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snr. officer obsordian
26-10-2013, 00:46
so i heard there is a new witch elf character (helbroum) that gets ten attacks at strength ten with asf and reroll everything?! is this true and what can be done to fight this crazy chick?

Shadeseraph
26-10-2013, 01:04
Mostly true. She actually has 7+1D3 attacks at S10 with very high WS and I, ASF, poison and rerolling 1s to wound (which with S10 means she is pretty much rerolling everything).

Her main drawbacks is that, except for some (very good) magic defense in the form of a boost to dispell spells against the unit she is in, and a 5+ ward save if she is in a cauldron, she is naked. That is a S4(S10 comes from her swords, which means for attribute tests she is still S4),T3,3W model without a save of any kind.

Still, not easy to deal with in any way, specially when supported propperly, such as life magic or retinue of witch elves.

Norngahl
26-10-2013, 01:06
so i heard there is a new witch elf character (helbroum) that gets ten attacks at strength ten with asf and reroll everything?! is this true and what can be done to fight this crazy chick?

Easy going, as she has no defense.. 10 dead models yeah.. but 10 dead rank and file units which remain steadfest?! none cares.. take cheap troops and direct all attacks against her. Then she is propably gone. Work done.

On the other hand.. death magic is one thing, high volume attack troops, and of course shooting, to grind down the unit she is with and incoming damage in cc.

Shadeseraph
26-10-2013, 01:18
Easy going, as she has no defense.. 10 dead models yeah.. but 10 dead rank and file units which remain steadfest?! none cares.. take cheap troops and direct all attacks against her. Then she is propably gone. Work done.

On the other hand.. death magic is one thing, high volume attack troops, and of course shooting, to grind down the unit she is with and incoming damage in cc.

Some things that work in her favor are the army she is in, which can largely reduce the incoming attacks from cheap rank and file, sky-high WS, which gives her a decent defense, and that +4 to dispell spells cast against her or her unit, which makes magic dependant on IF for the most part. She herself can deal with most high cost cavalry and mons cav, and generate combat res from pretty much anything. Most DE players are talking about supporting her with life, too, which can be problematic.

She is dealable, but she is no pushover.

Still, tactics depend a lot on the army you take.

dalezzz
26-10-2013, 11:07
How many basic rank and file troops will you have to feed her though for that to work? She's gonna inflict 8 wounds a turn on average ( against almost anything)you can only get 9/10 attacks on her a turn of wich you'll do 1 wound? Maybe 2 , so you'll need about 40 guys (33337) to take her down, if she's got 20+ witch elves with her youse best be running a block of 100 I guess . I must hav my maths wrong but hellebore and 20 witches will kill 40+ spearmen clanrats ect a turn? Yeah you either need true mega blocks or feed her elites and suck up the loses she inflicts.

So run away and shoot her would be my favoured plan :p

Grey Man
26-10-2013, 11:39
If you can get nine attacks on her at S4 she will be hit three times, take two wounds, and on average live to fight a second round.

If she goes in the front rank of 30 WE that are five wide, they have more ranks, you don't get steadfast, and you lose by a gazillion. Of course, in that case you are better served killing WE than missing Hellebron. Which keeps her alive longer.

I may run her with a Level 4 Life just to see how long I can keep her alive.

ArtificerArmour
26-10-2013, 13:36
Just make sure she doesnt get into combat with any monsters or charactersand you'll be fine.

liddan
26-10-2013, 15:10
If you can get nine attacks on her at S4 she will be hit three times, take two wounds, and on average live to fight a second round.

And if you get hit by 9 S4 WS4 attacks 4,5 will hit and she will be dead on average. Can't check what her iron hard skin upgrade does atm though. Bottom line is she is super easy to kill and most people will do their best to avoid combat before withering down the unit with shooting and magic. Same thing with witch elves.

dalezzz
26-10-2013, 15:36
Isn't she ws 9? So you need multiple attacks or ws 5+ To get more than 3 hits per round, I think she wanders around with a 5+ ward , so you'll likely do 1 or 2 wounds no matter your strength, so you will loose 16 or so models before she goes down just from her attacks , wich is acceptable but you need another 30 models to maintain your 9 attacks...... Also don't come on a bigger base than 20 mm or it gets even worse.


seriously , don't fight the old bag!

edit- I see she is not ws 9 , whoops :)

Knifeparty
26-10-2013, 15:43
She's actually an old character, she's been a character in the Dark Elf book for quite a few editions now.

She has 4 attacks base +1 for paired weapons +1 for frenzy +d3 for rune of khaine and possibly +1 more attack from super frenzy from the cauldron for potentially 10 attacks at strength 10 Weapon skill 7 initiative 9 ASF re-rolling 1's to wound.

If you put her in a unit with the cauldron she has a 5+ ward save with toughness 3 and 3 wounds.

She will tear the heart out of any beast or daemon prince, just try not to get her into combat with anything that will likely be left after the unit has attacked or she will most likely die.

Soundwave
26-10-2013, 16:04
Yeah she is not new and is a beast.Not as easy to take down as you may think especially if she is calling challenges.
Pretty tricky,i used her heaps but do not know how to deal with her...Karanak actually killed her once after i fluffed my rolls(yeah it was the old book second round of combat...:(.).So yeah killing blow is good.

byrothegyro
26-10-2013, 16:33
She will tear the heart out of any beast or daemon prince...

That's not exactly true. She is a good match for a daemon prince (I'm talking about the build almost everyone uses), but odds are right around 50/50 that she kills the daemon prince, and if she doesn't odds are 60/40 the daemon prince will kill her. It would be a bad move to get a daemon prince in combat with her just because of the risk, but she isn't a guarantee to kill it either.

Knifeparty
26-10-2013, 18:03
Well assuming the Daemon Prince is a Nurgle one.

Helbron will get on average 8 attacks hitting on 5's with a re-roll so roughly 4.5 hits. Wounding on 2's with re-roll 1's so pretty much 4 wounds and then the daemon prince gets ward saves. So potentially 3 wounds on average so the Daemon Prince lives and gets to attack.

Yea I guess you're right about the Daemon Prince surviving on average, assuming he is a nurgle Daemon Prince. Although I would hope that it lost a wound or two before it hits combat to the stupid amount of shooting that the DE can produce. The main problem is that the Daemon Prince can fly and choose his battles more so than Helbron.

Either way she's great against steam tanks and knights an stuff.

liddan
26-10-2013, 18:37
That's not exactly true. She is a good match for a daemon prince (I'm talking about the build almost everyone uses), but odds are right around 50/50 that she kills the daemon prince, and if she doesn't odds are 60/40 the daemon prince will kill her. It would be a bad move to get a daemon prince in combat with her just because of the risk, but she isn't a guarantee to kill it either.

Surely the dp has better odds than that? Just the thunderstomp is an average 3,5 attacks that hit automatically and wound on 2+ so that's 2,916 wounds.

Special characters are kind of ridiculous in fantasy anyway. Some just have sick value while some armies have none even remotely worth using.

Knifeparty
26-10-2013, 20:22
Yea but thunderstomp is randomized like shooting when attacking a unit and can't be done against helbron if she's on a cauldron.

liddan
26-10-2013, 20:48
They aren't if you're in a challenge with Hellebron.

You're right, if she's on a cauldron you can't stomp but then she costs alot more than the dp aswell and you can plow in with rank and file units and just direct ALOT of attacks on her because of the big base.

Knifeparty
26-10-2013, 21:06
Yea, but then you just decline with the unit champion if he ever actually declares a challenge with a DP, which you don't have to. Champion refuses the challenge, doesn't get sent to the back because he can't, and then you just swing away at the DP with everything you got.

Ramius4
26-10-2013, 21:13
Yea, but then you just decline with the unit champion if he ever actually declares a challenge with a DP, which you don't have to. Champion refuses the challenge, doesn't get sent to the back because he can't, and then you just swing away at the DP with everything you got.

It doesn't work that way. When you refuse a challenge, the opponent gets to choose which model is retired. A champion can only refuse and stay in front if there is no other eligible model to take the challenge. Otherwise, your opponent will just choose your character.

Besides, the DP can never refuse a challenge. He's a single model and has no ranks to hide behind.

