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View Full Version : Question on the New Cauldron of Blood and Strength of Khaine rule



Blkc57
07-10-2013, 03:27
Ok so this game up in a test game of the new DE book today, the rule Murderous Prowess states that only the close combat attacks get the benefit, its very obvious and clear. The rule Strength of Khaine on the Cauldron, however, just states that models with the murderous prowess rule may reroll all of their missed attacks and it doesn't specify close combat. Someone tried to argue that technically by the wording the Cauldron can give rerolls to wound to repeater crossbow shots as the Darkshades have the rule murderous prowess. Now I tried to explain to him that was obviously wrong but I really couldn't point to anything in the wording to say otherwise. Is it rules as written that the Cauldron should be interpreted to give even shooting attacks from crossbows, harpoons, pistols, and bolt throwers reroll to wound?

The exact wording of Strength of Khaine is: " Friendly models with the Murderous prowess special rule in units within 6" of the Cauldron re-roll all failed To Wound rolls "

Don Zeko
07-10-2013, 03:31
Good catch. It sure looks like the rules as written would result in re-rolling wounds caused by ranged attacks, as well as impact hits and spells. I'm about 95% confident that this will be reversed in the first FAQ, but who knows how long that will take. In the meantime, I need to decide whether to be a sportsman or to get while the getting is good.

Wesser
07-10-2013, 06:12
Aye, relatedly we had the argument come up that since Cold One Chariots had the special rule MP then the re-roll to wound should apply to the cold ones as well since Strength of Khaine just refers to models with the special rule.

As for the specific case: Rules As Written.. hmm yes, Rerolls to wound. I'm afraid that even RAI don't help us here. Ward would be screwy enough to let it happen...

Does seem OP, dont it..

theunwantedbeing
07-10-2013, 10:40
It says all, so it's all.
So mounts, ranged attacks (shooting and magic), they all get it provided part of the model has the murderous prowess rule.

Clearly not the intention but untill it gets clarified, that's what the rules say.

Blkc57
07-10-2013, 19:36
Hmmm, so the question now is: do we house rule it right away like the Death Fisting Ogre shenanigans or is it something I am just overblowing and we can wait and see what the meta does ala BotWD?

RanaldLoec
07-10-2013, 20:09
With how it's written it's reroll to wound on all attacks if a model has murderous prowess.


I dislike it in fact I hate it but untill it's errata'd or faq'd we're stuck with it.

What is important to note is that the bolt thrower doesn't actually have the murderous prowess rule only the crew.

So your crew can reroll to wound in combat but not the bolt thrower when it shoots.

From reading and digesting the rules it has broken the trend of relatively balanced books in 8th ed.

It sits quite high on my I really hate that army book how do I beat it list.

Currently it's the only 8th edition book to make it onto that list, in fact it's the only book on that list.

I won't say I hate him but he's dropped a stinker.

Blkc57
07-10-2013, 20:33
Technically Renald, warmachine crews are not separate models they share a split profile with the warmachine itself and the whole thing is considered one model. There is no rule like cavalry that states that the crew rules don't overlap onto the whole model. And the Strength of Khaine merely states that the model itself posses the Murderous prowess rule. By the rules as written the model has the murderous prowess rule and can reroll wounds. Ridiculous but it is what it is and I will gladly punch anyone in the snoze that tries to use the Cauldron this way.

Mr_Rose
07-10-2013, 20:43
Or you could recall that the rules do specifically refer to crew models and further that the army book specifically differentiates between the special rules that are given to the crew and to the bolt thrower, which serves no purpose whatsoever if they are "considered one model."

Blkc57
07-10-2013, 20:49
They are considered one model Rose, read page 108 of the BRB. The crewmen models are just wound markers. The model itself uses split profile rules.

Mr_Rose
07-10-2013, 20:55
In the rulebook, crew are referred to as models, there is no direct statement that the war machine is one model with the crew, nor is there a referral to the equivalent rule(s) for cavalry and chariots. Your statement continues to go unsupported.

Blkc57
07-10-2013, 21:10
Really bro? lets not be silly


A warmachine unit comprises the machine itself, plus the crew. As the crew really aren't a combat unit, we ignore them for most gaming purposes, treating the warmachine itself as the extent of the unit....The Crew are only used to indicate the remaining number of wounds and the number of attacks the warmachine can make in close combat.

Split profile rules on that same page.

Mr_Rose
07-10-2013, 21:28
The split profile rule that conspicuously fails to mention treating them as one model (where cavalry and chariots do, explicitly), plus carefully editing out the reference to crew as models? Really now?

Blkc57
07-10-2013, 21:45
The split profile rule that conspicuously fails to mention treating them as one model (where cavalry and chariots do, explicitly), plus carefully editing out the reference to crew as models? Really now?

