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izmerul
17-10-2013, 10:43
Wouldn't it be nice if the human races of Warhammer were assembled in one book?

Here's my thinking ... There's men all over the old world, The Empire, Bretonnia, Estalia, Tilea, Kislev. And then all the other places we're not too familiar with that probably do as well (Cathay, Ind, Nippon and potentially much more ...). Right now the Empire is a more steam-punk technologically advanced race with all the options (wizzards, flying beasts, cavalry, gun-powder, elite units, specialized troops... ) while Bretonnia is an Arthurian race that is pretty much stuck in the past and only has heraldry and some magic.

Why not have a core Human book with "ancient" troop types that are the common core for all human armies, and then have the general (you) chose what kind of civilization he is leading by selecting different levels of development in different areas.

Ex:

Engineering, Lvl 1 gives access to basic siege weapons and crossbows. Lvl 2 researches powder weapons

Animal Husbandry, Lvl 1 Heavy cavalry and chariots. Lvl 2 Light Cavalry and Mammoth cavalry (like the mumak but could be anything depending on fluff)

Military School, Lvl 1 Pikes and Skirmisher, Lvl 2 Infiltrators etc.

Then can add more things to choose from like Levels in Warrior code, Religion, Magic, Beastmasters, Alchemy all giving access to a different type of unit and or character.




The point would be to have access to everything but only be able to choose SOME of it to keep it balanced. If you spend all your points on engineering and animal husbandry you probably wont have enough left to boost your magics Etc.

Just a thought, let me know what you think.

Payomeke
17-10-2013, 10:47
I like so much the idea, sounds good enough for me but GW doesn't have the talent to do it correctly.

Kakapo42
17-10-2013, 11:21
I personally do not like it. First off I feel it adds a layer of needless complexity, which is never good, but more importantly I feel it would set a dangerous precedent. After all, if you're grouping all the human factions together, why not all the Elves as well? And then why not all the Chaos factions? Eventually you'd end up with every single faction crammed into one book, and we'd be back to how it was in 1st- 3rd edition (though I imagine there are a number of people who would probably quite like to see that happen). Not to mention that with all the different background and model galleries for all the myriad human factions, on top of all the unit entries, any such book would probably weigh a ton (and cost an an arm and a leg to boot).

No, I'll stick with the current Army Book system thanks all the same. Sure, it isn't perfect, it has it's downsides, but it gives the different factions all room to breathe. It lets each and every one be it's own unique entity. Call me a whining individual who cares only for their special snowflake if you must, but I like that I can get an entire book just for my own faction. It makes me feel special. And I'd like to see others feel special the same way too. :angel:

Wouldn't mind seeing an Araby army for Warhammer though (it even has a built-in centrepiece with the Elephants), but even then it's not something I'd demand the creation of.

izmerul
17-10-2013, 12:01
why not all the Elves as well? And then why not all the Chaos factions? Eventually you'd end up with every single faction crammed into one book, and we'd be back to how it was in 1st- 3rd edition (though I imagine there are a number of people who would probably quite like to see that happen). Not to mention that with all the different background and model galleries for all the myriad human factions, on top of all the unit entries, any such book would probably weigh a ton (and cost an an arm and a leg to boot).

I imagine a number of people would like that actually, I have fond memories of the mixed Chaos armies and I feel Beast-men look a little bit lonely all by themselves on the battlefield ... and I guess having read Tolkien I also always thought that "Dark" Elves should be the same as the other Elves, just evil. I'm not saying having them all separated is a bad thing and would not want to take away what we currently have.

I guess I just prefer to have a choice to modulate and give my force a unique character instead of being forced into a certain type of 'human' or 'elf' by a restrictive army book. More imagination?

Ramius4
17-10-2013, 12:45
I don't like the idea.

izmerul
17-10-2013, 13:06
I don't like the idea.

Fair enough, any particular reason why?

Ramius4
17-10-2013, 13:24
Fair enough, any particular reason why?

