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Morhgoz
14-10-2013, 18:56
Hi,


I have always been big fan of lizarmen monsterlists since last book came. New edition did bit damper 7t edition "big dinosaurbash" some way, but ow are things now with new list..?

Because games in my area are about 2000-4000+, I just thinked that monsterlist would be just the thing again...

I was planning list of 3000 pts with Teneauin on ancient w/ all upgrades, scar on carno, 2 bastilodons with solar engines, 2 stegadons, ancient stegadon and 2 troglodons with D.rods + some other charaters and units. What you think?

Also, I would like to know how would you build your big scary monster list with lizardmen...

Kayosiv
16-10-2013, 00:09
I hate to be a downer because I started Lizardmen so I could field an army full of awesome dinosaurs, but almost of our monstrous dinosaurs are bad. Ancient stegadons are the exception and are very solid. They have great staying power at toughness 6 and a 3+ armor save and stubborn. Their ranged weapons on top are not fantastic but a nice option. Regular stegadons are much worse. Their ranged weapon is poor, their strength 5 and 4+ scaly skin is SIGNIFICANTLY worse than the ancient stegedon for only 15 points less. To be truly costed correctly, a regular stegadon should cost less than 200 points. As is, the huge gains in survivability and damage output that an ancient stegadon gains for a mere 15 points make the regular stegadon look and perform poor in comparison.

Carnosaurs are terrible. I'd say they were the worst monsters in the game but Beastmen are stuck with those. They have bad stats in every category with the exception of speed and strength. Being ridden is bad. Frenzy is bad. Mediocre toughness and wounds is bad when combined with a high price, low weaponskill, and low initiative. Making them work is extremely difficult.

Troglodons are even worse than caronsaurs. Barely cheaper, it has even less combat potential than the carnosaur and has special rules that don't do much of anything. 3 extra attacks on average to some saurus once per game and a bad shooting attack. It's nice that it isn't a ridden monster, but it doesn't matter because it's average offensive output won't beat most ranked units with full command. It's a mosnter that can't fight, can't survive, can't shoot, and has special rules that are bad. It has no redeeming features and costs almost as much as a stegadon.

Bastilodons are bad. If you thought the troglodon was a wimp, be prepared for the awesome power of the bastilodon's 2 strength 4 attacks. It does have a strength 10 attack, which is a nice bonus, or would be, if it was capable of doing any other damage. It is the only strength 4 monster in the game and yet is the same size as a stegadon? Weird. It also only has 4 wounds and toughness 5. The 2+ armor save is certainly nice, but it has less offensive potential than a single rank of saursu warriors, who cost 1/3 the price. Both versions have poor special rules because jungle swarms are poor and you could just buy more of them instead of investing in a bastilodon and its shooting attack lacks poison(for no reason). The solar engine is decent, but the initiative bonus doesn't stack (for no reason) and bound spells will rarely be as effective as just letting your Slann cast things with his bonus of +4. Ultimately, the monster doesn't have the offensive potential to win combats on its own or support. The options for the back of the bastilodon aren't worth the points either.

Putting Teneauin on an ancient is a death sentence, because once again, the rules for ridden monsters are a gigantic hindrance by making them easier to target and kill at range and in close combat, and easier to nullify the monster through challenges.

The best "monster" list would probably be 2 ancient stegadons with a skink chief riding an ancient stegadon (not a priest, because you actually care if a priest dies).

Include a bastilidon with a solar engine because you might get lucky and get a very high strength shooting attack out of it.

Ignore all other monsters as they are all at the extreme bottom of the totem pole.

Sadness. If anyone can disagree with me with legitimate points, please do. I would love to field an army filled with awesome dinosaurs and actually have a chance at winning. I just don't see how I can when most of them cost 25% too much for what they do on the field.

MOMUS
16-10-2013, 16:14
This is all pretty much correct

The carnosaur does have some mileage only due to being able to have a scarvet on, the trig is an awesome mini and has the worst rules of a monster ever written. The bastiladon is all kinds of suck.

On the way back from a tournament me and my team mates played guess the lizardmen monster stats, they laughed all the way home :(

Captain Collius
16-10-2013, 17:20
Sadly Kayosiv is mostly correct. I do feel a Stegadon heavy list can work for some fun games but it is easy to defeat if they have warmachines Scar-vet-Carnosaurs work pretty well.

