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JDV311
07-10-2013, 02:58
Can they be competitive in the current meta? Sure they can be played for fun and hope for the best BUT do they stand a chance winning a tournament. I've got one coming up in a few months and was thinking of breaking them out for the 1st time this edition.

Lord Solar Plexus
07-10-2013, 08:20
Well, I don't have all that much experience with them but I chanced upon a pretty mean list on the weekend. Two big blocks, Gors and Bestigors, both with good strength, 4 chariots, L4 Beasts, L4 Shadow, L1 Beasts, Herdstone, bunker, stonethrower-type monster. Now this was a comped environment where they get 200 points more and all monsters only cost 200 points but S5-6 hordes w/ PF were a pretty scary prospect for my Knights and Spearmen. I'm not entirely sure it would have been a lot different with less relaxed comp either - they could just have dropped that monster which didn't do anything but die to cannon anyways.

Makaber
07-10-2013, 12:38
They're good (I'd say the most underrated army in the game at the moment), but they don't really play the way the author seems to have intended. Furthermore, the internal balance of the book is pretty damn bad, so the most successful lists will (almost) always be built on the same principles.

In short, the book will trick you into thinking its strength is ambushing. This is a lie. You need a massive amount of units in total to qualify for the sheer number of ambushers that would need to work, which you really can't afford, and the individual units won't be effective. Instead, pretty much all Beastmen armies are built around large blocks of Gors and Bestigors, with a lot of characters and magic to support them. The typical list will be:

At least one Level 4 Shaman.
A BSB with the Beast Banner, in a ...
Big block of Gor (40+), alongside a ...
Big block of Bestigor (35+).

Support this with some of the best chaff in the game, such as:

Harpies.
Lone Razorgor.
Chariots ...

... to make sure the big infantry blocks don't get overwhelmed. Other common tricks are:

The Herdstone Battery. Take Shard of the Herdstone, and surround it with about 3 Level 1 Shamans with Lore of Shadow. Then spam Miasma with them, to tilt combats in your favour.

The Mega-Minotaur. Take a Minotaur Lord, deck him out with Ramhorn Helm, Gnarled Hide, the reroll armour save shard, and some other stuff. In effect, create a combat monster with an impenetrable armour save that punishes the opponent for hitting him, then run him solo into a regiment to force the enemy to do so. Cackle manically at resulting carnage.

Finally, don't be tempted by the Rare choices, all the monsters are overpriced, and almost all are pretty damn bad too.

Ed.: Oh, and head over to the Herdstone (http://z8.invisionfree.com/herdstone/index.php?) for all your Beastman needs. Competent and friendly advice, minus the naysayers.

Malagor
07-10-2013, 17:06
Yes they can be competitive especially since more 7e books are getting nerfed a bit, making the beastman book better.
And in a tournament that uses comp-rules then beastmen get even better(atleast the swedish comp) since the guys that did that quite clearly didn't think highly of Beastmen(like most people do) so they aren't affected that much.
Then of course you got the surprise factor that comes with the fact that Beastmen are a bit of a unknown army for many people so they have no idea what they can actually do.
Add this to internet wisdom that say that Beastmen are one of the weaker armies then they are very often in for a nasty surprise.

rocdocta
08-10-2013, 06:11
The only competition my beastmen have in 8th is space on the shelf with my dwarves...

popisdead
21-10-2013, 17:43
There are generals who can win tournaments with them but the book is a hard win.

If you really love the infantry models then go for it. If it is a passing interest just play something else.

I think they are solid but then I've put my time in to know how to play them.

Catflap
23-10-2013, 22:07
It is a good army. I lost a lot of battles when i started with them but got better when i saw how things worked together. I have to say it's not an easy army. When i finally understanded how chaff and redirecting worked things turned around. I don't understand why beastmen get such a bad rap. Maybe someone wrote once on the web that beastmen are bad and other people read it and say...yeah they suck without even knowing the army? Have they never seen a rambull, bestigor horde and gor horde with banner in action backed up with magic? Do they know how difficult it is when units of hounds, raiders and even lone pigs keeps them away from targets while units of harpy's flying above them? Do they know Ghoros Warhoof will kill your monsters while old sluggy can murder your warmachines or cav to name a few before the battle even starts? Weird.

