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Necromancy Black
22-10-2013, 10:47
Can find a lot of debate on this, but not a clear answer.

So using the Sword of anti-heroes on an old blood with the Sacred Stegadon Helm of Itza.

Sword of anti-heroes clearly says the bearer gets +1 Str and attack for each enemy hero at the beginning of each round of combat and last until the end of that round.

As per the BRB FAQ, stats from weapons apply when they say they do, and the example is given that the Fencer's Blades always gives WS 10. This weapon also says bearer.


So, following the same wording, the Sword of Anti-Heroes would give the character additional Str and Attacks the moment the combat phase started, meaning his impact hits from the stegadon helm receive the bonus str.

Is there any other rule anywhere I've missed that would stop this working?

Wesser
22-10-2013, 12:18
This is an old discussion and completely similar to the point about whether those impact hits also got the D3 wounds if the wearer used the Piranha Blade

Now I don't have the rulebook on me, but in regards to magical weapons their effect is limited to attacks made with that weapon.

Ogre Characters don't get stomps at Str 7 if they have the Ogre blade for instance. And if you have to take a Strength test you don't get to use weapon modfiers ofc.


Now I could go home and find the rule in the book that prevents this sort of abuse, but I won't have to, right? I really hope not...

Necromancy Black
22-10-2013, 13:20
There's a lot wrong with what you just said.

First off all, the wording with the Piranha Blade is different, so no, the impact hits would get benefits from that.

There is no rule saying that magical weapon affects are limited to their attacks. And as I stated, there is an FAQ that already says that some weapons affects apply at all times. The example given has the same wording as the Sword of Anti-Heroes.

Finally the Tyrant thing has two big problems with it. One, the Ogre blade specifically says it only works on attacks with it. Secondly, it's been FAQ'd that stomps NEVER get bonuses from items or special rules.

But if you know of any other specific rule that stops antiheroes working with impact hits please point it out. I generally can't find anything so I'm taking it that it does work.

Necromancy Black
22-10-2013, 13:20
Whoops, double post

FatTrucker
22-10-2013, 13:50
Sounds extremely gamey to me.

Its not the same as the Fencers Blades as it clearly only affects close combat, you don't always have the strength and attacks bonus, and the impact hits are caused by the Helm not the Sword. In the same way that a character on a chariot couldn't buff the impact hit strength from the chariot because they aren't made by the sword either.

Its clearly meant to relate to your close combat attacks made with the weapon.

Impact hits occur before the combat and are distributed as per shooting meaning you aren't specifically in B2B contact with anything at the point they occur.

I would say no as an opponent and wouldn't insult my opponent by even trying to attempt it as an attacker.

Ero-Senin
22-10-2013, 13:56
I would call you on this if you tried it against me. Clearly not how it is intended to be played. It is as if he is riding a steg so the impact hits are at base strength.

theunwantedbeing
22-10-2013, 17:22
Perfectly legal due to the shoddy wording GW likes to use.

Gamey though.

Wesser
22-10-2013, 18:04
Pfah

The wording GW uses also basically allows Blood Knights with Flag of Blood Keep to gets Ward saves from Fanatic hits if you read it that way.

Doesn't mean you should.

It doesn't matter how powerful it is. Competitive lists.. even slightly beardy list I can live with and enjoy, but anything like this and I'd pick up my Dolls and never play that opponent Again..... but then this is a rules queries... ************* allowed I guess

Necromancy Black
22-10-2013, 21:22
Perfectly legal due to the shoddy wording GW likes to use.

Shoddy wording is what GW does best.

Rules is completely valid then. I just wished people could actually post arguments in a rules discussion with actual rules instead of "It's clearly meant to be..." and "Chariots don't work that" (of course a chariot doesn't, why would a mount get the bonus?)

GotrekFan
22-10-2013, 23:38
For what it's worth, I don't see anything wrong with your interpretation of the rules and don't see how it's that big a deal anyway. It's a combo that will only come off once or twice per game and only really matter if you get caught off guard or bunker your heroes, not to mention that your paying 70pts for the pleasure :)


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Nymie_the_Pooh
23-10-2013, 00:40
It's iffy.

