-called good Light or Life lores) comes from chaos, so everyone who uses magic is effectively warping reality and unwillingly helping chaos take over the world. Wood elf spirits are related to demons as they are warp creatures too, and other things you probably donīt care about.

There is a clearly established lore saying how elves, before the split, mastered all the lores of magic, at least the ones the old ones taught them, which probably included Qhaysh (the most refined magic, and what the old ones used because it is the most refined and stable). Later on Morathi discovered how to refine Dhar to create True Dhar (which is way stronger and less unstable), and that is the magic which characterises the dark elves. It doesnīt mean that they only know that kind of magic, if anything, only a selected few dark elf sorceress would have the capabilities to learn True Dhar, most, like their high elf counterparts, would settle with mastering the basical lores of magic, which are very useful for specialised tasks that high magic or black magic just canīt do.

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?269410-Why-don-t-Dark-Elves-have-access-to-the-8-Lores

I know all this background, although i admit I don't love it. But I was talking about how it doesn't feels right. Lore of Life is about nature, not being medics (as many posters have claimed), and I don't see Dark Elves caring for nature at all. The same about purity and Light. But I suppose I am actually thinking in D&D terms.


Just take the Sea Dragon Cloak Vs. the Lion Cloak thing, clearly Lion Cloaks should be giving 5+ scaly skin saves and SDCs only +2 Vs Missiles after all everyone knows fluffy fur should make for much better armor than iron hard scales.

Do you know the explanaition for Lion cloaks giving a save (which is the same as Sea Dragon cloaks) only against missiles is that White Lions must swing them back to fight in close combat unencumbered? It's not a matter of one being tougher than the other (the hide-not fur-of a huge lion is not a lot softer than the scales of a glorified crocodile, anyway), but one being hamstrung with real life limitations and the other streamlined to provide it's save in any situation.

Scammel
08-10-2013, 07:24
Lore of Life is about nature, not being medics (as many posters have claimed), and I don't see Dark Elves caring for nature at all.

Ever heard of the 'Jund' faction from Magic the Gathering? Nature can still be vicious, spiky and predatory.


The same about purity and Light.

I've always thought the emphasis with Light is more on the 'Order' element.

Trains_Get_Robbed
08-10-2013, 08:47
Let's dive in shall we? :rolleyes: Touching on some of the topics mentioned prior too on pages past.

First off, no H.E general in his right mind that's trying to play competitively with High magic is sucks, and your handicapping yourself if you do so. I'm not about to delve into why, because I'm not trolling this thread to pounce like some are. However, if you say otherwise as a poster/player/hobby hero your either very uninformed, a scrub or a zealot on tirade to paint H.E as the bestarmee123~bbqwtfevarr!!1! because you lost to our new (weaker than old Teclis) single power build Alarielle, Articuno and friends, her Cats all under Mother Dragon -opinion disregarded.

Furthermore, this:

Getting ++3 P.G, or any unit a ward save for that matter?

You must like being curbstomped by anyone with competency. Additionally taking the Anointed (which is just as bad as the Beastmaster) is only worth it if you're investing the points into making the unit he's in exponentially better though magic. Hence; you're really going to put your Mage in the front rank of the P.G unit (see the first sentence)? Your Mage isn't alive do not pass go, do not collect $200. Anointed in anything (you know, to further boost inconsistencies in our list, why not?)? How many useless points is that? . . . scrub.

Banner of the O.P Dragonwtf!?!?bbq113!!

This banner is good, best in the game? Situational; yes, being 50 points is the only reason why you see it on the table however. No one in their right mind would take it if cost more (a D.P deathstar with the same banner?. . . please. . . scrub).

Shooting All the Things:

D.E shooting has Shades (with G.W now), and A.P Rxbs -that can still move and shoot ie; 29in' if need be- as well as special Bolt Throwers. No competition there. If Sisters weren't Rare, I would be entitled to listen, but since they're not anything else is ignorance.

Book vs Sac Dagger who wins?

Entirely dependent on the implementation of Magic Theory you use, this being said the defensive utility of the Book is worth about as much as low price of the Dagger . . . I'll listen to debate on this, but I'll say it's a wash to be honest (While Lore debates obviously go to D.E -think differently, feel free, but it's not true).

You can comp the cheeky units/items out of H.E, you can't do the same with D.E as they're special rules, or infantry unit options, nor monsters. Unit limits are never historically enough in metagames outside of the ETC. Henceforth: I guess H.E players are looking for some sort of vindication that D.E book is better, and for the player base to admit it as such. Alas, it won't come until tournament results. Ah, but in due time.

Spiney Norman
08-10-2013, 11:35
If the rumors are true we get our new book in May.

Thus proving beyond reasonable doubt both that I have read the rumours, and can count to 7...
I don't often say this but, BRING IT ON!!!

Got a good look through the dark elf book today, it looks like a pretty solid book with most things pretty well costed.

The only thing that made me really sad was the Kharibdys, its basically a carnosaur that swaps D3 multi-wounds for poisoned attacks, swaps out frenzy for an extra attack and costs 60pts less (oh, and doesn't require a character to ride it). It rather puts the carno in perspective really.

Omnichron
08-10-2013, 12:46
I'd take BotWD for my dark elves army any day... for my VC army too, and my not yet finished WoC. It would help me out greatly against character sniping lists, a lot of lores that does magic damage, etheral lists, daemons, screams and some of the power characters out there. Just having a unit with that banner suddenly means that my characters got a safe haven they can join when they need to, especially casters. Want to trade with the unbreakable banner from the DE book?

Honestly, the DE and HE books are quite evenly matched. Some things are stronger for DE and some things are stronger for HE. The broken things from the old book is either gone or nerfed quite heavily, so the book looks decent now without the broken parts.

The sacrifical dagger is still around, and while it's good it's NOT cheap. You have to remember that you bind up units to sacrifice for it, which costs at least 4,5 slaves. If you would just add one PD each round the entire game, you'll end up with an average 54 slaves worth of points + the base cost of the dagger...

ewar
08-10-2013, 13:20
ranting

Another well reasoned, balanced opinion. :rolleyes:

Honestly, can you at least see that you're being completely hyperbolic? The original premise wasn't even about power levels - the HE book is completely fine as it stands and makes for a fun and flexible army. If you can't see beyond the standard net list then that is your failing.

Play the army, don't play the army - nobody else cares. Just at least try to understand that there are people out there who might not agree with you (and that their opinion is just as valid as yours)?

Rakariel
08-10-2013, 13:25
I don't often say this but, BRING IT ON!!!
Following recent trend for Elf books lets hope they are in line with the other two powerlevel wise. :)

SteveW
08-10-2013, 13:31
Thus proving beyond reasonable doubt both that I have read the rumours, and can count to 7...
I don't often say this but, BRING IT ON!!!

I was pretty much just saying "Yay, 7 months!".


Got a good look through the dark elf book today, it looks like a pretty solid book with most things pretty well costed.

The only thing that made me really sad was the Kharibdys, its basically a carnosaur that swaps D3 multi-wounds for poisoned attacks, swaps out frenzy for an extra attack and costs 60pts less (oh, and doesn't require a character to ride it). It rather puts the carno in perspective really.

I guess I'm the only one who thinks these monsters are trash I guess.

plantagenet
08-10-2013, 13:54
If you bare in mind that the different colours of magic form the art that the elves know and taught to the humans does it not make sense that all the elves would have the knowledge of all the colours. Stop thinking of it as a life but as jade/green magic and death as amethyst and suddenly whether an army is good or evil in its inclinations is far less important. Now you see it as a HE mage using amethyst magic to strengthen there forces in the protection of good or a Dark Elf using jade magic in order to inflict pain and suffering either via reinvigorating there own troops or feeding the enemy to the dwellers below.

One thing that I see between the High Elf and Dark Elf comparison is that there is an answer for nearly every unit on the other side. I also think the formation and numbers of units will be different between the armies. I would expect that Dark Elves will have much wider formation to maximize their attacks whereas High Elves can afford to come in with less width but more depth. I am looking forward to seeing a few games being player should be an good match up

Lord Solar Plexus
08-10-2013, 14:06
Following recent trend for Elf books lets hope they are in line with the other two powerlevel wise. :)

Ouch. I rather wish they would not continue the recent Elf book power creep trend.


If you bare in mind that the different colours of magic form the art that the elves know and taught to the humans does it not make sense that all the elves would have the knowledge of all the colours.


Yes and no. The idea that a different society would think and act exactly the same as its neighbour is what doesn't jive. Yes, if magic is something like math, then both are likely to use all its tools - the Soviets and The Free West both did. However, if it is more like politics, or political science, or theology, philosophy, law, then huge differences should be the norm - the above mentioned rl examples certainly did.

As long as it is called the Lore of Life I must politely reject your demand to stop thinking about it as the Lore of Life.

I also wonder why everyone who so forcefully detested a mirror book is suddenly completely silent on this one. The mirror is probably just fine if the power level increases...

IcedCrow
08-10-2013, 14:10
Possibly because the "power creep" that is being postulated here is not agreed upon as existing.

Rakariel
08-10-2013, 14:18
Ouch. I rather wish they would not continue the recent Elf book power creep trend.
As with most topics its subjectiv as to how much there really is a power creep trend. I think the DE book is not better off than the HE one and both are not as good as the WoC AB (in terms of power creep, I actually think the WoC one has atrocious internal balance). Thats my opinion however. What I was trying to get at with my earlier statement tho was, that I wish Woodies get a good book and do not again fall short. Its about time some attention was directed at them, might aswell get a solid book in the process. :)

plantagenet
08-10-2013, 14:23
I thought it was called the lore of life by the Empire. No one ever said what the Elves called it. I see Magic as a mix between science and belief in the warhammer world note that's my interpretation. If you took the names as gospel then only necromancers should use death. In the case of the Elves we are also looking at the same race that has fractured after the development of magic not before. You would expect to see different uses of the lore in terms of intent but you would expect the art to still be there.

logan054
08-10-2013, 14:46
Ouch. I rather wish they would not continue the recent Elf book power creep trend.

TBH, while the book seems pretty good it doesn't sound like its as OP as the old book (6pts elven spearmen powerdice, hydra, all very silly), nor do I think it will have the same effect on the meta as the DE, DoC and VC had in 7th, I'm still trying to figure out how my VC are going to deal with the new DE, ASF is going to be a huge problem and even if I add a corpse cart (which will get behind) that isn't going to help my grave guard all that much sadly (I guess I will need to be trolling ebay for Teutogen guard models :( ). On the bright side I don't think WE are going to up the power level of elven armies even further with how the game works currently without a serious rewrite, I guess it depends what they decide to do with forest spirits.


As with most topics its subjectiv as to how much there really is a power creep trend. I think the DE book is not better off than the HE one and both are not as good as the WoC AB (in terms of power creep, I actually think the WoC one has atrocious internal balance). Thats my opinion however. What I was trying to get at with my earlier statement tho was, that I wish Woodies get a good book and do not again fall short. Its about time some attention was directed at them, might aswell get a solid book in the process. :)

Are we talking in comparison with the old WoC book and the current or in comparison to rest of the books of warhammer? The old armybook was terrible, zero internal balance, I don't think it's as bad as it use to be with the nerf to chosen, its hardly as if a daemon prince is a auto choice, its still very easy to kill with cannons and magic with only a 4+ wardsave possible, chaos lords are still to expensive, thats another topic.



Banner of the O.P Dragonwtf!?!?bbq113!!

This banner is good, best in the game? Situational; yes, being 50 points is the only reason why you see it on the table however. No one in their right mind would take it if cost more (a D.P deathstar with the same banner?. . . please. . . scrub).

What I would say is that the same could be said about any MR item, because of this I think the price is to damn low (while MR is in its current form is to high), A lot of armies are going to struggle to deal with a unit with that banner, I don't think it would be as bad if it wasn't protecting against miscast damage and magical attacks.

Spiney Norman
08-10-2013, 14:53
I was pretty much just saying "Yay, 7 months!".



I guess I'm the only one who thinks these monsters are trash I guess.

They don't need to be super powered at their current price point, even if they were trash, that makes the carno trash that is 60pts overcosted...

Ridarsin
08-10-2013, 17:27
I'm surprised that the HE players didn't realize that you can take 3 or 4 bolt throwers per choice making them equal to DE counterparts. Also hatred will only kick in if the DE unit has lower init than the unitit's fighting (ASF rerolls work against equal init). I honestly like both books and feel that they are very equal, I like high magic better (walk between worlds and unmaking ftw). Just a couple of cents from a VC perspective.

Clockwork
08-10-2013, 17:48
I'm going to be really controversial, and put it out there that I think this is Ward's best book to date (and one of the better ones of 8th in general). Multiple viable options, clear strengths without anything being OP or a clear net list within 2 mins (looking at you, Warriors), and new units that fill a nice niche. Great effort. There's a couple of damp squids (Fleetmasters, Medusa on foot) but nothing that really hampers the book overall. Some will no doubt claim that Witch Elves are the default go to Core, and a Witch Elf/Cauldron list is silly strong, but those people don't seem to remember that T3 5++ Frenzy isn't all that great. And look! An army that doesn't need the crutch of Monstrous Cavalry or big flying Monsters! Remember when Warhammer didn't used to be about that?

I also think the High Elf book is solid (BOTWD excluded), and there's no clear indication that Dark Elves are "High Elves +1." Nobody seems to mention that only Blackguard and Cold One Knights can take magic items, and only weapons at that? And remind me how many 25 point magic weapons are in the Dark Elf book (answer: none) or which are worthwhile from the BRB on those units (answer: none)? And aren't there three units that can take magic weapons, one that can take magic items up to 50 points, and some 25 point magic weapons in the High Elf book? Hmm... yeah, clearly Dark Elves have everything.

