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View Full Version : Am I the only one who thinks the FW chapter tactics are horrible?



Brother Horatio
25-10-2013, 21:28
As it says in the title of the thread. The reviews I've seen in some threads seem mostly favorable, which I don't understand at all. Some of the Chapter Tactics seem fine to me, fluffy and fairly competitive, like the Carcharodons' tactics. Then you have the Minotaurs rules, which will not affect 90% of gameplay, as opposed to the Fire Hawks rules, which are ahead of the rest of the chapter tactics by a massive degree.

It's not even a fear of "oh, now all we'll see are Fire Raptors scoring assault marine hand flamer spam lists" that frustrates me, its just looking at the tactics all gathered side by side and wondering how FW's design team (do they have one?) could see it and say, sure, those all look equally powerful.

Also, some of the rules deal with such fiddly bits of rules minutia that the only reason I can see for their inclusion is to slow down game play while you flip through your Imperial Armor book. The Mneomic Redaction Protocols rule for the Red Hunters is needlessly complicated, and the Angels Revenant get different rules while fighting Necrons. Why?! The Crimson Fists hate orks, they get preferred enemy orks, the end. Why complicate the rules for this chapter based on their gripe with the Crons, other than to make things complicated for their own sake?

FW rules have never been my thing, but these chapter tactics seem especially egregious. Anyone else seeing this or am I going to do my old man grumbling in the corner alone?

Scammel
25-10-2013, 21:31
The collectives hearts of every other faction in the game bleed for you. The Chaos fanbase in particular really sympathises with your plight - that the special rules for your 1000-strong, textbook-enslaved sub-faction have issues.

So yes, grumbling in the corner. :p

DoctorTom
25-10-2013, 21:44
As it says in the title of the thread.

Yes, it's just you. ;)

Navar
25-10-2013, 21:46
Yes you are the only one.

Minotaurs for example are great if you build your list for it. No Panic tests do to shooting allow for some cool tactical options that your leadership 8 combat squads didn't have before.

Some aren't as obvious as others, and some are more powerful than others, but that has always been forgeworld's strongest asset. They are willing to make something a bit underpowered to fit with a theme.

I hope the corner at least a a good view of the rest of us having fun over here in the center of the room.

The only thing I have a problem with that needs to be addressed is the ability to be battle brothers with Sisters of Battle.

Brother Horatio
25-10-2013, 22:04
Yes you are the only one.

Minotaurs for example are great if you build your list for it. No Panic tests do to shooting allow for some cool tactical options that your leadership 8 combat squads didn't have before.

Some aren't as obvious as others, and some are more powerful than others, but that has always been forgeworld's strongest asset. They are willing to make something a bit underpowered to fit with a theme.

I hope the corner at least a a good view of the rest of us having fun over here in the center of the room.

The only thing I have a problem with that needs to be addressed is the ability to be battle brothers with Sisters of Battle.

Hah! And suddenly, seeing obvious design flaws with these rules means I'm a WAAC, powerlisting guy who can't enjoy fluff or interesting rules. I'm in the middle of a multi-month 40k campaign with RP tie-ins and homebrewed rules, characters, scenarios, ect., and yes, we allow FW stuff. In short, your perception is off.

Not liking the new chapter tactics doesn't make me the "unfun" guy. What I want to see are these interesting chapters with cool fluff represented with rules that fall between either having a negligible effect on gameplay (Minotaurs) or being obviously higher powered than the others (Fire Hawks). That balance was struck very well and very simply in C:SM, and forgeworld just dropped the ball on it entirely. If I'm the only one who thinks the Chapter Tactics are disappointing, fine. The purpose of the thread was to find out if anyone else saw that they suck.

Flame Boy
25-10-2013, 22:12
I think some of the rules look fun, but I must be honest, game balance didn't even occur to me as I read them. I think that's more due to the rarity of me playing the game than anything. I looked at the Fire Hawks rules and thought "ah, nice, hand flamers, shame my own army doesn't embody the "hawk" part of the rules". I did think some of the rules seems a bit too complicated and could have done with some streamlining, personally.

Navar
25-10-2013, 22:23
Hah! And suddenly, seeing obvious design flaws with these rules means I'm a WAAC, powerlisting guy who can't enjoy fluff or interesting rules. I'm in the middle of a multi-month 40k campaign with RP tie-ins and homebrewed rules, characters, scenarios, ect., and yes, we allow FW stuff. In short, your perception is off.

Not liking the new chapter tactics doesn't make me the "unfun" guy. What I want to see are these interesting chapters with cool fluff represented with rules that fall between either having a negligible effect on gameplay (Minotaurs) or being obviously higher powered than the others (Fire Hawks). That balance was struck very well and very simply in C:SM, and forgeworld just dropped the ball on it entirely. If I'm the only one who thinks the Chapter Tactics are disappointing, fine. The purpose of the thread was to find out if anyone else saw that they suck.

First off I wasn't the first person to suggest that you were an old man grumbling in the corner alone. I did assume that this was unfun, but I didn't have to go very far out on the proverbial limb to make the jump of logic that requires equivalency between an old man grumbling in the corner alone and an unfun gentleman.

