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Entreri Bloodletter
15-10-2013, 20:40
Warmachines have Initiative 0, that is why they auto die to spells like Pit of Shades, this being the case does this mean the Medusa auto wounds when shooting against warmachines? (Substituting its T7 for Initiative 0)

I don't see why this shouldn't be the case, there would be no reason to use the crew's initiative vs shooting attacks.

Seems like this would make Medusa quite good against warmachines, not that we need much help in that department but you never know.

herohammer
16-10-2013, 04:34
GW have frustratingly never made a ruling on this question which has been around since the TK army book came out with the sepulchral stalkers. All TK players that I know roll to wound against the crew's I.

Maybe now that 2 units face this problem we will finally get a ruling...

Roshan
16-10-2013, 08:02
GW have frustratingly never made a ruling on this question which has been around since the TK army book came out with the sepulchral stalkers. All TK players that I know roll to wound against the crew's I.

Maybe now that 2 units face this problem we will finally get a ruling...

There is a slight difference - war machines auto fail stat tests apart from Toughness - the TK stalker actually does say that it cant hurt models without an Initative Value, therefore cant hurt artillery as its Initative "-". I would cite this as the nearest example, so therefore the medusa cant, but thats my opinion and not to say that it wont be the opposite of logical...this is afterall GW :)

furrie
16-10-2013, 08:38
There is a slight difference - war machines auto fail stat tests apart from Toughness - the TK stalker actually does say that it cant hurt models without an Initative Value, therefore cant hurt artillery as its Initative "-". I would cite this as the nearest example, so therefore the medusa cant, but thats my opinion and not to say that it wont be the opposite of logical...this is afterall GW :)
If the medusa has the same rule, then yes. Otherwise, i'm not sure.

Montegue
16-10-2013, 18:53
Does the medusa cause a hit on a failed init test?

Rakariel
16-10-2013, 18:58
The medusas rule says "substitute the models T for its Ini", if the Ini value of the model is - it doesn`t have a value therefore the Medusa autowounds. There is nothing in the medusas rules that says it can`t hurt models that don`t have an Ini value. The only thing that I could accept is that you use the Crews Ini instead. In all honesty however I would say you wound automatically as using the crews Ini would only be the case if the attack was a characteristics test (you use the highest stat the model has), which it isn`t. You substitute the models T for its Ini, the model is the warmachine, therefore you autowound. My 2 cents.

Shrapnels
17-10-2013, 11:20
But due to the current rules, the crewmembers are only wound counters, which would imply you wouldn't use their initiative

babyberg31
17-10-2013, 12:25
Anyway, with Ld2 and frenzy, the meduse will be attacking the crewman in CC, not shoothing at them. ;) (except is a general is near by)

Rakariel
17-10-2013, 12:30
Anyway, with Ld2 and frenzy, the meduse will be attacking the crewman in CC, not shoothing at them. ;) (except is a general is near by)
Thats true. But then again if it wasn`t like that the Medusa would be far too good, there has to be a downside after all.

Mr_Rose
17-10-2013, 13:28
Anyway, with Ld2 and frenzy, the meduse will be attacking the crewman in CC, not shoothing at them. ;) (except is a general is near by)

The shrine version has exactly the same attack, except it's not frenzied and is Leadership 8… oh and a bunch of other stuff too… for nearly twice the price.

Entreri Bloodletter
17-10-2013, 17:42
So the consensus is that you do in fact use the machines Initiative of 0 and not the crew members? However, it will not auto-wound because 1's always fail, as covered in the BRB and FAQ.

Granted it is not the best thing in the world to take out warmachines but definitely a viable target of opportunity.

Rakariel
17-10-2013, 19:25
However, it will not auto-wound because 1's always fail, as covered in the BRB and FAQ.
You are right there I think, 1s always fail.
While I think the medusas can be used against warmachines I don`t think they should be used for that. They need to be inside the generals Ld bubble and if you don`t go for a close combat general it won`t be of much use. On top of it Medusas sport very low T values and no armor, they will get shot to bits in no time. So no, frontline is not their strength. I do however think they are very valid against enemy monsters as wounding those is easy as hell with the medusas shooting attack. Terrorgheist, Sphinxes, Stegs, Chimeras, Chaos Trolls, Hellcannon, Stank, Soulgrinder etc. all of those have pretty high toughness and some do sport good armor, a Medusa will wound most of them on a 2+ with no armor save. The shooting of two Medusas can be pretty devastating against most of those units. Imagine a Stank which gets wounded on a 2+ and has no armor. On average that should be 8 shots hitting on 4s and wounding on 2s, thats on average 3- 5 wounds. Go figure ;)


The shrine version has exactly the same attack, except it's not frenzied and is Leadership 8… oh and a bunch of other stuff too… for nearly twice the price.
The shrine might not be frenzied and higher Ld, its also a large target that can be singled out and killed with one cannonball. A sole medusa is far less points and more diffiicult to hit. If you know you are going against armies that don`t have cannons or low LD (like LM) the shrine is okay but you could also take a chariot aswell which is far cheaper and actually better in close combat.

sulla
18-10-2013, 21:17
The shrine might not be frenzied and higher Ld, its also a large target that can be singled out and killed with one cannonball. A sole medusa is far less points and more diffiicult to hit. If you know you are going against armies that don`t have cannons or low LD (like LM) the shrine is okay but you could also take a chariot aswell which is far cheaper and actually better in close combat.I think I probably see it the opposite way to you. To me, the medusa is too fragile and really only works in specific builds (mostly 18" ld ones). The shrine is less cost than 2 medusae but can ride in a unit to both boost the unit's damage output and reduce the number of fragile elves in combat. If you don't want to play shadow magic and the consequent multi attack troops, or if you want to run spears or swords for theme, I think a bloodwrack shrine is a very good addition to a unit. Yes, it's vulnerable to cannons, but no moreso than manticores, dragons, hydra, kharyb,

The medusa, on the other hand, is a naked ogre with a shooting attack that is probably good for a wound or possibly 2 tops. And needs to be in the ld bubble at the same time as being in 12" of an unengaged, low I opponent.