Lordcypress
26-10-2013, 21:18
My DP of Nurlge also rocks flaming breath. That's another 2D6 strength 4 hits in a challenge + Thunderstomp and I arm mine with, Glittering Scales, Soul Feeder, Scaled Skin, Nurgle's Rot and Poisonous Slime.

She has to kill me before I attack back otherwise she's dead. With Weapon Skill 9 and -2 to hit(she'll need 6's to hit), and a 5+ Ward Save that's not very likely.

With all that said she is a great character though. My DP is not the norm so the odds of fighting one kitted out exactly like I have it are not that common.

Knifeparty
26-10-2013, 21:21
It doesn't work that way. When you refuse a challenge, the opponent gets to choose which model is retired. A champion can only refuse and stay in front if there is no other eligible model to take the challenge. Otherwise, your opponent will just choose your character.

Yes, I just re-read that section, looks like I got cheated the other day...


Besides, the DP can never refuse a challenge. He's a single model and has no ranks to hide behind.

Yes, obviously I did know this. I was just referring to the fact that DP don't have the Champion of Chaos rule that forces them to challenge.

Citadel97501
26-10-2013, 21:26
Ramius, also he has the Eye of the Gods rule so he has to challenge anyway.

Knifeparty
26-10-2013, 21:29
Nope, the DP doesn't have the Eye of the Gods rule.

Ramius4
26-10-2013, 23:52
Ramius, also he has the Eye of the Gods rule so he has to challenge anyway.

No they don't.

bigbiggles
27-10-2013, 07:21
They already finished their table, it is beneath them now

I Am Forsaken
27-10-2013, 09:40
They aren't if you're in a challenge with Hellebron.

You're right, if she's on a cauldron you can't stomp but then she costs alot more than the dp aswell and you can plow in with rank and file units and just direct ALOT of attacks on her because of the big base.

Not sure she costs more, the usually nurgle prince costs 555 i believe (assuming lvl 4) while hellebron on cauldron is 500 flat.

liddan
27-10-2013, 13:44
Not sure she costs more, the usually nurgle prince costs 555 i believe (assuming lvl 4) while hellebron on cauldron is 500 flat.

555 is if you spend almost all 100 pts on gifts, the one I've seen the most is 490 to make it fit into 2000 pts. Hellebron also has 45 pts of upgrades so if you max her out she's 545 pts. Whatever, it's not really the point of the post you're focusing on. The point was that if you put her on cauldron so she can't be stomped you can just kill her with rank and file.

Soundwave
27-10-2013, 13:44
Well this is sound..."lets all party with a nurgle d.p..."No! Just bulk hordes and pray for a wound or two on her..
Very hard to take down...
Hellebron kills whatever she touches.
Hellebron kills characters...
Helllebron is and can be immune to magic...
So back to the original o.p"s question...what can you do?

Baluc
27-10-2013, 15:43
Well this is sound..."lets all party with a nurgle d.p..."No! Just bulk hordes and pray for a wound or two on her..
Very hard to take down...
Hellebron kills whatever she touches.
Hellebron kills characters...
Helllebron is and can be immune to magic...
So back to the original o.p"s question...what can you do?

Any augment or vortex bypasses additional +4

If she is in the corner, lock her in with a low wound single model (great eagle, Chariot, etc)as you can't make way if you are engaged, and charge the rest of the unit with a high armour unit (knights, Mcav), or multi-rank and attack infantry unit.

warplock
27-10-2013, 16:46
Hellebron also has 45 pts of upgrades so if you max her out she's 545 pts.

No she doesn't. What do you mean?

liddan
27-10-2013, 16:57
No she doesn't. What do you mean?

My bad, read the manticore upgrades as her since they were in her options.

liddan
27-10-2013, 17:06
Well this is sound..."lets all party with a nurgle d.p..."No! Just bulk hordes and pray for a wound or two on her..
Very hard to take down...
Hellebron kills whatever she touches.
Hellebron kills characters...
Helllebron is and can be immune to magic...
So back to the original o.p"s question...what can you do?

Characterizing a T3 W3 300+ pts model as "very hard to take down" is just plain wrong imo. As long as you bring something that survives her attacks she is extremely easy to take down. It's the same as alot of dark elf units like witch elves for example.

Even just semi-elite units like greatswords have a good chance of killing her with 9 attacks, you just have to not bring a unit with only 15-20 models cause you'll lose alot of attacks and will never have more than 6 able to hit her. So that is the answer to the question "what can you do?" if you don't have access to something like a dp.

dalezzz
27-10-2013, 20:08
40 or so great swords will chop her up easily enough, but they won't ever catch her unless she's got a pack of witch elves in tow....wich means you'll be lucky to have many left to do anything with. To be honest you need to be horded and have your full 3 ranks to be certain ( well as far as averages go) of taking her down in one round

ill take 4 mortars and have some spare points I think :p

warplock
27-10-2013, 20:40
My bad, read the manticore upgrades as her since they were in her options.

Ah yes, I'm sure I read someone a while ago talk about giving her 'Iron Hard Skin' and I got all excited about her being able to have an armour save, until I remembered that would only be for the Manticore!

Freman Bloodglaive
28-10-2013, 04:38
It's nice that GW are now releasing units that make Empire players polish up their old mortars and think... "well, maybe."

siccore
28-10-2013, 09:45
She's actually an old character, she's been a character in the Dark Elf book for quite a few editions now.

She has 4 attacks base +1 for paired weapons +1 for frenzy +d3 for rune of khaine and possibly +1 more attack from super frenzy from the cauldron for potentially 10 attacks at strength 10 Weapon skill 7 initiative 9 ASF re-rolling 1's to wound.

If you put her in a unit with the cauldron she has a 5+ ward save with toughness 3 and 3 wounds.

She will tear the heart out of any beast or daemon prince, just try not to get her into combat with anything that will likely be left after the unit has attacked or she will most likely die.

if she is on the cauldron, she does not benefid from the +1A from paired weapons

naloth
28-10-2013, 13:47
I've already run across her twice and both times I was fortunate enough to have ASF to mutually self destruct while killing her. The first time was with High Elves and the second time was with LM using Time Warp.

Once you can strike at her, she dies pretty easily. The trick is getting to strike at the same time (ASF) or survive (3+ ward, removing her re-rolls, tricks to reduce her chances of hitting).

dalezzz
28-10-2013, 19:10
So is there any reason to put her on the cauldron? Far as I see she looses an attack ,can be hit by 12? 15? Attacks instead of 9 wich will kill her in 1 round with most troops ( I think) and you can cannonball her in the face. So any reason to put her on it rather than just have it in the same unit as her? Or nearby?

Symrivven
28-10-2013, 19:42
Couldron is a Large target so you have a bigger leadership bubble, and you get a 5+ ward save, personally I'd still prefer her on foot.

mostlyharmless
28-10-2013, 19:57
How do you kill her? You don't. You avoid her unit. Most people won't stick her on a manticore because that's begging to get sniped. The cauldron is a wash. So, chances are, if you fight her, she will be on foot, in a unit of witches (or executioners in my case). Just work around the witch elves and kill the rest of your opponent's army. Helbron is only useful in close combat, so deny her that.

Fighting Newfoundlander
29-10-2013, 01:49
Well, This looks gross for most armies. I can't think what I'd do if I faced here w/o a Nurgle DP. She'd just murder everything else in the Chaos book in seconds. For Dwarves you just blast the unit to pieces. I guess O&G throw walls of goblins at her, but my all orc army would be hurting bad. Real problem indeed.

Don Zeko
29-10-2013, 01:51
Couldron is a Large target so you have a bigger leadership bubble, and you get a 5+ ward save, personally I'd still prefer her on foot.

And if you put another death hag on a cauldron in her unit, it'll give her a 5+ ward without exposing her to cannonballs.

Soundwave
29-10-2013, 13:02
I've already run across her twice and both times I was fortunate enough to have ASF to mutually self destruct while killing her. The first time was with High Elves and the second time was with LM using Time Warp.

Once you can strike at her, she dies pretty easily. The trick is getting to strike at the same time (ASF) or survive (3+ ward, removing her re-rolls, tricks to reduce her chances of hitting).
This is the best bit of advice so far i think.

mirloor
29-10-2013, 13:56
About challenge, DP does not need to challange, only character in WOC book that does not need to do that and can refuse if he wants. About champion if he refuses then he cant fight he goes back, if he cant go in second rank he cant refuse.