What are you talking about man? We seem to be going around in circles. I showed you where it states that you ignore the crew models as they are only considered wound tokens. You keep going "BUT THEY ARE MODELS!" when it specifically says to ignore them and use a split profile. You ask for the rule I tell you the page, you deny the rule is there I quote it to you, now you claim the quote is wrong? You seem to be completely unreasonable on this. They share a split profile because by the rules the crew are not technically "there". They don't exist, they are only counters and wound markers for gaming purposes.

RanaldLoec
07-10-2013, 22:19
In the rulebook, crew are referred to as models, there is no direct statement that the war machine is one model with the crew, nor is there a referral to the equivalent rule(s) for cavalry and chariots. Your statement continues to go unsupported.

This

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Blkc57
07-10-2013, 22:25
Ranald its in the box where you ignore the crew models on that same page.

Lord Zarkov
07-10-2013, 22:37
Ranald its in the box where you ignore the crew models on that same page.

If Murderous Prowess applies only to the crew and not the Bolt Thrower and we're ignoring the crew then why is the Bolt Thrower supposed to be getting re-rolls again? ;)

@ Blkc57: The War Machine is counted as the extent of the unit not the model, the crew may be glorified wound markers for most purposes, but they are still models in their own right - just models that are usually ignored.

Mr_Rose
07-10-2013, 22:45
What are you talking about man?
The rules that are written in the English rulebook, as modified by relevant errata, and nothing else.

We seem to be going around in circles. I showed you where it states that you ignore the crew models as they are only considered wound tokens.
Which is also the bit that tells you they are models. Ignoring this and eliding it from your quotes does not make it go away.

You keep going "BUT THEY ARE MODELS!" when it specifically says to ignore them and use a split profile.
You still have not shown where it says that having a split profile makes them all one model and appear determined to ignore the fact that other split profile units have this explicitly stated in a manner which does not appear in the war machine entry.

You ask for the rule I tell you the page, you deny the rule is there I quote it to you, now you claim the quote is wrong?
You are the one that elided the sentence that (inconveniently for your argument, though I am sure this is simply coincidence) refers to the crew models as models, not I.

You seem to be completely unreasonable on this.
You are, of course, entitled to your opinion. I, naturally, cannot reasonably comment on how I appear to others, except to hope that your view is in the minority.

They share a split profile because by the rules the crew are not technically "there". They don't exist, they are only counters and wound markers for gaming purposes.
Very well, we shall assume the crew are part of the war machine model, though this is still not proven, or even supported as far as I can see:
The rules tell you to remove a "crew model" when the war machine receives a wound. Which model do you then remove if the crew are also the war machine and indistinguishable from it?
Per your argument, it ought to be the entire war machine/crew single model as it is both the machine and the crew.
Do you now wish to distinguish between the war machine and crew models?
You cannot if you wish to also remain consistent with your own argument.

Blkc57
07-10-2013, 22:52
If Murderous Prowess applies only to the crew and not the Bolt Thrower and we're ignoring the crew then why is the Bolt Thrower supposed to be getting re-rolls again? ;)

@ Blkc57: The War Machine is counted as the extent of the unit not the model, the crew may be glorified wound markers for most purposes, but they are still models in their own right - just models that are usually ignored.

Because the crews rules are part of the warmachine's rules since they share a split profile Zarkov.

Blkc57
07-10-2013, 23:04
Very well, we shall assume the crew are part of the war machine model, though this is still not proven, or even supported as far as I can see:
The rules tell you to remove a "crew model" when the war machine receives a wound. Which model do you then remove if the crew are also the war machine and indistinguishable from it?
Per your argument, it ought to be the entire war machine/crew single model as it is both the machine and the crew.
Do you now wish to distinguish between the war machine and crew models?
You cannot if you wish to also remain consistent with your own argument.

Or, you can simply not place crew models Rose. Use markers like a dice or little tokens like we do with every other multi-wound model in warhammer. The total wounds of the warmachine are its crew when it goes down on the model, you simply remove one attack. Like I said in another thread many people do not play with the crewmen since they are no longer important and keep track of the wounds via some other method ( entirely legitimate) all you need to do to do this is realise that the rules for the crew are encapsulated within the split profile.

The reason the Warmachines don't need the same wording as cav on page 82 is that we are told to just go ahead and ignore the crew models on the same page. You just fold up the crew rules into the warmachine profile like a split profile does for every other model out there. Frankly its a moot point as they will eventually change this stupid Strength of Khaine undoubtedly in any FAQ, and I will be petitioning that it only apply in close combat in my area. It is important though that you realize that the crew models have to be ignored when playing the game except as a simple wound counter ( in other words don't be trying to measure to them for spell effects or using them to say that a model has to keep 1 inch away from them).

