PDA

View Full Version : Thoughts on the new Isengard Troll



j1kob
06-06-2006, 17:23
What do you think about the new ISENGARD TROLL

In case you havent seen it:

http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h172/j1kob/image5.jpg

...Well the first sentence pretty much explains it all so... what do think about it; how you think you could use it in an isengard force, how you could paint it, or even if you think the model is just plain stupid.

-j1kob

Gondorian
06-06-2006, 18:03
I think it's brillient. It has a shield the size of a door!
I think the stats may have a defense that is one higher than that of a mordor troll, probably very similar in all other respects.

From a tactical point of view, I think you can stop worrying about the flanks of the phalanx with this guy on one side. It will add more options to the army of the white hand.

I'd probably paint it like I did my cave troll with tin bitz highlighted with boltgun metal on the armour, but I'm no master at painting.

KingM
06-06-2006, 18:13
I know a lot of people have been complaining about it not fitting with the background, but purely looking at it as a model, I like it. I prefer the head without the helmet though

Long_Fang
06-06-2006, 21:06
I'm not LOTR wiz,but how doesn't it fit with the background? There are trolls everywhere. All Saruman has to do is find a way to exert control over one...and that doesn't even require magic...just food ;)

I love the model! Super imposing. I'd also have to agree that it would have 1 higher defense then the Mordor troll. Since it has a shield it can shield!!

Makaber
06-06-2006, 21:31
I think it's okay. I don't think Isengard really needed one, and while I might get one and paint it up, I doubt it'll see much action, since I feel the best asset the White Hand has is their rock hard standard infantry backed by berserkers, and the massive cost of a troll would cut into that.

When (if) I do get one, I'll probably give it a huge hammer and paint it up with a "living siege engine" mindset.

jansenm
06-06-2006, 23:03
that model looks great! I am a big fan of LOTR
however I dont play it. I collect them and paint it up
looks like I have to get one of those

jansenm
06-06-2006, 23:06
I just found a better one!
hang on...

I dont know if its the same box set maybe its plastc but nonetheless

http://uk.games-workshop.com/download/popup.htm?/whitedwarfonline/issues/wdo0014/images/sp-lotr2.jpg

Dr Death
07-06-2006, 08:00
I personally hate the concept to the hills but it is quite a nice sculpt. There are many reasons as to why Isengard shouldnt and thus far doesnt have access to trolls which for the benefit of Warseer i shall now explain.

Alot of reasoning against the troll boils down to the matter of sunlight and vitally how trolls notoriously turn to stone when hit by it. Saruman spent alot of time developing and building an army resistant to sunlight. His forces are described as containing Uruk hai, "half-orcs and goblin-men" and dunlendings. His method of waging war on rohan was to attack it frequently and hard. Day night or anything in between his troops would race across the riddermark burning, pillaging, destroying, killing. Now trolls are not great at such a tactic seeing as they would only be able to move by night and are very slow. How Saruman would fit such an addition into his forces without them seriously upsetting his battle plan is somewhat hard to fathom.

Some people have countered this by saying maybe these trolls are Olog hai (they certainly look like it) and thus resistant to sunlight. But Olog hai were bred by Sauron alone and were never seen beyond the borders of mirkwood. This is stated explicitly by Tolkien. So essentially Saruman's trolls would be of the garden (ornament) variety.

The other big argument against the trolls is that they're never mentioned. In the many clashes with Saruman's forces not once are these hulking brutes referenced despite the fact you could hardly miss them. We have a detailed account of the forces issuing from isengard recalled in 'flotsam and jetsam' by Merry and Pippin, and yet despite them going into quite exceptional detail mentioning "slant eyed" men and a veritable catalogue of attributes and armaments, never do they say "oh and there was a company of giant trolls clad head to foot in armour that enless you saw them must be still roaming the riddermark". There isnt really a conveinient "grey area" for the troll to fit.