Yowzo
29-10-2013, 14:05
This is the best bit of advice so far i think.

HE have it easy. Just throw a frost phoenix down her flank and suddenly your ASF across the board units leave her without a chance. Lizzies and HE can also throw a few dice to arcane unforging and take that S10 sword down.

Of course, a unit with botwd laughs at her, even though her unit will probably put a huge dent on everything except helms, dragon princes and maybe phoenix guard.

Other armies with have a harder time, but she's still on a huge frenzied unit so make sure your redirection-fu is strong.

mostlyharmless
29-10-2013, 14:39
She's been in the last book and hasn't changed much at all. How did you deal with her before? Use that now. She is T3 W3 and no save, at all. That alone should give you some ideas. She's a paper tiger. She is all punch and no staying power.

Soundwave
30-10-2013, 13:27
Good advice from Yowzo as well.Skaven have alot of toughness test things,and these happen at the start of combat i think so thats good for them.
W.O.C have Tzeentch sword and shield combo to take a little of the bite out and still have some retalliation.
Acess to light magic would help with some similtanious striking as well.

datalink7
01-11-2013, 04:56
I've playtested a list with her that is pretty nasty.

Level 4 with 4++, Dispell Scroll, Ironcurse Icon

Crone Hellebron

Master BSB with 2+/6++, Ring of Hotek

Assassin with Killing Blow, +2 Strength
Assassin with Killing Blow, +2 Attacks
Assassin with Killing Blow, Additional Hand Weapon, Other Tricksters Shard

67 Witch Elves, Razor Standard

10 Warlocks

10 Warlocks

So, you either have to try and get points from units of 10 Fast Cavalry with a 4++ (and pretty decent in hand to hand with 15 strength 4 poison ASF poison attacks rerolling 1's to wound plus horses), or take on the death star.

Death Star has good defense against magic.

Any double 1's result in a miscast.
Has Magic Resistence 3.
Dark Elf Player gets +8 to Dispel anything cast at that unit (level 4 plus Crone Hellebron bonus).

Lore of life will regularly give the unit either greater toughness or regen, or both.

I haven't always won by a lot with the list because the deathstar can be easily lead astray via chaff, but I haven't lost a game yet (played 3).

One game I got charged with a Nurgle DP and 2x Chimera in the rear, and a unit of 3 skullcrushers in each flank. Result was two dead chimera (before they even got to strike), 10 wounds on the skullcrushers who both fled, leaving the DP to be killed next turn.

Assassin with OTS I usually save to pop up next to Crone Hellebron to help her get through a characters ward save if needed. This pretty much assures the instant destruction of a Nurgle Daemon Prince unless they are running the Glittering Scales version.

dalezzz
01-11-2013, 09:03
Have you gone up against a artillery heavy empire or dwarf army yet with that list? I'd be interested to know if dark elves suffer as much from shooting as everybody claims

Von Wibble
01-11-2013, 13:57
Lists like that are the reason that the rules should be "minimum of 3 units per 1000 points or part of 1000 points in the game". And unit caps.

naloth
01-11-2013, 15:30
I've playtested a list with her that is pretty nasty.
<snip list>

It looks like a pretty interesting challenge... Of course, the Chimera's and DP should have gone to the side and flamed the crap out of those WE :)

I think it would struggle with HE simply because every unit strikes at the same time and can ace most of the characters pretty easily since 5 of them are naked T3 models. Worse, a HE unit (say 18 silver helms in a 6x3) and a Frostie could double up on it pretty easily, striking first and wiping out any dangerous characters.

datalink7
01-11-2013, 17:05
It looks like a pretty interesting challenge... Of course, the Chimera's and DP should have gone to the side and flamed the crap out of those WE :)

I think it would struggle with HE simply because every unit strikes at the same time and can ace most of the characters pretty easily since 5 of them are naked T3 models. Worse, a HE unit (say 18 silver helms in a 6x3) and a Frostie could double up on it pretty easily, striking first and wiping out any dangerous characters.

The DP did get his breath off in one phase and killed 21 I think, which was a large chunk. The other chimeras though were forced to do it when the unit had toughness 7 so they only killed 10 more combined (and that was above average I think).

I do agree that High Elves are the main weakness of the list, though it could still be a rough fight. To kill Hellebron, you have to charge with something decently substantial, so you'd be giving up points. But overall I'd say a competent High Elf player has a bit of an advantage.

Every other army, though, I think will struggle particularly if they aren't expecting it. Warlocks are actually excellent at clearing chaff between their combat ability and doombolts, which lets the main block attack mostly where it wants.

Also note, I'm not advocating the list. I've named it "The Stupid List" for a reason. It is an interesting tactical challenge, but isn't very "fun" to play with or against. I'm mostly playing it in my store so the owner can have cause to institute some kind of local tournament ban against it (perhaps just banning Hellebron would suffice).

datalink7
01-11-2013, 17:09
Have you gone up against a artillery heavy empire or dwarf army yet with that list? I'd be interested to know if dark elves suffer as much from shooting as everybody claims

Not yet, but I don't anticipate it being a big problem. Even if I lose 75% of my force by the time I reach the dwarf lines, I'll still wreck any infantry that they have.

And the Warlocks will be able to sweep up the war machines pretty handily.

Myster2
01-11-2013, 17:33
How do you kill her? You don't. You avoid her unit. Most people won't stick her on a manticore because that's begging to get sniped. The cauldron is a wash. So, chances are, if you fight her, she will be on foot, in a unit of witches (or executioners in my case). Just work around the witch elves and kill the rest of your opponent's army. Helbron is only useful in close combat, so deny her that.

This argument is always awesome. Some armies actually have a lot slower base movement than elves. With some armies it is extremely difficult to deny anything combat. The common arguments against this are
1) Just chaff it to death - DE are amazing are removing chaff
2) Position your troops better - It's pretty hard to win the positioning battle with M3 or M4.

So i'm with the OP and trying to come up with a way to deal with her as LM. I'm thinking arcane unforging followed by a death snipe rolling two more dice than my opponent each time. Or trying for a lucky dwellers or similar. I'm really not sure how else to do it. The ASF with light is probably a good idea as well but i'd have to get lucky and roll that.

My normal idea of the 1+ 4++ old blood on a cold one would get eaten alive.

datalink7
01-11-2013, 17:47
This argument is always awesome. Some armies actually have a lot slower base movement than elves. With some armies it is extremely difficult to deny anything combat. The common arguments against this are
1) Just chaff it to death - DE are amazing are removing chaff
2) Position your troops better - It's pretty hard to win the positioning battle with M3 or M4.

So i'm with the OP and trying to come up with a way to deal with her as LM. I'm thinking arcane unforging followed by a death snipe rolling two more dice than my opponent each time. Or trying for a lucky dwellers or similar. I'm really not sure how else to do it. The ASF with light is probably a good idea as well but i'd have to get lucky and roll that.

My normal idea of the 1+ 4++ old blood on a cold one would get eaten alive.

These are all excellent points. I haven't had a problem with chaff with my above list. Warlocks do excellent at removing chaff, and the big block does have movement 5 so it is hard to ignore (and I've thought of giving it the movement standard instead of the razor standard since Hellebron has Strength 10 anyway to deal with Armor).

Death Snipes might work on her, but it would still be hard. First, there is the +4 to dispel. Second, for the leadership one she has leadership 10. The toughness one would be good but it is only range of 12" so would be hard to pull off. The strength one is probably the best bet, trying for the irresistible, but on average won't kill her (7 hits -4 strength = 3 hits, half of which wound).

byrothegyro
01-11-2013, 18:34
Honestly I wouldn't be afraid of that list at all. With only 3 drops I could place almost my whole army wherever I think best to counter it. I take lore of death on my dp with two hellcannons so if I'm lucky I'll get a doom and darkness off and then make it take two panic tests at -4 ld and watch it run off the board, if I'm not lucky I still kill tons of WE with hellcannons and flame breaths from dp and chimeras before I go in, and while I'm leading it around with chaff I take out the warlocks with the rest of my army. Hellebron is much scarier when there are several scary units on the board with her.