I'm amazed that the OP can claim, with a straight face no less, that the 8th edition books are balanced except for Dark Elves, without even a passing referencing to Warhammer Armies: Nurgle Daemon Prince Warriors of Chaos,

Sexiest_hero
08-10-2013, 19:25
This is OP? Not Armybook iron blaster? Not armybook Refury? Not armybook nurgle daemonprince? Not army book warsave/fiery convocation? This book that has no pendant, toned down hydra and less pd spam, this is the op one? Come on.

mostlyharmless
08-10-2013, 19:28
This is OP? Not Armybook iron blaster? Not armybook Refury? Not armybook nurgle daemonprince? Not army book warsave/fiery convocation? This book that has no pendant, toned down hydra and less pd spam, this is the op one? Come on.

I think the high elf players are miffed that their gimicky special rule is no longer unique to them.

Clockwork
08-10-2013, 19:43
Another well reasoned, balanced opinion. :rolleyes:

Honestly, can you at least see that you're being completely hyperbolic? The original premise wasn't even about power levels - the HE book is completely fine as it stands and makes for a fun and flexible army. If you can't see beyond the standard net list then that is your failing.

Play the army, don't play the army - nobody else cares. Just at least try to understand that there are people out there who might not agree with you (and that their opinion is just as valid as yours)?

I wouldn't bother. I had a long argument with this guy in the Rumour thread that T3 5++ models aren't game ending OP like he claimed. It essentially boiled down to the fact that he didn't face them very often in the last book (because apparently Mindrazor Dark Elves weren't competitive ever? Who knew), and that people won't bring the tools to deal with them (Even though those tools are both available, and apparently they are such a significant threat).

EDIT: I shouldn't need to mention that the well-known Seredain, of Seredain Cavalry Prince fame, regularily uses High Magic on a level 4, which pretty much tells you all you need to know to invalidated his sweeping generalisations.

logan054
08-10-2013, 19:47
Do you know the explanaition for Lion cloaks giving a save (which is the same as Sea Dragon cloaks) only against missiles is that White Lions must swing them back to fight in close combat unencumbered? It's not a matter of one being tougher than the other (the hide-not fur-of a huge lion is not a lot softer than the scales of a glorified crocodile, anyway), but one being hamstrung with real life limitations and the other streamlined to provide it's save in any situation.

That and White lions with a 3+ save in combat while wielding a great weapon would be a little stupid.

SteveW
08-10-2013, 19:53
That and White lions with a 3+ save in combat while wielding a great weapon would be a little stupid.

It would be fine though if it had been a +1 AS though? I think it would.

Now wood elves need Bear Costumes for a +1 S +3T and +2 AS

BlackPawl
08-10-2013, 19:55
I'm going to be really controversial, and put it out there that I think this is Ward's best book to date (and one of the better ones of 8th in general). Multiple viable options, clear strengths without anything being OP or a clear net list within 2 mins (looking at you, Warriors), and new units that fill a nice niche. Great effort. There's a couple of damp squids (Fleetmasters, Medusa on foot) but nothing that really hampers the book overall. Some will no doubt claim that Witch Elves are the default go to Core, and a Witch Elf/Cauldron list is silly strong, but those people don't seem to remember that T3 5++ Frenzy isn't all that great. And look! An army that doesn't need the crutch of Monstrous Cavalry or big flying Monsters! Remember when Warhammer didn't used to be about that?

I also think the High Elf book is solid (BOTWD excluded), and there's no clear indication that Dark Elves are "High Elves +1." Nobody seems to mention that only Blackguard and Cold One Knights can take magic items, and only weapons at that? And remind me how many 25 point magic weapons are in the Dark Elf book (answer: none) or which are worthwhile from the BRB on those units (answer: none)? And aren't there three units that can take magic weapons, one that can take magic items up to 50 points, and some 25 point magic weapons in the High Elf book? Hmm... yeah, clearly Dark Elves have everything.

I'm amazed that the OP can claim, with a straight face no less, that the 8th edition books are balanced except for Dark Elves, without even a passing referencing to Warhammer Armies: Nurgle Daemon Prince Warriors of Chaos,


Please read my post again and again: I did not say at any time that the DE book is OP or the best book ever, I'm just frustrated that there are many more nice and good tools in DE book which are (in my opinion) are better then the HE counterpart. I don't have said that the DE will crush all armies, but that they have get more tools then HE in their book. This book is not the end of the world, but it is a slap in the face of many HE players which get less options to take.

As an example:
Executioner are one point less then white lions, both have S4 (6 with weapons) and the same stats, both attack at the same time but Ex reroll all failed hits in the first round of combat AND rerolls all 1' to wound. Yes, HE can get more attacks (with more troops), but have to spend more points on the unit.

10 Ex against 15 WL (last unit cost 75 points more):
both hit at the same ini and hit on 4+, so 10 Ex with hatred get 7,5 hits and 15 WL also 7,5 hits.
Both wound on 2+, but here the Ex will have the advantage for rerolls of 1. So maybe one kill more then the WL - with cheaper troops and only 10 to 15.
If both units would have 15 men it would be no chance for the WL (Ex 7 wide so they get 14 attacks in).

You can do the same for spearmen against spearmen - let alone a fight between HE spearmen and DE witches ... *shoudder*

HE champions can only take magic weapons (except DP which can take armor too), and we have only one 25 point weapon more (and that's a bow). Now tell me which 25 point weapons are good for HE if they are bad for DE? :confused:

DE can take more 25 point banners in core (witches can also take a 50 point banner) - and there are some good 25 point banner in the BRB (or what did you think of the flame banner, banner of leadership, banner with +1 M, even the banner which grants you a failed ld test?).

If PG with a 4++ save is very good now then I want to ask why witch elves with a 5++ "isn't so great"?
They get more attacks, get poison, are ItP, get rerolls to hit and wound and are cheaper ... (ok, not with the shrine) ...

I would switch my spearmen every time against such a unit! :D




I'm surprised that the HE players didn't realize that you can take 3 or 4 bolt throwers per choice making them equal to DE counterparts. Also hatred will only kick in if the DE unit has lower init than the unitit's fighting (ASF rerolls work against equal init). I honestly like both books and feel that they are very equal, I like high magic better (walk between worlds and unmaking ftw). Just a couple of cents from a VC perspective.

HE can get 4 boltthrowers, DE can get 4 boltthrowers. But DE can get them from special and HE from rare, which can be a big difference (because you can take 50% from special and only 25% from rare).
Maybe you did not understand or did not know: HE and DE get both ASF, so they cancel both out - they strike at the same time now. But DE get their rerolls from hatred. So HE can not reroll their to hit dices but DE still can (in the first round of combat). Plus they can rerolls their 1' from the to wound rolls.

mostlyharmless
08-10-2013, 20:02
Those executioners also have that awesome 5+ armour. Such a game-breaker. Honestly, if you're allowing 10 executioners to see combat, you're doing it wrong.

I don't know who told you High Elves and Dark Elves are mirrors and should be directly compared, but whoever told you was a liar.

Drasanil
08-10-2013, 20:06
Do you know the explanaition for Lion cloaks giving a save (which is the same as Sea Dragon cloaks) only against missiles is that White Lions must swing them back to fight in close combat unencumbered?

Really is it? Because looking at my 8th edition Asur book it mentions no such thing under the lion cloak entry or the white lion one. In fact, it says they're only good against arrows, which is why they also don't provide bonus AS against magical missile attacks. Looking at my 5th edition high elf book it specifies the cloaks are only good against arrows because the heads get tangled in the thick fluffy fur.

The only reference to being thrown over the shoulder was from the 6th book and even that one mentions nothing about being encumbered in combat by them. The rest of the books for their parts all seem rather consistent and clear on what the cloak does.


It's not a matter of one being tougher than the other (the hide-not fur-of a huge lion is not a lot softer than the scales of a glorified crocodile, anyway), but one being hamstrung with real life limitations and the other streamlined to provide it's save in any situation.

Actually it is a matter of one being tougher than the other and it always has been. Just look back to fifth edition (which IIRC was when White Lions were first introduced) the cloaks only provided +1 AS vs Missiles specifically because of the fur the hide never played a role in it, while Sea Dragon Cloaks provided a pseudo 5+ Ward Save specifically because they were iron hard.

So please, explain to me again how this isn't just another case of Always Whine First and being entitled to your entitlements (even though you never had them)?

Clockwork
08-10-2013, 20:24
Please read my post again and again: I did not say at any time that the DE book is OP or the best book ever, I'm just frustrated that there are many more nice and good tools in DE book which are (in my opinion) are better then the HE counterpart. I don't have said that the DE will crush all armies, but that they have get more tools then HE in their book. This book is not the end of the world, but it is a slap in the face of many HE players which get less options to take.

As an example:
Executioner are one point less then white lions, both have S4 (6 with weapons) and the same stats, both attack at the same time but Ex reroll all failed hits in the first round of combat AND rerolls all 1' to wound. Yes, HE can get more attacks (with more troops), but have to spend more points on the unit.

10 Ex against 15 WL (last unit cost 75 points more):
both hit at the same ini and hit on 4+, so 10 Ex with hatred get 7,5 hits and 15 WL also 7,5 hits.
Both wound on 2+, but here the Ex will have the advantage for rerolls of 1. So maybe one kill more then the WL - with cheaper troops and only 10 to 15.
If both units would have 15 men it would be no chance for the WL (Ex 7 wide so they get 14 attacks in).

You can do the same for spearmen against spearmen - let alone a fight between HE spearmen and DE witches ... *shoudder*

HE champions can only take magic weapons (except DP which can take armor too), and we have only one 25 point weapon more (and that's a bow). Now tell me which 25 point weapons are good for HE if they are bad for DE? :confused:

DE can take more 25 point banners in core (witches can also take a 50 point banner) - and there are some good 25 point banner in the BRB (or what did you think of the flame banner, banner of leadership, banner with +1 M, even the banner which grants you a failed ld test?).

If PG with a 4++ save is very good now then I want to ask why witch elves with a 5++ "isn't so great"?
They get more attacks, get poison, are ItP, get rerolls to hit and wound and are cheaper ... (ok, not with the shrine) ...

I would switch my spearmen every time against such a unit! :D


Well, you did infer they were OP by claiming all the books were fine and balanced, but the DE one was better, but no matter.

There are certainly some things that the Dark Elf book does better. Dark Riders, for instance, are flat out superior to Ellyrian Reavers in every way. So on that account I think you have a right to feel aggreived.

But compared side by side, there's a lot of nice things the High Elf Book can do. Sisters of Averlorn and Frost Phonexies are stand out as being without equal in the Dark Elf book for what they can do. The White Lion Chariot is so much better than the Cold One Chariot that the 5 points difference is laughable (Stubborn, faster, no Stupidity, S5 WS5 Lions (I'm shocked every time I see this), S6 crew, etc). I'd much rather have a Loremaster than a Supreme Sorceress or Fleetmaster or Beastmaster, and I think High Magic may be better than Dark (the signature certainly is). And finally, don't forget that High Elf Eagles are vastly superior to Harpies, and High Elves have much wider range for unit size variation: other than Shades, no Dark Elf infantry unit can come in sizes small than 10. These are just a few examples. So, in answer to your original response in your OP, yes I do think there are things you have overlooked, and they are roughly equal to one another.

In specific response to your points, you completely neglected that Executioners have a worse armour save at range (meaning fewer might make it to combat), and White Lions are Steadfast. Both those things are significant. But why should White Lions be just as good at killing Executioners, as Executioners are at killing White Lions? Don't let the S6 fool you: both units actually have different roles.

There's a number of good High Elf magic weapon builds. Reaver bow is a nice perk for an infantry unit (3 S5 shots from a White Lion unit); or a great upgrade to a unit of Shadow Warriors. With Sword of Might, a White Lion champion can benefit from ASF re-rolls on 3 S5 attacks. A Dragon Prince champion can really go all out: special mention goes to the Star Lance. The options are there. There's no reason to take any magic weapon on any Dark Elf Champion at the moment. Perhaps the difference is the prevalence in magic banners, so I guess that it evens out.

4++ is way, way better than 5++. Consider also that Phoenix Guard get their 4++ built in: Witch Elves have to pay 300 points for a hero option to grant it. And Witch Elves are also T3 with no armour save without the Cauldron. Yes, they have a lot of offensive power: but even the humble High Elf Archer will have a field day with them. You know what Dark Elves don't have in Core? Heavy cavalry.

Von Wibble
08-10-2013, 20:44
Lots of good points.

I was going to reply to BlackPawl above but CLockwork's views pretty much mirror my own anyway, +1 to that post.

Jocat
08-10-2013, 21:25
I, HERO of Ulthuan, agrees with Clockwork :)

In case you're wondering, I also play Dark Elves, since early 7th Ed.

ewar
08-10-2013, 21:48
I was going to reply to BlackPawl above but CLockwork's views pretty much mirror my own anyway, +1 to that post.

Make that +2(00)

You said it without the patronising scorn that was welling up in me, fair play. Every time I see common sense like that on the net, it shines like a pearl in pig ****.

innerwolf
08-10-2013, 22:08
The only reference to being thrown over the shoulder was from the 6th book and even that one mentions nothing about being encumbered in combat by them. The rest of the books for their parts all seem rather consistent and clear on what the cloak does.


Come on, be fair on this one, if not because of being encumbered by them in combat, why would they throw them over their shoulders when getting into it?

I appologise for not being familiar to those 5th edition references. I see I was partially wrong.

Drasanil
08-10-2013, 22:21
Come on, be fair on this one, if not because of being encumbered by them in combat, why would they throw them over their shoulders when getting into it?

To prevent them getting torn up too badly by enemy swords, axes and claws? Same thing that makes them good at catching arrows would make them really good at catching blades and claws and getting ripped up by them.

Shadeseraph
08-10-2013, 22:43
I got to agree that HE players (me included) got a bit too fixed on the similarities, rather than seeing the whole picture. I actually have been thinking how those "benefits" Dark elves got would have affected HE lists... and, frankly, it would have made them a bit too powerful.

