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Jocat
08-10-2013, 19:01
Does this mean every unit from the AB: High Elves, or just High Elves? And if so, what is classified as High Elves?

The BRB pg.71 mentions Hatred:
"...a model will only Hate a specific foe (rather than everyone). Where this is the case, the type of foe will be expressed in the special rule, for example Hatred (Dwarfs)."

Because the wording is specific foe, I'm thinking it applies to everyone in the army book. However, in the High Elves book, Cloak of Beards reads: "...models from Warhammer: Dwarfs..". That that obviously affects everyone from the army book.

mostlyharmless
08-10-2013, 19:06
If it's a high elf, and I'm a dark elf, I hate it. If it's a beastie, like articuno, moltres, dratini, dragonair, and dragonite, and I'm a dark elf, I don't hate it.

Jocat
08-10-2013, 19:10
If it's a high elf, and I'm a dark elf, I hate it. If it's a beastie, like articuno, moltres, dratini, dragonair, and dragonite, and I'm a dark elf, I don't hate it.

But is High Elves referring to the humanoid or the faction? For example, Hatred: Space Marines, does it affect a Space Marine Rhino?

jeffzcubfan
08-10-2013, 19:12
It hates everything that falls into the High Elves AB, IMHO

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I777 using Tapatalk 2

mostlyharmless
08-10-2013, 19:27
I think my analogy is lost on you. The monsters in the high elf book. Are they elves? Do they have ASF and Martial Prowess? Do they benefit from the special rules associated with High Elves? No? Then they're not high elves, and therefore I do not hate them.

Flash Felix
08-10-2013, 20:11
It comes down to the wording; sorry, I don't have the book so someone will have to check.

If it says that the model hates all units from the Warhammer Armies: High Elves army book, then it hates Phoenixes, Eagles and every other thing in the book.

If it says that the model hates High Elves, then it only hates models that demonstrably contain High Elves. So it will have hatred against a Phoenix with an Anointed on it, but not against one that doesn't.

If this sounds stupid, remember that Dwarves hate Greenskins, but not everything in the Orcs & Goblins Army Book. So Trolls and Squigs aren't hated. Some argue that Dwarves don't get Hatred versus Squigherds, because they're not in base contact with the Goblin herders.....

Jocat
08-10-2013, 20:36
Wording is exactly: Hatred (High Elves).


I think my analogy is lost on you. The monsters in the high elf book. Are they elves? Do they have ASF and Martial Prowess? Do they benefit from the special rules associated with High Elves? No? Then they're not high elves, and therefore I do not hate them.

Your analogy was clear, it just wasn't a clear enough answer for me.

We don't know if it's referring to the race, or the faction, once again. Look at 40K: Preferred Enemy: Eldar. Are you going to argue that Falcons and Avatars are not considered Eldar?

Flash Felix
08-10-2013, 20:43
Wording is exactly: Hatred (High Elves).


In that case, I'd play it that Dark Elves don't hate Phoenixes and Eagles. Or at least, not enough to get rerolls (though the ASF will help with that anyway, in some cases)

Jocat
08-10-2013, 20:48
New information has entered the fray:
Designer's Note:
Some rules in this book provide Preferred Enemy or Hatred (Space Marines). The category "Space Marines" comprises all units taken from the following codexes: Space Marines, Black Templars, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Grey Knights, and Space Wolves.

Pg. 28 CSM

Azmodian
08-10-2013, 21:14
This is not 40k.. Please stop referring to it.

If you hate (*race) you get the rule.

If you hate (dragons) you would hate dragons
If you hate (Dwarfs) you will hate dwarfs...

Not a hard concept.

Lord Zarkov
08-10-2013, 21:26
I think using 40K as a comparison isn't so valid as (with a few exceptions) everything in the armybook is part of that race, so in C:SM you have Space Marines and you have vehicles driven by Space Marines. In C:Eldar you have Eldar; vehicles driven by Eldar; constructs powered by the souls of Eldar; and a statue of an Eldar God, awakened by the souls of Eldar.

In comparison in WA:HE you have High Elves, but you also have Eagles and Pheonixes which are not High Elves and not always ridden by High Elves. In WA:O&G you have Orcs and Goblins (which are greenskins), but also Trolls, Giants, etc which are not.

The rule could have easily have been written as "hates everything from WA:HE", but it wasn't, it was Hatred (High Elves) - if an attack doesn't have the potential to kill an actual elf then it shouldn't get the re-roll. I think the Dwarven hatred of Greenskins is the precedent on this one.

Azmodian
08-10-2013, 22:14
If hatred worked as some believe (ie the whole army book) then daemon players would hate all daemons because they are all in the same book.
The rule has been around this entire edition, I am dumbfounded this is even a question.

theunwantedbeing
08-10-2013, 22:21
The Night Goblin rule "Hatred(Dwarfs)" is worded exactly the same way.
The only difference being that nothing in the dwarf army could be considered as not a dwarf.
The Special Character Snagla Grobspit also has "Hatred(Empire)" which is clearly anything in the empire army rather than a specific foe as there is no "Empire" unit anywhere(yet).

The Tomb King Special Character gets Hatred(Vampire Counts) again clearly the entire army as the Vampire Count is now a Vampire Lord.

High Elf Shadow Warriors have Hatred (Dark Elves), which has yet to be clarified.
Eltharion the Grim has Hatred (Orcs & Goblins), so that would mean the entire army...or is it just Orcs & goblins? what about Snotlings or Trolls?

I'de say it's the entire army they hate personally.
But we shall see if the FAQ resolves it.



If hatred worked as some believe (ie the whole army book) then daemon players would hate all daemons because they are all in the same book.
The rule has been around this entire edition, I am dumbfounded this is even a question.

