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Frgt/10
23-10-2013, 11:10
...are now up. Enjoy.

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/F/FWchaptertactics.pdf

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/C/Charcterupdate.pdf

Mr_Rose
23-10-2013, 11:28
Some of these tactics are pretty cool and none seem massively OP, except maybe the Fire Hawks' extra scoring units.

A.T.
23-10-2013, 11:38
Red Hunters - aka blow all the enemy flyers out of the air on a turn of your choosing.

I do particularly like the 'by the seal' rule that they have - they are battle brothers with the sisters of battle so long as an inquisitor is also included as part of the sisters of battle force. Dumbasses.

Frgt/10
23-10-2013, 11:47
Some of these tactics are pretty cool and none seem massively OP, except maybe the Fire Hawks' extra scoring units.

that allows them potentially 12 scoring units, which is a bit crazy; but at least it's thematic

duffybear1988
23-10-2013, 12:21
Hmmm not bad. At least they offer some variations which should lead to differences in armies. Now all they need to do is hurry up and redo the Eldar Corsairs list!!!!!!!!!!!

Nirach
23-10-2013, 13:09
I'm not sure how they justify Loth being cheaper for losing three psychic powers (Let's face it, three is all you need with him anyway..), or Culln getting Smash, but.. All in all, seems to be a well rounded update!

Gropius
23-10-2013, 13:57
I'm not sure how they justify Loth being cheaper for losing three psychic powers (Let's face it, three is all you need with him anyway..), or Culln getting Smash, but.. All in all, seems to be a well rounded update!

At least he can't mix disciplines. Did he have that limitation before?

Interesting that Malakim Phoros' Glaive Encarmine has different rules to the standard Blood Angels Glaive.

All in All these are some really interesting and flavourful rules for characters and chapter tactics.

Inquisitor Engel
23-10-2013, 13:59
I should have expected this, but I'm a bit disappointed I can no longer take a counts-as Sevrin Loth in my Imperial Fists army. :( One of the best psykers in the game. Ah well.

Freakiq
23-10-2013, 14:05
What's people's opinions on the Red Scorpions' chapter tactics?

wyvirn
23-10-2013, 14:07
As a Tyranid player, Executioners scare me a little. But as a Chaos player, the new Space Sharks seem like a perfect counts as Night Lords!

Hendarion
23-10-2013, 14:20
I didn't read all of that as I don't play Marines, but I can only applaud to Forge World for these PDFs. We need more of such.

Warnoober
23-10-2013, 14:21
I'm kind of disappointed with the Minotaurs. The fluff says they liked to surround thier targets with fast units and pelt them with heavy fire. Thier tactics imply thier old fighting style of charge forward rawr!

And why does the "Legendary Fighter" Chapter Master Moloc have one less attack than a generic chapter master?

Carnage
23-10-2013, 14:26
So....

Red Scorpians, AKA free army wide FnP.....seems fair.

Carcharodons, BP/CCW isn't anything new, and Rage isn't going to happen. Play BT instead IMO.

Mantis Warriors, Doesn't work on bulky...so ASM don't get always on HoW, neither do terminators....what does that leave? Tacticals? Reroll seize is meh, but divination for the librarians is decent at least.

Raptors, half Raven guard (meh) and half "Your bolters are now rending LOL". Sound amazing for a tactical heavy army, as it's about a 50-66% increase in damage output against power armour. Compare that to Imperial fists bolter drill, which is about 10%.

Executioners, Morale bonus is mediocre at best. Instant death on 6 to wound in a challenge isn't awful, but it's a melee/challenge bonus, so meh.

Angels Revenant, Decent against necrons, bad otherwise.

Red Hunters, "Pick a turn to kill all your opponents aircraft, or MCs, or Vehicles" wut? Seems very good if you have a couple of beefy shooting units (Las/mssile dev cents, multi-lascannon/missile devastators, combi-heavy sternguard...etc).

Star Phantoms, Seem very solid, and might make an excellent drop pod list. Army wide twinlinked salvo/rapid fire/heavy weapons is extremely good, and the reserve bonus to "late" pods isn't too bad either.

Minotaurs, poor morale boost and a charge distance bonus in your enemy's deployment zone....garbage.

Fire Hawks, I'll need to think on this one. +1s on deep struck flamer weapons and +1S on hammer of wrath isn't bad. Scoring ASM and vanguard are decent. Seems like it's a "Blood Angels done via the vanilla codex" kind of army list. I think it will suffer from the same issues that BA do, but it's interesting anyways. Also, 24 potential scoring units in 1 FoC is interesting (6 troop, 3 FA and 3 Elite, all combat squad'ed).

Astral Claws, Meh. Stubborn is poor. Skilled riders and scout to your land speeders isn't bad, but not really amazing. Might make a passable bike/speeder list, but I don't know how well it will stack up against White Scars.

This opens some interesting builds.

Senbei
23-10-2013, 14:31
Red Hunters - aka blow all the enemy flyers out of the air on a turn of your choosing.

I do particularly like the 'by the seal' rule that they have - they are battle brothers with the sisters of battle so long as an inquisitor is also included as part of the sisters of battle force. Dumbasses.