Personally i would run two beasts skink priests (they hide they are small and people ignore them) An Oldblood on a tooled out carnosaur and two Engine of the gods stegs. Then mix in other stegadons core and bastilidons to taste. It won't win tournaments but it is usually fun.

havik110
17-10-2013, 15:28
i think what many people here are failing to realize is that you have to support our monsters with magic in order for them to be effective...now i know people dont want to admit it but hand of glory makes our carnosaurs extremely good...(face it u were taking a slann anyways)...want it to be even better, might as well throw in a solar engine to get its I up once more...

are they as "good" as a frost phoenix? no, but they effed up that thing for its points (like imp guard valk cheap)

I am hoping the book was designed with 9th in mind, and although i dont want to go back to 7ths monster mash only lists, i would like them to be more viable...

overall I think the book is very well balanced

Captain Collius
17-10-2013, 16:12
i think what many people here are failing to realize is that you have to support our monsters with magic in order for them to be effective...now i know people dont want to admit it but hand of glory makes our carnosaurs extremely good...(face it u were taking a slann anyways)...want it to be even better, might as well throw in a solar engine to get its I up once more...

are they as "good" as a frost phoenix? no, but they effed up that thing for its points (like imp guard valk cheap)

I am hoping the book was designed with 9th in mind, and although i dont want to go back to 7ths monster mash only lists, i would like them to be more viable...

overall I think the book is very well balanced

Well yeah maguical support is great and in the old book you had a thematic option in Mazdmundi who was a Slann riding a stegadon. Whereas now you need a 400 pt slaan and likely a 400pt bunker to prtoect him.

Also The Frost phoenix has 4 attacks total unless it charges standard infantry it can't do much to help.

Timathius
17-10-2013, 16:27
Well yeah maguical support is great and in the old book you had a thematic option in Mazdmundi who was a Slann riding a stegadon. Whereas now you need a 400 pt slaan and likely a 400pt bunker to prtoect him.

Also The Frost phoenix has 4 attacks total unless it charges standard infantry it can't do much to help.

Except the whole ASL thing... Which is awesome

gd09garett
17-10-2013, 16:56
Except the whole ASL thing... Which is awesome
Re: the frost phoenix and HEs, the ASL almost doesn't matter with elves having ASF and high I anyway, but the -1 str is awesome in my experience. Though the ASL helps the phoenix itself, but are we not talking about it as support.

Captain Collius
17-10-2013, 17:43
Yeah it is pretty cool. But -1S is Sooooo much better.

Kayosiv
17-10-2013, 20:36
i think what many people here are failing to realize is that you have to support our monsters with magic in order for them to be effective...now i know people dont want to admit it but hand of glory makes our carnosaurs extremely good...

You know what else is good with magic support? Everything.

I want Carnosaurs to work very badly. Carnosaurs are awesome. The model, concept, and theme are so great. The execution is not awesome. Hitting on 3's and being hit on 4's with your Carnosaur is great. +1 to hit and -1 to be hit is nice. Temple Guard with Wildform on them are still going to do more damage though, because magic is great on pretty much all things. Magic is not "the secret" when it comes to lizardmen monsters. Magic is the secret to winning the game with everything that exists because magic is so powerful. It can certainly help our monsters, but don't pretend like the monsters suddenly have more synergy with it than anything else.

godswearhats
18-10-2013, 00:17
@Kayosiv: do you own any carnosaurs?

Kayosiv
18-10-2013, 01:36
Every lizardman player owns a carnosaur, or at least is always thinking about whether they should purchase one. It just doesn't get used after it fails to do anything multiple games in a row as you desperately try to make it work.

Moss
18-10-2013, 02:00
You know what else is good with magic support? Everything.
...
It can certainly help our monsters, but don't pretend like the monsters suddenly have more synergy with it than anything else.

Exactly. If I'm have to choose between using my power dice to make my Carnosaur hit on a 3+ or making my TG hit on a 3+, I'm going to choose my TG every time.

Wesser
18-10-2013, 06:52
I think it is good that this is so.

I fully realise the LM & DE players may think it is pretty cool to do a monster mash, but I'm finding it greatly uninteresting to play against.

My Empire & VC armies take monsters apart with ease leading to a boring game for the monster player and my woodie struggle with them leading to a boring game for me..

Overdoing monsters (which means 4+ monsters imo) may sound cool and look cool but as with any gimmick army it probably ain't gonna be hella fun to play.

The good thing about the LM monsters is that the Bastilodon may seem poor, but it's cheap and sturdy, so you can take one "just because". The Ancient Stegadon is good, but quite expensive and a rare choice. If LM players think that taking lots of monsters is a poor choice I'm clapping :)

Kayosiv
18-10-2013, 09:44
I don't really want to take a ton of monsters. I would just be nice if I had the troglodon, stegadon, bastilodon, and carnosaur in my collection to choose from. I would include 2 or so of them in a list and could try out different things, maybe using 1 or 3 in extreme circumstances.