Best way to deal with her in a general form is to hold her in place with chaff as much as possible while you work on handling the rest of the army, and then hopefully whittle her unit down so you have some static combat res to help you win combat, and try to snipe her with whatever you can. She is a very dangerous character if your normal tactic is move forward and smash face, but if you are more patient and bide your time you should be able to figure a way to exploit her weakness.

datalink7
01-11-2013, 18:48
Honestly I wouldn't be afraid of that list at all. With only 3 drops I could place almost my whole army wherever I think best to counter it. I take lore of death on my dp with two hellcannons so if I'm lucky I'll get a doom and darkness off and then make it take two panic tests at -4 ld and watch it run off the board, if I'm not lucky I still kill tons of WE with hellcannons and flame breaths from dp and chimeras before I go in, and while I'm leading it around with chaff I take out the warlocks with the rest of my army. Hellebron is much scarier when there are several scary units on the board with her.

Best way to deal with her in a general form is to hold her in place with chaff as much as possible while you work on handling the rest of the army, and then hopefully whittle her unit down so you have some static combat res to help you win combat, and try to snipe her with whatever you can. She is a very dangerous character if your normal tactic is move forward and smash face, but if you are more patient and bide your time you should be able to figure a way to exploit her weakness.

Unit is frenzied. They won't be taking any panic tests.

Also, you have the problem of actually catching the Warlocks. They are Fast Cavalry with a movement of 9. They can dance around the big block and be pretty difficult to pin down. If it gets to an instance where they are going to get charged, I simply stick them in front of the Witch Elf unit which will subsequently wipe out whatever charged them.

Additionally, a lot of the time they are in front of the big block anyway, providing a screen. They are powerful enough that pretty much anything that charges them that is worth LESS points than they are, will get killed. Anything that is worth more points, will get charged by the big block on the following turn.

This also prevents all but flying chaff from actually getting in the way of the big block. Flying chaff is a bit of a problem (harpies and furies) but can be dealt with in other ways.

datalink7
01-11-2013, 18:50
Note that I'm not saying it is impossible to beat the list. Just that many people are overly dismissive of it because it looks stupidly simple, but it is actually quite hard to beat when it comes down to game time.

naloth
01-11-2013, 19:03
Note that I'm not saying it is impossible to beat the list. Just that many people are overly dismissive of it because it looks stupidly simple, but it is actually quite hard to beat when it comes down to game time.

It's going to do very well against some armies and very poorly against others. HE will do well by chipping away and striking at the same time. Empire can do pretty well with knights, magic, shooting, and 1+ saves. Brets might do well by running multiple character enhanced lance formations into it at once (lots of attacks for the frontage). Skaven has plenty of tricks.

LM would have to rely on shooting or Light magic. Beastmen are kinda out of luck. Ogres better hope they brought plenty of Leadies. Chaos Warriors would depend entirely on the build.

Fighting Newfoundlander
01-11-2013, 21:39
Note that I'm not saying it is impossible to beat the list. Just that many people are overly dismissive of it because it looks stupidly simple, but it is actually quite hard to beat when it comes down to game time.

Yup - that'd destroy just about any O&G list I normally run. Dwarfs would do alright I think. Unkillable dwarf lord would kill her easy (as she'd only be S5), and 2 stonethrowers should kill 35 witches a turn I think. 5 man miner units could pose a problem if deployed too close to either flank. yeah - I think I might be able to deal with it with Dwarfs, but both my O&G and WOC armies would be toast I think.

datalink7
02-11-2013, 00:33
Just mulling over the different armies and how they would do, these are my thoughts.

Beastmen - Would have a difficult time. The advantage from the Herdstone is mitigated by the +4 to dispel via Hellebron. +4 to dispel is better than getting a free dispel dice per dispel attempt. Would have to try for a lucky death snipe and then avoidance, because any unit (bestigor or gor horde) would just simply get eviscerated. Any other list that isn't Herdstone centric would probably fare worse as they wouldn't even get that chance of a snipe.

*Note, I am thinking of tournament lists here, because a 24 tuskgor chariot list could potentially do very well with all the impact hits, but that isn't something you are going to see.

Bretonnia - I haven't played against Brets in ages (none in my local meta), but I'd think they'd have no chance. Hellebron kills about 7 knights on average before they get to strike. The assassins would get at least 4-5 more (or killing blow characters), and then the witches maybe a couple more, before the knights even get to strike. Even if they charged with multiple units I don't think they could make up the deficit. Trebuchets would struggle to cause enough damage before combat, and brets don't have a lot of redirectors.

Chaos Dwarves - I could see a triple magma cannon list faring fairly well. Problem is actually finishing off the unit. Against Chaos Dwarves I'd probably deploy 20 wide to minimize the damage from War Machines. K'dai isn't a problem.

Daemons of Chaos - Epi list will level up very quickly because Witch Elves are squishy. However, the list doesn't care a lot how tough nor how strong plaguebearers are due to all the poison and the fact that there is no armor anyway. I don't see this being a big problem. There is the casty version of the daemons list (lots of horror units). But it isn't a huge deal due to the Magic Resistence 3, and that will simply give the big unit a regen bonus over time due to warpflame. Large unit of Beasts of Nurgle is always nasty. I see them as a potential problem for at least an assassination run against Hellebron as it would be difficult to wipe the whole unit out in one go.

Dwarves - Triple Grudgethrower list would be difficult. Against I'd go 20 wide most likely and get the Warlocks hunting war machines as fast as possible. Unkillable Dwarf Lord wouldn't be a problem as I'd simply never have Hellebron fight him, and any unit he is with will go down quickly. Anvil would be annoying. Overall, Dwarves should be strong but the problem is, as with all dwarf lists, can you kill enough before they get to you? If I got to the dwarf lines with even 10-15 witch elves left I think that might be enough.

Empire - Don't forsee a problem here. 1+ armor knights simply die to Hellebron and Assassins add some more wounds. Chicken Knights fare better because Assassins can't killing blow, but they still lose too many wounds to Hellebron. Cannons can't do enough damage I don't think before I hit the enemy line.

High Elves - Toughest contender IMO due to the fact that ASF is nullified (or even worse with Frost Pheonix). Here I would hope for a decent magic phase to either get T7 or 4+ regen on the unit. Getting either should secure victory in a combat, otherwise Hellebron could probably be assassinated.

Lizardmen - Mass amount of Skinks would be annoying. But at the same time, they are exceedingly easy to dispense with via the warlocks, and Saurus stand no chance at either hurting the big block or avoiding it due to their large footprint. Don't foresee a problem here.

Ogre Kingdoms - If they loaded up on a ton of leadbelchers, they might have a solid chance. Otherwise, they are in trouble. 3 sabertusks are going to die fairly quick (probably one redirects the large block, other two taken down by warlocks). Witch Elves by themselves are nasty against all Ogres except Mournfangs (and with Razor Standard they aren't too bad there), let alone Hellebron. But really, I don't usually see a ton of leadbelchers (maybe a unit of 6 here and there).

Orcs & Goblins - A massed War Machine list I'd be interested to see how much damage it could do, but I doubt it is reliable enough to actually win more than on occasion. Savage Orc Horde should go down without too much trouble from Witch Elf horde.

Skaven - Nothing is particularly scary in this list. However, there is the possibility due to simple numbers here that they could redirect the big block with cheap units and try to take down the warlocks due to simple table domination and taking away places to run. I'm not sure about this one.

Tomb Kings - Sorry Tomb Kings players, I don't see it going well. Can't march so you can't get out of the way. Have to take Arkhan the Black and hope for a good snipe, or 100+ poison Archers from Khalida and hope to do enough damage.

Vampire Counts - They don't have great mobility, don't have good magic damage, and don't have good ranged support (just screams). I don't see it going well here. They have no units that can threaten the big block and no way to damage it.

Warriors of Chaos - I think this list will struggle, considering Hellebron (with the OTS assassin popping up nearby) kills a Nurgle DP on average before it even gets to strike. Chimeras go down pretty handily to Witch Elves and boosted strength assassin. A massive chariot list would probably have the best chance, or massed flaming breaths. But I already beat a list with 3 flaming breaths. Throgg list goes down hard (too much poison).

Wood Elves - Probably could actually force a Draw fairly easily, but I don't see how they could actually ever win.