Chicago Slim
26-10-2013, 20:33
Echoing the statements above, they can definitely win battles, but it'll take strong play to do it. Focus on the infantry, including (especially) Bestigors. You'll read a lot about the Minobus concept, if you do much reading-- personally, I think that's a little too easy to your opponents to draw out and re-direct into chump-fights (Minotaurs having Frenzy and being relatively slow-moving). So, if you want to use Minotaurs, you have to support them with things that'll clear the road for them to get at the worthy targets they need to be chewing up (cavalry, big blocks of infantry) and not the enemy's chaff. That support can come from chariots, harpies, razorgors, and magic, but coordinating the support with the main effort is not as easy as just pushing the plastic across the table.

Alternatively, you can build around big blocks of Bestigors, supported by big blocks of Gors (who are S3, max, but have a decent T4 and WS4, so they can take a while for enemies to wear them down). That still means finding the right match-ups, but that's part of what makes the game fun, right?

So, not an army for a player who's looking for "training wheels" early in their career, but definitely fun to play, with some great flavor and interesting options (and models) to work with.

Catflap
26-10-2013, 22:28
One thing that most of the time works is the beast banner bsb (206 build) in a horde of gors. It gives T4, WS4, ST4 gors. With add handweapons that is a lot of attacks with re-rolls! Now that is tasty right? Hey look...3 lvl 1 beast shamans with wildform around a herdstone. One is bound to get off. T5,WS4,ST5 gors with re-rolls. (if you get primal fury but that almost never fails) :)

Replicant253
26-10-2013, 23:55
I do well with my beasts, my friends think they are brutal and cannot understand why they have such a poor standing according to 'the internet'. I even take at least one rare as I love the models, but the armies strength rests in solid blocks of gors, bestigors and to a lesser extent Minos backed up by wild form buffs combined with primal fury, add some chaff to the mix and you are good to go.

I never leave home without the 206 unit previously referred to.

I think the real complaint with beasts is that if you want to focus on being competitive then half the book is of questionable value.

Sent from my Nexus 10 using Tapatalk 4

thesoundofmusica
27-10-2013, 09:36
Beastmen have good matchups and bad like most armies. Few valid builds, a hard time against fliers and 1+ armor save doesnt really make for alot of tournament wins considering current meta (in most places) is packed with fliers and MC.
Against infantry block armies we do well.

Malagor
27-10-2013, 10:44
Yeah the beast banner while expensive is pretty much mandatory. Slap on a wildform or 2 on that horde of gors and it will just destroy pretty much anything it charges.
And they do seem to do well in tournaments as well. Someone posted a list of the tourney scene in Germany I think it was and Beastmen was 3rd place.

thesoundofmusica
27-10-2013, 15:28
There are many unknown variables behind such a statement as "Beastmen are 3rd best army in Germany".
Sure comp can buff the lesser armybooks and dampen the real powerbuilds of other armies.
But uncomped some of the powerbuilds out there are just brutal on Beastmen and uncomped I dont see Beastmen winning (m)any larger tournaments.
At the beginning of 8th was another story. Meta was gravitating towards hordes and ours were pretty good at smashing up others. Now with fliers and MC and 1+ armor saves "everywhere" thats not the case anymore.
I think we're a middle-of-the-pack army, you can certainly do well with Beastmen. But if someone asked me for a powergaming tourney army I wouldn't say Beastmen.

Malagor
27-10-2013, 16:57
Well pretty sure it was comped and well the comp is very friendly to Beastmen.

Juicy21
27-10-2013, 18:08
Beastmen seem to do fine against armies like ogres.. If your local meta runs alot of ogres.. Your beastmen have the tools to deal with them!
I think beastmen are a lot stronger then people think. its just like brets half the book is overcosted/worthless/can be done better.. Withs gets anoying and you find yourself playing the same trick over and over again.:)
They sure are a hell of a fun to paint tho;) with a nice theme on them those beastmen can look awsome!

fishound7
02-11-2013, 03:37
Ok i've been thinking about a 2500 savage beasts list lately

Check this out it is expensive but...

beastlord h armor ahw general
beastlord h armor ahw
Wargor h armor beast banner gnarled hide shield
wargor h armor ahw
wargor h armor ahw
wargor h armor ahw
many fiend limb
40+ horde of ahw gor full cmd.

