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stiggie
29-10-2013, 11:55
Hey guys, Making a fun list but has to be competitive as a lot of people who go to my gaming club go to tournaments..

2k:

Lvl4 Sorceress, Dispel Scroll

Master, Pegasus, Heavy armour, Shield, Sea Dragon Cloak, Cloak of Twilight, Lance

Death Hag, Couldron, BSB.

30x Witch elves, Full command, Banner of Swiftness

10x Crossbowmen

10x Crossbowmen

30x Executioners, Banner

4x Reaper Bolt throwers.

Rates/Fixes??

Romark
29-10-2013, 12:08
Don't expect to make friends. 30 Witches with Cauldron, 30 Executioners (with, I'm guessing, some save from the Level 4. Life? Shadow?), 4 Repeater Bolt Throwers and a Monster/War Machine hunting Master.

Yeah, Powerful, but not friendly.

But, if your going for strength... I'd, personally, get some more movement in there. Some Dark Riders. Warlocks maybe. Sacrifice some Executioners and take some Shades/Chariots?

You might find for 2k you may be a little outdone on the magic front also. So i think the warlocks (or, a level 2) could be worth serious consideration.

stiggie
29-10-2013, 12:13
hey, cheers for the quick reply.

the people I usually go against take power lists, we do have a great laugh while doing so though :3.

I'm unsure what lore to go for on the sorceress, was debating dark magic or life.

also, with the executioners/couldron/witches i have very little points to play with, during tests the one does ok, obvs nothing special but does it's job. when I bump it up to 2.4k I plan on adding 2 units of 5 warlocks and a lvl 2 though.

Romark
29-10-2013, 12:22
If everyone's powergaming, fair enough. Personally, i like a bit of fluff :p

For the Lore, it's a difficult one. Who are you playing? Might help in choosing a lore. As it is, I'd normally go Dark, but seeing as the Executioners are running around, basically, naked i'd chose one that has something in to help them. Depending on who your playing, Metal could work. Glittering Robe, plus one of the best No. 6 and Sig spells around (as long as you aren't playing no armored folk, obviously). Of course you always have Life... But, really.

When you bump up adding both multiple Warlocks and a lvl 2 may be jumping from one side to the other ;) Maybe a couple of Warlocks and a different BSB? Also, with higher points i'd think more about something to deal with War Machines quickly. Great Weapon Shades... Beautiful.

Shadoer
29-10-2013, 12:24
Hey guys, Making a fun list but has to be competitive as a lot of people who go to my gaming club go to tournaments..

2k:

Lvl4 Sorceress, Dispel Scroll

Master, Pegasus, Heavy armour, Shield, Sea Dragon Cloak, Cloak of Twilight, Lance

Death Hag, Couldron, BSB.

30x Witch elves, Full command, Banner of Swiftness

10x Crossbowmen

10x Crossbowmen

30x Executioners, Banner

4x Reaper Bolt throwers.

Rates/Fixes??

My thoughts

1. You really shouldn't put your BSB on the Cauldron of Blood. Fact is the way the Cauldron works now, any cannon or piece of artillery that hits it will auto hit your Death Hag. So no Look Out Sir rolls, your Death Hag will get plastered by cannons and rocks pretty fast. I'd suggest another character to be the bsb or change your Master on the Pegasus into one.

2. Moving up your big blocks of Witch Elves and Executioners is going to be problematic. Right now there's nothing to cover their flanks or remove chaff so odds are they are going to be pulled and sent into charge redirectors. I suppose you can use your considerable shooting to remove those obstacles, however I'd suggest investing in some other options. Perhaps look at running some small units of Dark Riders?

3. There's some important info missing here. Like what Lore is your Sorceress taking and what upgrade your Death Hag is going to take (remember you have to choose one, you can't leave it out).

stiggie
29-10-2013, 13:46
it's mostly against high elves, dark elves and chaos dwarves with a bit of skaven, WoC, Bretonians and wood elves.

and 1) Yeah that is a problem, but I'm quite torn between the 18" re-roll on a cauldron which will get all units. or the 12" on a pegasus which has a habit of fleeing haha. either way I think it'll die inpromptue but while it's on a cauldron it'll have more purpose? can definately try it both ways though.

2) dark riders did seem an option, I just went with what I have atm and thought bolt throwers are better universally and crossbowmen will be deployed on flanks also. if it fails after a few games I could drop crossbowmen for dark riders or something??

3) unsure in regards to the lore, leaning towards Life. and the death hag upgrade is optional not mandatory.