They've obviously read the 'AS' codex and decided to ignore it like everybody else.

Camman1984
23-10-2013, 14:35
Lias issodon looks fab for raptors so will be rocking my conversion for him.

Raptor ct are cool and fluffy but heavy 1 makes the rending very situational as they cant move when they do it and rapid fire will often do more damage.

So very happy as a raptor player overall, mainly because i loved lias before and now he is even cooler.

Poncho160
23-10-2013, 14:37
Space Sharks with an extra close combat weapon are exactly the same price as chaos marines with the same weapon loadout...hmm seems fair...

Senbei
23-10-2013, 14:38
Lias issodon looks fab for raptors so will be rocking my conversion for him.

Raptor ct are cool and fluffy but heavy 1 makes the rending very situational as they cant move when they do it and rapid fire will often do more damage.

So very happy as a raptor player overall, mainly because i loved lias before and now he is even cooler.

I thought you could move and fire heavy weapons nowadays? Excuse me if I'm wrong, I'm playing other games at the moment...

Nirach
23-10-2013, 14:42
At least he can't mix disciplines. Did he have that limitation before?

Interesting that Malakim Phoros' Glaive Encarmine has different rules to the standard Blood Angels Glaive.

All in All these are some really interesting anf flavourful rules for characters and chapter tactics.

I think it was just "pink any six powers", but I don't have the old PDF to hand any more.

Carnage
23-10-2013, 14:42
I thought you could move and fire heavy weapons nowadays? Excuse me if I'm wrong, I'm playing other games at the moment...

You can, but only snap firing of course.


I think it was just "pink any six powers", but I don't have the old PDF to hand any more.

I think his post 6th rule was "Pick a table, you get all of it's powers". Picking 3 is almost as good, since most tables are more than half crap, and you can't cast them all at the same time anyways. Biomancy tanking style and telepathy invisible dev cents and/or hallucinate will be entertaining.

Gropius
23-10-2013, 14:43
They've obviously read the 'AS' codex and decided to ignore it like everybody else.

I think the point is that they can't take inquisitors.

Boomstick
23-10-2013, 14:52
Lias is cooler but his Warlord Trait is pointless as it gives him something he already has, hopefully they will fix it.

Navar
23-10-2013, 14:57
Red Scorpians, AKA free army wide FnP.....seems fair.

Not army wide though. Only tactical sergeants can do this, so unlike Iron hands who have FnP 6+ Centurions, Red Scorpians just have 5+ FnP on their tactical squads and then only if they don't combat squad.

I think it actually is fair.

Carnage
23-10-2013, 15:07
Not army wide though. Only tactical sergeants can do this, so unlike Iron hands who have FnP 6+ Centurions, Red Scorpians just have 5+ FnP on their tactical squads and then only if they don't combat squad.

I think it actually is fair.

Opps, my bad. I thought it was "Any sergeant or veteran sergeant", which would have been silly. In this case, it's nothing particularly special then, as tactical squads aren't exactly amazing.

totgeboren
23-10-2013, 15:12
Annoying that The Carcharodons get to buy an extra ccw to their bp and bolter for a single point, considering what CSM have to pay for it.
(I'm not gonna turn this into yet another CSM whine thread, just saying that stuff like that sort of rubs salt in the wound...)

Other than that, I like most of the changes. Will be fun to face Vaylund Cal and T5 Devastators with 6+ FnP. In a way they would make better bodyguards for him than standard tacticals (that my friend usually use) because of the increased T, but on the other hand you want a beast like him up close hitting people with his hammer. A pretty hard character to use efficiently. And his Warlord Trait is pretty sucky, as a CSM player I would know! :p

Graeme
23-10-2013, 15:30
Astral Claws, Meh. Stubborn is poor. Skilled riders and scout to your land speeders isn't bad, but not really amazing. Might make a passable bike/speeder list, but I don't know how well it will stack up against White Scars.


As a Claws player, I was disappointed and a bit confused by this. Disappointed cos as you say stubborn and skilled rider/scout for bikers/speeders aren't amazing, and the accompanying drawback - may not chose to fail morale tests - just feels entirely unecessary. Confused because Astral Claws previously were generally described as being all about the "Big guns never tire", as opposed to biker/speeder guys.

On the other hand, they've buffed Lufgt Huron (he's gained +1W and +1A, a fancy warlord trait and gone fromAP3 to AP2 on his 'Ghost Razors' while staying at the same points) so that's nice.

Lord Damocles
23-10-2013, 15:32
Huh. Getting killed by Necrons gives you Preferred Enemy.

Graeme
23-10-2013, 15:41
Huh. Getting killed by Necrons gives you Preferred Enemy.

Only hating Necrons when they're actually there to be hated is cool though. Would like to see that format for racial emnity type stuff adopted in other GW/FW lists.

Camman1984
23-10-2013, 16:15
Cant even snap fire with raptor tactics, specifically says you can only do it if you dont move. Guess it means bikes can do it though as relentless means you count as not moving. I think its a cool trick if you didnt plan on moving anyway and the enemy are at 12-24 inch range. But i wouldnt plan a battle around it.