Rakariel
19-10-2013, 11:58
I think I probably see it the opposite way to you. To me, the medusa is too fragile and really only works in specific builds (mostly 18" ld ones). The shrine is less cost than 2 medusae but can ride in a unit to both boost the unit's damage output and reduce the number of fragile elves in combat. If you don't want to play shadow magic and the consequent multi attack troops, or if you want to run spears or swords for theme, I think a bloodwrack shrine is a very good addition to a unit. Yes, it's vulnerable to cannons, but no moreso than manticores, dragons, hydra, kharyb,

The medusa, on the other hand, is a naked ogre with a shooting attack that is probably good for a wound or possibly 2 tops. And needs to be in the ld bubble at the same time as being in 12" of an unengaged, low I opponent.

I agree with you, the shrine can be used the way you describe it and I like it.

The medusa however, well I can only say she will be in most of my lists from now on. Yes shes damn fragile, but man I cannot describe how much use I got out of her in all the games I have used one (or two) of them. Just had a game against LM again. I had the medusas put near the general (sorc inside 20 XBows) to keep them in check. My opponent was so "afraid" what the medusas can do to him (because in two previous games I shot his monsters down as soon as they came in range) he didn`t charge with them till the late game. Thats why I keep on saying, the medusa is not good against most things, but shes very good against enemy monsters because they almost always sport low Ini values. I can only say I had five games so far and in all games apart from one the medusas did shoot off the big monsters. With BF5 she will hit mostly on a 4+ and because of the Ini for T shenanigans she will wound most monsters (Chimera, Stank, Sphinxes etc.) on a 2+. Thats very deffective for such a cheap model. Last game the Medusas did not shoot off the steg but then again he didn`t commit it to combat neither. If its just for the psychological effect they cause, the medusa is already worth it in my book. On top of it they can be used to shoot of normal cav aswell.

What I do agree on with you is however, that the setup has to be correct. Just throwing a medusa into a list won`t do any good. She needs the support of the generals Ld and has to be setup so she can counter oppising monsters (or cav). Otherwise she will be pretty useless.

herohammer
19-10-2013, 19:16
Think this thread has gone off topic from rules. I think people solved this pretty well until we get an FAQ. The medusa is different from the stalkers because it doesn't have the caveat that it cannot wound things with no initiative. Given that the stalkers probably can't kill warmachines after all making them really bad but then again that is TK for you...

RejjeN
20-10-2013, 19:59
Think this thread has gone off topic from rules. I think people solved this pretty well until we get an FAQ. The medusa is different from the stalkers because it doesn't have the caveat that it cannot wound things with no initiative. Given that the stalkers probably can't kill warmachines after all making them really bad but then again that is TK for you...
Stalkers also have a caveat that says the target uses the highest Initiative on the model/unit (forgot which), which is why it's interpreted to use the crews initiative since while the crew models are just markers, they are still part of the warmachine profile.

Dunno if it was answered, but the reason warmachines auto-fail initiative tests isn't because of their stat of "-", it's because their rules state they auto-fail all char tests except toughness (which they auto-pass).

alaztech
21-10-2013, 15:06
Hi
Because War Machines have a split profile, aren't you always suppose to use the crew's Movement, Weapon Skill, Ballistic Skill, Strength, Initiative, Attacks, and Leadership? If so, then wouldn't you substitue the Toughness of the War Machine with the Initiative of the crew?

Rakariel
21-10-2013, 15:23
Hi
Because War Machines have a split profile, aren't you always suppose to use the crew's Movement, Weapon Skill, Ballistic Skill, Strength, Initiative, Attacks, and Leadership? If so, then wouldn't you substitue the Toughness of the War Machine with the Initiative of the crew?
No. As has been mentioned a few times already the Medusas shooting rule does not say "when using the gaze....use the highest value available" neither is the shooting attack a characteristics test which would imply using the highest value available. It says "substitute the models T for its Ini", the model is the warmachine not the crew. Same goes for monsters that have a crew (e.g. Warsphinx). You are shooting the model which is the monster itself. In cases where you have to roll what you are actually hitting (ridden monster) you would have to see who you are hitting first (1-4 monster, 5-6 rider) and then use the respective Ini and T value respectively.

alaztech
21-10-2013, 15:55
Thanks for clarifing. Since the MODELs T is substitued for Ini, when the troughness of the MODEL is reduced to 0 or less through magic or a special rule (where this situation seems to fall) it is removed from play....auto kill! Wow. if that's true, that's pretty powerful.

RejjeN
21-10-2013, 20:06
Thanks for clarifing. Since the MODELs T is substitued for Ini, when the troughness of the MODEL is reduced to 0 or less through magic or a special rule (where this situation seems to fall) it is removed from play....auto kill! Wow. if that's true, that's pretty powerful.
I'm lost here... Substituting Initiative for Toughness doesn't mean Initiative BECOMES the models Toughness, you just use that value for the action itself.

Rakariel
21-10-2013, 20:58
I'm lost here... Substituting Initiative for Toughness doesn't mean Initiative BECOMES the models Toughness, you just use that value for the action itself.
You are correct. You use the Ini instead of the T value to determine what roll you need to put a wound on the target. As the Ini of most monsters is on average two you need a 2+ to wound due to the S4 shooting attack the medusa has.