PDA

View Full Version : Lizardmen Vs Dark Elves - Matchup?



Myster2
08-10-2013, 19:47
LM matchup vs DE.


I've been combing through the DE rumors this morning and being mostly a lizardmen player I have to say i'm seeing this match up as extremly difficult for LM. Granted it might be extremely difficult for any army but i view it from the eyes of LM. I started this thread hoping for opinions on how to overcome the issues I see below.


(p.s. I don't know all the new DE rules, just what I have read).


First off if you haven't played as lizardmen understand that lizardmen rely on high toughness and high strength to win games. They are not an army of guile or an army of shooting. The point of lizardmen is to take the first punch, absorb it and then hit back harder.


The overall problems I see vs Dark Elves


1) ASF - This is already an issue vs HE and Dark Elves are just better. LM have the lowest initiative in the game and there is no way they will ever be able to deny ASF to dark elves. Lizardmen also have a relatively expensive core fighting unit and with the rerolls its easy to reduce the ranks to the point that the two attacks back from LM aren't that useful. LM can slightly mitigate the punch by being T4 for thier core infantry. More on how this really isn't that useful later. (I also don't know the S for the DE Core, if WE or Corsairs have S4 then there is no chance for LM to go toe to toe core).


2)MP - Since ASF is already an issue MP just makes it worse. Rerolling those 1's partially mitigates the T4 core saurus.


3)Magic - I haven't been able to tell if DE still get sacrifical dagger. If they don't have it then LM still get a slight advantage here (that LM pay dearly for). The only unit that the Dark Magic test or die spell would be useful against would be a slann. Overall DE get magic equivalent to LM at a cheaper price.


4)Shooting - LM shooting is not that great in general and even worse against any armored units. Blowpipes are more for killing monsters, not stuff that wears armor. DE shooting on the otherhand is superb. Fast cav with good shooting, same crossbow units and an abundance of RBT's at S6 vs no armor save. (more on this later).


5) WS - This is also a problem with HE for LM. The high weapon skill verses the almost universal WS of 3 of LM means that the elves are always hitting on those 3s.


Units I see giving the LM the most problems and need some strategies against:


CORE:


1) Witch Elves: I'm racking my brain for how i will handle these with LM. 3 attacks each, with poison ASF, elven movement. Poison means that they can kill stegadons pretty easily, 3 attacks with ASF means that they will chop through any core unit. High movement vs low LM movement means they can attack what they want. The consensus will be to chaff them around because they are frenzied. Good idea on paper, see next unit.


2) Dark Riders: Inexpensive, AS4+, good shooting, ASF, Fast Cav., core. These will wipe any chaff of the board turn one with vanguard and shooting and will be able to hold and marchblock without any issues. Skinks will melt to these guys and they can easily get to chameleons. They can also easily pick off solo skink priests. Use those dispel scrolls early.


3) Corsairs: 2 attacks(AHW), ASF, 4+ save. These will be able to go toe to toe with saurus and are priced as such. The higher WS,ASF and MP puts them over the top in the fighting.


Special:


1)Executioners: Every bit as unstoppable as White Lions for a lizardmen force and even better. Currently there is nothing that can stop white lions in the lizardmen book and just as such nothing will be able to stand up to executioners. Since they are only 1 point more than a saurus warrior expect hordes of these. On a positive note, there is generally less for KB to destroy in a LM list.


2)Shades: Lets take a skirmisher and give them GW along with high BS shooting (also ASF and MP). Actually lets make them scout to. This is another reason LM skink chaff wont last long, or any lone LM unit. Or Ogres.


3)RBT's: Every list that does not feel bad for their opponent will have 4 since they are in special. They are Str 6 (someone said they can be s7?), BS4 and ignore armor. Nothing new here, they kill stegadons, salamanders, and anything else in the Lizardmen list pretty easily. Chameleons are the usual choice to deal with them except when chameleons get run over by dark riders. Terradons will get shot down before they get to do much vs them (see high mobility shooting above).


4)War Hydra: As always this thing is annoying to deal with as LM. I generally follow it around with chameleons and I don't see this changing. Or i'll charge it with a bastilidon since its the same cost and cry a little on the inside.


Rare:
1)Doomfire Warlocks: I have been feeling a bit smug lately as i roll 5 dice to channel by using my slann with and two skink priests. I guess GW felt my smugness and decided to do something about it. Also these have ASF and poison so can threaten a Stegadon (or just doombolt it to death first).


Game Plan: LM vs Dark Elves


Okay given the above information what will your game plan be vs DE's? What do you have to have to beat them and what won't work at all?

Chain
08-10-2013, 21:39
perhaps pick a magic lore that target their shooting?
I haven't read the 8'th ed Liz but salamanders or razadons should be dangerous.
only DE core with S4 is charging DR.
I believe the bigger the units get the more favor the saurus would get vs Corsairs and BG though unfortunately lore of shadow would become an even greater risk.

