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ewar
13-10-2013, 17:06
I had an instance in a game this weekend where my Arachnorok was allocating all of his attacks against a High Elf Loremaster with Charmed Shield. Obviously he wanted to bounce the venom surge on a 2+, but how do you decide which order an individual models attacks are made at a single initiative step? I obviously didn't want the venom surge to be the first hit and as it was my turn thought it should be me who decided what order they go in.

We couldn't find anything specific on it, but I had assumed it would be up to the player who's turn it was (my opponent disagreed and we diced it).

Anyone got a more specific reference?

thanks,
Ed

theunwantedbeing
13-10-2013, 17:21
Use the most important rule.

It doesn't appear to be covered in the rules anywhere.

warplock
13-10-2013, 18:49
When you rolled off, presumably you were rolling to see whether you get to choose, or he does. If it was your turn, why would he think he gets to choose which order your model attacks in? I can understand him not agreeing that you should get to choose (since it isn't covered in the rules anywhere) but then by the same logic he should realise he doesn't get to choose either (and therefore you would have to do some sort of randomisation or something). Personally I agree that since it's your turn, you should be able to decide.

leopard
13-10-2013, 19:49
Thought it was stated somewhere that the player whos turn it is, decides issues of timing, BRB, P10, 'sequencing' seems to cover it. When you attack and have a range of different attacks at the same Initiative step this lends weight to it being the attacker who decides in what order to make such attacks.

Ramius4
13-10-2013, 19:54
Thought it was stated somewhere that the player whos turn it is, decides issues of timing, BRB, P10, 'sequencing' seems to cover it. When you attack and have a range of different attacks at the same Initiative step this lends weight to it being the attacker who decides in what order to make such attacks.

Agreed. It's one of those somewhat grey areas in the rules. In most of those situations, the rulebook states several times "the person whose turn it is decides".

ewar
13-10-2013, 20:57
When you rolled off, presumably you were rolling to see whether you get to choose, or he does. If it was your turn, why would he think he gets to choose which order your model attacks in? I can understand him not agreeing that you should get to choose (since it isn't covered in the rules anywhere) but then by the same logic he should realise he doesn't get to choose either (and therefore you would have to do some sort of randomisation or something). Personally I agree that since it's your turn, you should be able to decide.

No, we diced off for randomise or I choose, and it came up randomise.

I agree normally it is the active players choice, but then again it does normally say that specifically. I'm not sure that p10 covers this instance explicitly, but it's the closest to it.

Malagor
13-10-2013, 21:48
Where I play it's the attacker that decides and no one has questioned that.

FatTrucker
13-10-2013, 22:44
Where they happen at the same initiative its the owning players choice in the same way you choose which order to fight multiple different combats.

Why would you randomise or roll off?

vorthrax
14-10-2013, 02:46
I believe it is widely accepted that, in cases where the rules do not specify how to deal with timing issues, the controlling player (the one whose turn it is) chooses the order. However, I am not aware of any standing rule dictating that.

jarbo
17-10-2013, 02:29
I would have ruled it as a randomization. The first hit gets bounced off on a 2+, no way to know which attack that is (assuming more than 1 hit). If you rolled two regular hits and one venom surge, then a 1-4 a regular is first a 5-6 it was the venom.

SilasOfTheLambs
27-10-2013, 23:07
The rule about 'active player chooses' is an answer to several FAQ about things like this. It can be applied in many situations, but that is house ruling (which should be fine if both players are nondouches). However, it is tempting to misapply it. For example, attacks at asf with flaming cannot cancel regen for other nonflaming asf attacks. Not a matter of choice, so active player irrelevant.

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N1AK
28-10-2013, 10:19
The rule about 'active player chooses' is an answer to several FAQ about things like this. It can be applied in many situations, but that is house ruling (which should be fine if both players are nondouches). However, it is tempting to misapply it. For example, attacks at asf with flaming cannot cancel regen for other nonflaming asf attacks. Not a matter of choice, so active player irrelevant.

I'd go with randomise for pretty much this reason. Obviously you can roll the attacks in whatever order you want however they all hit at exactly the same time regardless of the order the dice are rolled in, that's why if the model only had 1 wound in a challenge and you wound with 3 attacks they all apply, and why multiple models at the same initiative step can all attack a target even if the first model 'killed the target' with their attacks.

Ghorros Ghorrosson
28-10-2013, 17:01
If you're dividing attacks from a single model the groups I play in say that you have to announce how you divide them before you roll to hit. You can't roll some, then roll some more if you miss at the same target.

