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biccat
24-10-2013, 15:19
Here's an issue that came up in a game over the weekend. Hopefully the community here can help us figure out how it should have been played according to the rules.

First, Red positioned a single Sabretusk in front of Green's horde, angled so that Green could not overrun into the rest of Red's army:

http://i.imgur.com/M0ATnM9.png

Green declared a charge against Red's Sabretusk. Rather than moving directly forward, he wheeled the horde by "pivoting the unit around one of its front corners." Green did not move forward at all.

http://i.imgur.com/oTpaZ3K.png

Here's where we ran into trouble. Green had contacted the enemy, but could not perform a legal wheel (pivoting around a front corner) to "close the door." Green's position was that, in this case because he couldn't close the door, Red had to close the door:

http://i.imgur.com/8FtrgGD.png

Red disagreed, saying that Green should pivot his unit about Red's front corner, even if it resulted in some models moving backwards:

http://i.imgur.com/qEBX5pQ.png

Should Green "close the door" to Red, even if doing so requires Green to make an illegal wheel; or should Red close the door to Green?

Mr_Rose
24-10-2013, 15:29
When the charging unit can't wheel to align, the charged unit must. Since a legal wheel by the chargers would not, in fact, align the two units, the charged unit must align instead.
Or, in other words, Red is being silly; telling their opponent to break a rule so that they don't have to follow another.

theunwantedbeing
24-10-2013, 15:35
So....green thinks he doesn't have to align because he can't pivot around the front corner because it's not in base contact with the enemy?

See the diagram at the bottom of page 20 of the rulebook.
Aligning to the enemy.
They pivot around the point of contact.

Red would only ever have to align to green if green was physically incapable of doing so, which is usually because there are units/impassable terrain in the way.

Ero-Senin
24-10-2013, 15:50
As far as i can see green has overcomplicated the issue by wheeling intially as there doesn't seem to be a need. As far as I can see green can just charge straight foward, make contact with red, then close the door.

tankrothchild
24-10-2013, 15:56
If green isn't blocked by another unit or impassible terrain, green must close the door. As there are neither in the image, green must close the door.

biccat
24-10-2013, 16:01
So....green thinks he doesn't have to align because he can't pivot around the front corner because it's not in base contact with the enemy?

No, Green thinks he doesn't have to align because he physically cannot wheel to close the door.

p. 20 "Once the charging unit contacts the enemy unit, it must perform a second, bonus wheel..."

"A wheel maneuver is a basic turn performed by pivoting the unit around one of its front corners"

If Green were to align, it would not be by wheeling.


As far as i can see green has overcomplicated the issue by wheeling intially as there doesn't seem to be a need. As far as I can see green can just charge straight foward, make contact with red, then close the door.

Even if Green were to move straight ahead, Green would still be in the position of having to "close the door" by something other than a "wheel."

Romark
24-10-2013, 16:21
No, Green thinks he doesn't have to align because he physically cannot wheel to close the door.

p. 20 "Once the charging unit contacts the enemy unit, it must perform a second, bonus wheel..."

"A wheel maneuver is a basic turn performed by pivoting the unit around one of its front corners"

If Green were to align, it would not be by wheeling.

I think if you watched any game this "rule" will often be "broken". This is saying unless a charge is head on, or the corner clips the frontage of the charged unit, the defenders would close the door. This isn't the case. You will charge, and even if wheeled, you'll correct to be flush on the unit. Just about every charge made on my War Hydra ever will be illegal by these terms.

I think this is trying to get a loophole which doesn't really exist for strategic advantage.

Smogg
24-10-2013, 16:30
As illustrated on p20 (illustration 4) the "Bonus wheel" also called closing the door is in fact not necessarily done by pivoting the unit around one of its front corners. So green must align to the enemy following the example on Illustration 4, which they can do in this case.

MOMUS
24-10-2013, 22:25
Who does green think he is?!?

This is the very basics of redirecting. Nothing stopping green closing the doors as stated, so he will be redirected.

Red seems like a sound dude, shame he got ripped off

NurglesRot
25-10-2013, 06:11
Looks to me green realised he got redirected and won't be able to overrun so gamed the rules to get the result he wanted. It's that shady grey area where a player follows the "rules" as they were but in an abusive and douche manner - typically someone I wouldn't enjoy playing against.

InquisitorAffe
25-10-2013, 06:17
The diagram on p20 could not be anymore 100% absolutely clear at resolving it. At that point all green is left with is the argument that "diagrams and examples aren't "Rules" only the actual written rules count." Which has been tried, but rarely gets you far outside an internet forum :)