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Richmt11
13-10-2013, 13:36
All,

I am after a bit of advice. I recently put up a HE gunline army vs. WoC. And it was a hard slog, so i have ditched the idea and going for a list morel ike what i used to run. But i notice alot of people are taking Silver Helm busses these days.

So im after some advice, what compliments my current selection the best, helm bus or spear bus;

FH Phoenix
G.Eagle
G.Eagle
Noble BSB
21 Phoenix Guard
21 Swordmasters
5 Ellyrian Reavers
Mage - Lvl 2 of beasts, shadow or life (dunno yet for buffs mainly = scroll caddy)
Archmage (High Magic)
RBT
RBT
5 Ellyrian Reavers


Didnt wanna put all details because you get the jist of what i can give them item and banner wise its much the same.

So the noble would either be mounted and in a helm bus or on foot.

I never have much luck with cav to be honest (rubber lances) but whats gonna best compliment the army at this stage?


Thanks,

Imperator64
13-10-2013, 16:21
I've only played a couple of games with helves so please understand the limits of my advice. That said, I rarely lose with anything so here it goes.... Your army is very similar to mine but I use archers in the core spot you're deciding on. In the case of helms vs spearmen i'd choose helms. They're a great and relatively inexpensive way on delivering accurate, high stregnth and fast moving hits onto the enemy. Although spearmen are more able to break steadfast and with Move between worlds can be as fast as anything. If I took helms then my noble would definitely be packing MR.

Turion Rilyaloce
13-10-2013, 16:47
It's worth mentioning that you should not be suffering rubber lance syndrome with elven cavalry thanks to ASF.

Richmt11
13-10-2013, 22:10
Ive never really had archers work for me. The other day i tried an archer list vs. warriors of chaos, and i think i did 10 kills before they hit my lines. Now with martial prowess they held up well to be honest, but obviously its not enough.

Thing is i want silver helms to work and i think overall i dont need another anvil as PG stand up so well, so the additional punch would be awesome. But to be honest im struggling with banners.

The spearmen can take magical standard, which id probably do for flaming or something, and maybe go shadow on my lvl 4 for okkams. The silver helms get no magical standard. So i have to put Razor on the PG, and BOTWD on the SM. Leaving flaming for spears. But if i go silver helms id have to go BOTWD on the bsb, and put him in with helms, then go for flaming on my swordmasters leaving them open to being 6 diced in some way.... Or can i survive with no flaming banner? As im kitted out for close combat, my only flaming comes in the form of the phoenix (which is flame btw i labelled up wrong in list). But he strikes after elves, so i dont get the benefit...

I guess ill just have to leave the flaming banner at home...

Sin Eater
14-10-2013, 00:02
Ive never really had archers work for me. The other day i tried an archer list vs. warriors of chaos, and i think i did 10 kills before they hit my lines. Now with martial prowess they held up well to be honest, but obviously its not enough.

Thing is i want silver helms to work and i think overall i dont need another anvil as PG stand up so well, so the additional punch would be awesome. But to be honest im struggling with banners.

The spearmen can take magical standard, which id probably do for flaming or something, and maybe go shadow on my lvl 4 for okkams. The silver helms get no magical standard. So i have to put Razor on the PG, and BOTWD on the SM. Leaving flaming for spears. But if i go silver helms id have to go BOTWD on the bsb, and put him in with helms, then go for flaming on my swordmasters leaving them open to being 6 diced in some way.... Or can i survive with no flaming banner? As im kitted out for close combat, my only flaming comes in the form of the phoenix (which is flame btw i labelled up wrong in list). But he strikes after elves, so i dont get the benefit...

I guess ill just have to leave the flaming banner at home...


Archers are absolutely terrible against Chaos, T4 with 3+ save on warriors! then there's chariots where you wound on 6 and he gets 3+ save. The ONLY option shooting chaos is RBT and Sisters with high sister and Reavers bow.

ive had really really good success with a unit of 28 Sword Masters and Botwd. Always recommend that.


Why are you so he'll bent on flaming attacks?

Lord Solar Plexus
14-10-2013, 05:39
Supposedly to remove Regen.

Killing half a Chaos army with archers can't really be called unworkable! ;)

Richmt11
14-10-2013, 05:45
Yeah the flaming attacks is purely for regen. There's just so much with it around at the moment, if its not trolls units are getting it through magic.

I think I'm gonna leave the flaming banner and go for the silver helm bus. Will they need my bsb or can I put him on foot to save the points? If I do that I can put khaines ring on my lvl 2 and then when he's in with PG he can get them to 3+ ward.

Sin Eater
14-10-2013, 09:31
I run a unit of ten Silver Helms with banner and champ, comes in quite cheap for a 2+ save unit and they have such excellent movement due to Ithalmar barding that they can be a massive pain in the **** to the opponent.

The thing I struggle with HE's at the moment is the Core choices, I've tried large units of Lothern Sea Guard, but they get minced in CC, and a Str3 bow is still Str3. I'd stick with Silver Helms and Elyrian Reavers for core then you can spend all your fun points on the punchy stuff.