Now, I use 2 ancient stegadons, because they are the only monster that I've gotten to consistenly work for me. That makes for boring list building. I'm not mad because my army can't have 6 giant dinosaurs in it and be competative. I'm stuck with the same 1 though, and that sucks.

Wesser
18-10-2013, 09:59
I don't really want to take a ton of monsters. I would just be nice if I had the troglodon, stegadon, bastilodon, and carnosaur in my collection to choose from. I would include 2 or so of them in a list and could try out different things, maybe using 1 or 3 in extreme circumstances.

Now, I use 2 ancient stegadons, because they are the only monster that I've gotten to consistenly work for me. That makes for boring list building. I'm not mad because my army can't have 6 giant dinosaurs in it and be competative. I'm stuck with the same 1 though, and that sucks.

Ah well that I can get sympathetic about.

Now the Carnosaur is problematic because you basically give up on fielding a slann in most games, but the rest is fieldable if perhaps a bit sub-par.

We all have our "I want this to work" units. I keep fielding Goldswords despite their inevitably poor performance for instance.

It can get annoying when you look at what DE got I realise, but it aint as bad as you think.

I'd like to think of the Troglodon/Basilodon the same way as I do the Corpse Cart.

It is slow (well the Troglodon isn't), it can't fight well, and it's buff is mediocre. But most of my gaming group is starting to see the Cart as the most OP thing in the whole VC book..

The trick of course is to not commit your support monsters when you don't have to. Hold them back and if the enemy shoots them...well something was gonna get shot right? Unleashing those underrated buffs/bound spells at the correct time and making a support charge (either flank or cornering) have won more combats for me than I can count.

People may think the buff/combat potential of those two monsters weak, but if you can keep them in your battleline instead of getting them isolated and charged.... when they start to do well in game after game after game.. well you'll see

Captain Collius
18-10-2013, 17:48
Ah well that I can get sympathetic about.

Now the Carnosaur is problematic because you basically give up on fielding a slann in most games, but the rest is fieldable if perhaps a bit sub-par.

We all have our "I want this to work" units. I keep fielding Goldswords despite their inevitably poor performance for instance.

It can get annoying when you look at what DE got I realise, but it aint as bad as you think.

I'd like to think of the Troglodon/Basilodon the same way as I do the Corpse Cart.

It is slow (well the Troglodon isn't), it can't fight well, and it's buff is mediocre. But most of my gaming group is starting to see the Cart as the most OP thing in the whole VC book..

The trick of course is to not commit your support monsters when you don't have to. Hold them back and if the enemy shoots them...well something was gonna get shot right? Unleashing those underrated buffs/bound spells at the correct time and making a support charge (either flank or cornering) have won more combats for me than I can count.

People may think the buff/combat potential of those two monsters weak, but if you can keep them in your battleline instead of getting them isolated and charged.... when they start to do well in game after game after game.. well you'll see

Agreed my bastilidon actually got back his points last game with his bound spell and combat. It is possible to make them work but they are so dependent on combo work that they become less useful than the 250 pt ancient steg who is also a hell of a monster killer.

Wesser
20-10-2013, 16:17
Agreed my bastilidon actually got back his points last game with his bound spell and combat. It is possible to make them work but they are so dependent on combo work that they become less useful than the 250 pt ancient steg who is also a hell of a monster killer.

Well that applies to many units

For instance White Lions and Swordmasters are very similar, but conventionally White Lions is the better choice. Does that make swordmasters weak?

It is a faith thing really. We all know that painted models are more favoured by the dice gods, that every player have a unit that they always seem to roll absurdly good dice for etc. A Bastilodon may be worse than a Stegadon, but if it's fun to use something else then it ain't really that damagingly bad issit?

Captain Collius
21-10-2013, 16:09
Well that applies to many units

For instance White Lions and Swordmasters are very similar, but conventionally White Lions is the better choice. Does that make swordmasters weak?

It is a faith thing really. We all know that painted models are more favoured by the dice gods, that every player have a unit that they always seem to roll absurdly good dice for etc. A Bastilodon may be worse than a Stegadon, but if it's fun to use something else then it ain't really that damagingly bad issit?

True

My point is simply In that list type you have very few drops using more stegs as the work better gives you a better chance in the game however this should in no way preclude you from taking what you want. just understand that it is hard to Win with a stegadon list taking even worse monsters makes it even harder.

Faith doesn't raise the amount of attacks a monster has. It does however in increase number of thunderstomps.