SteveW
29-10-2013, 05:23
I roll all attacks in initiative order. When attacking with my Arach, I take out 7 blue dice and one green one and roll them together. Nobody ever got confused as to which one was the venom surge and no arguments ever arose from it.

As for what order they happen in, no matter what order you roll them, they all happen at initiative 4... together.

furrie
29-10-2013, 09:33
I roll all attacks in initiative order. When attacking with my Arach, I take out 7 blue dice and one green one and roll them together. Nobody ever got confused as to which one was the venom surge and no arguments ever arose from it.

As for what order they happen in, no matter what order you roll them, they all happen at initiative 4... together.

And that is the problem, because for the charmed shield you need to know which one is first.

SteveW
29-10-2013, 18:10
And that is the problem, because for the charmed shield you need to know which one is first. they are all first, so the wielder of the charmed shield should get to choose.

yeknoMehT
29-10-2013, 19:33
they are all first, so the wielder of the charmed shield should get to choose.

Why? Is there actually anything that links those two statements together?

SteveW
29-10-2013, 20:07
I cannot seem to find where it says the controlling player getting to decide on things like this. It might be an older addition or I might be remembering it from something else.

The way I see it is. You roll your 8 attacks, 7 regular and 1 venom surge clearly marked. You then remove the one's that miss and he would choose what one that he gets a 2+ save against, then roll to wound and such as normal.

N1AK
30-10-2013, 10:49
I cannot seem to find where it says the controlling player getting to decide on things like this. It might be an older addition or I might be remembering it from something else.

The way I see it is. You roll your 8 attacks, 7 regular and 1 venom surge clearly marked. You then remove the one's that miss and he would choose what one that he gets a 2+ save against, then roll to wound and such as normal.

There is nothing in the rules to support that way of doing it.

All the attacks happen at the same time, the rules on combat are very clear about attacks in the same initiative step being simultaneous. If the charmed shield is activated by a group of simultaneous attacks then as no one attack is first it must be decided by randomising. Otherwise you'd end up with players wanting to roll all attacks together when it is their turn so that they could choose which attack is first then rolling each attack separately in their opponents turn so that the opponent would have to accept the first wounding roll

Spiney Norman
31-10-2013, 12:37
Where they happen at the same initiative its the owning players choice in the same way you choose which order to fight multiple different combats.

Why would you randomise or roll off?

In terms of when you actually roll the dice that is incorrect. By RAW the rules for venom surge require you to roll the VS dice separately, which must mean either before or after its other attacks. Since the shield only works against one attack the order they aree made clearly is important.

You might be able to swing it through on the "your turn, your choice" rule, but in all seriousness I don't really see why your opponent should in any way expect to be able to dictate the order in which you throw dice for your model's attacks even if it was his turn.

Randomising is probably the most 'user-friendly' way to deal with it.

SteveW
31-10-2013, 18:01
There is nothing in the rules to support that way of doing it.

All the attacks happen at the same time, the rules on combat are very clear about attacks in the same initiative step being simultaneous. If the charmed shield is activated by a group of simultaneous attacks then as no one attack is first it must be decided by randomising. Otherwise you'd end up with players wanting to roll all attacks together when it is their turn so that they could choose which attack is first then rolling each attack separately in their opponents turn so that the opponent would have to accept the first wounding roll

You just reiterated what I wrote about the order of attacks but said I was wrong...

I do see your point though about randomizing the charmed shields effect, after some thought on it, this seems to be the more fair way of playing it.

SilasOfTheLambs
04-11-2013, 15:59
To answer one previous question, the "active player chooses" rule comes from some FAQ's dealing with specific situations. For example, the dwarf book has an armor rune that says that nothing can ever hit the dwarf at higher than s5. However, the old dark elf book had a weapon that said that nothing could ever modify its strength to less than 6. They both contained the text "regardless of other magic items" or similar meaning that each one overrode the other. The FAQ said that the active player would decide which effect would proc (meaning that the dwarf lord would be hit on his turn at s5 and on the opponent's turn at s6).

That's the only one I remember off the top of my head, but some of the others dealt with items or rules that contained text like "at the beginning of the combat phase" but didn't actually specify which order they would happen in.

This, however, isn't the situation with attacks. Attacks have a defined sequence specified by Intiative order plus certain modifiers (ASL, ASF, etc), as well as a ruleset to deal with situations where those values are equal (simultaneous attacks). In my view, none of the attacks is the first one- they all happen at exactly the same time- and so the RAW way to do this would be to simply have the charmed shield wait until something hits the bearer only once (or, even worse, to burn out the charmed shield and never get to use the effect because there is no "first hit"). That, however, is silly, and the common sense approach is the randomizing one.