View this more as an opinion than advice

Spiney Norman
08-10-2013, 22:34
In fairness the new DE book is just HE without the Phoenixes, I can't really see that Lizards will have any problems with them whatsoever. If anything DE are even less resilient than HE and don't hit much harder. Salamanders to burn up the infantry, stegadons to skewer the monsters and skink clouds to tie them all up with double flee shenanigans. Generally I find that lizards have a really easy time against elves anyway.

I'd take my favourite wandering Slann for general purpose magicing, and perhaps a heavens priest to help shut down any bolt throwers.

ewar
08-10-2013, 23:00
LM matchup vs DE.


I've been combing through the DE rumors this morning and being mostly a lizardmen player I have to say i'm seeing this match up as extremly difficult for LM. Granted it might be extremely difficult for any army but i view it from the eyes of LM. I started this thread hoping for opinions on how to overcome the issues I see below.


(p.s. I don't know all the new DE rules, just what I have read).


First off if you haven't played as lizardmen understand that lizardmen rely on high toughness and high strength to win games. They are not an army of guile or an army of shooting. The point of lizardmen is to take the first punch, absorb it and then hit back harder.


The overall problems I see vs Dark Elves


1) ASF - This is already an issue vs HE and Dark Elves are just better. LM have the lowest initiative in the game and there is no way they will ever be able to deny ASF to dark elves. Lizardmen also have a relatively expensive core fighting unit and with the rerolls its easy to reduce the ranks to the point that the two attacks back from LM aren't that useful. LM can slightly mitigate the punch by being T4 for thier core infantry. More on how this really isn't that useful later. (I also don't know the S for the DE Core, if WE or Corsairs have S4 then there is no chance for LM to go toe to toe core).


2)MP - Since ASF is already an issue MP just makes it worse. Rerolling those 1's partially mitigates the T4 core saurus.


3)Magic - I haven't been able to tell if DE still get sacrifical dagger. If they don't have it then LM still get a slight advantage here (that LM pay dearly for). The only unit that the Dark Magic test or die spell would be useful against would be a slann. Overall DE get magic equivalent to LM at a cheaper price.


4)Shooting - LM shooting is not that great in general and even worse against any armored units. Blowpipes are more for killing monsters, not stuff that wears armor. DE shooting on the otherhand is superb. Fast cav with good shooting, same crossbow units and an abundance of RBT's at S6 vs no armor save. (more on this later).


5) WS - This is also a problem with HE for LM. The high weapon skill verses the almost universal WS of 3 of LM means that the elves are always hitting on those 3s.


Units I see giving the LM the most problems and need some strategies against:


CORE:


1) Witch Elves: I'm racking my brain for how i will handle these with LM. 3 attacks each, with poison ASF, elven movement. Poison means that they can kill stegadons pretty easily, 3 attacks with ASF means that they will chop through any core unit. High movement vs low LM movement means they can attack what they want. The consensus will be to chaff them around because they are frenzied. Good idea on paper, see next unit.


2) Dark Riders: Inexpensive, AS4+, good shooting, ASF, Fast Cav., core. These will wipe any chaff of the board turn one with vanguard and shooting and will be able to hold and marchblock without any issues. Skinks will melt to these guys and they can easily get to chameleons. They can also easily pick off solo skink priests. Use those dispel scrolls early.


3) Corsairs: 2 attacks(AHW), ASF, 4+ save. These will be able to go toe to toe with saurus and are priced as such. The higher WS,ASF and MP puts them over the top in the fighting.


Special:


1)Executioners: Every bit as unstoppable as White Lions for a lizardmen force and even better. Currently there is nothing that can stop white lions in the lizardmen book and just as such nothing will be able to stand up to executioners. Since they are only 1 point more than a saurus warrior expect hordes of these. On a positive note, there is generally less for KB to destroy in a LM list.


2)Shades: Lets take a skirmisher and give them GW along with high BS shooting (also ASF and MP). Actually lets make them scout to. This is another reason LM skink chaff wont last long, or any lone LM unit. Or Ogres.


3)RBT's: Every list that does not feel bad for their opponent will have 4 since they are in special. They are Str 6 (someone said they can be s7?), BS4 and ignore armor. Nothing new here, they kill stegadons, salamanders, and anything else in the Lizardmen list pretty easily. Chameleons are the usual choice to deal with them except when chameleons get run over by dark riders. Terradons will get shot down before they get to do much vs them (see high mobility shooting above).


4)War Hydra: As always this thing is annoying to deal with as LM. I generally follow it around with chameleons and I don't see this changing. Or i'll charge it with a bastilidon since its the same cost and cry a little on the inside.


Rare:
1)Doomfire Warlocks: I have been feeling a bit smug lately as i roll 5 dice to channel by using my slann with and two skink priests. I guess GW felt my smugness and decided to do something about it. Also these have ASF and poison so can threaten a Stegadon (or just doombolt it to death first).


Game Plan: LM vs Dark Elves


Okay given the above information what will your game plan be vs DE's? What do you have to have to beat them and what won't work at all?