Interestingly it doesnt exclude sternguard special ammo so you get the better ammo+rending. One of the ammo has 30 inch range making them almost sniper range.

duffybear1988
23-10-2013, 17:13
I quite like the look of Courbray and Narvez as special characters.

Camman1984
23-10-2013, 17:18
Forgeworld have done a good job with these i think, there is some very fun and characterful options there.

Fallen11
23-10-2013, 17:48
Very disappointed with Mantis warriors. I wanted to use them as great Alpha legion count as with whole army infiltrates. Now they are basically useless. Yea right, you will charge with your marines from cover so often...How they went from whole army infiltrates to , lets charge with whole army across battlefield, because you are at disadvantage compared to most chapters is beyond me.

Camman1984
23-10-2013, 19:34
Lias warlord trait is a bit of a poor choice but at least it is something that does synergise. Bulky+ stuff cannot benefit from the scout rules or the stealth rule according to RG CT, but nothing stops them benefiting from the warlord trait giving outflank. Means lias can sneak something bigger on the sides, like terminators or centurions. Most of his rules require him to alive rather than on the board, so he can bide his time then sneak on with some shrouded heavies.

Goosey_J
23-10-2013, 19:45
Wow, pretty astounded by some of the posts in this thread. This is a beautiful document being given for free, and all some people can do is whine. Go figure, I guess.

All I have to say is I think they're all great. Some are a little better than others, but that's to be expected. No doubt that they are all fluffy. I for one am thrilled that there are actually Carcharodon CTs in the game now, and they're pretty rad at that. For 1 point more per marine you can get a CCW ON TOP of your BP and Bolter. That really is a tactical squad. The Rage is cake icing really.

Tyberos... still missing an Iron Halo (why?) but otherwise, wow what a total beast. 6 Attacks on the charge, 7 if you have Rage (which you will almost certainly get if you're fielding him well) and 1+ Str when you get Rage. Put him with Honour Guard with a banner for a potential 8 attacks on the charge. And you can put him in a pod for first turn deployment into the enemy back lines. Really nice.

Lester
23-10-2013, 22:47
Red Hunters...just what the doctor ordered for my brother's Inquisition army.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 4

Dryaktylus
23-10-2013, 23:36
Sisters of Battle as Battle Brothers

Well...:shifty:

ForgottenLore
24-10-2013, 00:34
Back when the codex was still rumors, or perhaps right after release, wasn't there a thread where one or two people were arguing vehemently that it would be a major production for FW to do chapter tactics for all the Badab chapters and that we were likely to never see unique ones fore any but the Scorpions?

shaun03
24-10-2013, 00:57
As a carcharodon player it's great to see that can field my army in proper form, no counts as blood angles or space wolfs.

None of these tatcis are OP which is great as more people will able to use there armies. It was always frustrating build army and here your opt, cry foul because you have something form forgeworld, plus is rare move they would publish all these info fur free. It basically saves new players from having to buy any if badd war books. Given SC and chapter taics on PDF.
Overall I think got it right with points and traits for SC. Although some are off from the fulff and go against flavor of army, but for free hand out there not much room to bitch.

Inquisitor Engel
24-10-2013, 03:42
Very disappointed with Mantis warriors. I wanted to use them as great Alpha legion count as with whole army infiltrates. Now they are basically useless. Yea right, you will charge with your marines from cover so often...How they went from whole army infiltrates to , lets charge with whole army across battlefield, because you are at disadvantage compared to most chapters is beyond me.

If you're playing as Alpha Legion counts-as, wouldn't the Astral Claws list (Tyrant's Legion could be cultists, etc) or even Raven Guard make more sense?

Fallen11
24-10-2013, 04:18
How is scout move better than whole army infiltrates and deploys basically after your opponent has been already deployed + very nice librarian Ahzra? For cultist you can always ally guard, so you don't need to have them in codex.

Baaltor
24-10-2013, 04:47
Annoying that The Carcharodons get to buy an extra ccw to their bp and bolter for a single point, considering what CSM have to pay for it.
(I'm not gonna turn this into yet another CSM whine thread, just saying that stuff like that sort of rubs salt in the wound...)

Let's not get worried about that. Space Marines aren't exactly the best army, or even overpowered. The fact is that CSM are just rubbish; there's no reason to see correlation between the two units because one is a mistake, and the other isn't. I certainly don't want to see other players weighed down out of spite.


Huh. Getting killed by Necrons gives you Preferred Enemy.

That made me think that the surviving marines don't have any preference for their foe, but they're just the coincidentally surviving marines, who've by law of evolution just happened to be better at fighting Necrons. XD

Baragash
24-10-2013, 09:02
Wow, pretty astounded by some of the posts in this thread. This is a beautiful document being given for free, and all some people can do is whine. Go figure, I guess.

Well, free for people that didn't previously spend 90 on IA books....

For me the disappointing thing is that some chapters have clearly chapter-wide "traits" still wrapped up in the special characters, like the Minotaurs and the Exorcists.

There's also a couple of instances of rules where it's implied that everyone with the Chapter Tactic has the rule but it doesn't actually say that eg Legendary Marksmen.