-The obvious one: White Lion Cloak granting +2 AS in c/c would have made WL either stupidly powerful or stupidly costly. One of the reasons they were picked over swordmasters in the old book was precisely that +2 AS against shooting, and every time I get to fight against one of those S5 rock throwers I remember why I use them. As for heroes, we already get an awesome non-magical armor (though a bit too expensive for princes) in the dragon armor, and the ability to take a mundane 1+ on foot would have made the Shield of Merwyn way too good for its cost.
-RBTs in special would have been straight out brutal. Dark Elves only real "must take" rare are Warlocks, and those are cheap. Kharidbyss-es are good, but not necessarily much better than, say, Executioners or Hydras. As such, RBTs on rare would have not changed the troop distribution too much, while there are a lot of important things in DE special. Comparatively, RBTs in special for HE would have meant tons of lists with 2 birdies and 4 RBTs. HE rare may as well be one of the best in the whole game, surpassing even the likes of WoC or VC: It is a varied and versatile list with a lot of powerful tools, and the bird may as well be one of the bests units in the game.
-Banners in core: This is actually tricky, but I do think the reason to not allow HE core to get magical banners is actually partly related to balance and partly to give validity to another unit: Sisters of avelorn. For starters, let's say HE core gets the same banner allocation. That would mean SH get 50 pts. You know which banner costs 50 pts, right? Second: 25 pts banners on either archers or Sea guard would eat at the sisters of Avelorn role. As they already compete with RBTs, which are also rare, they needed to keep their specific abilities unique within the army. This means no Banner of discipline archer bunquers, but whatever.
-The case of Ellyrion Reavers vs dark riders. For starters, I'm convinced the people at GW do think DE should be better at chaff (read: infiltrators, fast cav, that kind of thing) than HE, which is a fair approach. Even then, they aren't straight up better: There is a single, but relatively important difference in that ER can get bows by swapping out their lances at a bargain price, while DR must pay the full price of the RXB. This is important because chaff/sacrifical units are better left cheap, but HE reavers can afford to multitask without paying too much, while DR have to pay a premium. I know I swap the spears in all my ER for bows, at least, while I'm not sure I'd do the same if I had to buy the weapon at full price.
-Skycutter VS Scroungerunner: Yes, the BT on the SR is better than the one on the skycutter. It is much more expensive, easier to shot down, and lacks the maneuverability to make full use of that 24" BT, unlike the Skycutter, that can at least abuse fly. And the Skycutter is actually a decent chariot even without the BT, while the Scroungerunner is worthless in that role (S4 on a model costing almost the same than an hydra? really, GW?).

And so on. I actually believe that many things that are restricted in the HE book, while being left uncheked on the DE book are that way because they would either leave the HE book unbalanced, or to pave the way for the new units and magic items.

EDIT: As an aside, reading TGR posts makes me want to make an army with no frostie, no BoH and no BotWD and make it win. I'm already halfway there (no BotWD, 1 frostie only) and win more than half my games against cheesed armies, so how hard must be to go all the way?

ewar
08-10-2013, 23:37
@Shadeseraph

Great post, a well reasoned approach, I just wish a few more HE players here had your clarity of vision. The armies definitely have differences and I think on balance, in a one to one matchup, DE might have the slight edge in power; however it is definitely marginal. What I have objected to is HE players bemoaning the options open to them, despite having one of the best books in 8th.

sysy16
08-10-2013, 23:39
With Sword of Might, a White Lion champion can benefit from ASF re-rolls on 3 S5 attacks.

A Dragon Prince champion can really go all out: special mention goes to the Star Lance. The options are there.

.

Good post and I am sure many agree with your overall point,

just need to clarify a couple of things, the sword of might seems a little pointless, it would be 2 attacks not 3, so quite an expensive one wound model for 2xS5 attacks

The magic weapon allowance is pretty much useless for both HE and DE in my view, its a shame that it is not just magic item allowance, again, for both DE & HE

As for the Dragon Prince, the abilities and allowance is a bit more generous so your overall point again is good but most rulings I've seen so far do not allow the DP champ to use the star lance which as a HE player, is a major bummer. (it is argued that he is not a character and the text says character only)

But good overall points.

I think as a HE player, the ASF rule to both sides is a bit annoying. I'd rather neither had it. It creates problems all over the place and really must be annoying to other armies who have to face it or even feel they should now have it (Wood Elves...).

The High elf elite infantry such as Swordmasters and White Lions will probably be munched by core units (witch elves....) that at the end of the day are now hitting first, with re-rolls to hit and wound. The mechanics of the game does not put much benefit on higher weapon skill, so a unit such as sword masters are still, despite having one of the few non-hero/lord WS 6 stats , hopeless at stopping folk hitting them!

But the HE book has ways around this. Missile fire on T3 models with little or no armour will hurt, Sisters will really hurt and frosties will help swing combats to a more even keel.

Like all books, there are some oddities (shields on Dark Riders?) (BoWD etc) but I think they have done an ok job.

ASF army wide being my only real hate (for anyone). It is just a rubbish rule!

Shadeseraph
08-10-2013, 23:52
The armies definitely have differences and I think on balance, in a one to one matchup, DE might have the slight edge in power; however it is definitely marginal. What I have objected to is HE players bemoaning the options open to them, despite having one of the best books in 8th.

Yeah, I think that the only true problem is that Hatred is better than Valour of the Ages (though how much better one is over the other is debatable), and it is supposed to be the real mirrored rule. VoA partially shuts one of the best Dark Magic spells, though (Shroud of Despair), which may be an attempt at giving VoA a small push forward.

In the end, I feel the battle between HE and DE will be decided by who wins the Chaff Wars, even more than usual. Both have solid chaff and depend on it, with DE getting better chaff and HE getting better overall mobility.

Phazael
09-10-2013, 01:28
There are some balance gaffs in this book. Witches in core without requiring some form of unlock is fairly ridiculous, L2 with guaranteed Black Horror, access to Lore of Heavens, and the return of the sac dagger are mistakes on the OP side of things. On the flipside, the Hyrdra got a little too overnerfed, many of the new units are way to gimmicky/overpriced to be useful, the army has no method of dealing with MCav outside of the tiresome Mindrazor abuse, and Executioners are hilariously inferior to other infantry of similar cost. Those minor nitpicks aside, its a relatively diverse book with pretty good internal balance, comparable to Ogres in that regard. Despite all the whining from HE players, still stinging from their loss of privileged status from 5th (and I do take a certain perverse enjoyment in reading the tears flowing from their board), the HE book is still better against the general field, even without the Banner of Broken.

Phazael
09-10-2013, 01:33
Yeah, I think that the only true problem is that Hatred is better than Valour of the Ages (though how much better one is over the other is debatable), and it is supposed to be the real mirrored rule. VoA partially shuts one of the best Dark Magic spells, though (Shroud of Despair), which may be an attempt at giving VoA a small push forward.

In the end, I feel the battle between HE and DE will be decided by who wins the Chaff Wars, even more than usual. Both have solid chaff and depend on it, with DE getting better chaff and HE getting better overall mobility.

VoA is only a worse rule in some alternate universe where people are still playing mostly MSU and not spamming Mindrazorftw or similar "strategies" in the game. Hatred might be slightly better in the mirror match when two unbuffed elf units go toe to toe, but against the wider field Martial Prowess is MUCH more powerful than MP, which is the real comparison to be made here. As for Chaff wars, I think actually the DE have superior mobility and chaff, but HE have a greater tendency to bring long range shooters that tend to decide these little side battles and bring with them the ability to mostly ignore panic on the perimeters with their own chaff. Bach when DE were nearly invincible, both the old and current HE book were hard matchups for them and I hardly see that changing with the new book.

Drasanil
09-10-2013, 02:31
I agree with most of what you said, except for the bellow.


L2 with guaranteed Black Horror

If someone is using the tome to guarantee black horror I would be a very happy general. Word of Pain or that LD debuff can be way nastier, while soul stealer has great synergy with PoD. Black Horror is good, but as far as test or die spells go, it is one of the weaker ones, it allows ward saves and most of the nasty choices are S4+ making it less useful than say initiative based kill spells.


the army has no method of dealing with MCav outside of the tiresome Mindrazor abuse, and Executioners are hilariously inferior to other infantry of similar cost.

Not sure if serious or maybe you meant black guard? Execs are 12ppm, S6, killing blow, and strike at initiative, on top of that almost auto wound against toughness 4. They're pretty much the bane of all things armored and should do well against even MCav. You need to support them but they can be pretty damn brutal, especially if you have the likes of a life mage to cover their squishyness.

Shadeseraph
09-10-2013, 06:07
VoA is only a worse rule in some alternate universe where people are still playing mostly MSU and not spamming Mindrazorftw or similar "strategies" in the game. Hatred might be slightly better in the mirror match when two unbuffed elf units go toe to toe, but against the wider field Martial Prowess is MUCH more powerful than MP, which is the real comparison to be made here. As for Chaff wars, I think actually the DE have superior mobility and chaff, but HE have a greater tendency to bring long range shooters that tend to decide these little side battles and bring with them the ability to mostly ignore panic on the perimeters with their own chaff. Bach when DE were nearly invincible, both the old and current HE book were hard matchups for them and I hardly see that changing with the new book.

Hey! I take offense on that one, I play MSU and do not spam Mindrazorftw!

Juicy21
09-10-2013, 07:07
I still hate facing Highelves more then darkelves!.
I think wardssaves and phoenixes are what makes highelves though to face. With darkelves yes they got more killy but i dont think there anywhere near harder to kill for my brets then these damn highelves with that insane stacking wardsave synergery and botd.

Lord Solar Plexus
09-10-2013, 08:15
I've yet to see anyone spam Mindrazor, and I see no reason not to play MSU. Or hordes. Or anything inbetween.


This is OP? Not Armybook iron blaster? Not armybook Refury? Not armybook nurgle daemonprince? Not army book warsave/fiery convocation? This book that has no pendant, toned down hydra and less pd spam, this is the op one? Come on.

Not necessarily OP but it does indeed smack of power creep. The Pendant certainly needed to go but it was just one guy. The Hydra is not at all toned down, as now its save cannot be taken away at all, and instead of PD spam you get autohitting and autowounding units. This re-rolling 1's is structurally, from a game design perspective in the same league as the Pendant - it's too much of a guarantee.


Those executioners also have that awesome 5+ armour. Such a game-breaker. Honestly, if you're allowing 10 executioners to see combat, you're doing it wrong.


That's a platitude, mostly. By focussing on an exemplary number (it could have been 30, 50 or 100), you're actually saying Executioners will never see combat, and if they do, only by mistake. According to that logic, a DE opponent "only" needs to do everything right - I'm sorry but that goes for each and every unit and model, no matter its size, cost or quality.

A game is not about you and me "allowing" stuff to happen.



I don't know who told you High Elves and Dark Elves are mirrors and should be directly compared, but whoever told you was a liar.

How so? All units are and should be directly compared - the OP uses his book, I use mine. Do you not compare opposing units to yours? If not, how do you assess their and your potential? More so, how does an indirect comparison work? It is certainly a good idea to take other factors into account but whether that is a flank charge, a supporting unit or magic, it is always on top of the direct comparison.

This mirror critique is as silly as it was on p. 1. Nobody said they were or should be.

Clockwork
09-10-2013, 09:15
I've yet to see anyone spam Mindrazor, and I see no reason not to play MSU. Or hordes. Or anything inbetween.



Not necessarily OP but it does indeed smack of power creep. The Pendant certainly needed to go but it was just one guy. The Hydra is not at all toned down, as now its save cannot be taken away at all, and instead of PD spam you get autohitting and autowounding units. This re-rolling 1's is structurally, from a game design perspective in the same league as the Pendant - it's too much of a guarantee.
.

I'm not convinced about the Hydra. I think its definitely going to fade out of use, as it heals its wounds at the end of the turn - which means you only need to get past that mere 4+ armour save all in one go. That's not a lot to ask, especially at Initiative 2. Its also lost its Beastmasters with all their attacks and, more importantly, their Leadership.

To be honest, this entire thread has largely been people complaining that the meta will now be dominated by T3 5+/No armour save models, and I just don't see that. If you want an example of power creep, look at Warriors of Chaos (and to a certain extent, Daemons of Chaos too), but this?

The old Executioner horde with 30 models runs into something at full strength. Hitting on 3s, it deals 20 hits and, wounding on 2s, it deals 18 wounds (remember: Executioners don't get ASF re-rolls). Murderess Prowess generate a further 2 wounds from the 2 misses. That's what's so broken - an additional 2 wounds? Against anything a little tougher, you generate much fewer wounds. Its not like all armies are made of T1-4 troops that any S3-6 Dark Elf "autowounds."

In an edition that brought us Monstrous Cavalry, Flying Monster spam, and unkillable characters, its an army with none of these things and that rerolls 1s to wound which is power creep. Really not seeing it.

Clockwork
09-10-2013, 09:26
Good post and I am sure many agree with your overall point,

just need to clarify a couple of things, the sword of might seems a little pointless, it would be 2 attacks not 3, so quite an expensive one wound model for 2xS5 attacks

Whoops, you're quite right. Still, its a suboptimal choice - but a suboptimal choice is better than no choice at all.



As for the Dragon Prince, the abilities and allowance is a bit more generous so your overall point again is good but most rulings I've seen so far do not allow the DP champ to use the star lance which as a HE player, is a major bummer. (it is argued that he is not a character and the text says character only)


What? That's crazy talk! Its Mounted Character only. The model is both mounted and allowed 50 points of magic weapons (if in doubt - Army Builder allows him to take it).


the army has no method of dealing with MCav outside of the tiresome Mindrazor abuse, and Executioners are hilariously inferior to other infantry of similar cost.

Cites lack of Monstrous Cav counters in the same sentance as Executioners, and doesn't join the two up...

Special Repeater Bolt Throwers? ASF S6 Cold One Knights? Access to Lore of Metal? S7 Kharibdyss? Medsuae (for the non-Skullcrusher variants)? Scourgerunners? The gold old Repeater Crossbow? 4D6 S5 zapping Warlocks? Yeah, no tools at all.

cptcosmic
09-10-2013, 10:03
25 pts banners on either archers or Sea guard would eat at the sisters of Avelorn role. As they already compete with RBTs, which are also rare, they needed to keep their specific abilities unique within the army. This means no Banner of discipline archer bunquers, but whatever.

since when can sister be used as banner of discipline bunkers? they cannot and beside that the units are totally different in range, profile and cost. in short the comparision makes no sense at all. It also makes no sense that the Seaguard, which are professional soldiers in service, cannot use banners, while some Spears that are citizens can. the First Among Equals rule shouldnt be changed at all.


