PDA

View Full Version : Challenges & unusual attacks



Rake
22-10-2013, 12:24
So question.
I have a infantry model on foot in a challenge against a infantry character on a dragon.

Can the dragon use its breath weapon? Does it hit the unit? Do all hits go on the character? Is it the same for Thunderstomp.

Artiee
22-10-2013, 13:02
In a challenge, everything goes to the model in the challenge.

Ero-Senin
22-10-2013, 13:58
Don't think you get thunder stomp in challenges anyway but would have to double check the rule book to be sure.

Blkc57
22-10-2013, 14:35
You can use all of your attacks as normal in a challenge, its just that they have to go against the guy in the challenge, also once the model is dead the rest of the attacks at lower initiative values are lost. So you can breathe, thunder-stomp etc into a challenge, its just that by the time the dragon gets to do that the model he is fighting is usually dead, and those attacks are lost.

boli
22-10-2013, 14:42
I've always done (Thunder)Stomp/Breath weapons as against the unit as a separate aspect than the challenge; although at the same time the person in the challenge would be immune to such effects (unless in a unit of less than 5).

They must "direct all of their attacks against each other"... Stomp and Breath weapon are different as they hit the unit instead. At least that is how we run it.

Blkc57
22-10-2013, 14:49
You've been doing it wrong boli, it tells you on page 103 how to do a character on a mount in a challenge. All of the model's attacks including those of the mount have to go into the challenge (the breath weapon and thunder stomps are types of attacks, special attacks but still a type of attack), also once an opponent is slain remaining attacks are lost and can't be directed against anyone else.

This is my typical experience with a character on a dragon and something I hope they fix in 9th edition: I charge my lord on a dragon into a block of lowly spearmen containing a battle standard bearer, it promises to be a gloriously bloody fight! But hark! My opponent challenges with his unit champ and I must accept this lowly peasant's call. My Lord swings 4 times and wounds twice killing the upstart! But now my dragon stands there and proceeds to pick his butt while the enemy surrounds me and whoops loudly. We calculate combat res: I have three for my charge and wounds, my opponent has 5 thanks to his ranks and banners. Oh noes I lose by 2! I must roll a break test and look at that it rolls a 8 and I break from combat! I am run down by a bad roll. A mighty end for a great hero that the gods will sings songs of I'm sure.

Mr_Rose
22-10-2013, 15:49
That's why you always give the guy on the mount a multi-wound weapon. Between overkill and the charge you can end up with a combat res of seven in your favour, which most enemy units will find it dead hard to match with static res.

boli
22-10-2013, 17:23
And that is why my method is more effective in the game playability itself ;)

Nymie_the_Pooh
23-10-2013, 12:54
From page ten of the FAQ

Q: If a model with a Breath Weapon, Stomp or Thunderstomp is in a challenge, can these attacks hit models not in the challenge?(p102)
A: No.

Azaireal
23-10-2013, 15:51
Page eight,


Q: Do special rules that can inflict hits in close combat, such as Stomp and Breath Weapons, count as close combat attacks? (p42)
A: No they count as an unusual attack and will be distributed as a shooting attack.

So, does this mean that impact hits are directed only towards a participant of challenge as well (unusual attack which is normally distributed as shooting)?
Has never come up for me, so I'm curious.

Henry_37
23-10-2013, 15:57
Surely a fairer rule would be that the challenge is over once one cobatent dies, any attacks at a lower I than the blow that kills can be used against any other valid targets.

Or would that be too sensible for GW?

Nymie_the_Pooh
23-10-2013, 16:00
p71, Impact Hits; Resolving Impact Hits; Second paragraph

Impact Hits are resolved at the very beginning of combat, before challenges are issued and attacks of any kind are made.

boli
23-10-2013, 21:17
Actually by the rule book you cannot assign breath/(thunder)stomp to a specific character if more than 5 are in the unit?

I still say my method works better in gameplay terms ;)

Maltor
24-10-2013, 05:59
Surely a fairer rule would be that the challenge is over once one cobatent dies, any attacks at a lower I than the blow that kills can be used against any other valid targets.