All those characters in that unit.

ok Great bray shaman. So its all about this guy. Either bunker him and follow gor horde or put him in the horde of gor kitted with fencer blades 4+ward jagged dagger. you also have room for a lvl 2 scroll caddy

If you bunker him which is obviously the safer answer take powerstone. Powerstone is there to ensure you can cast boosted savage beast on a 19+ on the turn you charge into combat. Obviously you want to IF it.

So dmg output.
Thats 50 attacks (with GBS in unit) from just characters 7+ strength with most being around str 8 and a few 9's coming from beastlords. All rerolling to hit. I dunno what can stand up too this. The mathhammer on this is pretty silly too.

Since most of it is characters. Whatever you hit is basically auto-dead. The biggest thing with this build is you want to strike first. The opposition should turn into pink-mist.

Toughness 4, 5 or 6 don't matter.
1+ armor doesn't matter really.

Now the nice thing also about this is you can give little cheap magic items too some of your characters. those 5 point items become pretty useful. Like the 2+ ward save to fire, or potion of speed to another wargor.

Now this unit is retarded expensive. But if most of the unit dies to shooting/magic you will still murder face.

Building a unit like this takes all the strengths of beast lore into account.

Even unbuffed the unit is pretty strong. Since the Wargor's are str 5 and the beastlords are str 6 due to the beast banner. It just gets silly with boosted savage beast.

fishound7
02-11-2013, 03:38
now you still have cheap toys to buy. You can get 40 bestigor and a ton of chaff still.

dalezzz
02-11-2013, 09:16
Put many limbed fiend on a beast lord rather than a wargor (assuming you haven't spent all their allowances) they have the str 5 :)

popisdead
05-11-2013, 18:55
Best bet is buying cheap Wargors and Wissan's so your front line is T6 with 3 S5 attacks each and run it as a bus.

envy
05-11-2013, 19:02
It is a good army. I lost a lot of battles when i started with them but got better when i saw how things worked together. I have to say it's not an easy army. When i finally understanded how chaff and redirecting worked things turned around. I don't understand why beastmen get such a bad rap. Maybe someone wrote once on the web that beastmen are bad and other people read it and say...yeah they suck without even knowing the army? Have they never seen a rambull, bestigor horde and gor horde with banner in action backed up with magic? Do they know how difficult it is when units of hounds, raiders and even lone pigs keeps them away from targets while units of harpy's flying above them? Do they know Ghoros Warhoof will kill your monsters while old sluggy can murder your warmachines or cav to name a few before the battle even starts? Weird.

You can't just anecdotally list things. Everybody gets chaff, most people get flying skirmishers, and Ghoros and Slugtone are both mediocre or worse (Ghoros is awful). Sure there's stuff in the army book that does things, but a lot of it just doesn't. See Ungors, Centigors, all the special characters, Razorgors (and their herds).

Whoever costed their Monsters should've been fired on the spot, any idiot can see they're just really bad. Or played with his mates who houseruled that no shooting or magic missiles were allowed in the game, ever.

The lack of plastic chariots also makes me incredibly furious, because that's probably the coolest part of the army.

popisdead
06-11-2013, 17:16
Hmm you seem more angry than rational. All Beastmen generals have been through that at one time or another in 8th edition ;-)

fishound7
06-11-2013, 17:16
Although beastmen are not top tier I think people unjustly place them lower then they deserve to be on the power level. They can be fairly solid.

The problem with them is that they are a attrition type army. Meaning your going to lose points almost guaranteed. Where WoC(high armor armies) preserve their points very well. Beastmen have to lose points to gain points. Since beastmen have no real defenses (as in armor/ward saves). All they have is toughness/numbers but str 3 can get through any type of toughness. So beastmen have a hard time to be able to get 20-0's as easily as other armies that can preserve their points.

In my opinion this is why you won't see a lot of beastmen armies out there winning tournaments. Not that it can't be done. But the odds are stacked against you due to army make-up and how tournaments generally gauge success.

envy
06-11-2013, 17:27
Hmm you seem more angry than rational. All Beastmen generals have been through that at one time or another in 8th edition ;-)

No, you seem unable to actually come up with a rational argument for why bad overcosted units are "good" just because they can theoretically do something on the battlefield.