I played a 1,200 game last night and a unit of 27 Sword Masters with Lvl 2 Wizard and Banner of world Dragon took out 40 Clan Rats whilst being flanked by a unit of Storm Vermin that had a grey seer in them and a BSB Hero as well, and the Sword Masters won with flying colours, they destroyed the slaves, made the storm vermin run away with less than 25% and then charged and destroyed a doom wheel, I can't rate Sword Masters high enough as if you take enough it can really cause problems for the opponent. Then you take 2-3 RBT and the enemy sudddenly has to come to you pretty quick smart!

rolly_321
14-10-2013, 12:22
I don't think 2-3 RBT throwers would be enough of an incentive to make many players want to get into combat with a big block of sword masters. In particular armies like empire can happily outgun you and sword masters reeeeeeally don't like being hit at range. Cannons focus fire at the bolt throwers first couple of turn, hellblaster, hellstorm, crossbows, even the humble mortar will love having so many expensive low toughness/low armour models in one unit.

27 sword masters is a scary unit in combat, outside of combat its a liability. I think white lions might fair better if you want to peg bolts at the opponent while copping return fire and making them come to you.

Sin Eater
14-10-2013, 12:32
White Lions wouldn't get a save versus all the stuff you've just listed, and with the banner of world dragon a wizard and a champion with the amulet that gives your guys a 6+ ward versus no magical shooting attacks all of a sudden with one cheeky spell off form the wizard your Sword masters have a 2+ versus magical and a 4+ versus none magical shooting. Well that's what my bud told me last night, I'm still VERY new to the game.

Also if the Empire guy is shooting at your RBT then you have your other units to hopefully disrupt them, Elyrian Reavers, Chariots, Shadow warriors and Eagles? I don't know just putting my self in a hypothetical situation...

Mostly though my statement about taking 2-3 bolt throwers was when you're facing Chaos.

Kahadras
14-10-2013, 20:11
So I'm after some advice, what compliments my current selection the best, helm bus or spear bus;

My main piece of advise is don't expect a lot from your core. I've certainly found that you spend the 25% mandatory core points and then go and buy the units that are actualy going to go and win you the game. HE core is really there just to help out. Looking at the list you're concidering you could go for either Silver Helms or Spearmen. The Silver Helms give you another mobile unit but they're poor in protracted combats due to their low strength and are best used to hunt down enemy chaff/warmachines were a decent amount of accurate strength five hits can take them out in a single round. Spearmen are another block infantry unit but are going to need magic support if they go up against anything remotely scary. Both choices need to function as support units for the rest of the army but will do slightly different jobs.

rolly_321
14-10-2013, 23:35
Lions would only not got get a save from cannons and the hellblaster. And yes, reavers, eagles etc are well suited to disrupting artillery. It does sound like you've given your swordstar some thought, although i still think depending on magic to protect you from shooting and not being cavalry would make that a difficult build or at least require a very specific list to go with it. 4+ is still going to drop bodies relatively fast on a really expensive unit if you get hit by any kind of template or high volume of hits like a hellblaster. obviously not every army will be empire, but most lists have some access to either a high volume of shots or a template - although choas will cry since im fairly sure the hellcannon is magical.. vampire counts and of course daemons too have little non-magic threat at range now i think about it - annnnnnyway, wounds are easy to get on t3, meaning you'll need to roll a lot of 4s and up. This said, i havn't played against 30ish swordmasters in one unit with the set up youve mentioned so im speaking hypothetically.

I think spearmen get underestimated a lot of the time. No they won't do that well against elite infantry or heavy cav but every other army needs to bring core too. Asf and high initiative (thus re-rolls) is kinda like having a rip spell that you can't loose on them for free and certainly with their low strength since more hits is more chances to wound. Against anything thats not also core yeah they'll need magic support or another unit to help out, and their rules mean they better suited as a go big or go home style unit, but since you have to allocate 25% to core... I don't actually play HE (empire & wood elves mostly) but I have respect for High elf spearmen.

Methios
15-10-2013, 04:52
A good selection advice: select Dark Elfs ;)

Richmt11
16-10-2013, 05:51
Lol dark delfs!

I played my WOC friend last night, to work on building the list. And basiclly i am pleased with the silver helms, but i didnt use them properly, and so the situation they got in, the spermen could have equally dealt with, although im not sure if this high asv on the silver helms was partly to thank, leading me to wanna keep the unit...

Basically it was a mexicn stand off in the middle, he was trying a less in your face tactic and also wary of the PG and SM in the middle. I used my eagles well for redirect and anti chffed him with reavers so my bolt throwers were free to shoot. Then on the right flank he had some knights and the chimera moving up. I chaffed his nights to buy me a turn, set their overrun path so they cant hit my SHELMS and reformed them so next turn they can charge his knight unit. But i didnt see he flying charge with the chimera!

Turns out the helms lost by alot but were steadfast with bsb. Then second round with no flaming they lost by 2 nd held (again steadfast i believe). Then third round i won by 1 and he held (musician turned that combat for me). Then 4th round i won by 2 and he fled and got away as i had to run into the knights...

I think without the high armour, i would have lost more spearmen and never won the combat like i did in the end, but on the flip side i would always have been steadfast, so probably never fled either...

I was saving my helms to bait his khorne warriors with the eagle and get a front with the PG and a flank with the helms, but he never took the bait and also kept setting up his line so that i couldnt do it. Which is good as it stlled him a couple of turns, but my HE mgic was no where near strong enough... So i might switch up lore for the next game...