One argument for can be found in the Orcs & Goblins FAQ. It explicitly states that the choppa rule applies to Armour of Gork even though it doesn't to chariots because of the halfway fluff reason of it being the bulk of the Orc behind the impact hit where the Orc is not the force behind the chariot. They imply it is because it is the Orc causing the impact hits with the armour, but do not come right out and say it is because the choppa rule is directly affecting the Orc so anything that might affect the Orc may affect impact hits. Same with the big stabbas rules for Savage Orcs. The army book explicity states the big stabba is always strength 5 regardless of the strength of the unit, but the choppa rule is applied to it by the FAQ

The iffy part arises with the question of are impact hits close combat attacks? There can be some debate that impact hits occur after moving into base contact, but before regular combat. The rules state impact hits are distributed like shooting then we have this from the FAQ

Q: Do special rules that can inflict hits in close combat, such as Stomp and Breath Weapons, count as close combat attacks? (p42)
A: No they count as an unusual attack and will be distributed as a shooting attack.
Impact Hits are specifically stated under unusual attacks on p42 so it looks like they follow the same rules for what can affect them as Stomp and Breath Weapons would. Therefore, we know that impact hits are not considered close combat attacks (by the rulebook), and may follow the FAQ under "and such", but that part is up for conjecture.

If impact hits are not close combat attacks then we have this from the FAQ as well.

Q: Does a magic item or spell that gives a bonus to a characteristic, do so bonus for all rules purposes (e.g. the effect of spells, characteristic tests, etc)? (p4)
A: Yes, except for magic weapons or where the description of the item or spell specifically says otherwise.
Q: Does a weapon that gives a bonus to a characteristic only give that bonus when being used to attack a model?(p4)
A: Most weapons, including magic weapons, state when the bonus is given. For example, a model with the Fencer’s Blades will always have Weapon Skill 10 whilst a model with a great weapon will only have +2 Strength when striking an enemy in close combat. When a weapon does not say when the characteristic bonus applies, then it only applies when striking, or being struck, in close combat.
Again, a bit iffy as it might come down to timing and which effect actually happens first. Are actions that occur at the very beginning of close combat affected by affects calculated at the start of each round of combat, and if so, do they affect unusual attacks or just close combat attacks?

byrothegyro
23-10-2013, 06:23
the sword of anti heroes would give you the bonus because of the wording, bearer is all the time, wielder is only when using that weapon.

Q: Does a weapon that gives a bonus to a characteristic only give thatbonus when being used to attack a model?(p4)
A: Most weapons, including magic weapons, state when the
bonus is given. For example, a model with the Fencer’s Blades
will always have Weapon Skill 10 whilst a model with a great
weapon will only have +2 Strength when striking an enemy in
close combat. When a weapon does not say when the
characteristic bonus applies, then it only applies when striking,
or being struck, in close combat.

Since the SoAH says "bearer" it applies even when not attacking with the sword. The sword says to calculate the bonuses at the start of each round of close combat and that the effects end at the end of that phase. So since impact hits happen during the close combat phase the SoAH does apply it's bonuses to the impact hits. And impact hits are considered close combat attacks according to the rule book under the impact hit rules "Finally, as impact hits are close combat attacks (albeit of an unusual type)..." page 71 of the small rule book.

Roshan
23-10-2013, 10:49
the sword of anti heroes would give you the bonus because of the wording, bearer is all the time, wielder is only when using that weapon.


Im not going to comment on the actual rules, as i dont have the book to hand, but this statement is utter tosh!
Please dont try to argue that there is a difference between "bearer" and "wielder" in terms of when the weapons take effect....
If you were playing me with that logic you would get a swift slap in the chops :)

Roshan
23-10-2013, 10:57
Actually I would say , from memory that you can change the strength of the impact hits, but not modify the hits with the sword.
(again from memory so i could be incorrect ) This is because the Impact hits have the (d6) rule, the helm is unusual in that the model gets the impact hits, but bear in mind the charachters attack charachteristic has nothing to do with the impact hits, his base strength would - then modify with sword of anti heroes.