It's too late to respond to all your individual points. I haven't played against the new DE book yet (first game this weekend) but my lifelong gaming buddy uses DE so I have versed them more than any other army - they are a good match up for us!

- DE excel at killing T3 and monsters. Make sure your saurus units are 30 minimum, I run 40 a lot, you can take a lot of casualties and still hit back at 100% effectiveness.
- Salamanders absolutely murder elves. Our shooting is MUCH more effective against them than theirs is against us. Take 3 sallies, shoot all of them at once at the witch elf unit, watch the WE get scooped off the board.
- magic: Conflagration is your friend, it will take off 2/3 off a WE or Exec unit in the first round, then ruin their magic phase the turn after
- never, ever, ever send monsters against WE.
- always, always send stegs with sharpened horns against their monsters
- take lots of skink skirmishers (at least 3x10) to give your stegs the charge and focus fire hydras to death
- skink priests with wyssans and the option for double scroll?!

Honestly, your assessment is focussing on the wrong things - we chaff them off the table with terries and skinks. Saurus are rock hard when boosted by magic. Just don't rush into combat with them, use your support units to whittle their T3 low armour units down.

They have lost a lot of their killer units (pendant lords, old hydra, 12" stubborn bubble cauldron and moveable ward save or extra attack). We have all the tools to smash them up, just don't get distracted by shades or dark riders, those units aren't going to win them the game.

draccan
08-10-2013, 23:11
I think Lizardmen is much better than most people give them credit for. If built and played the right way I think they can give DE a hard time. High T, good magic, great "warmachines", cheap skinks, many strings to play.

Dreyer
09-10-2013, 05:23
Just dont fight them :) Dark elves will munch us in combat but Lizardmen never was a that great of a combat army to begin with. Skinks, chameleons, terradons and salamanders work great against dark elves and even magic missiles like fireball hurts a lot on those toughness 3 elites. Win the chaff war, win the game

Gharnukk
09-10-2013, 08:03
Good advice here :) I use 36 Saurus warriors and 25 Temple guards with Slann and scar-veteran in it. They chew through elves really good. Salamanders is just wonderful. And elves dont like impact hits, and stomps.

him_15
11-10-2013, 07:51
You are using LM's main weakness against DE's main advantage which is obviously not going to work.
Like othres said, use Salamanders and our supreme magic to soft up their infantry before you engage them, kill their warmachine with Terradon and C.Skinks, shoot their monster to dead with skinks.

laribold
11-10-2013, 09:49
I'm not sure why you're quite so scared about the Witch Elves?

Sure they've got a bucketload of attacks with poison, murderous prowess etc... etc... but it seems to me that Saurus Warriors with spears will do a number on them.

Let's assume 6-wide WE vs 6-wide Saurus with spears. They will both put out 24 attacks each.

On average the Witch Elves will do 5-6 wounds compared to an average of 9 for the Saurus warriors (assuming Pred Fighter is for front rank only). That should be enough to beat the frenzy out of the Witch Elves for the next combat round.

I know maths doesn't win matches but for an identically-priced core unit the Saurus Warriors seem to do quite handsomely.

Add to that the Witch Elves frenzy can be used to force overrun them out of the game/set up some nice flank charges for the Saurus.

I'm not really seeing the problem here... (unless my calculations are wildly inaccurate - a distinct possibility)

Chain
11-10-2013, 10:40
I don't think the DE player will be to interested in a toe to toe between WE and Sauruses unless the Witches got something like the Cauldron or other backing without the Sauruses having a similar backing.

What the Sauruses would probably be fighting would be the Executioners Heading their way.

going by your 2 ranks of 6:
The Executioners Should deal ~ 7,77 wounds (assuming Sauruses don’t have over 4+ save)
and recieve ~7,5 back
Unfortunatly for the DE player his Executioners cost a point more

Asuryan's Spear
11-10-2013, 11:12
Okay I really think your focussing on the wrong things here...the corsairs are now the cost of your Saurus but have s/t 3 and no cold blooded... I cannot understate how big the str 3 is. Yes there will be lots of attacks coming your way and yes 1s will be re-rolled but honestly I've played 4 games and it isn't a deal breaker especially against T4. There is always some fear mongering when a new book comes out but I think you've over estimated our punch. We used to get rerolls from hatred before and now we have ASF and elves don't do that we'll in protracted combats... T3 and a relatively low average armour save means your Saurus should weather most of the attacks and make a killing on the attack back.

Now onto something more constructive... My big concern for any opponent is the cauldron. This thing with a witchbrew hag in witch elves will tear your army apart hit it with everything! Dwellers or anything strength based should work.

Second point- kill the hydras in combat. I've found that shooting rarely wipes them off the board without going overkill and with the ability to regenerate wounds back to starting total you can't whittle them down from far away anymore so tuck under that shield and get in there. Maybe some Krocigors can handle it

Last point as a DE player my armies speed and potential to hit hard and first means more often than not I like to be on the front foot and control the tempo of the game. Therefore be aggressive; you'd be surprised how hard it is for DE to have to play more defensively