So, in sum, I don't think any army has a sure win against the list, and most have a poor chance. I'd probably rank it like this:

Good Chance: High Elves
Decent: Dwarves, Chaos Dwarves (with the right build)
Poor: Warriors of Chaos, Skaven, Daemons of Chaos, Empire, Orcs & Goblins (maybe)
Very Little Chance: Tomb Kings, Vampire Counts, Ogre Kingdoms, Lizardmen, Bretonnia
Draw: Wood Elves

Fighting Newfoundlander
02-11-2013, 01:12
I'm probably missing something, but thinking on this a bit more, wouldn't throwing a hoard in the front (goblins etc) and then hitting in the flank with a good killy unit (Savages) likely do the trick, especially after some shooting. 200 Night gobos with nets and bows, a poison arrow bsbs, 2 stone throwers and a big unit of savages is under 1500 I think, which leaves lots of room for more shooting, a whack load of chariots, etc. 9 gobo chariots for 450 would be a good addition I think. I think O&G could do alright in hindsight, but they'd need to bring the mass of gobos to tie the unit up for a while.

datalink7
02-11-2013, 01:22
I'm probably missing something, but thinking on this a bit more, wouldn't throwing a hoard in the front (goblins etc) and then hitting in the flank with a good killy unit (Savages) likely do the trick, especially after some shooting. 200 Night gobos with nets and bows, a poison arrow bsbs, 2 stone throwers and a big unit of savages is under 1500 I think, which leaves lots of room for more shooting, a whack load of chariots, etc. 9 gobo chariots for 450 would be a good addition I think. I think O&G could do alright in hindsight, but they'd need to bring the mass of gobos to tie the unit up for a while.

They could, but I was thinking of tournament lists. You do see Night Goblin big units around sometimes, but not usually at 200. Biggest I usually see is 80 or so. Considering (super quick rough math) the deathstar does 40 wounds against it (and that's with nets, more if nets failed) which will remove steadfast, they usually won't be holding up the unit with gobbos.

This is also why I rated Ogre Kingdoms so low. A massive leadbelcher list could work well, but you don't see those.

dalezzz
02-11-2013, 09:09
I guess part of the problem is that witch elves and hellebron cancel each other's weaknesses , hellebron murders high as models ( and anything else) at a rate of 7 + a turn pretty much guaranteed , so they are no longer an effective counter to a pack of witch elves, likewise the witch elves mash weak troops in massive numbers , so you can't use them to grind hellebron down! Shootings the only real option ... Or maybe the biggest unit of chaos warriors ever?

Fighting Newfoundlander
02-11-2013, 13:57
They could, but I was thinking of tournament lists. You do see Night Goblin big units around sometimes, but not usually at 200. Biggest I usually see is 80 or so. Considering (super quick rough math) the deathstar does 40 wounds against it (and that's with nets, more if nets failed) which will remove steadfast, they usually won't be holding up the unit with gobbos.

I'd say that you'd be doing a lot less than 40 a turn if they get their shooting in for a turn or two first off. Even a 110, done 11x10 gives you gives you 70 shots. so, a little over 11 poison and 11 regular hits a turn at long range. Plus stone throwers. By the time they get to the fight breaking steadfast should be a real challenge. And that unit is costing less than 400 points+poison BSB. It'd let you 'trap' the character in the front rank, so you can hit them in the flank with whatever else. Throw in chariots and I do think this'd be a problem for the unit. Might not be the standard touney army, but it isn't uncommon for O&G to have some war machines, a big unit of NG archers, and some hard hitting orcs. I'm guessing that I'm going to see something not too far from this when my buddy starts playing DE again soon, so maybe I'll get to try out this counter.

Soundwave
02-11-2013, 16:01
Note that I'm not saying it is impossible to beat the list. Just that many people are overly dismissive of it because it looks stupidly simple, but it is actually quite hard to beat when it comes down to game time.

Have you lost Hellebron in any games yet? If so what happend...
Or is she that much of a witch that the sheer kill power of her with her fellow blood bathers decimate all they touch?

Yowzo
02-11-2013, 16:51
I'd say that you'd be doing a lot less than 40 a turn if they get their shooting in for a turn or two first off. Even a 110, done 11x10 gives you gives you 70 shots. so, a little over 11 poison and 11 regular hits a turn at long range. Plus stone throwers. By the time they get to the fight breaking steadfast should be a real challenge. And that unit is costing less than 400 points+poison BSB. It'd let you 'trap' the character in the front rank, so you can hit them in the flank with whatever else. Throw in chariots and I do think this'd be a problem for the unit. Might not be the standard touney army, but it isn't uncommon for O&G to have some war machines, a big unit of NG archers, and some hard hitting orcs. I'm guessing that I'm going to see something not too far from this when my buddy starts playing DE again soon, so maybe I'll get to try out this counter.

Tourney o&g get 2 lobbas and 2 doom divers usually. Lots of cheap goblin chariots and mangler squigs are usually in the mix.

All of the above plus massed fanatic ng units would put a nice dent on that unit.


Enviado desde mi GT-I9300 mediante Tapatalk

danny-d-b
02-11-2013, 17:31
Vollyguns let her witch elves take some of them to the face

and if you want to go after them with warlocks fine, volly gun their face

naloth
02-11-2013, 18:05
Bretonnia - I haven't played against Brets in ages (none in my local meta), but I'd think they'd have no chance. Hellebron kills about 7 knights on average before they get to strike. The assassins would get at least 4-5 more (or killing blow characters), and then the witches maybe a couple more, before the knights even get to strike. Even if they charged with multiple units I don't think they could make up the deficit. Trebuchets would struggle to cause enough damage before combat, and brets don't have a lot of redirectors.

A couple of Trebuchets (2+ for everything under the template) would kill quite a few witches since they should get 2 shots each in and it's a nice large unit to hit. There's usually at least one 20 man archer unit as well, often as a sorc bunker, that would do pretty well dealing with Warlocks or Witches. All of these have a pretty good range (30" longbows, 60" treb) so you don't have to position them forward.

As for the lances, I think you've forgotten that you have a 2+ armor and 5+ ward for every knight. Even if Hellebron hits perfectly and wounds perfectly (statistically, she's more likely to do 7 wounds before saves) she's only getting 2/3s past that ward save. Perhaps 5ish knights if she doesn't challenge (which would likely mean her death). Most of the assassin attacks will be ignored (3+ save, 6+ ward) except for the lucky killing blow (1/6 of the 10 attacks for the S4 assassins) which may be warded anyway. The S6 assassin is more dangerous but also facing a 5+/5++ save - so perhaps another 2 there. The witches will have a formidable number of attacks, but facing a 3+/6++ save most of them aren't going to hurt anything. Assuming a 10 wide frontage (both lances are probably only 3 knights wide) you've already attacked with 4 characters leaving 4 normal witches (20 attacks, 20 supporting) plus 6 from the champ, and 4 from the master. 46 witch attacks - say half to errant knights (3+ hit, 4+ wound) and half to KotR (4+ hit & wound) gives you ~4 poison to each (first strike), and a remaining 13 errant and 8 KotR hits. Re-rolling the misses (7 errant, 11 KotR), you get another 1 errant and 2 KotR poison, 4 errant and 4 kotr hits. The 29 hits come out to 14ish wounds (rounded up on hits, so rounding down here), with 5 rerolls for say another 3 wounds to be generous = 17 regular wounds. Total 28 wounds. 2/3 of these are saves by armor even with the razor banner leaving around 9, another 1-2 saved by wards. So of the 32 knights you lose ~5 to Hellebron, ~3 to assassins, ~7 to witches. That's about 15 of 32 that you were charged with leaving a 2+ heroes and 15 rather peeved knights to roll about 36 attacks against your witches - most hitting on 4+, wounding on 2+, and you have no save. I suspect the witches will lose even at full strength and if the knights don't have any magic up. Worse, the PV is comparable and Bret have some pretty worthwhile magic items and abilities that could help swing this.

You just don't set up death stars to get double (or triple) charged by Bret lances.



Chaos Dwarves - I could see a triple magma cannon list faring fairly well. Problem is actually finishing off the unit. Against Chaos Dwarves I'd probably deploy 20 wide to minimize the damage from War Machines. K'dai isn't a problem.

Deathshriekers Rockets - they seek and blow with a large S3 template. 3-4 of those would basically reduce the unit to characters in a 2 turns. Polish it off with Destroyers, Blunderbusses, and Fireglaves. Flank w/Bull Center Renders that have a T5 and a 2+ save.