Or would that be too sensible for GW?

The problem with your suggestion is that other models in the same unit may have had their init order pass and were not allowed to direct attacks at the challenged model.

You could get this scenario:
Champion in a group of 20 HE spearmen against a chaos lord on dragon accepts the challenge. Champion has ASF so rolls its attack against the lord or dragon. The remaining spearmen cannot attacks as the only model in base contact is in a challenge. Next init step has ghe chaos lord kill the champion. So then the dragon should be allowed to attack the spearmen when they were prohibited from attacking it? Granted the spearmen are likely to die next round anyways.

In a single combat round you shouldnt be able to have protection from being attacked by the spearmen and being able to attack them back. The only way I see this being possibly allowed for 9th is if they allow monsterous mounts to be attacked by models not in the challenge. But i feel this is probably not going to change.

Rake
24-10-2013, 11:02
You see, my problem is that breath weapons and thunderstomp are not attacks that can be directed. They target the unit. Nothing in the rules implies they can target models. It is very unclear. The ruling regarding brethweapons and thunderstomps says the attack cannot hurt models outside the challenge. It does not clarify that it can be used in the challenge. The context of the question is not clear.

Henry_37
24-10-2013, 11:34
Maltor - But isn't the flip side of that the problem that blkc57 identified, you (the chaos lord in your example) win the challenge but loose combat on steadfast?
to re-work you example what if it was a massive unit of non-ASF I2 troops with a hero with ASF v a hero without ASF I3. the ASF hero attacks doesn't kill, the I3 hero kills the ASF hero, the regular troops look on with slack jaws then the I3 Hero runs away. does that maker more sense?

If you go off initative the elves from your example stand by to allow their valient champion to take down the chaos lord and their reward is a toasting once he looses (the champion could have avaoided the challenge and then the majority of the elves would have attacked the lord/dragon and may have killed one of them), but the general grunts can try to avenge their fallen leader.

Nymie_the_Pooh
24-10-2013, 22:09
The thing is most people play melee wrong. You are supposed to declare where all attacks are directed before ever rolling to hit. This is done for the whole unit and not just at each Initiative step. It's normally easier to declare at each Initiative step since models that declared attacks or their target might not be present when it comes time for a model to attack so most people allocate following the rules for Striking Order instead. It is a lot easier to keep up with and faster to allocate the attacks at initiative step, but it is technically wrong even if it normally yields the similar results. Breath weapons and stomp attacks strike after other attacks, but the allocation step occurs after a challenge is accepted/rejected but before any blows are struck, and at that moment the other character in the challenge is essentially its own unit for the purposes of attack allocation.

Lord Dan
25-10-2013, 00:53
Maltor - But isn't the flip side of that the problem that blkc57 identified, you (the chaos lord in your example) win the challenge but loose combat on steadfast?
to re-work you example what if it was a massive unit of non-ASF I2 troops with a hero with ASF v a hero without ASF I3. the ASF hero attacks doesn't kill, the I3 hero kills the ASF hero, the regular troops look on with slack jaws then the I3 Hero runs away. does that maker more sense?

If you go off initative the elves from your example stand by to allow their valient champion to take down the chaos lord and their reward is a toasting once he looses (the champion could have avaoided the challenge and then the majority of the elves would have attacked the lord/dragon and may have killed one of them), but the general grunts can try to avenge their fallen leader.

Forgetting what's "fair", the way it currently stands the rule best reflects what a challenge really is: two heroes stepping aside to fight one another while the fighting swirls around them. Warriors from both sides respect the challenge and do not engage until a hero falls, at which point the losing side decides whether to run away or stay and avenge their death (the break test). It would be pretty shady for a dragon to turn around and shout: "SURPRISE MOTHERFU-" and then blast the enemy with a breath attack before they've had the chance to react to the result.