So yes i would accept you can modify the strength :)

Necromancy Black
23-10-2013, 11:53
Im not going to comment on the actual rules, as i dont have the book to hand, but this statement is utter tosh!


Unfortunately, thanks to GWs terrible FAQs, it's not. Cause the only difference between what they say works all the time and what they've said doesn't is that one lot of items have the wording "bearer" or "bearing" in their rules, while the ones disallowed have "wielder" or "wielding". Byrothegyro isn't making things up, that's just what GW has done.

Roshan
23-10-2013, 12:39
Unfortunately, thanks to GWs terrible FAQs, it's not. Cause the only difference between what they say works all the time and what they've said doesn't is that one lot of items have the wording "bearer" or "bearing" in their rules, while the ones disallowed have "wielder" or "wielding". Byrothegyro isn't making things up, that's just what GW has done.

Actually - i would disagree, its not the terrible wording, its the way certain people take things out of context. Please remember that people write things differently, and I imagine that a large corp like GW will have different people writing the BRB and then the FAQ, who will ofc use slightly different terminology. Problem this causes is people can choose to read it completly the wrong way, and find some really really thin shred of difference..... 2+2 = 76 springs to mind.

I cant think of one gaming example where the wielder and the bearer actually make any difference.... certainly not in the context of the SOAH. ( to me the distinction of the FAQ and when magic weapons confer their bonus is clear)

Bearer -
a person or thing that carries or holds something.
Wielder -
To handle (a weapon or tool, for example) with skill and ease.

In the context of the SOAH - i cant see a difference, I think anyone arguing this in any kind of tournament scenario would swiftly be shot.

byrothegyro
23-10-2013, 16:23
The example used in the FAQ is the Fencers Blades. The Fencers Blades wording on when the bonuses are applied is "bearer" because of this the FAQ says that a model with the Fencers Blades will always have weapon skill 10. The example in the FAQ for a weapon that only grants it's bonus when being used to attack with is a great weapon. Great weapons as well as all "special" not "magical" weapons apply their strength to the "wielder" as in the BRB page 89 under "Strength" and "Special rules". Because the SoAH says "bearer" just like the Fencers Blades, it applies it's bonuses at all times during the close combat phase. It would be all the time except the sword specifically says to calculate the bonuses at the beginning of the close combat phase and that the effects end a the end of the phase. So my statement that "bearer" is all the time and "wielder" is only when using the weapon isn't utter tosh, it's exactly what GW has said with their FAQ example. If you want to slap people that use this kind of logic go slap Mat Ward, Robin Cruddance, and whoever wrote the FAQ (slap Cruddance a couple times for what he did to my WoC book.)

Smogg
23-10-2013, 20:33
First I would just mention that Impact Hits are Close Combat Attacks. p71 "..as impact hits are close combat attacks..."

But if we want to go into the art of words, this is why Sword of Anti Heros will not affect impact hits.

Impact Hits are calculated "... at the very beginning of the close combat, before challenges are issued..."

Challenges are issued "... at the start of the combat round... " (which then has to be later than "the very beginning")
Sword of AH bonuses are calculated "... at the start of each round of close combat..." (at the same time as challenges)

So while you could use clever wording interpretation to argue that Sword of AH will boost the impact hits, you can also use clever wording to argue that impact hits happen before you get to apply the strength boost. :)

Mr_Rose
23-10-2013, 20:54
Yeah, seems like it goes:
Close combat phase begins
Choose a combat
Work out impact hits
Determine who can fight
Determine how many attacks they get and how they are being split
Sword of anti-heroes goes here
Determine strike order
Fight each Initiative step
Determine combat result
Take break tests
Flee & pursue
Choose another combat (goto step 2)
Unfortunately, it just now occurred to me that I've almost never seen step 5 played correctly – every time it seems that people are determining their attack allocation at each Initiative step instead.