Confused because Astral Claws previously were generally described as being all about the "Big guns never tire", as opposed to biker/speeder guys

Big guns never tire was more Huron's thing, with bikes being a wider chapter thing. The Tyrant's Legion has a (rubbish and not really special) "signature" bike unit, and in the last Apoc version the Red Corsairs had a bike formation based off this "trait".

Shibboleth
24-10-2013, 09:19
Back when the codex was still rumors, or perhaps right after release, wasn't there a thread where one or two people were arguing vehemently that it would be a major production for FW to do chapter tactics for all the Badab chapters and that we were likely to never see unique ones fore any but the Scorpions?
Those Fools!

Baaltor
24-10-2013, 10:09
Those Fools!

THE COWARDS, THE FOOLS.

We should take away their Chapter Tactics.

Rolsheen
24-10-2013, 10:41
Ha Ha Bray'arth Ashmantle with Salamanders chapter tactics, well I'm going to master craft one of his dreadnought close combat weapons and the heavy flamers are now twin-linked. Oh yes he has 4 hp and it will not die and a new warlord trait for no points increase.

Camman1984
24-10-2013, 11:06
After reading the rules for brayath ashmantle, i just hope bjorn the fel handed's tear ducts dont work any more.

daveNYC
24-10-2013, 12:10
After reading the rules for brayath ashmantle, i just hope bjorn the fel handed's tear ducts dont work any more.

Eh. Bjorn might be a more impressive character, but his actual dreadnought chassis is still standard Imperial tech. It's good to have a primarch who's handy around the workshop.

Camman1984
24-10-2013, 12:12
I know, i just remember a day way back when that bjorn was the big badass dread on the block. Brayath is so much cooler.

daveNYC
24-10-2013, 12:30
It'd be pretty easy to give Bjorn some army wide buffs while keeping his actual combat abilities close to what your regular ven dread can do. Of all the things to be worried about in 40k, the Space Wolves getting the short end of the stick is way in last place.

zero88
24-10-2013, 14:11
I see shenanigans ensuing with Red Hunters allied with the new SoB Priests...

Loth looks pretty damn good though getting Endurance, Iron Arm, and a 2++ every turn with his warp charge points.

A.T.
24-10-2013, 14:44
I see shenanigans ensuing with Red Hunters allied with the new SoB Priests...The shenanigans would be getting an inquisitor into the SoB list to make them valid allies :p Whoever wrote the rules clearly had no idea the WD dex existed, let alone the ebook, so this particular chapter tactic may not last long in it's current form.

Adyger
24-10-2013, 15:20
See, I read it that they can ally with SoB, and Grey Knights so long as the Grey Knights have an Inquisitor, but perhaps this is wrong...

zero88
24-10-2013, 15:40
The shenanigans would be getting an inquisitor into the SoB list to make them valid allies :p Whoever wrote the rules clearly had no idea the WD dex existed, let alone the ebook, so this particular chapter tactic may not last long in it's current form.
Sounds like a good FAQ question to ask!

Anyone else thinking infiltrating bolter scouts finally have a purpose with the Raptors chapter traits? Fluffy, survivable, cheap, and look like they could be quite effective.

A.T.
24-10-2013, 15:42
Sounds like a good FAQ question to ask!It has been mentioned a couple of times on the FW facebook page and they mentioned they will pass it along.

daveNYC
24-10-2013, 15:50
It's pretty clear that the allied detachment has to have an Inquisitor in it for this to work.
Given the sorry state of the SoB codex, just throw them a bone and let them take any Inquisitor from the GK book as an HQ.

Ironbone
24-10-2013, 16:33
Ha Ha Bray'arth Ashmantle with Salamanders chapter tactics, well I'm going to master craft one of his dreadnought close combat weapons and the heavy flamers are now twin-linked. Oh yes he has 4 hp and it will not die and a new warlord trait for no points increase.
He's not a character, so no master-crafting. And his warlord isn't that super ( as well as he would be warlord only if he's the only HQ, wich I doubt will haper often ). Any proper Monster will ( nomen omen ) smash him anyway, and 265 is sooo many pts :p. But to FW credit, he definietly have some uses.

Interesting question is how tank hunter/ordinance works on him.

metro_gnome
24-10-2013, 16:42
I quite like the look of Courbray and Narvez as special characters.
QFT... Courbray was always pretty excellent...
but Narvez has gotten a crap ton better... problem is the d3 gamble and not getting transports for your units...
Still 1 guaranteed free deepstrike and the possibility of 2 more... on a pretty reasonably priced Plasmagun HQ...
if you deepstruck your MM dev unit on your UM: Dev turn... you get the relentless that you can't get from drop pods...

I'm also happy that Braylock got cheaper...
a little disappointed that Titus didn't get a 12" Zealot aura... or a drop pod option... but scoring is nice...
i like what they did with Ivanus Enkomi... too bad mino CT's (and the CT's in general) are pretty naff...
and sorta crushed by what happened to Thulsa Kane... and ExEs in general...

Camman1984
24-10-2013, 16:43
I dont think the raptor thing is effective enough to make infiltrating bolter scouts a great deal better. Will help, but a 10 man unit is 5 hits 2-3 wounds including most of 1 rend.

On a similar note i would have quite likes to see a raptor scout upgrade, maybe 2pts for a bs of 4, make our legendary marksmen good with a sniper rifle. Or allow full marines to take sniper rifles.