Lord Zarkov
07-10-2013, 23:09
If there are no crew models then the War Machine is removed, the rulebook is quite clear on that one.

Mr_Rose
07-10-2013, 23:34
Or, you can simply not place crew models Rose. Use markers like a dice or little tokens like we do with every other multi-wound model in warhammer. The total wounds of the warmachine are its crew when it goes down on the model, you simply remove one attack. Like I said in another thread many people do not play with the crewmen since they are no longer important and keep track of the wounds via some other method ( entirely legitimate) all you need to do to do this is realise that the rules for the crew are encapsulated within the split profile.
When you asked what I was talking about, I naturally assumed you wanted to know. I now see that was a mistake, yet I shall persevere: when I said "and nothing else" I actually meant it. I do not care what I "could" do, or what "many people do". For the purposes of this argument I care about what the rules tell us to do. Please do not bring up such irrelevancies again.



The reason the Warmachines don't need the same wording as cav on page 82 is that we are told to just go ahead and ignore the crew models on the same page. You just fold up the crew rules into the warmachine profile like a split profile does for every other model out there.
You are told that the crew models may be moved around like counters and should be ignored for most purposes, but you are not told that being like counters in some ways makes them not models any more, nor are you told to ignore them for all purposes.
Nothing even close to the second sentence in the quote above exists anywhere in the rulebook that I can find, so I shall ask you again: where is this universal rule governing split profiles? The one that your argument depends from? I put it to you that it does not exist and beg you to prove me wrong. A page reference would be nice, since we know it's not on p.108.

Blkc57
07-10-2013, 23:35
Or Zarkov, you can understand what the crewmen are (nothing but counters) and do something else to keep track of wounds. Me? I put a little dice down next to my empire cannon to remember how many wounds it has left. I don't have to "remove my cannon" because I don't play with crewmen, my opponent always understands the purpose of the dice and everything is good.

If guy builds a really awesome diorama of a cannon and its crew, and the crew are all glued down onto a nice scenic base, are you really going to demand that your opponent get down with a hobby knife and scrape those crewmen off when he takes a wound?

Blkc57
07-10-2013, 23:55
When you asked what I was talking about, I naturally assumed you wanted to know. I now see that was a mistake, yet I shall persevere: when I said "and nothing else" I actually meant it. I do not care what I "could" do, or what "many people do". For the purposes of this argument I care about what the rules tell us to do. Please do not bring up such irrelevancies again.

Irrelevancies? You were claiming that without crew models a warmachine had to be destroyed, I was saying that crew models since they are just wound counters by the rules in the book, can simply be replaced with other wound counters. I was trying to answer your point by saying it was a simple strawman argument. That because Matt Ward told you to remove a crewmen model everytime you took a wound, you have to place crewmen models. Obviously you know that is ridiculous and not the actual intent of that rule, that the crewmen are just markers, that you can use or find something else to represent them.

My point here is that the crewmen looking over their rules are useless for gaming, they can be simply left out. You can use the split profile of the single model warmachine and combine the crew into it.



are told that the crew models may be moved around like counters and should be ignored for most purposes, but you are not told that being like counters in some ways makes them not models any more, nor are you told to ignore them for all purposes.
Nothing even close to the second sentence in the quote above exists anywhere in the rulebook that I can find, so I shall ask you again: where is this universal rule governing split profiles? The one that your argument depends from? I put it to you that it does not exist and beg you to prove me wrong. A page reference would be nice, since we know it's not on p.108.

For what purpose, Rose, besides using them as a counter would the models ever be used for in a game? The reason I don't need Matt Ward to tell me in the BRB to ignore them for all purposes is that there are really no other purposes they could be possibly useful for, if they are ignored for every other gaming purpose out there that matters.

Blkc57
08-10-2013, 00:12
At this point I'm just gonna leave this thread, my original point was made that the Strength of Khaine is poorly written to allow people to abuse it with things that should never be allowed to reroll wounds, like a massive number of repeater crossbow shots or a powered up Doomfire bolt (4d6 strength 4 hits that reroll to wound?) or Greater Fireball. I wanted to point out that people should probably be aware of it since they can head it off with their local clubs or tournaments and there is no guarantee that GW will be timely enough with their FAQs.

I didn't want to turn my thread into a discussion of warmachines (which I play in Empire).

Mr_Rose
08-10-2013, 00:18
Again, I care not for "could" as it is irrelevant to a rules discussion.
One equally "could" substitute coins or small pieces of cardboard for ones entire army, and I've seen it done. That does not, however, make it acceptable to predicate a rules argument on a situation that the rules do not support. There are an unlimited number of things one "could" do with the rules of Warhammer, including ignore them entirely, but unless we can agree to rules discussions being based on what the rules say, there's no point in continuing this.