The case of Ellyrion Reavers vs dark riders. For starters, I'm convinced the people at GW do think DE should be better at chaff (read: infiltrators, fast cav, that kind of thing) than HE, which is a fair approach. Even then, they aren't straight up better: There is a single, but relatively important difference in that ER can get bows by swapping out their lances at a bargain price, while DR must pay the full price of the RXB.

Reavers use spears, not lances and btw bows are weaksauce. have you ever heard someone saying "yeah awesome I can get bows"? no? well go figure out why...

also what you are convinced of does not matter, what does matter is their lore, the model representing the unit and how it is reflected by the rules. fact is Reavers are KNIGHTS of Ellyrion, those knights that by lore kicked the butts of invading DE by rerouting them into ambushes. beside that whole Ellyrion is devoted to being the masters of horse riding. I cannot remember DE having a whole state devotet to horse riding... also how much sense does it make that knights of a dying race run around with paper armor? GW even made miniatures in IoB that reflect this all but somehow they went retard mode in the rules and forgot that, the Dark Riders with shields is just added insult to this, thus you should actually understand the ******** of HE players in this regard. this does not mean that Dark Riders are not supposed to better and should not have shields, this only means that Reavers should have the regular mithral barding as option and GW failed. and BTW Dark Riders are better even without shields because they can get RXBs, just saying.

the point is, that some stuff just make no sense (Reaver Knights with no barding option, core banners, etc...) or is just disgusting (hello BotWD, or the HE tax => to be competitive you have to autoinclude certain choices) in the HE book which GW could figure out by themself by using their brains for 15 seconds. they had the chance to make a perfect army book but failed, yet the DE book is alot better in that regard which was written at about the same time...

Lord Solar Plexus
09-10-2013, 11:42
The old Executioner horde with 30 models runs into something at full strength. Hitting on 3s, it deals 20 hits and, wounding on 2s, it deals 18 wounds (remember: Executioners don't get ASF re-rolls). Murderess Prowess generate a further 2 wounds from the 2 misses. That's what's so broken - an additional 2 wounds? Against anything a little tougher, you generate much fewer wounds. Its not like all armies are made of T1-4 troops that any S3-6 Dark Elf "autowounds."


Before I reply to anything else and make more a fool of myself than absolutely necessary, I thought Execs (and all DE) have hatred? In that case you're looking at 25 guaranteed kills. 25. Against anything T4 or less, AS 4+ or less. Grave Guard, Temple Guard, Greatswords, you name it. If that is indeed the case, that's brutal - and I don't see what T3, 5+ actually matters when a handful of guys hits back. That's just collateral damage to them.

Even so, Elves have been T3, 5+ AS all the time, and it never prevented them from a top spot in the last years.

Rakariel
09-10-2013, 11:50
I thought Execs (and all DE) have hatred?
DE have Hatred (HE) only. Black Guard have eternal hatred (hating everything, rerolls every round).

Lord Solar Plexus
09-10-2013, 12:02
Thanks a lot. Still, as someone elsewhere has said, the book seems like a concerted effort to remove bad dice rolling from the army.

3 more points for ASF, re-rolling 1's and one more S4 attack for CoK is just one such example. Comparing Warlocks to ICK makes me wish Ward had written my book, too - they're better in every single regard - M9, attacks, Initiative, Vanguard, Free Reforms, ASF, Poison...wow. Having everything you need inbuilt is extremely valuable, as it cannot be taken away like a Warrior Priest or HE MP...and that's on top on cheap Frenzy whenever you want and a bunch of buffs from the Cauldron and whatnot.

We will have to see how it all works in practice, as oftentimes you don't get all the buffs and cool-looking combos into any given list but these will be some tough customers for sure.

Shadeseraph
09-10-2013, 13:32
since when can sister be used as banner of discipline bunkers? they cannot and beside that the units are totally different in range, profile and cost. in short the comparision makes no sense at all. It also makes no sense that the Seaguard, which are professional soldiers in service, cannot use banners, while some Spears that are citizens can. the First Among Equals rule shouldnt be changed at all.

I was talking about removing regen. Should archers still be able to take the flaming banner, one of the sisters draws would be removed, and the only advantage over yet another RBT would be magic attacks, better mobility and survability against cannons. Which isn't too convincing compared to an additional shot, AP against everything instead of only armies of destruction, a whole secondary fire mode, and range 48". I am quite sure you'd see far less sisters if you could take the banner of the eternal flame on archers.


Reavers use spears, not lances and btw bows are weaksauce. have you ever heard someone saying "yeah awesome I can get bows"? no? well go figure out why...

One of the reasons HE can win games is because they are quite strong on the chaff wars. Part of those wars is actually tied to how good you are at removing enemy chaff. I assure you, I'm happy paying 15 points to swap 15 spears for 15 bows, and the pile of dogs and enemy fast cav my reavers have accumulated lately show they are worth it to the last point. Are they as good as Dark Riders fully equiped? no, never. RXBs are even more powerful in a fast moving unit, and 4+ is always going to be better than a 5+. But the DE player is paying 45 pts more for the same number.


also what you are convinced of does not matter, what does matter is their lore, the model representing the unit and how it is reflected by the rules. fact is Reavers are KNIGHTS of Ellyrion, those knights that by lore kicked the butts of invading DE by rerouting them into ambushes. beside that whole Ellyrion is devoted to being the masters of horse riding. I cannot remember DE having a whole state devotet to horse riding... also how much sense does it make that knights of a dying race run around with paper armor? GW even made miniatures in IoB that reflect this all but somehow they went retard mode in the rules and forgot that, the Dark Riders with shields is just added insult to this, thus you should actually understand the ******** of HE players in this regard. this does not mean that Dark Riders are not supposed to better and should not have shields, this only means that Reavers should have the regular mithral barding as option and GW failed. and BTW Dark Riders are better even without shields because they can get RXBs, just saying.

That's a completely different matter, and one I can agree with. I still think game balance should be more important than fluff in regards to rules creation, but there are some things that could have been done much better. Still that's a problem with the HE book.


the point is, that some stuff just make no sense (Reaver Knights with no barding option, core banners, etc...) or is just disgusting (hello BotWD, or the HE tax => to be competitive you have to autoinclude certain choices) in the HE book which GW could figure out by themself by using their brains for 15 seconds. they had the chance to make a perfect army book but failed, yet the DE book is alot better in that regard which was written at about the same time...

Yes, I have to, at least partially, agree with this. I absolutely abhor that banner, and the phoenix is starting to tickle me. My current grip with the HE book in general is that it has too many mechanics that promote nonsensical gameplay: cav buses filled with heroes to make the archmage stay on the backline to be able to make use of the high magic lore attribute safely, the whole BotWD...

I still play the old fasioned way and win half my battles in a very (very) competitive environment, but I can't deny I'm seriously gimping myself by not using those crutches.

Lord Solar Plexus
09-10-2013, 14:42
I'm not convinced about the Hydra. I think its definitely going to fade out of use, as it heals its wounds at the end of the turn - which means you only need to get past that mere 4+ armour save all in one go. That's not a lot to ask, especially at Initiative 2. Its also lost its Beastmasters with all their attacks and, more importantly, their Leadership.


I'm not going to make a prognosis about the future; I don't know that. However, that argument doesn't quite jive. You always only needed to get past a 4+ AS, and you always did - at least with the things for which it is "not a lot to ask" to remove it in one go, ie. hard elite units. Conventional anti-Hydra measures always included high strength flaming attacks. In the past, the beast could not save those, now it actually has a chance, and the opposition can't do anything about it. It's most certainly a lot to ask of some core Spears or Archers to take it out as an afterthought.

Dissing it because it lost the Beastmaster attacks just shows how spoiled for outstanding quality the book is. Now a lot of Hydra hate died down over the years but it was still considered too cheap; some modification had to be coming. Fading it out because it onyl lost some attacks and cannot be run into an elite unit that probably costs 2-3 times its cost...I'm a bit speechless.



To be honest, this entire thread has largely been people complaining that the meta will now be dominated by T3 5+/No armour save models, and I just don't see that.


No, Clockwork, that is not true. Not a single poster has complained about T3 or the DE's AS, or identified it as the reason for supposed domination. With all respect that is an exaggerated, hyperbolic and unfair accusation, and you won't be able to provide a single quote to prove it.

What people are concerned about is that an Elf gets seven special rules for the same price as his cousin just because of...what exactly? Of course we can start to field more Outriders or double Hellblasters and just gun down those Execs and CoK's. I somehow doubt that this is going to increase the fun in it for one side or the other...

Clockwork
09-10-2013, 15:59
I'm not going to make a prognosis about the future; I don't know that. However, that argument doesn't quite jive. You always only needed to get past a 4+ AS, and you always did - at least with the things for which it is "not a lot to ask" to remove it in one go, ie. hard elite units. Conventional anti-Hydra measures always included high strength flaming attacks. In the past, the beast could not save those, now it actually has a chance, and the opposition can't do anything about it. It's most certainly a lot to ask of some core Spears or Archers to take it out as an afterthought.

Dissing it because it lost the Beastmaster attacks just shows how spoiled for outstanding quality the book is. Now a lot of Hydra hate died down over the years but it was still considered too cheap; some modification had to be coming. Fading it out because it onyl lost some attacks and cannot be run into an elite unit that probably costs 2-3 times its cost...I'm a bit speechless.



No, Clockwork, that is not true. Not a single poster has complained about T3 or the DE's AS, or identified it as the reason for supposed domination. With all respect that is an exaggerated, hyperbolic and unfair accusation, and you won't be able to provide a single quote to prove it.

What people are concerned about is that an Elf gets seven special rules for the same price as his cousin just because of...what exactly? Of course we can start to field more Outriders or double Hellblasters and just gun down those Execs and CoK's. I somehow doubt that this is going to increase the fun in it for one side or the other...

If you don't want to make prognosis about the future, then you should probably also avoid making rather definitive statements like "The Hydra is not at all toned down" when its not true, and other sweeping generalisations. Its this that I took issue with and disagreed on.

It can only use its regen at the end of the Dark Elf players turn. That gives you a magic phase and a shooting phase or two full combat phases to kill it. That's a significant disadvantage over old Regeneration. Now you can skip taking the regen off and go straight for the kill.

It still has a role but not auto include on its own and irrelevant of what else is in the book. Isn't that a good thing?

Okay if you want to be pedantic: people are getting worked up about the strengths of something without pausing to consider their very real weaknesses, that being T3 5+. Funnily enough, this last bit has barely been mentioned at all. The bit about 7 special rules is equally hyperbole, especially as it assumes that the model with 7 special rules is inherently superior because of it (when, in reality, it means that they actually do different things).

How do armies handle High Elf combat units? Functionally there's no difference to countering dark elf combat units. Are all High Elf games a dull shooting affair? Are White Lions and Dragon Princes rolling over the meta?

Edit: Tidied up my post a bit as was in a hurry at work.

mostlyharmless
09-10-2013, 16:08
Sending block infantry against the hydra is just a bad match-up. Hit it with heavy cavalry. It has such a low initiative that it won't get a chance to strike back as you chop it to digestible bits. Even if it does survive the initial barrage, it fights back with a whole 4 attacks, maybe killing 2 guys. Then it breaks and runs because now it has a whopping leadership 6. Still sound like the insurmountable horror you think it is?

Phazael
09-10-2013, 16:18
Executioners are a point less than White Lions and a point more than Greatswords, both of whom have stubborn as a build in ability. They are NOT an especially good counter to MCav units, particularly the ones you see fielded out there. The ubiquitous Ogre MFC unit will trash even a horded unit, with impact hits shaving nearly a whole rank off before they ever get to swing and the Khorne MCav just flat out obliterate the unit (30 guys with FC, strike simultaneous, 15 hit, 13ish wound, 4ish get past the saves; 12 knights kill 5 models, the remaining mounts kill 9ish more, including stomps) that cost less. Any fight involving these units one on one ends up being a snake eyes break test for the Dark Elves. So, yeah Executioners are not an answer to MCav and the lack of stubborn makes them among the poorest GW units in the entire game. I would even put Worstigors as better than Executioners, thanks to primal fury and T4. The results are not much better against the weaker MCav units out there, unless we are lumping the Lizardmen Dactyl guys into that classification.

But its not exactly like the DE are suffering majorly in other areas and after some careful thought, the Vjayjay Belly Worm is one option to countering MCav units, but you need some serious chaff dancing to pull it off. DE are simply going to be yet another army that either wins through chaff or through magic against a lot of the blender units in the game.

Phazael
09-10-2013, 16:28
PS- Regarding L2 Black Horror, Being able to slap a L2 with a kill spell of choice on a high speed fast cav mount (or Peg) and run it down the flank to 6dice a vortex through the battle like for the win is, shall we say, one of the things people rage bout this edition the most. And, yes, you can opt for the other rather useful spells in the lore, but the mere option for the 150 point cruise missile vortex wizard is the one thing where HE (and other S3 heavy armies) have a legitimate gripe. Vanguard up, run 18 inches to line up along the battle line and six dice the vortex. Totally worth throwing away a 150 point wizard and in games against higher strength enemies, you can always select something more appropriate. Its just a dumb item, especially in an environment where they have been steadily eliminating Loremaster.

logan054
09-10-2013, 16:38
I'm not going to make a prognosis about the future; I don't know that. However, that argument doesn't quite jive. You always only needed to get past a 4+ AS, and you always did - at least with the things for which it is "not a lot to ask" to remove it in one go, ie. hard elite units. Conventional anti-Hydra measures always included high strength flaming attacks. In the past, the beast could not save those, now it actually has a chance, and the opposition can't do anything about it. It's most certainly a lot to ask of some core Spears or Archers to take it out as an afterthought.