The final real argument to consider is a matter of gameplay. Giving Isengard a troll kind of upsets the balance of evil theming. Its always been the case since the flourishing of the game that Isengard have been the elite group of warriors with little in the way of "heavy support". Mordor have always been the hordes of fairly ineffectual troops with potent heroes and monsters to pull them through. Adding a troll to Isengard kind of upsets the balance of power a little in what was a very well tuned and characterful force.

Dr Death

Shadowheart
07-06-2006, 08:12
I wholeheartedly agree, this is an all-out bad idea. The only good thing is that you can use the model itself to convert some more Mordor trolls out of.

In addition to breaking with the film, the book and the flavour of the game 'army', it's a completely uninspired concept. It's a troll with Uruk-hai kit, that's it, that's the whole thing. You could go on and on like that. Shire Ents? Morgul chariots?

Osbad
07-06-2006, 09:04
It is one of the worst things they have done with the game so far. Pointless in games terms, background-destroying as well. It's only purpose is to squeeze a few extra quid out the pockets of those with a taste-bypass at the expense of those of us who actually care.

A horrible excrescence, and one of the reasons I am increasingly less involved in anything "Official" to do with the game.

GW are going off on a fancy of their own with the game, and I simply don't want to go with them. It's no longer much to do with "the Lord of the Rings" and is everything to do with the imaginings of GW and how it can squeeze a few more quid out of those left playing.

Chaplin Davius
07-06-2006, 09:19
The best troll yet it almost makes me want to collect an Isengard army, but that would just get in the way of my rohan.

Later days

primarch16
07-06-2006, 10:02
Its just upsetting the balance, trolls are in Mordor armies, Isnegard have powerful foot troops. The model isnt too bad I supose, but I hate the idea with a fiery rage.

Gondorian
07-06-2006, 13:37
At the end of the day Games Workshop needs to make money with LOTR. The day GW can't get a few quid out of LOTR, which will hopefully never come, will be the day they stop producing it.

Also, consider the fact that as they only own certain rights to produce certain figures, they have to exploit every asset if they want to release a range of new things to keep old players interested and attract new.

Now many of you are upset because there is no evidence that any trolls were ever at Isenguard. I agree with this and am a very big fan of the books aswell. However, this won't mean that I rise up in fury, because I simply won't use one. I will buy one and paint it but I doubt it will ever see battle.
If someone tries to explain some fluff for them, you don't really have to listen, just nod, smile and then go and enjoy the game.
The only reasonable explanation I could give, if I were so inclined, would be that they are used for quarrying in Saruman's pits doing the heavy work, are few in number and that the armoured ones are there to keep the slave ones in line. They were never meant for battle and simply drowned when the flood came.

In regard to upseting the balance of the game, how will such a thing occur?

Given that mordor trolls are already expensive how much will these guys cost? Given that the White Hand have expensive troops as it is, you will be looking at a small army indeed. How would an entire army of these differ from an army of Mordor trolls.
The biggest effect I can see it having game wise is to improve the playing ability of Dunlendings who have other problems and require a boost.
Taking one of these will give you as many disadvantages as benefits.

Again, I know it is unthemed and differs from the book but you'll never get an exact replication of LOTR on the table top. I mean, according to the book Elrond should never have been a commander at the last alliance but he made it into the film that way and so made it into the game that way.

Just my view.

Dr Death
07-06-2006, 15:20
Well the thing is Gondorian that dealing with GW is like educating a small child. In order for them to behave and to get them to do what we want we have to teach them that they get no clemency by doing things we dont.

As it stands GW have enough in their liscence to keep going comfortably on things mentioned in the books (if they can make Eorl, they definately have enough room to make things that do actually get an explicit mention in lotr and the hobbit). There is no need for them to essentially rape the text in order to get a release. What about rohan militia? What about Dunlending battering rams? What about Elfhelm or Grimbold? All those things they've missed in their Two Towers release schedule whereas the troll they've included.

As i was said, dealing with GW requires we treat them like a small child- We nag at them to do their chores (known generally as "things that are in the book") and we take away their toys when they do bad (or take away the money we feed into them in this case). However, nothing less than the vast majority of Lotr collectors would have to forsake any given purchase will convince GW that an addition was not appreciated and so this is a form of propaganda showing others the folly of their ways in liking the concept and hopefully convincing some to not buy the troll just for the sake of it being a nice model. You're very much our target audience Gondorian because you know full well its wrong and accept it and yet you propose to buy it anyway.