Malagor
07-11-2013, 17:31
Slugtongue is decent tho, random and the lore he can take isn't that good but he can be a good with his aura.
And Khazrak is good overall as well even if you don't use his ambush reroll.
I think fishound7's point that you have to waste points to earn points is a accurate one.
We got units that will just tear stuff up(beastigors and minotaurs) but will have to do it on the bodies of gors.
That's not to say Gors can't be nasty as well, have a beast banner with them and throw some wyssans on them and they will make most enemies drop one in their pants.

decker_cky
07-11-2013, 23:50
You can't just anecdotally list things. Everybody gets chaff, most people get flying skirmishers, and Ghoros and Slugtone are both mediocre or worse (Ghoros is awful). Sure there's stuff in the army book that does things, but a lot of it just doesn't. See Ungors, Centigors, all the special characters, Razorgors (and their herds).

Slugtongue is probably as good as any special character from an 8th edition book. He gets better as armies get more elite. 8th edition has progressively gotten more dependent on smaller elite units (monsters and monstrous cav), so he's improved relatively.

Ungors are costed perfectly compared to similar 8th edition models. They provide a cheap steadfast unit. I take a block of 40 almost every game to tie up a nasty unit. They also fight like elites against cheaper chaff. Against goblins, skavenslaves, etc.., you're hitting on 3's with rerolls and have some decent protection, while remaining cheap enough to have ranks and break steadfast on those units.

Single razorgors are one of the greatest chaff units in the game. And by one of, I mean they are probably the best chaff unit in the game right now - even better than sabretusks which can't use the general's leadership so are vulnerable to panic. 55 pts for 3 T5 wounds, and 4 S6 attacks on the charge with a stomp. Amazing units. Larger herds have some issues (largely no command and base size issues), but it's a great value block for the damage output (and a great place to put a minotaur character).

Centigors aren't great. Not useless, and it's incredibly fun to say "I'm rolling to see how drunk they are."

Not going to argue about the rares and other special characters. Honestly, the only change that's hurting beastmen in 8th edition is the amount of flyers out there. Otherwise, they compete with anything.

Malagor
08-11-2013, 06:23
Cygor is really the only rare choice that is decent. Can never go wrong with a moving stone-thrower. Overcosted yes but can earn back his points. Who know, might even cause a wizard to miscast.
Jabber is only useful against certain armies but atleast he flies.
Ghorgon however is the biggest shame. He could be so good if only he had some way of defending himself..

And I would love to field an army of centigors but they are so expensive(money-wise).

popisdead
08-11-2013, 15:22
No, you seem unable to actually come up with a rational argument for why bad overcosted units are "good" just because they can theoretically do something on the battlefield.

This must be your version of that?

dalezzz
09-11-2013, 10:43
Love Ghorgons personally , nice to see true terror in your opponents face :) now if they had normal regen , hydra style regen or if that stupid heal attack didn't have always strike last ( when you need it your dead before you can use it .... Great) and I would love them even more :)

Cygors just oust drop stones on themselves when I've used them , I can see they have potential though

yet to use a jabber ( finally got one too) can't see it being overly useful though , anything msu enough for it to have an impact on will have high Ld I think , gobo warmachines would disappear I suppose :)

Malagor
09-11-2013, 18:27
Well you are at I1 if you use the healing attack so you aren't always strikes last but I see your point.

dalezzz
09-11-2013, 18:35
Yeah you get to go before great weapon troops..... Might keep you in the fight against some of them I suppose, some will just mince you all the same but then that's your own fault for fighting them in the first place!

Yowzo
11-11-2013, 13:41
The lack of plastic chariots also makes me incredibly furious, because that's probably the coolest part of the army.

Use orc boar chariots. That's what most people do anyway (I've found minotaur shields make great wheels).

Malagor
16-11-2013, 15:22
Or better yet, pick whatever chariots you want.
Beastmen don't build chariots to begin with so they would steal them.
Pick Tomb Kings chariots if you want.

Brotheroracle
16-11-2013, 19:47
Or better yet, pick whatever chariots you want.
Beastmen don't build chariots to begin with so they would steal them.
Pick Tomb Kings chariots if you want.

I think the gorebeast chariot with a rider swap would make a good razorgor chariot.

