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MLP
23-10-2013, 00:40
I've recently been working out the math for these two items for my Minotaur in my beastmen army and thought I'd put the same thoughts here for the warseer crowd.

It turns out that both are relatively similar with ASF being better if you are hitting on a 3+/4+ and +1 to hit being better if you're hitting on 5+/6+

Now there's a few factors to consider with this is mind.

The WS and I of the character using the item.
High initiative armies: WE, DE, HE, Skaven, WoC
Mark of Nurgle for WoC/DoC
Glittering Scales
Cloak of Ulric

Quite a lot of these armies and such are common in the high tier armies in the current meta (WE excepted) so are quite relevant. ASF is not so good if you're not getting rerolls and even worse if you're hitting on 5+/6+ Which against WoC/DoC is common!

Sword of striking gives a guaranteed +1 to hit which is almost as good as ASF for 3+/4+ and better in any other respect.

On top of that you pay an extra 10 points for ASF over +1 to hit and I'm not sure it's worth it personally, unless you have high WS and I and can be sure you'll get the rerolls on a low to hit roll.

So in summary, for an all comers list in the current Meta the Sword of Striking is better than the Sword of Swift Slaying. Sword of Swift Slaying is better in match ups against low WS and low I targets only.

Hope this helps someone. I've done this more for myself than anything but thought I'd share my thoughts.

Here's my math, hopefully it is correct!

Normal to hit roll required

3+ is 2/3 is 67%
4+ is 1/2 is 50%
5+ is 1/3 is 33%
6+ is 1/6 is 17%

With Sword Swift Slaying (reroll)

3+ is 2/3 + 2/9 is 89%
4+ is 1/2 + 1/4 is 75%
5+ is 1/3 + 1/9 is 44%
6+ is 1/6 + 1/36 is 30%

With Sword of Striking (+1 to hit)

3+ is 5/6 is 83%
4+ is 2/3 is 67%
5+ is 1/2 is 50%
6+ is 1/3 is 33%

SteveW
23-10-2013, 03:08
With the popularity of elves, maybe the gold sigil sword would be better than either.

Lord Dan
23-10-2013, 04:08
So the re-rolls are only better when you're hitting on 3's and 4's, and then only by 5-8%. I think I'd rather have the guaranteed +1 to hit from the Sword of Striking than the potential for 8% more hits if your opponent doesn't have ASF or a higher In than you (which, with a max In of 5 for Beastmen, isn't all that hard to achieve).

EDIT: Thought isn't there a better weapon for a Minotaur than one which increases the chance of hitting, such as one that boosts S or A values?

MLP
23-10-2013, 07:57
With the popularity of elves, maybe the gold sigil sword would be better than either.

Well it depends what you're after. If you need to strike first because you expect to be taking wounds from a character or the enemy unit is on it's last couple of ranks then yes, otherwise I'd say the sword of striking is better for consistency of hits.

So the re-rolls are only better when you're hitting on 3's and 4's, and then only by 5-8%. I think I'd rather have the guaranteed +1 to hit from the Sword of Striking than the potential for 8% more hits if your opponent doesn't have ASF or a higher In than you (which, with a max In of 5 for Beastmen, isn't all that hard to achieve).

EDIT: Thought isn't there a better weapon for a Minotaur than one which increases the chance of hitting, such as one that boosts S or A values?

Yeah sword of striking seems to be the way forward, especially if your aim to to kill rank and file.

Thing about Minotaur is they already have 4 attacks minimum, +1with frenzy, then an additional +1 every round of combat you win. They're also S5 (6 for Doombull) so don't need that strength boost a lot of the time, at least against T3.

Wesser
23-10-2013, 07:58
Difficult to measure though.

My Vampire Lord is a big fan of Sword of Striking since both Vanhel's, Corpse Cart and Quickblood can all provide re-rolls.

Same for other armies. Guess it depends on ease of getting those re-rolls huh?

Francis
23-10-2013, 12:25
For elves the SoSS is completely useless since they already have ASF, against elves however the sword will be usefull since it denies them their ASF rerolls and ignores their I stat so that you both strike at the same time.

Wesser
23-10-2013, 12:45
For elves the SoSS is completely useless since they already have ASF, against elves however the sword will be usefull since it denies them their ASF rerolls and ignores their I stat so that you both strike at the same time.