They hate specific types of daemon, not the entire army as a whole (which would be Daemons of Chaos, although just Daemons would work and would handily include Daemon princes from the Warriors of Chaos book).
The rule for Slaanesh daemons for example is "Hatred(Daemons of Khorne)"

No need to be dumbfounded now :)

Jocat
08-10-2013, 22:28
This is not 40k.. Please stop referring to it.

If you hate (*race) you get the rule.

If you hate (dragons) you would hate dragons
If you hate (Dwarfs) you will hate dwarfs...

Not a hard concept.

You do realize that the same design team writes rules for both 40K and Fantasy right?

Can you link me a better source that clarifies this exact situation?

I gave you a quote from Phil Kelly, senior designer from Games Workshop, specifically clarifying what Hatred X means. Do you have something better?

Knifeparty
08-10-2013, 22:50
Well as far as I know it's always been FAQ'd to be hatred: the entire book in question.

Either way, I'm hating the **** out of those god damned Frost Phoenix's until an FAQ says otherwise.

bigbiggles
08-10-2013, 23:52
Its hatred of all elves in the high elf book. Not eagles or phoenix

ExquisiteMonkey
09-10-2013, 01:51
Doesn't it come down to the definition in the BRB and how it defines whatever is in the brackets is subject to hatred, not the rule in the Army Book?

Edit; I'm in the camp that its everything from the High Elves book, as High Elves is in the bracket.

Azmodian
10-10-2013, 23:08
[QUOTE= They hate specific types of daemon, not the entire army as a whole (which would be Daemons of Chaos, although just Daemons would work and would handily include Daemon princes from the Warriors of Chaos book).
The rule for Slaanesh daemons for example is "Hatred(Daemons of Khorne)"

No need to be dumbfounded now :)[/QUOTE]

I get that. I was making a jest at the fact people are bringing in 40k rules for fantasy... Just gets annoying when they are not the same game system.

Persufflation
13-10-2013, 15:15
I wasn't aware that 'elves' was a part of their rules???...I know this caused confusion with some items in tammurkhan as some items are chaos dwarf only but they listed chaos dwarf under troop type in a subheading even though some stuff that fluff wise was technically chaos dwarf didn't have this rule...

Rake
14-10-2013, 12:09
It is ambiguous. You will have to agree before a battle or roll off for it. The arguments are valid enough on both sides that you can't come down like a 10 ton hammer.

Dark Side Duke
14-10-2013, 14:59
There's no unit in the book call "High Elves". It would have to be universal hatred to everything in the book. However stupid it sounds.

melonmelon
15-10-2013, 18:17
There's no unit in the book call "High Elves". It would have to be universal hatred to everything in the book. However stupid it sounds.

The only "High Elves" we can find is... Warhammer: High Elves(Army Book). So I assume that, everything inside that Army Book are included.

ArtificerArmour
16-10-2013, 21:35
Why wouldn't dark elves hate eagles or pheonix - the friend of my enemy is my enemy

Ero-Senin
22-10-2013, 14:15
As Dark Side Duke has said there is no unit type or unit called High Elves like there is no unit called Empire. Im afraid this means it is the entire army.

FatTrucker
22-10-2013, 15:23
As far as I'm aware its factional rather than racial.

So hatred 'High Elves' would be anything in the High Elf book fighting in a High Elf army in the same way that Hatred 'Empire' would be anything in the Empire book fighting in an Empire army.
The idea that something with hates 'Vampire Counts' would only have hatred of an actual Vampire Count is ridiculous.

Essentially its a rule for a whole army type not a racial sub type within an army.

The fact that some army types happen to be named for their race is neither here nor there.

bigbiggles
26-10-2013, 18:40
There are no hates: vampire counts because that's just hatred: undead.

theunwantedbeing
26-10-2013, 19:17
There are no hates: vampire counts because that's just hatred: undead.

Queen Khalida, Tomb Kings special character.
She has hatred (Vampire Counts).

I quoted it earlier in the thread.

Sexiest_hero
26-10-2013, 20:23
Queen Khalida hates when the vampire from sesame street counts.

Spiney Norman
27-10-2013, 00:30
I can't find anything in the rulebook or DE book that suggests they hate the entire army, in the BRB it notes a 'specific type of foe', and the example given is hatred (dwarfs), it doesn't say that that reference is about an army book, in fact the title of the book is not mentioned at all (as it has been in previous editions).

Its pretty clear what is and what isn't a high elf so I would suggest that DE hate everything that is a high elf, i.e not Phoenixes, eagles etc.

Its comparable that Goblins fear elves, that does not mean they fear great eagles that happen to be in the same army as elves.

Warhammerrox
27-10-2013, 02:19
I'm an Orc player and as far as I'm concerned Hatred works against everything in the target army book. Example, Dwarfs Hate Greenskins, so by logical default the Dwarfs would hate the things that are fighting with me against them. Things like Trolls and Giants who are in it to get something out of it, like say, eating some Dwarfs, or like Squigs who have been pressed into service against Dwarfs but are happy to go along with it for the destruction.

The Dwarfs would not differentiate against the components of the Orc force as it would make no sense to. The Dwarfs aren't going to hate some Orcs fighting them in combat but be completely ambivalent to the Trolls that have just killed a cannon crew and some Troll is stood there chewing on some guys arm.. The Dwarfs aren't going to say I don't hate that Troll who just scoffed my mate coz he's not green! They will hate the warriors of the target army and they will equally hate the entities that fight alongside them.

Loriel
27-10-2013, 07:00
I'm an Orc player and as far as I'm concerned Hatred works against everything in the target army book. Example, Dwarfs Hate Greenskins, so by logical default the Dwarfs would hate the things that are fighting with me against them. Things like Trolls and Giants who are in it to get something out of it, like say, eating some Dwarfs, or like Squigs who have been pressed into service against Dwarfs but are happy to go along with it for the destruction.