Too late for wish listing though :p

Sirius
24-10-2013, 17:16
On the whole I have to say I'm pretty stoked with this release!
Now that I've been positive, I'm allowed to be negative :P

I have to say I'm more than a little disappointed with some of the chapters... Specifically the Minotaurs. They seem to be quite lacklustre... It seems to me they could have easily squeezed in the preferred enemy trait into that list as well and not been too overpowered. As it stands, you kinda need to pick Moloc to get that iconic rule now.

The characters are pretty ace too - I keep on spotting little oddities -
Moloc only getting three attacks (a Fearsome Combat chapter master?)
Lias Issadoon - Chapter master lacking an Iron Halo, AND only 3 attacks?
Lias gets Shrouded - Nice for some cover-save Shenanigans!

Inquisitor Engel
24-10-2013, 17:34
The characters are pretty ace too - I keep on spotting little oddities -
Moloc only getting three attacks (a Fearsome Combat chapter master?)
Lias Issadoon - Chapter master lacking an Iron Halo, AND only 3 attacks?
Lias gets Shrouded - Nice for some cover-save Shenanigans!

Three attacks isn't exactly anything to sneeze at... :eyebrows: There are the normal +1 bonuses they get as well.

Camman1984
24-10-2013, 18:02
Lias is also initiative 6 as well weirdly, very glad he found a suit of artificer armour too.

Warnoober
24-10-2013, 18:21
I just can't get over the tactics the Minotaurs got. I'm considering just calling them the Omega Spartans and giving them a generic chapter tactic.

Inquisitor Engel
24-10-2013, 19:27
I just can't get over the tactics the Minotaurs got. I'm considering just calling them the Omega Spartans and giving them a generic chapter tactic.

Except then you can't use Moloc, Enkomi or Hecaton Aiakos, sadly.

Baragash
24-10-2013, 20:38
I have to say I'm more than a little disappointed with some of the chapters... Specifically the Minotaurs. They seem to be quite lacklustre... It seems to me they could have easily squeezed in the preferred enemy trait into that list as well and not been too overpowered. As it stands, you kinda need to pick Moloc to get that iconic rule now.

Yeah, I realised a little later that that also means if you're playing Badab-themed games you need Moloc to give Minotaurs the ability that defines them being sent there in the first place.....which is quite sad IMO.

stainawarjar
24-10-2013, 20:48
Three attacks isn't exactly anything to sneeze at... :eyebrows: There are the normal +1 bonuses they get as well.

Molly has as many attacks as an imperial guard sergeant seeing as he only has one weapon. The main problem is that he has the same stats as a regular chapter master, but one less attack... makes no sense.

Ironbone
24-10-2013, 21:31
Lias gets Shrouded - Nice for some cover-save Shenanigans!
Well, he's chapter master of stealth focused chapter, so that's kinda make sense :p. It's just idiocy od core rules, that shrouded/stealth is connfired from IC to unit :shifty:. His 3A base also makes sens, as he is more focused on shooting than fighting in a close quaters. WS/BS 5/6 instead of 6/5 also refect this. Excelent addiction to my IG however :D.

Navar
24-10-2013, 21:44
Molly has as many attacks as an imperial guard sergeant seeing as he only has one weapon. The main problem is that he has the same stats as a regular chapter master, but one less attack... makes no sense.

He is cheaper than a Chapter Master with about the same gear.

Also he gets AP 2 attacks at initiative, and counts as having assault grenades despite being in TDA.

Baaltor
24-10-2013, 22:34
Molly has as many attacks as an imperial guard sergeant seeing as he only has one weapon. The main problem is that he has the same stats as a regular chapter master, but one less attack... makes no sense.

He's less furious than a standard CM, how does that make less sense? There's a standard stateline, but some CMs are WS 4, some are BS8, some are T6, and some have acute senses, move through cover, It Will Not Die, and "A fate Worse Than Death". There's no 'standard' CM stateline in truth, the numbers are a guideline.

ashc
25-10-2013, 06:01
I appreciate the big update, some interesting stuff to take a look at.

Memnos
25-10-2013, 07:33
Mantis Warriors have good synergy with Dark Eldar. Specifically with the king of Commoragh himself.

Reroll Seize the Initiative on a 4+?

Could be hilarious against the Alpha Strike crowd.

duffybear1988
25-10-2013, 07:37
QFT... Courbray was always pretty excellent...
but Narvez has gotten a crap ton better... problem is the d3 gamble and not getting transports for your units...
Still 1 guaranteed free deepstrike and the possibility of 2 more... on a pretty reasonably priced Plasmagun HQ...
if you deepstruck your MM dev unit on your UM: Dev turn... you get the relentless that you can't get from drop pods...

I'm also happy that Braylock got cheaper...
a little disappointed that Titus didn't get a 12" Zealot aura... or a drop pod option... but scoring is nice...
i like what they did with Ivanus Enkomi... too bad mino CT's (and the CT's in general) are pretty naff...
and sorta crushed by what happened to Thulsa Kane... and ExEs in general...