All of my perceptions of you are because of your one post. If you would like to change said perceptions then this very confrontational (and a bit irrational) rebuttal are not a good way to start.

With that said I reject the notion that the Chapter Tactics in C:SM are "very well balanced." Some are obviously better than others. In fact there have been several discussions on these very forums to that end.

You seem to be caught up with the Minotaurs Chapter Tactic, but I think you are off base. Maybe I have been playing wrong, but I cannot think of a game where panic checks haven't come up due to shooting. I think that is a good ability.

The pinning test likely won't come up that often, but makes you MUCH more likely to succeed.

I don't play in such a way that crusader would come up that often, but it is great if you build your list for it. I know that again almost every game I have units run, and I don't always roll 6s on those dice, and when your assault terminators win combat they are MUCH more likely to wipe out whatever they were in combat with in the even that they break.

It isn't as obvious, and you have to build your list for it, but I don't think that Chapter Tactics (Minotaurs) is a bad as you are making it out to be.

You are correct that not liking the new chapter tactics doesn't make you unfun. You are entitled to your opinion. I don't happen to share it. I couldn't be happier with the rules for the Sons of Medusa.

Still Standing
25-10-2013, 22:33
Forgeworld were obviously going for fluffy, rather than powerful (or not). I like it that way.

Ironbone
25-10-2013, 23:15
Ha, problem is they sometimes go far too fluffy, and create (more rarely tham GW, but still far too often ) monsters of rules :p.

duffybear1988
25-10-2013, 23:39
See I don't get why some people are moaning. Before the recent marine codex none of them had super duper special rules and yet marines worked just fine.

You shouldn't think of them as being a nerf. They are slight boosts that you can use if you like. Remember that nobody is forcing you to use a particular one. Pick and choose whatever fits.

Rat Catcher
25-10-2013, 23:43
See I don't get why some people are moaning. Before the recent marine codex none of them had super duper special rules and yet marines worked just fine.

You shouldn't think of them as being a nerf. They are slight boosts that you can use if you like. Remember that nobody is forcing you to use a particular one. Pick and choose whatever fits.

If they're anything like C:SM, then yes, you are indeed forced to use the ones relevant to your chapter.

Still Standing
25-10-2013, 23:46
Forced? Who is forcing you? If you want your painted plastic representations of fictional futuristic armoured super mutant soldiers to use one set of abstract rules or another set of abstract rules, what's the difference?

Camman1984
26-10-2013, 00:04
It just gives you yet more variety to flavour your army how you want, whats not too like. Everyone and his mum plays space marines at least some of the time so it is great that there is what 15? different themes you might see.

Yeah some of them are better than others but unless you are playing a tournie or an opponent who has forgotten these are toys, whose to say you cant have the ultramarine (IF) devastator company, or the white scars (RG) jump marines, just as long as you tell the opponent before you start and dont try to pull any dirty suprises.

My personal tactic is raptors, i love that chapter and always have, sure the CT isnt the most powerful, but its essentially a free bonus that puts my marines keen marksmanship into game. And i love it. Its also got more new rules in it than any of the supplements that gw have released and its available to download. Which is a gift considering the way even small books are priced.

Mortimer
26-10-2013, 00:16
you are indeed forced to use the ones relevant to your chapter.

You are only forced to use SC relevant to your chosen trait.. Can't take chronus or Tigarius in you IH for example

Doesn't mean your highly converted IH painted thusly have to be IH in traits at all.

IcedCrow
26-10-2013, 00:17
I like them and i approve.

Soldado
26-10-2013, 00:25
So, executioners generic chapter master, with BB, SE, AA and bike with added instadeath in a bike CDM squad tooled for CC?

Champions of Order I say!

Baaltor
26-10-2013, 00:52
As it says in the title of the thread. The reviews I've seen in some threads seem mostly favorable, which I don't understand at all. Some of the Chapter Tactics seem fine to me, fluffy and fairly competitive, like the Carcharodons' tactics. Then you have the Minotaurs rules, which will not affect 90% of gameplay....


Okay, what? I've only just looked at the Minotaurs rules because I glazed over them because I don't like them the first time. But I went back and read them because of the complaints leveled against them. No, they're stellar. They're not always super useful, but I doubt that even the second trait will only see use in 1/10 games. The pinning/panic thing is great too. It think they're better than the Salamander traits, and definitely on the weaker side of the traits because of how indirect they are, but not to a notable degree.

Rolsheen
26-10-2013, 08:20
As it says in the title of the thread.

Just you.
Some of the chapter tactics are obviously strong, others are more subtle. I can't see any that are horrible

Ironbone
26-10-2013, 10:12
Well, exsorcists are just missed opportunity. It will so nice to go into SM/GK rules crossover ( wich exsorcist chapter fluffwise in fact is ), instead of just bland "use generic CT of your choice". Duh, i can do so without any premission :p.

ashc
26-10-2013, 10:22
there is another thread to discuss fw chapter tactics release already. I think the tactics are ok, most look like fielding the relevant character gives you the most rules to play with, but i think that was expected.

Killgore
26-10-2013, 16:50
Since when were FW in the business of making balanced rules?

it has always been either the rule of cool or themed when it comes to FW rules.

these chapter and character rules are a fantastic addition by FW and I look forward to more in the future