Partly because whenever I've seen a system that gives the player the chance to modify the contents of his own army list and the way it functions, it's horrible for game balance. It usually leads to only one or two options being chosen and the rest ignored. Just imagine the common magic items list, but instead of it being magic items, it's an army book...

Also, why on earth would I want my Bretonnians or Empire to have to share a book? Seriously. You've given no compelling reason why this would actually be desirable to anyone who plays these armies.

In closing, I'll ask you a return question.

Why?

izmerul
17-10-2013, 13:58
Partly because whenever I've seen a system that gives the player the chance to modify the contents of his own army list and the way it functions, it's horrible for game balance. It usually leads to only one or two options being chosen and the rest ignored. Just imagine the common magic items list, but instead of it being magic items, it's an army book...

Also, why on earth would I want my Bretonnians or Empire to have to share a book? Seriously. You've given no compelling reason why this would actually be desirable to anyone who plays these armies.

In closing, I'll ask you a return question.

Why?


More freedom and room for imagination, what if you like the concept of a steam-punk human army but don't want to play the Germans? Granted you can convert your army to look like whatever you like and use the Empire rules.

Now a specific Bretonnian or Empire book does not have to disappear, it would stay there with it's own history, timeline, troops types and self sufficient army book. The Empire certainly deserves it, apparently Bretonnians don't create that much enthusiasm though. So I guess I'm suggesting a sourcebook for people interested in making human armies but don't like the Empire and Bretonnia ... loads of players would love to do Tilea, Arabia, Cathay, Estalia but the Empire and Bretonnia books just don't cover the kind of armies that they may have. I believe it could be balanced with leveling system with branches so that if certain choices are made (such as gun-powder just for the sake of an example) would take up most of your levels and prevent you from having access to the strongest wizzards or best warriors.


It usually leads to only one or two options being chosen and the rest ignored

I've been reading the threads about tournament armies and fantasy SPAM ... apparently that's already the case



EDIT: In short my "compelling reason why this would actually be desirable to anyone who plays these armies." is none, It's more for the potential "human" players that don't recognise themselves in Bret and Empire

Ramius4
17-10-2013, 14:21
I believe it could be balanced with leveling system with branches so that if certain choices are made (such as gun-powder just for the sake of an example) would take up most of your levels and prevent you from having access to the strongest wizzards or best warriors.

Did you play back when Chaos was a single army composed of Warriors, Beastmen and Daemons? There's more than one reason they split it into 3 books.

Or another example is the 40K Imperial Guard when they had army Doctrines? In theory, it's a fun concept. In practice it just doesn't.




I've been reading the threads about tournament armies and fantasy SPAM ... apparently that's already the case

That doesn't mean adding to balance issues that already exist is a good idea.

IcedCrow
17-10-2013, 14:40
My opinion is the more complicated, complex, convoluted a ruleset is, the less likely it will succeed. As such, I'm not a fan.

If you wish to play humans that are not empire or bretonnian you can either

1) use the empire or bretonnian book and counts-as (we have a guy that runs a cathay army using samaruai models using the empire rules)

or

2) write your own fan-dex and convince your friends to let you use it.

A universal human book is not something that I'd be on board with.

TheDungen
17-10-2013, 16:08
Sure as long as the same thing is done with the elves (one book for all three kinds) and dwarfs (one book for the two kinds).

loveless
17-10-2013, 16:46
Sure as long as the same thing is done with the elves (one book for all three kinds) and dwarfs (one book for the two kinds).

And Chaos (Warriors, Daemons, Beastmen) and Undead (both kinds).

...quick, someone figure out how to put Skaven and Lizardmen in the same book!

Wait, wait...I got it.

Warhammer Armies: Kingdoms of Men.
Warhammer Armies: Elven Kingdoms.
Warhammer Armies: Dwarf Holds.
Warhammer Armies: Realm of Chaos.
Warhammer Armies: Undead.
Warhammer Armies: Other.

Perfect.

:p

Charistoph
17-10-2013, 16:56
Nah, Beastmen aren't marked by Chaos any more, so the Goats, Lizards, and Rats can all be under the single Beastmen moniker now!