The Destroyer has you re-roll all non-magical attacks to wound. I don't think the banner makes your attacks magical which means only your Assassins (mostly S4) and Hellebron would wound the critter. Also the annoying S4 fire attack for all models touching at the beginning of CC would inflict a quick wound against most of the characters or witches if you kept them in BTB. Being unbreakable you have to kill it and T6 4+ ward save doesn't make that easy. I see quite a few double Destroyer lists so while you might get lucking dealing with one two at the same time would wreck the unit and kill most of the characters.



Empire - Don't forsee a problem here. 1+ armor knights simply die to Hellebron and Assassins add some more wounds. Chicken Knights fare better because Assassins can't killing blow, but they still lose too many wounds to Hellebron. Cannons can't do enough damage I don't think before I hit the enemy line.

You're very optimistic about killing blow.

Dual steam tanks. Too many wounds to kill quickly, KB is ineffective, 1+ save.

Dual Hellblaster. Nothing like killing 20-30 witches a turn w/S5 shooting.

I've also seen a few more Hockland's dotting lists lately. Even some people taking units of outriders (ah, 12 outriders, 36 shots).



Lizardmen - Mass amount of Skinks would be annoying. But at the same time, they are exceedingly easy to dispense with via the warlocks, and Saurus stand no chance at either hurting the big block or avoiding it due to their large footprint. Don't foresee a problem here.

I recently beat a Hellebron list w/LM simply by getting off Briana's Time Warp and killing her with simultaneous attacks. Of course, any one that can take Light could do that...



Tomb Kings - Sorry Tomb Kings players, I don't see it going well. Can't march so you can't get out of the way. Have to take Arkhan the Black and hope for a good snipe, or 100+ poison Archers from Khalida and hope to do enough damage.

I don't think you would like to end up facing a council of light list. Once you can drop either Speed of Light (WS10/I10) or Brianna's (+1A, ASF) on a unit, most of the WE threat goes away. If you can further stack Pha's (-1 to hit) it's gravy. TK also do pretty well with sniping simply by outdicing you on magic. Between 5ish channels, +d3 dice for a casket, and +d3 for a conduit casting you can outmagic pretty much any other list. The WE and Warlocks would also dislike getting hit with 7+ chariots either at once or sequential charges. There's 20 wounds simply in impact hits. SSC would take chunks out as would Warsphinx with a flame template.



Vampire Counts - They don't have great mobility, don't have good magic damage, and don't have good ranged support (just screams). I don't see it going well here. They have no units that can threaten the big block and no way to damage it.

Aside from plenty of redirectors and blog units (zombies), VC have some pretty scary characters and a few items that can augment them. A VC blender will have Red Fury, Quickblood, and Beguile for his powers. His magic gear will usually be a 4+ ward and either come combination of weapons, arcane items, and the Night Shroud. That last item is certain death for Hellebron and assassins (no magic weapons, ASL for enemies in base). I suspect a minimal frontage and a very deep skeleton/zombie unit, multiple ASF vampires to support the lord and magical support.



Good Chance: High Elves
Decent: Dwarves, Chaos Dwarves (with the right build)
Poor: Warriors of Chaos, Skaven, Daemons of Chaos, Empire, Orcs & Goblins (maybe)
Very Little Chance: Tomb Kings, Vampire Counts, Ogre Kingdoms, Lizardmen, Bretonnia
Draw: Wood Elves
I easily beat something very similar (no assassins, 30-40 witches plus Hellebron) with LM and HE. No issues with fairly standard all comers lists.

I doubt typical Bret, Empire, VC, or OK armies would have much trouble either.

naloth
02-11-2013, 18:10
Have you lost Hellebron in any games yet? If so what happend...
Or is she that much of a witch that the sheer kill power of her with her fellow blood bathers decimate all they touch?

I'm not sure how he's doing, but facing her I've killed her 3 out of the 3 times. ASF characters, HEs, Time Warp, sniper abilities, or even a large cheap horde can do the trick. She has strong abilities and high damage potential but nothing for defense. If there's anything credible left to strike at her, she dies from a stiff wind.

datalink7
02-11-2013, 21:30
A couple of Trebuchets (2+ for everything under the template) would kill quite a few witches since they should get 2 shots each in and it's a nice large unit to hit. There's usually at least one 20 man archer unit as well, often as a sorc bunker, that would do pretty well dealing with Warlocks or Witches. All of these have a pretty good range (30" longbows, 60" treb) so you don't have to position them forward.

I don't see longbows being that great of a threat to Warlocks. Even under maximum firing conditions (short range, didn't move), that's 10 hit = 5 wounds = 4.166 after armor save = 2.0833 after ward save. Then the next turn the Warlocks are in combat (either with the bow unit which they'd kill or the Trebuchets).

Trebuchets WOULD do a lot of damage to the witches, but they only get a direct hit less than 1/3 of the time (1/3 are "hits", but you also have to factor in the 1/6th of a chance for a misfire). Additionally, they are probably only going to get 1-2 turns of firing.


As for the lances, I think you've forgotten that you have a 2+ armor and 5+ ward for every knight. Even if Hellebron hits perfectly and wounds perfectly (statistically, she's more likely to do 7 wounds before saves) she's only getting 2/3s past that ward save. Perhaps 5ish knights if she doesn't challenge (which would likely mean her death).

I haven't forgotten about that. This is why the OTS assassin pops up next to her, for reasons such as this or other characters (such as DP).

She has 9 attacks on average = 2 poison + 6 hits = 7.833 wounds = 6.85 wounds after ward save (rerolled from OTS).


Most of the assassin attacks will be ignored (3+ save, 6+ ward) except for the lucky killing blow (1/6 of the 10 attacks for the S4 assassins) which may be warded anyway.

Remember that rerolling 1's to wound allows for a greater number of Killing Blows. And, OTS nearly negates a 6++, which two of the assassins (including the one holding it) can take advantage of. Also, as a minor point, it is 11 attacks not 10 from the non S6 assassins. This is around 2.5 wounds if you don't count in killing blow at all, which there should be 1-2 in there.


The S6 assassin is more dangerous but also facing a 5+/5++ save - so perhaps another 2 there. The witches will have a formidable number of attacks, but facing a 3+/6++ save most of them aren't going to hurt anything. Assuming a 10 wide frontage (both lances are probably only 3 knights wide) you've already attacked with 4 characters leaving 4 normal witches (20 attacks, 20 supporting) plus 6 from the champ, and 4 from the master. 46 witch attacks - say half to errant knights (3+ hit, 4+ wound) and half to KotR (4+ hit & wound) gives you ~4 poison to each (first strike), and a remaining 13 errant and 8 KotR hits. Re-rolling the misses (7 errant, 11 KotR), you get another 1 errant and 2 KotR poison, 4 errant and 4 kotr hits. The 29 hits come out to 14ish wounds (rounded up on hits, so rounding down here), with 5 rerolls for say another 3 wounds to be generous = 17 regular wounds. Total 28 wounds. 2/3 of these are saves by armor even with the razor banner leaving around 9, another 1-2 saved by wards. So of the 32 knights you lose ~5 to Hellebron, ~3 to assassins, ~7 to witches. That's about 15 of 32 that you were charged with leaving a 2+ heroes and 15 rather peeved knights to roll about 36 attacks against your witches - most hitting on 4+, wounding on 2+, and you have no save. I suspect the witches will lose even at full strength and if the knights don't have any magic up. Worse, the PV is comparable and Bret have some pretty worthwhile magic items and abilities that could help swing this.

You just don't set up death stars to get double (or triple) charged by Bret lances.

I won't rerun your math on the witches because it looks fine at a glance. Just want to point out that you've undervalued Hellebron and the Assassins by about 4 wounds. This is 21 wounds for the dark elf side, and leaves 11 knights. Also, remember that anyone not ITP will be taking a fear test at -3 from Hellebron.

Also note that if you mention that Brets have good magic, so do the Dark Elves. This is why I don't typically run comparisons with magic, because otherwise you might as well make the Witch Elves have a 4+ Regen and Toughness 7 to account for their magic.

I will give you though that a double charge by two lances would be quite dangerous. However, I think it is s till slanted towards the Dark Elf side unless there has been good success from the Trebuchets. The Horde has 7 ranks, so you have to kill quite a bit before they wouldn't be steadfast. And after Strength 5 is gone the Knights will end up getting ground down. But I could see advancing Brets up from "very little chance" to "poor" based on the above analysis.