Dissing it because it lost the Beastmaster attacks just shows how spoiled for outstanding quality the book is. Now a lot of Hydra hate died down over the years but it was still considered too cheap; some modification had to be coming. Fading it out because it onyl lost some attacks and cannot be run into an elite unit that probably costs 2-3 times its cost...I'm a bit speechless.

I actually really like how the hydra works now, rather than taking a rule that kinda fits but not quite it actually has a rule that represents the whole cutting its heads off and new ones growing back, its pretty awesome! The hydra hate hasn't died down in my parts, I took my DE's down for some games when people had been moaning about how broken my WoC list was (with the old book, no skullcrushers, mono Khorne of all things!), I don't think anyone has moaned about my WoC since ;) I gotta say a lot of the negative views I have seen about the new book seem to be a through rose tinted glasses view of the old one. The old one pretty much broke 7th ed and it wasn't all that fun to use in 8th either.

I'm going to have to get the new book and actually get some games in with the new book, it actually looks like its a lot more fun to use! (its just a shame I haven't found a fun way to build a WoC list :( ).

Rakariel
09-10-2013, 16:53
Maybe the new hydra regen rule is an indication what we will get for regeneration in general with 9th. I mean regenerate does mean something grows back, not that you ignore a wound that has been inflicted. I myself like it aswell tbh.

logan054
09-10-2013, 16:58
Maybe, its certainly a step back to how it use to be in 6th ed if thats the case, I've never been a fan of how regeneration was changed.

Odin
09-10-2013, 17:19
I agree with most of what you said, except for the bellow.



If someone is using the tome to guarantee black horror I would be a very happy general. Word of Pain or that LD debuff can be way nastier, while soul stealer has great synergy with PoD. Black Horror is good, but as far as test or die spells go, it is one of the weaker ones, it allows ward saves and most of the nasty choices are S4+ making it less useful than say initiative based kill spells.



Not sure if serious or maybe you meant black guard? Execs are 12ppm, S6, killing blow, and strike at initiative, on top of that almost auto wound against toughness 4. They're pretty much the bane of all things armored and should do well against even MCav. You need to support them but they can be pretty damn brutal, especially if you have the likes of a life mage to cover their squishyness.

Certainly they make GW Marauders look a bit silly. Same price as a Khorne Marauder with GW and light armour, but so much better. Only downsides are not Core and fewer attacks (though all the rerolls make up for the attacks), but higher S, strike at I, better Ld, KB, faster movement. I know it's not easy to compare across different slots in different armies, but I'd take executioners over Marauders any day.

Knifeparty
09-10-2013, 17:21
Maybe the new hydra regen rule is an indication what we will get for regeneration in general with 9th. I mean regenerate does mean something grows back, not that you ignore a wound that has been inflicted. I myself like it aswell tbh.

You could be right about this, however Lokir Fellheart still has normal regeneration.

On the topic of Hydra's, I've said it before but I'd rather pay 240 points for the monster we had than 160 pts for a monster I don't want. I think it has been gimped to the point of being ineffectual unless you take 4+ monsters.

Having the regeneration happen at the end of the turn in my opinion makes the Hydra almost worse in survivability than if it had no regeneration at all. If the enemy knows it has taken a couple of wounds off the thing then it becomes the main target of everything in the army until it dies, because your opponent knows that it can regen those wounds unless it dies so it automatically becomes an arrow magnet.

Against a good opponent it won't see the end of the phase to even regen those wounds.

IcedCrow
09-10-2013, 17:28
Which may be the point of fielding a hydra. Removing shots off the rest of your army while it engages.

Rakariel
09-10-2013, 17:31
Thats the thing really. Its very cheap, it can regrow wounds so unless your opponent doesn`t focus on it it might go back to full strength. This will draw the focus away of other troops who are far more squishy. Now if you take two hydras its still no big point investment and if not dealt with are still capable of doing alot of damage.

Veshnakar
09-10-2013, 17:35
Which may be the point of fielding a hydra. Removing shots off the rest of your army while it engages.

My thoughts exactly! Back in the 6th edition dark elf days when the book was largely considered rubbish and MSU was one of the few ways to be relatively competitive I learned a lot with target prioritization and giving the opponent too many threats to engage effectively. Depending on what happens in 9th edition regarding the rules of steadfast and hording, I can definitely see a resurgence of MSU style with all of the elven armies. So much in the dark elf and high elf books benefit and hint at this style of play.

IcedCrow
09-10-2013, 17:38
I think people just get tied up into how a model is going to "make its points back" but fail to see every role in an army other than "how much can it kill". If it cannot reliably "make its points back" then it is "useless and garbage".

I plan on using one or two hydras. Their primary function is to protect me from fast cavalry and light units. Their secondary function is to draw fire away from the remainder of my army while I move to engage. Considering my army is all T3 for the most part with little armor, a turn of not being shot and magic'd to death while a "good opponent focuses on my hydras" is exactly what I want.

I'd daresay any one that focuses on my hydras is not a good opponent and is making a mistake.

Clockwork
09-10-2013, 17:56
Vanguard up, run 18 inches to line up along the battle line and six dice the vortex. Totally worth throwing away a 150 point wizard and in games against higher strength enemies, you can always select something more appropriate. Its just a dumb item, especially in an environment where they have been steadily eliminating Loremaster.

After using Warlocks to Soulblight a target of oppertunity too ;)


Certainly they make GW Marauders look a bit silly. Same price as a Khorne Marauder with GW and light armour, but so much better. Only downsides are not Core and fewer attacks (though all the rerolls make up for the attacks), but higher S, strike at I, better Ld, KB, faster movement. I know it's not easy to compare across different slots in different armies, but I'd take executioners over Marauders any day.

Executioners don't get rerolls to hit from ASF. They only count vs High Elves due to Hatred (High Elves). The re-rolls from Murderess Prowess are negligible (though they make up for fluffing, as LSP pointed out, but that's why you calculate for averages anyway).

On another point, GW Khorne Marauders aren't the only way to run Marauders. The two units have different roles.

Odin
09-10-2013, 18:05
I think people just get tied up into how a model is going to "make its points back" but fail to see every role in an army other than "how much can it kill". If it cannot reliably "make its points back" then it is "useless and garbage".

I plan on using one or two hydras. Their primary function is to protect me from fast cavalry and light units. Their secondary function is to draw fire away from the remainder of my army while I move to engage. Considering my army is all T3 for the most part with little armor, a turn of not being shot and magic'd to death while a "good opponent focuses on my hydras" is exactly what I want.

I'd daresay any one that focuses on my hydras is not a good opponent and is making a mistake.

You mean the book might be about the Dark Elves with some other units in support rather than the other way around? Heresy!

Knifeparty
09-10-2013, 18:21
If it works for your army then use it.

I was at the point of dropping my 2 hydras for the last 6 months anyway. I found that there were very few opponents that I wanted to take on with these guys, and they were at their prime back then. I feel like there's nothing really that these guys can offer me currently that I would want to invest points into. The Kharribdyss on the other hand I do find useful.

gd09garett
09-10-2013, 18:30
SNIP
Its just a dumb item, especially in an environment where they have been steadily eliminating Loremaster.

Aye, to such an extent that even the army which has a Loremaster character has no way of getting the Loremaster ability [outside of special characters which don't count]. Oh, the irony ;).

SniperLum
09-10-2013, 20:00
So now Dark elves are able to use life and light lores...yeah...torture and life magic match so well together...

logan054
09-10-2013, 20:17
Having the regeneration happen at the end of the turn in my opinion makes the Hydra almost worse in survivability than if it had no regeneration at all. If the enemy knows it has taken a couple of wounds off the thing then it becomes the main target of everything in the army until it dies, because your opponent knows that it can regen those wounds unless it dies so it automatically becomes an arrow magnet.

With the easy access to flaming attacks half the time it may as well not had regeneration, losing M&H certainly has a impact, but with flaming cannons, archers with flaming banners I can't see how this makes a real difference, just means if you fail to kill it off it should get some wounds back, it certainly less abusable than the 6th ed regen (that was silly in challenges with chaos heroes!)

loveless
09-10-2013, 20:21
yeah...torture and life magic match so well together...

They do. It's a lot easier to torture someone if you can keep them alive - then you can really get crazy with the pain you're inflicting.

Life magic probably also comes in handy when setting up food supplies for the cities - sure, the slaves are doing all the work, but you have to get stuff to grow and survive in Naggaroth somehow :p

Additionally, I'd argue that if the Dark Elves shouldn't get Life magic, the High Elves likely shouldn't get Death magic. Just saying :p

Von Wibble
09-10-2013, 20:21
I'm not going to make a prognosis about the future; I don't know that. However, that argument doesn't quite jive. You always only needed to get past a 4+ AS, and you always did - at least with the things for which it is "not a lot to ask" to remove it in one go, ie. hard elite units. Conventional anti-Hydra measures always included high strength flaming attacks. In the past, the beast could not save those, now it actually has a chance, and the opposition can't do anything about it. It's most certainly a lot to ask of some core Spears or Archers to take it out as an afterthought.


Actually you have 2 goes to remove it. Regeneration saves are only taken at the end of the Dark Elf turn, so if you throw a block of IC knights (for arguments sake, I know you could claim more optimal units exist) you could expect to cause 4 wounds on the turn you charge (3 from knights, 1 from horses), and then only need 1 more in the next round to kill it, before it gets to make a single regen. S5 is hardly going to do anything to you in return either.

Or you could cause 3 wounds with a cannon in your turn (not that unlikely), and then in its own turn the dark elf player has to pray you aren't capable of getting 2 wounds on it if it charges your troops. A horde of halberdiers near a Hurricanum averages about 2 wounds for example, so that's a bit risky to say the least (OK, I assumed they passed the fear check), and even without horde formation or Hurricanum you don't need to get that lucky - and that assumes no characters in the unit.

I don't necessarily think they will fade out of use either, but I do think they look like a model to take 0 or 3 of in a game now (points permitting).

Phazael
09-10-2013, 21:10
Hydras are junk. They were already on the way out with the proliferation of viable 1+ save cav units and MCav units in newer books. The last thing they had going for them was that they were the most efficient infantry chewers in the game, but the loss of the handlers pretty much ended that. They are redundant with just about every other unit in the book, at the moment. And that's fine, really. There are a lot of other options to consider in the book now and I know I am not alone in being tired of seeing the "Two Hydras, Sac Dagger Shadow L4, and Lord of Unkillable Cockblocking" across the table from me every time I faced DE. Two out of three ain't bad, I suppose.

SteveW
09-10-2013, 22:53
My regular DE opponent says he isn't bringing his hydra any more just because my it can no longer stand up to a charge from anything, it hardly even gets to swing with it's I2.

mostlyharmless
09-10-2013, 22:58
The thing about the hydra is that it can no longer operate independently. It needs to cover the flank of another unit, or do a combined charge with other critters. Gone are the days when the hydra was a high priority threat. It's been brought in line with other monsters, and this is for the best, I think. It can still be potent with fire breath and/or the fire shots it can put out, and if you send it into good match-ups and pick your targets carefully, you will be pleased with the results.

sysy16
09-10-2013, 23:09
Dragon Prince champion cannot take star lance.

What? That's crazy talk! Its Mounted Character only. The model is both mounted and allowed 50 points of magic weapons (if in doubt - Army Builder allows him to take it).

.

Would not trust army builder....great tool that it is.

Don't get me wrong, I don't like the point that the DP champ can't take star lance but it is argued that he is not a character so cannot take it.

Ask around, you will see this is a common dispute


Finally, to those saying that Dark Elves should have access to all magic, don't get me wrong, I don't believe that they can't use it and understand that to use dark magic they will have to be able to manipulate all 8 strands...

but there is a reason that life and light are seen as not very Dark Elf.... why does The Everqueen only get Light, Life or High?

Why does Morthai, the most powerful sorceress only use Dark, death and shadow. (or what ever it is it certainly is not Light or Life!)

It just seems odd seeing dark elves running around healing stuff. But I accept that if magically inferior humans can take all 8 then Dark Elves certainly should be able to access it even though feels wrong to me.

I think Death on a HE mage seems wrong as well...

Shadeseraph
09-10-2013, 23:11
Certainly they make GW Marauders look a bit silly. Same price as a Khorne Marauder with GW and light armour, but so much better. Only downsides are not Core and fewer attacks (though all the rerolls make up for the attacks), but higher S, strike at I, better Ld, KB, faster movement. I know it's not easy to compare across different slots in different armies, but I'd take executioners over Marauders any day.

I'm not quite sure why people persist on comparing Marauders to other GW units (last comparison I saw was against White Lions). Special ones, at that. Being core is huge, not just a minor thing that can be dismissed, and I believe everyone agrees marauders are slightly overpriced now (compared to before, when they were largely underpriced). I mean, I can do the same, and compare Black Guard or Swordmasters, both special choices, to halberd Chaos Warriors, which are actually core.

daynewma
09-10-2013, 23:13
On another point, GW Khorne Marauders aren't the only way to run Marauders. The two units have different roles.

Well, there isn't a good way to run Marauders.

I think GW's biggest mistake in this book was the Black Horror spell. It seemed, at first, from ALL of the 8th edition army book lores (besides Chaos Dwarves) that GW was moving away from the "Take ___ test or die/remove from play" nonsense. Lore of Nehek, Lore of Vampires, High Magic, Lore of Tzeentch/Nurgle/Slaanesh. The six spell in those lores that is the most comparable is Nurgle's Plague Wind, which does a vortex that is T test or WOUND with no armour saves. Why, oh why, did we need a possible 40 inch vortex version of Dwellers Below this far into 8th edition? Seems unreasonable and wholly inconsistent.

Clockwork
09-10-2013, 23:17
but there is a reason that life and light are seen as not very Dark Elf.... why does The Everqueen only get Light, Life or High?

Why does Morthai, the most powerful sorceress only use Dark, death and shadow. (or what ever it is it certainly is not Light or Life!)