Tupinamba
17-10-2013, 17:05
I like the idea, precisely because itīd make it possible to field all the varied human armies one can imagine. However, precisely for this same reason I donīt think GW will ever do it, except if they were to triplicate their current model range.

I have a feeling the reason why Bretonia and Woodelves donīt get the same treatment as other factions is that they are generic enough for GWs competitors to sell their minis. Bretonia, for example, is easily proxied with Firestorm Games Crusader range. The same would go for any other faction you could make with historical miniatures. Thatīs also why I think GW is always upping the "moar" fantastic elements, such as Hurricanum, Demigryphs etc., which are all very specific warhammer units that you wonīt find in other common alternative ranges. Even common troops, such as halberdiers etc. are in heroic scale and have more extreme designs, making it more difficult to mix them with historical miniatures of the Renaiscence and 30. Years War.

Now, you can always do the count as, and I do it myself with my Rohirrim + Reaper for a Warrriors of Chaos army, but GW will always try to make this as difficult as possible, not easier.

By the way, Armies of Arcana has the exact opposite philosophy, probably because they basically donīt sell miniatures. The system is made so as to make it possible to use every miniature in any kind of faction you can imagine.

HereComesTomorrow
17-10-2013, 17:12
Don't like it.

1. Adds pointless complexity and more book keeping.
2. How do you balance it? Before the cries of "GW don't bother now", they take a stab at it at least. Do the level have points costs? How does that factor into the army list points? If not, is it it's own, separate list?
3. It would lead to the most min/maxed army lists of all time.
4. It actually detracts from the character of an army. How do you reconcile Cathayan Porcelain warriors , Tilean engineers, Estalian horsemen and Ind wizard in one army? Because that's what armies would look like.

Lastavenger
17-10-2013, 18:50
I have a feeling the reason why Bretonia and Woodelves donīt get the same treatment as other factions is that they are generic enough for GWs competitors to sell their minis. Bretonia, for example, is easily proxied with Firestorm Games Crusader range. They are ok if you want teens riding ponies.
180084
I think that proper way to do less popular armies is publishing normal armylist in WD. It would be good reason to buy because now, it is ad.

Tupinamba
17-10-2013, 19:04
They are ok if you want teens riding ponies.
180084
I think that proper way to do less popular armies is publishing normal armylist in WD. It would be good reason to buy because now, it is ad.

Having them side by side like that shows how you canīt mix them well with GW heroic scale minis, but if you only have historical minis, the army would look fine enough. LOTR are also on a smaller scale, but you can use them for count as too.

Anyway, Iīm not disputing the differences in the minis, as that is part of my argument that GW tries to differentiate itself the most it can to make it more difficult to use alternative minis. Be it by having a very clear IP/style, unique constructs (such as hurricanum or bloodwrack etc.) be it in scale, whatever. They wonīt release rules that make it "officially" possible to build your own araby or nippon armies using historical ranges.

As to the WD idea, I agree that itīd be a good way to bring more variety to the game.

izmerul
17-10-2013, 19:38
WD is probably the best way to address it ... would give me a reason to read it anyway

Bingo the Fun Monkey
17-10-2013, 19:44
Just make a different game: Age of Kingdoms the Multi-Era Tabletop Civ Game. I'd play the **** out of it.

izmerul
17-10-2013, 20:12
Just make a different game: Age of Kingdoms the Multi-Era Tabletop Civ Game. I'd play the **** out of it.

Heh, let you know first if I do ^^

Spiney Norman
17-10-2013, 23:02
Wouldn't it be nice if the human races of Warhammer were assembled in one book?

Here's my thinking ... There's men all over the old world, The Empire, Bretonnia, Estalia, Tilea, Kislev. And then all the other places we're not too familiar with that probably do as well (Cathay, Ind, Nippon and potentially much more ...). Right now the Empire is a more steam-punk technologically advanced race with all the options (wizzards, flying beasts, cavalry, gun-powder, elite units, specialized troops... ) while Bretonnia is an Arthurian race that is pretty much stuck in the past and only has heraldry and some magic.