All of this hopefully will make GW learn their lesson for next time.

Dr Death

The Judge
07-06-2006, 15:31
GW have already learned the lesson that Trolls sell, and they're exploiting it, nothing further.

There is no background reason for including them, they wanted to do it because trolls sell, and many people want a troll packed out in Uruk-style armour. If they want t sell another Troll varient, I would expect an Easterling-troll sometime in the future.

Gondorian
07-06-2006, 16:19
I'm buying it for painting only and as I'm prioritising the completion of my armies it will not become part of my collection for quite some time (the time it takes me to finish around 5 seperate armies). I'm also buying it because despite everything else, I like the way the model looks.

I did not mean to come across as for the troll or against it, merely to present opinions from the other side of the argument and to express my view that I don't think it will upset game balance.

As I recall, although this was a different situation, there was quite some protest on the release of the Swan knights Of Dol-Amroth. The opinion that they looked too strange or something similar. There was a suggestion of players refusing to buy the models. My knowledge on this is quite sketchy so please nobody take it as gospel.
Are people suggesting the same should be considered for the Isenguard troll?

I'm just trying to hear other views here. Hearing other views is my purpose for posting on these forums.

j1kob
07-06-2006, 17:07
I must admit... and I think you all can agree with me, that this, really is another sign that LotR is really running out of ideas. I think that they really have too little to do much more on, and that Lotr is really going downhill. Especially when it comes to making stuff up (such as the Isengard Troll). Isn't Lord Of the rings meant to actually be based off a novel that can not really change.. unlike warhammer and warhammer 40k, all the facts have already been written, and it kind of annoys me to see such a good line of models and such go extremely downhill.


I really like the model though... not so sure I like the one bearing the spear.

-J1kob

Messiah
07-06-2006, 17:54
I would expect an Easterling-troll sometime in the future.

Like the troll-men of far Harad? ;)

Gondorian
07-06-2006, 18:58
I must admit... and I think you all can agree with me, that this, really is another sign that LotR is really running out of ideas. I think that they really have too little to do much more on, and that Lotr is really going downhill. Especially when it comes to making stuff up (such as the Isengard Troll). Isn't Lord Of the rings meant to actually be based off a novel that can not really change.. unlike warhammer and warhammer 40k, all the facts have already been written, and it kind of annoys me to see such a good line of models and such go extremely downhill.


I really like the model though... not so sure I like the one bearing the spear.

-J1kob

GW may be running out of ideas, but LOTR is in no way going downhill. Even if they cover every possible unit, which would take several years, they could simply rerelease several of the sets in new poses using newer technology. LOTR is still relatively new when compared to Warhammer and Warhammer Fantasy and it has long life to live still.

Let them come! There is one system yet in Games workshop that still draws breath.

Forgotmytea
07-06-2006, 20:47
Let them come! There is one system yet in Games workshop that still draws breath.

ROFL! If I had room, that would be siggied :D

Anyway, on topic, I do like it a lot. The armour that, rather than being one-piece, is bashed together out of lots of pieces, and yet still retains the "Isengard" fashion is wonderful. That thing has just inspired me to start up my Isengard force again :)

Sorry Moria, you're on hold again! :p

-Forgotmytea

Reabe
08-06-2006, 08:53
I like the model and the idea. It's awesome.

And for the "It's not in the book" moaners, I'm going to buy two or more for my army. :)

Notna_Highborn
09-06-2006, 19:43
I think it's cool but it would have been cooler if the arm with the sword would have been raised. And about the colour scheme, well you can paint some blood on the armour and then it will be perfect. I'd like to have an Isengard Troll.