The Dwarfs would not differentiate against the components of the Orc force as it would make no sense to. The Dwarfs aren't going to hate some Orcs fighting them in combat but be completely ambivalent to the Trolls that have just killed a cannon crew and some Troll is stood there chewing on some guys arm.. The Dwarfs aren't going to say I don't hate that Troll who just scoffed my mate coz he's not green! They will hate the warriors of the target army and they will equally hate the entities that fight alongside them.

Dwarf hatred vs. hatred (High Elves , vampire counts , etc) isn't equivalent in rule perspective for the following reason.

Ancestral Grudge, which is the hatred rule in Dwarf armybook page 28, actually defines this hatred more accurately which includes gnoblars, hobgoblins, orcs etc "in fact all greenskins of any description". There is no FAQ for this rule. Too bad new rules haven't been opened up like that.

Your interpret is very fluffy on the matter, but that would actually work against any opponent that would kills your mates, why an earth wouldn't you hate your opponent for killing comrades. I like to think that Hatred as described in warhammer universe is something that is more deeper than just regular feeling of anger from "normal" circumstances.

Coldblood666
27-10-2013, 07:53
Hatred (High Elves) refers to the book High Elves. Anything in the book

Spiney Norman
27-10-2013, 08:24
Hatred (High Elves) refers to the book High Elves. Anything in the book

Can you support that with a quote, or is it just an opinion?

In the case of Dwarf hatred of Greenskins it is quite explicitly a racial thing, it works against gnoblars etc that are not part of the O&G book, and it does not work against trolls or giants that are (because they are not greenskins).

I don't really see any precedent anywhere on the game for saying that dark elves get hatred against non-elf models from the high elf book just because they are from the high elf book.

In past editions hatred did, in some cases, key into specific army books, night goblins hated all models from warhammer armies: dwarfs for example, but that wording was deliberately dropped this edition in favour of hatred (dwarfs), presumably to make the whole thing more logical. Its not like every dark elf is going to carry a copy of warhammer armies: high elves with him to check if he should be hating the monster he comes up against.

It is, of course, a whole other discussion as to whether night goblins hate chaos dwarfs or not...

Also you seem to have missed my example above, do my common goblins fear great eagles on the basis that they are part of the warhammer armies: high elves book?

BramGaunt
27-10-2013, 12:31
Also you seem to have missed my example above, do my common goblins fear great eagles on the basis that they are part of the warhammer armies: high elves book?

Though I am with you one could argue that the regular Goblin is afraid of anything bigger than a running leaf, and especially great birds.

Persufflation
27-10-2013, 15:36
The problem lies in that nothing in the high elf book is defined as being a 'high elf' by rules...if that is the criteria it would need to be in the rules as a sub-set clarification and not just the unit name...to interpret it that way would mean that hatred high elves doesn't do anything...if they had wanted to define it as only 'proper elves' they should have stated something along the lines of 'any unit with the speed of asuryan special rule' as only proper elves but not monsters have that (if my memory serves correctly...the book is presently on loan to a friend)...there is an army 'high elves' which you could hate and in other rmy books simply putting the name of the army would imply that you have hatred 'anything in the book'...therefore I believe it is intended to be played as anything in the book...this allows for the question to be resolved by using things which actually exist in the rules where any other interpretation has to use something defined outside the rules by the fluff

Tae
27-10-2013, 17:35
Can you support that with a quote, or is it just an opinion?

In the case of Dwarf hatred of Greenskins it is quite explicitly a racial thing, it works against gnoblars etc that are not part of the O&G book, and it does not work against trolls or giants that are (because they are not greenskins).

I don't really see any precedent anywhere on the game for saying that dark elves get hatred against non-elf models from the high elf book just because they are from the high elf book.

In past editions hatred did, in some cases, key into specific army books, night goblins hated all models from warhammer armies: dwarfs for example, but that wording was deliberately dropped this edition in favour of hatred (dwarfs), presumably to make the whole thing more logical. Its not like every dark elf is going to carry a copy of warhammer armies: high elves with him to check if he should be hating the monster he comes up against.

It is, of course, a whole other discussion as to whether night goblins hate chaos dwarfs or not...

Also you seem to have missed my example above, do my common goblins fear great eagles on the basis that they are part of the warhammer armies: high elves book?

If Hatred ( X ) refers to individual models rather than the entire book, please explain which models Snagla Grobspit hates with his Hatred (Empire) rule.

Dark Side Duke
28-10-2013, 11:33
Can you support that with a quote, or is it just an opinion?

In the case of Dwarf hatred of Greenskins it is quite explicitly a racial thing, it works against gnoblars etc that are not part of the O&G book, and it does not work against trolls or giants that are (because they are not greenskins).

I don't really see any precedent anywhere on the game for saying that dark elves get hatred against non-elf models from the high elf book just because they are from the high elf book.

In past editions hatred did, in some cases, key into specific army books, night goblins hated all models from warhammer armies: dwarfs for example, but that wording was deliberately dropped this edition in favour of hatred (dwarfs), presumably to make the whole thing more logical. Its not like every dark elf is going to carry a copy of warhammer armies: high elves with him to check if he should be hating the monster he comes up against.

It is, of course, a whole other discussion as to whether night goblins hate chaos dwarfs or not...

Also you seem to have missed my example above, do my common goblins fear great eagles on the basis that they are part of the warhammer armies: high elves book?

Again, I'll reiterated. There is nothing in the High Elf book, other that the Army Book: High Elves, that has the high elf title or special rule. Referring to the entire book. Hatred: Greenskins is meant to transcend just one army book as there are more than one that uses goblins. Same thing with hatred: undead. Hatred: dwarves is also referring to the entire book as "dwarf warriors" is not the same thing as just plain dwarves.

Its really quite funny that in an age where GW is trying to reduce the complication of all their game systems that people are looking for more and more ways to make it complicated.