Why not have a core Human book with "ancient" troop types that are the common core for all human armies, and then have the general (you) chose what kind of civilization he is leading by selecting different levels of development in different areas.

Ex:

Engineering, Lvl 1 gives access to basic siege weapons and crossbows. Lvl 2 researches powder weapons

Animal Husbandry, Lvl 1 Heavy cavalry and chariots. Lvl 2 Light Cavalry and Mammoth cavalry (like the mumak but could be anything depending on fluff)

Military School, Lvl 1 Pikes and Skirmisher, Lvl 2 Infiltrators etc.

Then can add more things to choose from like Levels in Warrior code, Religion, Magic, Beastmasters, Alchemy all giving access to a different type of unit and or character.




The point would be to have access to everything but only be able to choose SOME of it to keep it balanced. If you spend all your points on engineering and animal husbandry you probably wont have enough left to boost your magics Etc.

Just a thought, let me know what you think.

It would only work if they managed to perfectly balance all the options, which they won't do because GW has repeatedly demonstrated their absolute failure to produce anything akin to a balanced army. What we would end up with would be losing two armies (empire and Brets) and replacing it with one combined human army which would consist of whichever development level shook out as the best value-for-points.

I'm generally not in favour of combining separate armies because all you do it wind up with players combining the most powerful parts of each list (which is exactly what happens with 40k allies)

It also strikes me that the kind of book you are describing would be pretty hard to actually make models for and retain any sense of theme. Its not like you could really put out one set of models that would work for Cathay, Kislev and Estalia all at once.

Lord Dan
18-10-2013, 01:11
Warhammer Armies: Other.

It looks like loveless wins the thread.

LotlBotl
18-10-2013, 01:46
Nah, Beastmen aren't marked by Chaos any more, so the Goats, Lizards, and Rats can all be under the single Beastmen moniker now!

Bestigor
Kroxigor
Ratigor

All the Pisces are falling into place.

Fishmen new race for 2015

Cooper97
18-10-2013, 08:31
Personally i dont like this idea. firstly it would be to hard to join all the forces such as cathay and ind into this rule book with armies such as the empire and brettonia because they, from what we understand, are very different. in my opinion, if the empire is like germany, cathay is like china, with the great wall and so on. secondly, with all the history that both
BRettonia and the Empire have, it would be stupid to destroy all that and ally them under one banner. thirdly, the rules for both armies are different, because the empire are a faster learning nation, who adapt better than the brettonians do. i do think that, if made into a seperate game, this could potentially work, but it would be hard to create because they must have enemies to fight, and you cannot use the same armies that are in Warhammer already, because that just defeats the purpose. good idea, but only if you can do it right.

bhusus
19-10-2013, 04:21
I feel like "counts-as" solves this issue - Cathay can be done with Empire with maybe some minor tweaks here and there (possibly ally rules?) and Brets cover the other side (granted they are a bit outdated) of Kingdom of Men. Honestly though, if the stats line up well enough, almost any book can be used for different human kingdoms - I mean wouldn't Warriors of Chaos technically fall under Kingdoms of Men in this scenario?

Da Roc
19-10-2013, 05:00
Hate the idea, do you think DE will join alongside the HE? There is so much existing fluff to consider. I think some of the human races are better off in the background as they add nothing to the warhammer world game wise. Also combining them together gets too generic and similar to other fantasy/historical worlds.

izmerul
19-10-2013, 08:13
Hate the idea, do you think DE will join alongside the HE? There is so much existing fluff to consider. I think some of the human races are better off in the background as they add nothing to the warhammer world game wise. Also combining them together gets too generic and similar to other fantasy/historical worlds.

Never said "DE would join alongside HE" concept was more to have a sourcebook giving the player some options to choose the 'type' of human he wants to lead (ex: techno advanced OR religious traditionalist with Knights etc...) so that he can create his own fluff without being overpowered. And no I didn't mean to "destroy" Empire or Bretonnian fluff BUT there is room for more Humans in Ye Old World.

I guess the one thing I like about space marines is that you can create your own chapter (space marine or a count as using space wolves or other) but in fantasy it's like you're stuck with German or British /French

Now I don't think it would work for Elves (or for humans apparently :shifty:) because as you said players seem very attached to the WE, HE, DE differences.