MOMUS
25-10-2013, 02:10
Forgetting what's "fair", the way it currently stands the rule best reflects what a challenge really is: two heroes stepping aside to fight one another while the fighting swirls around them. Warriors from both sides respect the challenge and do not engage until a hero falls, at which point the losing side decides whether to run away or stay and avenge their death (the break test). It would be pretty shady for a dragon to turn around and shout: "SURPRISE MOTHERFU-" and then blast the enemy with a breath attack before they've had the chance to react to the result.


Actually that's rather amusing

I think challenges are best left as they are. Although it should be noted I never see challenges used in any honorary way, currently challenges are used to avoid/hold up character models that's about it.
A more interesting challenge system might over complicate things but would be better than my skink is going to hold up your bloodthirster so I can run away my entire army.

Henry_37
25-10-2013, 11:19
Forgetting what's "fair", the way it currently stands the rule best reflects what a challenge really is: two heroes stepping aside to fight one another while the fighting swirls around them. Warriors from both sides respect the challenge and do not engage until a hero falls, at which point the losing side decides whether to run away or stay and avenge their death (the break test). It would be pretty shady for a dragon to turn around and shout: "SURPRISE MOTHERFU-" and then blast the enemy with a breath attack before they've had the chance to react to the result.

But that isn't what happens, the two heros fight one kills the other the dragon stands around unable to attack and the unit wins combat due to ranks and the hero on dragon runs away.

A different option would be that a challenge is calculated to the end of the turn that one character died, allowing a slower mount (or hero with great weapon) to resolve their attacks even if the target has already suffered enough unsaved wounds to kill it. This would allow the combat resolution to take account of the missmached nature of the challenge.

Just some thoughts, I completely agree that what is fair or accurate will always have to take a back seat to simpler or faster rules for the benefit of the game.

Yowzo
25-10-2013, 11:46
That's why you always give the guy on the mount a multi-wound weapon.

Curious, I would have thought multiwound doesn't work with single-wound models but probably the overkill working makes it work....

Champions are exactly made for that. On my last game I bagged a doombull by challenging with a poor phoenix guard champion, I won combat by IIRC one, the doombull broke and although I couldn't catch it, a doombull without frenzy is a lot less scary.

Lord Dan
25-10-2013, 14:49
But that isn't what happens, the two heros fight one kills the other the dragon stands around unable to attack and the unit wins combat due to ranks and the hero on dragon runs away.


Representing:

Chaos Lord: "WHO AMONG YOU WILL FACE ME??!"
Elf Prince: "I will!"
Chaos Lord: "Hahah! Bring your pretty face to my axe, princeling!"

*2 minutes later*

Elf Prince: "AAAAGH!"
Chaos Lord: "IT IS DONE!"
Dragon: "Roooooar!"
Chaos Lord: "Now, foolish defenders of Lorthern, you have two choices. You co-"

*Unit charges*

Chaos Lord: "OH SHI-"

Henry_37
25-10-2013, 16:44
Or representing:

Chaos Lord: "WHO AMONG YOU WILL FACE ME??!"
Goblin Champion thrown forward: "Aiieeee!"
Chaos Lord: "Hahah! Bring your green face to my axe, orcling!"

*2 minutes later*

Goblin: "AAAAGH!"
Chaos Lord: "IT IS DONE!"
Dragon: "Roooooar! I'm bored"
Chaos Lord: "Now, foolish defenders of Goblindom, you have two choices. You co-"

*Unit stands still*

Chaos Lord: "OH SHI-"

theunwantedbeing
25-10-2013, 17:03
Curious, I would have thought multiwound doesn't work with single-wound models but probably the overkill working makes it work....

They always work, you just gain no benefit from them usually because you never count excess wounds towards combat resolution, except in a challenge.

Ludaman
28-10-2013, 04:25
Let's face it, the challenge rules blow. If I could fix them with my magic wish-list wand, here's what I'd do. The side who's turn it is may declare a challenge with any of their characters or champions in combat, against any enemy character or champion in combat, if they decide not to declare a challenge, the opponent may do so. The enemy side can accept or refuse, no penalty for refusing, you still get to fight with the model. If the enemy accepts, those are the only two models that fight that round. After attacks and saves have been made, and one or both characters are dead (in case of simultaneous attacks), here's how you work out combat result. If you killed their character, you get 25pts added to your victory points for a unit champion. 50 for a hero, and 100 for a lord, also whichever side's left standing wins the combat by 1 (just like a yell and bawl). If both combatants are dead, it's a draw. If the combat round ends and neither side is dead, it's a draw and the challenge is continued in the next round.