Personal preference? Greatest affinity?

mostlyharmless
09-10-2013, 23:18
Why did we need one? Because it has a 1/6 chance of plopping right on top of that girl scout and teaching her why you don't divide by zero.

loveless
09-10-2013, 23:19
I think GW's biggest mistake in this book was the Black Horror spell. It seemed, at first, from ALL of the 8th edition army book lores (besides Chaos Dwarves) that GW was moving away from the "Take ___ test or die/remove from play" nonsense. Lore of Nehek, Lore of Vampires, High Magic, Lore of Tzeentch/Nurgle/Slaanesh. The six spell in those lores that is the most comparable is Nurgle's Plague Wind, which does a vortex that is T test or WOUND with no armour saves. Why, oh why, did we need a possible 40 inch vortex version of Dwellers Below this far into 8th edition? Seems unreasonable and wholly inconsistent.

Black Horror allows for a Ward Save though, doesn't it?

Clockwork
09-10-2013, 23:19
Well, there isn't a good way to run Marauders.
.

Sure there is. More than once I have heard a Warriors of Chaos player successfully push his big monster into combat, only to find it stuck there for 3-4 rounds, cursing Steadfast - and yet how many cheap blocks of Steadfast-busting Marauders do you see, to name but one example?

The problem is that the Warriors of Chaos book is spoilt by the sheer number of choices that just need to be pushed forwards. This leaves you looking at Marauders and finding something that can't beat the snot out of everything else in the game; which doesn't have near-immunity to weaknesses; and which require tactical application in order to work; and so they get written off as being "useless."

Lord Zarkov
09-10-2013, 23:53
Personal preference? Greatest affinity?
Exactly

A given wizard (even an elf, with only a few exceptions) can't use every lore to the full extent - that's why you have to write down your lore choice in your army list - that's what that wizard specialises in. HE Loremasters are particularly special in that they can use every lore, but get only the most basic spell from each. Even those skilled in High and Dark magic won't be able to use the full extent of most of the individual lore as, while they use every wind to make their spells, they're not as practised and adept at manipulating single winds on their own.

Morathi and the Everqueen are highly skilled wizards and that's why they can use the full abilities of three whole Lores, but even their power has limit and they can't master everything.

Morathi uses Dark, Shadow an Death because that's where her skill lies - others will differ, for example Supreme Sorceress Julith Blogis might not be so proficient with cunning illusions and manipulating souls, but is adept at causing vines and thorns to writhe out of the ground and entangle her enemies, and infuse her servants with a dark vitality that sees them shrug off injuries that would usually be mortal, or summon grasping talons to shoot out of the ground and drag her foes into the depths - Jade magic, but used for dark purpose.

daynewma
10-10-2013, 00:02
Sure there is. More than once I have heard a Warriors of Chaos player successfully push his big monster into combat, only to find it stuck there for 3-4 rounds, cursing Steadfast - and yet how many cheap blocks of Steadfast-busting Marauders do you see, to name but one example?

The problem is that the Warriors of Chaos book is spoilt by the sheer number of choices that just need to be pushed forwards. This leaves you looking at Marauders and finding something that can't beat the snot out of everything else in the game; which doesn't have near-immunity to weaknesses; and which require tactical application in order to work; and so they get written off as being "useless."

No, no. Marauders, unlike many troops, will outright die from S3 shots. They're slow (M4), and have no armour. If you give them armour, they become way too expensive.

The problem with the Marauders is definitely not that the other choices are better at doing that (which they are, true). They're bad at going forward and smash. They're also bad at busting steadfast, because any sort of S3 and above missile fire will delete them and quickly begin to force panic tests. Unlike Chariots, they're not fast enough to get there, and they would almost certainly give up more combat res than the wounds they'd cause (causing you to lose combat). When they were cheap, they could be taken in ludicrous numbers for little points, becoming steadfast troops with GW. You didn't care how many died; you could take enough to horde them so that it didn't matter. After near doubling in cost, it just didn't make sense anymore to play that way. Which is fine, but here's the rub: they weren't good at anything else and still aren't. They're naked S3 T3 guys. You could upgrade them, yes, but at the higher point costs why not just take Chaos Warriors?

I definitely agree that the only way to play WoC at the moment is "go forward, smash" or, for brevity's sake, "GFS." Obviously, the things that are best at GFS (Nurgle chariots, Chimeras, Skullcrushers) are going to beat out the choices that aren't that good at GFS (Dragon Ogres, new monsters, Shaggoths) or less cost effective (Chaos Knights, sadly).

However, just because a unit is worse doesn't mean it becomes tactical to use it. Dragon Ogres are worse at GFS than Skullcrushers. But they don't work any differently; you wouldn't play differently with Dragon Ogres than you would Skullcrushers. They do the same thing, but worse. You use them in the same way, but get worse results. It's not the difference between, say, Shades and Dark Riders.

Shades and Dark Riders have different purposes, and can fulfill different roles. Warlocks (as fast cav) can also fulfill these roles and plus (warlocks are crazy). However, there aren't that many subtleties in Warhammer: Warriors of Chaos.

Myster2
10-10-2013, 00:38
Sending block infantry against the hydra is just a bad match-up. Hit it with heavy cavalry. It has such a low initiative that it won't get a chance to strike back as you chop it to digestible bits. Even if it does survive the initial barrage, it fights back with a whole 4 attacks, maybe killing 2 guys. Then it breaks and runs because now it has a whopping leadership 6. Still sound like the insurmountable horror you think it is?

I'll trade you. You take super OP bastilidon for the lizardmen books and we'll take the hyrda. They are both in special and both have similar costs. The bastilidon has 3 attacks at S4, I1 and a 2+ save. Leadership 6. You know you want it...

There seems to be a trend here. I wonder if in 9th edition monsters will have some type of immunity to rank bonuses.

mostlyharmless
10-10-2013, 01:20
I'll trade you. You take super OP bastilidon for the lizardmen books and we'll take the hyrda. They are both in special and both have similar costs. The bastilidon has 3 attacks at S4, I1 and a 2+ save. Leadership 6. You know you want it...

There seems to be a trend here. I wonder if in 9th edition monsters will have some type of immunity to rank bonuses.

To be fair, the bastilidon and hydra serve different purposes. The bastilidon is a far tougher mobile artillery platform or swarm generator. It serves a support role, rather than a front-line fighting role.

Lord Solar Plexus
10-10-2013, 06:08
If you don't want to make prognosis about the future, then you should probably also avoid making rather definitive statements like "The Hydra is not at all toned down" when its not true,


Why? These are statements about the present, and of course they are true. Sweeping generalizations, huh? You realize I'm just saying the opposite of what you say? They're either both generalizations or none.



It can only use its regen at the end of the Dark Elf players turn.


It can now use its regen. That's a considerable advantage over the past.



That gives you a magic phase and a shooting phase or two full combat phases to kill it. That's a significant disadvantage over old Regeneration. Now you can skip taking the regen off and go straight for the kill.


Four phases could kill an old Hydra. A single cannon could kill an old Hydra (especially when it had flaming attacks). If it got any wounds through, they would stick - now that's not a certainty. It's a complete wash.



Okay if you want to be pedantic: people are getting worked up about the strengths of something without pausing to consider their very real weaknesses, that being T3 5+.


Yes, I very much prefer pedantry to outright lying, thank-you very much. :p Would you like an example of your own rhetoric? Don't complain about the Hydra because it can regain wounds! See what I did there? Of course that's not what you said...if you are pedantric.



How do armies handle High Elf combat units? Functionally there's no difference to countering dark elf combat units. Are all High Elf games a dull shooting affair? Are White Lions and Dragon Princes rolling over the meta?


Insubstantial. The question at the heart of this thread is: Why do the equivalent DE units need to be better, partly even considerably better?


Sending block infantry against the hydra is just a bad match-up. Hit it with heavy cavalry. It has such a low initiative that it won't get a chance to strike back as you chop it to digestible bits. Even if it does survive the initial barrage, it fights back with a whole 4 attacks, maybe killing 2 guys. Then it breaks and runs because now it has a whopping leadership 6. Still sound like the insurmountable horror you think it is?

Same procedure as always.

SteveW
10-10-2013, 07:15
Well, there isn't a good way to run Marauders.

.

Unmarked horde of flails. Try it, they do work.

Scammel
10-10-2013, 07:19
Insubstantial. The question at the heart of this thread is: Why do the equivalent DE units need to be better, partly even considerably better?


Because they aren't? The only 'equivalent' units where I think a case could be made for this is with the chariots, but even then the HE boat hits harder in CC.

Clockwork
10-10-2013, 09:06
Nonesense

Sigh. Lets go over this one more time.

BRB Regen gives you a 4+ save vs anything that isn't Flaming all the time.

Hydra Regen only works at the end of the Dark Elf player's turn.

Flaming is now completely irrelevant as it won't get its Regen save until much later in the phase of playing. You can shoot or hit it as if it had already been stripped of Regen and quite plausibly kill it before it survives until the end of the Dark Elf players turn without needing Flaming. Flaming cannons? Nope, mundane cannons will do it now. Hell, mass BS fire might do it (remember when everyone criticised the Troglodon and Carnosaur? That was in part because T5 4+ isn't good enough for a big monster). You can now chip some wounds off it with magic missiles and then follow up with shooting with only a single and modifiable 4+ save to contend with. Even if you fluff your wound rolls or something and only take a couple off it, that both reduces the damage its going to do in combat and the Dark Elf player has to be cautious about putting it in to combat in case it dies before getting its Regeneration rolls.

That's not a complete wash - its a significant disadvantage. I'm sorry if you can't see it but its there. On top of that it lost the Beast Handler attacks and leadership, and its Hatred. To repeat, your statement that is hasn't been toned down at all is demonstrably false.

Now I personally think that this is a good change as I despised the old Hydra as much as anyone.


Insubstantial. The question at the heart of this thread is: Why do the equivalent DE units need to be better, partly even considerably better?

With two exceptions (Dark Riders and Shades), they aren't. But if you want to list the units that have a Dark Elf equivalent and which you feel are better, I'll be more than happy to give it some thought. I also happen to feel that White Lions and White Lion Chariots are better than Executioners and Cold One Chariots, so surprisingly, parts of one book are better than parts of others.

One on one? Dark Elves appear to have the advantage through Hatred re-rolls. If all games started in close combat, and only lasted for the first round of combat. That High Elves have a lot of long range BS shooting, as well as fast-moving flexibility (to get into flanks and negate that Hatred) in all their slots, and can re-roll without the need of a BSB (and Leadership effects appears to be one of the Dark Elf main weapons).

Rakariel
10-10-2013, 09:38
Without wanting to criticise anyones opinion I would say don`t get worked up too much about it either way. We haven`t played many games (if any) with the new Hydra yet so this is all still theorizing. And even after we have played some games and it turns out the Hydra is too strong/too weak I wouldn`t throw in the towel just yet. As has been already mentioned earlier maybe there is a trend where the new monsters are heading and it will make more sense once 9th is released.

Shadeseraph
10-10-2013, 11:23
Nah, we can argue if the hydra is or not a functionally competitive choice, but it IS weaker in all ways compared to its previous versions: Loss of Hatred is significant, attacks in relation to the number of wounds left on a I2 model means it won't be attacking at full power ever, and if it is the one receiving the charge it -won't- be at full power at all, as the enemy is the one deciding the match ups. Ld6 means it has to be babysat by the general, which kinda makes its role as flanker weak, and it has effectively lost 6 S3 AP attacks in exchange for a single extra S5 attack at max wounds. It also lost the ability to get support from a cauldron.
It has two things going for it that it lacked before: Sorcs getting Life means they can heal the hydra, while previously it was stuck at watherver number of wounds it had left, and it doesn't care about flaming weapons anymore.


With two exceptions (Dark Riders and Shades), they aren't. But if you want to list the units that have a Dark Elf equivalent and which you feel are better, I'll be more than happy to give it some thought. I also happen to feel that White Lions and White Lion Chariots are better than Executioners and Cold One Chariots, so surprisingly, parts of one book are better than parts of others.

I'm not saying your argument is wrong, but just for the sake of discusion, frankly I feel the CoC is actually far better than the LC. Yes, it has less killing power, but T4 AS4+ on a model with such killing power makes it a big target, and it isn't that hard to take down. Unlike the CoC, killing one with basic BS fire is actually quite possible. I would say that resilience (and the additional impact hit, which is important) is the reason you see CoC picked now and then, while the lion chariot collects dust in a corner. That, and the concept is even sillyer than the Skycutter, which at least has a very cool model.

As for other comparable units... Black guards are worse than swordmasters against a large amount of threats, though they do eat swordmasters for lunch, Corsairs are better than Lothern sea guard in all kind of ways, Dreadlords and DE nobles (I don't know the name) are strictly better than princes and HE nobles individually (Sea Dragon Cloak, MP working for Dark Elven characters, Dark Steed confers the Fast Cav rule), but HE princes/nobles can hide under the banner of the world doomed and get core heavy cav to support them. CoK have a slight edge against certain targets over DPs, but I'd say DPs have wider target coverage, and M9 vs M7 is huge. Harpies and Eagles have the same problem: they are in a very competitive environment. Still, Great Eagles are cheap and efficient enough that you'll see some of them, while Harpies are too damn expensive.


One on one? Dark Elves appear to have the advantage through Hatred re-rolls. If all games started in close combat, and only lasted for the first round of combat. That High Elves have a lot of long range BS shooting, as well as fast-moving flexibility (to get into flanks and negate that Hatred) in all their slots, and can re-roll without the need of a BSB (and Leadership effects appears to be one of the Dark Elf main weapons).

My general assesment is that the game will go to whoever wins the movement wars. DE are better in the chaff and chaff removing department, and shooting also goes to them (RXBs in DR and shades make for a powerful anti chaff tool, even if people persist on saying the basic RXBowman is on equal footing than an archer, and warlocks are a solid addition too. DE have better access to RBTs, and then there is the thing about the cauldron Strength of Khaine working for shooting), but HE have better overall movement options (wider access to chariots, heavy cavalry in core, flying monsters). The thing about shooting against DE, though, it's that it is going to be in high demand against DE chaff, which is actually very killy for chaff.