Deathshriekers Rockets - they seek and blow with a large S3 template. 3-4 of those would basically reduce the unit to characters in a 2 turns. Polish it off with Destroyers, Blunderbusses, and Fireglaves. Flank w/Bull Center Renders that have a T5 and a 2+ save.

The Destroyer has you re-roll all non-magical attacks to wound. I don't think the banner makes your attacks magical which means only your Assassins (mostly S4) and Hellebron would wound the critter. Also the annoying S4 fire attack for all models touching at the beginning of CC would inflict a quick wound against most of the characters or witches if you kept them in BTB. Being unbreakable you have to kill it and T6 4+ ward save doesn't make that easy. I see quite a few double Destroyer lists so while you might get lucking dealing with one two at the same time would wreck the unit and kill most of the characters.

I wasn't really addressing double Destroyer lists because most places (including where I game) play at 2500 point level which limits you to one destroyer, and the above list is a 2500 point list. Also, a single destroyer isn't that difficult for Witch Elves to deal with due to Poison, which gets by its non-magic weapon protection. And if Hellebron is around with the assassin she should take it down in 1 turn without any problem.

But I agree that the artillery of Chaos Dwarves is a problem, which is why I rated them high.



You're very optimistic about killing blow.

Dual steam tanks. Too many wounds to kill quickly, KB is ineffective, 1+ save.

Sure, they'd take a minute to grind down. But Hellebron and the S6 Assassin should kill 1 per combat phase, which is pretty good for how many points they cost.


Dual Hellblaster. Nothing like killing 20-30 witches a turn w/S5 shooting.

I've also seen a few more Hockland's dotting lists lately. Even some people taking units of outriders (ah, 12 outriders, 36 shots).

Hellblasters are good, but aren't always reliable. Plus, most people don't take two of them. Long Rifles shouldn't be a problem with Lore of Life healing the odd wound that it manages. Outriders might be interesting to see. I usually don't see too many of them around with the local players. Of course they'd quickly melt to a charge by the Warlocks, but they could do some damage before hand.



I recently beat a Hellebron list w/LM simply by getting off Briana's Time Warp and killing her with simultaneous attacks. Of course, any one that can take Light could do that...

This could happen in any list though. And if you want to count on this, then give the Dark Elf side magic as well and give her a 4+ regen and Toughness 7.



I don't think you would like to end up facing a council of light list. Once you can drop either Speed of Light (WS10/I10) or Brianna's (+1A, ASF) on a unit, most of the WE threat goes away. If you can further stack Pha's (-1 to hit) it's gravy. TK also do pretty well with sniping simply by outdicing you on magic. Between 5ish channels, +d3 dice for a casket, and +d3 for a conduit casting you can outmagic pretty much any other list. The WE and Warlocks would also dislike getting hit with 7+ chariots either at once or sequential charges. There's 20 wounds simply in impact hits. SSC would take chunks out as would Warsphinx with a flame template.

Snipes aren't too big of a problem due to MR3 and Hellebron's +4 to dispel (better than a free dispel dice per dispel attempt). Timewarp is a big threat. However, the massed attacks of Witch Elves should still overcome anything that the Tomb Kings player has in combat. Maybe if you got multiple of those spells off, but that doesn't seem likely.

But I've perhaps underestimated the amount of templates. I forgot the warsphinx could get flaming for some reason. Then again, one thing the warsphinx hates is poison which is everything in the list.



Aside from plenty of redirectors and blog units (zombies), VC have some pretty scary characters and a few items that can augment them. A VC blender will have Red Fury, Quickblood, and Beguile for his powers. His magic gear will usually be a 4+ ward and either come combination of weapons, arcane items, and the Night Shroud. That last item is certain death for Hellebron and assassins (no magic weapons, ASL for enemies in base). I suspect a minimal frontage and a very deep skeleton/zombie unit, multiple ASF vampires to support the lord and magical support.

Vampire Counts are my main army, and have been for a while, so I feel that my analysis on them is better. A VC Blender Lord does NOT want to get into combat with Hellebron. He would probably kill her, but she'd kill him in response which is far worse for the Vampire Counts player.

Also, if the Witch Elf block engages zombies, nothing else on the vampire count side can engage it while this is happening. This is due to crumbling. Zombies/Skeletons give up far to much combat rez, which would just crumble any supporting units.

Nightshroud would be bad, but most Vampire Counts don't take it because most would rather have the Ogre Blade instead (since the 4++ is fairly mandatory). And even if Knight Shroud made an appearance, I'd put 11 attacks from two assassins against the Vampire Lord which should result in about 2 killing blows, rerolling Ward Saves.



I easily beat something very similar (no assassins, 30-40 witches plus Hellebron) with LM and HE. No issues with fairly standard all comers lists.

I doubt typical Bret, Empire, VC, or OK armies would have much trouble either.

I would argue that it wasn't similar at all if it only had 30-40 witches and no assassins. The key is having all the above for multiple reasons, along with the mage for magic support and the BSB for magic defense (ring of Hotek), plus the 67 Witch Elves for additional bodies.

Also, beating it with HE is expected, as I noted by saying that t hey have a "good chance" of winning.

Taking your comments into consideration, I have perhaps undervalued some armies. Maybe moving Brets and Tomb Kings (chariots and breath weapons would be good here) up into the poor category. But I don't see movement up into the decent or good.

naloth
03-11-2013, 02:03
I haven't forgotten about that. This is why the OTS assassin pops up next to her, for reasons such as this or other characters (such as DP).

She has 9 attacks on average = 2 poison + 6 hits = 7.833 wounds = 6.85 wounds after ward save (rerolled from OTS).

Sure, if you discount any magic items Brets can take and focus on the non-characters. Even so, I would suggest that you're asking a fair amount of return damage.



Remember that rerolling 1's to wound allows for a greater number of Killing Blows. And, OTS nearly negates a 6++, which two of the assassins (including the one holding it) can take advantage of. Also, as a minor point, it is 11 attacks not 10 from the non S6 assassins. This is around 2.5 wounds if you don't count in killing blow at all, which there should be 1-2 in there.

Counting Frenzy it's 15 attacks (4 S6, 6 S4, 5 S4), but only the last 5 benefit from poison since the other assassins (and Hellebron) use magic weapons. I also find it interesting that you while the OTS only affects models (not units) in BTB, you seem to be counting anyone that Hellebron or any assassin attacks?



I won't rerun your math on the witches because it looks fine at a glance. Just want to point out that you've undervalued Hellebron and the Assassins by about 4 wounds. This is 21 wounds for the dark elf side, and leaves 11 knights. Also, remember that anyone not ITP will be taking a fear test at -3 from Hellebron.

Actually anyone causing fear or ITP will be immune... Certainly the Errant Knights (Errantry banner, impulsive) and possibly the KotR. Even if not, I'm sure there will be a BSB lurking close by for a re-roll making it a fairly minor chance.



Also note that if you mention that Brets have good magic, so do the Dark Elves. This is why I don't typically run comparisons with magic, because otherwise you might as well make the Witch Elves have a 4+ Regen and Toughness 7 to account for their magic.

That's fine after you assume they will have 2+ turns of the Dweller Blow cast on them. Deathstars are much more vulnerable to a "killer spell" than multiple units as well as being good targets for buffs and debuffs.



I will give you though that a double charge by two lances would be quite dangerous. However, I think it is s till slanted towards the Dark Elf side unless there has been good success from the Trebuchets. The Horde has 7 ranks, so you have to kill quite a bit before they wouldn't be steadfast. And after Strength 5 is gone the Knights will end up getting ground down. But I could see advancing Brets up from "very little chance" to "poor" based on the above analysis.

The key wouldn't be breaking the WE on the charge. It would be killing points in characters, running away, rallying, then then doing it again when the odds are more favorable. Without the assassins or Hellebron, it's just an oversized unit of fragile witches.



Snipes aren't too big of a problem due to MR3 and Hellebron's +4 to dispel (better than a free dispel dice per dispel attempt). Timewarp is a big threat. However, the massed attacks of Witch Elves should still overcome anything that the Tomb Kings player has in combat. Maybe if you got multiple of those spells off, but that doesn't seem likely.