Don't forget Narvez gets scout as well - that always comes in handy for outflanking a sternguard squad etc.

metro_gnome
25-10-2013, 08:32
yeah... I think of Narvez with his Plasmand squad (up to 6 plasmaguns!) as being choice number 2 choice for teleport...
Guaranteed for your MM Devs... Narvez & co. if you get a second if not he outflanks... then a tac for third times lucky...
Don't know if I would risk sternies without a transport... If I did I'd switch out the devs for them...

MiyamatoMusashi
25-10-2013, 09:38
Given that Marines are probably the most common armies in the meta, globally, "Preferred Enemy: Marines" is an awesome special rule. If it were freely available, why would anyone not take Minotaurs (or their own chapter counting-as Minotaurs, or whatever)?

There has to be some kind of check and balance, and enforcing taking the Minotaurs Chapter Master to count your army as Minotaurs seems reasonable (it's unfortunate that it should be necessary, but it is).

metro_gnome
25-10-2013, 10:06
not sure why people are bothered by taking Molly to get PE:SM... they had to do that before...
an army that included only Enkomi did not get PE:SM... even though it was a minotaur army...

Dr Zoidberg
25-10-2013, 10:23
The Carcharodon's CT, combined with Tyberos' rules are leading me towards starting a small, heavily assault orientated force. Lots of blood splatter I'm thinking...

Camman1984
25-10-2013, 10:40
Was looking at having a small allied blood splatter force of sharks myself. But only ever desperate allies puts me off a bit.

Zogash
25-10-2013, 10:57
Am I just being obtuse or is RG Shadow-Captain Korvydae missing? What gives?! He's the one character I need an upgrade for and he's the only one left out. This is dumb...

Mr_Rose
25-10-2013, 11:03
He's not in any of the books mentioned as being updated by these rules?
Nor are veteran sergeants Culln and Haas of the Red Scorpions, and I'm sure there are dudes from other books left out.

Poncho160
25-10-2013, 11:11
Am I just being obtuse or is RG Shadow-Captain Korvydae missing? What gives?! He's the one character I need an upgrade for and he's the only one left out. This is dumb...

I don't think Korvydae needs an update, he is a member of the Raven Guard so he would just use their tactics.

Zogash
25-10-2013, 11:33
I don't think Korvydae needs an update, he is a member of the Raven Guard so he would just use their tactics.

You'd think so, yes. But RAW he doesn't, since he does not have the Chapter Tactics special rule.

I noticed after posting that the focus was on IA 9 and 10, rather than Korvydae's IA 8, but still... how hard can it be to just add him in? It's not like he needs a major overhaul, he just needs the Chapter Tactics SR.

Camman1984
25-10-2013, 11:49
Seeing as forgeworld is permission only anyway, just ask your opponent to allow the logical inclusion of ravenguard CT on him. I dont expect you will find anyone who disagrees.

Soldado
25-10-2013, 12:17
Everything is permission only, not just FW. Because if I have to ask permission to use FW, you have to ask me permission to use, say, Tigurius :)

Camman1984
25-10-2013, 12:27
So just do that with korvydae :) thats what i do. Its such a sensible additon.

Whay do people think of infantry characters getting smash?

Elam coubrays fire fall rule looks fun.

Sirius
25-10-2013, 13:11
Given that Marines are probably the most common armies in the meta, globally, "Preferred Enemy: Marines" is an awesome special rule. If it were freely available, why would anyone not take Minotaurs (or their own chapter counting-as Minotaurs, or whatever)?

There has to be some kind of check and balance, and enforcing taking the Minotaurs Chapter Master to count your army as Minotaurs seems reasonable (it's unfortunate that it should be necessary, but it is).

See, if it was JUST preferred enemy, and nothing else with chapter tactics - I wouldn't feel it was too overpowered. Makes them very singular in their use. Yes it'd be an uphill struggle for some marine players, but for other army's in tournaments - it'd be a much easier match.

I dunno... Even IF that errs a little too close to the overpowered line - I'm sure we can all agree that the current Minotaur chapter tactics are a little sub-par. But lets not look a gift horse in the mouth eh? At least we got a load of cool characters and alternative chapters! :)

I think I'm going to steer away from my minotaur army now (assembled but not painted) and edge towards Raptors or Space Sharks...

Inquisitor Engel
25-10-2013, 13:18
Seeing as forgeworld is permission only anyway, just ask your opponent to allow the logical inclusion of ravenguard CT on him. I dont expect you will find anyone who disagrees.

Forge World hasn't been "permission only" for some time. Both GW and Forge World themselves have said their stuff is allowed in normal games of 40k.

loveless
25-10-2013, 15:14
So...
Red Scorpions: Fantastic at first blush - mainly because I like Apothecaries and don't care to go to ground :p
Carcharadons: I see they're apparently utilizing Night Lords geneseed.
Raptors: I don't think I'm thinking this one through properly, as it feels a bit "meh"
Exorcists: Disappointing. I was hoping for some fun anti-Chaos or Psychic defense or something.
Mantis Warriors: Nice - looks like it would change the playstyle a fair bit without any major drawbacks.
Executioners: Conditional for Headhunters, but Bitter Mettle is nice.
Angels Revenant: Fluffy
Red Hunters: Nice...very nice. What book are these guys in?
Star Phantoms: High accuracy, but pretty limited otherwise.
Minotaurs: Uh... I thought these were the anti-Marine Marines...
Fire Hawks: Lovely. I enjoy some good burny death.
Astral Claws: Honestly, I'm disappointed here. The Stubborn makes perfect sense, but the Bike and Speeder bonus just feels weird.