No overkill rules, breath weapons and stomps only go against the guy in the challenge, and you don't lose out on anything by just declining a challenge if you'd rather your character just go ape crazy on the unit.

It makes the whole thing a more honor/bonus-point/fun part of combat, rather than the silly rules-exploit-fest it is now.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)

Lord Dan
28-10-2013, 04:48
Let's face it, the challenge rules blow. If I could fix them with my magic wish-list wand, here's what I'd do. The side who's turn it is may declare a challenge with any of their characters or champions in combat, against any enemy character or champion in combat, if they decide not to declare a challenge, the opponent may do so. The enemy side can accept or refuse, no penalty for refusing, you still get to fight with the model. If the enemy accepts, those are the only two models that fight that round. After attacks and saves have been made, and one or both characters are dead (in case of simultaneous attacks), here's how you work out combat result. If you killed their character, you get 25pts added to your victory points for a unit champion. 50 for a hero, and 100 for a lord, also whichever side's left standing wins the combat by 1 (just like a yell and bawl). If both combatants are dead, it's a draw. If the combat round ends and neither side is dead, it's a draw and the challenge is continued in the next round.

No overkill rules, breath weapons and stomps only go against the guy in the challenge, and you don't lose out on anything by just declining a challenge if you'd rather your character just go ape crazy on the unit.

It makes the whole thing a more honor/bonus-point/fun part of combat, rather than the silly rules-exploit-fest it is now.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)

Except that in that case armies with decent heroes and crappy troops (Orcs and Goblins, Vampire Counts, Tomb Kings, etc.) will always want to challenge and armies with decent heroes AND decent troops (High Elves, Dark Elves, Warriors of Chaos, etc.) will never want to challenge.

Ludaman
28-10-2013, 04:53
True, but at least there would be no penalty for accepting or refusing, only bonus points for the brave or foolish! Plus a goblin lord can always kill a grave guard champion :). Also it makes sense to me that a vampire lord would go around challenging dudes only to have the common response be... "Nah, I'm good, nothing to prove here... Now get him boys!"


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)

Lord Dan
28-10-2013, 06:45
True, but at least there would be no penalty for accepting or refusing, only bonus points for the brave or foolish! Plus a goblin lord can always kill a grave guard champion :). Also it makes sense to me that a vampire lord would go around challenging dudes only to have the common response be... "Nah, I'm good, nothing to prove here... Now get him boys!"


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)

Good points.

N1AK
28-10-2013, 10:06
That's why you always give the guy on the mount a multi-wound weapon. Between overkill and the charge you can end up with a combat res of seven in your favour, which most enemy units will find it dead hard to match with static res.

That's be great advice if the majority of characters who can ride monsters had access to multi-wound weapons ;) you might as well say that's why you should always take a weapon that gives you 10 strength 10 attacks.

The situation, although sometimes a little 'odd' is useful for balancing the combat potential of such characters. There are however multiple ways to try and moderate it. Obviously if you can reliably cause a crazy number of wounds with the first attack by whatever means that works, failing that items that make you stubborn or unbreakable work, options that generate additional CR where available are nice. Beyond that using tactics to remove a rank before charging, charging while they are in terrain etc can avoid the problem entirely.

N1AK
28-10-2013, 10:14
Let's face it, the challenge rules blow.

I quite like the challenge rules (quirks and all). I wouldn't mind if they changed it so that all attacks may be made in challenges even after the target has died for the purposes of overkill. It fits the theme, the Goblin champion steps up and has his head swiftly removed by the Dark Elf Dreadlord and then mere moments later the Black Dragon devours his corpse whole further intimidating the unit further even though it does no further damage.