Spiney Norman
29-10-2013, 00:32
Again, I'll reiterated. There is nothing in the High Elf book, other that the Army Book: High Elves, that has the high elf title or special rule. Referring to the entire book. Hatred: Greenskins is meant to transcend just one army book as there are more than one that uses goblins. Same thing with hatred: undead. Hatred: dwarves is also referring to the entire book as "dwarf warriors" is not the same thing as just plain dwarves.

Its really quite funny that in an age where GW is trying to reduce the complication of all their game systems that people are looking for more and more ways to make it complicated.

So my goblins fear great eagles?

Blkc57
29-10-2013, 03:34
So my goblins fear great eagles?

In defense of your Gobbos, I'd be pretty darn scared if an eagle the size of a Buick was trying to peck at me. Just saying :)

Dark Side Duke
29-10-2013, 12:39
So my goblins fear great eagles?

Flirting with a pretty fine line there. RAW, there are no units defined specifically as elves. Obviously the rule was meant to encompass elves from all three books. Lazy writing once again.

bigbiggles
29-10-2013, 19:25
And no, gobbos don't rules wise fear eagles. Although I'm always surprised that eagles don't cause fear themselves.

Persufflation
29-10-2013, 22:25
it seems that based on this discussion that goblins should indeed fear eagles...if it has been played in a different way previously due to a misinterpretation of the rules as presented does not mean that it should continue to be played in this manner...this should be clarified by GW in an FAQ to make it obvious to the casual observer...but I'm not gonna hold my breath as there still is no FAQ for high elves which has been out over 6 months now...

bigbiggles
30-10-2013, 02:28
I think a casual observer would interpret "fears elves" to mean fear of the humanoid elf models. Not everything in all 3 elf armies

Persufflation
30-10-2013, 13:07
this would work if things were defined by a racial trait ie elf, human, greenskin, etc. in their profile...as it is you have for example: dreadspears 'infantry'; silverhelms 'cavalry'; etc...the only thing to indicate that they are elves at all is the army book they come from...you are saying that we should ignore the only written evidence of what defines 'elves' and make visual judgement calls based on how a model looks or referances in the fluff?

To make it clear to the casual observer: GW should have a few lines in the BRB/an FAQ defining how to handle this...ie human sized models from an army book vs everything?

Until this happens it seems the most logical thing to do is to follow whatever we have in writing to come to a conclusion...if you or your opponent wish to play it differently then by all means roll it off or make a house rule (to follow the most important rule: Have fun!) but the discussion pertains to how this should be played in a general sense

Spiney Norman
31-10-2013, 18:24
I think a casual observer would interpret "fears elves" to mean fear of the humanoid elf models. Not everything in all 3 elf armies

In which case why should hatred work differently to fear in this case?

It seems that the basis of the argument for DE hating non-elf units in the high elf book is that nothing in the book is specifically noted as being a "High elf", but by the same token nothing in any of the three elf books is specifically noted as being an "elf" from a rules perspective either. From that interpretation there is no "elf" army book either, which could lead me to conclude that common goblins don't in fact fear anything that doesn't have the fear (or terror) rule...

In both cases I think its pretty clear what was intended, its fairly easy to figure out for yourself what is an "elf", or a "high elf" for the purposes of either rule (and great eagles are neither). The problem with questions like this is that GW designers seem to assume some basic common sense on the part of the gamer, which some people sadly elect to leave behind in pursuit of an ingame advantage.

Persufflation
31-10-2013, 22:54
I would say that fear 'elves' refers to anything in the 3 'elves' books (High, Dark, Wood)...

the basis for this discussion is that hatred 'high elves' is not clear...I don't feel it is 'beardy' to try and claim it refers to units in the army book of the same name rather than an unspecified subset of troops found within...

The real problem to me lies with using the terms common sense, rules and GW in the same sentence...if things which are chaos dwarfs by fluff and description are not considered chaos dwarfs in the tammurkhan book (bull centaurs)...if they admit in an FAQ that they feel wizards should not have access to magic armor but 'officially' can due to a loophole in the writing (Ogres)...then how can we the player divine anything based on 'GW's intent'?

CrystalSphere
01-11-2013, 00:40
There are actually 2 different rules at work here, even if the effects of them are similar

- Specific Army Rule from O&G Armybook, p. 33, "Fear Elves": the description makes clear it refers to elves in the biological race, and not to an army
- Main Rulebook Rule, Fear: explains how fear works, and when and how units must test for fear
=> this is why neither gnoblars or hobgoblins fear elves, because it is a specific rule of the O&G armybook

- Specific Army Rule from Dwarf Armybook, p.28 "Ancestral Grudge": this rule causes the dwarves to hate all greenskins, as it is specified on the description, no matter what kind they are.
- Main Rulebook Rule, Hatred: explains how hatred works, and also specifies that if a certain enemy is between parenthesis, then it only affect that enemy. The rule is always used to refer to an army, for example: Hatred (Dwarfs), refers to the Dwarfs Army book. Another example, Khalida from the TK has the rule "Hatred (Vampire Counts)", the wording matches perfectly with the name of the armybook called Vampire Counts. So does Khalida hates only the vampires, or everything included in a Vampire Counts army?

I think the answer is clear here, there are 2 rules at work that people are mixing up. The Hatred ruled from the rulebook can either be all encompassing, or be specified to another faction (armybook).

Something different is that some armies happen to have a specific rule which looks a lot like the rulebook hatred, but it is a different rule. Dwarfs are not subjected to "Hatred (Orcs&Goblins)" but to "Ancestral Grudge". It is different. The former would affect all miniatures in an orcs and goblin army, the later specifies which are the targets: all the greenskins in the biological sense. Both rules have similar effects, in that the unit gets the effect of hatred, but the process by which the target is acquired is different.