EDIT: And anyway this would all have to be in a different game

Kakapo42
19-10-2013, 08:46
I guess the one thing I like about space marines is that you can create your own chapter (space marine or a count as using space wolves or other) but in fantasy it's like you're stuck with German or British /French

Now I don't think it would work for Elves (or for humans apparently :shifty:) because as you said players seem very attached to the WE, HE, DE differences.

I think I might be starting to see what's happened here. See, the problem is that human factions in warhammer are very different from one another, far more than different Space Marine chapters are. The difference between the Empire and Bretonnia is like the difference between Space Marines and Imperial Guard. They don't really have any core elements in common, except for the fact that they're human. The same applies for Cathay, Ind, Nippon, Tilea and any other non-chaos human faction.

If you're worried about being stuck with an archetype, you're probably going to have to broaden your horizons into the other, non-human factions.

Wishing
19-10-2013, 09:10
I have a cute little game on my shelf called Battle Rage which does almost exactly what is being described here. To create an army, you have to select a combination of a race and a culture. So if you choose Humans as your race, you can then choose them to be Evil, Advanced, Primitive, Arcane, Feudal, etc. The same would go for elves, dwafs, etc. They even have a Beastman race which specifically covers all beast-man combinations, like ratmen, lizardmen, birdmen, etc. So you customise your armies to be what you want them to be.

The key thing about Battle Rage is that it has no associated miniatures range. You use whatever random miniatures you want. Hence the design freedom.

GW's games exist not to give gamers options. They exist to create hype that sells models. Therefore, when GW release a new Araby army, they want a specific new Araby army book with specific new Araby rules in it. New rules make people excited about buying new models. Releasing a new Araby army and stating "you can use these models with your existing 'human kingdoms' army book", the lack of new rules would make everyone go "that's it?" and much fewer models would be sold than if people rushed out to build new armies for the new army book.

izmerul
19-10-2013, 09:57
I have a cute little game on my shelf called Battle Rage which does almost exactly what is being described here. To create an army, you have to select a combination of a race and a culture. So if you choose Humans as your race, you can then choose them to be Evil, Advanced, Primitive, Arcane, Feudal, etc. The same would go for elves, dwafs, etc. They even have a Beastman race which specifically covers all beast-man combinations, like ratmen, lizardmen, birdmen, etc. So you customise your armies to be what you want them to be.

Sounds interesting, they have a website? can you send me a link?

yabbadabba
19-10-2013, 10:26
As a fandex allowing players to explore other human forces outside of Empire, Brettonia, Tilea - yes. As a replacement for these, no.

And we need to remember that as it stands the other kingdoms of the Warhammer World have suggestions of species but nothing definite for the past decade or so. For istance we know that Arabia would be predominantly human but possibly not exclusively. Certainly I would argue against a pure human Nippon army too.

black_numenorean
19-10-2013, 19:54
I dislike the idea - I don't want to see brets fighting next to empire troops or araby troops. I like aries to be unique. We could just combine skaven, chaos, dark elves into the servants of darkness/chaos. It wouldn;t be as fun if you can just take anything and mix it. It would be hard for balancing and everyone would just take the best of each race and you would have tons of the same kingdoms of men lists.

Wishing
20-10-2013, 00:13
Sounds interesting, they have a website? can you send me a link?

Alas I can't find anything about it online. I also can't find it on my bookshelf just now, but it should be there somewhere. If I find it, I'll try and scan some pages to show. It only cost 50p in my local game store so it was clearly just someone's hobby project.

Cooper97
20-10-2013, 02:36
There is more room for armies of men, but the solution is not to join them together under one source book, something such as the LOTR easterlings would suffice. Because the Eastern races of men are relatively similar, they could create another army totally with a joint combination of all troops, who come under the Forces of Good area, so that they can ally easily with the armies of both the Empire and the Brettonians. If there are a few units and heroes from these factions, then a new army could be created entirely, which would draw the attention of many gamers. also, instead of trying to join them together under one source book, new fluff can be created as to the uprising of the races of men from the east, and this could be great for gw, as it will give us more to learn about, different ways to play the game, and also a new army to play.

snyggejygge
20-10-2013, 08:33
I like it, it works in Kings of War, were you can theme your human army however you want with a single list, so it should be able to work with Warhammer as well.