Short version: I see a mixed bag from this. Some of them feel perfectly fitting, other ones feel like they changed the flavor of the chapter. Hmm...

Ironbone
25-10-2013, 15:54
Red Hunters: Nice...very nice. What book are these guys in?
Siege of Vraks part III :).

Ozendorph
25-10-2013, 16:27
So...

Short version: I see a mixed bag from this. Some of them feel perfectly fitting, other ones feel like they changed the flavor of the chapter. Hmm...

Agree with many of your points. Of course it's worth pointing out that a number of your complaints (Minotaurs, Exorcists) are addressed by their accompanying special characters, but of course that's not the same as having the rules in the Tactics themselves

Baragash
25-10-2013, 16:48
Given that Marines are probably the most common armies in the meta, globally, "Preferred Enemy: Marines" is an awesome special rule. If it were freely available, why would anyone not take Minotaurs (or their own chapter counting-as Minotaurs, or whatever)?

There has to be some kind of check and balance, and enforcing taking the Minotaurs Chapter Master to count your army as Minotaurs seems reasonable (it's unfortunate that it should be necessary, but it is).

Sure but if someone's taking it for that reason I don't really see what difference forcing them to take the Chapter Master makes, they'll just take the Chapter Master.

Camman1984
25-10-2013, 16:53
I think where people had to take the old characters to get the rules its no real loss as they are still having to take the characters, just gaining CT as well for free.

Some of them make little sense though, specifically minotaurs, why do they get better at killing space marines whilst their master is there? What, were they slacking off behind their bosses back? Is that why the other marines dont trust them? Poor work ethic?

metro_gnome
25-10-2013, 17:02
um no... they are just a SM chapter and one of their commanders has specialized in combating power armor...
just like Crimson Fists are just a SM chapter and one of their commanders has specialized in combating Orks...

zero88
25-10-2013, 18:57
So why does the Raptor Chapter Master have Outflank for his warlord ability? ...when as part of his chapter tactics he gets scout which automatically confers outflank. The only use I see is doing some unfluffy shenanigans like using it to outflank terminators or centurions.

loveless
25-10-2013, 19:01
um no... they are just a SM chapter and one of their commanders has specialized in combating power armor...
just like Crimson Fists are just a SM chapter and one of their commanders has specialized in combating Orks...

Difference here being that while the Crimson Fists (and, specifically, Kantor) honed their anti-Ork skills through an epic struggle, the Minotaurs were effectively custom-built to go after Marine forces that the High Lords of Terra had on their own personal "naughty" list.

This is covered by the Chapter Master's rules for the Minotaurs, but it feels a bit odd at the moment to only see them "properly utilized" when under Asterion's command.

However, someone pointed out something I had forgotten earlier - previously, to get any of these benefits, you had to take the character anyway. As such, anyone who was, in-game, making use of the anti-Marine rules was already taking the Chapter Master, so it's not like they're going to have to change their lists around.

In other words, while initially odd, it makes retroactive sense from a rules standpoint looking back at how it was previously handled. Ho hum.

...and I still sort of want a Minotaurs army...

Camman1984
25-10-2013, 19:23
I guess the main problem with tieing army wide fluffy rules into special characters is that it changes the way the army works at lower points. Like the 500 point minotaur kill team, hand picked out of the less well trained marines.

Navar
25-10-2013, 20:55
I guess the main problem with tieing army wide fluffy rules into special characters is that it changes the way the army works at lower points. Like the 500 point minotaur kill team, hand picked out of the less well trained marines.

While this isn't really news or rumor discussion anymore, talk to your opponent. At 500 point levels the game isn't really intended to be played anyway, but if you set up special games like that then design your own character, Sgt Bull, and give him the same rule for 1 of his attacks (or something.)

Last time I checked (and this has been a couple of years so I could be wrong) there was 1 codex that couldn't field a legal list at all at 500 points.

Baragash
25-10-2013, 23:31
However, someone pointed out something I had forgotten earlier - previously, to get any of these benefits, you had to take the character anyway. As such, anyone who was, in-game, making use of the anti-Marine rules was already taking the Chapter Master, so it's not like they're going to have to change their lists around.

In other words, while initially odd, it makes retroactive sense from a rules standpoint looking back at how it was previously handled. Ho hum.

Because when the original lists were designed, all the SM characters were required to unlock their chapter's traits. That's no longer the case so it doesn't make sense to do what they've done.

It only makes sense where the benefit is specific to forces that are led by/include that character.

Brotheroracle
26-10-2013, 03:06
Well I play Minotaurs and I'm optimistic... I mean Crusader is not a bad rule, reliable run moves can win games. I've lost games over needing one more inch out of a run roll, and if I'm going to give up a turn of shooting for a unit I really want a decent run roll.

Bonuses to moral checks- handy for not having a backfield element roll boxcars and drop off the table because ablative wound #2 took a bullet for a useful member of your dev squad.