In magic, while it is true the Book of hoeth is individually better than any single thing DE can bring, Warlocks and power of darkness create a very solid magic phase, that can overwhelm the HE magic phase without too much of a problem, though defensively HE still have an edge.
That said, while my opinion is that Dark Magic is a better rounded lore than High Magic because of the current meta, High Magic is better tailored against Dark elves of any kind. Soul quench is more efficient due to the low casting values than Doombolt against T3 AS5+ elves, Walk between words is huge in such a movement based match, Fiery Convocation is downright scary, Drain Magic shuts Word of pain and Power of darkness, Apotheosis can give a DE player the fits when frostie gets back to full wounds, unforging can shut any attempt at unkillable characters, and DE is one of the rare match ups where Tempest actually shines. Comparatively, Chillwind is just meh, Bladewind is weak against most HE units, half the effect of shroud of despair is wasted, and soul stealer is actually decent. Black Horror and Word of Pain are the big winners, though.

As for general match ups, witches murder any HE without a barded horse under his or her legs, while those who have one murder witch elves. Executioners have the advantage against White lions and silver helms, but die to anything else, and the advantage against white lions is small enough that stubborn may actually present a problem. Frostie murders anything not witch-like (yes, even execs).

Odin
10-10-2013, 11:48
I'm not quite sure why people persist on comparing Marauders to other GW units (last comparison I saw was against White Lions). Special ones, at that. Being core is huge, not just a minor thing that can be dismissed, and I believe everyone agrees marauders are slightly overpriced now (compared to before, when they were largely underpriced). I mean, I can do the same, and compare Black Guard or Swordmasters, both special choices, to halberd Chaos Warriors, which are actually core.

Only brought them up because someone else suggested that executioners were rubbish compared to other similar units.

Lord Solar Plexus
10-10-2013, 12:08
Sigh. Lets go over this one more time.


That won't be necessary - I'm sorry but I still disagree with your premises. I know for a fact that it would be more problematic for my ICK w/ BotEF to kill it now. Don't take it personal, it isn't, just math, and as a matter of fact my opinion about it doesn't matter one bit for DE players deciding what to field.



But if you want to list the units that have a Dark Elf equivalent and which you feel are better, I'll be more than happy to give it some thought.


That already happened in the first post, and yet all you did was brush it aside. To say it in your words: Sorry that you can't see it (that's a convincing phrase, isn't it?). ;)

trotsky
10-10-2013, 13:12
Now I just want to see the Phoenix King driving the continent of Ulthuan into the Empire because he was really craving some Marienburger Meat Pies.

I don't think it can move. But that doesn't matter. It should be able to move and therefore can.

morganleah
10-10-2013, 17:07
I am a High Elf player who is actually excited at the challenge posed me by this book. Yeah Dark Elves have a few nice new additions but honestly isn't this suppose to be a War game not a War? Yeah I was a little disappointed that DE got ASF not because I want it to be totally exclusive to HE but because I felt it was a little bit of lazy design.(and that is only MY opinion not a criticism). But roll on my first game vs the old enemy, if I win I win if I lose I lose and I adjust my tactics and try again no harm done! All this fighting on forums is just a bit disheartening were all war gamers not 5 year olds!!

(Disclaimer all this is just my opinion and views not 100% cast iron fact)

Myster2
10-10-2013, 17:27
I am a High Elf player who is actually excited at the challenge posed me by this book. Yeah Dark Elves have a few nice new additions but honestly isn't this suppose to be a War game not a War? Yeah I was a little disappointed that DE got ASF not because I want it to be totally exclusive to HE but because I felt it was a little bit of lazy design.(and that is only MY opinion not a criticism). But roll on my first game vs the old enemy, if I win I win if I lose I lose and I adjust my tactics and try again no harm done! All this fighting on forums is just a bit disheartening were all war gamers not 5 year olds!!

(Disclaimer all this is just my opinion and views not 100% cast iron fact)


Don't take my opinion as fact either as I don't routinely play as HE but I think the issue with the DE vs HE matchup revolves around ASF and initiative. Elves single greatest way that they kill stuff is they swing before it and get a better chance to hit it. This mitigates their T3 by eliminating stuff before it gets to swing back. DE's not only remove ASF but have a higher I in many places which means they have taken away that advantage completely unlike any other army out there.

Not only that, they retain thier rerolls through hatred. This essentially means that a HE army fighting a DE army is like starting the game vs any other army and saying "I choose to not have re-rolls and to swing after your stuff does today, I know my units have a "tax" of points built into them for this ability but its okay, i think I'll do just fine".

warplock
10-10-2013, 17:32
Don't take my opinion as fact either as I don't routinely play as HE but I think the issue with the DE vs HE matchup revolves around ASF and initiative. Elves single greatest way that they kill stuff is they swing before it and get a better chance to hit it. This mitigates their T3 by eliminating stuff before it gets to swing back. DE's not only remove ASF but have a higher I in many places which means they have taken away that advantage completely unlike any other army out there.

Not only that, they retain thier rerolls through hatred. This essentially means that a HE army fighting a DE army is like starting the game vs any other army and saying "I choose to not have re-rolls and to swing after your stuff does today, I know my units have a "tax" of points built into them for this ability but its okay, i think I'll do just fine".

I thought initiative didn't matter if you both have always strikes first. You both strike simultaneously, right?

morganleah
10-10-2013, 17:41
Totally agree with you its a pain and thus my opinion that it was lazy design just to go boyah ASF on DE there must have been another way to address the perceived imbalance of ASF vs Eternal Hatred but it will just mean instead if you know your playing DE and I do accept this is not always possible (I am only a casual player because of the fact I have children to look after AND I don't enjoy the painting side of the hobby) you will have to adjust your army build HE have plenty of ways of countering the ASF vs ASF problem + I6 problem. we have a spell that raised I value! like I said when my gaming group roll up with their shiny new DE army to get me back for all times I have got the upperhand by fighting first I will just have to think of a way on the day to minimise the effect of this! I love this game but for me a loss is better than a win if I revert to Banner+Book+Jeff(my Frosty) and 6 dicing auto kill magic! cos I actually don't like annoying the people who take the time to come and spend the day round my house on there days off from work to play a game that above all is supposed to be fun for both players!

theunwantedbeing
10-10-2013, 17:48
I thought initiative didn't matter if you both have always strikes first. You both strike simultaneously, right?

Yeah that's it, ask the guy who clearly doesn't know the rules what the rules are.

It's okay, we all fail our stupidity tests every so often, usually at a crucial moment....
Elves without great weapons go first, with re-rolls unless they have a lower initiative than whatever it is they are trying to kill.
Elves with great weapons strike in initiative order, without re-rolls from ASF.
Simple!

I do like the irony of the irate High Elf players who are struggling with the concept of not always getting to go first and re-roll to hit all the time.

Odin
10-10-2013, 18:17
I do like the irony of the irate High Elf players who are struggling with the concept of not always getting to go first and re-roll to hit all the time.

Is that the Alanis Morisette definition of "irony"?

Clockwork
10-10-2013, 18:52
That won't be necessary - I'm sorry but I still disagree with your premises. I know for a fact that it would be more problematic for my ICK w/ BotEF to kill it now. Don't take it personal, it isn't, just math, and as a matter of fact my opinion about it doesn't matter one bit for DE players deciding what to field.

Maybe you should actually read my posts rather than getting passive-aggressive.

Your Knights will have exactly the same damage output for two phases whether you're trying to kill the old Hydra with BotEF or the new one without BotEF. Even better, because the Hydra loses attacks with wounds, and because it no longer has Hatred, and because it no longer has Beastmaster attendants, you'll lose fewer models to it and consequently do more damage within that window. I don't know what kind of build that you run, but it seems impractical to be trying to go for more than two rounds against either version (either losing the Strength bonus from charging, or allowing the Hydra to strike first with Great Weapons seems counter-intuitive).

That you can't see how advantageous it is to have two entire rounds to deal damage to the Hydra without it getting a Regeneration save speaks volumes. Compared to the old Regeneration, its like having Flaming on your entire army within that window. Why are you still stuck in the mindset of trying to use something that's not changed dramatically vs a Hydra, instead of making use of other things that have got significantly better against it?




That already happened in the first post, and yet all you did was brush it aside. To say it in your words: Sorry that you can't see it (that's a convincing phrase, isn't it?). ;)

I dismissed it out of hand as the knee-jerk and uninformed whinefest that it was, and actually asked what you thought was better, but ok.


Spearelves have the same equipment, points and stats. But the DE spears have hatred against HE (which means 25% more hits in the first round of combat) and their own special rule (rerolls for 1 on the to wound roll). The special rule from HE with spears is only good if you have more bodies in the unit.

High Elf Spearmen special rules: Valour of Ages, Martial Prowess, ASF.
Dark Elf Spearmen special rules: Hatred (High Elves), Murderess Prowess, ASF.

Three for three. Dark Elves hit more in the first round of combat, but High Elves get more attacks. In equal numbers its practically a wash, with the bonus from Murderess Prowess providing only a negligible bonus at best on averages. And to top it off the High Elves get to re-roll Panic/Fear/Terror tests; all of which look to be strong components of a Dark Elf list. In isolation the Dark Elves might edge out slightly ahead - I haven't fully statted out a combat beyond round 1, where the Dark Elves inflict one more wound on average. But games aren't fought in isolation. I'm sure that when the the Dark Elf player fails as Panic/Fear/Terror outside the BSB bubble, he'd like to re-roll it too.


HE core can only take one magic banner (and only with spears), DE core units (except dark riders) can all have magic banners up to 25 points (or 50 for witch elves). Really?

And High Elf Specials can take more magic weapons, and better ones. Not to mention Dragon Princes can take banners over 50 points that Dark Elves can't do at all. So does this mean High Elf Special is inherently superior?


Sea cloak is so much better (just another +2 to AS) against a lion pelt.

On infantry? White Lions do better out of it because they get a higher save than Corsairs do at range. Its a wash in melee. On characters? High Elves also get access to Dragon Armour with a built in Talisman of Protection and Dragonbane Gem, for the same cost as both and which doesn't eat into magic allotment. Should Dark Elf players kick off because they don't have Black Dragon armour?


Now the DE wizards can take all lore from the BRB, have the better special rule and hatred and are 5 points cheaper than the HE wizards. Why? And they can also ride on a dark pegasus (which grants her more flexibility).

This just might possibly have something to do with a certain lore that grants +1 ward save, which is miles better than the occasional S1 AP hits. Perhaps that could account for the pricing difference, maybe?

And High Elf Mages can get a barded Steed that is both faster and without the Stupidity of a Cold One.


One unit of HE have a ward save (and there was much complaining about the lore attribute of the High lore spells), but now the De have two units which have 4+ ward saves (and one unit is also a sorcerer).

This fails to consider that one of those ward saves is only applicable in combat. Meanwhile, you have things like Dragon Princes with 2+ wards vs Searing Doom.


Compared with DE HE are really slow and weak, just one HE unit has Ini 6 and one has S4, but 5 DE units have Ini 6 and 3 have S4.

This is incorrect. Dragon Princes and Phoenix Guard have I6. And I see that this conclusion was also reached by counting Cold One Chariots. So High Elves have two units at S4 (White Lions and White Lion Chariots). High Elves also have more units with 5+ armour saves. But are we really judging the strength of one book against another solely by numerical stat comparison? Are Wood Elves better because they have more units that are T4 than either army? Or have more bows on their models?

Its a false equivalence in any case because Dark Elves have more unit entries. A proportional comparison would be fairer, if you thought this sort of thing is important (it isn't).


I though that with the 8th army books the balance was good, but now with this comparision I think they have passed a good chance for balancing the books.

Which is just nonesense, as it infers the balance between all books excluding Dark Elves is acceptable, but the Dark Elf balance vs High Elves is bad, ergo the Dark Elf balance vs all books is bad. Its faulty logic and factually incorrect: would you say Warriors of Chaos, Ogres, Daemons of Chaos, and Tomb Kings were all on the same level? Of course not.

Which leads me to the conclusion:


Or have I overseen anything? What did you think? Are HE better (or at least at the same level) as DE? Or is it the same old story like 7th edition with better De then HE story?

And this one is just as bad for citing one period in book history when Dark Elves were better than High Elves as if that was evidence of a larger trend (ignoring some of the dire Dark Elf books from days past), and failing to consider any of the things that High Elves do differently or better than Dark Elves by citing only a few references that seem to support his position.

Kahadras
10-10-2013, 19:16
I do like the irony of the irate High Elf players who are struggling with the concept of not always getting to go first and re-roll to hit all the time.

I think most of the 'irate' players are those who jumped on board the Bannerstar band wagon back when the new army book came out. I don't think the majority of HE players care that much and there certainly hasn't been any where near as much screaming, complaining and whining as there was when people were discussing the Banner of the World Dragon. Heck we're only on page 12 at the moment. Personaly as a HE player I'm quite happy that DE got a boost in the combat department. My memories of DE from the last book revolve around tons of Dark Magic, an almost unkillable fighting character and a million crossbow/bolt thrower shots.

Von Wibble
10-10-2013, 20:27
Yeah that's it, ask the guy who clearly doesn't know the rules what the rules are.

It's okay, we all fail our stupidity tests every so often, usually at a crucial moment....
Elves without great weapons go first, with re-rolls unless they have a lower initiative than whatever it is they are trying to kill.
Elves with great weapons strike in initiative order, without re-rolls from ASF.
Simple!

I do like the irony of the irate High Elf players who are struggling with the concept of not always getting to go first and re-roll to hit all the time.

I think warplock was asking for clarification when both sides have ASF. Under those circumstances both sides strike simultaneously and no rerolls are gained. So the Dark Elves do not strike before High Elves. However, Dark Elves do get rerolls in round 1 thanks to hatred.

One thing I do wonder is if they will make hatred have a disadvantage in 9th edition again, such as forced pursuit.

NemoSD
10-10-2013, 21:45
I have played the new Dark Elf book, and my High Elves did not get trounced as they were supposed to according to this thread. Yes, this is one example, and a personal observation that goes against the established acceptable personal anecdotes, so please forgive that I do not have millions of stats to back myself up with.