Necromancy Black
23-10-2013, 21:36
That seems like the best argument so far. The wording is consistent and there's nothing I can see anyone that properly defines ordering of things that happen at the beginning of combat. I assume things actually happen at the same time but the only thing that can be really backed up with the rules is that this is a timing thing where impacts happen first.

byrothegyro
24-10-2013, 01:42
hmm that's a decent argument, but it could be that "the very beginning of the close combat" is the same as "the start of the combat round" and that's why they had to add the clause that you do impact hits before challenges. I think in Mr.Roses order list SoAH should at least be right after impact hits though because otherwise you won't get the + attack bonus from the sword if it comes after determine how many attacks people get. I'm not convinced that SoAH doesn't effect impact hits, but Smoggs argument is the best I've seen so far for why it wouldn't. I still think the start of the combat round is the same as the very beginning and that impact hits only delay challenges because of the additional these happen even before challenges clause. It really doesn't matter to me because I don't play lizards or have a character with impact hits.

Mr_Rose
24-10-2013, 02:06
The sword is where it is in the list because I couldn't get the BBCode to indent and make a sub-list. Conceptually it should really be 5a rather than 6, being a part of determining attacks, but…

Wesser
24-10-2013, 06:58
Yeah, seems like it goes:[LIST=1]
Unfortunately, it just now occurred to me that I've almost never seen step 5 played correctly – every time it seems that people are determining their attack allocation at each Initiative step instead.

Well, we have to don't we? If I have a Character on a monster I could then assign the attacks of both mount and character to strike some specific enemy for instance only for the character to kill it and the mount to be entirely wasted.

You assign attacks at each initiative step luckily

Mr_Rose
24-10-2013, 14:34
Well, we have to don't we? If I have a Character on a monster I could then assign the attacks of both mount and character to strike some specific enemy for instance only for the character to kill it and the mount to be entirely wasted.

You assign attacks at each initiative step luckily
Except no, that's not how the rules are written; assigning attacks comes before you determine strike order and the allocation rule specifically says this occurs "before any dice are rolled."

Wesser
25-10-2013, 08:35
Well luckily I don't need my rulebook that I can't look in till sunday to say that interpretation is ********, as it would render the game unplayable

First. Who should determine their striking order first? This will make an enormous difference as I shall demonstrate

Second. Basically before each combat you ask me to assign attacks for models who may not get to strike (because they get killed)?

Third. Lets assume I have 40 Halberdiers led by a Captain who charges 20 White Lions with a mage. Let's say I assign the Captain to kill the mage and halberdiers strike WhiteLions. He declares that every White Lion who can will Strike the Captain.

Lets assume the Captain dies.

Result = I have assigned attacks from a model thats dead which seems silly. ASF/High Initiative will basically allow a player to choose what the other player actually gets to attack since you can potentially take out whatever threat there is to his vulnerable models.

How would I assign attacks? 3 attacks from the captain (unless he dies) and 2 halberdiers on the mage and whatever number of halberdiers that survives attacks the White Lions? Do you call that assigning attacks.

This isn't stupid wording. Assigning attacks before combat starts is IMPOSSIBLE

"Before dice are rolled" just means that you can't roll the dice and see how many 5's and 6's you get before you start assigning attacks.

InquisitorAffe
25-10-2013, 09:02
"it can choose which one to attack when its turn to strike comes" seems to clearly mean when that model's initiative step arrives. "(before any dice are rolled.)" refers to dice for that model's attacks, not for any dice related to the entire combat. The bold definition of 'Striking Order' on p50 also supposed 'its turn to strike' being defined as when its initiative step arrives.

The whole thing can't be interpreted as a strict order, it would all blow up. "Who can strike?" isn't locked in before "Striking order." You have to go all the way back after each step of "Remove Casualties" and make sure that the people from "Who can Strike" are still in base contact with an enemy.

Necromancy Black
25-10-2013, 10:01
"it can choose which one to attack when its turn to strike comes"

Exactly this. You determine where attacks go when it comes time to make the attacks, which for most attacks means at each initiative step.