Not useful unless you are alone, as they can always choose to strike someone else

logan054
23-10-2013, 15:23
With ASF vs +1 to hit it really depends on the model, with my jugger hero I would rather have the ASF from the helm of many eyes so I can take a halberd and have S6 rerolling to hit rather than S5 and +1 to hit, it isn't simply about the rerolls, having ASF will give me some protection against enemy characters such as blender lords, he's going to hurt a lot if I end up having to fight him, atleast if I have ASF then I deny him his rerolls giving my character a much greater chance of surviving and limiting his combat res.

With my Daemon prince I would rather have the +1 to, partly because it's cheaper and allows me to get some other items (like a shield and dragonbane gem), but also because he will be hitting most things on a 2+ anyway, because of his high I value very few models will be getting rerolls to hit anyway, those will mainly be elven combat lords, so nothing to be all that concerned about.

For other armies I think I would be more inclined to take a halberd or great weapon, at the end of the day S4 with +1 to hit or rerolls to hit isn't going to do all that much, I could see either being useful on a orc warlord with because of the chopper rule.

Glen_Savet
24-10-2013, 00:02
With my poor Saurus fighty characters, I'll generally go for +1 to hit. Obviously ASF is less useful for reliability purposes with low initiative characters. Still nice to just be going first though.

Lord Dan
24-10-2013, 01:30
Out of curiosity, why not take the Axes of Khorgor? They grant +1A and you re-roll to hit in every round of combat for only slightly more than the ASF or +1 to hit sword. Granted, you can't take a shield, however you can still make him absurdly hard to kill with Gnarled Hide and a magic helm (the Ramhorn Helm and Dawnstone springs to mind as an especially nasty combination).

ArtificerArmour
25-10-2013, 07:53
Do you benefit from striking when you make your attacks from the ramhorn helm? As i do enjoy rerolls from them!

Poseidal
25-10-2013, 13:01
The Sword of Striking is cheaper, so if fitting magic items are a concern that's a factor to take into account.

Engekomkommer
25-10-2013, 13:45
With Sword Swift Slaying (reroll)

3+ is 2/3 + 2/9 is 89%
4+ is 1/2 + 1/4 is 75%
5+ is 1/3 + 1/9 is 44%
6+ is 1/6 + 1/36 is 30%

Hmm, I think your math is a bit off when working out the reroll %.

Lets do a probability tree for the 5+ with reroll.
2 Dice rolls, needing 5+
1st one chance of hitting is 1/3 and missing is 2/3
Out of those 2/3s, 1/3 will hit, and 2/3s will miss completely.
So it's 1/3 + (2/3s * 1/3) which is 55% Not 44%

I think the correct values are:

3+ 2/3 + (1/3 * 2/3) = 88%
4+ 1/2 + (1/2 * 1/2) = 75%
5+ 1/3 + (2/3 * 1/3) = 55%
6+ 1/6 + (5/6 * 1/6) = 30.5%

Ok, I think you just miscalculated 5+, and I think I can see where you went wrong. :)

Anyway, this shows that *If* you're higher Int, swift slaying is better (I assume you're lord is at least WS5, meaning he'll never need 6+ to hit (Is there anything that gives -2 to hit?)). Of course, if you're int is lower, then it depends if you think you can finish off the over lord before he strikes, in which case it's still better.

Lord Dan
25-10-2013, 14:51
The Sword of Striking is cheaper, so if fitting magic items are a concern that's a factor to take into account.

Certainly, however it comes with the added benefit of always granting re-rolls and coming with an additional attack. Furthermore it still leaves plenty of points for obligatory combat gear like Gnarled Hide and the Dawnstone, so I really can't see much of a reason not to take it...

medevilmike
25-10-2013, 15:11
well this one is super simple really, soss and the +1 to hit are both 25 points in the beasts book....so swift slaying is better on a mino char. granted you lose rerolls against half the armys out there, they also lose their asf against you.

if it was only 15pts for beasts it would be better almost every time but sadly it is 25 for us.

Poseidal
25-10-2013, 15:13
Certainly, however it comes with the added benefit of always granting re-rolls and coming with an additional attack. Furthermore it still leaves plenty of points for obligatory combat gear like Gnarled Hide and the Dawnstone, so I really can't see much of a reason not to take it...

I can't remember the exact points, but I think with a Daemon Prince, the Sword of Striking lets you buy a Dragonhelm or magic shield which is quite handy, as they have a much smaller magic items allowance than a normal character.

But yeah, the Sword of Swift Striking is generally superior, but it does cost more points in turn.