Romark
01-11-2013, 09:25
I'm a Dark Elf. I really ***** hate High Elves. I'm fighting a battle against High Elves. An Eagle flys towards me, send by High Elves. I ***** hate the High Elf enslaved beast.

Simple. For your 40K comparison (and they are uncomparable. Marilyn Manson wrote Antichrist Superstar and The High End of Low. They are uncomparable. Just because the same dude wrote them doesn't mean they have to be the same.), if your a Space Marine and you see a Rhino coming towards you with Chaos markings on it, you hate it. Doesn't matter it isn't flesh and blood (unless it's Nurgled! :D Eh!?! EH!?!), you want to blow that piece of s*** up!

If i was walking along the street and i saw a High Elf flag on the floor I'd stamp on it, and i'm not even a real Dark Elf (after being amazed that my area is turning awesome). So yeah, I'd say it's everything from the Army Book.

Greyhorn
01-11-2013, 10:48
Wording is exactly: Hatred (High Elves).


[/COLOR]
Your analogy was clear, it just wasn't a clear enough answer for me.

We don't know if it's referring to the race, or the faction, once again. Look at 40K: Preferred Enemy: Eldar. Are you going to argue that Falcons and Avatars are not considered Eldar?
Avatar It's not an eldar in fact It's a deamon, so hatred: eldars does not afect it but as a GK player hatred: deamons yes it does.
my point is that hatred: high Elves means that you hate all the models that are In HE Army Book. It only states the () to specify what does your Army hate, otherwise you would gain the hatred rule against everything that stands in front of you.

dalezzz
01-11-2013, 12:56
So if a high elf army has some empire mercenary/allies do you hate them too? That's essentially all the birds are .

you probably do hate them actually but not enough to earn the reroll

Romark
01-11-2013, 13:59
So if a high elf army has some empire mercenary/allies do you hate them too? That's essentially all the birds are .

you probably do hate them actually but not enough to earn the reroll

Nah, they're doing it for money, the birds are doing it because of location (they could fly away) or something i assume.

Also, they didn't keep them from what is rightly theirs!

Soulless
05-11-2013, 17:26
Sorry guys but thinking that Hatred Warriors of Chaos is only for warriors not chosen or maruders or slughterbrute is just dumb - by the same standard DE re roll vs all things from codex HE - case closed thank you - and I would advise against whining for FAQ :) - I'm more then sure that when HE FAQ gets out BoWD is going to be errated ;)

sholcomb
06-11-2013, 16:14
Seriously guys, this is just common sense. They hate High Elves, the guys with pointy ears. These weird arguments are like the guys who claimed that the Daemon Prince wasn't really a daemon. Using arguments like these are against the spirit of the rules, and quite a stretch to interpret as RAW.

One thing I am surprised nobody brought up, but I think Dark Elves would definitely hate Asarnil the Dragonlord, even though he is/was in the Dogs of War book.

Tae
06-11-2013, 16:37
Seriously guys, this is just common sense. They hate High Elves, the guys with pointy ears. These weird arguments are like the guys who claimed that the Daemon Prince wasn't really a daemon. Using arguments like these are against the spirit of the rules, and quite a stretch to interpret as RAW

Not in the slightest. There is plenty of evidence that it applies to the book rather than the unit - see Snagla Grobspit (hatred Empire).

And even if it did apply to 'only the elves' part of the book, which it doesn't, what happens to things like chariots that are both elves and not elves in the same model?

Besides which, common sense has no bearing on what the rules are :p

theunwantedbeing
06-11-2013, 16:59
Seriously guys, this is just common sense. They hate High Elves, the guys with pointy ears. These weird arguments are like the guys who claimed that the Daemon Prince wasn't really a daemon. Using arguments like these are against the spirit of the rules, and quite a stretch to interpret as RAW.
It doesn't have the rule "Daemon" though.
It's silly to argue of course, but it does highlight an issue in that the rules simply aren't clear enough that people can feel they can argue such things.

That and anyone on a daemonic mount isn't considered to be a daemon as per the FAQ (http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m3180073a_Warriors_of_Chaos_v1.0_APRIL13.pdf), which is a little counter-intuitive.


One thing I am surprised nobody brought up, but I think Dark Elves would definitely hate Asarnil the Dragonlord, even though he is/was in the Dogs of War book.
That'de be because we all used some common sense and are ignoring old and outdated rules that don't apply.

Spiney Norman
07-11-2013, 13:35
Not in the slightest. There is plenty of evidence that it applies to the book rather than the unit - see Snagla Grobspit (hatred Empire).

And even if it did apply to 'only the elves' part of the book, which it doesn't, what happens to things like chariots that are both elves and not elves in the same model?

Besides which, common sense has no bearing on what the rules are :p

But there are also counter-examples like dwarf hatred of greenskins, which is understood to extend to greenskin models not contained in the O&G army book (such as gnoblars) and not include non-greenskin models in the O&G army book such as giants, trolls etc. To my knowledge there has never been a rule that suggests that hatred is always directed at a particular army book and all its associated units. There is also no suggestion that Hatred (designation) is to be regarded any differently than Fear (designation) and all the examples of Fear (X) that I can think of relate to specific units/unit types rather than entire army book (e.g. goblins Fear (Elves) etc).



That and anyone on a daemonic mount isn't considered to be a daemon as per the FAQ (http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m3180073a_Warriors_of_Chaos_v1.0_APRIL13.pdf), which is a little counter-intuitive.