Vampiric16
22-04-2009, 16:21
There is a feasible reason for the creation of Isengard trolls.
Say for instance, that Isengard defeated Rohan at Helm's deep. The next target would be Minis Tirith, a far more heavily fortified fortress than helm's deep. This would require a great deal of manpower and strength of arms, more so than the siege of Helm's deep. Trolls would be of great use, acting as beasts of burden and shock troops.
There is also the idea that at some point Saruman would try to challenge Sauron, and would need some sort of counter for the mordor trolls.
Just my 2 cents.

Chainaxe07
23-04-2009, 20:31
What do you think about the new ISENGARD TROLL

In case you havent seen it:

http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h172/j1kob/image5.jpg

...Well the first sentence pretty much explains it all so... what do think about it; how you think you could use it in an isengard force, how you could paint it, or even if you think the model is just plain stupid.

-j1kob

I dont like how new line cinema portrayed trolls as a whole, too inhuman in shape (i always thought of Tolkien's trolls a bit like hairy giants), so no wonder i dont like the model.
I have, however, seen a brilliant conversion using the helmeted head.
I suppose that, and maybe some armour plate, was the only original part used (ok, i was forgetting the shield and sword), while all the rest was green stuff. It was sculpted (and painted)to look like an oversized uruk-hai (with a regular number of fingers, longer limbs and an overall thinner frame) and, believe me, it was kinda cool!
Quite a powerful piece in game terms too.

Faeslayer
23-04-2009, 20:54
It looks cool. I like it, and would buy several if I played Isengard.

Sarah S
23-04-2009, 21:52
There is a feasible reason for the creation of Isengard trolls.
Say for instance, that Isengard defeated Rohan at Helm's deep. The next target would be Minis Tirith, a far more heavily fortified fortress than helm's deep. This would require a great deal of manpower and strength of arms, more so than the siege of Helm's deep. Trolls would be of great use, acting as beasts of burden and shock troops.
There is also the idea that at some point Saruman would try to challenge Sauron, and would need some sort of counter for the mordor trolls.
Just my 2 cents.

Your powers of necromancy are legendary. You aren't from Dol Guldur by any chance are you?

Quannum
23-04-2009, 23:38
This is a thread that's what, 3 years old?

Faeslayer
23-04-2009, 23:40
This is a thread that's what, 3 years old?

It's just as relevant today! :D

The Muster of Rohan
24-04-2009, 11:46
Your powers of necromancy are legendary. You aren't from Dol Guldur by any chance are you?

Look at who resurrected it - Vampiric16. I'm expecting a swarm of bats through the window any minute now...

Lyinar
24-04-2009, 12:34
Well, since the thread "lives" again...

I might actually get one. For scenery.

My idea? Saruman did some experimentation with adding Trolls to his army, and it didn't work out so well.

Thus, I shall paint it up as a statue wearing armour. :D

Vannatos
24-04-2009, 20:41
I really like the troll model. I picked one up today and really liked how it went together. Although there isn't any mention of the Trolls in Isengard, Trolls make a great source of labor espically if they worked underground. As effective as a bunch of orcs can be at pulling trees and a source of labor. Trolls can do alot more heavy work. I see Isengard trolls being more or less a defense or underground fighter. An attack out on open lands would have to be planned to store the trolls safely so they do not turn into stone when the sun rises.

Thats my thoughts on it and the whole idea of WotR is a bunch of what if's and re-enactments as well. so lets not go to over the top on this.

HsojVvad
26-04-2009, 00:40
Well guys there is a perfect explanation why you didn't see Isengard Trolls. And it is according to fluff. They didn't come out at nite. When we saw Isengard, it was during the day, and when we saw Isengard at nite, it was on top of Orthanc and coudln't see thm outside since we were so high.

Perfect fluff explantion. Just because Pippen or Merry didn't see them didn't mean they didn't exsist.

Sheesh. Why are some people so negative? This is a make belive world. Didn't Tolkien himself say that his imaginary world isn't static and would love people to add to it? Now you are going against his wishes.

I love the model, it looks awsome. Great piece of work.

Vampiric16
26-04-2009, 16:43
Look at who resurrected it - Vampiric16. I'm expecting a swarm of bats through the window any minute now...

If I had room, I would so sig that.