Shadoer
29-10-2013, 14:02
it's mostly against high elves, dark elves and chaos dwarves with a bit of skaven, WoC, Bretonians and wood elves.

and 1) Yeah that is a problem, but I'm quite torn between the 18" re-roll on a cauldron which will get all units. or the 12" on a pegasus which has a habit of fleeing haha. either way I think it'll die inpromptue but while it's on a cauldron it'll have more purpose? can definately try it both ways though.

2) dark riders did seem an option, I just went with what I have atm and thought bolt throwers are better universally and crossbowmen will be deployed on flanks also. if it fails after a few games I could drop crossbowmen for dark riders or something??

3) unsure in regards to the lore, leaning towards Life. and the death hag upgrade is optional not mandatory.

Huh you're right, the upgrade for the Witch Elves isn't mandatory. Must have been thinking of something else.

Anyways, if you are looking for a lore I'd actually recommend Metal for this list. You have a lot of attacks that deal well with toughness but will have trouble getting through things with a high armor save. Metal should help a lot to deal with things like Monsterous Cavalry, Steam Tanks, and Warriors of Chaos.

Rakariel
29-10-2013, 14:29
Definitly a fluffy Khanite list, very powerfull aswell but sure as hell not friendly ;).
But then again you said that your meta does include lots of other hardcorish lists so it should be fine really. I like the setup but also have to agree that there should be some chaff to not get outdeployed all too easily. If you are afraid that your BSB gets shot off the cauldron, cut back on the executioners, use 15 spears etc. and put a master BSB inside which is setup behind the welfs.

Emissary
29-10-2013, 14:34
I agree on the BSB. Even a volley of arrows could pick her off the cauldron. I'd just take a master BSB with a shield, HA and SDC and stick him in the executioners. You should be fine then.

Sir Didymus
29-10-2013, 20:09
I'd ditch the cauldron BSB and divide the witches into units of 15. Witches get their strength from the first rank, not static CR or horde formation. Add a mindrazor and they'll go through anything.

I'd use the points from the BSB on either more witches or great weapon shades.

stiggie
29-10-2013, 21:41
the two units of 15 would be shot to shreds without their save and being in low numbers though?

Sir Didymus
29-10-2013, 22:44
Whatever that can kill 2 units of 15 Witches can just as easily shoot one unit of 30, so thats a rather poor argument. You can factor in the ward provided by the cauldron, but those points can be put to better use doubling the number of witches.

stiggie
30-10-2013, 10:08
it's the ward save, impact hits, re-rolls and extra attacks from the bound spell.

minus cauldron = points for 27 more witch elves

57 witch elves (1 unit of 30 one of 27) = 50+ 47 attacks (97)

Hitting on 4's = 48.5 hits, (48.5 re-rolls getting 24.25 more) 12 of them being poison.

wounding on 5's = 20.25 wounds (40.5 misses gets 6.75 re-rolls gets 2.25 more) = 20.25 + 12 + 2.25 = 34.81 wounds

against average armour 5 that ='s 23.2 wounds
Cauldron unit:

D6+1 impact hits = 3.5 wounding on 2's = 2.91
death hag = 3 + 1 (2hw) + 1 (frenzy) + 1 (fury) = 6 hitting on 3's = 4 re-rolling 2 = 5 hits. 1 being poison. 4's to wound = 2 wounds. +1 from re-roll's = 4 in total

crew = 4 attacks each (1 + 2hw + frenzy + fury) = 4 hits 1.3 being poison. 2 hit's from re-rolls. 5's to wound = 1.6. +1.4 from re-rolls = 4.3

witch elves = 42 attacks (front row = 1+2hw+frenzy+fury - space for cauldron) = 7 poison + 14 hits, (+3.5 poison + 7 hits from re-rolls) = 7 wounds + 4.6 from re-roll's = 22.1

= cauldron unit gets 33.31 wounds

against average armour 5 =' 14.7 + 2.8 + 2.91 + 3.3 = 23.7

so without cauldron = 23.2 and with cauldron = 23.7

only difference being the saves/terror/MR(1), or the 2nd unit of witch elves getting a flank charge.