How is that counter-intuitive? Just because Frankie Dettori rides a horse that doesn't make him a horse.

forseer of fates
07-11-2013, 14:47
Everyone should get the Eternal Hatred usr *teclis*

Roshan
07-11-2013, 14:52
But there are also counter-examples like dwarf hatred of greenskins, which is understood to extend to greenskin models not contained in the O&G army book (such as gnoblars) and not include non-greenskin models in the O&G army book such as giants, trolls etc. To my knowledge there has never been a rule that suggests that hatred is always directed at a particular army book and all its associated units. There is also no suggestion that Hatred (designation) is to be regarded any differently than Fear (designation) and all the examples of Fear (X) that I can think of relate to specific units/unit types rather than entire army book (e.g. goblins Fear (Elves) etc).



In the case of the Dwarfs though - Its a very specific and old rule, which is written clearly so you know exactly what you get hatred against. Its not a counter example because they are different rules. Just like Speed of Asyrian used to be with the old high elf book - it was ASF, but didnt follow the ASF rules.
I think the argument that there has never been a rule is tedious at best. The wording in most examples is clear.

Example

Queen Khalida - Hatred Vampire Counts
Night Goblins - Hatred Dwarfs
Snagla Grobspit - Hatred Empire

I could go on, but cant think of any more without books infront of me

in the case of Khalida and Snagla - they have specified specific Army book names. This is Fact. There are no units called Empire or Vampire Counts ( And i dont want to hear " Empire Knights" as a counter argument ) This is also fact.
So we have two facts that can lead us to a factual answer, it must be the entire army book. Regardless of how we as gamers may think its wrong. these are the facts. anything else is pure speculation and opinion.

We have to play as written until an FAQ confirms it or not.

Tae
07-11-2013, 18:15
In the case of the Dwarfs though - Its a very specific and old rule, which is written clearly so you know exactly what you get hatred against. Its not a counter example because they are different rules. Just like Speed of Asyrian used to be with the old high elf book - it was ASF, but didnt follow the ASF rules.
I think the argument that there has never been a rule is tedious at best. The wording in most examples is clear.

Example

Queen Khalida - Hatred Vampire Counts
Night Goblins - Hatred Dwarfs
Snagla Grobspit - Hatred Empire

I could go on, but cant think of any more without books infront of me

in the case of Khalida and Snagla - they have specified specific Army book names. This is Fact. There are no units called Empire or Vampire Counts ( And i dont want to hear " Empire Knights" as a counter argument ) This is also fact.
So we have two facts that can lead us to a factual answer, it must be the entire army book. Regardless of how we as gamers may think its wrong. these are the facts. anything else is pure speculation and opinion.

We have to play as written until an FAQ confirms it or not.

Agreed, plus it also makes working out which units are hated and which aren't much easier (such as chariots) to go by the hatred (army book) rather than hatred (unit types)

the beardless dwarf
07-11-2013, 18:55
On one hand DO eagles get ASF or martial prowness army special rules? No so why would dark elves have harted army special rule vs them

On the other hand WHY would you complicate rules.....

sholcomb
08-11-2013, 04:47
Queen Khalida - Hatred Vampire Counts
Night Goblins - Hatred Dwarfs
Snagla Grobspit - Hatred Empire

These are horrible examples. There are no individual units/race/category called Empire or Vampire Counts. It is an obvious reference to the entire book. As for Dwarfs, I play Chaos Dwarfs, and every tournament I have ever played in rules that any reference to hatred or special effects of Dwarfs effected me too. Besides, there is nothing in a Dwarf army that is not intrinsically a Dwarf, unlike the High Elf army. These examples simply do not help your point.

bigbiggles
08-11-2013, 05:24
Chariots are manned by high elves, so dark elves would get hatred against it

Roshan
08-11-2013, 07:38
These are horrible examples. There are no individual units/race/category called Empire or Vampire Counts. It is an obvious reference to the entire book. As for Dwarfs, I play Chaos Dwarfs, and every tournament I have ever played in rules that any reference to hatred or special effects of Dwarfs effected me too. Besides, there is nothing in a Dwarf army that is not intrinsically a Dwarf, unlike the High Elf army. These examples simply do not help your point.

Actually these are good examples - because they reference just that, the army book. Im glad you agree.
I play dwarfs and the rules against them for me are clear. Please bear in mind Chaos dwarfs are a Forgeworld army, it wouldnt be the first time the BRB rules and FW rules were not quite in sync.
However just to go back on your first point and indeed the topic of this thread - does it not state clearly - Hatred High Elves? So my horrible example as you clearly put it, would the same apply to Hatered High elves....

Point made.

Roshan
08-11-2013, 07:42
On one hand DO eagles get ASF or martial prowness army special rules? No so why would dark elves have harted army special rule vs them

On the other hand WHY would you complicate rules.....

I dont see what relevance what rules they may or may not have. People are complicating things with pointless arguments about the merit of which unit is an elf and which is not. I Honestly think that it is INTENTIONAL for Gw to write their rules for hatred to be simplifed to a single book. I know i would, because its easier. I dont know why people are struggling to see that.

Romark
08-11-2013, 07:43
On one hand DO eagles get ASF or martial prowness army special rules? No so why would dark elves have harted army special rule vs them

On the other hand WHY would you complicate rules.....

I cant quote from the High Elf book, but i know that in the Dark Elf book it specifically states that mounts and creatures do not benefit from ASF and Murderous Prowess. As 'Hatred: High Elves' doesn't have this clarification i'd say it's against the army book.

Has this ever been a question before? We had the same rule in the previous edition and i don't remember seeing this. Were people only re-rolling attacks against eagles in the first round of combat?

Persufflation
08-11-2013, 09:45
These are horrible examples. There are no individual units/race/category called Empire or Vampire Counts. It is an obvious reference to the entire book. As for Dwarfs, I play Chaos Dwarfs, and every tournament I have ever played in rules that any reference to hatred or special effects of Dwarfs effected me too. Besides, there is nothing in a Dwarf army that is not intrinsically a Dwarf, unlike the High Elf army. These examples simply do not help your point.