During the fight, many spearmen died. None of them died without taking darkies out with them. Of course, I had my Loremaster drop Wyssan's on them, just before he turned his attention to some witch elves, which got hit with the death signature to regain some spell dice, before I slammed a fire ball into his chariot, and so on so forth. My reavers may not be as good as the DE light cav, but well his bolt throwers didn't do much... they had horsies and elves poking them with long sticks.

The fight in the end was really really really close, but more importantly, the game was fun. Everything he did, I had a counter for and vice versa. The game played out like two groups of people who have you know hated and been fighting each other for centuries.

donaldtroll
10-10-2013, 23:22
how can people say daemons suck when they have the number 1 and 2 for most broken units in the game?

(skull cannon is no 2 btw, the cheese-beast stands alone)

daemons are totally sick, but not very varied... like lizardmen


I have played the new Dark Elf book, and my High Elves did not get trounced as they were supposed to according to this thread. Yes, this is one example, and a personal observation that goes against the established acceptable personal anecdotes, so please forgive that I do not have millions of stats to back myself up with.

During the fight, many spearmen died. None of them died without taking darkies out with them. Of course, I had my Loremaster drop Wyssan's on them, just before he turned his attention to some witch elves, which got hit with the death signature to regain some spell dice, before I slammed a fire ball into his chariot, and so on so forth. My reavers may not be as good as the DE light cav, but well his bolt throwers didn't do much... they had horsies and elves poking them with long sticks.

The fight in the end was really really really close, but more importantly, the game was fun. Everything he did, I had a counter for and vice versa. The game played out like two groups of people who have you know hated and been fighting each other for centuries.

sorry if i am derailing this, but it appears to me that the death signature spell could only ever cause 1 wound to a unit of witch elves, or am i wrong? I thought you literally just targeted a model (champion i guess)

warplock
11-10-2013, 00:18
Yeah that's it, ask the guy who clearly doesn't know the rules what the rules are.

It's okay, we all fail our stupidity tests every so often, usually at a crucial moment....
Elves without great weapons go first, with re-rolls unless they have a lower initiative than whatever it is they are trying to kill.
Elves with great weapons strike in initiative order, without re-rolls from ASF.
Simple!


None of that has anything to do with what I posted... Never mind, Von Wibble has answered my question. Unfortunately I did not have the rules to hand, and people kept talking about dark Elves striking before high Elves sometimes due to the abundance of initiative 6 units. My suspicion that that was all poppycock has now been vindicated.

Rudra34
11-10-2013, 00:20
sorry if i am derailing this, but it appears to me that the death signature spell could only ever cause 1 wound to a unit of witch elves, or am i wrong? I thought you literally just targeted a model (champion i guess)

No, you're right. I just read that too and figured that they had played it wrong. It only targets a single model, so can't do more than 1 wound when targeting a unit of infantry.

NemoSD
11-10-2013, 00:53
No, you're right. I just read that too and figured that they had played it wrong. It only targets a single model, so can't do more than 1 wound when targeting a unit of infantry.

That was the way I read it as well, but he argued that just because a model only had one wound, didn't mean it couldn't take more then one wound. I didn't want to argue rules, and since I'd rather had 4 chances to get dice back instead of one, I just let his version stand. I have researched it a bit since then, and found nothing definitive either way. If you know a source, other then a tourney FAQ, that clarifies this, please do tell me.

m1acca1551
11-10-2013, 05:13
I have played the new Dark Elf book, and my High Elves did not get trounced as they were supposed to according to this thread. Yes, this is one example, and a personal observation that goes against the established acceptable personal anecdotes, so please forgive that I do not have millions of stats to back myself up with.

During the fight, many spearmen died. None of them died without taking darkies out with them. Of course, I had my Loremaster drop Wyssan's on them, just before he turned his attention to some witch elves, which got hit with the death signature to regain some spell dice, before I slammed a fire ball into his chariot, and so on so forth. My reavers may not be as good as the DE light cav, but well his bolt throwers didn't do much... they had horsies and elves poking them with long sticks.

The fight in the end was really really really close, but more importantly, the game was fun. Everything he did, I had a counter for and vice versa. The game played out like two groups of people who have you know hated and been fighting each other for centuries.

Sorry did you say fun??? Do you mean that you can actually have fun playing a game of WFB without rofl stomping your opponent into the ground turn 2 by using broken or games gimmicks?? Wow I'm stunned :p (please note was being sarcastic)

If actual in game evidence can provide facts of the game being fun yet challenging well that means that both books are balanced against each other nicely. Afterall that's why we play isn't it?? For fun :)

IcedCrow
11-10-2013, 13:32
Its only fun if you end up enshrined in nottingham's warhammer hall of fame for all time.

:)

loveless
11-10-2013, 17:10
Its only fun if you end up enshrined in nottingham's warhammer hall of fame for all time.

:)

I just got an image of a hall with walls adorned with neckbeards frozen in carbonite, dice and monster models grasped firmly in hand...

IcedCrow
11-10-2013, 17:40
Yes! Don't forget a rulebook in their other hand and a condescending look on their face etched forever into history.

Lord Solar Plexus
11-10-2013, 17:41
Maybe you should actually read my posts rather than getting passive-aggressive.

I'm sorry you got this impression, that was honestly not my intention. I simply disagree with your view, and as Ihavetoomuchminis so aptly put it, it's entirely possible I keep failing my personal stupidity tests. Once more, whatever I think about any model isn't relevant for DE players. I'm perfectly happy not to see a Hydra, although it wasn't particularly difficult to bring down in the past.

plantagenet
12-10-2013, 14:54
The HE vs DE match is interesting as a unit on unit basis you really have to think about the matchups. Witch Elves for me represent the highest risk unit to the point where i think HE player must avoid direct close combat with them. I 6 on them combined with large number of attacks and the rerolls means you will pay a heavy blood price in any combat. Archers, Bolt throwers, fire phoenixs and chariots would be my answer, magic obviously can also change the situation. The frost phœnix could reduce them to ST 2 which would obviously greatly reduce there effectiveness however the poison on them combined with fact a six always wounds means you are Atkins a risk with a key asset. Black Guard also pose a big problem and should only be engaged at range or when sufficiently reduce in numbers that chariot charges can finish them.
The other area I think you will see a difference is in the formations of the unit. HE will tend to hâve smaller frontage and more ranks than DE which as a whole benefit more from higher A units and gain more from horde formation.

NemoSD
12-10-2013, 15:45
I solved my Witch Elf dilemma by throw 30 Block of PG at them face first. They did not like that. The silver helms in the flank just made it worse for them.

SteveW
12-10-2013, 16:14
I solved my Witch Elf dilemma by throw 30 Block of PG at them face first. They did not like that. The silver helms in the flank just made it worse for them.
I threw a paladin with the Wyrum lance at them and they seemed to evaporate down to a number that my men at arms could handle.

NemoSD
12-10-2013, 17:20
I threw a paladin with the Wyrum lance at them and they seemed to evaporate down to a number that my men at arms could handle.

Yeah Witch Elves only do well in narrow situations. The PG swing at the same time as them, and do not let them have rerolls, but the PG have a hefty ward save, are str 4, and in the above case, were Wyssened from the Loremaster, meaning S5 T4... in short not happy witches and that was before my silver helm also pulled off the flank, so a bunch of str 5. Oh sweet blood baths :-p

Lord Solar Plexus
12-10-2013, 18:33
I solved my Witch Elf dilemma by throw 30 Block of PG at them face first. They did not like that. The silver helms in the flank just made it worse for them.

Do you usually take PG or was that a tailored list?

Apart from that it sounds as if you outplayed your opponent. What does that tell us about the relative strengths of the books? Please note that I think you're being extremely unfair and distorting the intent of the thread (and probably fully aware of it as it is so obvious) when you claim it supposes that HE must get massacred in every single game until 11th edition.

BlackPawl
12-10-2013, 18:43
Yeah Witch Elves only do well in narrow situations. The PG swing at the same time as them, and do not let them have rerolls, but the PG have a hefty ward save, are str 4, and in the above case, were Wyssened from the Loremaster, meaning S5 T4... in short not happy witches and that was before my silver helm also pulled off the flank, so a bunch of str 5. Oh sweet blood baths :-p


Yeah, if I get my PG (special choice, more points per model) with a support spell (wyssan) against a core unit I would have expect that they would have to win.
But the witch elves will still have rerolls in the first turn for being hatred!

warplock
12-10-2013, 19:08
Witch Elves for me represent the highest risk unit to the point where i think HE player must avoid direct close combat with them. I 6 on them combined with large number of attacks and the rerolls means you will pay a heavy blood price in any combat.

Their Initiative 6 doesn't really matter against HE though does it, since HE will strike simultaneously with them regardless of their Initiative.


Oh sweet blood baths :-p

Are you sure you're not a Druchii?

NemoSD
12-10-2013, 19:47
Do you usually take PG or was that a tailored list?

Apart from that it sounds as if you outplayed your opponent. What does that tell us about the relative strengths of the books? Please note that I think you're being extremely unfair and distorting the intent of the thread (and probably fully aware of it as it is so obvious) when you claim it supposes that HE must get massacred in every single game until 11th edition.

First, I always take PG, one of my favorite thematic units. As for your claim that I said I was always getting slaughter by DE before the new book, well you must be a very inaccurate mind reader (Only played DE once before), because none of my posts ever indicated a past event prior to the one in which I mentioned.

The intent of this thread was to whine about the DE book being OMGWTF OP. It is not. It is good, and on the surface it looks like HE +1, but in truth it is not. However, broad stroke perceptions like this often fueled by the internet are not known for nuance. All I said was that the book was not the autowin people keep saying it was.

And I want to point out one specific thing you said. "It sounds as if you outplayed your opponent." That right there is the entire freaking point of a game. TO OUTPLAY YOUR OPPONENT.

Think about that for a moment, because you said that is if it were an explanation for why the DE BOOK lost, not the player. The Book failed because the player sucked. That is what you implied.

The fact of the matter is, the DE book has to be played. It is not an autowin, and it is a bloody fierce book, but that fierceness is mitigated by even more fragility then the High Elves deal with, and a strong reliance on getting into close combat, where as a player who has had army wide ASF for a long time, ASF is not always enough. Chaos Warriors among other high toughness good armor units weather the storm just fine.

As to sending a special against a core. a very killy core. Lets think about this from a table top perspective. Send a horde of Spearmen in against the elves. I could Wyssen them, and they would probably do quite well. Or I could Wyssen the PG, send them in, and which how the witches are decimated.

Also this thread has made it clear that people think witches are so good they should not be core... so what is wrong with comparing them to none-core choices?

plantagenet
12-10-2013, 19:54
Only Dragon Princes and Phoenix guard have i6 in HE list the rest like Moss of the dark elves are i5. The fact witch elves have i6 mean if you wanted to attack with another unit you would first have to survive the witch elves attacks be fore you get to attack back. This means throwing in a spearman block is not ā good idea as there won't be many if any left to kill the witch elves, so all you do is throw away your own unit for little if any depletion of the enemies. High armour is good against witch elves as they are only St. 3. However witch elves throw out ā lot of attacks. So if we hard ten silver helms charge them we could expect the unit of 30 witch elves to have 7 in base to base. Thats 21 attacks plus another 14 from 2 ranks and another 1 from the champion for ā total off 36 attacks. 75% hit so you have 27 hits. Of those 27 hits 4.5 auto wound due to poison. So of the other 22.5 you get 11.5 wounds plus an additional 1 wound from the murderous prowess for ā total off 17 wounds. Off which 2.8 silver helms Die. The problem comes in that the silver helms cant hit back. Of the 7 left you get 3.5 hits and 2.9 kills and the horses do another 1.25 kills which is not enough to win the combat due to ranks and cancel frenzy. Dragon princes fair much better with 10 hits and 8.34 kills and another 1.25 kills from the horses which should essentially kill one rank of witches and stop frenzy greatly curtailing the number of attacks they have in the next combat phase. So from this I would say 10 strong units of Dragon princes were a fairly good answer to witches.

warplock
12-10-2013, 20:03
That's not true, you still strike at the same time as the witch Elves even if you only have Initiative 5, if you also have Always Strikes First.

Lord Zarkov
12-10-2013, 20:03
Only Dragon Princes and Phoenix guard have i6 in HE list the rest like Moss of the dark elves are i5. The fact witch elves have i6 mean if you wanted to attack with another unit you would first have to survive the witch elves attacks be fore you get to attack back.
This premis is wrong - ASF vs ASF is simultaneous regardless of initiative, in HE vs DE initiative is only relevant for who gets re-rolls vs great weapon troops.

SteveW
12-10-2013, 20:32
Yeah Witch Elves only do well in narrow situations. The PG swing at the same time as them, and do not let them have rerolls, but the PG have a hefty ward save, are str 4, and in the above case, were Wyssened from the Loremaster, meaning S5 T4... in short not happy witches and that was before my silver helm also pulled off the flank, so a bunch of str 5. Oh sweet blood baths :-p

Yeah, the men at arms always are fielded with the prayer icon and wysaans so S5 T4 and 5points a model. T3 no armour save troups don't take much to melt. In my next game with them I lobbed a few trebs at them and rained arrows on em as well and the 40 were down to 7 by the time they hit combat.

Freman Bloodglaive
14-10-2013, 04:46
I hear toughness 3 with no armour, and I think mortar.

Kakapo42
14-10-2013, 05:35
I hear toughness 3 with no armour, and I think mortar.

I hear toughness 3 and no armour, and I think Glade Guard at any range. Or any other bowfire for that matter.

Lord Solar Plexus
14-10-2013, 06:08
As for your claim that I said I was always getting slaughter by DE before the new book


Huh? Where did I say that? :confused: First you fail to understand the thread's intent and jump on the bandwagon of those who always assume the worst possible motives, now you're demonstrably lying? Nemo, Nemo...I think I can just snip the rest of your babbling before my blood pressure rises even more.


I hear toughness 3 with no armour, and I think mortar.

Where's the connection here?