Romark
30-10-2013, 11:04
it's the ward save, impact hits, re-rolls and extra attacks from the bound spell.

minus cauldron = points for 27 more witch elves

57 witch elves (1 unit of 30 one of 27) = 50+ 47 attacks (97)

Hitting on 4's = 48.5 hits, (48.5 re-rolls getting 24.25 more) 12 of them being poison.

wounding on 5's = 20.25 wounds (40.5 misses gets 6.75 re-rolls gets 2.25 more) = 20.25 + 12 + 2.25 = 34.81 wounds

against average armour 5 that ='s 23.2 wounds
Cauldron unit:

D6+1 impact hits = 3.5 wounding on 2's = 2.91
death hag = 3 + 1 (2hw) + 1 (frenzy) + 1 (fury) = 6 hitting on 3's = 4 re-rolling 2 = 5 hits. 1 being poison. 4's to wound = 2 wounds. +1 from re-roll's = 4 in total

crew = 4 attacks each (1 + 2hw + frenzy + fury) = 4 hits 1.3 being poison. 2 hit's from re-rolls. 5's to wound = 1.6. +1.4 from re-rolls = 4.3

witch elves = 42 attacks (front row = 1+2hw+frenzy+fury - space for cauldron) = 7 poison + 14 hits, (+3.5 poison + 7 hits from re-rolls) = 7 wounds + 4.6 from re-roll's = 22.1

= cauldron unit gets 33.31 wounds

against average armour 5 =' 14.7 + 2.8 + 2.91 + 3.3 = 23.7

so without cauldron = 23.2 and with cauldron = 23.7

only difference being the saves/terror/MR(1), or the 2nd unit of witch elves getting a flank charge.

Now make both unit's slightly smaller and stick a Death Hag with Witchbrew in one of them... Bonus points all round!

stiggie
30-10-2013, 16:39
Then you have to drop 11 models (34 attacks) to get 6 attacks, give a unit an extra 9 but make the unit fail fear tests on a 5 instead of an 8.

All it would kill is re directors and still have no save etc.

Sir Didymus
30-10-2013, 17:11
only difference being the saves/terror/MR(1), or the 2nd unit of witch elves getting a flank charge.

Theres a huuuge difference between facing one threat or two. One can be diverted/tarpitted, or you face it with something equally hard hitting of your own. Facing two threats is harder to counter.

Witches main strength lies in their first rank of 3 poisonous attacks/model, additional ranks contribute very little for their points cost. So my point is basically to maximise your frontage by having more units. Who cares if they lose a few or run into something steadfast, a simple hex or augment spell will achieve so much, due to the sheer number of attacks.

stiggie
30-10-2013, 18:13
Which is why there's a unit of executioners also.

The cauldron is worth it in my eyes and won't drop it for extra witch elves as it just ruins their survivability and lowers damage output however it's put.

Sir Didymus
30-10-2013, 21:24
But following that Logic, you should just spend all your points on a horde of witches.

stiggie
30-10-2013, 22:33
... last time I checked

'won't drop the cauldron for more witch elves'

is the opposite to

'spend all the points on witches'

Please don't reply on this, your idiocy offends me.

decent rates/fixes only plz

Kaim
30-10-2013, 23:35
Drop a bolt or two, drop one shards to get some loose points, buff up the other shards and get 2x Dark Riders and one unit of Warlocks and you have almost a perfect CoB list.

stiggie
31-10-2013, 00:06
I worked that out, adding 55 points too much before buffing crossbowmen (when taking out 2 bolt throwers). I do really want some warlocks in but it seems I can only really fit them in 2.4k without removing bolt throwers etc (which seem lolzy atm)

Sir Didymus
31-10-2013, 07:57
... your idiocy offends me.

Well then, that statement only reflects back on yourself, poorly that is.

But I won't force tactics upon you, when you prefer the impregnable deathstar approach. Its a different playstyle and safe to play - as long as you don't get hit by #6 spells, stone throwers and what not.

stiggie
31-10-2013, 11:35
'sir diddymus' please stop taking the post off topic.

you tell me to add more witch elves, I say it works out better for me if I don't. so your counter opinion is to drop everything in my list and just take a cauldron with a massive unit of witch elves. because under your logic, me saying 'im not adding more witch elves' is the same as me saying 'I want as many witch elves as possible irregardless of how legal the list is' .

that's not any form of rate or fix, thats just childishness and a waste of time for me and anyone else who reads this and genuinely wants to contribute and help.

anyway. back on track.

I played yesturday against a dark elf tourney player, used lore of life and tabled him turn 5. albeit getting first turn and killing 11 of his executioners and his lvl4 scorceress with dwellers helped a lot but the life spells did provide a lot of support where needed (namely toughness 7 executioners against toughness 3 ones and a toughness 10 cauldron) so will stick with life.

Kaim
31-10-2013, 17:07
Yes I actually play with a similar build 2.4-2.5k but with 2x Dark Riders and 2x Warlocks keeping 4 Bolts. With a Cloaked Master BSB on the pegasus. Quite awesome tbh. But for 2k you really need some Riders or Shades at least. Also Warlocks are a must have now, they are simply that good.