Malagor
16-11-2013, 19:56
I had in mind the tomb kings one with chaos hounds as beasts. 3 chariots for decent price :)

Sexiest_hero
16-11-2013, 23:20
Slugtongue is probably as good as any special character from an 8th edition book. He gets better as armies get more elite. 8th edition has progressively gotten more dependent on smaller elite units (monsters and monstrous cav), so he's improved relatively.

Ungors are costed perfectly compared to similar 8th edition models. They provide a cheap steadfast unit. I take a block of 40 almost every game to tie up a nasty unit. They also fight like elites against cheaper chaff. Against goblins, skavenslaves, etc.., you're hitting on 3's with rerolls and have some decent protection, while remaining cheap enough to have ranks and break steadfast on those units.

Single razorgors are one of the greatest chaff units in the game. And by one of, I mean they are probably the best chaff unit in the game right now - even better than sabretusks which can't use the general's leadership so are vulnerable to panic. 55 pts for 3 T5 wounds, and 4 S6 attacks on the charge with a stomp. Amazing units. Larger herds have some issues (largely no command and base size issues), but it's a great value block for the damage output (and a great place to put a minotaur character).

Centigors aren't great. Not useless, and it's incredibly fun to say "I'm rolling to see how drunk they are."

Not going to argue about the rares and other special characters. Honestly, the only change that's hurting beastmen in 8th edition is the amount of flyers out there. Otherwise, they compete with anything.

This man speaks the truth, Razorgor herds with the doombull are just fantastic, our harpies scout, ungor beat any other like core to dust, and gor are just as solid. I run an Ungor bus with a always frenzied gore bull and a beastbanner gor herd. I hold my own well, with top contender lists. At this point idk what some beastmen players want.

Malagor
17-11-2013, 00:47
Well let's start.
1. Ambush Rule which is actually worth doing. The Green Knight got at the moment the best ambush rule in the game and while a horde of gors with that rule would be very broken, it's a good place to start.
2. Lore of the Wild needs to be remade and be made decent.
3. Items need to be removed or revamped. Since 8e is all about less items in the army books I suggest banner of outrage and totem of rust should be removed as they are truelly horrible among other things.
4. Rare section need to be completely rebuilt, changing all the points cost for the units in it along with gear option.
5. Special characters that are actually decent would be nice too for example Malagor is just too expensive since you can get a lvl 4 shaman that is way better for alot less points, Gorthor is as dumb as it gets unless.....
6. Chariot units. Gorthor went to war with tons of chariots. Allow us to have chariot units like HE and Tomb kings.
7. All true beastmen and minotaurs get a leathery hide rule which gives them a 6+ armor save. As things are now, there is no reason to ever equip shields on gors or minotaurs and that's a shame since it just highlights the biggest flaw in the book which is the lack of true options. A 6+ armor save along with free shields might allow us to see more diversity since a cheaper gor with 5+ armor with parry might actually be an option worth considering.
8. Ungors are not true beastmen so they do not get leathery hide nor do they get primal fury or cause panic for true beastmen. They are as expendable as gnoblars are to the Ogres and should be treated as such.
9. Except for a few units, beastmen tend to be over-priced so a price adjustment all around is needed.

JDV311
17-11-2013, 14:16
These are all excellent points. I will definitely keep playing them for fun locally but I'll leave them on the shelf for the bigger tourneys I travel for. I was really looking forward to bringing Slugtongue to the Shiloh tournament in January but alas they have banned all the SC's from the soft cover books. He would have been a good counter to all the monsters and chariots we see nowadays. Dp's, Chimera's, chariots, phoenix's, all cannons and etc etc dont seem as scary when they start the game half dead!

Memnos
26-11-2013, 07:55
Beastmen are a solid army. They have strong characters, herdstone spam and some of the best support in the game.

Downsides: Overcosted monsters, overcosted core, and the need to "spend" victory points to get them (Razorgor assassins for mages in units, redirectors, etc).