Actually the characters from the vampire book are 'vampire counts' by fluff...I would still say that Khalida gets hatred vs the book...

the chaos dwarf book (Tammurkhan: the throne of chaos) was released after the orcs and goblins army book...this offers ambiguity as to the goblin rule (Hatred Dwarves) as there are now multiple armies (updated since the turn of the century) with dwarves in the name...there is also the problem that GW and forgeworld don't seem to talk to each other and that GW didn't see fit to allow the chaos dwarves in their own tournament last year leading to arguments of 'is the army official'...as a CD player to mitigate claims of being an 'overpowered unofficial army' folks generally rule against themselves in ambiguous situations such as this...BTW the issue of what is a 'chaos dwarf' has come up with this book (as there are items which are 'chaos dwarf only' and despite being 'blessed chaos dwarfs' by fluff bull centaurs have generally been prohibited from taking these items)...we can hope that when GW updates the O&G book next year they clarify this situation...

perhaps we should look to GW's website for what is 'high elves'...units listed for sale such as 'high elf flamespyre phoenix' or 'high elf great eagle' (in fact everything for sale for the army is listed with the tag 'high elf')...this would seem to indicate GW's intent that these units are considered high elves...thoughts?

Tae
08-11-2013, 19:26
These are horrible examples. There are no individual units/race/category called Empire or Vampire Counts. It is an obvious reference to the entire book.

EXACTLY! Thank you for reinforcing my point.

Spiney Norman
09-11-2013, 22:42
These are horrible examples. There are no individual units/race/category called Empire or Vampire Counts. It is an obvious reference to the entire book. As for Dwarfs, I play Chaos Dwarfs, and every tournament I have ever played in rules that any reference to hatred or special effects of Dwarfs effected me too. Besides, there is nothing in a Dwarf army that is not intrinsically a Dwarf, unlike the High Elf army. These examples simply do not help your point.

Indeed, and since its really not clear whether Hatred (dwarfs) is an army book reference like Hatred (Empire) or a racial term like Hatred (Greenskins) or Fear (elves) it could certainly be argued that Night Goblins get their rerolls against chaos dwarfs.

The point is that these rules sometimes refer to army books, and they sometimes refer to races, in the case where the name of an army book is the same as a race (e.g. Dwarfs, high elves etc) it is unclear. Quite obviously hatred (Greenskins) cannot refer to an army book because there is not Warhammer Armies: Greenskins, and Hatred (Empire) cannot refer to a race because there is not "Empire" race in the game. There are clear examples of the rule being used both ways so arguing that it is always used one way or always used the other when the rules don't indicate one way or another or make any kind of comment on which should take precedence, is a rather futile exercise.



perhaps we should look to GW's website for what is 'high elves'...units listed for sale such as 'high elf flamespyre phoenix' or 'high elf great eagle' (in fact everything for sale for the army is listed with the tag 'high elf')...this would seem to indicate GW's intent that these units are considered high elves...thoughts?

We're taking rules definitions from the online store now? I would say if anything you go by the unit's name in its army book entry, if it is called a 'High Elf Flamespyre Phoenix' there, then you are pretty safe.

Roshan
09-11-2013, 22:58
Indeed, and since its really not clear whether Hatred (dwarfs) is an army book reference like Hatred (Empire) or a racial term like Hatred (Greenskins) or Fear (elves) it could certainly be argued that Night Goblins get their rerolls against chaos dwarfs.

The point is that these rules sometimes refer to army books, and they sometimes refer to races, in the case where the name of an army book is the same as a race (e.g. Dwarfs, high elves etc) it is unclear. Quite obviously hatred (Greenskins) cannot refer to an army book because there is not Warhammer Armies: Greenskins, and Hatred (Empire) cannot refer to a race because there is not "Empire" race in the game. There are clear examples of the rule being used both ways so arguing that it is always used one way or always used the other when the rules don't indicate one way or another is a rather futile exercise.



We're taking rules definitions from the online store now? I would say if anything you go buy the un it's name in its army book entry, if it is called a 'High Elf Flamespyre Phoenix' there, then you are pretty safe.

Spiney, i can see what your saying...but your getting bogged down in several other rules issues not relevant for the original question.
Dwarfs as has been stated have their own special rule outside of the normal...its a 6th ed book for gods sake.
Chaos dwarfs....well its forgeworld, who really knows. But i doubt we will ever get a clarification because it is forgeworld.
Fear and who fears what is a discussion for another thread, however with fear i could see the logic in working out what is an elf, dwarf...whatever.

Getting back to the matter at hand and hatred High elves...i think we all have to accept that this is the way GW are simplifying the rules and its going to be armybook based.

sholcomb
10-11-2013, 05:37
Dark Elves hate High Elves because of their long and deep war with them. Do they specifically hate Eagles, unmounted Griffons, or Phoenixes? There is no reason to think so just because they are frequently allied with the High Elves. They don't hate Wood Elf eagles or Empire Griffons. Common sense seems to make it clear what the intent was. Saying that GW is simplifying things is just Dark Elf players wanting yet another advantage.

As for Chaos Dwarfs, they have been around long before Forgeworld, so it is not just a communication problem. It is clear that races are referred to many times in the game.

Roshan
10-11-2013, 14:39
Dark Elves hate High Elves because of their long and deep war with them. Do they specifically hate Eagles, unmounted Griffons, or Phoenixes? There is no reason to think so just because they are frequently allied with the High Elves. They don't hate Wood Elf eagles or Empire Griffons. Common sense seems to make it clear what the intent was. Saying that GW is simplifying things is just Dark Elf players wanting yet another advantage.