Iīve always wanted to cut down on the books anyway, personally I feel 3 good armies (humans, elves, dwarves), 3 evil ones (Chaos, undead & skaven) & 3 neutral ones (Greenskins, lizards & mercenaries) wouldīve been perfect. While at it tone down magic & cut down on a few magic items as well, better to have a balanced game than include a lot of stuff that is either op or never gets used.

TheDungen
20-10-2013, 15:53
elves are about as different as space marine chapters. Sure they have some perks and visual elements but the vast majority is very similiar. No I'm not really suggesting we should roll all elves into one book but it'd make more sense than Kingdoms of men.

Malagor
21-10-2013, 05:30
Nah, Beastmen aren't marked by Chaos any more, so the Goats, Lizards, and Rats can all be under the single Beastmen moniker now!
Oh yes, my beastmen would love some WLCs, Doomwheels or Hell pits. Finally rare choices that are good :cool:

Charistoph
21-10-2013, 06:51
Oh yes, my beastmen would love some WLCs, Doomwheels or Hell pits. Finally rare choices that are good :cool:

And led by a Slann who has access to the Dreaded 13th!

Tupinamba
21-10-2013, 22:15
Sounds interesting, they have a website? can you send me a link?

While not the link to this game, Iīd suggest for you to look for Armies of Arcana, which has a similar building system and quite good rules.

izmerul
22-10-2013, 08:50
While not the link to this game, Iīd suggest for you to look for Armies of Arcana, which has a similar building system and quite good rules.

Thank you! Going to look into it ^^

TheDungen
22-10-2013, 09:41
Never said "DE would join alongside HE" concept was more to have a sourcebook giving the player some options to choose the 'type' of human he wants to lead (ex: techno advanced OR religious traditionalist with Knights etc...) so that he can create his own fluff without being overpowered. And no I didn't mean to "destroy" Empire or Bretonnian fluff BUT there is room for more Humans in Ye Old World.

I guess the one thing I like about space marines is that you can create your own chapter (space marine or a count as using space wolves or other) but in fantasy it's like you're stuck with German or British /French

Now I don't think it would work for Elves (or for humans apparently :shifty:) because as you said players seem very attached to the WE, HE, DE differences.

EDIT: And anyway this would all have to be in a different game

what really makes the empire or brettonia different from this? Only that there is a generic faction (which is really classical in it's theme rather than generic) that you approximate to something not generic, instead you can approximate either of these two themed factions to another theme and you have the same results.

Strongarm
26-10-2013, 19:50
I personally do not like it. First off I feel it adds a layer of needless complexity, which is never good, but more importantly I feel it would set a dangerous precedent. After all, if you're grouping all the human factions together, why not all the Elves as well? And then why not all the Chaos factions? Eventually you'd end up with every single faction crammed into one book, and we'd be back to how it was in 1st- 3rd edition (though I imagine there are a number of people who would probably quite like to see that happen). Not to mention that with all the different background and model galleries for all the myriad human factions, on top of all the unit entries, any such book would probably weigh a ton (and cost an an arm and a leg to boot).

No, I'll stick with the current Army Book system thanks all the same. Sure, it isn't perfect, it has it's downsides, but it gives the different factions all room to breathe. It lets each and every one be it's own unique entity. Call me a whining individual who cares only for their special snowflake if you must, but I like that I can get an entire book just for my own faction. It makes me feel special. And I'd like to see others feel special the same way too. :angel:

Wouldn't mind seeing an Araby army for Warhammer though (it even has a built-in centrepiece with the Elephants), but even then it's not something I'd demand the creation of.

I totally agree,i cannot see the fascination with putting more than 1 army into a book.Warhammer is a diverse world with lots of scope for variety,lets keep it that way please guys