They're an interesting army that plays very differently to any other army. It can work, but you have to ignore the various special effects (army rules that appear to do something, but are only an illusion: Cygor anti-wizardry, ambushing, etc.) And concentrate on either big
Character face-smashing or underhanded sideways tactics.

dalezzz
26-11-2013, 17:44
Not sure the core are actually over costed tbh , gors stack up pretty well against most other core infantry IMO . To too sure about ungor as I've yet to paint any :)

decker_cky
26-11-2013, 23:59
Not sure the core are actually over costed tbh , gors stack up pretty well against most other core infantry IMO . To too sure about ungor as I've yet to paint any :)

Gors and ungors both cost about what they should if they were released in 8th edition again.

rocdocta
27-11-2013, 00:10
I don't think anyone has a drama with gors. its the supporting special and rares that hurt our book.

dalezzz
28-11-2013, 06:50
Rares yes , only minotaurs in special though..... Wich is kind of the the atraction the a beastmen army for a lot of players!

popisdead
06-12-2013, 17:51
A lot of people have found success with Minotaurs, most often with a Minobus but some people swear by 7 and a hero.

I am having a blast with said Minobus. It is becoming the terror of the LGS

Rogzor87
07-12-2013, 04:37
I run a Minobus in a 2500 list only because I haven't purchased Bestigors to replace them with. It runs 6 Minotaurs, 2 Gorbulls and 1 Doombull.

dalezzz
07-12-2013, 06:27
I love my minotaurs but they do tend to fall over pretty easy , when you can get 4 bestigors and some change for the price of one of the big fellas I know wich I'd usually take..... Doombull obviously :p

decker_cky
08-12-2013, 21:13
Yeah...minos themselves are overpriced. If your meta isn't cannon heavy, you can import the minobus into a unit of ungors for almost all the advantages, but with cheap ranks, command and steadfast.

popisdead
09-12-2013, 17:12
I have a list with 2x36 Ungors each with a Gorebull, 4+ ward, GW. Lots of fun :)

decker_cky
10-12-2013, 03:07
I have a list with 2x36 Ungors each with a Gorebull, 4+ ward, GW. Lots of fun :)

Better with a second gorebull in each so opponents have to attack a character or champ.

popisdead
10-12-2013, 17:51
Well better, worse and different. I see your point but with a Tuskgor Ch and Pumba Ch having 2 units gives me a solid battle line.

popisdead
13-12-2013, 17:18
Ran my Minotaur characters last night. Combo charging with Ghorgons is fun :D

Brother Haephestus
14-12-2013, 02:52
I think the army suffers from the same syndrome that 7th ed Ogres suffered - not enough choices when compared with other armies.

That being said, in our local meta our Beastman player is probably the most successful and has the best win ratio of us all. He plays balanced lists and doesnt shop for cheese and still seldom gives up more than 15-20% of his army points. There have been a couple of domino effect panic check fails though, so he's lost once or twice before ever getting his half of the first turn.

Malagor
14-12-2013, 06:23
Beastmen has plenty of choices, most of them just suck. :p
It's almost like the book was written by Cruddance.

Brother Haephestus
14-12-2013, 06:51
When I talk about choices I mean more than unit entries. For example, the dwarves have plenty of unit tntries, but the choices are mostly just stat variations amongst infantry blocks. OK suffered this in thier first book, but the 8th edition was very delicious, adding new wizard type, monster cav, monsters, war machines ... one of my personal favorite army books. Beasts need something like that ...

thesoundofmusica
14-12-2013, 10:37
I think the army suffers from the same syndrome that 7th ed Ogres suffered - not enough choices when compared with other armies.

That being said, in our local meta our Beastman player is probably the most successful and has the best win ratio of us all. He plays balanced lists and doesnt shop for cheese and still seldom gives up more than 15-20% of his army points. There have been a couple of domino effect panic check fails though, so he's lost once or twice before ever getting his half of the first turn.

This is too general a statement to really be of any use in evaluating the status of the Beastman army.
You all seem to be having a good time though which is really all that matters.
But in a competitive no comp tournament scene Beastmen have obvious weaknesses easily exploited.

Brother Haephestus
14-12-2013, 15:10
This is too general a statement to really be of any use in evaluating the status of the Beastman army.
You all seem to be having a good time though which is really all that matters.
But in a competitive no comp tournament scene Beastmen have obvious weaknesses easily exploited.

WoC has a ton of different units to bring to the fight. You can make several different types of forces and focus on different themes. Ogre kingdoms you can bring a few different themes to the fight that you couldnt in the old book. our unit options got really broad. Empire, Orcs and goblins, High Elves, Dark Elves, Lizard,en ... there's a ton of choices and themes to model your army after.