I don't think you play TK much? The key to their magic is that you generally have a scary Banishment (S7+) in the hands of a lvl 4 that adds +d3 to every cast. They benefit from the rolled power dice +d3 dice (casket) and usually 4+ channels (another 1 there). So you have a few "must dispel" spells, usually fairly high casting values to dispel against (2+d3+dice or 4+d3+dice), some annoying bound spells that can be used on 1d, and TK often have at least twice the power dice you have.



But I've perhaps underestimated the amount of templates. I forgot the warsphinx could get flaming for some reason. Then again, one thing the warsphinx hates is poison which is everything in the list.

Sure, it would be mostly a combo charge unit where you would have to decide if you want to use Hellebron or risk that 4ish witches could get enough poison to kill it.



Vampire Counts are my main army, and have been for a while, so I feel that my analysis on them is better. A VC Blender Lord does NOT want to get into combat with Hellebron. He would probably kill her, but she'd kill him in response which is far worse for the Vampire Counts player.

True, but also why (unless I had the Night Shroud) I would throw a ASF Vamp against her instead. She might kill him, but he stands a good chance of doing the same. Also, if you have a Corpse Cart around to grant ASF to everything life becomes rough for the WE.



Also, if the Witch Elf block engages zombies, nothing else on the vampire count side can engage it while this is happening. This is due to crumbling. Zombies/Skeletons give up far to much combat rez, which would just crumble any supporting units.

That's partially true... If you only engage with tons of zombies, it's fine, even if you have characters in the unit. If you have a big zombie unit you can absorb a charge and challenge with the character killing an enemy character, then either building them up again or just sacrifice the unit over the long term.



Nightshroud would be bad, but most Vampire Counts don't take it because most would rather have the Ogre Blade instead (since the 4++ is fairly mandatory). And even if Knight Shroud made an appearance, I'd put 11 attacks from two assassins against the Vampire Lord which should result in about 2 killing blows, rerolling Ward Saves.

And just how do you figure that? The VL attacks first and can easily target both Assassins since he would have 6 attacks with 2 CCWs. That's 3 attacks to each assassin (3+ to hit), wounding on 2's, for 2 dead assassins. For fun, he can take the 4 red fury attacks against the champ, Hellebron, or other WE. Really Hellebron isn't much of a threat (S4 now) so it's pretty unimportant who he targets. Even without the Shroud, 15 Assassin attacks (4 S6 +2S blade, 6 S4 +2A blade, 5 S4 dccw) the first 4 hit on 3's (no poison) so 1/3 chance of a killing blow. The next six hit on 3's so perhaps 2/3 chance of a killing blow. The last 4 hit on 3's so perhaps 1/3 again... On average if you have all 3 assassins going at just the lord, you only get about 1 KB and maybe 4 other wounds *if* he doesn't have the Shroud and doesn't challenge.



I would argue that it wasn't similar at all if it only had 30-40 witches and no assassins. The key is having all the above for multiple reasons, along with the mage for magic support and the BSB for magic defense (ring of Hotek), plus the 67 Witch Elves for additional bodies.

True, but you also have a "one unit" deathstar weaknesses. It simply can't be everywhere on the board and it will get mired, redirected, or simply shot while marching along whereas a more diverse army would have more units to deal with.

mypantsarefree3
05-11-2013, 00:08
And reward for the longest post goes to...


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grumbaki
07-11-2013, 03:32
Dwarf lord, rune of steel, rune of preservation, stone, spite, shieldbearers, great weapon.

Reduce her strength to 5, 1+ AS, 4++, immune to poison/KB, 4 str 6 attacks, 2 str 4 attacks.

She bounces and goes squish.

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If her str 10 is from a magic weapon, then banner of the world dragon her

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Wood elves can annoyance of nettlings her (6's to hit in challenge. Snipe champ first)

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WoC can throw a tzeench character at her. 3++ re-roll 1s. Then squish her.

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She sounds like a glass cannon. Find something tougher than she is strong and break the glass.

Methios
07-11-2013, 06:20
She sounds like a glass cannon. Find something tougher than she is strong and break the glass.

Most armies have nothing that is tougher then she is strong. There isnt a whole lot in warhammer that is tougher then potential 10 ASF str 10 hits with rerolls. That is exactly where this whole thread is about..........

2d6Dick
07-11-2013, 07:06
How about ramming a Gorebeast Chariot into her with its D6 str 5 Killing Blow impact hits?

grumbaki
07-11-2013, 07:55
Most armies have nothing that is tougher then she is strong. There isnt a whole lot in warhammer that is tougher then potential 10 ASF str 10 hits with rerolls. That is exactly where this whole thread is about..........

Dwarves, WOC, HE, WE. Not bad. And slayers from storm of chaos have deathblow, which would be great fun against her.

So 4 armies could theoretically go toe to toe.

Methios
07-11-2013, 13:23
Doubt it. I dont own dwarves or woc. But i can tell you nothing a HE or WE can bring will strike before she does. And she WILL kill the character even if he has a 4++
Only if there is something like a frostphoenix in the side you might stand a chance. Her ini is just to high. I would like to see you post a HE setup that can survive even 1 round of combat with her.

warplock
07-11-2013, 13:39
How about ramming a Gorebeast Chariot into her with its D6 str 5 Killing Blow impact hits?

How about killing D6 regular witch Elves and then removing your chariot after she attacks it? Impact hits are distributed as per shooting.

naloth
07-11-2013, 16:34
Doubt it. I dont own dwarves or woc. But i can tell you nothing a HE or WE can bring will strike before she does. And she WILL kill the character even if he has a 4++
Only if there is something like a frostphoenix in the side you might stand a chance. Her ini is just to high. I would like to see you post a HE setup that can survive even 1 round of combat with her.

*anything* with ASF strikes at the same time, so while she's going to get her attacks as well *any* HE unit can come and take swipes at her.

It looks like the primary problem here is a) treating ASF as going back to I order and b) assuming the OTS works on every model in an enemy unit instead of just models in BTB. Play ASF as simultaneous and OTS as not effecting anything not in BTB and it's a different ballgame.

warplock
07-11-2013, 16:53
Aren't High Elves like the best army to negate her. All of their troops strike at the same time as her so even a unit of 6 swordmasters will kill her with ease, plus the Frost Phoenix removes her ASF

Ayin
07-11-2013, 17:09
Not really.

Swordmasters and White Lions have both ASF and ASL, and no longer have the 'Speed of Asuryan' rule, so they strike at Initiative, meaning someone else with ASF will go before them.

warplock
07-11-2013, 17:33
Aargh, I knew it but haven't played against the new book so am still in Old High Elves mode!

naloth
07-11-2013, 17:42
Aren't High Elves like the best army to negate her. All of their troops strike at the same time as her so even a unit of 6 swordmasters will kill her with ease, plus the Frost Phoenix removes her ASF

technically SM lose ASF for having a great weapon... So take some PG, Silverhelms, Dragon Princes, or even great eagles w/ASF.

Ayin
07-11-2013, 18:41
No worries. i dropped High Elves in 7th and find it hard to keep track, I keep thinking Dark Elves have Hatred!

Romark
08-11-2013, 07:32
Aren't High Elves like the best army to negate her. All of their troops strike at the same time as her so even a unit of 6 swordmasters will kill her with ease, plus the Frost Phoenix removes her ASF

She's got Initiative 9 (or something). Not a lot in Warhammer will be striking at the same time as her.

To go on top of what a lot of other people have said, she is definitely a glass cannon, and their are many ways to get her. But be prepared to lose a hell of a lot of your unit before you can try. Disk Lord is, in my opinion, the best way to deal with her though.

warplock
08-11-2013, 09:20
She's got Initiative 9 (or something). Not a lot in Warhammer will be striking at the same time as her.

To go on top of what a lot of other people have said, she is definitely a glass cannon, and their are many ways to get her. But be prepared to lose a hell of a lot of your unit before you can try. Disk Lord is, in my opinion, the best way to deal with her though.

Anything with Always Strikes First which doesn't have a Great Weapon will strike at the same time as her though, regardless of her high Initiative.

Romark
08-11-2013, 09:28
Anything with Always Strikes First which doesn't have a Great Weapon will strike at the same time as her though, regardless of her high Initiative.

Of course... My bad.

I keep thinking ASF units strike at Initiative, because that should be the rule within the rule.