Flash Felix
08-10-2013, 03:01
As the crew aren't really a combat unit, per se, we ignore them for most gaming purposes, treating the war machine itself as the extent of the unit. When the war machine suffers a wound, remove a crew model



I've highlighted the important bit; most gaming purposes. It's pretty clear in the Repeater Bolt Thrower unit description that the crew and the RBT have seperate rules; they're not interchangealbe or combined. It's also clear that they are seperate models.

Players may choose to leave the crew models off the board or to include them on the same base, but those are for aesthetic or practical reasons, not because they're stipulated in the rules.

Therefore, it's pretty clear to me that while the RBT crew can reroll all to wound rolls, the RBT itself cannot, as the model lacks the Murderous Prowess rule.

Sadly this still leaves Sorceresses and Repeater Crossbows to abuse what looks like a loophole, but we can only hope that this is closed by a GW FAQ sometime in the next decade. Or it might be confirmed, in which case we just get on with life.

AUN'SHI
08-10-2013, 13:53
I've highlighted the important bit; most gaming purposes. It's pretty clear in the Repeater Bolt Thrower unit description that the crew and the RBT have seperate rules; they're not interchangealbe or combined. It's also clear that they are seperate models.

Players may choose to leave the crew models off the board or to include them on the same base, but those are for aesthetic or practical reasons, not because they're stipulated in the rules.

Therefore, it's pretty clear to me that while the RBT crew can reroll all to wound rolls, the RBT itself cannot, as the model lacks the Murderous Prowess rule.

Sadly this still leaves Sorceresses and Repeater Crossbows to abuse what looks like a loophole, but we can only hope that this is closed by a GW FAQ sometime in the next decade. Or it might be confirmed, in which case we just get on with life.

but is the crew not the ones shooting the bolt thrower? I mean it dosent shoot on its own. So if its the point where the bolt thrower does not have the MP rule but the crew does have the MP rule and its the crew that shoot the bolt thrower no? I think this can go both ways.

Flash Felix
08-10-2013, 19:27
but is the crew not the ones shooting the bolt thrower? I mean it dosent shoot on its own. So if its the point where the bolt thrower does not have the MP rule but the crew does have the MP rule and its the crew that shoot the bolt thrower no? I think this can go both ways.

The crew might be shooting it, but they're not the ones rolling to wound; the Bolt Thrower is. Otherwise the attack would be two S3 attacks, neither of which are armour piercing or are ignore armour with multiple-wound (d3).

It's bad enough that the way this rule is written benefits magic missiles and repeater crossbows. At least it doesn't have to extend to RBTs.

warplock
09-10-2013, 08:36
The crew might be shooting it, but they're not the ones rolling to wound; the Bolt Thrower is. Otherwise the attack would be two S3 attacks, neither of which are armour piercing or are ignore armour with multiple-wound (d3).

It's bad enough that the way this rule is written benefits magic missiles and repeater crossbows. At least it doesn't have to extend to RBTs.

Hand weapons do not have the MP rule, so can Elves using hand weapons in combat not benefit from SoK?

Mr_Rose
09-10-2013, 09:43
Hand weapons do not have the MP rule, so can Elves using hand weapons in combat not benefit from SoK?

Hand weapons are not separate models. This strawman has already been burned.

cptcosmic
09-10-2013, 09:55
I've highlighted the important bit; most gaming purposes. It's pretty clear in the Repeater Bolt Thrower unit description that the crew and the RBT have seperate rules; they're not interchangealbe or combined. It's also clear that they are seperate models.

-first of all this.

-second Reaper Bolt Thrower army list entry, because this is what it says

Special Rules (Crew)
Always Strike First
Hatred (High Elves)
Murderous Prowess

Special Rules (Reaper Bolt Thrower)
Repeater Bolt Thrower

-and third
In the rulebook, crew are referred to as models and warmachines split profile are not treated as single models by RAW (unlike cavarly)

-and my last point. if you by RAW ignore the crew then the warmachine also cannot benefit from MP.

Rake
10-10-2013, 10:17
Its clear a bolt thrower does not reroll to wound. There is nothing in the books that refers to the warmachine as a single model.

The problem is re-rolling to wound with your 2 units of 20 repeater crossbowmen with the sorceress with dark or death attached. Not the RBTs...

dms505
04-04-2014, 14:13
Also, until this is changed would this mean the impact hits from the cauldron itself can re-roll wounds since the whole model has MD?

Oh I think the nastiest thing to use this on would be something like a lvl 4 with bladewind or something else that hits every model in a unit, 6 dice it and get the bonus hits from the lore attribute and roll 2-3 d6 worth of low S hits that have a better chance of wounds as well.

While I doubt this is meant to be used this way I see how this being a giant magical artifact could allow it to boost non combat abilities because it's a magical effect. They would just use the idea that the models have MP as a rule to show that only the "chosen" have this boost.