It seems to me that the Beastmen pool is rather shallow to drink from and will not truly satisfy your thirst.

decker_cky
14-12-2013, 18:33
This is too general a statement to really be of any use in evaluating the status of the Beastman army.
You all seem to be having a good time though which is really all that matters.
But in a competitive no comp tournament scene Beastmen have obvious weaknesses easily exploited.

Until cheap non-character flyers were given out like candy, I'd argue the only reason they didn't do well in tournaments was that they didn't have any easy matchups that gave them easy massacres (while on the flipside, they didn't have any particularly bad matchups either). With all the underpriced flying monsters out there now, there's some bad matchups hampering the army now. Ignoring the flyers, Beastmen would do much better in a straight-up W/D/L tournament than they do in tournaments that overemphasize the importance of massacres.

thesoundofmusica
15-12-2013, 10:13
Until cheap non-character flyers were given out like candy, I'd argue the only reason they didn't do well in tournaments was that they didn't have any easy matchups that gave them easy massacres (while on the flipside, they didn't have any particularly bad matchups either). With all the underpriced flying monsters out there now, there's some bad matchups hampering the army now. Ignoring the flyers, Beastmen would do much better in a straight-up W/D/L tournament than they do in tournaments that overemphasize the importance of massacres.

Agreed. This is pretty much what I said on page one. I also think the statement about scoring system is correct.

popisdead
20-12-2013, 16:38
Beastmen has plenty of choices, most of them just suck. :p
It's almost like the book was written by Cruddance.

Yeah that WoC book, being to top book in Fantasy, is pretty crappy. Guard sure were crappy on 5th Ed too. So bad no one allies with them for AV12 flyers.

Malagor
20-12-2013, 23:44
Cruddance books aren't crappy, his books do however contain a lack of proper choices. Tomb Kings generally only have 1 build that works, try to do something outside that and the army suffers. Tyranids suffer from the same problem, Sisters of Battle even more so.
It's a odd sense of shooting oneself in the foot if you try to spice things up in your list that is the overall problem with his books. Even IG has this problem.
His latest books WoC and Space Marines are armies that can survive him as they are hard to screw up.

Now I know that he didn't write it all himself. They had meetings, brainstorming etc but much like the crap that Ward took for his books, he put his name on the book so he takes the heat from it as he is the only reference there is.
And like Ward's legacy is horrible fluff and overpowered books that nearly break the game(but he is improving), Cruddance is on the opposite scale and he need prove himself alot before he can shed that legacy.

Methios
23-12-2013, 10:59
The TK book doesnt have ANY build that works.
On topic... i think beastmen are verry underrated. The Herdstone list is verry strong.

Malagor
23-12-2013, 15:24
Oh they do, they are quite powerful when a TK player do use the one list but some try not to use it since ala Tyranids, they find it boring to use the same thing over and over again so they try to spice it up and rarely works. Essentially it's all about magic, getting an insane amount of power dices that you simply can't dispell all of them and after 2-3 spells you will have no dispel dices left while the TK player still has more then half of his power dices remaining in which they will throw whatever spell they want and will be disgustingly effective doing so.
I got 4 armies and I still don't know how to deal with that list other then hoping I get lucky and they IF and kill their wizards.

RecklessAbandon
23-12-2013, 15:27
Doombull on a flying carpet. That's all I'm going to say.

IronBranch
09-01-2014, 13:27
To be "competitive" with beastmen do you need to go Doombull and "minobus" route? I started Beastmen because i like strong magic and awesome chaff, the hard hitters i just dont want to go for minotaurs; just something puts me off those units. Maybe i just dont like the idea of having a unit of tauren, I like my beastmen more goat than cow :D

Malagor
09-01-2014, 14:05
No, you don't need doombulls or minotaurs to be competitive.
A beastlord with beastigors is a excellent combo as well.

popisdead
09-01-2014, 19:12
If you want strong magic don't go with Minotaurs. They eat up points fast and will limit what you can get for magic.

Beastmen can do dual lvl 4 better than anyone (Herdstone, one on Death) and then have some good support for Magic missiles as well.

orionwoodking
14-01-2014, 08:36
Sorry @envy I dont agree with you about the monsters, you do have to remember that this book was not made in 8th ed and at the time of its release the costs of the monsters were not that far from competitive. You can really mash Beastmen magic though, that is my favorite thing about them and a strong advantage with the emphasis on magic in this edition!