As for Chaos Dwarfs, they have been around long before Forgeworld, so it is not just a communication problem. It is clear that races are referred to many times in the game.
Yet they all come from the high elf book, found within high elf armies, I see no reason why its unfeasible for Dark elves to hate them also. For the record , I'm not a Dark elf player, suggesting that the simplification is a way of dark elves taking advantage is absurd. High elf players have short memories, until the new book their militia armies had the rules advantage over the warrior race of Dark Elves. I think regardless of what people think is the intent, the rule is very clear that all the new Hatred rules are against the Army books........

Spiney Norman
10-11-2013, 16:48
Dark Elves hate High Elves because of their long and deep war with them. Do they specifically hate Eagles, unmounted Griffons, or Phoenixes? There is no reason to think so just because they are frequently allied with the High Elves. They don't hate Wood Elf eagles or Empire Griffons. Common sense seems to make it clear what the intent was. Saying that GW is simplifying things is just Dark Elf players wanting yet another advantage.

As for Chaos Dwarfs, they have been around long before Forgeworld, so it is not just a communication problem. It is clear that races are referred to many times in the game.

This discussion ceased to be about what was a logical way to solve the rules problem several pages back, its now about trying to argue RAW to prove your point is correct.

Night goblins have hated dwarfs for several editions, and there were still players fielding Chaos Dwarfs from the Ravening hordes list until forgeworld started their thing.

Roshan, where exactly does the rule state 'very clearly' that Hatred is always (or even usually) about army books? I've never seen any reference to army books either in the hatred rule as it appears in the BRB, in an FAQ or in an army book. I'm not necessarily saying you're wrong, but if you are claiming your assertions as more than just your opinion then it should be backed up by quotations.

Also discounting the precedent set by the Fear rule is somewhat illogical, the two rules are analogous in many ways and use exactly the same form to denote their subject.

Roshan
10-11-2013, 20:52
This discussion ceased to be about what was a logical way to solve the rules problem several pages back, its now about trying to argue RAW to prove your point is correct.

Night goblins have hated dwarfs for several editions, and there were still players fielding Chaos Dwarfs from the Ravening hordes list until forgeworld started their thing.

Roshan, where exactly does the rule state 'very clearly' that Hatred is always (or even usually) about army books? I've never seen any reference to army books either in the hatred rule as it appears in the BRB, in an FAQ or in an army book. I'm not necessarily saying you're wrong, but if you are claiming your assertions as more than just your opinion then it should be backed up by quotations.

Also discounting the precedent set by the Fear rule is somewhat illogical, the two rules are analogous in many ways and use exactly the same form to denote their subject.
Actually the BRB does state an army book in its example. It states Hatred - Dwarfs. Now bear in mind that at the time 8th came out Chaos Dwarfs were no longer a faction, you could argue clutching at straws that the Hellcannon had a chaos dwarf crew, but as they don't really count for the purposes of combat ( as you don't hit them ) this is really irrelevant. Correct me if I am wrong but isn't Dwarfs the name of the army book?
I set myself the task of disproving myself, checking all the books I own, in every example I can see it references the name of the army book. Indeed I checked items which grant hatred too.... the Lizardmen one strikes me as being the most clear example to date.... Skavenpelt banner " All models in a unit with the skaven pelt banner gain the frenzy and hatred (skaven ) special rules. However all models from Warhammer: Skaven gain the Hatred special rule while attacking the bearer" in this we actually have a very clear indication of the hatred rules working to show that an entire book hates the bearer. Therefore, with every other example indicating an army book name, I would draw the conclusion that indeed the Hatred rules where an name of an army appears, always refers to any unit inside the book. In the case of this question and hatred: High Elves...... its everything in the book.

Persufflation
11-11-2013, 00:03
Indeed, and since its really not clear whether Hatred (dwarfs) is an army book reference like Hatred (Empire) or a racial term like Hatred (Greenskins) or Fear (elves) it could certainly be argued that Night Goblins get their rerolls against chaos dwarfs.

The point is that these rules sometimes refer to army books, and they sometimes refer to races, in the case where the name of an army book is the same as a race (e.g. Dwarfs, high elves etc) it is unclear. Quite obviously hatred (Greenskins) cannot refer to an army book because there is not Warhammer Armies: Greenskins, and Hatred (Empire) cannot refer to a race because there is not "Empire" race in the game. There are clear examples of the rule being used both ways so arguing that it is always used one way or always used the other when the rules don't indicate one way or another or make any kind of comment on which should take precedence, is a rather futile exercise.



We're taking rules definitions from the online store now? I would say if anything you go by the unit's name in its army book entry, if it is called a 'High Elf Flamespyre Phoenix' there, then you are pretty safe.


Well...in my High Elves book there is nothing referred to as High Elves (only spearmen, archers, swordmasters of hoeth, etc)...are you suggesting that we should assume that 'Hatred: High Elves' has no in game impact since there is no unit named with high elves in the high elves book?

I was simply taking it the next step further and trying to make the point that GW themselves consider phoenixes to be 'high elves' and as such should fall under the rule...

In my Dwarf army book it says that dwarfs have an 'ancestral grudge' under which it very clearly outlines what they hate due to this including specific units: 'all types of orcs, goblins, black orcs, night goblins, hobgoblins (from chaos dwarfs if using ravening hordes or now tammurkhan), gnoblars'...and extending it to all green-skins (not sure who they left out that this refers to...perhaps savage orcs which may fall under all types of orcs?)...when they put a rule and don't specify what units it refers too but instead put the name on the cover of an army book I would have to guess they are referring to the units contained within the army book...this makes it much clearer what they mean...in later books like O&G they did not specify what they meant in this detail (eg Fear: elves)...this should receive an errata to specify what they meant (Army books with 'elves' in the name?...things people racially associate with being elves?...Units with elves in its unit entry name?...etc)...this does not however directly relate to the true meaning of Hatred: High Elves which seems quite clear to me as being a reference to an army book (since that is the only thing in the game referred to with that moniker just like 'empire', etc.)