+1 to charges in enemy deployment- cute little bonus for playing a drop pod honor guard squad or an ironclad.

Better then being an Ultramarine.

MajorWesJanson
26-10-2013, 05:20
Well I play Minotaurs and I'm optimistic... I mean Crusader is not a bad rule, reliable run moves can win games. I've lost games over needing one more inch out of a run roll, and if I'm going to give up a turn of shooting for a unit I really want a decent run roll.

Bonuses to moral checks- handy for not having a backfield element roll boxcars and drop off the table because ablative wound #2 took a bullet for a useful member of your dev squad.

+1 to charges in enemy deployment- cute little bonus for playing a drop pod honor guard squad or an ironclad.

Better then being an Ultramarine.

Crusader also gives you a boost in sweep roles, letting you potentially catch those pesky eldar or daemons.

cswang
26-10-2013, 06:22
Difference here being that while the Crimson Fists (and, specifically, Kantor) honed their anti-Ork skills through an epic struggle, the Minotaurs were effectively custom-built to go after Marine forces that the High Lords of Terra had on their own personal "naughty" list.

This is covered by the Chapter Master's rules for the Minotaurs, but it feels a bit odd at the moment to only see them "properly utilized" when under Asterion's command.

However, someone pointed out something I had forgotten earlier - previously, to get any of these benefits, you had to take the character anyway. As such, anyone who was, in-game, making use of the anti-Marine rules was already taking the Chapter Master, so it's not like they're going to have to change their lists around.

In other words, while initially odd, it makes retroactive sense from a rules standpoint looking back at how it was previously handled. Ho hum.

...and I still sort of want a Minotaurs army...


Isn't that rather in keeping with their background though? The Minotaurs almost exclusively fight together as an entire Chapter, under Moloc's command. Sure, it's a bit of a bummer that you need a specific character to really get the full flavor of the Chapter, but I wonder if that was a deliberate attempt to translate that aspect of the background to the tabletop.

gitburna
26-10-2013, 17:37
He's not in any of the books mentioned as being updated by these rules?
Nor are veteran sergeants Culln and Haas of the Red Scorpions, and I'm sure there are dudes from other books left out.

I'd guess they didn't look at these on the basis that "we'll look at them when GW updates Nids, Guard and Orks"

jackers
26-10-2013, 18:40
Crusader also gives you a boost in sweep roles, letting you potentially catch those pesky eldar or daemons.

daemons don't run away though, they take daemonic instability tests then stay locked. definitely useful against eldar though.

I really like the look of these updated rules, as I have been planning on starting a fire hawks army for a small 'chapter wars' narrative campaign with my gaming group.

MiyamatoMusashi
26-10-2013, 22:54
Sure but if someone's taking it for that reason I don't really see what difference forcing them to take the Chapter Master makes, they'll just take the Chapter Master.

(1) His points value takes into account the buffs he provides to the whole army. So you're paying points for the ability, not getting it for free. (2) Taking that Chapter Master restricts your options to take something else as your HQ, so you're paying a cost in flexibility as well.

Navar
27-10-2013, 20:36
(1) His points value takes into account the buffs he provides to the whole army. So you're paying points for the ability, not getting it for free.

Not really. He is cheaper than a C:SM Chapter Master with more or less the same gear.

Sandlemad
18-11-2013, 16:53
FW has updated these. Minor changes to Asterion Moloc (got an extra attack), Lias Issodon (updated his warlord trait to Master of Ambush), Pellas Mir'san (added his CCW), Elam Courbray (his command squad can now take jump packs) and the Red Hunter chapter tactics (just to mention the SoB codex).

ashc
18-11-2013, 19:35
Is that it? - If so thanks for that Sandlemad, I downloaded the pdfs but have not had a chance to read them yet.

Camman1984
18-11-2013, 20:52
Elam's command squad get jump packs! Thats an amazing change for them i bet shrike is even more angry now.

MagicHat
18-11-2013, 22:24
Elam's command squad get jump packs! Thats an amazing change for them i bet shrike is even more angry now.

And they cost as much as bikes, because... I guess GW/FW plays nothing but cityfights?

metro_gnome
04-12-2013, 09:47
I don't know if two weeks counts as thredomancy... in my defense this was still on the first page of rumors...
So I'm sorry if this is misplaced... but asking FW questions in the Rules forum results in tumbleweeds...
Maybe a move to general?

I was taking a closer look at Ivanus Enkomi and I noticed that he comes standard with the Auxiliary Grenade Launcher...
but he offers an upgrade so I was comparing this new gun to a gun I never used before to see what advantage it has...
but for the life of me I cannot find the AGL anywhere in the new SM book... It's also not listed anywhere in IA:9 or IA:10...
When I look at the old 5thed version I see that taking the upgrade would actually costs me the S6 krak grenade option...
Sure there are advantages... Master crafted, +1A, AP3 and TL frags... but the inexplicable loss of krak gives me pause...
he also loses the ability to fire another weapon at the same time... he doesn't have one (even tho the model has a BP)...
but he could toss a hand grenade while he launches another... If in fact the standard load out is even legal...

Anybody using this guy? How do you resolve this?